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Topic: Coin sleights not worth practicing
Message: Posted by: iceblade (Dec 28, 2007 12:00AM)
There isn't one coin sleight not worth practicing. I'm talking about coin sleights that are not worth because the time and the effort to master them is much less than the payoff.
For me it would be:
1) Back palm: because it's very limited to the size of the coin you can use. I use tenkai pinch and other back clips instead
2) Harada Hold
And now I'm getting prepared to being shot by everyone:
3) Many moves form T Nelson Downs Modern Coin Manipulation. If you have the book eg. look at figures 5-8. He says: "if the reader ever desires to become a strictly first-class Coin Manipulator he should practise, practise, and keep on practising until all the above sleights become second nature to him, and he can then defy even expert conjurers to tell where the coin is". Now let me be clear with this. I wouldn't devote 1 second of my time on these moves, plus I've never seen anyone using them. eg 2: The "domino" with the coins (fig. 30).
Now I'm not saying for a second that Downs was a bad magician. I really just don't like his teaching style and judging by the way the book was written I think he was a bit of a show off (he was jealous of Malini hehe).
I know I'm gonna get killed and flamed beyond belief for judging him, I just can't figure out why it bothers just me (maybe something's wrong with me :))
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Dec 28, 2007 12:09AM)
Don't be too hard on yourself, iceblade. Challenge can be a good thing! Keep up the good work!
Message: Posted by: Wes65 (Dec 28, 2007 04:28AM)
I believe are in the golden age of coin magic....however, that is in a large part because of all the greats that have come before us.

I would be careful not to completely discount any sleight. However, I would focus on and practise primarily the ones I intend to use.
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Dec 28, 2007 05:40AM)
I think what you found Iceblade is that not every sleight is for everyone. The ones you found may work great for some, but obviously not others, you being included in the "others" list. What you need to do is find the sleights that work for "you". What is nice is that there are a zillion sleights out there, so finding the ones that work for "you" shouldn't be impossible, but it will take some work. Once you find the sleights that work for you, is when the practice, practice, practice comes in play.....
Message: Posted by: rikbrooks (Dec 28, 2007 05:40AM)
Your opinion may change as your skill grows. Be careful to keep an open mind. What today seems difficult to learn may tomorrow appear to be a triviality
Message: Posted by: feher (Dec 28, 2007 07:40AM)
On 2007-12-28 06:40, rikbrooks wrote:
Your opinion may change as your skill grows. Be careful to keep an open mind. What today seems difficult to learn may tomorrow appear to be a triviality
Could'nt say it better myself....lol so true so true.......
Remember Downs was a stage performer a lot of his sleights would be hard to do in a close up situation atleast the ones you mention.
Good luck do what works for you.
Message: Posted by: smithpaul60 (Dec 28, 2007 07:43AM)
Also according to my understanding, Downs put out MCM to sell him self not his magic. There are quite a few effect that are un-performable using just his descriotions. But there are also those worth looking at.
Message: Posted by: Chad Barnard (Dec 28, 2007 09:19AM)
You guys are right about Downs' "Modern Coin Manipulation". It's heavy with back-patting and light on explanation. Even the Dover reprint states that if one wants to actually learn the sleights they should look at Bobo's descriptions in "Modern Coin Magic" and Henry Hay's descriptions "The Amateur Magicians Handbook".

Like Feher said, Downs was a stage performer and his "Continuous Front & Back Palm" cannot be performed close up. It's not happening.

Smithpaul is also correct in saying that there is value in it as well. Think about it. Now U C It, Now U Don't, Gone! and Melt are all reinventions of the same paragraph that was cryptically titled "No. 1".

I actually think that there are some sleights that have lost their value. One that always comes to mind is "The Illusive Coin Pass" from Art of Magic and Bobo's. With the modern application of the various retention vanishes this sleight, IMO, is worthless.

Supposedly, through various word-of-mouth stories, T.J. Crawford thought the same once he saw Vernon's "A Coin Vanish".
Message: Posted by: iceblade (Dec 28, 2007 12:20PM)
Some nice opinions here. Just to clarify, I'm not referring to these "sleights" as useless, just that for me they are not worth practicing. Let me refere to an example. If I devote a loto of time for CP or Tenkai pinch the payoff is huge because I can use these sleights nearly many occasions. If I devote time to develop a good shuttle pass it's totally worth it. However for me eg I do mostly magic with euro coins so backpalm is useless (they are too small).
So I guess it comes down to what Fingers said, that every sleight is not for everyone. Of course I don't rule out any sleight. In the future I maybe using it.
However if I had to choose between one book Downs of Bobo it would be Bobo hands down. Don't get me me wrong there is some great stuff in Downs but for me most of it is pretty useless since I think it was really specific to the way Downs did magic and most of it could not be used in a more general fashion
Message: Posted by: obuch (Dec 29, 2007 05:29AM)
I have downs book and I don't use any of sleights from there but I think others might find it usefull. but I want to ask you - why harada hold isn't worth practicing?? I don't practice it cuz I don't like this sleight I prefer jw grip to show empty hand but why do you think its not worth? for me it looks like one of best coin sleights.
Message: Posted by: joseph (Dec 29, 2007 05:42AM)
It's called the Downs book, because when I practice the moves, the coin always falls Down under the couch where I can't reach it.... :mad: ..
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Dec 29, 2007 05:58AM)
Ditto what Chad said about the Downs book. Even Henry Hay was apologetic about the "hide the coin" finger gymnastics ice mentioned. I don't know about the front and back palm being completely useless close up, however. Recall Bertram's telling of the encounter between Downs and Vernon and Downs' vanish of the six coins close up. Even when he didn't use the gaff, Vernon didn't say it was awful.

There are a lot of sleights that I consider useless, at least as written. The French drop as described in Bobo's, and "Over the Top" (again from Bobo) for starters. Even "Over the Top" has some use, Kainoa found a way to exploit the awkward appearance of the move.

I'm not at all happy with the "Reverse French Drop" either. And has anyone ever tried "The Thumb Pass" from Hugard's "Coin Magic"? WTF?
Message: Posted by: iceblade (Dec 29, 2007 11:23AM)
On 2007-12-29 06:29, obuch wrote:
I have downs book and I don't use any of sleights from there but I think others might find it usefull. but I want to ask you - why harada hold isn't worth practicing?? I don't practice it cuz I don't like this sleight I prefer jw grip to show empty hand but why do you think its not worth? for me it looks like one of best coin sleights.
The idea of the Harada Hold is good, however its applications are very few and you may end up hurting your hand
Curtis I agree with you however regarding the reverse french drop if you modify it a little it can appear even more natural than the original one because you can hold the coin in a more natural way and it can be a pretty good take vanish (the way I do it I wouldn't ven call it a "drop")
However while the original french drop is considered an outdated sleight it's absolutely worth practicing for me because a) you can use it effectively in some situations (e.g if you have to hold the coin that way or to do Spellbound and b) you don't have to devote much of your time to learn it
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Dec 29, 2007 11:55AM)
Actually, there are a number of very effective ways of performing the French drop. Look at my method in the Encyclopedia of COin Sleights for one way. Somewhere in print you can find the ingenious way Gallo changed the stucture of the French frop, and it kills!
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Dec 29, 2007 12:35PM)
Ice, we're saying the same thing, but in different ways. The french drop, As Described In Bobo's is not worth practicing, because even if it didn't take long, you'd be doing it wrong.

That said, there are certainly effective Variations on the french drop, Mikes Gallo and Rubinstein's being among them, as well as Derek Dingle's.

I like the sound of your take on the "Reverse French Drop". It is a poor simulation of a drop, so you're probably on the right track. Changing the timing and blocking completely, it's a decent "toss" I suppose.
Message: Posted by: travisb (Dec 29, 2007 09:40PM)
I think that most click passes I've seen aren't worth it, although some are better than others (and I've seen a couple that I like). Away from home and so can't provide citations, but anyways I actually mostly just wanted to put in a good word for the Downs book. There's some real gold in there, so long as you ignore some of the more ridiculous finger contortions and gimmicks. I find it to be a very inspiring book, and the more carefully I read it, the more interesting I find it. If you haven't read it I strongly suggest giving it a try. I know I was surprised by some of the ideas I found in it, but I'll say no more...

Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Dec 30, 2007 02:41PM)
I use the reverse drop all the time! I did not lurn it from the book! I just saw someone do it and worked a handleing latter! And I use The backpalm all the time
too ! :)! ( Agen not the handleng from Bobo's! ) I find the angles so much better than a clip!
Message: Posted by: Wes65 (Dec 30, 2007 05:27PM)
Clint Eastwood (Harry Callahan, Magnum Force) said "a man's got to know his limitations"

A magician's got to his/her limitation too, and the limitations of the sleights he uses.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Dec 30, 2007 08:50PM)
Yea I know! I have seen people try to do sleights That thay have not mastered! :(
I would rather seen And Easy routine done well! Then a hard routine done badly!