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Topic: Tail Coat
Message: Posted by: T.G Kenny (Oct 16, 2007 11:33AM)
Hi guys !
I am planning to custom-make a new Tail-Coat(Is that the way you called it?) .
I've seen many magicians with Tail-coat and it is very cool ! Lol .
Anyway , can anyone tell me more about what a tail-coat does ?
Can I hold cards with it ? I usually hold my cards under my belt when doing my card act.

Please shed some light

Regards
Message: Posted by: Vibono Magic (Oct 16, 2007 01:08PM)
The tail coat by itself is only a sort of dress coat woren during and at the turn of the 19th century. The dress by it self consists of a pair of black pants with a outer stripe on them and the tailcoat. If you want to be classical there are a few rules you must folow.
The tail coat has a short front ant two tails at the back. Both pants and coat should be black and is most often made in wool. There should also be worn with white dress shirt, white bowtie and white vest al three in ehite and the same piké. The talcoat should have a white cloth hanky in the breastpocket. Also you must have black painted shoes and black socks.
There are some people that wear a tailcoat with black tie and black vest this is however only acceppted if you are going to a funeral. White vest and Black bow tie is only woren by matredees at resturants.
The shirt that goes with the tailcoat should have cuffliks.
This is a classical tailcoat
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/cirkusakademien/Frack.jpg

Jonas Karlsson
Vibono Magic
Sweden
Message: Posted by: montemagic (Oct 16, 2007 08:20PM)
If you would like some wonderful insight into creating tailcoat pockets, read Tommy Wonder The Books of Wonder vol 2. You can also wear a cummerbun which will hold your cards and give you a belly servant (also discussed in Tommy's book) for vanishing and switching objects. A vest also opens you to TONS of possibilities. There are several publications that cover the subject, I found Tommy to have the best insight into all of the misdirection involved with costuming and your interaction with your costume.
Message: Posted by: scaevola (Oct 16, 2007 08:35PM)
What is the name of the deep pockets that are in the tails?

Prefronds?

Somebody help me out.
Message: Posted by: T.G Kenny (Oct 16, 2007 09:44PM)
Alright ! Will checkout the book sooner or later :)
Anyway , where do you guys keep your cards most of the time ? I mean when you are performing your card act ? I usually keep my cards under my belt behind my back with paper clips .

Regards,
Kenny
Message: Posted by: montemagic (Oct 16, 2007 09:47PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-16 21:35, scaevola wrote:
What is the name of the deep pockets that are in the tails?

Prefronds?

Somebody help me out.
[/quote]

Profondes
Message: Posted by: graywolf (Oct 17, 2007 05:39AM)
Topits..Howard
Message: Posted by: The Great Danton (Oct 17, 2007 11:09AM)
I was actually going to post something like this, I hope you don't mind if I ask a question in this thread so as to the forums from getting cluttered.

My question is actually about multiplying balls, Like PseudoManipulator, I would like to wear a tailcoat (I don't plan on making it though). I usually hold my multiplying balls under the edge of my jacket, however, I don't see how I could do this with a tailcoat. Would I place them behind the tails? Also, does Tommy Wonders book cover this?



Thanks so much,
Danton
Message: Posted by: T.G Kenny (Oct 17, 2007 11:55AM)
Yes , I wanted to ask that question too !
Thanks T.G Danton !
Anyone please shed some light !

Thanks
Message: Posted by: The Great Danton (Oct 17, 2007 12:12PM)
Haha..it seems magical minds think alike!
Message: Posted by: montemagic (Oct 17, 2007 12:12PM)
With a tailcoat you wear either a vest or cummerbun, both of which provide you with places for storing and ditching balls. You could of course hide anything behind the tails, as longs as your misdirection allows you to go back and retrieve them. Tommy Wonder's books do not specifically cover body loads, only those that are used in his effects.

He does cover his manipulation routine that he performed in the 70's seen here : http://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/510465/tommy_wonder_in_70s.swf
He does his own billiard ball routine in this act.
Message: Posted by: The Great Danton (Oct 17, 2007 01:17PM)
Ah, so you would use the vest/cummerbun to hold the balls until you need them. Thanks.

Off topic a little, where would you be able to find a book or dvd which covers body loads for billiard balls?


Back to Tailcoats: PseudoManipulator, Are you ever planning on using doves in your act? just wondered, because if you are planning on having your coat custom made, it would be a good idea to go ahead and have it set up for that.

I am guessing you would also hold candles in your vest/cummerbun when wearing a tailcoat, correct? I use candles in my act currently, so this is something I would need to be able to have in a body load.

Danton
Message: Posted by: montemagic (Oct 17, 2007 03:46PM)
The best info I can say about body loads is to see where your hands go naturally during your performance, and then create your load locations based on that. You can use a ball clip (or any other clip for candles, cards, etc...) anywhere in your jacket, it doesn't have to be at the waistline. One thing I do is stand in front of a mirror and go through the motions as I would want them to look, then devise a way to make everything else fit into that. You don't want your presentation to revolve around your gimmicks; your gimmicks should support your presentation.


~Matt
Message: Posted by: montemagic (Oct 17, 2007 03:51PM)
Watch Tommy Wonder's vanish of the egg and lemon at the end of this routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFqLvPaQOsQ
Message: Posted by: The Great Danton (Oct 17, 2007 03:57PM)
Thanks Matt...I agree with 100% about not letting your gimmicks run the show.
Message: Posted by: graywolf (Oct 17, 2007 03:58PM)
Geffory Buckingham..his video covers it all..Cordially,Howard
Message: Posted by: The Great Danton (Oct 17, 2007 04:04PM)
Hey Thanks Howard. I will look into that.

Maybe after my next gig I'll be able to think about placing an order. *laugh*

Danton
Message: Posted by: graywolf (Oct 17, 2007 04:24PM)
I forgot..Ron MacMillan's SYMPHONY OF THE SPHERES.He ends up wiht a 14 ball production.Lewis Ganson wrote the book.All holders ect. are explained..Cordially,Howard
Message: Posted by: T.G Kenny (Oct 17, 2007 09:04PM)
Hey Danton ,
Yeap magical minds do think alike ! lmao

Yes , I planned to use dove for my act , unfortunately it is very difficult for me to obtain a dove in my town . I am wondering can I order my doves somewhere else on the internet ? I think that is not possible . Sigh ...

Anyway , I am getting more and more interested in Tail-Coat !

Best ,
Kenny
Message: Posted by: graywolf (Oct 18, 2007 05:48AM)
I forgot..THE NEW EXPERT BILLIARD BALL MANIPULATION by BURLING HULL.It is a Mickey Hades publication..Howard
Message: Posted by: Vibono Magic (Oct 21, 2007 07:00AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-17 13:12, montemagic wrote:
With a tailcoat you wear either a vest or cummerbun, both of which provide you with places for storing and ditching balls.
[/quote]

For the Classical look you would never wear a cummerbun to a tailcoat that's for a tuxedo jacket.
For loads goes you can have them under the vest, under the coat, behind the tails.
David Costi from Italy have made a video for Ron McMillan explaining his manipulationact wearing a Tailcoat, he also shows you the holders for the balles, coins, cards and tophat and where to put them.
Message: Posted by: T.G Kenny (Oct 22, 2007 02:24AM)
Thank you V. Magic , where can I get the David Costi's video about his manipulation act ?

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Paul Jester (Oct 22, 2007 01:28PM)
If you're getting your first tails custom made I wouldn't put too much in it. You're going to change it a lot if you're working out a routine, especially a ball routine. You don't want extra pockets and gaffs that you don't need, even profondés can flash.

You need two main adaptations to your tails if you're using them for manips (ignoring doves, that's a whole different ball game!). First where the tails come down from the jacket you want to move slightly forwards to prevent flashing of tail loads when your arms are lifted, also I stitched mine so they don't seperate as high up, they look like they do, but that stops holders sticking out inbetween. Second is extra fabric in the back, this is important for ball workers as if you've got 2" balls on your bum, and the jacket pulling in on your back, you look like you have a huge bum. So you want to stop the back pulling in and let the jacket hang from your shoulders. There is a third popular adjustment, and that is to make the tails a little longer than usual. Cardini (and later Fred Astaire) went against fashion to do this. Cardini because it covered the loads better (I believe...) and Astaire because he loved the swish as he danced.

Your rules on tail coats are that you should have 1" of white cuff showing and 1" of waistcoat along the bottom edge of the jacket. They should be worn with a white dress shirt, white backless waistcoat, white bowtie, matching trousers with ribbon, held up by white braces. And obviously polished black shoes and socks. That is the standard, or course all things can be altered for artistic/technical reasons.

As for your other pockets I'd suggest pinning them in for now, and dealing with them later. Take for example a profondé. If you use it to vanish a dove it has to be much bigger and lower than if your picking up a silk from it. Profondés are better for ditches than steals (due to the movement of the tails), but under a cloak it's fine.

To steal cards you can't stick them under a belt because you wont be wearing one, you'll need to invest in, or make, one of the various holders. Again pin this in place until you're getting booked specifically for the act as is, until then all things can, and most probably will change.

You can steal from every edge of fabric in tails, and people do. Recommended reading is Geoffrey Buckinghams "It's Easier Than You Think" If you can track down a copy of it, otherwise his DVD is a must have. One last thing, make sure you get evening tails and not morning...

Good Luck,
Paul
Message: Posted by: The Great Danton (Oct 22, 2007 03:01PM)
Aren't Morning Tails white?
Message: Posted by: Paul Jester (Oct 24, 2007 03:43PM)
Usually a grey coat, and stripped trousers. They're most commonly seen at Weddings on the groom.
Paul
Message: Posted by: dahih beik (Oct 25, 2007 05:03PM)
I love to work with tailcoat I design mine the only issue at least for me is I start my dove act or my manipulation act and then have to change it to continue with the rest of my act . working with tailcoat is an art by itself it opens the doors for loadings and diching to name some useful resorces check out tony clark dvds , general grants work , and most of all shimada .. easeyer than you think 3 volumes are also a good resorce .
Message: Posted by: T.G Kenny (Oct 26, 2007 05:08AM)
What are the DVDs name again ? General Grants ? Easeyer Than You Think ?

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Vibono Magic (Oct 30, 2007 09:49AM)
Davide Costis Video can be found at International magic in London.
Message: Posted by: shestack (Nov 3, 2007 06:31PM)
One thing everyone is forgetting to mention is...
if you are less than 5 ' 8" tall or weigh more than 165 lbs FORGET wearing tails as they will not be flattering to be seen in on stage .

The late Channing Pollock over 6 feet & always around 160 lbs used to have his cut for him by Master savil row tailors. he said then ran about $5800 .00 & this was back in the 50s


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