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Topic: Cerberus
Message: Posted by: Wes65 (Oct 10, 2007 11:11PM)
I bought Todd Lassen's Cerberus gimmick from a Café member. Just got it in yesterday. This gimmick is everything I thought it would be. The craftsmanship is outstanding. I've worked up a couple of routines for it plus I received a DVD of routines by David Neighbors.

I generally use soft Morgan dollars. I toss them around freely. I love the sound they make and I make as much noise as possible to make it clear that the coins are not gimmicked. I don't use many gimmicks. When I go from ungaffed to gaffed coins I am afraid that it is too obvious that I am handling the coins differently. This is one of the reasons (along with the fact that there are stronger routines that do not require gaffs) that I no longer use my hoppin half gimmick.

I don't want to change the way I work when not using gaffs. My solution right now is to begin with the gimmick coins and then, just when the spectators might be thinking gaffs are involved, work in the ungimmicked coins. But then again, on second thought, I could toss the ungimmicked coins around by way of introducing them, work in the gimmick and create a stronger effect towards the end. After the coins have been in play for awhile there would be no need to continue to prove that they are real.

How do those of you who have these type of gimmicks move them in and out of play seamlessly without changing you pace or handling?
Message: Posted by: dncmagic (Oct 10, 2007 11:41PM)
I keep my johnson ex[ nested on a coin (usually a F*****r)in my pocket at all times that way its on a coin so if I need it it is there. I know people worry it might damage the shell but that's what an english penny and ang ring are for, I have never had a problem with my shell and I've carried it like that since I got it 18 months ago. I actually also use my f*****r as a regular coin more than its intended purpouse
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Oct 11, 2007 07:54AM)
You may want to check out Dan Watkins' "Coin Man Walking" DVD Wes. He has routines where he lets the spectators examine the "real" coins before doing the routine, then he breaks out the gaffs, does the routine, gets rid of the gaffs and then lets the spectators examine the "real" coins again after he performs the routine.

Since I have seen Dan's DVD I have arranged "all" my routines the same basic way if I am using gaffs. I make it possible for the spectators to examine the coins before and after my performance if they desire. I work it in to my practice sessions, so I am well prepared before performing and so there are no surprises I didn't count on.....
Message: Posted by: Wes65 (Oct 11, 2007 11:27AM)
Dnc, I know what you mean....that is something that I've considered.

Fingers, I've looked at the "Coin Man Walking" many times. One concern is that the routines may require gaffs that I do not own. I'm really trying to limit the gaffs I use. However, if he teaches a good way to arrange and handle gaffs it would be worth the price!
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Oct 11, 2007 11:59AM)
Hi Wes,
That's Way I have said That " You not only have to know how to do a trick
But WHEN To do A trick" I start out With real coins And Do A coin roll. I think
That shows Skill! Ie. Wow he's good He don't need gaffs! The Old Masters Use to say " The Only One who can Get Realy Away with the Judicious use of a Gaff Is Some one who does not need one" I talk a lot about ringing in a shell in my Coinjurering DVD. So frist show your good And Them ring in the Gaff!
And Yea I all ways Just toss My gaffs around. Ii Worked for years On makeing it look like there Just Coins! And Have come up with lots of sells To say So!
Message: Posted by: Wes65 (Oct 11, 2007 01:14PM)
Thanks David, that's why I bought the gaffs.

I think that is where my "fear" of gaffs came from. I started out using only (cheap to mid-priced) gaffs and could do little without them. Then I fell in love with coin work, developed some skills, and became afraid of my gaffs.

Have you damaged many gaffs tossing them around?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Oct 11, 2007 04:24PM)
If I'm using four coins and a S***l, I perform a roll-out, keeping control of the gimmick with my thumb and fore-finger. Also, with the precise workmanship being put into the making of S****s, I sometimes do a coin roll with the gimmick on the coin.
Message: Posted by: jimmyj (Oct 11, 2007 04:53PM)
Wes,
I, like you, sorta have the Cerberus gaff. ( Mine is on order and should be here in 3 weeks. I do have David's International Coin Routines, which features this gimmick. However, in my estimation, when using gaffed coins,each one has it's own set of handling technique's and peculiarities. For instance:

I introduce to a routine an expanded shell differently than I would a C/S/B.
I would introduce a Cerberus differently than I would a Triple Threat.
I would introduce a Siamese Coin gaff differently than, let's say a Sun and Moon.

The routine dictates the different approaches. By the way, I just purchased a CFWM, in Morgans, and have already dinged-up the Shell, by inadverently letting it drop on my wooden floor. I managed to pull out the ding, by hand, very carefully, no pliers, but man, was I PO'd.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Wes65 (Oct 11, 2007 08:46PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-11 17:53, jimmyj wrote:
By the way, I just purchased a CFWM, in Morgans, and have already dinged-up the Shell, by inadverently letting it drop on my wooden floor. I managed to pull out the ding, by hand, very carefully, no pliers, but man, was I PO'd.
[/quote]

Bummer....something else to fear as I move into high priced gimmicks.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Oct 11, 2007 11:02PM)
Wes65,
You could look into Magic Makers new plastic coins although they may shatter before they dent! :fruity:
Mick
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Oct 11, 2007 11:35PM)
Don;t feel bad I never drop gaffs..... except the first day I have them. no kidding everytime first day there I am getting out dents...
Message: Posted by: jquackc (Oct 12, 2007 03:12AM)
When I got my first Johnson shell I dropped it on concrete denting the sides. I learned to practice stand up routines over carpet, grass, and my bed. I practice other routines over a close up mat. I have dropped gaffs many times since, but haven't dented them again. I learned fast. If you buy Lassen gaffs, then don't use them over concrete, unless you're very confident in not dropping them. I would substitute your walk-around items with less expensive gaffs if possible unless performing over carpet. I know this isn't an option for Cerebrus but you can apply this to your other gaffs. I have yet to get a lassen shell set, but when I do, don't see myself using it outside or for standup routines. That will be the stage for my Johnsons. (My sascos don't have a stage anymore because they look funny).
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Oct 12, 2007 03:56AM)
You guys need to hear Dan Watkins' cautionary tale.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Oct 12, 2007 09:14AM)
Dan's cautionary tale: At the first NYC Coin Magic Seminar that took place at Marc DeSouza's, I was standing outside of Chili's on the concrete talking shop with the guys.

Somehow I got to showing Mike Rubinstein the contents of my Morgan Dollar coin purse.

Inside it had a 4 Morgans with a shell and a locking slider that fit all 4 coins, and a 3CM that matched the set. It is a very versitile coin set as you might imagine.

So anyway, I have all the coins laying on my open palm, with everything unshelled to show it all, and one of the Morgans slips off my hand.

I should have just let the coin fall, but instinct was to try to catch it.

While attempting to catch my falling coin, I managed to drop everything onto the concrete.

Coins and shells fling everytwhere, hit the coarse concrete, coins roll around, etc. It was not pretty. Shells got bent, etc. The good news is I was able to work everything back into shape, so everything ultimately survived.

Doing that in a group of coin magicians is like running fingernails down a chalkboard.

I think everyone there was feeling pain.

In an unrelated tale: For those of you who own my Coinvanish Volume 1 and 2 notes, I have routines in there that use a 3 coin nest (cut coin, shell, expanded shell). Well, I never really tipped it in the books, but what I was actually using was one of the early Triple Threats a couple of years before Todd released it to the public. He asked me to keep the magnetic properties quiet, so I never talked about it in my books...

But anyway... Around that time I had some knee surgery and I just so happened to be peddling an excersise bike for rehab, and I was messing around with the Triple Threat. I was over carpet, so I thought I was safe. On a sleight gone bad, the nested set flips out of my fingers and happened to perfectly fly to a nearby empty pottery pot that my wife had for decoration. All I hear is clink clang clank of the set un-nesting and banging around the inside of the pottery. That messed the gimmick up bad. Almost had to send it back to Todd, but I again, I was able to work the dents out and save it.

This stuff does not like to be dropped!
Message: Posted by: Wes65 (Oct 12, 2007 09:47AM)
Dan, With your experience repairing your own gaffs, do you now repair coin gaffs on the side? LOL :)
Message: Posted by: jimmyj (Oct 12, 2007 09:55AM)
Dan,
Thanks for the cautionary tale. It made me smile. I once was re-setting my gaffs and coins in a restaurant washroom, and poof, they all ended up in the garbage can next to the sink. There I was on my hands and knees pulling everything out of the can with stuff scattered all over the place. Should've seen the look on some of the patrons faces as they entered, let alone some of my friends who went looking for me. Of course my answer was," Oh, nothing"

Jim
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Oct 12, 2007 10:24AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-12 10:47, Wes65 wrote:
Dan, With your experience repairing your own gaffs, do you now repair coin gaffs on the side? LOL :)
[/quote]

Actually, I have had some local guys have me fix their messed up gaffs. If you drop a a multi-shell gaff like Cerebrus or Triple Threat or 3CM, you are going to have problems.

I have posted the technique I use to fix dented shells:

1. Fold a silk and put the shell on one side, the coin on the other an squeeze it together. Then open the silk to pop them apart.
2. Put the coin in the shell and roll the edges very firmly on a hard surface.
3. Repeat, repeat, repeat

Step 2 presses the shell edges around a coin to help press out dents. When you do step 2, it makes the shell too snug, so you do step #1 to loosen the shell edges again.

Another thing I do to try to push out a dent is put a smaller coin inside the shell (a half dollar inside a dented dollar shell). Push the half dollar as hard as you can against the inner wall of the dollar shell. This will help push out a dent from the inside.

If you do the above enough you can work out dents in the sides.

What makes nesting shells more problematic is, your inner coin could get some type of a dent. So you need to make the shell that directly covers it a little looser to not get stuck on the inner coin. Now you have to make the outer shell looser to fit the inner shell. It just makes things tough. If you dent your set too bad, it might not be fixable.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Oct 12, 2007 10:26AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-12 10:55, jimmyj wrote:
they all ended up in the garbage can next to the sink. [/quote]
I guess that is better than ending up IN the sink.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Oct 13, 2007 01:29PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-11 14:14, Wes65 wrote:
Thanks David, that's why I bought the gaffs.

I think that is where my "fear" of gaffs came from. I started out using only (cheap to mid-priced) gaffs and could do little without them. Then I fell in love with coin work, developed some skills, and became afraid of my gaffs.

Have you damaged many gaffs tossing them around?
[/quote]

No I don't Toss them that hard! :) I had one guy When I was doing something on the floor stomp on a shell! :( But it was ok afterwards! :)