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Topic: Vanishing a finger ring and transporting it to your keyring in under 30 seconds in the cleanest way.
Message: Posted by: John McCormack (Feb 15, 2003 10:28AM)
Hello,

Is there a resource for an effect like this, perhaps in the Tarbell's or other popular book?
Could you please say what the effect is, if it differs slightly, and is there any additional props, devices or gimmicks?

Take it easy,

John.
Message: Posted by: Wesley (Feb 16, 2003 07:14PM)
It's interesting how most of us professional magicians know the effect is achieved but haven't responded.
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Feb 16, 2003 07:19PM)
Perhaps it is because the question has been discussed before. The pros and cons of several different versions were discussed at length, including reel based and reel-less types of ring flights. I think that a search for “Ring Flight” will produce the answers you are looking for.
Message: Posted by: Wesley (Feb 16, 2003 07:25PM)
I use iMAKulate ring flight.
Message: Posted by: John McCormack (Feb 17, 2003 11:55AM)
[quote]
On 2003-02-16 20:14, Wesley wrote:
Its interesting how most of us professional magicians know the effect is achieved but haven't responded.
[/quote]

And how do we know you are a professional magician?

BTW, does being a professional (if you are one) instantly make you better than an amature? A professional is someone who simply makes their living performing magic, it doesn't mean that they are particularly good, and it doesn't mean they posess more skill or passion for magic than an amature. People seem to forget the meaning of the word "amature", when some one says "Your an amature" in any field of endavour it doesn't mean anything, it means this person just doesn't make their money from performing magic.

Prehaps I don't want to make money from magic? Maybe I'm happy to study/practice/rehearse before I try to go pro?

John.

p. S. BTW I could probably come up with several ways of doing a similar effect if I put my mind to it, I wasn't asking for the secret, I wanted to know if there was a preferred method of doing this that I am unaware of.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Feb 17, 2003 04:58PM)
John,

Many working magicians have had very bad experiences with rings and gemstones and unhappy lenders of same.

Some have started doing the routine with a signed key.

You might get some good insights on the state of the art by searching on 'ring flight'. It is at least fifty years old and the 'flight' part of it has gotten so many magicians in trouble that some other methods were invented where the ring does not go flying. :-) -Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Feb 18, 2003 09:53AM)
OK, so now to answer your question! As mentioned above, there are literally dozens of marketed versions of the Ring Flight effect. I believe that you realize that this effect is in two parts. First the vanish, then (after some time misdirection) the discovery on a key ring of some kind. Some of the solutions to the problem are clever mechanical marvels (see Rinky Dink, the Immaculate Ring Flight, Power Ring Flight) and others low Tec (Stewards “Ring Thing”, Gaeton Bloom “ or Vanni Bossi’s “Flying Ring”). The dirty work in ALL the versions is done in less than the 30 seconds you required (but what is the rush?).

As to the version that I think is best. I think it depends on your performing style and if you have a strong routine to support the gimmick. The effect is basically the same. Ring vanishes and reappears with your keys. (Or transposes with your car/house key). All the gimmicks work to a greater or lesser degree. All take practice, skill, a good routine and a clear presentation style.

I don’t particularly like the mechanical-gizmo-based ‘Ring Flight’. Mechanical ring flights do have a tendency to break when you need them the most. This is true especially if you are a working magician and performing the effect regularly (say three or four times a night several nights a week).

I have one of the best reel versions made; it has a locking gizmo and it has only failed me in performance once or twice (but was only used for about fifty performances). That said I haven’t used it in more than 20 years. I moved away from the gizmo-based version because of an accident that a friend of mine had. He damaged an expensive ring. Enough said!

My first nonmechanical-nongizmo-based version was purchased from Supreme Magic in England (over 20 years ago now). It was called “Ringon Ringon” and used a snap closed key case. It was very cleverly gimmicked and had a strong routine. I still use the routine and still have the gimmicked key case.

Another that is available that uses the same kind of key case, but is gimmicked in a totally different way (actually an easier gimmick to use than the Ringon Ringon), is “Gone With The Ring”. It is a very low-tech gimmick. Cost is about $15.00 from Magic Smith. It is very direct and very easy to use.

Presently, I use the Jeff Stewart idea of a gimmicked key ring that accepts a finger ring almost instantly (put your hand in your pocket to take out your key ring, take it out and there is the finger ring! It’s that fast! Jeff calls his version the “Ring Thing” and it costs a big $10.00 from Meir Yedid! Meir’s web site is http://www.mymagic.com
I carry my car key on this ring so I am ready to perform the effect anywhere anytime!

Two interesting Ring Flight kind of ideas that get away from the key case or key ring is Richard Sanders “On Foot” (Ring to Shoe Lace, $20.00 Magic Smith) and “My Ring Collection” (a very cool ring to safety pin amongst a whole set of safety-pinned rings on a piece of red cloth which is pinned inside your jacket! Whew, did you get that? All for $15.00 from Magic Smith).

Steve Dusheck marketed a couple of different versions years ago that were different and reel-less (one the key was actually found on a key chain, the ball type of chain). Bob Solari has an interesting reel-less ring flight. Of course there is Gaeton Bloom’s version (but use the Mike Close routine Not the weak routine that comes with the prop).

Ok, that is more than you ever wanted to know about the reel-less Ring Flight. I am offering this to get you thinking about alternatives to a fairly expensive prop (an not very contemporary looking) prop. I am only suggesting that the effect may be had by other less mechanical means.

Understand that I started performing Ring Flight with a Viking "Power Ring Flight" over 15 years ago. I still have it and it still works. However, it has jammed on me at least twice and I have had to take apart the mechanism to do some minor tune up at least once. I used it regularly for about 5 years before putting it aside. I prefer a non-mechanical version because I don’t trust the mechanical gimmick to work all the time. There is a post here on the Café that one performer’s “Rinkey-Dink” broke after only a week. I don’t know how many performances that was, but it demonstrates my point.

The second thing I don’t like about the mechanical versions was the fact that I had to hide “a something” that does the “dirty work”. While not impossible or even that difficult it is just an extra pain.

And the third thing I don’t like was all the stories of damaged rings from being whipped around the body at the speed of sound! (OK, OK, I exaggerate! It never happened to me but I thought about the issue a lot!).

Finally, I don’t like the fat, almost wallet-like, key case.

All of which is why I tend to use the Jeff Stewart “Ring Thing”. It can be found at:
http://www.mymagic.com/stewart.html
it only costs $10.00 USD! I carry “Ring Thing” with me daily. It has my car key on it. I use it to perform Ring Flight “impromptu” with just a little "get ready". I recommend this version.

However, the unit I use as a performance piece in my stand-up act is based on Mike Close’s handling of Gaeton Blooms “Flying Ring”. Gaeton Bloom’s version uses a leather, pinch open, single key pouch thing. No moving parts. The routine involves two spectators and plays big. If you go with this version, then get the Mike Close “Workers” tape or book (Workers #5) that addresses it. It will be worth the investment. Strongly recommended.
Finally (there’s more?) check out Café member Doug Atkinson’s web site. He has a list of most, if not all Ring Flight available, a brief description, where to get them and how much they cost. His site is at: http://magicref.tripod.com/magref/magring.htm
Message: Posted by: RandyStewart (Feb 18, 2003 11:15AM)
I've never experienced a mechanical gimmick failure. However, horry stories (many posted here) of dropped or damaged rings coupled with a wonder-struck spectator's reaction: "Hmmmm..you know that's a $9,000.00 ring you just vanished", caused me to leave the darn thing in a drawer.

I just don't want to deal with the possibility of a damaged, dropped, or lost ring.

Always looking forward to your posts,

Randy Stewart
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Feb 18, 2003 12:01PM)
To be safe, the best bet is to borrow a "man's wedding band" no stone... but easily identified.

I used to do the original "Flying Ring" -- which used a HUGE reel in your pocket. No keycase... the ring would vanish from your right hand and almost instantly appear on a selected finger of your left hand.

You had left hand in your pocket, ring was "whipped" by the strong reel to your left pocket and came off the special clip automatically, you slipped it onto the chosen finger and voila... a miracle.

I think it was a Willman (German) unit I had.
Message: Posted by: domclarke (Feb 19, 2003 03:01PM)
Harry,
Just wanted to say thanks for the great post. Crystal clear and very informative on a topic I am looking into.

Cheers mate.
Message: Posted by: Brian Proctor (Feb 19, 2003 11:22PM)
For the last few months I had been using a Ring Box from MAK Magic (looks like a small treasure chest with a lock). I have had great success with it. But hearing about this Ring Thing from Jeff Stewart has made me realize, I don't have to carry a bulky box in my pocket. :) Harry, how durable is your Ring Thing?
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Feb 20, 2003 12:38AM)
Borrow a ring. Hold in left hand. Cover left hand with handkerchief. Gesture around left hand asking someone to hold your wrist "so the ring can't get out" -- as you gestured, ala vanish with Vernon wand spin, ring drops into right hand.

Reach into pocket and get Steve Dusheck's "RINGED" loading ring onto loop.

Sell it, get applause!

Fast. No reel or thread to worry about breaking...and it re-sets instantly. :pepsi:
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 20, 2003 05:11PM)
I like Mike Close's ideas for his Ring Flight.
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Feb 21, 2003 08:41AM)
Nobody has yet mentioned "The Morelli Ring", which is manufactured by Collector's Workshop! No keycase, no worry about what ring you can borrow and the spectators can handle the gimmick and remove the ring by themselves. Very clean! Very ordinary looking gimmick, which just about everyone has!

Cheers!
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Feb 21, 2003 09:36AM)
I am probably one of the only people who ever got into trouble [i]before[/i] using my Ring Flight.

I was in the middle of a performance, and this was a particularly receptive group. They had seen me return a watch to another table, and so after a few card rotuines and such, I asked to borrow a ring.

The woman to my left started to take off some particular ring, when she realized it wasn't there. Now I knew for a fact I had done nothing, but she swore up and down that I had salted it away [i]and right off of her finger[/i].

I had to make an impassioned statement (out of character, such as it is) to explain that I do not steal rings, and that it's nearly impossible.

She finally dug around in her purse, after sufficient accusation, and found her ring. I said "have a nice evening" and left the table, before she started blaming me for something else--like placing sufficient amounts of cholesterol in her bloodstream, or cultivating her addicition to Big Macs.
Message: Posted by: vernon (Feb 23, 2003 02:48AM)
Bought my ring flight off Daryl years ago when he was selling the Sylvester the Jester sparking gimmick with it. Basic zippered leather pouch and reel... Only once has the ring flown off and scooted across the floor, a niteclub no less with the hook attached... It was for the sponsor and the club was just about to open the doors... Sweat... you bet. Still use it though and ater 7 years... no probs. Must just be lucky.
Vernon
Message: Posted by: lyndonwebb (Feb 25, 2003 02:42PM)
Have you thought of Mark Leveridge's ring flight, fast and nothing to hide.
Message: Posted by: gkfreed (Apr 2, 2003 06:56PM)
I've had my "Ringer" from Steve Dusheck for over 20 years...No reel, easy on and can be used as a regular key holder.
Message: Posted by: Backroomboy (Apr 6, 2003 07:55AM)
Just don't use a ring with a stone. The claws on a ring become worn with age and you are just asking for trouble.
Message: Posted by: EricHenning (Jul 1, 2004 05:55PM)
Hmmm...since SO MANY magicians do this, why should you?
Why not do one of the 1000's of great tricks that nearly no one is doing, read Stanyon's "MAGIC" or the old magazines.
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Jul 2, 2004 12:24AM)
I use Dusheck's Ringer because I don't want to put someone's ring at risk. If you can do a coin pass and can construct a routine, it will serve you well.
Message: Posted by: Michael Bilkis (Jul 2, 2004 06:08AM)
I stopped doing ring flight when I heard about someone's ring coming off the clip and flying across the room. In this era people are only too happy to claim you stole their million dollar ring and substututed a cheaper one. David Regal solves the problem in his More Tricks series. It's very mechanical and won't work for a table hopper. I used to love ring flight, but haven't done it in many years.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Bair (Jul 2, 2004 12:44PM)
I use good old sleight of hand onto a key wallet. Leave the hook outside your pocket, bend it out a little and put the ring onto it. Open up the wallet and let it fall down. Viola!
Matt
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jul 2, 2004 07:26PM)
Magic_matt ... that is just what the master of them all, Fred Kaps used to do.
Message: Posted by: Daniel Santos (Jul 2, 2004 07:53PM)
I own a Rinkey Dinky which is pretty simple to work out. The only problem with mine is that the string flew into the key after the clip came off :(. LoL I don't know how the heck that happened, but I've wasted about 50 bucks...lol.
Message: Posted by: itsmagic (Jul 2, 2004 09:12PM)
Magic Matt, there is also a marketed version called GONE WITH THE RING by Jerry Somerdin, which is exactly as you described.
Message: Posted by: dynamiteassasin (Jul 3, 2004 12:05PM)
I suggest that the Ring Flight, if hard to do, can be substituted for another high impact effect.

Why not try a Ring Penetration through a string?
Message: Posted by: Jim Mullen 2 (Jan 18, 2005 08:20PM)
One problem with most reel-type Ring Flights is the construction of the clasp. Most of these cause difficulty in attaching the ring, and some are just plain cheap and can be the cause of a flying ring.

Could someone comment on which manufacturers of the trick offer the best clasp?
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 18, 2005 09:35PM)
YES.... JOE PORPER (and yours truly)... it is called "Just IN Case" and find it at http://www.stevensmagic.com or http://www.hocus-pocus.com It solved all the problems and is a very hot seller right now.
Message: Posted by: Conus (Jan 19, 2005 06:43PM)
The "Little Giant Encyclopedia Card and Magic Tricks" explains a non-flight arrangement that meets your needs.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 19, 2005 07:22PM)
STEVE DUSHECK'S RINGER is as good as it gets all that is necessary is a key ring and a easy slight.........

the godfather
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Jan 19, 2005 07:56PM)
I agree with Vinny on the Steve Duscheck solution. Duscheck has some really good coin effects out there too. I'm a fan!

Bob
Magic By Sander
Message: Posted by: niva (Jan 20, 2005 03:56AM)
WOW! What a great post by Harry Murphy. I was looking for some ring flight that did not use a key case. As Harry said key cases are outdated now just like those BIG Card to Wallet wallets. Key chains are the norm now.

Anyway. I checked the one at Meir Yedid's website (Ring Thing). But do you have to use the big logo thing that is in the picture as well.

I couldn't fing Gone with the Ring and not even My Ring Collection. There is another one similar to the latter. It's by Robert Baxt called Fing Flite Gag and avalable fro Hocus Pocus. Are these the same thing?

Also to avoid confusion, Hocus Pocus have another trick called Ring Thing also for 10$ but it's not the same thing. This one is by Garrett Thomas. I believe this one is also available on his video Any Questions. Is this right?

Thanks everyone.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 20, 2005 06:14AM)
I didn't read all the postings here, sorry. (You'll get my opinion anyway. :) )

But this is mainly to, that I've studied, bought and tried out a lot of different versions on the marked and no matter what came up, the original classical version from Al Koran is still the best.
I'll stick to this opinion, no matter what arguments are coming up..
There is none better than using a 'r**l', a quality one, and well hidden in the keycase.

I know all about the disadvantages, the th***d can brake, as well as the argument the thingy can fly all over the place. It doesn't, if you know your bizz.

It's fun to play with all the so called improvements/simplifications, but that's all. It's fun.

In the real world, under fire, there is only one practical/fast and deceptive solution. Can pros like Ron Wilson be wrong? Don Alan?

Yes, I know, Fred Kaps did play and try out other solutions and many well known names did. Where they happy re what they came up with?

I don't know.

No doubt, a world class performer like Fred Kaps could use his own solution, but most other average magicians -and that includes me- will never get away with it.

The classical solution though is surefire and the spectators have "no idea". What more can one ask for?

It's clean, easy to handle if you use your brain, deceptive and one can concentrate on the variations of handlings one can come up with that 'gimick' is just a tool that can brake. But that too goes for the Devano Deck Al Goshman closed his act with..as well as Don Alan used it and there are more examples re "risky" props.

You even can drop a coin or do a bad pass; can happen to anybody. It append even to Derek Dingle. It's always risky to "do" magic. And the main risk still is the performer. The props come next.

Use the classical method. You can't go wrong!

Forget all the "improvments", I tried most of them and they never were as clean as the original.
Even Don Alan, a high class, high-payed pro, did stick to the original.

I wonder why?
Nope. I don't! :kermit:
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 20, 2005 10:24AM)
Werner my friend, have you tried Dushecks Ringer??
I am not disputing anything thing you said because you are very knowledable magician.
vinny
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 20, 2005 11:02AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-20 11:24, vinsmagic wrote:
Werner my friend, have you tried Dushecks Ringer??
I am not disputing anything thing you said because you are very knowledable magician,,,,,,,
vinny

[/quote]Vinny, TBH, Dushecks Ringer is not in my collection...but I assure you, there are a lot of others...so many, I have given up to trust any other *invention* apart from the original Al Koran version..

And yes..of course I did read about Dushecks Ringer many years back,when it appeared on the scene, but at that time I already had given up to find anything that can replace the classical version..
Still, I might be wrong, but I simply can't imagine a more surefire handling then the original..
Apart from the few professionals using the original I mentioned, I know of a lot of others that rely on it..
Even Germanys Piet Hartling does use it doing strolling magic..and he does it well..

I've at least 7 diff. *cases* re the original, actually I think I have more...they all work..just the cases and the secret device used are different..
I really doubt anything else can be better then the original, re cleanness of handling...
Placing the borrowed ring under a handkerchief?
Why???
All this stuff are substitudes for the real work, and most certainly not an improvment on it..
Only my opinion..
I would most certainly love to have another solution then the original, because it can break, but I too can drop a coin..so the risk is the same, nevertheless, other solutions are interetsting, I unfortunately so far didn't find any that could compare with the original.. :(
I've spend 1000's of $'s on other solutions..I don't mind to have a go at Dushecks too if you really find it worthwhile Vinny..
Message: Posted by: Steve Dusheck (Jan 20, 2005 11:31AM)
I must agree with Werner that Koran's original presentation is great. Most magicians use the reel to make the vanish of the ring easy. Koran used the reel to make the trick amazing. His key case was inside his breast pocket. That's why the reel was so effective.
There are many times when I do not wear a suit and perform in short sleeves. The Koran version is not practical for those times. When I first performed the Koran effect at a cocktail party, my hostess said it was great and called her friends over to see this great trick. Of course I could not repeat it. I had to design a method that was instantly repeatable for strolling magic shows.
I made my version for my own use. The audiences always ask me to do it again and the instant repeat is part of my act. Doing the effect a second time is even more amazing.
There is no best version of the trick. Most of them are very good. You have to decide which one fits your working conditions and your working style. I carry my verssion in my pocket, every day, with my house and car keys on it. I am always prepared to do a great trick when asked. I have a second Ringer in my close-up case for my paid shows.
I often do Ringer and for the requested repeat have their ring fail to appear on the key ring. I pretend to be surprised and look on the floor saying "I hate when that happens. You are lucky that I always carry a spare set of keys." I bring out Bud Dietricks' Chain Reaction. The ring is seen hanging on my key chain.
If you have Jerry mentzer's Magic With Finger Rings book you will find the first version of Ringer I made. It works great and you can make your own for a few dollars. There are a lot of good tricks in that book.
Best wishes,
Steve
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 20, 2005 12:14PM)
Ringer is excellent. However Werner, you have to try "Just In Case" for another approach.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 20, 2005 12:41PM)
Thanx Steve and Pete. I'll continue my search. :)

A lot to choose from:

http://members.aol.com/magic168/ringflight.html

Pete, you have to get yours reviewed there too :)
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 20, 2005 06:57PM)
Werner I do ring and string and I even sent You and Steve some of my handlings for an ending. However, since I now have the Ringer this has become the final ending and the repeat as Steve describes is stronger than the first time you do it.
The Ringer is now carried with me at all times.
vinny
Message: Posted by: wsduncan (Jan 20, 2005 09:11PM)
[quote]
On 2003-02-17 17:58, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
John,

Many working magicians have had very bad experiences with rings and gemstones and unhappy lenders of same.

Some have started doing the routine with a signed key.[/quote]
Jon,
I'd love to hear a publication date on that. I thought it was mine...
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 20, 2005 09:39PM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-20 19:57, vinsmagic wrote:
WernerI do ring and string and I even sent You and Steve some of my handlings for an ending. However, since I now have the Ringer this has become the final ending and the repeat as Steve describes is stronger than the first time you do it.
The Ringer is now carried with me at all times.
vinny
[/quote]Vinny, I just discovered, *Ringer* doesn't use a keycase, but something not familar to be used here in DK.
That must be the reason I didn't get it when it appeared on the scene!
I'll send you a demo where Pit Hartling does the classical version doing strolling magic.
Can anything compete with the cleaness of handling?
I doubt it.
Will send off to your email-addy
3 MB, hope your provider can keep up with it. :)
Posted: Jan 20, 2005 11:51pm
--------------------------------------------------------
One final remark re Ring Flite. Give me one method that is as clean as the original!
Explanation: Which other method enables you to show both hands empty and reach down for your backpocket with your empty hand, that never before has been near your backpocket, withdraw a keycase, snap it open and display the specs ring? Just show me one method able to do the same! It doesn't exist.

That's the reason, I still stick to the original Al Koran method without -of course- letting pop the ring up the s****e, but straight under the jacket.

Each and every method has it's flaws also the 'r**l' method, but nevertheless it is a very clean and magical handling, seen from the specs point of view.

Any other method that need ones hand to come near the keycase to attach the ring can't compete. It is that simple! Also, in any method, the ring has to 'enter' the clip first.

Here is something one could speculate about to improve. That is worth the thoughts.
Place a ring into your hand, eg. drop it into and it does attach itself safely to the clamp/clip and then doe use the 'r**l' method to transport it to the keycase.

That would be what's needed and, of course, that method should be failsafe and doesn't shoot the ring out all over the place.

Never borrow a ring with a stone ask for a weddingring and compliment re how nice and expensive it looks.

Using the *under the jacket* method, one can use ones forearm to control the fast action to some degree, so the danger, the ring will leave the clip and is shoot allover the place is minimized. You also can drop it when trying to attach it manually to the keycase. So why all the fuzz re the thread or spring is breaking?

So I simply don't understand so many performers are so happy with the substitude methods for the Ring Flite. The original to me is the best.
JMHO..
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 21, 2005 02:44AM)
Werner just one point, can you show both hands empty before you do the effect? You can not because you have the gimmick in your hand and can you repeat it instantly?With Ringer you can do both of these. And thank you for sending Pit Hartling's excellent video clip.
vinny
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 21, 2005 03:07AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-21 03:44, vinsmagic wrote:
Werner just one point, can you show both hands empty before you do the effect? [/quote]
:) Well Vinny, it depends.. :)
One can easily start with showing both hands empty, approaching a ladyspec, shaking hands also and asking for the loan of her ring.

Whilst reaching forward to receive it with the left, the right can "fetch" the needed clamp, whilst the "gimmick" still is blocked as there is enough slag at that time. So, it depends.

So, my answer to your question is "YES" at that stage. :)

Most other methods are depending on the clamp is attached right at the start, so "Ringer" is an exception, as is Fred Kaps's version.

Apart form what I mentioned, there are other possibilities re handling the Ring Flite.

I would for example, combine it with the ring on stick, using a version of Michael Skinner, that is NOT in his teach-in video, but actually was published once - and overlooked by most - in Genii.

It's a great and natural handling and the "load" of the extra is incredibly well covered.

After the ring has appeared on the stick and the spec takes it off to verify/has a closer look at her ring, you fetch the gimmick. So that in practice there is no problem.

I still think the greatest feature re Ring Flite is to 100% point out that one does reach for ones keycase with a totally empty hand and they have seen one never was near it before..

That actually counts much more then showing/displaying empty hands when nothing yet has happend.

Why should one display ones hand empty before anything has gone on?

A statment like "You can show your hands empty before you start" is solely usefull in magic catalogues to get people to buy the stuff. In the real world, at that stage, it means absolutely nothing.

Did Cardini show his hands empty when entering the stage to produce cardfans with "gloved" hands ?

Sometimes (or rather always) we have to try to forget to think as "magicians".

Why run when nobody is cheasing you? They are not interested in your empty hands whilst you are talking with them. :)

So sorry Vinny, my dear friend, I'm not "trapped" by your argument.:) :)
BUT, producing the keycase, reaching for it with empty hands makes sense. Their ring is gone, so ones hand should be empty when reaching for it.

Is it, when using "Ringer" or most other sleight of hand methods?
I'll answer this myself:

Nope! :kermit:

Oh forgot..why repeat the effect?
To get catched by using those methods? :)
Is it a puzzle or should it be magic "we" do?
That's my answer to the "repeat", again an argument for a magic catalogue.
Message: Posted by: boxjumper (Jan 21, 2005 10:58AM)
I use Gaeton Bloom's Flying Ring. I think it is the most practical and reliable method around. Just In Case is also very good but I prefer Bloom's method.
Message: Posted by: niva (Jan 21, 2005 02:41PM)
Let me trap you, Werner.

[quote]
A statment like *You can show your hands empty before you start* is solely usefull in magic catalogues to get ppl to buy the stuff..in the real world, at that stage, it means absolutely nothing..

Did Cardini show his hands empty when entering the stage to produce cardfans with *gloved* hands ?

Sometimes (or rather always) we have to try to forget to think as *magicians*... [/quote]

That's a little ironic my friend. Because I feel that's just what you are doing when you say that you have to reach for the case with empty hands. That's magician's thinking. The species don't know what to expect. You could also delay the appearcance from the vanish.

With your same line of thinking no one should be doing the card to wallet, unless there is a r**l version of it. ;)

Just my thoughts.

As I said above, it has been a while now that I have been looking for a substitute to the keycase. Now I got to know about the Ringer, Ring thing and some others which all use a key rig instead. My question is this. Do these different ones differ in method? And the key ring used, is it the one where you have to drag the key all the way around to get it out?

Thanks for your help.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 21, 2005 02:55PM)
Ok Werner I got knocked down but I am not out. I'm comming out for the 12th and final round Ringer can be done without a jacket or even be done topless, bare chested. Could you say this about ring flight? No, you can't. Ringer is totally imprmptu and can be done with no set up. And after 12 rounds winner by KO and still champion from parts unknown THE GODFATHER OF MAGIC!
Message: Posted by: WayneNZ (Jan 21, 2005 03:15PM)
Jacketless and topless, yep no problem .
Just have the keycase in your rear pants pocket,
in fact that's where I find it works best.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 21, 2005 04:05PM)
[quote]On 2005-01-21 15:55, vinsmagic wrote:
Ringer can be done . . . topless, bare chested.[/quote]
In the interest of quality control, we really ought to have Chrystal demonstrate this for verification, with video available to members on request.

;)
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 21, 2005 04:32PM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-21 17:05, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2005-01-21 15:55, vinsmagic wrote:
Ringer can be done . . . topless, bare chested.[/quote]
In the interest of quality control, we really ought to have Chrystal demonstrate this for verification, with video available to members on request.

;)
[/quote]Thank you :)
I'm looking forward to this. That's what's needed to persuade me. :goof:
Posted: Jan 21, 2005 5:51pm

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Quote:
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On 2005-01-21 15:41, niva wrote:
Let me trap you, Werner.

With your same line of thinking no one should be doing the card to wallet, unless there is a r**l version of it.

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Now that argument I really love
Because I do the CTW the only way it should be done, the classical way, by palming the card.

Good point!
Nevertheless I stick to what I wrote re it highens the 'effect' re RingFlite to clearly show ones hand empty before going for the keycase. The reason simply is, you just have vanished their ring and they are watching you like hawks.

You have to persude them, that what you do is magic that can't be explained and it can't when you reach with your empty hand for the keycase.

The delay thing re revealing the ring is a good option and should always be used, and it can be, even when using *Ringer*., but you have to have a good reasoning/logic to go south with your hand to laod the thingy and that for reason of bringing out f.ex. a pen sign an IOU re the value of the ring or similar stuff that just does delay the effect.

It is a possibility, but it's not the straight way to go.

Don Alan used some delay too, by offering diff. objects first as a substidude for the missing ring.

Still, I've seen a couple of good performers doing the r**l version in a straight forward matter and they've been very successfull in using it.

So let's say, I prefer the classical way, but I also have to accept under certain circumstances one is able to use other methods, like *Ringer* with less effect.

To be used in short sleeves, in summertime, and in situations where there is no time for a reset, which BTW can be done fastly using a r**l too. I've some ideas re this.

Note, I mentioned *with less effect*, which doesn't mean one couldn't fool some ppl with the manual solution.

Actually I played with a such myself and you can get a cheap laugh. I used a small radio-antenna/arial to slip the ring on and that antenna went right down into the keycase. Going for it, the antenna was pushed close, or sometimes even pushed close earlier, whilst the hands where empty.

So actually my empty hand could go for the keycase anytime after the ring had run down the antenna and the hand was way off the keycase all the time.

It worked, but had it's problems. The other end of the antenna had a hook, simulating the other hooks where keys where hanging from. So I too had my fair share of trial with manual solutions and finally I used my brain and thought why improving something that just is perfect?
Posted: Jan 21, 2005 6:07pm
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Quote:
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On 2005-01-21 15:55, vinsmagic wrote:
Ok Werner I got knocked down but I am not out. I'm comming out for the 12th and final round Ringer can be done without a jacket or even be done topless, bare chested. Could you say this about ring flight? No you can't. Ringer is totally impromptu and can be done with no set up.
And after 12 rounds winner by KO and still chanmpion from parts unknown THE GODFATHER OF MAGIC

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Hehehe Vinny you're great!

Doing it in short sleeves without a jacket and having the setup hanging out of your backpocket for all ppl behind to see? Walking around in a restaurant and using the no-reset option all the time, walking around there with the set-up hanging out of the backpocket?

Maybe they'll then hire another magician

Well, maybe "Ringer" hasn't the hook outside the backpocket, but in that case a load might be a bit slower when one has to go inside ones own pocket.
Hmm.
Having a jacket on covers it all. You've seen the way f.ex. Pit Hartling does vanish the ring, pure magic, no funny moves.

I too tried a lot of diff. approaches re a deceptive vanish. Like f.ex. taking the ring with the right from the spec, supposingly transfering it to the fingertips of the left all fingers pointing upwards, back of hand towards the spec, simulation the ring is held between fingers and thumb and staring at it, talking about it's difficult to see the inscription, but, no problem, I've a magnifyer and so going south, loading the ring and coming up with a magnifying glass looking and reading the peeked at inscription (with taste) through the magnifying glass.

Going towards the spec, let her look through the glass asking, "Did I get it right, can you confirm the date?" and so the ring vanished right before her eyes.
Loved the look when SHE told me there was no ring and I could act surprised.

That kind of stuff, it worked, but not clean enough for my taste I had to have an extra prop, the magnifyer with an handle on, but I so displayed, I could do sleight of hand for those magicians watching. No need for that anymore. I want to display to the specs that effect soley can be done by magic and that's why the hand never should go near the keycase and be clearly empty when grabbinbg for it.

Just a few of the thoughts behind my stubborness to use the classical method.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 21, 2005 05:22PM)
Werner Ringer can be in front pants pocket. It does not have to be hanging any where.
Steve Dusheck has been doing this for over 25 years and has never been caught. People who like the effect always ask to see it again a good magician will do it immediately there's no need to run to the bathroom and reset.
vinny
Message: Posted by: niva (Jan 22, 2005 01:59AM)
You are a tough one Werner. LOL

But how do you justify using a keycase? It's not something commonly used nowadays.

And can somebody answer my questions I posted above?
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 22, 2005 02:57AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-22 02:59, niva wrote:

But how do you justify using a keycase? It's not something commonly used nowadays.

[/quote]Oh come on..you don't have to justify 'miracles'...

You can as well argue the same re card to wallet or card to other locations..
Keycases are still common sales-articles here in DK, as well as they are used by some people..maybe not too many, but still enough to get recognized as a common article and not a magic prop.
How to you justify an Okito box, carrying a ring-box (for the folded card in rinbox), running around with a piece of rope in your pocket, a spool of thread, whatever..
Come on..they KNOW we are crazy :goof:
Posted: Jan 22, 2005 4:01am

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On 2005-01-21 18:22, vinsmagic wrote:
Werner Ringer can be in front pants pocket
it does not have to be hanging any where.
Steve Dusheck has been doing this for over 25 years and has never been caught.
People who like the effect always ask to see it again a good magician will do it immeidately(sp)there's no need to run to the bathroom and reset.
vinny
---------------------------------------------------
Good point Vinny, I wish Steve would have developed a similar handling using a 'normal' keycase..the reason I not got *Ringer* when it appeared on the scene is the *keyring* used, which is not commonly known here in DK
Message: Posted by: niva (Jan 22, 2005 05:35AM)
In fact I don't use those big black wallets. There are Hip style wallets now for the card in wallet.

As for the Okito. That's a prop. But a keycase is something old. You can just use a keyring. More portable. Today everything is being made more portable. Take a mobile phone for instance. It would be ridiculous to take out one of those enormous old ones during a show, unless you are doing comedy.

The key case was meant to pass by as another common day item. Now it can't, at least for me, since I am 22. In my hands it would be a prop when it can be otherwise.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 22, 2005 08:11AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-22 06:35, niva wrote:
But a keycase is something old.
[/quote]So are the cups for the C&B !
Piet Hartling does use a keycase and he's not that old. I suppose he knows what he does. :goof:
Message: Posted by: niva (Jan 22, 2005 03:07PM)
Not because someone is famous we should do as he does.

And yes. I agree with you. The Cups for the cups and balls are proppish. In fact I liked David Williamson's joke about them.
Message: Posted by: Steve Dusheck (Jan 22, 2005 07:34PM)
Werner, please stop saying my Ringer isn't as good as the key case with the reel. You have very bad manners. You can't talk like as an expert because you have never seen me perform Ringer. You have never seen a Ringer or read the many routines possible with it. Routines that can't be done with the key case and reel. As I said earlier there is no best ring to key ring trick, but there is a worst.

My best friend performs the Bloom gimmick using the Mike Close routine. That is great. The Porper/Biro trick is also a great effect. The handling used with these effects is more natural than snapping a ring into a clip between your cramped fingers just to make it vanish.

Don Alan was a very good friend of mine and a very good magician, when sitting at a table. I don't do any of the tricks he used. Fred Kaps was one of my favorites too but I don't do any of the tricks he used either. Both bought magic from me and Ken Brooke shared my letters with Fred Kaps. Just because they used specific tricks doesn't mean we must all use the same tricks. The great Bud Dietrick doesn't use the Koran reel/case. He uses his own creation called Chain Reaction. What could be more innocent and ordinary than a simple key chain? I do not judge tricks by the magicians who perform them. I judge tricks by the audible reactions of the audiences when I perform them.

The keyring I make is a standard keyring. I bought the original one at K-mart. The style is probably the most common in the US. I have sold a lot of them all over the world and, in 25 years, have never had a magician complain about the style of the keyring and the fob attached to it. Does everyone in Denmark use a leather case to hold their keys?

If the reel version was so good there wouldn't be so many other versions available. Most magicians find the one, non-reel, method that fits their personality and skill level and use that.

You said to only borrow a wedding band. Many people here cannot remove their wedding bands after several years of married life. Others believe it is bad luck to remove it. A lot of men don't wear rings. When performing table magic in restaurants you must take what you can get. The lady with the biggest diamond will usually lend you her ring because she wants to make sure everyone at the table saw it. When you do get a man's ring it is often very big. Too big to fit onto the small clip attached to the reel. Some of the tiny rings women lend you are too fragile to squeeze into the clip. I made my gimmick to handle any ring size.

My trick, that you belittle, goes over very well. There is a gasp of amazement, the occasional "Oh, my gawd." and someone says "Do it again."

What do you do when you are asked to do a trick a second time? Do you say "I can't because you might catch me."? The customer is always right so I do repeat the trick while telling them why I can't repeat it. When the ring is seen on the key ring again the effect is twice as strong.

The management at a local resort complained to our agent about a magician resetting his tricks before going to another table. The agent said we are hired to perform magic, not to stand in the corner resetting tricks. If your tricks are not instantly repeatable, you are not cost effective. Reset time is very important when the management limits your time per table to 6 or 8 minutes.

You claimed that doing it a second time means the audience will figure out how I did it. That is because you never saw it performed. When you are hired to do strolling magic at a party, there are always 2 or 3 people who follow you around because they enjoy the magic and because they want to figure out how you are doing it. I only perform tricks that can be repeated for the same audience while still fooling them.
I do not advertise Ringer. When magicians request information about it they are warned not to buy it unless the are working magicians. I didn't make it to sell and make money. I made it for my own use. I have had just about every version put out and have found my version the best for me. A lot of other, well known, magicians feel the same way. I do not take advantage of my famous customers by using their names to get additional sales.

Before you decided to find fault with Ringer you were finding fault with The Final Answer. That's another trick you do not have but write as an expert about. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but don't make comments about me or the magic I invent and perform since you are not an expert in that field.
Message: Posted by: niva (Jan 23, 2005 02:55AM)
Steve, can you please answer my question? Is the keyring the one where you have to drag the key all around to get it out? Or can I see a pic please, because I cannot understand what fob means? Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 23, 2005 02:58AM)
Steve please don't get annoyed.

I value your work and I know of many "tricks" you've invented and which I like very much.

My posting wasn't at all about telling anybody your "Ringer" is bad!

I'll not take part anymore re telling my opinion here re the Ring Flite, but I will point out 2 things that where the reason I posted as I did and the "why" I do prefer the classical method.

1. Any method to attach a ring to either a keycase or another keyholder by going south with the guilty hand to attach the ring "I" try to avoid.

2. Especially re a keyring -used in "Ringer" - I have to state, that a keyring is NOT very common in that part of Europe I live.

That about does frame the "why" of my firm opinion.
I have mine, others have theirs. They did let me know. I did let them know mine.

That's actually all that it is about.

Don't mix TFA with "ringer". re TFA, so many people like it, so why bother I don't?

Apart from this, there are a few others that neither are in favour of it, at least not at it's price, which wasn't my argument, but is John M.'s.

So please forgive me, my opinion was re the principle of handling the ring flite and not about your product, it was just mentioned by some (nice) guys including Vinny and it is OK with me they like it.

It is the principle of going south with the guilty hand compared to the cleaness of the original handling that I dislike, and that doesn't soley go for the "Ringer", but for a lot of other similar products using the 'manual' method.

So, please don't be annoyed. Your products have always been great and well thought out, let's just say in this case I dislike the "going south" principle.

Have a nice Sunday and safe the time re speculating about my opinion, there are more people liking that product then disliking. So why care? It's just "my" opinion and I've explain the "why".
Message: Posted by: Socrates (Feb 15, 2005 05:04PM)
Greetings!

I always thought a Thumb Tip was pretty groovy!

Socrates

'Simplify!' - Henry David Thoreau :die:
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Apr 5, 2005 08:54PM)
Well I just got ringer and I like the key ring and ive been reading the handiling and the method and it seems to be exactly what ive been looking for. Thanks to Vin for suggesting it.
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Apr 10, 2005 06:01AM)
Sure, the keyring in Ringer isn't the most common type used in the U.S., but everyone here has seen keyrings of this type. I still prefer Ringer.

As for Bloom's Flying Ring, it's not bad if the ring is small. I didn't care for it because I like the option of using larger rings.