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Topic: Three tries to get it right/ mano tejera
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 30, 2007 07:24PM)
I want all to see one of the bsst coin Magicians of this century. I am honored that Mano decated this video clip to me and La Famiglia.However Mano's inspieations come from Tommy Nelson Downs and our own Jonathan Towensand.
Remember mano is [performing his routine called three tries to get it right without any gimmicks pure slight of hand.....
Enjoy this video
the godfather of mnagic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D7lAb5ZDek vinny
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Nov 30, 2007 07:50PM)
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNBEFLIPPIN BELEIVABLE
Vin, thanks so much for sharing that and tell Mano I miss him around here!
Mick
Message: Posted by: Father Photius (Nov 30, 2007 07:56PM)
Outstanding performance! Very good sleight skills and presentation.
Message: Posted by: Chad Barnard (Nov 30, 2007 08:52PM)
Vinny, when you're right, you're right. Mano's magic is a sight to behold.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Nov 30, 2007 08:53PM)
Quite entertaining...:)

Mano my brother, you haven't lost a step man...That handling is crazy. :D Those are some amazing hands you have. :) Thanks for showing them to me long time back. I have them in my credits of my newest offering. ;) Much respect!

And please know that we haven't forgotten you here my friend and we're holding it down around here for your return. Nice to get a peak here from the Godfather to know that your great magic can't be stopped, inside or out. ;) -La Famiglia RULES! -Mb
Message: Posted by: mrunge (Nov 30, 2007 08:59PM)
Fantastic! Thanks Vinny.

Mark. :thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: rannie (Nov 30, 2007 09:26PM)
Love and respect to mi hermano! Yo Capo....send my regards to Mano! The Manila Enforcer is in awe!

There you have it folks....something special from La Famiglia.
Message: Posted by: andrelimantara (Dec 1, 2007 01:37AM)
Nice stuff indeed....

Love it to pieces.

It's magical

Thanks for sharing

Andre
Message: Posted by: kannon (Dec 1, 2007 07:00AM)
Cheers Vinny....Cheers Mano really awesome to see your work, totally ungimmicked as well, unbelievable.
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Dec 1, 2007 07:42AM)
That was great! I could believe it gimmicked, but without, it is really amazing!! Thank you Mano for a cool performance and thank you for the link Vinny.....
Message: Posted by: cperkins (Dec 1, 2007 08:38AM)
More evidence from Mano that he has very special talents with coins. His ability to show us all new miracles sets him apart from all but the most elite coin workers in which he shares a place.

Great stuff, Mano...new and edgy and a wonderful evolution of Townsend's original visual coins across!

Mano, another bravo to you...thanks for sharing it at the Café!

More please!
Message: Posted by: magicblademan (Dec 1, 2007 01:50PM)
Mano all the best ...can't wait till you release some of your material..

shame you don't post here anymore.

Best

Blade.
Message: Posted by: Verricobl (Dec 1, 2007 09:05PM)
Amazing Mano! Amazing! For me, you are one of the best in sleight of hand. I hope to see more of your work. Thanks for sharing this godfather. Please keep us posted on the latest.
Message: Posted by: smithpaul60 (Dec 1, 2007 09:52PM)
Beautiful.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Dec 1, 2007 11:10PM)
Fantastic, I liked the whole presentation. mano's skill is far beyond just the moves
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Dec 2, 2007 04:49AM)
That was funny. It would be nice to see that with a real audience.
Message: Posted by: joseph (Dec 2, 2007 06:06AM)
Agreed...Very good...
Message: Posted by: qkeli (Dec 2, 2007 06:27AM)
Completely amazing !! no gimmick, well is he a real human ??
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Dec 2, 2007 09:38AM)
Come back to the Café mano!!!!
Message: Posted by: magicblademan (Dec 2, 2007 12:20PM)
Come back to the Café mano!!!! I second that as well!
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Dec 2, 2007 03:46PM)
***well is he a real human ??***

You have to wonder! Not only is he an incredible magician but he's a top notch marathon runner as well and anyone that runs for FUN make me wonder! :)
Message: Posted by: aiki (Dec 3, 2007 11:13AM)
I can not see the video, says it is private. Has the video been changed since it was posted?
Message: Posted by: Chad Barnard (Dec 3, 2007 11:19AM)
In the past, Mano has preferred that links to his videos not be posted here. In this case, it might be different, but this has come up in the past.
Message: Posted by: mfeld (Dec 4, 2007 01:38AM)
As always Mano's sleight of hand is incredible...

but....

I have this question: What is the effect?

The technique is pretty amazing, but if I tried to describe to someone what the effect was, I don't think I would even know where to start. Maybe it's just because I am currently reading Ortiz's Strong Magic that I am constantly thinking through this lens, but I think clarity of effect is very important (not necessarily simplicity of effect... the effect can be complicated, but it should also be clear). And in this case, I found it very difficult to follow along with what was SUPPOSED to be happening.

Brilliant technique, but I really think that the first 20 pages of Darwin Ortiz's Strong Magic should be required reading for all magicians.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 4, 2007 03:07AM)
Ortiz should be required reading...However what Mano does in his techniques Ortiz can not teach because this is only unique to Mano...
Mano in the very near future will be releasing a dvd which will reveal all or most of his ideas.....The name as far as I can recall is Mano's Way.....
I hope ths helps
vinny
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Dec 4, 2007 05:18AM)
I can't wait for that DVD to come out! It has to be cool.....
Message: Posted by: mfeld (Dec 4, 2007 07:55AM)
Vinny, Darwin Ortiz's book is not a book of methods or routines. It is a book on presentational theory, and how to make the routines you have stronger (Afterall, Ortiz is primarily a card magician anyway).

Certainly this looks like work original to Mano, I just think a routine like this would have a diminished impact on an audience, because it is more confusing than magical. This looks more like a for-magicians-only routine, than something that would play for laymen, and I just think Ortiz explains why very well in his chapter about clarity of effect.

The technique is great, I just come away not knowing what was supposed to have happened, so it's great sleight of hand, I just don't think its "magic." Because the effect in this routine seems unclear, and coins seem to reappear for no reason only to hide the existance of another coin we know should have been there, begs the spectator to recognize that there IS a solution (careful concealment), we just don't know exactly what it is. I think strong magic begs the spectator to conclude that there is simply no possible solution.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Dec 4, 2007 08:02AM)
Mfeld, I'm not sure how its not clear to be quite honest. its almost a story trick. if he had use 3 silver coins this might not work, but this reminds me of cardini in that the magic is happening to him, not by him.
Message: Posted by: vmendoza (Dec 4, 2007 10:58AM)
The magic was beautiful.

Now put the tar and the feathers down - the history and cultural lesson in the patter needs to be looked at. There is no way that Nepal (Tibet) would willingly pal around with China. Just something to think about.
Message: Posted by: mfeld (Dec 5, 2007 04:05PM)
Ok, well maybe it's just me that didn't get the effect. If that's the case, then so be it.

Does anyone want to take 2 or 3 sentences and tell me what the overall effect is supposed to be?
Message: Posted by: Eric Jones (Dec 5, 2007 04:40PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-05 17:05, mfeld wrote:
Ok, well maybe it's just me that didn't get the effect. If that's the case, then so be it.

Does anyone want to take 2 or 3 sentences and tell me what the overall effect is supposed to be?
[/quote]

A good effect can be summed up in one....
Message: Posted by: georgecoolla (Dec 6, 2007 04:40AM)
The coins magically fly between magician's finger
Message: Posted by: georgecoolla (Dec 6, 2007 04:41AM)
I mean from hand to hand...sorry bad english
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Dec 6, 2007 07:57AM)
Sure, the magician is trying to do magic with the coins, but the coins are acting on their own will. (one sentence) this routine is more then a single trick however so he tries to do productions and vanishes and make the coins travel but the coins persistantly cause him problems. this has been done to great success by many pro's. I honestly believe only a magician would have a hard time seeing this, in we tend to oeverthink this type of thing
Message: Posted by: Eric Jones (Dec 6, 2007 08:06AM)
I think Mano should drop the patter all together and just do this to music. The script as written really detracts from the routine. Or at least shorten it. It felt like the routine went waaaaaaay too long. I dig Mano was trying to create the feel of having "spectators" present and fabricating interaction with the "spectators", but doing so in this case just made the people I sent this link to feel awkward, layman and magician.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Dec 6, 2007 08:30AM)
I can understand shortening it down a bit eric
Message: Posted by: Pete McEwen (Dec 6, 2007 08:49AM)
Hey everyone, Eric and I spoke about this routine a little bit. I just think it is a little long, and I also feel it gets confusing. That doesn't come from just my but from friends I let watch the video. A good routine to start with, I don't believe it should be a finished product. I think it could be more precise on what is happening. For a good feel of a routine where a magician tried to make something happen but fails is Kainoa Harbottle's Evolution from Shell Shocked.

I understand that a lot of people feel I'm harsh on this site or rarely have something nice to say. Perhaps I have a much more harsh set of friends and relatives and I have to deal with them.

With all that said, Mano has great hands, I mostly enjoyed the routine, I just think it could be shortened and cleaned up.

Pete
Message: Posted by: Zhang (Dec 6, 2007 09:42AM)
During a session with Mano, he showed me the routine 8 times,he told me the routine was created for laymen and it is supposed to be a bit confusing,because he miscall the coins at the very biggining of it,that is why he calls it that title which it is the name of the prudution of the 3 coins.

I did not find the routine long at all,maybe because I saw it live.

I think this one is version #2.

Maybe because I have watched the routine that many times live I don't find it confusing, if you ever come across Mano,ask him to perform it for you,this routine live looks like real magic..



Vincent,
I am from China and mentioned what is happening with China,Naple,Tibet, but he knew about that; he told me this just a coin routine where the patter unfold that way as he was playing with the routine and he did not want to start another patter.

Wu.

P.S I notice that we magicians tend to get confuse,especially when we see something knew, you are gonna get more confused with the next routine he'll be posting,it is just Mano's unique style, his coin magic is not like the ny coins guys,sankey etc, it is completely different and that create confusion,right?

P.S I'll let him know about the comments here.
Message: Posted by: Pete McEwen (Dec 6, 2007 10:10AM)
Yes, but I remember hearing someone say "confusion is not magic." I don't want my spectators confused, I want them to follow and watch magic happen. Magic is the difference in the start of the effect and the end. If you are confused about the beginning then when the end comes the effect will be lost on you. Once again these are my opinions. I know that this is Mano's style and it may very well work for him. If it works go ahead. I just figured I'd give my two cents.

Pete
Message: Posted by: mfeld (Dec 6, 2007 11:30AM)
I understand the idea of magic happening to the magician, and I think it's great. Cardini was amazing. But even cardini knew WHAT was happening, he just didn't know why. In this routine Mano (or Mano's character) doesn't even know what is supposed to be happening and this makes it very difficult to follow.

When I showed this to two of my laymen friends they asked me a question a minute and a half in (while he was performing). They asked why he didn't notice other coin had changed until he pulled the black coin out from in between them. Could he not see it?

Finally, I think the description of the video on YouTube says it all. the description of the video is "Hard to describe,LOL" Confusion is not magic. The idea is cool, but it needs to be streamlined and cleaned up. and while I generally like the idea of magic happening to the magician, this routine is already hard enough to follow without the magician being confused as well. I think this routine could benefit from a guide to tell me what's supposed to be happening.

I simply don't buy that laymen are less confused than I was. I love offbeat plots, I look for them, I perform them. but this one, as is, is confusing
Message: Posted by: Zhang (Dec 6, 2007 12:00PM)
I just spoke to mano on the phone and told him about the comments, and he agree the routine is confusing and that he was going to remove the clip.

Wu.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Dec 6, 2007 02:19PM)
That's what makes Mano the great guy that he is.
He listens to opinions and responds like a gentleman.

The idea of the coins messing with him is a really nice idea and the patter was fun. I too felt it was a little long and confusing. It can be a very good routine and I'm sure Mano can make it so.

Only my best to Mano.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 6, 2007 03:10PM)
GUYS REMEMBER MANO IS DOING THIS FOR A CAMERA NOT ALIVE AUDIENCE...
ANYHOW his effet does not use gimmicks of any kind and thbis is what is so amazing.
vinny
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Dec 6, 2007 03:37PM)
Vin,
Interacting with a live audience would make a difference.
As far as Mano's techniques go, he excels.
I'm grateful for Mano sharing his work and he has said more than once that he appreciates comments and opinions.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Dec 6, 2007 04:23PM)
I think sometimes it is okay to have routines that are a bit chaotic. Gary Kurtz coin magic in some ways was like this, the magic would keep hitting you over and over and over in a "Full Frontal Assault" to where you were kind of along for the ride. Gary's magic tended to be a bit more fast paced in doing so however.

Some of Kainoa Harbottle's routines have a level of rapid controlled chaos to them as well.

When I saw the video, it wasn't really so much bothered by the structure (though I did feel the pacing did languish on a bit), but the fact that both hands start out in front and to me look like he is holding something inside. So when the coins start appearing, to me it just looked like revealing coins that were held inside the hand.

Only when three coins are held in a fan, could he would then show one hand truely empty, but he couldn't do so with the other hand. He made gestures with the back of his hand that was holding out toward the camera, which I felt focused attention on the fact that he did not want to show inside the hand. (In other words I think it did the opposite of what was intended).

The hard part of doing coin magic with fistfulls of coins is that I think you need to be able to show both hands empty at some point during the routine. If the audience is not satisfied that the hands are empty, then producing objects from them might look technically impressive (as people have mentioned), but not be magical.

I'm not trying to say this is unique to Mano's routine because I struggle with this too. I think everyone does to some extent because for most routines you need to hold out coins. Personally, I like to try the best I can to build in moments you can show both hands empty in relatively short periods of time.

If you can make the audience really think that your hands were empty, it really makes productions more powerful.

In a way, it's the same "3 Fly" issue using 4 coins. If people suspect the 4th coin, it lessens the magic of the effect. If you can build in ways to show without a doubt only 3 coins in play, it strengthens the magic of the effect.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Dec 6, 2007 04:47PM)
"The hard part of doing coin magic with fistfulls of coins is that you need to be able to [b]show[/b] both hands empty sometimes during the routine."

Maybe I shouldn't take this so literally.
I can understand making it [b]appear[/b] that your hands hold nothing but don't feel it necessary to actually show empty palms or hands.

I'm not suggesting to not do as Dan suggests just that there seems to be a trend for over proving when it's not necessary.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 6, 2007 05:03PM)
Y'know, not for nothing here, I really felt that one of the more recent vid routines posted of Claudia was a bit too long. I actually couldn't finish watching it as it went on for so very long. I wasn't confused at all by it and it was pretty good stuff as I saw it but just too long. Her original 3-Fly vid (which had no talking at all) was just perfect for me and her best work IMHO. But the routines where she is telling stories or talking to the stuffed animals, etc., always hits me as being just too much story. Just my view but her work is still very good and I enjoy watching her. :)

I'm sure Mano will do whatever he thinks best as to his routines. He's got some great chops to be able to so casually handle coins the way he does, the ones you see and those invisible ones you don't see until he materializes them. :D Anyway, he's got a lot to work with and is clearly on the right tracks. Good luck Mano, I'm always cheering for you my friend. :)


*Oh and Dan, also as to your thoughts about holding out coins and bringing them into play, showing hands empty etc., I really like the way Sylvester The Jester conquered all that with his Sylvester's Pitch (Took a small page out of his book in my own work, Mano's too). ;) You never know what's coming at you and every time it's a real surprise, from one hand to the other, from one coin to many coins, to even an apple or maybe a large hex-nut. :D He truly amazes with that thing unlike any one else I have ever seen in regards to coin management and transit. Brilliant stuff that he can bring into play at varying paces and tempos! As I remember it, I think(?) he also does a 3-Fly effect using this method, solves a lot of problems when you can move coins around like him. :)

And finally, this quote "Confusion is not magic," I've heard before strangely in reference to Sylvester and even Mickey Silver...So my friend Mano is in great company I'd say and definitely on some ultra-creative right tracks...:D I personally have never been confused in watching them, unless I'm confused in my understanding of what truly being amazed is all about. And I don't think so. :) -Mb
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Dec 6, 2007 07:04PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-06 17:47, Jaz wrote:
"The hard part of doing coin magic with fistfulls of coins is that you need to be able to [b]show[/b] both hands empty sometimes during the routine."

Maybe I shouldn't take this so literally.
I can understand making it [b]appear[/b] that your hands hold nothing but don't feel it necessary to actually show empty palms or hands.

I'm not suggesting to not do as Dan suggests just that there seems to be a trend for over proving when it's not necessary.
[/quote]

Actually, I am being literal. However, I am not advocating over-proving. Just using a casual gesture so people can see the empty hand, not shoving the hand down their throat.

Now, I do know that sometimes methods dictate that it is impossible to show the hands empty, and you have to do your best to make the hands appear empty, but I think spectator's are often much more observant than we might give them credit for.

If they even think you are holding coins, then the magic is lessened.

Take a look at Geoff Latta's "A Trick with 3 Coins" as an example that comes to mind of casually showing empty hands during a production/vanish/coins across sequence.
Message: Posted by: mfeld (Dec 6, 2007 11:35PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-06 18:03, Mb217 wrote:
And finally, this quote "Confusion is not magic," I've heard before strangely in reference to Sylvester and even Mickey Silver...So my friend Mano is in great company I'd say and definitely on some ultra-creative right tracks...:D -Mb
[/quote]

Well so far I've never seen Mano or Mickey Silver perform in front of an audience, not even ever on video in front of an audience, but I've seen Sylvester perform at the Castle with a group of my laymen friends and their reaction was.... well.... let's say less than enthusiastic.

Afterall, Dai Vernon said "Confusion is not Magic."

And Darwin Ortiz says "At the end of an effect, your audience must not be in the least bit confused as to what just happened. They must be absolutely clear on what just happened. Only then can they really appreciate that what just happened is totally impossible."

and as much as Sylvester is creative, and Mickey does one move really well, Dai and Darwin are giants. They are the ones who can really provide the actual practical advice built off their own experience performing time and time again for audiences who were absolutely blown away.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 7, 2007 01:33AM)
You never seen Mickey perform live yet you state he does one thing well.. you are very wrong.......M<ckey IMO is the best coin worker of this century..bar none.

Darwin Ortiz is a teriffic magician but is one of the most boring....watching him on video or in person one falls asleep.....
Mano will some day be a house hold name because his moves are done by him alone.Tell me why Roth has asked mano to session with him??//this alone speaks highly of mano's work..Just because Veron or Ortiz said somethng that does not make it gospil.......that is only their opinion. just as you and I have our own opinions...
Message: Posted by: ASW (Dec 7, 2007 01:50AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 02:33, vinsmagic wrote:

Darwin Ortiz is a teriffic magician but is one of the most boring....watching him on video or in person one falls asleep.....
[/quote]

Make up your mind. What you wrote is oxymoronic. Either he's boring or a terrific magician, but he can't be both.

By the way, Ortiz isn't commenting on your little buddy's magic trick in the quotes above. I'm certain that Darwin wouldn't even know of the existence of this guy. Those quotes are from a book, so don't take it as a personal assault on your pal.
Message: Posted by: Pete McEwen (Dec 7, 2007 06:34AM)
Vinnie,
I don't mean to attack you, yet you claim that anyone that's close to you is the best. I've heard you claim Rannie is the best, Mano is the best, Mickeky Silver is the best. I just think you should pick one, it'll make the pick that much more professional.

On the other hand, I don't see what we're arguing about. A couple of us have stated that we feel the routine is confusing. Then WU says that Mano himself said it was confusing and took down that video. Why is there still an argument? I've had ideas that I thought were great and then I watched them and said, whoops. This is an idea that could work, but for this draft it needed improvement. It's hard not to see that. I plan on writing Mano personally to talk to him more about it because it does have potential. I think Mano is a great coin worker, the routine just needs work. I feel that if you're arguing that the routine is perfect, then you don't have a leg to stand on because the creator himself has said otherwise.

Pete
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 7, 2007 08:58AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 00:35, mfeld wrote:
and as much as Sylvester is creative, and Mickey does one move really well, Dai and Darwin are giants. They are the ones who can really provide the actual practical advice built off their own experience performing time and time again for audiences who were absolutely blown away.
[/quote]

Well, to each his own I guess. :) I've seen Darwin Ortiz work and he is brilliant at what he does. Never saw Dai Vernon in person do his thing but have seen him on vids, etc. I'm sure Mickey Silver and Sylvester really missed out on conferencing with them about their work...:D But I tellya what, I think if Dai Vernon saw Mickey Silver (with that supposed "one move" you mention) and Sylvester with what he does with that Pitch I think he would find them both amazing as most people do. I already know that Darwin Ortiz finds Mickey Silver amazing as I saw Mickey "amaze" him to no end once, and David Roth was there too (he loves card tricks). ;) Anyway I certainly respect these guy's perspectives on what's what but I am wary of folks that like to make "giants" of mere mortals, of which we humanly all are. I would think the whole issue of "confusion" would depend most deeply upon just who is being confused. I mean just suppose Vernon was confused by something but you weren't... Would you then think because Dai is perplexed that you should be also...I mean what else could you do under such circumstances put forth by a giant?

Seriously, not a big deal. You like what you like for the reasons you care to entertain and I respect that. :) I quite possibly could watch Mickey Silver and watch Darwin Ortiz and be more amazed by Mickey, and I was as a lot of people were telling by reactions. ;) Go figure! :) And I didn't miss any brilliance shown by either and they both were in their own ways. I guess one might've been a giant and the other a dwarf, but in front of a real audience I honestly could not tell. The only thing I could see and feel from the audience that clearly both were not dwarves of any kind. :)
Message: Posted by: maxmaximus (Dec 7, 2007 10:49AM)
Hi,

I think the combination of sleight of hand (technique,skill), natural moves and pefect timing is the key to good coin magic...all of the above mentioned persons are great coin workers but for me the only person who fooled and impressed me with his work is GIACOMO BERTINI .... but that's only my opinion .... oh and mickey silvers human slot machine is a thing of beauty ....

btw I am a member of the ibm ring vienna (austria) and we are thinking of an invitation of mr bertini for some lecture notes here in vienna, so giacomo when you read this pls pm me...thanks

greetz from austria
max
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 7, 2007 11:24AM)
Pete I never said rannie was the best I have stated in the PAST HE IS ONE OF THE BEST CREATIVE GUYS IN MAGIC.
In my life time I have seen many many magicians good and bad.. Mickey silver imo is a good as Slydini and goshman and mickey dosen't need a table when performing magic...Martin Nash has also stated this claim...when he seen mickey perform at the castle...
Mano is a unknown magician his skills with coins will some day be in be in the serious coin workers arsenal. he is that good...and his controls are origional with him..

Asw Ortiz is boring,,, ever wonder why his videos are not the best sellers list..because he is dull that's just my observation
Now for his skills and magical thinking he is second to none....\
so in this sense he can be both boring a teriffic...
and by the way I am a great fan of Ortiz .....as a person and teacher
Message: Posted by: Pete McEwen (Dec 7, 2007 11:53AM)
Vinnie, I don't have the time to go look back at all the previous threads. I just recall you've given out a lot of high praises to those loyal to you whenever you can. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just harder to take when you say it about everyone. Please don't take it as being an insult to those you've praised. I've never seen Mickey Silver work, but I've heard amazing things. I've seen a lot of Rannie's work and he's very creative and very skillful. Mano is very good at what he does as well. I do not wish to insult anyone with these comments. If I was going to insult someone I would attack your lack of punctuation and grammar (not attacking you personally, it's a very large pet peeve of mine.) I just figure that everyone only says good things about a lot of videos put up. I don't know if it's because they want to be liked or to fit in. But I would rather mention the weakpoints I find and try and make the routine better. If anyone disagrees, then please don't post a video and ask for suggestions or feedback.

Pete
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Dec 7, 2007 01:22PM)
As far as "magicians helping magicians" goes, I think Pete is on the ball here.
Message: Posted by: Zhang (Dec 7, 2007 01:34PM)
I too agree with Pete.

Wu.
Message: Posted by: travisb (Dec 7, 2007 03:41PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-06 17:23, Dan Watkins wrote:
When I saw the video, it wasn't really so much bothered by the structure (though I did feel the pacing did languish on a bit), but the fact that both hands start out in front and to me look like he is holding something inside. So when the coins start appearing, to me it just looked like revealing coins that were held inside the hand.
[/quote]

Same here. My general feeling is that a routine that's not structured for maximum deceptiveness probably ought not to be done at a pace that invites contemplation. I can see the routine working better (for me) if it was played a bit more like a coin flurry--[i]more[/i] of a sense of chaos, not less.

-Travis
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Dec 7, 2007 06:23PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 11:49, maxmaximus wrote:
the only person who fooled and impressed me with his work is GIACOMO BERTINI ....
[/quote]

Giacomo is doing fascinating work, indeed. Very, very talented man.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Dec 7, 2007 06:29PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 12:53, Pete McEwen wrote:
I would rather mention the weakpoints I find and try and make the routine better. If anyone disagrees, then please don't post a video and ask for suggestions or feedback.

Pete
[/quote]

Constructive criticism is a GOOD thing. :nod: I agree, there's an implicit invitation for it attached to any posted video.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 7, 2007 07:02PM)
Yes constructive criticism is agood thing./
When I put this video up it was my intention to show Manos skill without the use of gimmicks .....
some how rannie and mickey silvers name came up . I defended them by saying they are the very best IMO... and I have lived long enough to see many of the greats. I know for a fact Mickey and Mano are self tought just as Slydini was.....and what they do no one else does..this is what makes them unique...
then the post continues on about my lack of wrtting skills. and yes they do suck ,so what...
next there is talk about magicians helping magician let me say this my wrtting skills suck but I alawys have helped others and will continue to help.. this is how I got my name the godfather...

Mano has to work on his routine and patter as suggested but again look at the skill..my origional post..also this routine needs to be performed for a audience not a camera....
Lastly I meant no disrespect to anyone who commented on this thread we all have our points..good or bad
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Dec 7, 2007 07:19PM)
One thing that bothers me about some of the criticism I see on here is that the MOST critical always seems to come from the same folks that have never put any of their own work up for viewing and critique!
Message: Posted by: Chad Barnard (Dec 7, 2007 07:36PM)
Just for clarification, Pete McEwen has a couple of performances that have appeared on the Café.

http://themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=233225&forum=217

Godhandz goes without saying. His magic is everywhere.

And Feldman you can see a bit here:

http://www.magicmichael.com/Media.html

Or check out this thread where Godhandz and Bill Citino express their admiration for his work at the recent NY Coin Seminar.

http://themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=223566&forum=3&start=60

It's on page 3.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Dec 8, 2007 02:03PM)
My apologies to David Roth, David never asked Mano to session with him. my misunderstaning...
I hope David lurks and sees my comment to him.
I will not respond to this post anymore
the godfather
Message: Posted by: kannon (Dec 9, 2007 05:25PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 02:50, ASW wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 02:33, vinsmagic wrote:

Darwin Ortiz is a teriffic magician but is one of the most boring....watching him on video or in person one falls asleep.....
[/quote]

Make up your mind. What you wrote is oxymoronic. Either he's boring or a terrific magician, but he can't be both.
[/quote]

Of course you can. A great magician: could be a great thinker, sleight of hand, great misdirection ... but if they boring, they're boring: boring presentation, monotonous, etc

In line with Mano's presentation one thing he did a bit too much of was rock from foot to foot. There is a lot of power in stillness.
Message: Posted by: Chad Barnard (Dec 9, 2007 05:58PM)
I have to agree. Take Ray Kosby, for example. A lot of people think of him as a good creative mind in the field of magic. If you watch his old "Wow! It's Ray Kosby" tape though, you feel like he's the awkward, nervous wallflower in school and you're the head cheerleader that he's trying to ask out to prom. It's uncomfortable to watch in some places.

I love the ideas presented on the video though.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Dec 9, 2007 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 20:19, MickeyPainless wrote:
One thing that bothers me about some of the criticism I see on here is that the MOST critical always seems to come from the same folks that have never put any of their own work up for viewing and critique!
[/quote]

Oh come on Mick. That's really not fair man.
Critics of movies, books, chefs, fashion, etc, don't have to show or do these things better than those they critique. Right, wrong, helpful or not they simply voice thier opinions.
In this case maybe some folks are experienced in magic, have no way of posting it or care what other magicians think as well as other reasons.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Dec 9, 2007 08:20PM)
I hear ya Jaz! I was irritated at the moment and when I went back for an edit I couldn't! Sorry if any offense was taken by anyone!
Mick
Message: Posted by: ASW (Dec 10, 2007 03:19AM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-09 18:25, kannon wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 02:50, ASW wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-12-07 02:33, vinsmagic wrote:

Darwin Ortiz is a teriffic magician but is one of the most boring....watching him on video or in person one falls asleep.....
[/quote]

Make up your mind. What you wrote is oxymoronic. Either he's boring or a terrific magician, but he can't be both.
[/quote]

Of course you can. A great magician: could be a great thinker, sleight of hand, great misdirection ... but if they boring, they're boring: boring presentation, monotonous, etc

[/quote]


Well, I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage, since my later posts have been deleted. I won't rewrite them, but you might find [url=http://www.darwinortiz.com/entertainer-endorsements.php]this[/url] web page instructive.

Certainly the opinions expressed there have more weight for me than those of any hobbyist magician.

See, also, the bored and listless reactions of the people in [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch3o5tzYJpQ]this[/url] video.
Message: Posted by: Bill Citino (Dec 10, 2007 11:46AM)
So I've been lurking on this thread for a while and couldn't resist to post anymore...

With regards to the video. I must agree with what others have said, Pete McEwen specifically. I agree with everything he's said on the thread and am sad that he got criticized so badly for giving honest feedback.

I met Mano a while ago, and his skill is impressive. Anyone who has seen his "Mano-lift" off a hardwood table will attest to that. I was a little disappointed with this video though. The skill was def there, just the presentation lacked. I think if it was shortened and the presentation worked on, the routine would be very solid.

To address other posts, just so it doesn't come up and bite me later...I've posted videos of my own work on youtube a while ago. Unfortunately had to take them down for stupid reasons that I won't waste space on here. For those that are interested in seeing any of my work or want to know why I took them down, feel free to send a PM.

Back to the topic at hand, ultimately the skill was IMPRESSIVE as always, just the presentation needs a little work.

Also, Chad Barnard hit the nail of the coffin perfectly w/his thread links above. Way to look out for us Chad! :)

-Bill
Message: Posted by: magicblademan (Dec 10, 2007 12:20PM)
I think you are right on the mark there Bill,Pete and Chad's comment's were constructive ...how can we progress if people don't give us there opinions ,when I get round to posting some of my routines I hope people will be honest with there comments ...i don't want people saying it's good cause they don't want to hurt my feelings.

Best

Blade