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Topic: Jeff Dunham & Achmed the Dead Terrorist
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (Oct 28, 2007 07:32AM)
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y-waHLz-TU]A very funny video of Jeff Dunham, my favorite ventriloquist, you may have seen him and Walter the surly old man, or Peanut whatever Peanut is, but here he is with Achmed The Dead Terrorist. I loved it lol.[/url]
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 10:38AM)
Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion I find this video offensive to both Muslims and Jews. If this character were done with any other ethnic culture it'd be chastised but these days it seems to be Ok to bash Muslims.

Jeff is mega talented. I love all his other work. This is bad taste however.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2007 10:52AM)
I thought it a bit odd.

It is a way for a caucasion man to tell racist jokes and get away with it.

That is creative to say the least, but it is quite offensive if you extrapolate it.

I think Comedy Central didn't care as they WANTED controversy, but didn't really get much.

Interesting how it is ok to make fun of those you hate. THAT is ok.
Message: Posted by: Big Jeff (Oct 28, 2007 10:56AM)
Tim,

MAYBE not all muslims are terrorists, but ALL THE TERORISTS that attacked the US are MUSLIMS.

How come muslims are protected from parody and critizm but christians aren't?

I KNOW, Christians don't have riots and burn cars and kill people when Jesus or the church is made fun of like the "peace loving" muslims do.
Message: Posted by: Jerrine (Oct 28, 2007 11:04AM)
...and we're off!
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 11:26AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 12:04, Jerrine wrote:
...and we're off!
[/quote]

Thanks Jerrine,

You made my point. The topic is so controversial it will create a thread that will get out of control and deleted.

Now on to this topic...

Firstly Jeff.. You are wrong. Not all terrorists are Muslim. I don't think Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were Muslim. I don't think the Unibomber was a Muslim either.

Lets stick with that theme however for a moment. Japan attacked that US once. Does that make it ok to do a stereotype of Japanese with buck teeth and slanty eyes? I think not. It was considered ok once but time has passed and we now all admit it was as wrong then as it is now. The same goes for this.

I never said Muslims should be protected from parody. Stereotypes like this is not parody though.

I think it best to leave rioting out of it as all religions and races have members who are guilty of such bad behavior. Saying rioting is a Muslim thing is also racist.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2007 11:29AM)
Ask the English how many of the IRA are Muslim.

Ask the Spanish how many of the Basque Separatists are Muslim. (I may have spelled Basque wrong)

To say all terrorists are Muslim is just goofy. To say all of of whom did 9/11 are Muslim may be close.

Like Tim said lets not spin out of control.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 11:39AM)
Good Point Danny,

Before Jeff comes back with.." But those terrorists didn't attact the US" Let me add this quote from a Terrorist who battled the US.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

So Jeff.. does this mean all Christians can also be called Terrorists because the US's biggest Terrorist was a Christian??? That would be wrong and hateful just like this routine is.

I'm a Christian and that would insult me. I don't need to be a Christian to know that racial stereotyping is wrong regardless of who its directed towards.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 28, 2007 11:45AM)
Tim, I'm sure it was an oversight that Muslims and Jews are mentioned but not the Catholics who's Priests are defined as pedophiles.


Thought the bit was a tad long and lethargic, compared to the comedy I grew up with from Don Rickles and others, pretty tame in the offensive dept...but since the game has become so 'sensitive', an OLD Catskills joke about two pennies becomes hard core racism fodder.

Jeff is creatrive though and a terrific vent...thanks for the link Joey.

Note: My post was before all these others making me look stupid. That's ok. I don't care. I'm not of any racial profile whatsoever. :) I just hit the button slow.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 11:51AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 12:45, Doug Higley wrote:
Tim, I'm sure it was an oversight that Muslims and Jews are mentioned but not the Catholics who's Priests are defined as pedophiles.
[/quote]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for reminding me. That's 3 groups insulted in the routine not 2.
Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 28, 2007 12:22PM)
Vent/Puppeteer: Higley
Figure: Larry (Blond College Professor look with big glasses)

H: So Larry...I don't get it. You are a terrorist?

L: That's me. Ba Boom! Blow your butt up in a flat second.

H: But...you don't look Muslim...

L: I'm not you moron...I'm a plumber! Who writes your freakin' profiles? G Gordon Liddy?

H: You don't look like a Plumber...

L: Good grief...my butt crack normally gives it away...but wait...that annoying wedgy (looks around behind him) is your arm aint it...never mind.

H: But...

L: Exactly. So by your standards you can profile a terrorist by looking for the butt crack and snagging a Plumber...unless he has you for a wedgy...

H: Are you saying all Plumbers are terrorists?

L: Not all Plumbers are terrorists genius...and not all terrorists are Plumbers. (aside) So nobody should be offended by this bit depending on which they identify with...

H: I don't get it...

L: Your not supposed to...just when you think you have...BA BOOM!

H: What exactly is it you do?

L: Shmuck...I blow **** up...

H: Your a suicide bomber?

L: Good grief...do I look like I blew myself up? That's another guys act...

H: So I repeat what is it you do...

L: I told you...I blow **** up! Ba Boom!
I didn't say I was a good Plumber!


(for Tim and Danny)
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 12:36PM)
Big Jeff was clearly refering to the 911 attacks that were carried out by Muslims, endorsed by Muslims, and pretty much not called down by 'em. He never mentioned the Unibomber, who wasn't considered a terrorist nor was he attacking the "US" as an enity. McVie would be considered one perhaps but I don't recall if he has a broader scheme in mind other than the single bombing, which may or may not have been considered a terrorist act.

Someone brought up the priest that molested children. I don't recall any rallys anywhere in the world with thousands not only defending but advocating said molestations. I don't believe that a large percentage of Catholics believe their doctrine is calling out for them to molest children in order to obtain a higher level in heaven. Neither have I heard of a Bishop or anyone demanding the death of a cartoonist for making fun of priests or the pope. Also I do not believe the IRA has ever operated in the U.S. nor against the U.S., I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Simple fact is the individuals around most of the major conflicts in the world are Muslims. The most aggressive terror organizations operating today are Muslims and base their existance on their religion. Those are facts and while I would say that the vast majority of Muslims just want to do their thing and not bother anyone there is still a very large number that at minimum support the activities of their vicious and vile bretheren.

I shall now go and watch the puppet.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 12:47PM)
Magic Santa,

All this comment before you watched the video??? LOL

Actually Jeff never mentioned 911. He in fact said " All the terrorists who attacked the US."

Unibomber not ever considered a terrorist??? How bout this.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unibomber

Japan certainly attacked the US and there were MANY rallies in Japan supporting it. Can you answer my earlier question? Are Japanese stereotypes OK as well based on this same line of reasoning?


Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 28, 2007 12:54PM)
I know there is a sensitivity that may or may not be valid...we can call Swedish people Swedes and Polish people Pols and the British, Brits...but we can't call Japanese people Japs any more.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 01:03PM)
BINGO! That word was used so much as slander that it became slander. Each time it's said we are reminded of the sins of the past so its not used any more.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 01:04PM)
During World War 2 they DID go after the Japanese in cartons (see Bugs Bunny and Popeye) as well as the Germans and Italians. This is because they were the 'enemy' and in order to effectively go against an enemy you want to distinquish them so it is easier for Americans to fight them, Americans being kind and loving people for the most part (compared to societies that are of a more militarilistic or vicious nature). In the case of Japan they had a military based society at that point in time and it cost them dearly yet also gave the foundation to build upon and develope into an economic and manufacturing powerhouse. It should be noted that while the heavy bombing of Japanese cities was going on American pilots questioned the bombing of civilians, again because it goes against our nature. The response from the high command was that as a militarilistic society that ALL of Japan and ALL of the populace was viewed as a military target. The nation of Japan and its people were joked about, made into stereotypes, and it was justified because in war you go after the enemy and that is who they were. Before you jump on the act of locking up the Japanese Americans during WW2 (as well as Germans in some cases) I feel it was completely out of line but the motivation behind it was understandable....not the act. I lived in an area on the West Coast with a very large population of Japanese Americans and I have always viewed them to be no different than any other Americans and don't want anyone of Japanese ancenstory to think it was me that brought up Japan it was the other fellow.

My statements had nothing to do with the vent act but that is just a puppet, it was in response to your seeming claim that Muslims are just poor innocent folk that are getting attacked for no reason. El Grande Jeff mentioned terrorist that attacked the US specifically, that would indicate an attack originating outside of the US. Please, in your wisdom and knowledge of such things, provide a list of terrorist organizations that have attacked the U.S. that originated outside the U.S. that are not based on the Muslim religion. I'm sure you have them listed or can find them all over the net. I'll give you a hint if you want to go back a number of years, the Puerto Rican independance guys, then again, Puerto Rico is technically part of the US. I eagerly await you justifying your statement against Jeff.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 01:06PM)
Whoa...'sins of the past', are you saying the US sinned in fighting Japan?
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 01:16PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 14:06, MagicSanta wrote:
Whoa...'sins of the past', are you saying the US sinned in fighting Japan?
[/quote]

No..but does " internment camp" mean anything? However I was referring to the stereotyping during the day. It was not fair then to the people of Japan or to the Japanese Americans who had to endure it. War is no excuse.

Back to the muslim thing. It doesn't matter that the terrorist groups outside the us are all muslims. Not all Muslims are terrorists and that's what matters.

Not all men are women abusers but women abusers are men. Have you ever been treated like crap because you are a man? I have. Its not fun. Tried to make a donation to a womens shelter and couldn't get past the man hating receptionist behind the bullet proof glass at the reception counter.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Pete Legend (Oct 28, 2007 01:16PM)
Lol I just thought it was'nt funny.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 01:29PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 14:04, MagicSanta wrote:
Before you jump on the act of locking up the Japanese Americans during WW2 (as well as Germans in some cases) I feel it was completely out of line but the motivation behind it was understandable....not the act. I lived in an area on the West Coast with a very large population of Japanese Americans and I have always viewed them to be no different than any other Americans and don't want anyone of Japanese ancenstory to think it was me that brought up Japan it was the other fellow.

[/quote]

Sorry Magic Santa,

I missed this before I posted about internment camps. You logic is conflicting. You agree that judging an entire race by the acts of others in their race is wrong but ALSO think its OK to do the same to an entire religion based on the acts of others in their religion?????

Yes.. it was me that brought up the Japanese. ANY Japanese person who was in anyway connected to that racist segregation will be thankful to me for not letting it happen again without protest.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 01:57PM)
Islam is not a race so there is no way it can be refered to as racism. I've not said anything insulting to Muslims, neither has Big Jeff. Facts are facts though and here is the rub....your desire to embrace the whole world as one people united in love and understand means absolutely nothing outside of your own physical reach. If someone has a gun and they plan on shooting you your position on things doesn't have anything to do with him shooting you or not. Some times you have to fight because the other guy is forcing the situation.

You continue with the Japanese. There was a significant difference between the Japanese in Japan and the Americans of Japanese descent living in the United States (by the way, why is it the other countries who interned their Japanese and German residents never mentioned? Guess it isn't as fun as pointing fingers at the United States). The US was the US as a country of relative freedoms, not perfect at that time but who was? Japan was a country run by an Emporor viewed as a God by the populace and a military dictator basically and as a warrior culture which had a war mentality. They are not the same people, to believe that Japanese Americans are the same as Japanese is a class of racism on your part. Let me assure you that the Japanese Americans I was raised around (our high school football team was about 70% Japanese American) were nothing at all like the wonderful people of Japan in any manner except for physical appearance and even then there was a different look and way they carried themselves. Another thing, they were Americans not Japanese unless they were born in and citizens of Japan. That is another unique thing about a handful of countries, I could be born in and raised in Japan and I would never, ever, be Japanese, but anyone can become an American.

Keep riding your tall horse thinking that you are defending the militant Muslims out there because if they had their way you and your family would be just as dead as those that were crushed on 9-11. Also don't worry about the Japanese Americans, no one is locking them up anywhere unless they break a law. For you to think, as you imply, that the US is just waiting to do so in order for you to jump up and say "No! Don't lock them up, eh!" is utter nonsense.

By the way, the internment of Japanese Americans and the loss of their land, which was a terrible event, wasn't a policy througout the US. It took place on the West Coast, the rounding up of Germans took place on the East Coast, I'll let you figure out why that geographical dicernment was made. My father told me that in NYC where he lived, in a German area, all the German accents quickly vanished and Dieter became Danny.

You state I judged and entire race, looks to me like you were the one doing so.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 02:06PM)
Magic Santa,

Too make you happy I'll replace the word Racism with Prejudice. How bout that?

Why do you keep thinking I have anything against the Japanese? I'm simply saying it was once politically acceptable to stereotype them and now were are supposed to be above that. Above that means no more stereotyping..not simply switching groups.

Now you're saying there are two types of Japanese? Why can't there be two types of Muslims??? My point was that they were ALL being judged by the actions of some.

I don't think we are all one big happy world but I do know that ethic stereotypes like this don't help the situation much.

The US got mentioned only because Big Jeff mentioned it. I was only responding to his post. Canada was just a guilty. We had our own internment camps here.

Who said I was defending the militant Muslims. I'm defending the Billion Muslims not connected with such nonsense.

Your comment on Deiter becoming Danny is most interesting. I grew up in Dresden ( Canada) and only a short drive away you can get to Kitchener which before WW1 was known as Berlin.

The G in Edward G Robinson stood for Goldstein. The stereotypes of that day meant denying your religion publicly was necessary to put food on the table if that table depended on public opinion.

My only point is that this shouldn't have happened and should not be happening today.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 02:46PM)
Prejudiced is better because racism implies the belief in ones race being superior to others (oddly this is a trait often attributed to Asian races). I didn't say you had something against the Japanese people, I was informing you that there is a significant difference between Japanese Americans and Japanese as in those born and raised in Japan. It is because culture has more in play than race. Just because they look similar doesn't make them the same.

Interesting, a billion Muslims and it is considered by experts that a mear ten percent are 'militant or support the militant position'. That would mean there are only a measly ten million people out there that wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if you were to be blown to lil' chunks in their name. Ten million...that is roughly one third the population of Canada, seems like a lot of people to me.

Just keep in mind, no on anywhere on this thread said anything about all of anyone being anything yet you keep defending against it. Keep fighting windmills.

PS: if you have a problem with the puppet guy contact him.
Message: Posted by: Brian Proctor (Oct 28, 2007 02:52PM)
I just watched the video. I thought it was hilarious!!! Just relax everyone.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 02:53PM)
[quote]

Interesting, a billion Muslims and it is considered by experts that a mear ten percent are 'militant or support the militant position'. That would mean there are only a measly ten million people out there that wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if you were to be blown to lil' chunks in their name. Ten million...that is roughly one third the population of Canada, seems like a lot of people to me.

P.S.: if you have a problem with the puppet guy contact him.
[/quote]
So that makes 990,000,000 innocent Muslims that have to watch this stuff stereo type them? Its ok to rag on them because of the other 10 percent???

FYI.. I did contact Jeff through his website. No response. I expect it got lost with many others.

Best,

Tim


For the record. [b]Both[/b] Magic Santa and I were wrong in our math.

10% of one billion is 100 million, not 10 million. That leaves 900 million left and not 990 million as I posted. LOL

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Oct 28, 2007 03:02PM)
Oh wow, the bit is funny, I have this DVD. That's my Opinion, the "Ill [b]KILL[/b]you" is Hilarious. I honestly think we are way to sensitive now adays, my opinion ill leave it at that.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 03:16PM)
100 million hate filled Muslims? That makes me feel better. I doubt many of them watched the show in question so no harm no foul.

I have an announcement to make:

During World War Two the racist collective known as Canada interned people of Japanese decent....a total of 22,000 of them in fact. Canada, forcing people from their homes and locking them into camps. Unlike the US, which kept families together, Canada sent the men to.....WORK CAMPS with out their families. It should also be noted that the US allowed the interned to file suits against the policy, no record of this in Canada, and that the US ended the practice in 1944, five years before the hate filled Canadians. The US also paid money to the Japanese Americans and others of Japanese ancenstory detained (not enough in my opinion because many lost farm lands worth millions today) and issued an apology, again I could find no record of this occuring in Canada. It should also be noted that the thousands of German, Italian, and other European (that is right kids, caucasians) that were put into internment camps were not paid nor did they, as of 2004, receive an official apology.

I swear before God and man that I shall NEVER allow Canada to take advantage of a race of people like that again!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2007 03:16PM)
Funy no doubt.

I think my point was that it is odd that if it was not a vent doll and just Jeff, he never would get away with it now would he?

Everyone who attacked on 9/11 was a Muslim. That is a fact and not in dispute. (Well if you leave out crazy conspiracy theories with George W. Bush LOL)

Not EVERY MUSLIM attackted the US on that day though. This is the only distinction I think needs to be made. Not every Muslim demonstrates against the US.

If we paint all of them with the one brush, call it what you will it is wrong. I think this kind of encourages that sort of thing.

BUT in all fairness in deference to the country in which I proudly reside, he has the right to say it!
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 03:18PM)
My favorite in law, a Palestinian, says the Mosad attacked on 911. I just don't discuss it with him, kind of sad really.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 03:48PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 16:16, MagicSanta wrote:
100 million hate filled Muslims? That makes me feel better. I doubt many of them watched the show in question so no harm no foul.

[/quote]

There you go again avoiding the issue. What about the other 900 million? Will you address that? You admit there are 900 million innocent bystanders yet remain silent on that regard. Forget all the attempts at misdirection with political spin... lets hear your wisdom on the other 900 million.

The harm is not in Muslims watching it. The harm is in non muslims watching it and having it validate or insight stereotypes.

The Mossad reference from your Palestinian friend is interesting. He doesn't support terrorism and want to dance in the streets about 911? Could it be he is not an extremist and one of those 900 million? I wonder how he'd like this performance.

Would you ask him for a comment?

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 28, 2007 04:11PM)
I just watched it myself, and was frankly surprised at how innocuous it is. Most of the jokes are very generic--double entendres and such, like the couple of jokes at the end--and are in no way Muslim specific. The puppet (COOL PUPPET!) has a Middle East accent. Hmmm. Oh, and the virgins joke. Other than that, I don't really see how it is stereotyping anybody--other than a very small group (Middle Eastern suicide bombers) who really do exist. Why should this small group of people be beyond our barbs of ridicule? I say have at 'em.

I mean, come on Tim! If you and I can laugh at Mel Brooks and Tim Conway (not to mention this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5l5UIbSpc), then we can't very well get all sensitive all of the sudden. Or are Germans somehow exempt from our making fun of them by adopting fake German accents and such? Hey, I have my American accent made of almost daily by some of my students. Of course, they're going to suffer for it during finals....

As far as taste goes, compared to the popular culture being consumed by our young people this comedy bit is exceedingly tame. And a little bad taste is often the source of some of the funniest humor ever devised by man.

And as I said: COOL PUPPET!

Jeff
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 04:28PM)
Timothy, I can't speak about Canada with its history of locking up people based on race but I've not heard anyone here wanting to lock up Muslims and I'm not sure where you get the idea from. The guy has the right to do the act he wants and you and everyone else can either watch it or not. I know in Canada you all restrict what is on radio etc but we don't really do that here to the extent you all do. You went after Big Jeff, you were looking for loopholes to do so, and you have no basis to go after him. You are in a snit over a puppet!

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm just overwhelmed with your support of all people around the world and if space aliens existed I'm sure you would be standing right there with them. You sir are a modern day Martin Luther King Jr (I would have picked a Canadian but I never heard of a Canadian civil rights leader), you are enlightened, you are an angel on Earth. There, do you feel better? Can you now knock off trying to build an igloo out of an ice cube?
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 04:32PM)
I forgot, you wanted my wisdom on the 'other 900 million'. I'd like to see them control the 100 million that are causing all the problems. Heck, I'd like to see a dozen of their leaders out of that 900 million have the guts to tell the 100 million they are flat out wrong and that they are poisoning the religion and then try to turn the tide. They won't though....I wonder why? Say, go to your local mosque and tell 'em you know that they are your pals, I'm sure they'd appreciate your support in these trying times.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 28, 2007 04:35PM)
Update! My brother in law called and he saw the puppet skit that I sent him. He watched it with his brother and his non-Arab wife. The brother in law and his brother, both Arabs, thought it was funny, the non-Arab wife didn't get it but she has little sense of humor if any. So there you have it.... the brother in law who thinks Mosad did the attacks is at work and didn't see it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2007 04:37PM)
I gotta say this.

IF you are going to pick a group to "insult", for lack of a better term, you have to admit the following.

Pick on a group such as suicide bombers. I mean really who is going to care? They don't have too big a following after all. They by definition can't be too large a group!
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 04:38PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 17:11, stoneunhinged wrote:

I mean, come on Tim! If you and I can laugh at Mel Brooks and Tim Conway (not to mention this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5l5UIbSpc), then we can't very well get all sensitive all of the sudden. Or are Germans somehow exempt from our making fun of them by adopting fake German accents and such? Hey, I have my American accent made of almost daily by some of my students. Of course, they're going to suffer for it during finals....


And as I said: COOL PUPPET!

Jeff
[/quote]

OK... so the puppet is cool. You got me there as all of Jeffs puppets are cool.

I can laugh at Tim Conway in the SS uniform because he is wearing that uniform and poking fun at the personality in the uniform. The humor there is in the hitler puppet and how its so redicilous trying to intimidate the prisoner. The Mel Brooks " Producers" humor is again making fun of a regime ( did I spell that right? ) much like Chaplin did in the Great Dictator.

Jeffs routine was very creative (all his are). The execution of the performance is fantastic. He walks a tight rope here and much of it is cutting edge but he does in my opinion cross the line. When Achmed calls him a " Racist B*stard" for not allowing Jews in a bar..that is cutting edge and funny. When Achmed offers to " Kill the Jews" I think that is stepping over the line. The joke about the Jews fighting to death over the penny is not only very old offensive to many. The priest joke was also beneath Jeffs usual stuff.

I'm guessing most think that using the puppet is different than actually saying things. If a comedian told the Jew joke directly to the audience would it be as acceptable. If a Muslim heckled Jeff during a show and HE hollered out.."You Terrorist" in a method similar to Michael Richards...would that be ok?

As I stated when I first chimed in. This video is very popular and I am in the minority in thinking it offensive to anyone. I'm wondering though if any who would defend it would feel comfortable playing this routine for their Muslim friends.

I was supposed to be spending the afternoon rehearsing a new routine for a show tomorrow and have instead spent it yaking here. ( against windmills as MagicSanta says .. LOL )

I best get back to that routine lest I suck tomorrow.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (Oct 28, 2007 04:39PM)
Acting way too PC people. lol
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2007 04:41PM)
The part that is distubing is that if it wasn't the puppet it could not be done.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 04:49PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 17:28, MagicSanta wrote:
Timothy, I can't speak about Canada with its history of locking up people based on race but I've not heard anyone here wanting to lock up Muslims and I'm not sure where you get the idea from. The guy has the right to do the act he wants and you and everyone else can either watch it or not. I know in Canada you all restrict what is on radio etc but we don't really do that here to the extent you all do. You went after Big Jeff, you were looking for loopholes to do so, and you have no basis to go after him. You are in a snit over a puppet!

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm just overwhelmed with your support of all people around the world and if space aliens existed I'm sure you would be standing right there with them. You sir are a modern day Martin Luther King Jr (I would have picked a Canadian but I never heard of a Canadian civil rights leader), you are enlightened, you are an angel on Earth. There, do you feel better? Can you now knock off trying to build an igloo out of an ice cube?
[/quote]

Another attempt at misdirection from the topic? Or just more spin to create controversy on the Café. I told you in a PM once that I fell for your " lets get some Canadian flames going" once but won't again. I won't argue with any of your Canada nonsense any more.

Never heard of a Canadian Civil Rights leader? Look up the Underground Railroad sometime.

Who said anything about locking up Muslims based on race? Who mentioned Guantanamo Bay? Not me. But since you brought it up....LOL

Go after Big Jeff? I didn't attact Big Jeff I defended innocent people. What happened to that free speech you boast on? The only attacks on this thread are in your posts.

You could have simply debated that you didn't see the video as insulting to anyone but instead you defended it by attacking Muslims as terrorists. Now you say you have Muslim relatives. I'm thinking you're back to your old games of " lets create some flames on the Café"

Now I understand why you post anonymously.
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (Oct 28, 2007 05:01PM)
I think you're the one distracting or twisting from the topic. You don't like it, and your point to continue stating this is? I guess if I post anything from Dave Chappelle's show you'll hijack the thread and rant as well? lol Kind of makes me happy posts in this forum don't add to post counts lol Eh, all I have to say on this to you on this topic heh.

lol it was almost as good as his act with Walter.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 05:13PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 18:01, Joey Stalin wrote:
I think you're the one distracting or twisting from the topic. You don't like it, and your point to continue stating this is? I guess if I post anything from Dave Chappelle's show you'll hijack the thread and rant as well? lol
[/quote]

Ummmmmm... a video was posted and I said it thought it was offensive. When others debated it with a different opinion I continued a discussion. How is that distracting or twisting the topic?

Dave Chappelle??? I haven't seen a lot of his stuff but what I have seen is great. My favorite is the " Blind KKK leader who doesn't know he IS black" That is comedy that makes the right kind of statement. So with that said.. Go ahead and post stuff from Dave Chappelle. If you can find the KKK clip I'd appreciate it.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Oct 28, 2007 05:13PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 14:06, MagicSanta wrote:
Whoa...'sins of the past', are you saying the US sinned in fighting Japan?
[/quote]

Starts with H, rhymes with Diroshima.
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (Oct 28, 2007 05:32PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 17:41, Dannydoyle wrote:
The part that is distubing is that if it wasn't the puppet it could not be done.
[/quote]

Kind of the point of ventriloquism, for some off reason just talking to his hand wouldn't be as funny.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Oct 28, 2007 05:35PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 17:11, stoneunhinged wrote:
I just watched it myself, and was frankly surprised at how innocuous it is. Most of the jokes are very generic--double entendres and such, like the couple of jokes at the end--and are in no way Muslim specific. The puppet (COOL PUPPET!) has a Middle East accent. Hmmm. Oh, and the virgins joke.
[/quote]
I have no strong feelings on the sketch one way or the other, but I would have to say that the turban on top of the puppet inherently makes the bit almost entirely Arab / Muslim-specific. There was also the anti-Jew rant made by the puppet that was also Muslim-specific (in a stereotypical way, mind you).

My only other two comments are these. I just didn't think the jokes were all that funny. The crowd must have been really drunk. And the Monty Python troupe would like their stolen "dead parrot" bits back.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 05:36PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 18:32, Joey Stalin wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 17:41, Dannydoyle wrote:
The part that is distubing is that if it wasn't the puppet it could not be done.
[/quote]

Kind of the point of ventriloquism, for some off reason just talking to his hand wouldn't be as funny.
[/quote]

I don't think that's quite what Danny meant. (maybe you knew that) However... Wasn't it Jeff who did the routine where he talked to his hand as he transformed into various personalities?

Edit: Just checked and I am correct. I saw Jeff do this routine (bare hand) when he toured with Sugar Babies.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (Oct 28, 2007 05:42PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 17:11, stoneunhinged wrote:
(not to mention this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5l5UIbSpc)

Jeff
[/quote]
You know that that link goes nowhere, right?
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 28, 2007 05:49PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 18:42, Joey Stalin wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 17:11, stoneunhinged wrote:
(not to mention this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5l5UIbSpc)

Jeff
[/quote]
You know that that link goes nowhere, right?
[/quote]

Take the bracket of the end and you get this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5l5UIbSpc

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Oct 28, 2007 06:04PM)
Watching this video, I see very little actual racist humour.

He maybe crosses the line a couple of times with the Jews fighting over the penny, but most of it is about the stupidity of fundamentalism and suicide bombing, regardless of the race or religion of the terrorist.
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Oct 28, 2007 09:05PM)
It's a comedy routine. Comedy is meant to be edgy! Chappelle does it! Rock does it! MAD TV does it in spades! When we can no longer laugh at ourselves then we may as push the button, turn out the lights and return this ravaged globe back to the roaches. Geesh!
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Oct 30, 2007 10:50AM)
Good point, Skip. My Dad was half Scottish, loved tight-fisted Scotsman jokes (that two-penny bit plays in Edinburgh as well as it does in the Borscht Belt); Mom's half-Italian, doesn't mind threatening to "introduce me to Jimmy [Hoffa] if I don't behave," and has never found "do-wop" songs offensive. Come to think of it, Carlos Mencia has somehow taken the most pejorative terms gabacho culture ever hurled at Mexicans and heaved 'em right back into our Yanqui faces...and we LOVE it.

Not sure I'm following the math on this thread: One hundred million fundamentalist Islamic zealots are seething to die or kill in order to globally enact their version of sharia, but nine hundred million moderate Muslims should be upset about ...one puppet? The guy carrying the foam dummy is more threatening than the guy carrying C4 and ball bearings?

The Tuskogee Airmen didn't b*tch about segregation, they got up in the air and they taught a bunch of racist hillbillies how to fly; Billy Jean King didn't whine about the boorish chauvinism of Bobby Riggs, she simply humiliated him on the tennis courts; JK Rowling didn't waste her time sniveling about the second-class treatment of single mothers on the dole, but wrote her way to respect.

Taking a lesson from that playbook, 900 million moderate Muslims could do more for their own cause than all the political correctness and good intentions of the non-Muslim world combined. How about an anti-fatwah or a safe-house for Salman Rushdie? How about CAIR issuing a condemnation of Khartoum and a demand for Koranic mercy towards animistic or other non-Muslim Sudanese? Or a grass-roots outpouring of sympathy and support for the families of slaughtered Russian schoolchildren, and outrage towards their Islamo-fascist butchers?

Stereotyping? Bad. Complaining about the decor in the room while ignoring the elephant? Worse.

Leland
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 30, 2007 11:54AM)
Hey, I never said my in laws were Muslims, I said they were Arabic, Palestinians to be exact. You made an assumption that all Arabs are Muslim, the inlaws are Eastern Orthidox Christians as are a great many people in that region. I must insist you stop stereo typing people based on race! Next thing you know you'll be saying Iranians are Arabs. First slave stealing then Japanese internment, now stereotyping Arabs....I won't even go into the accusations of torture brought up by the Taliban yesterday against Canada (actually I think that was a case of a Celine CD being put on loud enough for the Taliban to hear it).
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 11:57AM)
Skip,

I agree with your comment but then so again does Michael Richards...Hmmmmm where back to the same old arguement of where the line is again.

Leland,

Firstly... I don't think its really a 100 million Muslims out there wanting to die or kill for their religion. I'm not sure where Magic Santa got that 10% figure from. It could be a fact that 10 percent see violence as a way to defend their religion if attacked or it could be that we're getting only a very slim view of the facts. If Christians were asked if they'd defend their religious freedom with violence I suspect more than 10 percent would say yes. History will back me up on this. Does this mean Christians are all radical?

I like your point that people should do something instead of just whining. You give some good examples. I agree that people should do something about it..but does that mean that we should also ignore prejudice when we see it and leave it up to those being victimized by it to pull themselves up and out of it?

You mentioned the Tuskegee Airmen. They were indeed heroes and examples for all humanity. I don't think they would have made it to those cockpits however if not for others outside of their race standing up and saying what's right and what's wrong. If we simply said its up to others in their own race to make it happen for them..would it have happened???

Staying with the Tuskegee Airmen... Look at all the terrible Hollywood stereotypes laughed at and accepted as quality entertainment during that era. We thought it was ok then but now know better. I'm sure then many people said.... "I know a black person and they don't seem offended by it." I'm sure many were not. BUT many were and it sent the wrong message. I'm thinking some day we as a population will think the same of this routine. BTW... I'm Canadian and enjoy most of the Canadian jokes I hear . Its all in good fun. If the jokes painted us all as killers of innocent people I don't think I'd find that so great.

Several of my friends have performed in the UAE. I suspect Jeff has as well. The UAE is very pro-western and not involved in any of this terrorist nonsense. Do you think Jeff would perform this routine there? Would you perform this routine there if you were Jeff?

Best,

Tim

P.S. This is my official acknowledgment that even though I swore it'd never happen again. MagicSanta bested me AGAIN. Most of his earlier posts in the thread were designed one for reason and that was to see if any gullible Café members would bite the flame hook. (if they were Canadian fish all the better ) I did bite. It was only at the end that I realized I have been fodder. MagicSanta... You are evil, EVIL I tell you. Next time I REALLY will be ready for you. LOL
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 30, 2007 12:23PM)
"Look at all the terrible Hollywood stereotypes laughed at and accepted as quality entertainment during that era. We thought it was ok then, but now know better."

Really? Who knows better?

Martin Lawrence' characterizations?...and the many others on TV...

The stereotypical jive *** clowns in Rap? All dress the same, act the same, speak the same, unintelligible 'know what I'm sayin' over the top junk talk. You think maybe they don't embarrass a huge block of Black people that work to avoid stereotypes?

I don't know about that. If you don't act the comical fool your out.

'We' have learned nothing.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 12:35PM)
Well said Doug,

I spoke too soon it seems. It does still exist as it is protected by free speech. It has an audience but isn't accepted as it was years ago.

We have learned something though. Back then Black actors only got cast in roles written as a black character. This was something I never really noticed until Bill Cosby mentioned it in an interview once. The script would have to say.."William is a black man" in order for a black actor to get the part. These days it doesn't quite work that way. The consumer market is more interested in talent and popularity than what color or religion he/she is.

[quote]
On 2007-10-30 13:23, Doug Higley wrote:
I don't know about that. If you don't act the comical fool your out.
[/quote]

My answer to that is Will Smith, Sidney Potier, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Bill Cosby and Samuel L Jackson,Nichelle Nichols...etc.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 12:55PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-30 12:54, MagicSanta wrote:
Hey, I never said my in laws were Muslims, I said they were Arabic, Palestinians to be exact. You made an assumption that all Arabs are Muslim, the inlaws are Eastern Orthidox Christians as are a great many people in that region. I must insist you stop stereo typing people based on race!
[/quote]

Well said!

My Egyptian friends ( who are Muslims ) wish me a Merry Christmas each year. I was surprised at this at first which proved to be ignorance on my part as they told me of their many Christian friends living in Egypt who celebrate Christmas.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 30, 2007 01:37PM)
'My answer to that is Will Smith, Sidney Potier, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Bill Cosby and Samuel L Jackson, Nichelle Nichols...etc.'

Agreed. Add Jeffery White (Who can and does play ANYTHING. An Awesome actor.) Cuba Gooding Jr. is a master actor as well who has pretty much avoided the stereotype. (He needs better roles!)

I think the finest ensemble that covered all the ground and was as real as it gets was 'Glory'. In my top 5 of all time.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 30, 2007 02:12PM)
Just because someone can break out of a stereotype, doesn't make it right.
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 30, 2007 02:38PM)
Yes it do.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 30, 2007 03:08PM)
No, they don't. Without stereotypes how can we efficiently make fun of people?

This method for turning a group of people into an individual has been in place for millennia and for good reason. It's too hard to keep track of a lot of different people and make fun of or imprison them. Like the Canadians do.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 30, 2007 03:09PM)
The above was a opinion and as such (Although correct) is not necessarily the opinion of Josh Riel or Josh Riel Incorporated.... Even if it is in fact Josh's (Very correct) opinion.
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Oct 30, 2007 04:18PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-30 12:57, Timothy Drake wrote:
Skip, I agree with your comment but then so again does Michael Richards...Hmmmmm where back to the same old arguement of where the line is again. [/quote]

Tim, no offense, good friend, but Michael Richards stepped outside the boundaries of comedy structure when he lost control and allowed himself to respond to the hecklers in the crowd with personal and targeted insults that were clearly racist in nature. The Mencia and Chappelle types get away with their humor because the taunts are generalized and recognized as generally accepted stereotypes. If either comedian got down into the faces of certain audience members and singled them out for this "abuse" neither would have a career worth spit. I don't believe that Jeff Dunham's creation is a racial assault as much as it is a caricature of a very common fear. Of course, I never understood removing Speedy Gonzales from the Warner Bros. line-up either. Jeff is simply taking a very real fear and making it easier to face through humor...one of humor many incredible treasures.

Chaplin did it with Hitler, the Three Stooges did it with Mussolini, M*A*S*H did it for a generation swamped by the media and politically manufactures quagmire of Viet Nam. This country needs to throw off the political correctness choke collar and get a hold of reality before we force ourselves into a corner we'll never get out of. America's greatest generations were the product of "in your face" strength and certainty against our enemies and protagonists...not of boot kissing , apologetic leaf munchers begging for international forgiveness. Enough is enough!

Back to Jeff...Average Joe Public is a pretty good barometer of acceptable and unacceptable. Michael Richards - completely unacceptable. Jeff Dunham - a very popular performer and character. Whatever happened to majority rule?
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Oct 30, 2007 04:25PM)
Hey, Tim:

Good point about others helping embattled minorities overcome, like the "Tuskogee" airmen -- and thanks for not snickering about my typo :) . Coloured persons had a lot of help on the Underground Railroad, with the abolition of slavery, and during the Civil Rights movement. I affirm that there is a moral obligation to help those who are being victimised.

But in battling prejudice, the best weapon upon which to hoist an attacker is their own petard. Can anyone read "A Modest Proposal" without realising that Swift was flipping the bird to the Crown -- and with incredible finesse! Slaves did the same thing in the antebellum South; few before Disney ever thought Br'er Rabbit was just a cute lil' bunny pokin' fun at the mean and powerful Br'er Fox. Here in my own neighbourhood, there's a sports team that protests the use of 'offensive' Indian team names and mascots by calling themselves the Average White Guys (it's hilarious, brilliant satire; their logo is a 50's style white guy in a fedora, smoking a pipe a la "Father Knows Best").

The statistics might be off, but the point isn't the numbers; it's the willingness of the moderate Muslim majority to stand by and do little while their faith and their reputation are hijacked by jihadists. It seems to me that in the House of Islam, the residents are complaining about the neighbours smoking...while ignoring that naughty family members have set their own house on fire.

Leland
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Oct 30, 2007 05:49PM)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5665003093819070601

This is a 45 minute video documentary made by the guy who did Supersize me. It is a great series (I have the first season DVD). It's called 30 Days.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 06:23PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-30 17:18, Skip Way wrote:
I don't believe that Jeff Dunham's creation is a racial assault as much as it is a caricature of a very common fear. Of course, I never understood removing Speedy Gonzales from the Warner Bros. line-up either. Jeff is simply taking a very real fear and making it easier to face through humor...one of humor many incredible treasures.

Chaplin did it with Hitler, the Three Stooges did it with Mussolini, M*A*S*H did it for a generation swamped by the media and politically manufactures quagmire of Viet Nam.

Back to Jeff...Average Joe Public is a pretty good barometer of acceptable and unacceptable. Michael Richards - completely unacceptable. Jeff Dunham - a very popular performer and character. Whatever happened to majority rule?
[/quote]

Skip...I'm with your for the most part. Humor is indeed a great way to deal with fear. I think the examples you mentioned are good examples of political satire. They made fun of an insane political system. Politics has been a good target for humor since day one. LOL

I'll respectfully disagree on "majority rules" though. Opinions change like the wind. A few short decades ago majority in North America discriminated other groups and we now realize that was wrong. Yes...we moved in the right direction regards Michael Richards but that is because we know better today. Majority 50 years ago would have let him get away with it.

Skip, I find it interesting you are one of the few to say... it is not a stereotype of Muslims. You look at it as mocking fear and to be honest I can now see that as Jeffs intent. Many others have not debated that it was a stereotype but instead defended it's right as a stereotype by pointing out the horrors of a small percentage of the religion.

I'm thinking it comes down to this. Most agree its a stereotype but are not offended by it because of a disgust of the topic it mocks. ( terrorism) My only fear is that it adds to unjust fears of others and helps validate stereotypes that only lead to more misunderstanding and problems between various groups.

Yes... I laughed at the routine. Its funny. I admit that. If it could have been done without the stereotype I would have been happier. The same routine could have been done with he same puppet dressed as the grim reaper without the turban, beard or racial comments and it would have been just as funny. I'm still having trouble with the" Kill the Jews" statement. The audience in the video did as well but Jeff hit them with something else quickly to move on.

Leland. I'd like to address the "Other Muslims should do more" issue with out getting too political. I'm sure many Muslims do indeed do more but it doesn't make CNN when it happens. A local(local to me) group of Muslims recently ran a fundraising event for the local homeless shelter. Another local recently was re-elected to his office as a Member of Canadian Parliment. These guys are doing something but just like Cops. The bad ones make the news way more than the good ones. LOL

I've enjoyed this last bit of the debate as it has been most civil. Thanks to those who kept it civil. We have a difference of opinion on some parts I guess and for now I expect it to stay that way. 10 years ago I'd be on the other side of the fence..in 10 years (or maybe longer) others may be on my side of the fence. Who knows? It's a crazy world.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Oct 30, 2007 06:24PM)
http://www.videosift.com/video/30-Days-As-A-Muslim-44mins

Here's another link to the video that is clearer.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 06:46PM)
Bill.. I am speechless. Thanks for that. It makes a lot of things clear that I have known for a long time. The fact that Allah is the same god Christians worship is one I learned a few years ago.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 07:37PM)
Just finished watching this film. It freaky how much it mirrors my own experiences. Sad to say that its been online for 8 months and gotten only 179 views.

I'm curious if others in this thread will watch it and comment.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 30, 2007 09:16PM)
I won't watch it. New things and ideas scare me. I prefer the bigoted rut I have developed through years of intolerance and greed.

What did the apathetic guy say to the frighteningly overly concerned guy: I don't know & I don't care!
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 09:18PM)
Thanks Josh,

Your sarcasm speaks loudly on this subject. Good Post.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 30, 2007 10:24PM)
Here are my comments:
1. He had his shoes checked because of the garb? No, it is required of everyone going through security at airports from what I understand, my wife and I and everyone within sight has had their shoes checked when we fly.

2. First you discuss Arabs now you bring in Pakistanies, they are not Arabs.

3. Only a flaming moron would think all Muslims are terrorist but what other association do they expect the average Westerner to come up with? Should they have responded "Mecca"? I wonder what the average Arab Muslim in Mecca would respond with when asked to come up with their first comment for "American" or "Infidel" as we are so lovingly known.

4. It is common knowledge that Islam is based on the God of Abraham, same is Judism and Christianity. The question of what religion you are in if of those three is who you think the last prophet was.

5. My goodness how sensative, they said "Jewish people and Christians have the Bible....", not true, the Jewish religion uses the Torah, the first five books of the Christian Bible and they do not use the New Testiment.

6. Culture smulture I wouldn't let a stranger stay in the house with my wife either and she wouldn't allow it. You do know that a good Muslim doesn't speak to women right? They are not exactly pro womens rights. My mothers best friend married a Muslim from Iraq, nice guy who was the director of the FDA for the region covering Texas and Oklahoma etc. When their last daughter left to get married he quit speaking to her unless it was to give her instructions for what to do that day. Cat Stevens wouldn't speak to female interviewers and clearly stated a good Muslim doesn't speak to women.

7. Clothing store....the lad is confusing regional and cultural garb with religion. He had on hats common to two different people, one the Eastern Asian community, the other Arab....remember, his hosts are not Arabs by any means.

8. Again with the security at the airport. That is whining and unfounded as he was treated absolutely no differently than anyone else was. My inlaws were flying to NYC and security in San Francisco was doing the regular wand and shoes of for everyone as all airports are suppose to be doing. They also, as is common practice, were conducting a pat down on every sixth person through the gate thingy, regardless of sex, age, religion, anything. If you were sixth, you got a pat down by the appropriate guard. My nephew was picked, he was 17 years old and looks like a normal teen, no one knew he was of Arab ancenstory nor that his name was Arabic. He was sixth, that is all. To this day, a couple years later, my idiot sister in law claims it was purely racism driven. Bull.

9. That Iman is either very liberal or is being nice for the camera. Let's see them talk to a Wahabism (sp) Iman and see how different the responses are.

10. Oh oh...the Iman mentioned Abraham...just like I did....

11. The bachalor party....dude, I use to hit bars every night, Muslims go to bars and hit on chicks and all that...they just don't let it be filmed baby!

12. The showing of the soles of ones feet is cultural, not religious. The Imans name indicates Saudi Arabia, a different culture, by the way, than the hosts. Since they showed the sign about removing shoes and the guest failed to do so it seems to me that it was done intentionally. On another angle though if one moves to anothers culture does the culture being moved to have an obligation to bow to the visitors or does the visitor need to try to understand and respect the host countries culture? I've traveled the world, never has a culture bowed down to American culture but it seems some expect American culture to bow to them.

13. The thing with playing the call to prayer shows what a raving ahole the guy who made this documentary is. I just noticed he is the same moron that made the McDonalds thing....get a real job buddy! Again, let him go to Mecca and put on The Ballad of Big and Rich and see what the people have to say there. Idiot.

14. Oh my...death threats.....the Muslims NEVER EVER would issue a death threat, no siree, they are peace loving people, shame shame shame on those emailers.

15. Now we get the American iman, good guy, far better than the other guy who was oozing with "darn camera! I cannot say what I want!". I do recall the days of the Soviet Union when the spokesman to the US press was a charming and well dressed man in his 50s who spoke fluent American English thanks to his parents being hard core American communist who went to the Soviet Union in the 30s and the guy was raised to be a possitive representative of the USSR. He was a hard core communist and wanted to destroy the West though, interesting guy, he isn't around any longer.

16. Fast forwarded through the slaughter house, I don't do slaughter houses.

17. Hmmmm....I see now the Muslims are denying they should protest the acts of Muslims in the name of Islam.... I can see why that would be, being peace lovin' people and all who never make threats....

18. Hey, why is David wearing that hat but the other 'real Muslims' are not? Me thinks my man David is being forced to live unlike the other guys....shame. Fraud sucks.

19. Those racists scumbag Americans think Muslims would commit acts of terrorism? Impossible! They don't make threats, they don't commit acts of terror! Why next you'll hear Americans claiming those Muslims blow up their own people in battles between sects of Islam! No way, I can't see why anyone would think such a thing. Racist scum, they should all be arrested and put into special camps!

20. Oh oh, seems Dave is being forced to wear foriegn garb while the foriegn types are wearing Western garb.....

21. Timothy whathisname wasn't a Christian....sorry gang.

22. Again, he is in a MUSLIM household not ARAB. What is wrong with you goody goody types? Don'cha know the difference?

23. Of course they have sleeper cells in Dearborn...

24. As for Eric Rudolph I'll say right now he is and extremist and his ilk should be tossed into the ocean and let God save 'em if he choses to. Stupid analogy.

25. David doesn't know what some mosques are used for, he knows what he was told to know and he isn't an expert at anything, sorry Dave, you are still a hillbilly with a hot wife.

26. Cute, David says you can't look at the Muslims as bad folks, which is true, but a large number are and a large number in this country, and Canada, are actively desiring the destruction of Western culture. He said people can't base their opinion on the action of five (five? Idiot...where does he get five?) but he bases his opinion on a thirty day period with selected individuals who revealed to him what they chose to reveal.

27. I'm looking forward to the documentary when a religious Muslim goes and lives with a Christian family and must take part in their religious services and eat what they eat etc.... yeah, like that is gonna happen.

SO what is the point Tim? I don't know the area you live in or how familiar you are with Arabs and Muslims from other countries and those from the US. The people in the documentary pretty much represent how most the Muslims I know are. Just in case you are keeping score here is a link to a place that was next door to where I worked for almost 20 years. I knew many of the people who went to the place and many were from Europe and Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia). So before you start to gear up for a challenge keep in mind that was the community I worked in and I am very familiar with the Arab culture due to the inlaws and I blew 'em up when I was in the service. Do keep in mind that the Muslim people, and other Arabs and Easterners, are very nice people and are a threat to no one. Unfortunately they are associated with a very large group of Muslims who are a very real threat. What combines them is their general dislike of do gooders thinking they need their protection.

http://www.granadaschool.org/
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 10:37PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-30 23:24, MagicSanta wrote:


SO what is the point Tim? I don't know the area you live in or how familiar you are with Arabs and Muslims from other countries and those from the US. The people in the documentary pretty much represent how most the Muslims I know are. So before you start to gear up for a challenge.....

[/quote]

Magic Santa. I'm not getting geared up for a challenge . I'm happy you watched it. Thanks for taking the time. The Muslims in that film represent the ones I know in the same way they represent your friends. I think the film says the rest for me.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 30, 2007 10:42PM)
That a guy from West Virginia is a nice guy to the Muslims in Dearborn? I don't get it but whatever keeps you happy. I say we send an American Muslim who is mellow to the mountains of Aghanistan and see what happens....
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 30, 2007 10:47PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-30 23:42, MagicSanta wrote:
I say we send an American Muslim who is mellow to the mountains of Aghanistan and see what happens....
[/quote]



I don't think I mentioned other muslim countries but instead only mentioned Muslims. Lets stay with the American Muslims you are talking about. These are the ones who suffer the most from stereotypes.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 31, 2007 01:03AM)
Well...I'm an average American and I don't have a stereotypical Muslim in mind. Please list the traits contributed to them as stereotypes so I might know if I have any of them. Thanks!

Here is what I know:

Good Muslims are okay. Bad Muslims sneak in across the Northern border of the US. I'm not going to name countries that allow it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Oct 31, 2007 08:09AM)
[quote]
Here is what I know:

Good Muslims are okay. Bad Muslims sneak in across the Northern border of the US. I'm not going to name countries that allow it.
[/quote]

That would be the US that allows sneaking in? LOL

Yes Magicsanta, you can find faults in the film. You can find faults with anything. But if you take the general message of the doc, you can't mistake it. Of course, you have already mentioned and agreed on it. The sad fact is that there are a lot of people who unfortunately lump everybody together and judges them based on the actions of others in their religion, race, association....
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 31, 2007 08:25AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-30 19:46, Timothy Drake wrote:
The fact that Allah is the same god Christians worship is one I learned a few years ago.
[/quote]

While this is commonly said, there are actually a number of significant differences.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 08:45AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 09:25, Chessmann wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-10-30 19:46, Timothy Drake wrote:
The fact that Allah is the same god Christians worship is one I learned a few years ago.
[/quote]

While this is commonly said, there are actually a number of significant differences.
[/quote]

Hello Chessmann,

There are differences in the direction each religion had taken their beliefs in but they all (Christians, Muslims and Jews) worship the god that spoke to Moses on the Mountain as their one god. That was what I meant when I said its the same god.

It all started the same but has developed into different branches of worship.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 31, 2007 09:03AM)
That's not what I read in a Chick tract last week.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 31, 2007 09:05AM)
Yes, now I see better what you were meaning.
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (Oct 31, 2007 09:14AM)
Yeah, Tim, can you stop being a troll and can we get this back on topic?
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 09:15AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 10:03, stoneunhinged wrote:
That's not what I read in a Chick tract last week.
[/quote]

Hi Stoneunhinged,

I just looked up Chick Tracks on google and discovered what they were. Yes they seem to put a different view on things. I'd prefer to let a Muslim tell me who Allah is than someone from another religion with an agenda.

Ask a Muslim who Allah is and he'll tell you its the " God of Abraham". Ask any Muslim if Allah spoke to Moses on the Mountain and he'll tell you yes.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 09:23AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 10:14, Joey Stalin wrote:
Yeah, Tim, can you stop being a troll and can we get this back on topic?
[/quote]

Topic???

Joey,

Sorry you are upset that you posted how much you liked this video and I had problems with it. Read the thread and you'll see that the topic IS regarding the video being offensive or not offensive. When you posted it what did you expect? Maybe you'd get some responses with " Cool" or " Nice Video" ? What else can be discussed about it when its edgy stuff.

When the topic is the controversy of a stereotype.....discussing the object of the stereotype is not off topic. Many others have offered opinions and its lead to some interesting discussion but you have only popped in from time to time to say I have pulled it off topic. Why don't you post something ON topic if you think there is another topic I am pulling away from. What is the topic in your eyes? The video right? Then the controversy of the video is open for discussion.

We're all big boys here. We've remained civil and done nothing against Café rules. If you think we have wandered off topic then report the thread and let the Café mods decide if we have crossed he " off topic " line. If they don't pull it then please quit posting with insults asking me to get back on topic.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Oct 31, 2007 11:48AM)
Hi, Tim:

I appreciate your comments about good Muslims in Canada behaving in law abiding, society-supportive ways that are ignored by the media. It is true that such stories are far less likely to get ink than, say, the Shoe Bomber incident.

But my point is not that there are "good" Muslims -- those who are civilly responsible and respectful of their host culture. Rather, it is their inexplicable and virtually total lack of condemnation towards zealous, murderous factions within Islam that I addressed.

Let me give an example from another faith: Some persons who claim to be Christians and do the "work of God" have been protesting at the funerals of American soldiers. These miscreants have behaved monstrously, "thanking" God for the soldiers' deaths and for "God's judgment" on immoral America. Other Christians, rather than standing by in silence, have openly and loudly condemned these morons for being irreligious beasts perverting and misrepresenting Christianity. The point of my prior post was that such denominational self-policing is nearly absent in the Muslim community; due to fear of reprisal, feelings of solidarity, or other motivation, the Islamic leadership [most specifically, CAIR] is virtually silent when it should be taking an unequivocal and high-visibility moral stand.

There are individual Muslims who protest the jihadists, of course, just as there were individual Christians who protested Nazism. But as the German church in the 1930s -- in its role as coporate representative of the Christian faith -- was immorally silent against Nazism, so Muslim leadership has been derelict in fighting jihadism. The German church became the puppet of the Reich; will Islam allow itself to become the sword of the terrorists?

Leland
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 12:16PM)
O.K. so we have decided that the original film is funny, but evil, but really not evil, but really evil. It will cause death, but it will only save lives.... I think Jeff Dunham would be proud to be responsible for such responses. What we all need to do is bow our heads in prayer, to my god of course (I worship the Devil so you'll need some baby fat candles). Don't disparage my god or my people, and if you are offended by my beliefs or have preconceived notions about it, you are evil as Mr. Dunham.

Anyone who disagrees is a communist
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 31, 2007 12:24PM)
I just realized the Canuckers think Americans are roaming the streets beating Muslims and Hindus confused with Muslims. That is utter nonsense. Those acts are few and far between yet greatly focused on by the media. There is stereotyping going on here, and it is against the good ol' USA. I'm so abused.....
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 12:31PM)
Those Canadians are all alike; with their speech impediments and the way they are so prejudiced... Makes me kind of sad.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 12:47PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 12:48, Leland Stone wrote:
Hi, Tim:

I appreciate your comments about good Muslims in Canada behaving in law abiding, society-supportive ways that are ignored by the media. It is true that such stories are far less likely to get ink than, say, the Shoe Bomber incident.

But my point is not that there are "good" Muslims -- those who are civilly responsible and respectful of their host culture. Rather, it is their inexplicable and virtually total lack of condemnation towards zealous, murderous factions within Islam that I addressed.

Let me give an example from another faith: Some persons who claim to be Christians and do the "work of God" have been protesting at the funerals of American soldiers. These miscreants have behaved monstrously, "thanking" God for the soldiers' deaths and for "God's judgment" on immoral America. Other Christians, rather than standing by in silence, have openly and loudly condemned these morons for being irreligious beasts perverting and misrepresenting Christianity. The point of my prior post was that such denominational self-policing is nearly absent in the Muslim community; due to fear of reprisal, feelings of solidarity, or other motivation, the Islamic leadership [most specifically, CAIR] is virtually silent when it should be taking an unequivocal and high-visibility moral stand.

Leland
[/quote]

Thanks Leland,

NOW I get what you were saying. You have a good point. I also think more Muslims should speak up but I have to guess they have their reasons not to. Maybe they are afraid to speak up publicly for fear of reprisal. Many of us here in the Café are afraid to speak up on subjects they believe in because its not in their best interest or popular to do so. I don't suffer much from that fear (LOL) and its caused me a bit of grief now and then. You'll note in my first post in the thread I predicted I'd be in a minority as Jeffs video is popular.

I agree with your point though Leland. As much as white america may have protested Segregation it would NOT have been defeated if not for Rosa Parks and others like here who were willing to do something herself instead of waiting for others to do it for her.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Oct 31, 2007 02:25PM)
Every Muslim I know says they do not condone the acts on 9/11. Problem is that it doesn't sell newspapers and is often buried in the "to the editor" sections if anywhere at all. On T.V. it is the same thing. Only what sells ad space is reported more.

This is truly what we are talking about here. What is focused on by the media and thusly relayed to the public at large.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 02:55PM)
The saddest part is on some level every American knows what you're saying to be the truth Mr. Bill, but they forget it. Usually they forget it when they are told to by the very media establishments they know they cannot trust.....

We have turned into a bunch of weak minded suckers.

(I apologize for the lack of stupidity in this post)
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Oct 31, 2007 03:02PM)
It's not just in the U.S. but worldwide that this happen Josh. I've seen it in my own family, I've seen it with me. I am not immune. This is why I've stopped watching the news.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 03:19PM)
<Family tale, stop reading now>

My mother was a very... difficult... woman to grow up with, however she said one thing that she lived by and was great advice: "Don't believe nothin' you hear and only half of what you see"

As she began to get older she started watching a lot of news, first CNN then FOX... Now the only things she has to say are mere parroting of these two news stations (Conservative side, but regardless). It is a sad thing when otherwise intelligent people are subverted by the desire to let other people decide [i]how they think[/i]. No doubt it's easier, but you *** near lose your soul. And you certainly have no better grasp of whats happening in the world, you just are told to [i]think you do[/i]. The third world nations are our only hope, they don't have many T.V.'s.
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 31, 2007 03:53PM)
Sorry Josh...We have the resources and educational system at our fingertips to FIND out the truth despite our corrupt media...they in the 3rd world remain ignorant, isolated and thus extremely dangerous...in the sand-lands all the uneducated have is the insane rantings of their Imams and a single book to guide them to their targets.

The best the radicals have to offer is to commit suicide. That's the fast track and the top of their food chain and a deep deep sickness. Did someone say [b]100 million?[/b] I'm sorry as hell but I don't give a crap that there are nice ones less nuts than others...not when my family is at stake. Bottom line guard the gates and aggressively protect and defend. Don't mess with me and mine and you can believe whatever you like and off yourselves to hell and your 72 Virgins all you want to.
There is no credibility for that crazy crap and being politically correct will get us dead.

In high school it was the [b]peer[/b] group that got the ****** under control. Did you forget that? Other wise there would have been daily race riots. The 'nice' Muslims [b]have[/b] to speak out...have to [b]act[/b] and the only place this is taking place is in Iraq where the decent folks are trying to win back their sanity from the nut cases. Some Americans are giving all they have, [b]lives[/b] and Treasure to help them get their life back. Give them the opportunity to have a real country again free of the despots...so grab onto it 'nice' Muslims and kick the crazy buggers to hell...it's your world being fought for...we are doing our best...I have my world and the loony amongst you ain't gonna get it. But if you stand up [b]properly[/b] and fight for yourselves...you can share it. Sitting on your *** and watching my people die for it and only showing anger and passion if a cartoon is published ain't gonna cut it with me.

I don't give a rats ass for the political deceit and government nonsense...our guys that are over there are fighting for an ideal...not what Bush thinks or Harry Ried is afraid of under his bed...they went over and continue to go over there to help create a free society...and eliminate the threat to our own. Who cares about Bush and Clinton and why they do what they do or did what they did. The reason [b]morale[/b] is high in the ranks and these heroes are signing up for even 3rd tours is that they believe what they are doing not Bush. Politicians don't motivate GIs to risk their lives...but the mission can and does and will till those people have the opportunity to stand on their own against the uncivilized garbage at their throats.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 04:09PM)
Hi Doug,

Currently the US has the worlds most powerful military and have not been able to stop a nutjob from strapping on a bomb and walking into group of people . If the worlds most powerful military can't do it then how can a Muslim living in America do anything about it? Other than denounce it?

If its so easy why can't we stop kids from going Columbine on us here? A nutjob is a nutjob and they'll use any excuse they can for their actions. Religion is an easy one.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 04:10PM)
The problem is they (The "Nice" Muslims) might be fighting against it, and we might not be told.

However, with enough research, we could perhaps.

Resources to find the truth... If you can tell what is the truth from what isn't. The educational system? That is as suspect as the media when it comes to this sort of thing I think you would agree. But we do have to protect ourselves. What's a fella to do? Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.

What a totally off-the-edge-of-the-flat-earth discussion this has turned to.

I think the video in question is awesome, I watched the whole Comedy Central Special with Jeff, it was really good. I would get the DVD, or steal it off the Internet.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 04:29PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 17:10, Josh Riel wrote:
The problem is they (The "Nice" Muslims) might be fighting against it, and we might not be told.

[/quote]

I'm thinking somewhere this same debate is going on in the Middle East. How many really know that the US is there to help? A bunch of US soldiers are on the ground surrounded by a different culture who looks at them as terrorists. The Soldiers are there to help but a house of civilians gets bombed in error or by a trigger happy few and then the locals say... " I told you..they're all evil" I don't care about all the others. We have to treat them all the same.

Hmmmm... same arguement fits both sides. Wrong both times and both sides lose.

I'm thinking the debate is getting a bit too political for Café standards. Its bound to happen as politics are so closely tied to the subject and in many cases the cause. If it continues to get more into politics and gets deleted I want to thank those who participated on the original stereotype topic. Ignoring or burying the issue does nothing but discussing it can only help. Many Thanks for your opinion no matter which position you took.


Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 31, 2007 04:46PM)
Tim...Muslims evrywhere can denounce the murders of children. Denounce it loudly. Keep it from speading. IF that is what they want. Or we can all let fear stop us. Those with fear will sit...like they sat before WW2 was taken to the perps. There are many with courage...were too dam* worried about the feelings of those without it. Prevent Mosques in this country from spreading the haterd and violence to NEW converts would be a start. Stand up and denounce it. Take a bullet if you have to...what the hell you think our guys are doing on their behalf?

Of course a Giant can't stop a Lice from getting in the hair...keeping it to that level is what is urgent...the occasional nut job...meanwhile other schools and communities prepare for their own nut job appearance and educate those who might think it's 'cool' to off a classroom.

I don't hear much denouncing do you? Fear is a strong deterrent and the only tool of terrorists..like I said the BEST they haven to offer is to kill themselves. Very hard to fight an enemy that WANTS to die with all their heart. The Iraqi people are dealing with their fear and standing up by the many thousands...taking a bullet...turning in that rat basturd that is planning the elimination of a crowded school bus. Where is the support? Too busy claiming GW Bush had the wrong reasons to go there. Well, our troops don't give a crap about his wrong reasons. There is passion and compassion and what is need is the equal from those whose religion is being hijacked and destroyed. Where are the volunteers on OUR side forming units like we did before WW2 to help the Chinese (Flying Tigers). They have all the money and weapons at their disposal in the world. They can do it. Yelling and tearing out the hair over a catrtoon in freakin' Denmark is more to the liking. Bull Crap. LOUD AND CLEAR. The Educated standing up to the Barbarians. this is a new concept? And I don't mean educated because they were taught from ONE book.

Next is Iran...high;y educated people there being subjugated by a monkey man. Give me a break. Fear needs to be beaten down as it was in conflicts past. There are always those who will put it on the line for those who cant or don't have the balls.

The old saw comes into play...Lead, Follow or get the hell out of the way.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 04:57PM)
Hi Doug,

I think I am most sickened when I see on the news that a group of Iraqi police recruits were lost as they stood in line waiting to sign up. One nutjob takes them out and a bunch of those who wanted to help are gone.

I then see the same thing a few weeks later regards a new group. The only positive I can get from that is that it means more Iraqis were willing to line sign up after what happened to the group before them.

Lets hope they run out of nutjobs before we do those willing to help.

You are right that no matter how or why the US is there. They ARE there and we have to deal with it. I'm sure many Iraqis work hard to assist in the effort but as mentioned before you don't see that on the media in the same way that you don't see many US successes in the PR war either. Great things are being accomplished but only the bad things get the press. If memory serves correct the US Milatary even started a YouTube site to get the positive messages out but the viewership was mediocre as it got so little press.

Here's a sample of the stuff you rarely see... can't sell commercials this stuff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyG_q2xktk4 Call it propaganda if you'd like but it shows there is a hope but that hope has to start with a little trust first.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 05:14PM)
Let's be careful for denouncing a group for being silent when evil deeds are done by a minority of those within it.

Otherwise you condemn Christianity as surely as Muslims. For that matter every country, race or religion, including America.

Sure they [b]aught to[/b] be brave in the face of adversity, but really only a very small minority will actually do so from any group. Who wants to die, sacrifice their family, all the things bad people do, just for the sake of "Doing the right thing"?

How did a puppet start this? More importantly, why did the puppet start this?
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 31, 2007 05:31PM)
Timothy, remember one thing, the US military has not attempted to stop them as of yet. Believe me, if our leadership wasn't so sensative and caring it would be a different story. The US military has proven itself to have the greatest of restraint, but we have also proven that at a given time, if allowed, we can be the most vicious mothers on the planet. Don't even assume what is going on in Iraq is what we are capable of. I am a veteran of conflict in the Mid East and if you want to discuss military issues then go find someone who was in the military and I'll discuss it with them.
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 31, 2007 05:41PM)
Yeah...this might be too political...I'm not a judge of that as I lost my filters a long time ago. I say what I say and if the monitors want to yank the chain, whatever.

Josh, I don't want to be careful. There are enough being careful. I don't condem or at least want to condem...what a waste of time...but the facts say when the sh** hits the fan America has been there. Every time. And there has always been ENOUGH with balls enough to do what's right. Unfortunately there have also been the cringing cowards in Washington willing to let them hang out to dry. We never lost a batle in Viet Nam. Not once. It was a strong rope of politics that prevented that victory. The whineing and the PC. We were there but not to win. That was the mistake. The same mistake that is shivering under it's desk right now in DC.

Josh says: "Sure they aught to be brave in the face of adversity, but really only a very small minority will actually do so from any group. Who wants to die, sacrifice their family, all the things bad people do, just for the sake of "Doing the right thing"?"

History says you are wrong. Look up the body count from Ancient times and on through today. Those who stand up are always there. Always. Many on this board were there...(including me) there are a million there now...millions and millions and millions...regardless the cause or country, there will always be enough to stand up for those who can't or won't. It's what young men are for (now many young women too) who are raised with a sense of obligation to others to step up to the plate and HONOR their roots and the Constitutuon.
.
We know what we are getting into...we know there are the self absorbed politicians cringing in the wings. Arabs are not cowards by any means...they just need the leadership willing to point the direction and lay out the consequences of failure.
These are very bad people in this fight against all civilization but what do you say we save an Owl intead...passion aplenty for that...of course Owls are blown to hell when a big one goes off.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 05:47PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 18:31, MagicSanta wrote:
Timothy, remember one thing, the US military has not attempted to stop them as of yet.
[/quote]

So you are saying that the US Military has never tried to stop Terrorism? Not sure I get your meaning. There were no measures in place to stop that mess hall from getting blown up recently? That can't be true and I suspect its not. I don't have to be in the military to know that.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 06:08PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 18:41, Doug Higley wrote:
History says you are wrong. Look up the body count from Ancient times and on through today. Those who stand up are always there. Always. Many on this board were there...(including me) there are a million there now...millions and millions and millions...regardless the cause or country, there will always be enough to stand up for those who can't or won't. It's what young men are for (now many young women too) who are raised with a sense of obligation to others to step up to the plate and HONOR their roots and the Constitutuon.[/quote]

Doug, what I'm going to say is going to really irritate some people.
History tells us that a giant majority of those body counts you spoke of were not there to "Stand" for anything. They were there because they were forced to, or simply trained to follow orders. Not really heroic in the sense of getting involved for the betterment of society. And even when they did care, they were merely cannon fodder.

Do you really believe we have the only righteous cause. We are fighting people that at best had a trifling role in the attack they are being fought for. For our safety? We are in their neighborhood, fighting in their living rooms.

We have a war of the misinformed. If we want to stop them from hating all of America, maybe we should go first.

Doug, I certainly don't think you should be careful about speaking your mind. What I meant is "condemning all because of few". It's dangerous, in a philosophical way. We are not innocent and condemn ourselves.

"With the judgement we are judging others, you yourself will be judged." If anyone reads the bible.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2007 06:20PM)
So as not to exacerbate this anymore than I have. And to get myself out of this conversation, the seriousness hurts me.

I'll put it simply.
Arabs are not the enemy, Muslims are not the enemy. Simply because they haven't done enough as far as you are concerned does not mean they haven't done their best. It certainly doesn't mean they deserve to die for living in an "Evil" region.

There are massive cultural differences. We have deaths and destroyed buildings and fear, they have more. Would it matter to you why your family was getting killed in your own backyard? no, you would fight them, and probably hate them, hate somebody. They are not the suicide bombers, they are Arabs, Muslims, People that are just trying to survive. We whine when we lose the Magic Café for a couple of days.

We are trying to see through their eyes with our glasses, and it's blurry. But we don't understand why.

Either way, I'm out. My reasoned discourse is done burned out.
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 31, 2007 06:24PM)
Josh...I said no matter the country or the cause...there are those who will stand up and be afraid to fight for what they beleive is right. Of course it includes the other side...be our side is not short changed either.

I got involved when I did for the right reasons. So did millions of others in WW2 and now in the middle east...yes I believe we have the right cause because their cause is inihilation and elimination of civilization. Simple as that. get a clue.

TIM: MagicSanta means our Military has NOT been given leeway to win. Same as Vietnam. Political Correct crap...we go to win or we don't go should be the call...but it is not. There is not a force on the planet that stand up to this military organization. Personell or equipt. The best. Leadership, the best. But always holding it back are the likes of the worst...Washington Politiicans.


mmm...Steak is ready bye all


love ya Josh...achh...pitooey
Message: Posted by: Corona Smith (Oct 31, 2007 06:30PM)
The first casualty of war (and all that):

FROM BBC:

"Tensions were already high in Basra on Monday morning following the detention on Sunday of a senior figure in the Shia Mehdi Army, suspected of being behind a series of attacks on British troops.

Then two British soldiers, reportedly dressed as Arabs and driving a civilian car, attracted the notice of police at a checkpoint.

According to the Iraqi authorities they refused to stop, instead allegedly firing at the officers, killing one and wounding another. This has not been confirmed by the Ministry of Defence.

After allegedly declining to reveal their mission, the men were arrested and taken to the main Basra police station."

REST HERE:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4263648.stm

Agente Provocateurs?
Insurgents?
I dunno.
Sure is strange though.
Message: Posted by: Joey Stalin (Oct 31, 2007 06:41PM)
No history lessons about the God of Abraham, reflecting upon stereotypes, commenting on the US military ect. ect. is not on topic. And as dumb as your reference to the act bordering on being unsuitable, comparing it to Michael Richards at the Laugh Factory. If you think it's hard to see a line between the two you must be either a fool or blind. Or in other words a Troll.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 06:53PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 19:24, Doug Higley wrote:

TIM: MagicSanta means our Military has NOT been given leeway to win. Same as Vietnam. Political Correct crap...we go to win or we don't go should be the call...but it is not. There is not a force on the planet that stand up to this military organization.
[/quote]

Hi Doug,


Things have changed since WW2. In WW2 the total US debt was only 43 Billion. The US is now integrated into a world economy and dependent on foreign oil as well as other products including foreign money. The US debt with China and Japan alone now exceeds One Trillion dollars. Arab countries hold 100 Billion of US debt.

The US might still have the strongest military but it knows it can't flip off the investors to badly. I'd say this is also a reason those politicians pull back on the reigns every now and then. Diplomacy is a stronger weapon in some cases than saber rattling.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 31, 2007 06:55PM)
Josh where in hell did I say any of that? I call on the Muslims ELSEWHERE to stand up as they are surley the future victims. Those in Iraq have stood up. ARE fighting for their freedom and lives and taking over the job. They need to be praised and honored by the Muslims everywhere. IF the word would get out.
Message: Posted by: Corona Smith (Oct 31, 2007 06:56PM)
Better learn chinese quick folks!








Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 07:01PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 19:41, Joey Stalin wrote:
No history lessons about the God of Abraham, reflecting upon stereotypes, commenting on the US military ect. ect. is not on topic. And as dumb as your reference to the act bordering on being unsuitable, comparing it to Michael Richards at the Laugh Factory. If you think it's hard to see a line between the two you must be either a fool or blind. Or in other words a Troll.
[/quote]

Joey,

What is the topic then? Can you tell us that for a change instead of juvenile name calling. Didn't you notice how all the big boys expressed themselves here without name calling? You keep jumping in here with the same thing. Have you notice nobody else comments on your posts in this thread? They don't make sense. Give us the facts as to what this thread is about will you?

Again I'll say it... You posted you liked the routine. I posted I didn't. Someone else posted they disagreed with me and it went from there, back and forth as to if the stereotype was good, bad whatever. What topic are you thinking we are missing here??? Please tell us. Over 100 posts in the thread so there must be some sort of topic.

So you're a fan of Jeffs and your feelings are hurt because the thread didn't become a fanclub thread. Well I'm a fan of Jeffs as well. I was watching him live on stage before you were even born. You're about 20 years old right? I've watched his career grow with each character he presented. Each was fantastic. I was aware of Achmed but didn't mention my thoughts on it until YOU posted here. Maybe next time... post ..."watch this video but don't comment on it"

Tim
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Oct 31, 2007 07:21PM)
Tim we have enough money, materials and highly skilled personel to end ANY war in short shrift. Nothing wrong with diplomacy IF the diplomats have the spine...they usually don't because they are also not backed by the really spineless.

Problem is this...when the big guns and mushrooms are held by a doomsday cult then not much else matters...you get the job done and worry about tears from France later. Politics ceases to be viable.

I'm out...I'd rather be silly.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 07:31PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 20:21, Doug Higley wrote:
Tim we have enough money, materials and highly skilled personel to end ANY war in short shrift. Nothing wrong with diplomacy IF the diplomats have the spine...they usually don't because they are also not backed by the really spineless.

Problem is this...when the big guns and mushrooms are held by a doomsday cult then not much else matters...you get the job done and worry about tears from France later. Politics ceases to be viable.

I'm out...I'd rather be silly.
[/quote]

Hi Doug,

The problem is that most of the kids on the block have mushrooms as well now and others are growing them. This is another reason why diplomacy is something to strive for. Sorry to loose you as yours is a civil voice of discussion. I'm with you as well. I'd rather be funny. I'm sure we can spend all day tomorrow talking about Phenomenon. Love it or hate it its a popular topic as well.

Its just about all been said and I doubt there is any more to say without it getting way political and deleted. I'm happy the mods let it go this far ..especially since I challenged Joey to report it if really was off the imaginary topic he is hoping for.

If it does get deleted the politics will be its end but the discussion has been most interesting and educational for me. There is at time to realize something has run its course and I think this has.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 31, 2007 07:43PM)
Only Doug understands me.....sad.
Message: Posted by: Corona Smith (Oct 31, 2007 07:43PM)
Topic derailing guilt led me to watch the clip.

It wasn't very funny in my opinion.

Neither was it offensive.

Just a bit dull.

Quality vent act though.

He should get himself a gopher, they're all the rage in Europe.

Corona.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 31, 2007 08:19PM)
Wasn't there a British guy that used to do an act with a ferret about 25 years ago. Can't remember his name. Ferret down the pants, etc. Anyone?

As for the politics . . . I ain't biting this time.


Jack Shalom
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 31, 2007 09:17PM)
Corona...I am going to hate myself for asking this...but I must. I met a woman from England who was clearly nuts, she was....an artist. She said that they put gophers on stage and then speak for the gophers or something. She wasn't a very good communicator, being drunk and all, but I wasn't sure if she was serious or not. Now you mention gophers as all the rage, was she serious?
Message: Posted by: Corona Smith (Oct 31, 2007 09:25PM)
Deadly. They even have a union now.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 31, 2007 10:04PM)
Is it possible to see a video of these gophers?
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Oct 31, 2007 10:13PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-31 23:04, MagicSanta wrote:
Is it possible to see a video of these gophers?
[/quote]

Will this do? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krVXRCcr2M4

Ok..Joey...NOW I'm off topic. LOL I admit it. Its time to chill and have some fun with this.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Oct 31, 2007 10:57PM)
My dog looks like that gopher. (Yorkie)
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Nov 1, 2007 09:05AM)
Curious how a discussion begun over a puppet has escalated into an argument over racial stereotypes, religious zealotry, military power and political ineptitude. Are we really not taking it all a little too seriously?
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Nov 1, 2007 09:30AM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-01 10:05, Skip Way wrote:
Curious how a discussion begun over a puppet has escalated into an argument over racial stereotypes, religious zealotry, military power and political ineptitude. Are we really not taking it all a little too seriously?
[/quote]

Hi Skip,

In all fairness.. the puppet is about racial stereotypes and religious zealotry so it was fair game. Its a touchy subject and thus not one best included in a comedy routine. Lets be honest.. its not really the puppet speaking..LOL Its a real person saying things like " Kill the Jews" A piece of wood on your hand shouldn't protect you from any waves your words might create.

Yes... the thread got too serious but as I predicted in the beginning of it..it was bound to happen when such a heated subject is broached.

Yes... Achmed is only a piece of wood. But then so again is a match. Both should stay away from subjects quick to enflame.

I think for the most part everyone behaved themselves and I for one enjoyed our little discussion. I don't see any harm done. It seems others had something to say as well as quite a few posts were made on both sides. I respect the opinions of all those who had a viewpoint on the subject. You'll note that we all settled down in the end when we realized we had gone about as far as we could without opening up something more serious. Lest hope some day the rest of the world can do that. LOL

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Nov 1, 2007 09:46AM)
Tim, you're a good man. Hope to meet you one day...as long as you promise not to talk about puppets or matches. :) Best to ya!
Message: Posted by: Rupert Bair (Nov 1, 2007 09:47AM)
Silence, I kill you.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Nov 1, 2007 09:50AM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-01 10:47, Matt Colman wrote:
Silence, I kill you.
[/quote]

Matt... Now THAT'S funny!

Skip... till we meet again. ( AND TALK MAGIC! LOL )

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Nov 1, 2007 11:02AM)
Doug spit at me, via post....

That reminds me of another time in U.S. history where people couldn't seem to grasp that they were spitting on the wrong people. My boss came back from Vietnam, he told me some stories. Odd how things change, and yet stay the same.

I love you too Doug (No spit). Although I'm arguing on the side of the Muslims, I don't necessarily disagree with you or even MagicSanta (How could I ever disagree with Santa, I know who he is under the Santa suit), or with Timothy. I am of the mind that in [i]all cases[/i] the true answer does not lie in any extreme, but rather closer to the middle. Extreme ideas bring about radical change, reasonable ideas rarely do anything, but that doesn't make them less reasonable.

I completely disagree with Joey Stalin, that was a great clip, and no matter how he tries to hijack this thread, it's still a great clip. I really don't see the problems with the clip, just some of the sentiments that have crossed over to this very green place.


Bannana Hammock!
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Nov 1, 2007 05:15PM)
I never spit at you or on you...that was an 'aside Pitooey'
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 1, 2007 06:42PM)
Josh has peeked under my tunic.
Message: Posted by: Corona Smith (Nov 1, 2007 07:32PM)
I bet there was a host of gopher squatters under there.
Message: Posted by: sparks (Nov 1, 2007 08:23PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 16:18, MagicSanta wrote:
My favorite in law, a Palestinian, says the Mosad attacked on 911. I just don't discuss it with him, kind of sad really.
[/quote]

That IS sad...
Message: Posted by: gabelson (Nov 20, 2007 06:36PM)
As a comedy writer for the past 30 years who has witnessed the winds blowing in every directions, I can say without reservation that political correctness is the death of humor. The P.C. mania has died down a bit from where it was in the 90's, still, a show like "All In the Family" would probably not get greenlit by a major network today. It could only exist on cable. The Achmed routine is not nearly as edgy and racially charged as most South Park episodes. That doesn't mean we can't be sensitive. Imus was insensitive. Why? Because he wasn't funny. If the writing is insightful, and highlights the human condition; our own fears and predjudices in an intelligent, funny way, racial humor can work: ie; "All In the Family", "South Park", "Team America", etc. If it ISN'T funny, and simply mean-spirited, THAT'S when it becomes offensive. Don't forget folks, the routine is NOT Achmed the MUSLIM, but Achmed the dead TERRORIST. So are we objecting to dead terrorists?
Message: Posted by: Rupert Bair (Nov 20, 2007 06:39PM)
I think 9/10 dead terrorists would be offended at this. For starters for grossly exaggerating there height, come on as if they where that big.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Nov 20, 2007 07:57PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-20 19:36, gabelson wrote:
The P.C. mania has died down a bit from where it was in the 90's, still, a show like "All In the Family" would probably not get greenlit by a major network today. Don't forget folks, the routine is NOT Achmed the MUSLIM, but Achmed the dead TERRORIST. So are we objecting to dead terrorists?
[/quote]

Hello Gabelson,

I really like All in the Family. It was edgy humor but really made fun of bigotry and not really of races or religion. It also has some VERY good writing. You are right that a PC movement led to it vanishing from television for a while. I think that PC movement didn't watch the show or they would have seen what it was really about.

I'd like to correct you on one thing though. Achmed was not only a terrorist but was indeed featured as a Muslim in Jeffs routine. He specifically refers to Alah ,72 virgins..etc which reflected his Muslim faith.

The topic got pretty heated and I'm surprised and happy the mods did not delete it or remove it. Open discussion is a good thing and we had lots of that here.

And.. yes a dead terrorist is a good thing. Even if its only a "flesh wound" ( my favorite line from the routine) LOL

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: balducci (Nov 20, 2007 08:10PM)
Tim really hit it on the head. The routine might be called "Achmed the dead Terrorist" but many people inherently perceive it as "Achmed the dead MUSLIM Terrorist". Many of the jokes have nothing to do with terrorism, and everything to do with Muslim stereotypes.

And, also, Jewish [cheap] and Catholic [homosexual priests] sterotypes. When the puppet told the joke about the Jews fighting over the penny, what were people in the audience really laughing at? If someone relates that joke to a colleague at work the next day, are they making some sort of satirical insight or are they perpetuating a stereotype?

I think the concept behind the routine was good (a dead terrorist puppet), but I think its reliance on stereotypes (Muslim, Jew, and Catholic) for cheap laughs reduces its effectiveness in some ways.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 20, 2007 10:35PM)
Why haven't they declared a death warrant for the guys at South Park? Those poor Dutch guys are on the list, I think the South Park guys were hoping for some press.
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Nov 20, 2007 11:25PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-20 23:35, MagicSanta wrote:
Why haven't they declared a death warrant for the guys at South Park? Those poor Dutch guys are on the list, I think the South Park guys were hoping for some press.
[/quote]

Good point. I think the answer is that South Park is an equal opportunity offender. They pick on everyone and thus single out nobody. Does that make sense? LOL

I enjoy the show but have been known to turn if off when they cross the line from time to time. Even South Park characters know when they cross the line. Remember the Christopher Reeve episode where he main characters kept walking off screen because they didn't want to be part of that episode? I thought that was pretty clever.

I thought it was small of Issac Hayes to leave the show when they picked on his religion after he had participated in picking on ALL the others for so many years.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: balducci (Nov 20, 2007 11:53PM)
This is old news, but South Park was being cleaned up for syndication:

http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/2005/09/cleaning_up_sou.html

But more likely the episodes especially offensive to Muslims, say, were simply not broadcast in certain foreign markets.

Much like the comic strip "For Better or For Worse" gets censored sometimes, so that some of its daily strips do not appear in certain markets.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 21, 2007 12:45AM)
Doesn't matter, they showed the image of Mohammed, they must die...it is only fair.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Nov 21, 2007 02:26PM)
LOL
So much already said. Quite frankly, I am and have been sick and tired of all the sensitivity b.s. over stereotyping or profiling in society in general... blah blah blah.
You know people are people and it's funny to make fun of each other. When it goes beyond humor for humors sake etc and becomes obvious racism or hate then that's different. And it is usually very obvious to tell the difference. There are times when profiling is just common sense. It's noticing and acknowledging differences in groups of people. Whoopee! Guess what, we are all different and in some respects unique but we do fall into certain categories. Deal with it. And nothing is wrong with someone pointing out differences and making a joke about it. it's always been that way and always will. Political correctness and the subtle ways it attempts to control society needs to be thrown out altogether.
More later, I got to go now. Just had to chime in here, however late to the party I am.

GlenD

p.s.- I saw the bit on comedy central weeks ago and thought it was sort of funny for a while (especially the visual) but not as good as it could have been.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Nov 21, 2007 02:58PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-21 15:26, GlenD wrote:

You know people are people and it's funny to make fun of each other. When it goes beyond humor for humors sake etc and becomes obvious racism or hate then that's different. And it is usually very obvious to tell the difference.
[/quote]
So just to be clear, you're saying the joke in Achmed the Terrorist's routine about Jews being cheap and fighting over a penny and the joke about Catholic bishops fighting over a little boy for sexual gratification are funny, and that is just good clean fun? You say it is funny to be make fun of each other. Who is being made fun of here, the "Jews" and "Catholics". That's okay? You think the average Jew and Catholic bishop shares in the joke as much as you do?
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Nov 21, 2007 03:29PM)
Ehh... as I also said, I did not find the routine all that funny. If you're watching a tv show or movie or whatever and you get offended by the content then walk out or turn the channel. No big deal. Who said anything about comedy on comedy central as being good clean fun?

GlenD
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Nov 21, 2007 04:48PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-21 15:58, balducci wrote:
That's okay? You think the average Jew and Catholic bishop shares in the joke as much as you do?
[/quote]

Well, they do if they have a sense of humor.

Why not make fun of people? Why not make fun of them because of their color or religion or alcoholic disposition or the size of their baby maker? Who makes the rules here?

What bothers me about this whole discussion is that there seem to be people who think that it is unethical to hurt people's feelings. So? I get my feelings hurt daily--I don't ask for compensation or for people to be forced to shut up.

I wish we lived in a tougher world. I think a tougher world would be--paradoxically--more sensitive, because people would be forced to think about souls and hearts and what makes people truly love and hate rather than focusing on all this superficial "I wear a cowboy hat and don't you dare make fun of me for wearing it" stuff.

I wear my cowboy hat in public all the time, and people laugh openly in the streets. I wear it anyway, because I'm not a silly crybaby. Well, I am, but not about my hat.

When it comes to humor, anything goes, period. Nothing is or should be sacred. Once things become off limits, we are depriving ourselves of the primary function of humor, which is to remind us that we are not gods. (Go ask Aristophanes.) To say I cannot make fun of, say, someone with a pink forehead is to say that a person with a pink forehead is a god.

Is some humor rude? Yes. Is some humor disgusting? Yes. Is some humor inappropriate? Of course. So what? IS IT FUNNY? If so, then laugh. If your laughter offends, think about who you are and why you think something offensive is funny...and learn from it.

Folks...if you don't allow it, you'll never learn from it.

I'll repeat, because I've had a lot of Guinness tonight and I'm very wise when I've been drinking: If you don't allow something to be joked about, you'll never learn anything from the joke.

And we are on this earth to learn.

WORD!

Jeff
Message: Posted by: balducci (Nov 21, 2007 10:10PM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-21 17:48, stoneunhinged wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-11-21 15:58, balducci wrote:
That's okay? You think the average Jew and Catholic bishop shares in the joke as much as you do?
[/quote]

Well, they do if they have a sense of humor.

Why not make fun of people? Why not make fun of them because of their color or religion or alcoholic disposition or the size of their baby maker? Who makes the rules here?
[/quote]
You think saying "Jews are so cheap they'll fight over a penny" or "Catholic bishops are all homosexuals" as done in the Achmed routine really qualifies as jokes?

Playing off a stereotype to make a joke is one thing. Simply stating a stereotype in order to get a laugh is a cheap and rather tasteless attempt at humour.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Maybe I just don't find 'obvious' or cheap attempts at humour very funny.

I saw "snakes on a plane" this evening (which incidentally isn't all that bad of a movie ... at least not nearly as bad as some reviews made out). There is a male steward on the flight. Everyone assumes he's gay because of his look, voice, and demeanor. At one point he mentions his girlfriend. A passenger says "girlfriend, yeah, right". At the end of the flight we find out that the steward really isn't gay and actually has a hot girlfriend. It's sort of a funny little scene near the end of the movie. In that case, they successfully played off a stereotype to make a joke. But the stereotype itself wasn't the joke.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Muggle (Dec 3, 2007 04:21AM)
We had a get together at my home this weekend and watched Jeff's routine with a few couples we associate and perform with. The overall consensus was Jeff's routine is genius and carefully done. Afterwards, a discussion broke out regarding some of Jeff's stereotypical bits and surprisingly there was more outrage over the 'comedy' found on Comedy Central, BET and HBO.

Our final analysis was in the end; to each their own. We can't mandate morality, ethics or prevent the use of stereotypes in entertainment - but we can do our best to ensure our routines are produced and designed as carefully as possible when dealing with the hot topics of the day. Jeff took risks - no question about it, but that's the difference between a professional and an amateur. In this case his risks paid off...in the future, he may not be so lucky.
Message: Posted by: Samuel Catoe (Dec 27, 2007 03:48PM)
It's comedy folks. Nothing more. Personally, I liked it. I liked it even more when he first began using the puppet. It was not Achmed; it was Osama Bin Laden. It was more topical then than it would be now, but was just funnier than heck. I have to ask though if it would be better if it were a dead crusader that was being depicted? It's the same thing. Just because someone was a crusader doesn't make them a christian, but many were. Just because someone is a terrorist doesn't mean they are muslim but many are. So the puppet is muslim, ao what. Walter is a mean old man, but we don't sit here and fuss because he's making fun of old men.

Does this mean I am in favor of making fun of muslims or terrorists or old men? YES. It does. I am in favor of anything that's funny. No one should be exempt. If you're offended because someone makes fun of your group, grow some thicker skin. If someone is making fun of a race to degrade them in the eyes of others, shame on them for doing it and shame on us for laughing to it. That was not the case here. Dunham was not degrading a race of people. He was making fun of the terrorists who attacked the US so recently. Period. Not muslims, not arabs, the terrorists who attacked us. They just happen to be muslim and arabian. Had they been communist and chinese, they puppet and routine would have reflected that.

If you didn't like the routine, don't watch it. If you liked it, do like I did and buy it so you can watch it until your wife's ears bleed.
Message: Posted by: close_up_act (Mar 1, 2008 03:51AM)
I know this topic is old but I just have to add my two cents to it....like many have said on the post..."its comedy people"....his "racial" comedic performance isn't new....George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Andrew Dice Clay,George Lopez, Carlos Mencia, Jeff Dunham and the list goes on and on have racial jokes. You shouldn't take it so personal, if you do then don't watch it. Carlos Mencia is a perfect example, he says in his shows that he's going to talk about situations and events that we are afraid to say outloud, jeff's comedy is hilarious, he's not just talking about one race or culture, he has "bubba Jay" a nascar loving beer drinking redneck, "Sweet Daddy Dee" a flashy dressing smooth talking money hungry black agent, "Jose Jalepeno" a cuban/mexican immigrant with a slow lazy speaking strong accent who loves to sing and romance the ladies, "ahmed the terrorist", a muslim sucicide bomber who stongly believes in his culture and pokes fun about his sucicide training....Now with that said it doesn't mean that all white people are beer drinking nascar watching rednecks or all black people are smooth talking money hungery people, or all hispanics have a strong lazy accent and sing all day to romance there women or that all muslims are terrorists...It's freakin entertainment. My opinion is that jeff is doing a great job, he's very funny and talented and I can't wait for a 3rd tv special....Mandrake I thank you for posting, it was fun or should I say entertaining. and you can't forget about Walter, that character is my favorite.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 3, 2008 12:39PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 14:04, MagicSanta wrote:
During World War 2 they DID go after the Japanese in cartons (see Bugs Bunny and Popeye).
[/quote]

There was also a magazine cartoon justifying the internment of Japanese in California. It showed a long line of Japanese men, each giving the next one orders, stretching from California to the Emperor in Japan! It was drawn by Dr. Seuss!

You mentioned Popeye. I have two cartoons from Paramount with Superman. In one, "The Japatours," Superman stops a group of Japanese spies who are trying to steal a prototype airplane. (Think an aircraft carrier in the sky.) In another "The Eleventh Hour" SUPERMAN is the terrorist as he destroys some aspect of Japan's military each night at exactly 11:00!

[quote]
On 2007-10-28 16:16, MagicSanta wrote:
100 million hate filled Muslims? That makes me feel better. I doubt many of them watched the show in question so no harm no foul.

I have an announcement to make:

During World War Two the racist collective known as Canada interned people of Japanese decent....a total of 22,000 of them in fact. Canada, forcing people from their homes and locking them into camps. Unlike the US, which kept families together, Canada sent the men to.....WORK CAMPS with out their families. It should also be noted that the US allowed the interned to file suits against the policy, no record of this in Canada, and that the US ended the practice in 1944, five years before the hate filled Canadians. The US also paid money to the Japanese Americans and others of Japanese ancenstory detained (not enough in my opinion because many lost farm lands worth millions today) and issued an apology, again I could find no record of this occuring in Canada. It should also be noted that the thousands of German, Italian, and other European (that is right kids, caucasians) that were put into internment camps were not paid nor did they, as of 2004, receive an official apology.

I swear before God and man that I shall NEVER allow Canada to take advantage of a race of people like that again!
[/quote]

Thank you Magicsanta. I was unaware of other countries locking up Japanese. I thought it was pretty much just California.

Were any Germans or Italians locked up here? Seems to me we were at war with them too!
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 4, 2008 04:36AM)
[quote]
On 2007-11-20 20:57, Timothy Drake wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-11-20 19:36, gabelson wrote:
The P.C. mania has died down a bit from where it was in the 90's, still, a show like "All In the Family" would probably not get greenlit by a major network today. Don't forget folks, the routine is NOT Achmed the MUSLIM, but Achmed the dead TERRORIST. So are we objecting to dead terrorists?
[/quote]

How many non-Muslim terrorists are suicide bombers? Since Achmed is a suicide bomber, unless you can show a lot of non-Muslim suicide bombers, depicting Achmed as a Muslim is fair game.

A man tries to leave Islam, he is sentenced to death! The courts determine that he can not be executed because he is insane. The priests thunder from the pulpit that the courts are corrupt and the man must be killed.

A couple is attacked and raped by a gang of men. I don't know if the men are ever caught, but the couple is tried and convicted of violating Islamic law by being out without a chaperone for the woman and sentenced to be whipped!

I am leary around the concept of Islam.

Hey! The Video's gone!
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Mar 4, 2008 09:27AM)
Mandrake,

This is an old thread and I think everything that anyone wanted to say was said and maybe a bit more than that ...LOL

Feel free to debate it but please don't quote me as I wish not to be dragged back into it reopen this old wound thread again. I had many battles in with many people and we all pretty much agree its water under the bridge.

Many Thanks,

Tim

Day 4
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 4, 2008 09:53AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-04 10:27, Timothy Drake wrote:
Mandrake,

This is an old thread and I think everything that anyone wanted to say was said and maybe a bit more than that ...LOL

Feel free to debate it but please don't quote me as I wish not to be dragged back into it reopen this old wound thread again. I had many battles in with many people and we all pretty much agree its water under the bridge.

Many Thanks,

Tim

Day 4
[/quote]

My apologies. It just took me awhile to come up with something to say.

I'm done.

Day 4
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Mar 4, 2008 09:58AM)
Many Thanks,

In my rush to post I should have mentioned that I have a friendly or at least peaceful relationship with all those I clashed with here in this thread. I'm enjoyng that I'm not looking to turn that aspect around. LOL We're all good guys.. we just have a few different views.

Best,

Tim

Day 4
Message: Posted by: zifferinolpm (Jul 7, 2008 04:31PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 11:38, Timothy Drake wrote:
Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion I find this video offensive to both Muslims and Jews. If this character were done with any other ethnic culture it'd be chastised but these days it seems to be Ok to bash Muslims.

Jeff is mega talented. I love all his other work. This is bad taste however.

Best,

Tim
[/quote]

Look, comedy is making fun of people, situations and circumstances. To say that this is in bad taste is crazy. Let's quit trying to be politically correct and loosen up a bit. You would have really loved this character back in 2001 when Jeff introduced him as Osama Bin Laden. Your head would have probabally exploded!
Message: Posted by: TomKMagic (Jul 7, 2008 08:27PM)
I'm gonna see Jeff Dunham on Sept 25 in Columbus, OH. I saw him 4 years ago at the Funny Bone in Columbus, but I know he has new material.

In Jeff's defense, he picks on many different types of people, including himself. Who is worse, Jeff for making the jokes, or us for laughing at them...? I don't think any harm is being done.
Message: Posted by: Brian S. Tanner (Jul 8, 2008 10:29PM)
I would first like to start off by saying I respect everyone's opinion. Even those with whom I disagree. With that, I'd like to voice my opinion on the subject.

It would seem to me that we are becoming too thin skinned in this country. We feel we must appease EVERYONE. It's getting to be absolutely ridiculous. I agree that we shouldn't make light of someone's personal tragedy. There's a limit. However, it just seems like you can't say "boo" without offending some people, and their delicate sensibilities. Enough already !

Most people will tell you that Blazing Saddles is one of the funniest movies they've ever seen. In this movie, Mel Brooks(a Jew) poked fun at everyone from Indians, ( I know "Native American" is the PC term. I still refer to them as Indians). Jews, Blacks, Hillbillies, Women, Gays, Nazis, Irish, and Chinese people.....and the list goes on. The movie is hysterical ! Is it P C ? No! Is it a polite little story ? Heavens no. Is it funny and entertaining even though certain ethnicities and faiths were messed with ? You bet your a#% !!!

See? Nobody got hurt. Nobody felt like a victim. Nobody who saw the movie was shattered, and rolled into a fetal position and cryed while they rocked themselves to sleep, after eating a bottle of sleeping pills.

If Dunham's character is truly insensitive to certain people, cannot the same be said of a magician, who slices, chops, cuts, saws, and impales his female asisstant(s)? Does this mean that the illusionist hates women, and wishes to use them at his whim and cause bodily harm ? Is he trying to OFFEND the females in his audience ? The answer: Certainly NOT !!!

Well, that's my feeling on the subject.
FWIW,
Brian
Message: Posted by: zifferinolpm (Jul 8, 2008 10:43PM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-08 23:29, B to the T wrote:
I would first like to start off by saying I respect everyone's opinion. Even those with whom I disagree. With that, I'd like to voice my opinion on the subject.

It would seem to me that we are becoming too thin skinned in this country. We feel we must appease EVERYONE. It's getting to be absolutely ridiculous. I agree that we shouldn't make light of someone's personal tragedy. There's a limit. However, it just seems like you can't say "boo" without offending some people, and their delicate sensibilities. Enough already !

Most people will tell you that Blazing Saddles is one of the funniest movies they've ever seen. In this movie, Mel Brooks(a Jew) poked fun at everyone from Indians, ( I know "Native American" is the PC term. I still refer to them as Indians). Jews, Blacks, Hillbillies, Women, Gays, Nazis, Irish, and Chinese people.....and the list goes on. The movie is hysterical ! Is it P C ? No! Is it a polite little story ? Heavens no. Is it funny and entertaining even though certain ethnicities and faiths were messed with ? You bet your a#% !!!

See? Nobody got hurt. Nobody felt like a victim. Nobody who saw the movie was shattered, and rolled into a fetal position and cryed while they rocked themselves to sleep, after eating a bottle of sleeping pills.

If Dunham's character is truly insensitive to certain people, cannot the same be said of a magician, who slices, chops, cuts, saws, and impales his female asisstant(s)? Does this mean that the illusionist hates women, and wishes to use them at his whim and cause bodily harm ? Is he trying to OFFEND the females in his audience ? The answer: Certainly NOT !!!

Well, that's my feeling on the subject.
FWIW,
Brian
[/quote]

To which I say AMEN!
Message: Posted by: Harry H (Jul 9, 2008 03:48PM)
Id just like to say(if I didn't already in this overlong thread)that Jeff Dunham is not funny.

Don't care if it's offensive comedy-so long as it's funny comedy.
Message: Posted by: Stevethomas (Jul 9, 2008 04:31PM)
For a guy who's "not funny", I'll bet he makes more money entertaining with a comedy act than most of his critics could. What about Lisa Lampinelli? She's an equal-opportunity offender, as well. Makes fun of everyone in the audience equally. How is it that these people "aren't funny", but continue to sell out big theaters?

When you say he's "not funny", that's a personal opinion. Let me ask you, how many times have you watched the "Achmed the Dead Terrorist" segment of that special? Why would you watch it entirely even once if it offends you? If there's something I find offensive (ex: Oprah Winfrey), I don't watch it. Unplug the TV and stay off youtube, and you won't be offended.

Steve
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 9, 2008 05:12PM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-09 17:31, Stevethomas wrote:
How is it that these people "aren't funny", but continue to sell out big theaters?
[/quote]

Pretty much the same way that people who nobody would call "talented chefs" sell a truckload of Big Macs.
Message: Posted by: Stevethomas (Jul 9, 2008 05:33PM)
But...McDonald's critics aren't saying that the Four Star cuisine they serve isn't up to standards, either. You get what you expect. You want a laugh, you watch something funny. You know what you're getting before you go. You don't go see a street mime work and expect a Quiet Riot concert.

Steve
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 9, 2008 05:34PM)
At Christmas I got a Dunham dvd at a gift exchange. My wife and I watched it a few days later. Neither of us thought he was very funny (Achmed wasn't on it, but I don't mind politically incorrect humor, so that didn't enter into the equation). The audience was laughing, to the point that we seriously considered the possibility that it was an invited audience or friends, relatives and acquaintences.

I know that everyone likes different types of comedy. Some like Bill Cosby while others prefer Eddy Murphy - but at least both of them are funny! ;^)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 9, 2008 05:59PM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 14:16, Timothy Drake wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 14:06, MagicSanta wrote:
Whoa...'sins of the past', are you saying the US sinned in fighting Japan?
[/quote]
No..but does " internment camp" mean anything? However I was referring to the stereotyping during the day. It was not fair then to the people of Japan or to the Japanese Americans who had to endure it. War is no excuse.
[/quote]
German-Americans and Italian-Americans were also held in interment camps in the USA during World War 2.


[quote]
On 2008-07-09 18:33, Stevethomas wrote:
But...McDonald's critics aren't saying that the Four Star cuisine they serve isn't up to standards, either. You get what you expect. You want a laugh, you watch something funny. You know what you're getting before you go. You don't go see a street mime work and expect a Quiet Riot concert.

Steve
[/quote]
If you're familiar with someone's work, you know what you're getting. If you just go to a comedy club on a random night, you might get funny comics, and you might not. The specifics of anyone's act are reasonably debatable; I was just taking issue with the lead of your last post, (i.e. for a guy who's not funny, he makes a lot of money doing comedy...). Any argument that remotely resembles "He must be a good artist; he's achieved commercial success" sets off my gag reflex.
Message: Posted by: Stevethomas (Jul 10, 2008 06:30AM)
I can't agree more...I would find a "cabinet and large animal" magician's performance boring and wouldn't attend or buy a marketed DVD of it. That doesn't mean he's not successful or wealthy from it. I also wouldn't complain about my dislikes in a public forum. I'd go see Mac King or the Amazing Jonathan and enjoy myself.

By the way, some talented chef did originally come up with a Big Mac recipe. Y'know, Olive Garden doesn't really send their cooks to Italy (as per the TV commercial) for cooking lessons. But people still eat there. If you don't like Big Macs...eat at Burger King.

There, gag away.

Steve
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 10, 2008 09:41AM)
It's not a matter of not liking Big Macs, or about not knowing what you're getting. It would be obvious (at least, I'd like to think it's obvious) that the line, "gee, they must have great chefs at McDonald's; they sell a ton of Big Macs" is ridiculous. Similarly, "Gee, he must be a great (fill in your favorite performance art here); he sells a lot of tickets"...
Message: Posted by: nums (Jul 10, 2008 11:20AM)
Can you say "joke"? I guess not. PC will be the death of humor and if you do not like it do not watch it or change the channel.

Please PM me with all of your routines to make sure that you do not offend women, kids, blonds, polish people, short, tall, fat, skinny, or whoever.

In my show I beat up on a lot of different types of people, including my wife. I LOVE my wife more than anything else on this earth but it is and she knows and takes it as A JOKE.

It is to me like the "N" word. It should be taken in context and not under the word alone.

My best friend is from Iran and I call him "towlehead". He gets the joke. Now if I called him a "towlehead" with malice he would be mad.

Lighten up peopleand laugh.

NUMS
Message: Posted by: calamari (Jul 10, 2008 04:20PM)
That was funny stuff, how come we got to the point that being white male means always having to say we are sorry. a black comedian a female comedian hell any non white male comedian could get up and tell a (funny) non PC joke and no one will bat an eye... but if you are a white male heaven forbid you might offend someone... Funny is Funny . and if you don't find the bit funny I believe you will find yourself in a very small minority that I will be making fun of.
Message: Posted by: Stevethomas (Jul 10, 2008 04:26PM)
Okay, let me ask you this...if you're offended by the "Achmed" segment of the Dunham special, are you offended by the redneck, hillbilly, NASCAR-loving character, as well? If so, isn't that being a bit selective? How about the characature of "Jose the Jalapeno (on a steeek)"...isn't that offensive to you, as well? Why would the middle-Eastern character be offensive to you and the others not?

Steve
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 10, 2008 05:13PM)
Finally got caught up on this thread from start to finish. In the interests of brevity and completeness, let me say that I agree with everything Leland has posted to this thread. And for reasons best made clear by his points, Tim McVeigh and Kaczinski (sp) are off-base to this discussion. Kaczinski's BROTHER TURNED HIM IN. McVeigh and Kaczinski aren't defended by apologists in the guise of any sort of group with any pretense to being moderate or reasonable people sharing their views. Nobody calls for widespread understanding of explanations of their actions, and there isn't a neighborhood in the country where people who share their race or religion would have hidden them (though I'm sure there is a compound or two). When radical fundamentalist Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses start hijacking planes, or when Osama Bin Laden's brother turns him just because it's the right thing to do, we can revisit the "We're all the same" discussion.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Jul 10, 2008 08:23PM)
My opening joke at a show for a bunch o' Natives (the term they used, which I kind of liked) in response to an ol' fella from AIM. "I want to assure all of you that my ancestors did not fight indians or take any land.....they were far too busy in the slave trade for that"....they loved it. Now the question, was I capping on my own ancestors or some one elses? The PC of you will get it wrong.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 10, 2008 11:24PM)
Question #2: Who was real butt of every ethnic joke on "All in the Family"? (Hint: It was the middle class white guy).
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Jul 11, 2008 12:08AM)
Dat is right! Lobo, you are alright brutha!
Message: Posted by: Brian S. Tanner (Jul 11, 2008 12:44AM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-11 00:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Question #2: Who was real butt of every ethnic joke on "All in the Family"? (Hint: It was the middle class white guy).
[/quote]

Sadly, it's alright for the middle class white guy to be the butt of the joke. But, if a "minority" character is the laughing stock, that's when all of the cry babies come out of the woodwork to chastise the pale face!

The reality is : ALL stereotype is based on TRUTH! So laugh while you can. If not you'll go nuts.....or for our PC friends: You may very well succumb to occasional states of dementia, followed by but not exclusive to bouts of anger.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jul 12, 2008 05:24AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 11:38, Timothy Drake wrote:
Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion I find this video offensive to both Muslims and Jews. If this character were done with any other ethnic culture it'd be chastised but these days it seems to be Ok to bash Muslims.

Jeff is mega talented. I love all his other work. This is bad taste however.

Best,

Tim
[/quote]

Bad taste,,but the only thing Jeff is tasting is the money he's making...
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jul 12, 2008 09:47AM)
[quote]
On 2007-10-28 11:38, Timothy Drake wrote:
Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion I find this video offensive to both Muslims and Jews. If this character were done with any other ethnic culture it'd be chastised but these days it seems to be Ok to bash Muslims.

Jeff is mega talented. I love all his other work. This is bad taste however.

Best,

Tim
[/quote]

You should be happy then that it was removed.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Aug 13, 2008 06:59AM)
Ran into a link today to this video. It hasn't been removed. To the contrary, on youtube it has nearly 60,000,000 views.

I did NOT mistype that last number. Consider all the youtube versions (with different language subtitles, etc.) and possible other internet film clip sights, and this certainly would be a contender for the single most watched internet video of all time.

Think about that.

Who is watching it?

I'm just guessing, but I think there are people in all parts of the world--as in, the Middle East, too--watching this clip and laughing their behinds off.

But in America the goodie-two-shoes "oh it's mighty offensive!" feel all good about themselves while not laughing.

Laugh a little, my friends! Laugh at racism! Laugh at terrorism! Laugh at poverty, hunger, death and war! Laugh and learn, and search your own souls, and then laugh some more.

Above all, laugh.

Or don't. Just think about death and loss and cry into your beer, like I do all the time. Hey, don't you want to be a little bit healthier than I am?

I love you all,
Jeff
Message: Posted by: Chris H (Aug 13, 2008 10:28AM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-10 17:20, calamari wrote:
That was funny stuff, how come we got to the point that being white male means always having to say we are sorry. a black comedian a female comedian hell any non white male comedian could get up and tell a (funny) non PC joke and no one will bat an eye... but if you are a white male heaven forbid you might offend someone... Funny is Funny . and if you don't find the bit funny I believe you will find yourself in a very small minority that I will be making fun of.
[/quote]

Billy Connolly does a great routine where he says that white, heterosexual men are the only group left that you can pick on and not have a protest march the following day, and it's so true. We seem to be the only ones willing to take it on the chin and laugh at ourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWMEAURoAXs

I don't think this is the full routine (anyone who is a fan of Billy's work will know that it changes every night), but it's atleast some of it. Don't watch it if you're a member of the PC brigade. I promise, you won't like it.

-- Topher
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Aug 13, 2008 10:40AM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-09 18:12, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-07-09 17:31, Stevethomas wrote:
How is it that these people "aren't funny", but continue to sell out big theaters?
[/quote]
Pretty much the same way that people who nobody would call "talented chefs" sell a truckload of Big Macs.
[/quote]
A maxim applying equally to hamburgers and hams:

"De gustibulus non disputantum."

There is no arguing with taste.
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (Aug 13, 2008 10:42AM)
I'm reminded of the story that Mel Brooks told about how Blazing Saddles was received by audiences. Almost every single complaint about the racist language came from white folks.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 14, 2008 10:48PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-13 07:59, stoneunhinged wrote:
Ran into a link today to this video. It hasn't been removed. To the contrary, on youtube it has nearly 60,000,000 views.

[/quote]

Well, that well may be, but the link at the beginning of this thread leads to a page that says; "Video removed for terms of use violation."

I thought the thing was funny. It would be difficult to use that type of humor with McVeigh since he (and a few friends) didn't constitute a "group."

"Achmead" is funny because he isn't representing an individual, but rather an extreme group and takes their point of view to a ludicrous level.

[quote]
On 2008-08-13 11:42, EsnRedshirt wrote:
I'm reminded of the story that Mel Brooks told about how Blazing Saddles was received by audiences. Almost every single complaint about the racist language came from white folks.
[/quote]

I did an off-Broadway play (closest I got to being a success) called "Deadwood Dick; Legend of the West!" In it, all the black characters banded about the "n" word on a constant basis. We white characters (I was a bartender, a sheriff's deputy and Jesse James) had to be content with lesser insults.

It was an article in "Jet" magazine that was our undoing. The article complained about blacks using the "n" word with each other. The producer took it to heart and asked the writer to write out all cases of the "n" word and replace them with other insults. Somehow, the punch went out of the story.

My favorite change was in regards to one character who was taking a _long_ time to die from a gunfight. One woman was supposed to say; "I wish this "n" would hurry up and croak! I'm gettin' hungry!" It was changed to "I wish this fool would hurry up and croak! etc." The night the change was made, the woman went "up" on her lines and in struggling for something to say, actually improved on the line; "I wish this.... CLONE would hurry up and croak! I'm gettin' hungry!"

Apparently Warren Burdine (who was the writer) is still trying to get this thing produced;

http://media.www.pittnews.com/media/storage/paper879/news/2004/05/26/Ae/Deadwood.Dick.Comes.Back.To.Life.On.The.Stage-1789435.shtml
Message: Posted by: alexander_may (Dec 18, 2008 11:08AM)
I just picked up this story today, about a TV containing Jeff & Achmed being banned in South Africa, following a complaint by a Muslim viewer:
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431866,00.html[/url]

This was in October, however, the ad has now made its way back to TV...
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Dec 18, 2008 01:10PM)
The link in the above link show the video having 76 million views.

Jeff Dunham has hit a nerve. He has my utmost respect.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 18, 2008 01:43PM)
He was just on Best *** Sports Show Period last night, and frightningly unfunny.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Dec 18, 2008 03:40PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-14 23:48, ed rhodes wrote:
I did an off-Broadway play (closest I got to being a success) called "Deadwood Dick: Legend of the West!"
[/quote]

That's really interesting. I was in a play back in 1980 (my high school "Senior Play") called, "Deadwood Dick, or The Game of Gold". Sounds much different from the one you were in, though! It was a melodrama, where the villain (me, as the character of Blackman Redburn - boy, there's a character name with a hint of race - though unintended) is booed, and the heroes are cheered.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jun 28, 2010 10:50PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-13 11:42, EsnRedshirt wrote:
I'm reminded of the story that Mel Brooks told about how Blazing Saddles was received by audiences. Almost every single complaint about the racist language came from white folks.
[/quote]

The fact that most of the most edgy humor is Blazing Saddles was written by his co-writer, Richard Pryor, may have had something to do with that.

As for the rest of this, I'd just remind everyone of one fundamental truth:

Terrorism is about creating fear. When you allow the Muslim Terrorist to make you afraid of all Muslims, you hand him his victory.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Jun 28, 2010 10:59PM)
I didn't know Pryor was a cowriter, that explains a lot of the jokes.

Pryor was a genius, his stand up works today just as well as when he did it.

When Muslims think everyone is against them the terrorist win.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Jun 28, 2010 11:03PM)
Oh, and by the way... before we get TOO high and mighty about people attacking civilians.

Remember that we committed genocidal warfare against the native Americans (including one of the earliest uses of biological warfare against civilians), burned an entire city of civilians alive in the fire bombing of Dresden, and are the only nation to ever use nuclear weapons in war at all and, in doing so, killed two entire cities of civilians.

War comes about when people start believing that *their* atrocities are okay while others' aren't. Dehumanizing the enemy is a always an important first step in that.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Jun 28, 2010 11:41PM)
We? A couple things there slick. First off the actions against the indians took place at a different time and was, from a modern perspective, terrible in many cases. The idea of using small pox intentially was evil, more so than the Spanish unintential spread of disease to reallllly wipe out a people. It does NOT justify the actions of islamic terrorist.

The bombing of Dresden was done by the British and was greatly in response to Nazi Germany bombing London, you know, a city full of civilians, over an extended period of time. We, the US, as allies of course supported the bombing. The targets were industrial and the workers behind the war effort. A lot of the damage resulted from horrific fires afterward. Of course the number of those stated killed was only about 220,000 more than actually were and what is considered accurate today by everyone except those using Dresden as an excuse, seemingly, for the terrorist to attack civilians.

We were the only country at the end of WW2 with the capability of using nuclear weapons. Do you think the Nazi's would have hesitated to use them? How about the Japanese? Would you have prefered a land invasion of Japan which likely would have resulted in a million combat deaths and countless more (okay, likely countable) suicides as was seen in Okinawa? Do you think that the terrorist would hesitate to use nuc weapons if they had them? Seemingly you would support them to do so in response to the bombing of Japan. Do you realize that between 80 and 100,000 people were killed in one raid in Tokyo with traditional bombs? More than the nucs killed (just not as sexy) by the way in a single bombing (initial) and the Japanese leadership did not give a crap at all because theirs was a victory or death stand. Getting them to surrender saved lives and thank goodness because the Japanese are good people. By the way both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were significant military targets and not just a pack of civilians as you imply.

You don't know history nor do you understand what little you have heard about. I also do not appreciate your excusing 'their' atrocities by pointing a finger at different situations and in the case of the indians, who you seem to think were all peace loving folks who just wanted to make blankets and jewelry and were not at times warriors themselves against other tribes and settlers, a different historical time. What next? You going to compare us to the Persians or Huns?