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Topic: K.I.S.S. me or hit me!
Message: Posted by: Dr Desmond Jones (Aug 12, 2007 05:21PM)
So I read all the rumors about this latest...

OK, let me back this up.

I perform for real world people. I do not have a camera crew of 5-6 guys. Nor do I have stooges. Now when I perform I want there to be a ground shattering effect that happens within the audience. In fact if they could help bring about this effect, I would be HAPPY!

Now everything I do takes practice. I have several apprenticeships behind me and I can perform a pass, a double, etc. better than most. In fact I had my ex wife blindfold me for years. ALL IN THE NAME OF ENTERTAINMENT! So I don't mind learning and executing moves and techniques as long as the effect is earth shattering.

My question to you is:
What happened to simple and direct plots and effects? Uri Geller was simple and direct. So are Lesley, Salem, and even Channing.

So I have to ask why on Buddhas good green earth do we (the Café) over inflate videos and ebooks that teach over inflated plots such as Diplopia where I cant even begin to care about the effect because I am lost in a series of moves which makes me just want to run off and cry!

Or how about Tea with Alice and Jack. Where the salesman has you believing that he is super psychic but in the video you see him walking like circus freak on dry wall stilts blindfolded. that's not psychic kids! that's circus sideshow b.s. Not even all that original. You want to see a good blindfold routine go get 10,000 us and hire Ross Johnson who uses standard methods to blindfold but entertains by appearing to be really psychic. The plots have a beginning middle and end. He interacts with his audience never reducing them to an equation and alpha maleness.

And excuse me for not noticing any worth while information from my $40 but J ack has brought us a complete course in rehashed card tricks! CARD TRICKS! How is this of use to anyone but a casual hobbyist. The video was shot in his home. Nice production values! Its a joke!

Next we go see J ack perform where he opens with the linking rings. Linking Rings? You don't have to be Craig Browning to wonder why a "paranormalist" is opening with the rings! Why do you give him all this credit? Wasn't he making balloon animals on his website for a long time? that's demeaning to mentalist and psychic entertainers everywhere. Why not dress up in clown make up and perform a blindfold routine or mental epic next.

What has happened to the state of mentalism?

Mentalism today... Hypnosis tomorrow...

Final Thoughts:

Keep the performing simple. Learn the basics and find what you want to do. If you claim to be a mentalist read minds. Tell me to think of a card and then have me flip over a card that you just put in my hand and have it be that card.

You want to be a paranormalist then teach me to be paranormal. Show stigmata. Show me mind control. Show me a ghost. Don't show me a card trick in your kitchen.

This has been a rant from your truly!
Viva la elitests!
And if you don't know who Ross Johnson or Ken Weber is then you aren't elite!
Message: Posted by: DJM (Aug 12, 2007 05:25PM)
Hear hear!
Message: Posted by: Drewmcadam (Aug 12, 2007 05:29PM)
Hey Doc,

I’m with you!

KISS is a formula that would keep us all on solid ground. Sometimes we get too caught up with convoluted methodology. Simple stuff lets us concentrate on the presentation, which is 90% of mentalism, without worrying about the intricate technology or convoluted mechanics. The participant thinks of something. You struggle to get it, and lo! You do!

It’s always interesting to see tyro mentalists set out, reading everything, performing a hundred different effects, getting caught up in the intricacies of the mechanics, arguing on internet forums, then bit-by-bit stripping everything right back to basics as they turn pro.

The Doc talks sense.

Drew
Message: Posted by: Dr Desmond Jones (Aug 12, 2007 05:34PM)
Thank you gentlemen.

I always thought we were supposed to be actors playing the parts of magicians playing the parts of psychics?

In other words:
We should use acting to strengthen our performance.

As Ken Weber states:
The stronger the magic the less patter is needed. BUT! It can be strengthen imho with dialogue and acting.

We are playing a role so lets go play it. Why mix messages with complicated moves and magic tricks? Create magic don't create an image of a guy doing an old magic trick that you saw your uncle do.

Magic is also in the details. The more details and thought that goes into something: The simpler the outcome as you have practiced for EVERY contingency!
Message: Posted by: Sidney (Aug 12, 2007 05:35PM)
I'm for any trick that gives Jack an excuse to perform with his shirt off.
I don't care if it's pom pom pole or hippy hoppy rabbits or paranormal card tricks.

Sid
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Aug 12, 2007 05:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-12 18:34, Dr Desmond Jones wrote:
...
I always thought we were supposed to be actors playing the parts of magicians playing the parts of psychics?

In other words:
We should use acting to strengthen our performance.

As Ken Weber states:
The stronger the magic the less patter is needed. BUT! It can be strengthen imho with dialogue and acting.

We are playing a role so lets go play it. Why mix messages with complicated moves and magic tricks? Create magic don't create an image of a guy doing an old magic trick that you saw your uncle do.
[/quote]
Some of us don't play, well maybe sometimes we do. When I'm on stage sometimes I'm a psychic playing the part of an actor playing the part of a psychic. This keeps the magicians and mentalist from attacking my show.

Magic folk are an omnivorous lot that feeds on their own but prefers the flavor of something different whenever possible.
Message: Posted by: Pete Legend (Aug 12, 2007 05:42PM)
Hey Doc:

Everyone has a right to their opinion and fair points! In relation to Jim's work I think its great. I couldn't give a rats behind if he makes balloons or opens up his act using linking rings...I'm interested only in the information that I purchased from him.I enjoy his thinking and consider his pieces to be very entertaining and strong. I don't perform with cards though his idea's obviously as you know can be adapted for other things(not all but most). In regards to production values it's not why I buy magic related material...

I like your "Final Thoughts" :) I'm working on it! ;)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 12, 2007 05:52PM)
Is that you Mark Lewis?

Canasta and Horwitz for me kept things simple, but kept things impossible and magical...they're some the best to learn from in my book...

with canasta especially, you neither have to be a magician nor a mentalist...

steer well clear of labels in my opinion..apart from the ones that say poison...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 12, 2007 07:33PM)
WOW...That's pretty strong stuff about Jack and Alice's Tea Party. I'm sure that you can get your money refunded if you think it's that bad....but by your description, I'm not sure you've seen the entire DVD or been involved on the Forum. A great deal of information is there and Not on the DVD...but you would know that if you owned it. If you don't, then you are blowing smoke.....and I guess unfortunately Drew too!
Message: Posted by: coupcoupdaddy (Aug 12, 2007 07:41PM)
I want to hear more about all those years your ex-wife blindfolded you.

--Isso Liwok
Foreign Correspondent
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 12, 2007 07:45PM)
K.I.S.S.

Killing in Silent Solitude
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Aug 12, 2007 07:52PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-12 20:33, Slim King wrote:
WOW...That's pretty strong stuff about Jack and Alice's Tea Party. I'm sure that you can get your money refunded if you think it's that bad....but by your description, I'm not sure you've seen the entire DVD or been involved on the Forum. A great deal of information is there and Not on the DVD...but you would know that if you owned it. If you don't, then you are blowing smoke.....and I guess unfortunately Drew too!
[/quote]

Slim:

I read Drew's comments as towards the Keep It Simple philosophy, not Jim's work.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 12, 2007 07:58PM)
Perhaps he'll clarify his statement? I see that about half the original post is about TEA so the "I'M WITH YOU!" might have confused me.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Aug 12, 2007 08:54PM)
Ya I am going to have to disagree here. I actually find it funny that you think Jims work isn't simple. :) Why because you start and it could have 2 or 3 outcomes? You have to just roll with where the experience takes you? The method is beyond SIMPLE and leaves the entire thing up to acting. To me your whole entire post condradicts itself. You say keep is simple then say Jims DVD is not simple. You seemed confused on that in my opinion.

oh and P.S. I love the moto of KISS
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 12, 2007 09:20PM)
For the mundane...KISS is fine for the S people. But the greatest things in life are NOT simple. The most fantastic things are complicated. The most amazing things that I have seen and performed are extremely tedious and time consuming. Perhaps the everyday concepts are easy but many things deserve lots of work and effort. Blood, Sweat and Tears. Those adept at it may make it LOOK simple, but this is not the case. I guess I don't agree with those who call themselves THE ELITE.
Time will tell :)
Message: Posted by: mindshrink (Aug 12, 2007 09:51PM)
I havent heard about Johnson or Weber.
It is absolutely necessary(and I agree with u) to keep it simple.I have heard about some of the effects but do not know much about them (and not bothered to find out either) for the simple reason.. they are expensive by my standards(check out $ and Indian currency rates).
It is necessary to concentrate on the presentation and that's possible when the technique is simple!
I am with you on this Doc.
Message: Posted by: burst (Aug 12, 2007 10:18PM)
While I am a firm believer in the keep it simple philosophy, I don't see how Jim's work goes against this. The blindfold stilt bit was a publicity stunt. Key word is stunt. It's not an act in the traditional sense of the word. It doesn't need a beginning, middle and end. And if you put some thought into it, it still does. The fact that he was able to build tension while doing a blindfold bit should be a lesson to you. The only other time I've the use of a blindfold and emotional involvement was done by Derren Brown, his team, and his access to a lot of money to make it happen. Jim did it with a chunk of change. Another lesson.

As far as his effects and presentations, if you think they are complicated and/or convoluted, then that is your opinion and I won't bother trying to change it.

Mentalist either like card tricks or they don't. I love them and that's why I use them. Maybe it's because I got into magic with cards, maybe it's because, if performed properly, they impact my audience extremely well. But it's all up to the performer.

I've heard of a particular mentalist opening up his act with the linking rings, but it wasn't Jim. From my conversation with Jim, and I could be wrong with this, but I don't think he would ever be caught doing this. It's just not part of the experience that he would want to create at a show of his. I don't know where you've seen him perform this, it's not in either of his DVD projects.

Which brings me to production values. The image is good and he is easily heard. I don't care where it is filmed. If you have ever done any type of film project you would know that it can be very complicated to do it elsewhere, and costly. He's selling them for about 80 dollars (I wish I got it for 40, what a deal you got!), he obviously wouldn't make his money back if he were to make the project large scale.

Keep it simple is for the perspective of the audience, not the performer. Diplopia, to keep with your references, does require quite of bit of effort for the performer to pull off effectively, but in the view of the audience everything is simple and easily understood. I simply do not get how the plot of Diplopia is overly inflated at all.

It's probably the closest thing to the card trick you say you want to see/learn, but with the added kick that they got to read your mind. Jim's version of card stab, to me, meets your requirements even more. With that now in mind, I really don't understand why you don't like it.

I know the names you mention, but I'm not elite at all, nor do I ever care to be.

/paul.f
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Aug 12, 2007 10:18PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-12 18:21, Dr Desmond Jones wrote:
So I read all the rumors about this latest...

OK, let me back this up.

I perform for real world people. I do not have a camera crew of 5-6 guys. Nor do I have stooges. Now when I perform I want there to be a ground shattering effect that happens within the audience. In fact if they could help bring about this effect, I would be HAPPY!

Now everything I do takes practice. I have several apprenticeships behind me and I can perform a pass, a double, etc. better than most. In fact I had my ex wife blindfold me for years. ALL IN THE NAME OF ENTERTAINMENT! So I don't mind learning and executing moves and techniques as long as the effect is earth shattering.

My question to you is:
What happened to simple and direct plots and effects? Uri Geller was simple and direct. So are Lesley, Salem, and even Channing.

So I have to ask why on Buddhas good green earth do we (the Café) over inflate videos and ebooks that teach over inflated plots such as Diplopia where I cant even begin to care about the effect because I am lost in a series of moves which makes me just want to run off and cry!

Or how about Tea with Alice and Jack. Where the salesman has you believing that he is super psychic but in the video you see him walking like circus freak on dry wall stilts blindfolded. that's not psychic kids! that's circus sideshow b.s. Not even all that original. You want to see a good blindfold routine go get 10,000 us and hire Ross Johnson who uses standard methods to blindfold but entertains by appearing to be really psychic. The plots have a beginning middle and end. He interacts with his audience never reducing them to an equation and alpha maleness.

And excuse me for not noticing any worth while information from my $40 but J ack has brought us a complete course in rehashed card tricks! CARD TRICKS! How is this of use to anyone but a casual hobbyist. The video was shot in his home. Nice production values! Its a joke!

Next we go see J ack perform where he opens with the linking rings. Linking Rings? You don't have to be Craig Browning to wonder why a "paranormalist" is opening with the rings! Why do you give him all this credit? Wasn't he making balloon animals on his website for a long time? that's demeaning to mentalist and psychic entertainers everywhere. Why not dress up in clown make up and perform a blindfold routine or mental epic next.

What has happened to the state of mentalism?

Mentalism today... Hypnosis tomorrow...

Final Thoughts:

Keep the performing simple. Learn the basics and find what you want to do. If you claim to be a mentalist read minds. Tell me to think of a card and then have me flip over a card that you just put in my hand and have it be that card.

You want to be a paranormalist then teach me to be paranormal. Show stigmata. Show me mind control. Show me a ghost. Don't show me a card trick in your kitchen.

This has been a rant from your truly!
Viva la elitests!
And if you don't know who Ross Johnson or Ken Weber is then you aren't elite!
[/quote]

There are so many flaws in this post, it is hard to know where to begin . . .

I'll start by asking who you are Dr. so and so :)

I'll agree with keeping things simple, sure. BUT, "Diplopia" a series of moves??? Sightless Vision NOT paranormal? What planet are you from???

I'm glad everything you do takes practice, doesn't most (if not ALL) of it? I would hope so! Also, I guess you'll never know if your pass is better than mine, because you won't SEE mine ;) I'd like you to justify/prove the statement that your card technique is better than most . . . how does one back up such a claim?

Also, I'm not too sure that knowing who Ross Johnson and Ken Weber is makes one elite. Based on your post, it obviously does not. I've not heard of Johnson before, but Weber's book is good. If YOU understood the book, perhaps you would understand Jim's Linking Rings. (?) And that's IF he does use them, which I don't know . . .

If you do happen to own Tea (doubtful, probably borrowed it) and wish to part with it, go right ahead and PM me.

Regards,
Jerome.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Aug 12, 2007 11:02PM)
Jerome

Do you really want to engage in arguments with ghosts? Hint: :subtrunk:
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Aug 12, 2007 11:13PM)
Tony,

Gotcha!
Message: Posted by: ElliottB (Aug 12, 2007 11:15PM)
I'm confused, but what else is new?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 12, 2007 11:41PM)
G.H.O.S.T...... What the....? An Elite ghost....a ghostly elitist? I too am confused :) Again.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Aug 12, 2007 11:52PM)
Slim

The guy created his account on August 10th, his first post was an unsolicited flame on Jim. This has continued. He has also complained that he does not like the Tea DVD. There are only 2 places the link for Tea was located, this and one other forum. Most members there are members here, or are not for a few reasons.

The person misusing Desmond Jones' name has another name that he uses in the magic forums. One has to wonder why he did not use that name when he began his flames? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but why hide under someone else’s name to post it.

(Desmond Jones is the much respected former head of the Desmond School of Mime in London and is one of the foremost authorities on the art.)

Posting in this fashion, he is a ghost in the machine, and can vanish and reappear under his other identity.
Message: Posted by: espmagic (Aug 13, 2007 12:04AM)
Doc -

To address your first comments: yes, those magicians who like to buy "stuff" need much feeding.The good news is that this attitude means that they will be preoccupied looking for "newer" methods to your effects, and you will fool them. The bad news is that you may be bored at your local magician/hobbyist meeting, where everyone is showing how well they can ********** with their new trick/method.

As to J ack/J im, I think he's a good performer, and a good salesman. He has an interesting twist on "old" or "common" themes, which should make us think a bit (especially if you are selling to the magician/hobbyist). And, truth be told, our measure of success is to be working, no? (Right, Drew?). So, if he is working...


Lee
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 13, 2007 12:10AM)
I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw (My Mom always says that :) )
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Aug 13, 2007 12:52AM)
I've always heard/said: "'I see', said the blind man to his deaf wife."

s
Message: Posted by: Andini (Aug 13, 2007 01:03AM)
I agree in a combined point made by the Doc and Jerome. I have [i]always[/i] been a firm believer in simplicity in magic (and Mentalism). Too often do I see tricks written up that are outrageously convoluted and would confuse a spectator every time. And while the Doc's post went on to bash some of our own, his points are valid. While misinformed and slightly delusional, he was striving to make us know what we are and what we're trying to do. If you want to be an all-around entertainer chap, then do your myriad magic tricks. But if you want people to see you as a psychic, a paranormalist, a psychological illusionist, a fraudulent spiritualist...stick to that character! When I saw Jim's video of the balloons, it just didn't feel right. And I don't doubt that it's entertaining, but when you're trying to sell the image of a paranormalist, I just don't know if balloons are going to do that for you. I'm all for comic relief, but if your character's dark and your material's dark, then you might want to opt for more dark humor...not Happy the Clown's Balloon Bag of Fun.

So, Mr. Dr. Desmond, (if you're still here), I agree with your overall point, and I think it's worth other readers taking the time to understand the big picture.
Message: Posted by: ALEXANDRE (Aug 13, 2007 01:24AM)
In my opinion it matters not how difficult or simple an effect is, do your job and entertain! If that's done, who cares how hard it was for you to pull it off. You can "act" either way. If you're not lazy.

Besides, memorizing might be hard for some and easy for others, among other things.

Cards in mentalism? I absolutely love them, and I don't use them as "playing cards" but as convenient ways to do my various "psychic" and "paranormal" demonstrations. People love it. In fact, after my show later this year, I'm thinking of doing a mentalism show featuring just cards, videotaping the performance, reactions, etc, then giving the dvd away or posting it in public so people will stop once and for all with this nonsense about not using cards in mentalism.

J ack? The more people think he sucks and refuse to use his work, the happier I am.
Message: Posted by: burst (Aug 13, 2007 02:24AM)
After a little bit of time surfing through Jim's site, I found the balloon video.

I think it's great. Everyone involved seemed extremely entertained. And it made sense for the atmosphere. I talked to Docc Hilford a couple years ago, I know he does/did a balloon act at times as well.

In regard to what I said about the experience Jim wants to create. . . goes to show how little I know. Just more proof how I'm not elite, I guess.

/paul.f
Message: Posted by: Looch (Aug 13, 2007 04:59AM)
Anyone who has heard of me knows I'm all for Simple & Direct plots and mechanics. For some of my up to date material I have tried to stick to this ideal but at times it can be difficult. I'm working on a routine at the moment that in terms of preparation is a one off nightmare but in performance I've tried to keep it as simple as possible for the performer.

I've never seen any of J ack or Jim's DVD's so cannot comment, but the vast majority of people here seem to like them so that surely says something?
Message: Posted by: Malchat (Aug 13, 2007 05:09AM)
Simplicity takes mastery. Mastery only comes from studying complexity.

[i]"At first I thought a punch was just a punch, then I realised a punch is not just a punch, now I know a punch is just a punch."[/i] - Bruce Lee

[i]"Can a beginner do magic in the simple way that long experience teaches? Ironically, doing magic the simple way is actually very hard."[/i] - Tommy Wonder

By the way, Ted Lesley performed the exact same plot as Paul Vigil's 'Diplopia.' Whatever the method, the audience understands the miracle just fine.
Message: Posted by: Looch (Aug 13, 2007 05:24AM)
Great quotes malchat
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 13, 2007 05:38AM)
That's rather zen buddhist of you malchat...very nice...

do all as if doing nothing...
Message: Posted by: Jim-Callahan (Aug 13, 2007 09:49AM)
Let me say I think many here confuse effect with presentation.
The effect is not the presentation.

Effect is the simple part it is the ‘KISS’, but I like to do more than just KISS.
(That’s why Chicks dig me.)

I am a Paranormalist, not just a Magician or Mind reader, Balloon guy, Numerologist, Musician, Paranormal Researcher, Medium, Composer, Film Maker, Etc.

No reason to conform to what another person thinks my show and or presentations should be for the simple reason that what I do works very well for me.

In my opinion K.I.S.S. is one of the worst ideas ever applied to this art.
(Or I should clarify the misapplication of the principal)
It is in large part responsible for this field spiraling down to the level it is now.
Of course in many peoples opinion it is good to have that lower playing field then one not need be concerned with scripting, acting, subtext, story line, character development.
All of the tuff stuff that makes compelling and believable theater and or reality.

And yes even “BLIND QUEST’ the blindfold walk has all of that!
(We can discuss that but do not see no reason to.)

But why do so many like the bar at the low level it is now?
Well because any guy or gal that can pick up a mass marketed DVD can go out and become a mentalist just like he became a magician.

I deplore seeing a performer walk right out tell some one to think of a number and gosh miracle of miracles it is written on a little folded scrap of paper.
Stop the clocks and call it a day because it just does not get any better than that.

And admit it many here do think it is over the top high theatrical production to open their act with Bank Night.
I would hang myself in a closet before I would do that.

The balloon presentation I do is placed right before my heaviest presentations.
(I will not explain why because I see no reason to.)

The linking rings I open with at corporate events is to set applause cues and to set the method of delivering autobiographical information.
If you don’t know what that is all about it makes no difference.

My two DVD’s offer new applications and advancements in the field.
However I do understand one must be of a certain level of development in this art to understand and appreciate the content.

I would say almost all of those who have purchased these works are performers of the pro or semi-pro level.

The first poster appears to not have understood over fifty percent of the information on the DVD. But he can do a good pass and double lift I see and the leads me to believe he should possibly be purchasing DVD’s from L&L and not my material.

Strange he would be hiding behind a false name here.

Well anyway I have 10 copies left (And those on the forum if they do not have the first one will be able to purchase SOMETHING for a short time)

I have added the warning from the advertisement from my products to the bottom of this post as an explanation of why the first poster might be having a hard time understanding the material and the responses to it.
(Just because you purchase dance shoes does not make you a dancer when you show up at dance class the first day.)


J ack

H.O.A-X

*From advertisment page*
This DVD will be my final instructional DVD for those pursuing the art of mentalism performance. I believe that between the two discs one has at their disposal the tools I use to create my presentations and to augment and elevate their own work.
Please note that like the SOMETHING DVD this DVD is not intended for magicians or those presenting mental magic.
Message: Posted by: CAROLINI (Aug 13, 2007 11:34AM)
To paraphrase what a wise man once said, " a good performer can tell his audience to go to Hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip". If I have never learned anything else in my 77 years I definitely learned to K.I.S.S..
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 13, 2007 11:48AM)
[quote]
Let me say I think many here confuse effect with presentation.
The effect is not the presentation.
[/quote]

J ack,

Those were almost the EXACT same words I was going to type (until I saw you type them). So, since you read my mind and typed out what I wanted to say BEFORE I said it (guess you really are a paranormalist, see everybody, PROOF!), I will discuss something related.

The original poster, who I would love to hear from again, made a statement saying "a series of moves which makes me just want to run off and cry".

Well, run off and cry then but, when you do it, please remember that the thing that the audience remembers aren't all the moves you do to do the effect, it is the effect AS PRESENTED that they remember. Something can be insanely complicated to perform but can come off as very direct.

Next, I am actually going to take issue with the KISS approach. I won't go into too much detail because I truly feel everybody should buy Strong Magic by Darwin Ortiz and read it for themselves but:

there is a difference between simplicity and clarity. A trick can be simple but unclear but it can also be clear without being simple. Simplicity is not a goal unto itself, whether or not their are cute little acronyms that you can use.

Personally, I don't use anything from J ack's DVDs as he does them, but I have started using the ideas and principles and I am MORE than satisfied with them. I will say that they do take work to integrate smoothly into your own routines, so maybe that is the problem people have with them, I really don't know.

-C
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 13, 2007 12:23PM)
Twisting a transative paradox while remembering seating positions plus separating all mathematical equations SIMULANEOUSLY for six people ( And you are 3,000 miles away) is not SIMPLE...But it works :)
KISS is not always the way.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 13, 2007 12:32PM)
The journey may be one short step or a million miles, its what you learn on the way that's important...
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 13, 2007 12:36PM)
Base pair for base pair,
lambda is far smarter
than you or I...


OMG, lol
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Aug 13, 2007 12:44PM)
I am always striving to simplify both methodology and effect. My goal is to make the effect simple and direct enough so that the audience understands what happens, but no simpler.

As far as method goes, I want it simple as possible without sacrificing effectiveness and cleanliness.


Tony
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 13, 2007 12:48PM)
Totally agree with you, Tony. If the audience understands what is happening, then the effect is clear. The actual simplicity is irrelevant.

I completely agree with your thoughts on method as well. I will say that there are some elements of my routine that are not "as simple as possible" because of inherent trade-offs in terms of the end result but they are as simple as I can make them while staying true to the effect I want to perform.

-C
Message: Posted by: Dr Desmond Jones (Aug 13, 2007 01:11PM)
James, come now. You try and pull the wool over the eyes of these chaps. You claim to be a paranormalist and have this mystique.

All I am saying is that for some one much loved by this community and touted to be such a grandiose mentalist/paranormalist: I expected to see more paranormal not card tricks. Sorry for making the observation, actually no I'm not. LINKING RINGS in mentalism? Come on. If that's the best you have. And nice blindfoil use.

Keep it simple was meant to question everything you do. NEVER accept advice without questioning who's giving it. Now I have to ask what is your personae. Mixing up linking rings and balloons with one that is a paranormalist shoots credibility in the arse. Now that isn't saying that you may not make some nice money being a sculptor, however I question the artistic and community moxie you have when this is whats going on.

But that's getting personal, and I am sorry. Instead lets get to the DVD's. Card Tricks? Come now. They wern't even interesting. Slim did you pay for your copy? If not: your opinions null in this debate. If one wants to keep it simple and be a mentalist and sell products to mentalists then sell us mind reading not card tricks. I read all the hype as all of you did and fell for it. That infernal egress thing.

I learned something: If you want to know how much work a person gets and how credible he is, google his name and see how much of "corporate shows" they actually do.
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 13, 2007 01:16PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-13 14:11, Dr Desmond Jones wrote:
...

I learned something: If you want to know how much work a person gets and how credible he is, google his name and see how much of "corporate shows" they actually do.
[/quote]

Really? Are you sure? I feel, as does anybody I have ever met who needs reliable information, that a simple google search is NOT truly useful. But that is really neither here nor there, you seem to have your sights set on a particular person and that person's set of products. In other words, you seem (to me) to be dressing up a personal grudge as an actual discussion. Shame on you!

Your topic was not the relevance of linking rings to mentalism, lest we forget what you actually started off saying. Same thing for card tricks. Pick a topic and let us have an actual discussion.

-Carlos
Message: Posted by: Dr Desmond Jones (Aug 13, 2007 01:28PM)
This has degraded into personal attacks to some degree. It has lost my original purpose.

I guess I cant get people to think: if I bash one of their heros videos.

The card warmth in Jims set is good but has been played before by hypnotists for years as animal magnetism. Why use a playing card? It weakens it. You look like a kids birthday clown. Use a version of PK touch or similar. The drawing dupe just didn't fit my performances and do we need yet more blindfold advice?

Tony Eye, how many of these effects do you use? Honestly.

Best post goes to the: Shirtless Jim comment.

CAN WE LOCK THIS?
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Aug 13, 2007 01:33PM)
Dr. Desmond,

What a joke! I've also used the Linking Rings to open my mentalism shows . . . I'm re-working things a bit now, but the routine itself is audience tested and steadfast. Good enough for Dunninger, but not for you? That's fine, but let's not play like the old greats did not also utilize them at some point, many did.

Also, Google to find out what corporate shows one does??? What if we are not playing to the corporate market? That is not a viable method to learn anything if the person in question is not geared towards this field.

I'm interested to know what exactly you are getting at. At this point, I would rather hit you.

-J.
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 13, 2007 01:35PM)
Dr. Desmond,
Um, it started with a theoretically specific topic (KISS) which you never, in my mind, actually discussed except as a thin premise to comment on somebody else's (somebody who PERFORMS) routine.

I am all up for an actual discussion of the type you purported to want as well, and am still waiting. As I said, pick a topic and let us actually have a discussion.

That is, of course, assuming you wanted a topic and not to rant. I am thinking the latter is actually true.
Message: Posted by: burst (Aug 13, 2007 01:42PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-13 14:28, Dr Desmond Jones wrote:
This has degraded into personal attacks to some degree. It has lost my original purpose.

I guess I cant get people to think: if I bash one of their heros videos.[/quote]

Personally, I am very pleased that none here are being childish and hypocritical. It says a lot.

/paul.f
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Aug 13, 2007 01:50PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-13 14:28, Dr Desmond Jones wrote:

Tony Eye, how many of these effects do you use? Honestly.


[/quote]

Sure, I don't use any of Jim's effects. (Then again, I prefer not to do anyone else's material.) But I do like the way he thinks, and there are some ideas that I've ben exploring.

Tony
Message: Posted by: Virungan (Aug 13, 2007 02:25PM)
Koran used to open with the linking rings... I believe he knew a thing or three about mentalism...

He did keep his shirt on though :)
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 13, 2007 02:31PM)
Dr Desmond,

The thread didn't degrade into personal attacks - it started as such - i.e. you on Jim's J ack's DVDs - i.e. moving from KISS to demoing that JJ's effects not only break the rule...but also that he has mostly "card tricks"... and that you had certain emotional reactions to the whole thing - and something about JJ's status on the MC . Although the topic of KISS is a good thing to discuss, if you look how you went on to choose the DVDs and the way you described them, one can take them as personal attacks on J ack... and no, I will not debate it - if you can't see it, I don't want to bother. If you really wanted to focus on the merits or demerits of the DVD, post it in the DVD review section... or the tea thread that is already in existence.

Also, the way you refer to card "tricks" make it sound like they are the equivalent of a fart joke.... not very nice to our fellow card magicians. I think they refer to their card effects as CARD EFFECTS.... just like how we don't call our material Mentalism Tricks... but in the end, who cares so long as we try to have mutual respect for each other?

Next, the debate of cards vs. no cards for mentalism is long and unending. There is a difference between a magic, mental magic and mentalism style of presentation (maybe)... but many card effects can be used for mentalism with the right presentation...IMHO... and that opinion is not a lone one. There is the camp that cards can never be used as it weakens the performance. I contend that those who hold to NEVER concepts may be more of a menace to creativity than those who try to combine things. When I hear someone say "the real work" and pontificate, I just wonder how he/she or anyone can claim there is one "real" "true" way to do anything.

Now back to the spirit: K.I.S.S. is a good concept - as they say... ornate objects are less expensive than the equivalent pure plain ones most times because it takes much more craftsmanship to produce a flawless ladel than one with etchings etc that can hide flaws. Confusion is not magic (or mentalism).

Dr S

(P.S. This is not me defending Jim/Jack or his DVDs (which I bought) but pointing out that there are ways to discuss things in a more friendly manner and getting the points across...IMHO)
Message: Posted by: RLFrame (Aug 13, 2007 02:47PM)
The method might be a complicated engineering marvel, but to an audience, the lady just floated up in mid air. Which is why I thought the the motto was, "Keep It LOOKING Laughingly Simple" to an audience. Isn't that why people say a great effect "K.I.L.L.S. ???
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 13, 2007 02:49PM)
Nice analogy, Dr S. Nice acronym, RLFrame.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 13, 2007 05:07PM)
To answer the Docc's question, I pay for all the DVD's or effects that I publically comment on ( I have QUESTIONED a few things I haven't purchased). Everyone here knows that. So the answer is YES, I did payed for the DVD...Full Price..AND I used Thought Broadcast on the Radio. It plays stronger than ANYTHING that I've heard of you doing :)
Message: Posted by: ALEXANDRE (Aug 13, 2007 05:27PM)
It really is all a matter of taste, if this guy doesn't like Jim's material, to hell with him. Like I said earlier, the more people think Jim sucks and refuse to grow with his thinking, the happier I am.

Apart from that, Jim couldn't get better advertising for his material if he purchased ten ads here in the Café. Perhaps we are all being fooled and this Dr. is actually a friend of Jim's? Or sneakier still, J ack's.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 13, 2007 05:35PM)
That's why we call it ILLUSION. :)
Message: Posted by: Oyama (Aug 14, 2007 04:57PM)
ALEXANDRE: Your idea to do a mentalism show with nothing but cards would be awesome! I love cards and mentalism, why not combine to two. I would buy that DVD. Just another opinion.
Message: Posted by: Jim-Callahan (Aug 15, 2007 05:58PM)
Mick Ayres, has two ebooks using just cards for a complete mental show that he tested on the job for Disney.

J ack
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 15, 2007 06:07PM)
The links to the threads on these two ebooks are below:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=196507&forum=159

and

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=201093&forum=159&0


In a perfect world, nobody else would ever buy this so those of us who have it can lord it over you plebians forever. However, I have always felt we need to support those that share their ideas (plus, I want the third book in the Act series to come out already, lol).

Mick's stuff is pretty darn commercial, I routinely floor people with the first effect in the first book. And, for the record, I bought it, have never met Mick in person, am not a Mick fan boy, and am not being controlled by the Paranormalist.

But, as always, don't take anything for granted, read the reviews yourselves, then run to buy this stuff.

Man, that sounds like a commercial.

-J a... er, I mean Carlos
Message: Posted by: ALEXANDRE (Aug 15, 2007 08:42PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-15 19:07, Carlos the Great wrote:
... and am not being controlled by the Paranormalist.
[/quote]

How do you know? How does anyone know???!!
Message: Posted by: Arnon (Aug 18, 2007 01:47AM)
Dear Dr. Jones:

I have had my wars with Jim/J ack, but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. And your attacks on his DVDs are wrong, in my opinion.

[quote]
On 2007-08-12 18:21, Dr Desmond Jones wrote:
***
…Now when I perform I want there to be a ground shattering effect that happens within the audience. In fact if they could help bring about this effect, I would be HAPPY!
[/quote]

Dr. Jones, perhaps you failed to comprehend the essence of Jim/J ack's DVDs.

For example, "Tower of Thought" on "Tea" CAN create "a ground shattering effect that happens within the audience," BUT you need the complex and subtle presentational skills necessary to create that effect on the audience. It requires a slew of skills and the execution of psychological and physical subtleties applied throughout the effect and with dynamic interaction with one's audience, in order to create the desired illusion and maximize its impact on the audience. It is a COMPLICATED undertaking, requiring much rehearsal and then performance experience, to realize the full potential of "Tower of Thought."

Yet, the illusion itself is SIMPLE in its impact on the audience, but disorienting to their belief in their grasp of reality that they thought they had firmly had all along.

Also, "Tower of Thought" was demonstrated using playing cards AS OBJECTS (did you really LISTEN to Jim/J ack's explanations?). I, for one, look forward to using photographs instead.

As far as your other attacks on Jim/J ack, while I disagree with his choice of repertoire and sincerely believe that it is bad for the future of his career, it is up to him to choose his material. My purpose is only to LEARN from him what I can and WHAT I WANT, and LEAVE THE REST.

The only real gripe I have ever had with him was over ethics - the requirement of a strong disclaimer when performing for minors; misrepresenting facts on this forum when he thought he could get away with them; and general intellectual dishonesty. Also, the fact that he has many blindly devoted followers on the Café who are willing to run interference and "take a bullet" for him, irks me to no end. (Where's the spider-eater?)

However, I urge you to please watch the DVD(s) again, and reconsider them in the light of what I've posted.

Thanks,
Arnon
Message: Posted by: Carlos the Great (Aug 18, 2007 02:12PM)
"Also, the fact that he has many blindly devoted followers on the Café who are willing to run interference and "take a bullet" for him, irks me to no end."

I fail to see the relevance of whether or not he has fans, why it irks you, and what it has to do with anything, esp. the theoretical topic (KISS versus the real topic of bashing). Could you explain because is sounds like transparent jealousy but if there is an actual reason, it would make a bit more sense.

-C
Message: Posted by: Arnon (Aug 18, 2007 04:08PM)
CtG:

Are you pinch-hitting for the spider-eater?

Accept my post without my further explanation, or complain to the Admins and try to have it deleted.

I choose not to go down this path of argument escalation. My breath is a medium of meditation not to be wasted. Waste your own energy.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Aug 18, 2007 05:33PM)
[quote]
On 2007-08-18 17:08, arnon wrote:
CtG:

Are you pinch-hitting for the spider-eater?


[/quote]

Just had a handful. Unfortuantly for you I ate the kind that lets me remote view. I wont tell anybody what you are doing right now.

Here is the difference Arnon. A long time ago Jim and used to battle on these boards day and night. Its probably where over 60% of my posts come from on the Café. Then one day I realized I would never get anywhere with him in a public forum. You know what I did? Picked up a phone and called the man. I am guessing you never have. To say I walk blind and follow Jim is an insult to both He and I. The differnce is when I have a tiff with Jim I actually call him on the phone or PM him or E-mail him. If me not battling publicly bothers you then I am sorry, but I don't see the need. Plus once I actually called Jim I realized I had nothing to "battle" with him.