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Topic: You be the judge...
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Dec 30, 2007 08:13AM)
I ran into Bill Smith at a magic convention in Las Vegas a few years back, he had several of his illusions on display.
It looks like one of them has been copied:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzY9Uz3Yuc&feature=related
http://dominikmagic.com/English/paypal/item048/item048.htm

On the surface this would seem like a clear rip off however when I examined the illusion and spoke to Bill I mentioned the fact it appeared to be a Lester Lake shredder working in a reverse direction.
He was quite firm this was not the same thing, stating the look, and method were different.
The only difference I found was a slight change to the method and the arm that moves the spikes.
Has Bill "reinvented" the shredder and claimed it as his own, or has a rip off been ripped off?
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 30, 2007 08:21AM)
Don't know, but looks horrible (I am not commenting on the lack of presentation either).
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (Dec 30, 2007 08:36AM)
I'm sorry but I can't watch those vids. Those two girls, and probably their father, have no clue as to what they are doing.

JMHO

Cheers! ;)
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Dec 30, 2007 08:48AM)
Now I see why this trio had such a hard time perfroming a knock-off of "Audience Dis-member."

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5ynAbBOZQSI

They spent all their time perfecting the performance of this one :)

Terry
Message: Posted by: darrylasher (Dec 30, 2007 09:44AM)
I dunno. Don't be too hard. The guy has some serious hand-gesturing skills. I mean, I didn't even notice how long it was taking, thanks to his mad hand-gesturing skillz!

-Darryl
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Dec 30, 2007 10:31AM)
Does anyone on this thread seriously think that these were actual performances we were seeing????????????????????????????????????????????

Looks from the surface to be someone exhibiting the illusions at a trade event with non "assistant"s. Have you ever seen some of the dealers demonstrate their products?? Not a pretty site at times!!

And as a further comment, as the spiker is to be done with someone from the audience, I have actually seen worse "assistants" used with professional performers for this same effect.

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Dec 30, 2007 12:45PM)
I recently purchased an authentic audience acupuncture from Bill Smith. It’s a Jim Steinmeyer design and Bill Smith is the only authorized builder. The video above makes me wanna throw up because the illusion has great potential for routining and presentation. I’m presenting it as a paradie on the table of death. I'm turning it around by using a girl from the audience! LOL!

Any whooo Dominik magic is a defiantly a rip off artist at its best! Stay away from anything they sell! I talked to a guy who owns a ladder levitation and his wife fell off and hit her head after is broke durring performance. JUNK!!!

Here is what a " real " audience acupuncture looks like. :0)

http://wadelive.com/Acupuncture1.jpg
http://wadelive.com/Acupuncture2.jpg
Message: Posted by: Magic Patrick (Dec 30, 2007 01:24PM)
Who cares, Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares!
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Dec 30, 2007 01:34PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-30 09:13, 61magic wrote:
I ran into Bill Smith at a magic convention in Las Vegas a few years back, he had several of his illusions on display.
It looks like one of them has been copied:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzY9Uz3Yuc&feature=related
http://dominikmagic.com/English/paypal/item048/item048.htm

On the surface this would seem like a clear rip off however when I examined the illusion and spoke to Bill I mentioned the fact it appeared to be a Lester Lake shredder working in a reverse direction.
He was quite firm this was not the same thing, stating the look, and method were different.
The only difference I found was a slight change to the method and the arm that moves the spikes.
Has Bill "reinvented" the shredder and claimed it as his own, or has a rip off been ripped off?
[/quote]

I say that the Steinmeyer created - Smith built "Audience Acupuncture" is sufficiently different from Lake's "Shredder" to stand on it's own.

The props shown on the YouTube videos are definitely rip-offs of "Audience Acupuncture".

I'm hoping Bill weighs in on this previous post.

Terry

[quote]
On 2007-12-30 14:24, BYUDAD wrote:
Who cares, Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares,Who cares!
[/quote]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Terry
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Dec 30, 2007 01:47PM)
BYUDAD... Are you kidding me? Who cares? I’ll tell ya! All of us that purchase authentic illusions for their deceptiveness and quality brothaaa. Have you ever purchased an intellectual piece? Rip of illusions do nothing but harm all of the professionals working today.

Food for thought… Imagine spending $10,000 on a quality, deceptive and original prop and then have some unethical builder rip it off and poorly build it for $4,000. The hack builder then turns around and sells it to someone in your market! This person then showcases with this horrible piece of crap in front of the same buyers you’re trying to sell your show to. Not only is it poorly performed but he gives away the method to the mass because of the hack job. Would you have a problem with it then? Hmmm..

Are you a working professional? If you were you would not have commented like this. I’m learning everyday in this bizzzz. I’ll be the first to say I have made a few mistakes when I first started out. Gotta nipp it in the bud sometime right? The main problem is people that say " who cares?! ". We ALL should care. If we did, the hack builders would never sell ANYTHING! Right?? I donno.. Just my thoughts on the situation and personal experience.

Take care buddy! :0)

Wadini
Message: Posted by: Caveat Lector (Dec 30, 2007 03:19PM)
Hey Wade,
Don't sweat this BYUDAD guy too much,those type of people just try to get you going. "REAL" workers know the difference and do the right thing.

John
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Dec 30, 2007 04:08PM)
I know... I think it's funny though. The Café..... Danggggg!
Message: Posted by: Christopher Starr (Dec 30, 2007 04:30PM)
Nice looking prop Wade! Congrats on your purchase.

Chris
Message: Posted by: Thomas Wayne (Dec 30, 2007 06:09PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-30 09:48, Terry Holley wrote:
Now I see why this trio had such a hard time performing a knock-off of "Audience Dis-member."

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5ynAbBOZQSI

[...]
[/quote]

What I found really amusing is that whoever built the knock-off apparently missed one of the most important convincers that the genuine prop has to offer. Funny, funny, funny.

TW
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Dec 30, 2007 06:58PM)
[quote]
I say that the Steinmeyer created - Smith built "Audience Acupuncture" is sufficiently different from Lake's "Shredder" to stand on it's own.
[/quote]

I totally disagree on this one, this is a reapplication of the same effect and most of the original method.
Had the Lake model been a current illusion in the regular performances of magicians most of us would cry foul.
I believe we are cutting undue slack because of the names involved.
Message: Posted by: Magic Patrick (Dec 30, 2007 08:26PM)
Let me say it better this time. Just count on the Café about the post about rip offs. There is even one about snap illsions and they even said that they changed it enough to make it theirs. There was a big discussion about this and nothing came about with it. So keep fighting the good fight and you know what in the end it will still be the same outcome "the walmart theory" people will sacrifice quality to have something.

You are right I haven't spent 10,000 on a prop. I have only spent 4000 on a konundrum kube and never buy knock offs. If I am worrying about my competition then I must not be that good. After all, isn't the secret in the peformance? I mean anyone can do a trick, not everyone can perform a trick. I use the zig zag sometimes and people always say that they knew the trick but were entertained by my performance.

I know a few of the hardest working and busiest performers in the industry and they are even too busy to chat on the Café. The real pros if you will. When was the last time you saw a post from the big time pros on the Café? I am pretty sure it is less than 435 posts.

Why talk so much about rip offs? Will it stop them? If they are in your market it will make you looks that much better than them.

Keep your standards please BROTHAAA but lets talk about magic here on the Café.

BYUDAD

Posted: Dec 30, 2007 9:39pm
Do you know what we should really be worried about is people ripping off performances. Do you know how many people have done the rising card trick that is very similar to David Copperfield? They change it just a little to make it theirs. Now what type of message is someone sending if they don't buy rip offs (a good thing) but steal someones performance ideas (very bad thing). Now that is a little hypocritical to me. What do you think about that Wade?

BYUDAD (don't sweat me though)
Message: Posted by: The Drake (Dec 30, 2007 08:48PM)
BYUDAD is not endorsing ripoffs. He has made several posts against them. He is merely trying to say that our ranting can't stop them. The ripoff builders are still building and selling to those who will buy them.

There is another side to the coin however and that is that although its not pleasant and is often tiresome to go on about ripoffs... to ignore them and let them become "acceptable" in the magic world would be a worse option. Where would our next generation of magicians be if they grew up in a world where knockoffs were OK. Ignoring them will only give others the impression that they are ok.

I won't mention names but I know several young Café members who started off in magic with knockoffs and learned via others rants that its the wrong thing to do. ( how else will they learn otherwise if not from their fellow magi ) I still hear from some of them how they really want this or that but will wait until they can get the legit version.

Now THAT is a victory for magic indeed. I my opinion anyway.

A war is won..one battle at a time.

Best,

Tim
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Dec 30, 2007 09:24PM)
But Tim, our converts are a few sheep amongst the wolves.

Young performers today (I would say a majority) feel that what they see and are exposed to on the web, is theirs to take (steal!)and freely use. You must also remember this is a generation that does not like to read, and in actual fact, do not even know how to use the tools they have at their disposal ie. the web, to truly educate themselves about the ethics of, the history of, the performance of...magic!


The core beliefs of a whole generation are in question. I know that seems heavy,
but why do you think movie production companies, music companies are having to fight for their lives. Whether you or I want to debate obscene profits etc. young people think whatever they can access, and copy, can be theirs! It belongs to them and they have the RIGHT to use it.

I see this every day with young performers, and from the young people I am exposed to. (Remember I have 3 at home 20, 22 and 23) For every one we save (!!!) there are a hundred more ripping off others. A good point above was the comment about performances being ripped off. We are only able to identify props that are being lifted. Trust me the ripping off of material is FAR worse and extensive!!!!

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 30, 2007 10:06PM)
I see a constant de-valuing(sp?) of everything in our society. Everything from Wal-mart to McDonalds adds to this trend. Quality has gone out the door (not just in products but in service as well). How can you convince somebody of the importance of quality and ethics when they won't bat an eye to download a song for free? It's not just the young. I know other artists who don't see a problem with it. How can you win when even musicians are taking away from other musicians?

It's a battle that I believe we will lose for the most part (in the numbers game anyway). We can only hope to provide a guideline for others to follow. Whether or not they chose to do so, is entirely a personal choice.

The positive side to this though, is that I've seen many performers step up their performances. The secrets hold very little value and in turn have forced a focus on the ART of magic instead of the mechanics of magic. The true secret is the value still created in artistic entertainment.
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Dec 30, 2007 10:11PM)
Good post, I have noticed that many are concentrating on their performance and style, but their is still the issue of the material they are using (borrowing!)

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Dec 30, 2007 10:37PM)
BYUDAD,

I might have taken your above post the wrong way after reading a few replys you have made in the past. The who cares who cares comment caught my attention.... My bad DAWWGGG!

- Wade
P.S Have you ever asked them if they have permission to perform it that way? Maybe they have been granted permission?? Hmmm... I donno? :0)
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 30, 2007 10:46PM)
Borrowing material is a tricky "grey" area sometimes. Once again though, following a basic guideline of ethics (as we do here on the Café by such discussions), will hopefully allow us to be as original and/or ethical as possible. Within our magic community, we applaud those who excel at this. The fact of the matter though is that we are left with the problem of one's personal choice (darn that freedom!).

Also as Wade pointed out , one can't always know the full story so maybe we should focus on using words in our opinions such as "we assume" "it seems" and the like.
Message: Posted by: Gary Yin (Dec 30, 2007 10:48PM)
Made in China?
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 30, 2007 11:20PM)
Is there a recall? (sorry couldn't resist)
Message: Posted by: adam christopher (Dec 31, 2007 06:30AM)
Is it just me, or wasn't there still theft back in the day....read an Illusion Builder to Fu Manchu about how he ripped off the Nicola, Raymond, & Dante Shows.....and the old stories of Houdini vs. Kellar and Thurston...just my .02....AC
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 31, 2007 10:15AM)
And your point Adam? Back in the day, people did a lot of things we no longer do and for good reason.
Message: Posted by: adam christopher (Dec 31, 2007 10:40AM)
My point is that if lying, thieving and general treachery were acceptable amongst the masters of our artform why is it unacceptable today? MY response was actually in response to Blair's response to the young generation being illiterate you-tube addicted copycats who could read and learn from the past masters of the art...who just happened to lie, cheat and steal from each other...food for thought!

AC
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 31, 2007 10:59AM)
Learn from them their dedication to the art, but also learn to not make the same mistakes.
Message: Posted by: adam christopher (Dec 31, 2007 11:09AM)
Alas the Rub a man with a plunger on his head saying that worked for Houdini, Thurston et al is not appropriate for today......come on now! This whole ethics in Illusions has only existed since David Copperfield...before it was fair game...but don't let me stand in the way of progress!
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Dec 31, 2007 11:20AM)
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! That hurts!!

Me thinks Adam has zinged two of us, the "old" guy, and the one with the "plunger on his head"!!!!! LOL

Come on Adam I didn't make it sound THAT bad (did I??)

It would seem that you have read some about magic, but how many others have? I talk to other young performers and they have no knowledge of clubs, magazines (actually ones about magic!), or books. Their knowledge is internet based. ie. subject focussed through a search engine. It is not "true" research or a learning experience. It is quick and easy fix to find out how it's done, and then lift/borrow/steal!

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: Caveat Lector (Dec 31, 2007 12:13PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-30 21:26, BYUDAD wrote:
I know a few of the hardest working and busiest performers in the industry and they are even too busy to chat on the Café. The real pros if you will. When was the last time you saw a post from the big time pros on the Café? I am pretty sure it is less than 435 posts.

BYUDAD
[/quote]

As do I, and I have the pleasure of being very close friends with many "big time pros." I do not claim to be a "big time pro" nor do I care to be, I am interested in success not fame. But, I am a professional entertainer, and my credentials speak for themselves. So, for you to make a comment about me not being a pro is just argumentative and unfounded. I like the Café and I make time for it when I can.

John
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 31, 2007 12:41PM)
So what wrong with progress Adam? LOL Did you even read my post? You can learn both what to do and what not to do from the same person. Ask your parents. And hey, leave the plunger out of this! LOL
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Dec 31, 2007 03:26PM)
I think the plunger on the head could be a good magic sight gag!!!


Oooooops! That's already been done!

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Dec 31, 2007 04:46PM)
Adam, the reason for my post was to say that ripping off is not okay not even by the big names, then or now.
Jim Steinmeyer, and Bill Smith are big names in the industry today.
I feel what Steinmeyer "invented" was not original, and Bill Smith should not have produced it.
Basically they did what most of us here on the Café speak out against, only this time it didn't come from the "low cost" market.
Message: Posted by: adam christopher (Dec 31, 2007 05:35PM)
My whole point is not to attack other Magi, but to defend the young-ish Magi....without these young whipper-snappers who're coming up there won't be a tomorrow in Magic...teach them the way, don't criticize them for trying to learn!!! I was luckily blessed with the ability to apprentice with a great man, who himself had apprenticed with Bill Neff...if it had not been for that I too would be a clueless youtuber...the truth is that there are only so many different concepts in Magic, and that everything new is truly something that was once very old, it just had some new greasepaint, sequins, and flashy lights tossed on it...an appearance is an appearance, a levitation is a levitation, etc.....are there new wrappings on them yes..but a box is a box, a table is a table, it's all about entertainment in the audiences eyes, and that is something that Bill Smith and Jim Steinmeyer don't have a patent on!!!!!

BTW, in all honesty I do believe that Jim Steinmeyer is an incredible mind.. just look at what he's done over on the big eared show now travelling the world...but even Jim Probably annoyed the hell out of someone to start with, maybe even pinched an idea or two!

MY .02

AC
Message: Posted by: Bill Nuvo (Dec 31, 2007 11:19PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-31 16:26, Blair Marshall wrote:
I think the plunger on the head could be a good magic sight gag!!!


Oooooops! That's already been done!

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
[/quote]

I take full credit for this idea. Everybody else just took it from me! LOL Interesting enough though, it did come out almost intuitively. When I was young I had that Sorcerer's Apprentice hat with the plunger. As I lost my hair at young age I figured what the heck, I don't need the elastic strap to hold it on. Then the ring toss idea just came with goofing around. Plungers are naturally funny for some reason. Maybe it's because of what they are associated with, a faux pas that people really don't talk about but that everybody knows about. Plungers have been used in comedy since their widespread use. They have been used as swords, stuck on faces, used in cartoons, juggled and more. I definitely don't total originality with it though.
Message: Posted by: abercrombe (Jan 2, 2008 09:21PM)
[quote]
On 2007-12-31 12:20, Blair Marshall wrote
It would seem that you have read some about magic, but how many others have? I talk to other young performers and they have no knowledge of clubs, magazines (actually ones about magic!), or books. Their knowledge is internet based. ie. subject focussed through a search engine. It is not "true" research or a learning experience. It is quick and easy fix to find out how it's done, and then lift/borrow/steal!

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
[/quote]


You are absolutely right that they don't read, when they do they complain about the lack of illusstrations. They know about all the so called new hot stuff but can't tell you who invented the chop cup,dove pan, milk picther, Zig Zag and on and on. It is up to us to educate the new to magic on history and good ethics and more. BTW I saw a gentleman performing the Zombie and when he finished he asked what I thought. I told him he should find a new way to perform it because he did Tim Wrights Zombie routine verbatim and badly. He said Tim who? I said Skilldini and he said, Oh yeah. Not only do they not know history, they believe no-one else does either. If we give up, then magic is doomed to obscurity.
Cheers
Al
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Jan 11, 2008 07:52PM)
I did some work on my authentic audience acupuncture... I felt it was very boring to look at so this is what I came up with. It's like DUHHH their SHARP!

http://wadelive.com/spikes.JPG

I have to say this thing is SUPER deceptive from only a few feet away... 5 stars in my book! Thank you Bill Smith... :0)

- Wade
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 11, 2008 08:32PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-11 20:52, Wade Live wrote:
I did some work on my authentic audience acupuncture... I felt it was very boring to look at so this is what I came up with. It's like DUHHH their SHARP!

http://wadelive.com/spikes.JPG

I have to say this thing is SUPER deceptive from only a few feet away... 5 stars in my book! Thank you Bill Smith... :0)

- Wade
[/quote]

Two words. "OUCH" and "beautiful"!

Reminds me of the time I laid down under the spikes on Andre' Kole's "Table of Death."

Terry
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Jan 11, 2008 08:48PM)
Heres a few more... :0)


http://wadelive.com/spikes1.JPG
http://wadelive.com/spikes2.JPG
http://wadelive.com/spikes3.JPG
http://wadelive.com/spikes4.JPG
http://wadelive.com/spikes5.JPG
Message: Posted by: adam christopher (Jan 11, 2008 09:15PM)
Rock on Wade!!!!!!!! All I've gotta say is ouch!

~AC
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 11, 2008 10:10PM)
Question Wade, may I ask what you paid for this?
Also have you ever looked at a Lester Lake shredder?
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Jan 11, 2008 10:49PM)
It was about 7k with the ata.... I think I saw a photo of the shredder last year somewhere. I cant remember where though... The spikes come from above right?

Wade
Message: Posted by: Chezaday (Jan 12, 2008 01:56AM)
My guess is that Wade doesn't have a girlfriend. Maybe you should grab a pillow, a blanket and sleep on top of your new prop.

I'm one to talk .. my Origami Box was looking kind of lonely last night in my living room.

Steve
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Jan 12, 2008 01:59AM)
Hey now! At least I have 18 holes to choose from..... :0)
Message: Posted by: adam christopher (Jan 12, 2008 06:33AM)
Leave it to Chez to bring this down the proverbial rabbit hole(s)!
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 12, 2008 08:07AM)
If you go to the link below,you should be able to view a photo of a Lester Lake Shredder that is no longer for sale on eBay. You can then see the difference between the two illusions.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lester-Lake-SHREDDER-Steel-spikes-thru-girl_W0QQitemZ330190029663QQihZ014QQcategoryZ86940QQcmdZViewItem

Terry
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Jan 12, 2008 10:48AM)
Yeah... Not my style at all...
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Jan 12, 2008 10:57AM)
Maybe not, but there have been different styles of it.

Blair Marshsall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: Chezaday (Jan 12, 2008 11:02AM)
The old Shredder is pretty cool. I actually performed with an Abbott's Shredder as part of the Collector's Weekend in Chicago a few years back. The opening night show was called "Magic Old and Seldom Seen." We did a fun version of the old Shredder in the beginning of the show and later closed the show with Audience Acupuncture.

It was really neat to perform both versions for a crowd of magic enthusiasts. I think we even used the balloons in the first demonstration.

Steve

We can talk about falling in love with our props on another post .. actually that would be pretty funny!
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Jan 12, 2008 11:48AM)
U crack me up Steve...
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 12, 2008 12:22PM)
I still have a problem with Steinmeyer listing the Audience Acupuncture on his web site as one of his creations.
In truth Audience Acupuncture is a reengineering of a Shredder with some minor changes. I have yet to see any advertisement giving credit of the idea to Lester Lake.
When magicians talk so much about ethics on this site some seem to over look the big names in the discussions.
Audience Acupuncture is a fine illusion but give the real creator his due.
Message: Posted by: Chezaday (Jan 12, 2008 02:08PM)
You're overlooking one key element that has been added to Steinmeyer's illusion. You visually see the bed of spikes pass through the volunteer. The old Shredder does all it's work under cover and not nearly as effective.

Obviously the starting point was with Lester Lake's idea and redesigning the whole illusion.

I'm sure Jim will acknowledge Lester's original work.

Steve
Message: Posted by: M-Illusion (Jan 12, 2008 02:21PM)
While the original is still a great illusion, Jim has taken it a step further, as Steve pointed out. I don't think Jim is trying to "hide" the fact that he used Shredder as the basis for the illusion or rip off the original Lester Lake concept.
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 12, 2008 07:01PM)
So where is the acknowledgement?

Also Steve you do not see the spikes pass through the assistant the covering box is on top of the assistant the entire time.
Message: Posted by: Chezaday (Jan 12, 2008 07:50PM)
Ya got me there .. but, the old Shredder you see nothing but the handles move up and down. Then you see the spike under the table .. maybe protruding about an inch or so. It's very week .. I know, the audience didn't even see the spikes under the table.

With Jim's you see the action of the bed of spikes moving up and through your volunteer. Then the spike above .. much more effective, you can't miss them.

Steve
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 12, 2008 09:05PM)
The discussion is over the origin of the illusion, and it was not with Steinmeyer...
Also on the shredder the door was opened to show the spikes in position.
I freely admit the audience dismember from an effect point of view in an improvement over the original shredder.
The strong point of the shredder is it can be worked surrounded in full light, the audience didmember can't.
I would just like to see credit made to the originator.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 12, 2008 09:57PM)
[quote]
On 2008-01-12 22:05, 61magic wrote:
The discussion is over the origin of the illusion, and it was not with Steinmeyer...
Also on the shredder the door was opened to show the spikes in position.
I freely admit the audience dismember from an effect point of view in an improvement over the original shredder.
The strong point of the shredder is it can be worked surrounded in full light, the audience didmember can't.
I would just like to see credit made to the originator.
[/quote]

Lester Lake did not create "Audience Acupuncture." Jim Steinmeyer did and therefore the origin is with him. As I have already stated, it is sufficiently different in a number of ways to stand on it's own. Your last posts, as well as others', mention some of the differences.

You have intimated in your posts that "Audience Acupuncture" is a ripoff. It seems to me the logical conclusion of that thinking is that it should have never been created, and it appears from your previous statements that this is what you believe. I disagree.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Chezaday (Jan 13, 2008 02:25AM)
Ya can't make everyone happy .. and what ever we say here on the Café isn't going to satisfy 61magic. Your quick to tear down one of the greatest contributers to modern magic .. must be some reason.

I took a look at your profile .. and sure enough, there's nothing there. Why??

Don't you think we should change all that and require additional information here on the Café. Anyone can hide behind a stupid name .. but, you should be accountable for what you have to say here. What do you have to hide?? Unless of course your name is Val Valentino.

I'm getting tired of all these so called know-it-alls. Let's clean house here .. who's with me??

Steve
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 13, 2008 08:59AM)
Steve, listen.
I was just asking for credit to be givin where credit is due, and if the person does not do that than a rip off occured.
The reason I pointed out the issue with Steinmeyer is all the rip off talk that goes on here at the Café. People are very quick to point out the people they think are ripping off but defend the big names.

Nice of you to attack me personally.
Just adding a picture, a link to a web site and information that may or may not be correct does not make anyone an authority.
What I put or do not put into my profile is my business.
If you are offended with what I say don't read or post in my comments.
Oh also if you want to clean house we can start with the hair band rejects from the 80's... LOL
Message: Posted by: Jack Murray (Jan 13, 2008 09:05AM)
I'm with you Steve! I have been "slammed" here by those who hide behind an on-line name with only a very few posts. There should be accountability here.

Jack
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 13, 2008 09:21AM)
Jack, I see you do not post your picture, can I ask why?
I could add a picture, and bio information to my profile, would that make either of you change your view of my post? no, it wouldn't.
Members of the Café have been quick to slam builders and performers over rip offs but when a big name is introduced into the debate the attack moves to the poster.
I believe if someone borrows an idea and does not give credit for it they are no better than the rip off builders many here talk about.
When Rich Hill introduced Dismiddlement he gave credit to Paul Osborne.
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Jan 13, 2008 09:40AM)
When I saw A.A. I did first think it resembled a reverse Shredder. This does not make me think any less of Jim's work. If someone I was consulting with wanted to have an effect of this nature in their show, or a presentation, I would include both as potential candidates. One may, for the effect, or presentation being created, be more "effective" (not necessarily magically so). I do consider the Shredder as a precursor to A.A.

And as 61Magic indicates he is only asking that this historical link be recognised. I have tried to shut down some of the threads crying rip-off all the time, where there is an immediate cry with no proof or justification. But the question still is, and has been posted MANY times, when is an illusion/effect consider lifted/borrowed/stolen.

I do think 61Magic is asking a valid question/point.

Timothy has outlined what his thoughts are on this.

Here would be some of my questions regarding a "new" illusion/effect for me.

Is it end result? (ie. the girl vanishes?)
Is it the design of the equipment? (Shredder-a spike bed that moves?)
Is it the effect? (same style of presentation - Origami vs. Intruder Box)
Is it the presentation? (theme, costume, music, movement - a sawing for example)
Is it the method? (girl without a middle - Steinmeyer/Henning vs. Thayer vs. Reid)
`
What makes an illusion (I hate to use this word!!!) a rip-off. AND, I am not using it here, but if I was trying to devolpe an illusion with a spike bed that moved, I would ceertainly have had the Shredder plans close at hand.

As Paul Daniels has said, want to create a "new" effect.....make it bigger, change the shape, move the parts around.

So, can we say that Lester Lake provied the "inspiration" for A.A.?????


Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: Jack Murray (Jan 13, 2008 09:41AM)
61magic, my post wasn't directed at you but in general.
Many here have no pic. I just haven't posted one....no reason.
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Jan 13, 2008 09:43AM)
"So, can we say that Lester Lake provided the "inspiration" for A.A.?????"

Corrected the typo! B.M

Posted: Jan 13, 2008 10:45am
When is an illusion considered to have enough improvements/changes/modifications to be called a "new" illusion??

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 13, 2008 11:27AM)
Jack I think you see my point. Pictures, bio information is a personal choice, should you be run off the Café because you don't have a posted picture?
If someone is that interested into pictures and bios go to match.com and find someone there.
Message: Posted by: Chezaday (Jan 13, 2008 11:34AM)
Personal attack?? Hair band reject from the 80's?? Nice .. at least I have something to contribute here on the Café.

As far as I'm concerned you have no background in magic. Prove me wrong .. let's see your website, let's see something about you. All my info is readily available online .. you can even give me a call. Back up what your saying here .. what do you have to hide??

I've got nothing to hide .. except maybe a can of Aqua-Net according to you.

Steve
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 13, 2008 11:50AM)
Steve, all of us have something to contribute on the Café, we don't always agree but still have something to say.
We can agree to disagree.
I have nothing to hide and I have no need to prove anything to you.
If you don't like my messages don't read my posts. simple.
I won't attack you if you don't attack me. simple.
Message: Posted by: Wade Live (Jan 13, 2008 11:54AM)
LOL!! The Café is GREAT!!!! Urr suck a jerk Steve! Quit it!! LOL...
Message: Posted by: Blair Marshall (Jan 13, 2008 11:54AM)
Why don't we take the personal stuff off to PM's???

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Message: Posted by: The Mirror Images (Jan 13, 2008 02:34PM)
Wow I just see this has went the wrong way. Anywas back on topic.

Why match.com. IS that the only place you can get a date. j/k come one everyone I feel like I am in high school. again. The good old days.

Ok back on topic
Message: Posted by: Chezaday (Jan 15, 2008 01:45AM)
This obviously took a wrong turn and I'm not on her to attack others. I myself, am very passionate about the art of magic .. and things got out of hand. A simple note to my buddy 61magic and everything is cool.

I forgot what we were talking about in the first place??

Steve
Message: Posted by: Swann101 (Jan 15, 2008 06:25AM)
That was interresting ladies...
Blair I think a combination off all you mentioned could count as a "rip off" or even just one factor for example the complete copy of the design, or presentation. Like mentioned many times before on the Café there is a big grey area here. But at the end of the day everyone can spot a complete "rip off" and when it comes to a "semi rip off", (like intruder box in my opinion)it is hard to say what is right or wrong.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Starr (Jan 15, 2008 08:45AM)
[quote]I forgot what we were talking about in the first place?? [/quote]

I think it was AquaNet....? Maybe not. :P

Chris
Message: Posted by: 61magic (Jan 15, 2008 08:07PM)
Ladies??? Ouch...

I think we were talking about cut and restored rope???
Steve did dropped me a note, and yes everything is cool.

And for the record the only thing I've hid from the Café is the fact that I'm bald....