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Topic: Why are there so few female magicians?
Message: Posted by: todsky (Mar 6, 2008 07:35PM)
This is the big question in my mind. There are now women well represented in law, business, medicine, engineering, even in the army. So what is it about magic that seems to keep women away?

Could it be because women can create life from within their womb, and therefore making a bunny appear from a hat would be an anti-climax?
Could it be that women as healers have historically been persecuted as witches, so maybe there is a historical memory in women that does not wish to risk persecution again?

Any thoughts/theories appreciated.

Todd
Message: Posted by: Solitaire (Mar 11, 2008 06:29AM)
Now this is a very good question, I was wondering if there are more female stage magicians abroad, since there aren't that many in Germany (in fact, only one name of a fellow female magician comes to my mind).

I don't think a "historical memory" is the reason since a lot of women are interested in reiki, card readings, channeling, etc.

What about this one: most women are still wrapped up in doing daily chores such as taking care of children, full-time or part-time work, etc so they don't have the time or personal space for practicing stage magic?
Message: Posted by: todsky (Mar 11, 2008 08:36AM)
I don't think it has to do with the daily chores: there are many women who work in other areas of show business which require similar devotion to the craft, like acting and music. Maybe it's just that the Magician is an age-old male archetype.

What you say about women being interested in reiki, card-reading and channeling could be relevant, meaning that women prefer to put their 'magic' interest into the esoteric arts rather than in performance.

And there are very few working female magicians (stage or close-up) here in Canada. And I don't know a single one here in Montreal.
Message: Posted by: Margarette (Mar 11, 2008 09:04AM)
If you are wondering why there haven't been more responses to your question....this subject gets brought up every few months or so. I'd recommend you check around the Cafť for old threads on this.
Message: Posted by: todsky (Mar 11, 2008 09:11AM)
This is the only other thread on this topic I could find, but it's from 2002, and it's 'locked':

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=3850&forum=27
Message: Posted by: magicwatcher2005 (Mar 11, 2008 06:36PM)
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
Message: Posted by: todsky (Mar 11, 2008 07:23PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]

Can you say...provocateur?
Message: Posted by: Ms. Morgan (Mar 11, 2008 10:16PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]

Your kidding with this post, right? I mean, you have to be. That or you are attempting to display, just what it is about magic, and many of the men in it, that drives women away.

Ms.M
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Mar 12, 2008 01:49AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]



Magicwatcher2005ís profile says heís an ďElectonics [sic] designer.Ē Apparently Mr. Math canít even spell his own occupation.

Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. The magic fraternity still has a very archaic and misogynistic mindset. Even here at the Cafť, there are threads to discuss how to take advantage of women.

When will the magic fraternity become the magic community?


Holly
Message: Posted by: magicwatcher2005 (Mar 12, 2008 02:39AM)
Sorry I'm just talking about the girls I went to school with. You girls are probably smarter cuz your already into magic and stuff so that doesn't mean you.
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Mar 12, 2008 02:47AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0906931.html

Here youíll find a partial list of just a few things invented by women, including some which required mechanical skill such as the circular saw, dishwasher, electric hot water heater, elevated railway, engine muffler, locomotive chimney, paper bag making machine, rotary engine, street cleaning machine, submarine lamp and telescope, and windshield wipers.

Women also invented Kevlar, life rafts, fire escapes, and medical syringes, among many things.

Also; take into consideration this piece of information:

ďWe'll probably never know how many women inventors there were. That's because in the early years of the United States, a woman could not get a patent in her own name. A patent is considered a kind of property, and until the late 1800s laws forbade women in most states from owning property or entering into legal agreements in their own names. Instead, a woman's property would be in the name of her father or husband.

For example, many people believe that Sybilla Masters was the first American woman inventor. In 1712 she developed a new corn mill, but was denied a patent because she was a woman. Three years later the patent was filed successfully in her husband's name.Ē

Thereís a difference between what people are capable of and what they are given the opportunity to achieve.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Solitaire (Mar 12, 2008 04:59AM)
Todsky and Hollymental, you both raise some very good points there. What a pity that the other thread is locked, I would have loved to read more opinions on this topic.
When I was 9 years old, I got the measles and since I had to stay at home in bed, my mother brought me one of those magic kits with a few tricks in it. This raised my interest in magic, and I even did some performances in front of my schoolpals (until one of them found out how the "atomic vase" worked, and that spoiled my interest in magic, so I abandoned it for almost 30 years). At the age of 13 I turned to tarot cards, later discovered other divination means and the Old Path and last year, I met a magician who was my neighbour on a fair, we started talking about magic and magick and so my interest in magic was awakened again. I will ask him how many female students are in his classes of magic.
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Mar 12, 2008 09:40PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 23:16, Ms. Morgan wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]

Your kidding with this post, right? I mean, you have to be. That or you are attempting to display, just what it is about magic, and many of the men in it, that drives women away.

Ms.M
[/quote]

This is a hoot! My sister is a mathematician. (The one who solved the bridge building math problems that male engineers could not.) She also teaches college math.

Also, my daughter taught my son (three years older than her) algebra when he was in high school.

Research it a little bit and do your math. You should reach a different informed opinion.

My wife has her own magic stage act. But she is also a physician. Some can not only walk and chew gum, but do it very well.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
Message: Posted by: todsky (Mar 13, 2008 07:50AM)
Okay, all this attention given to magicwatcher's stupid comment, and almost none (except for Solitaire and Margarette) responding to the actual question in this thread: why are there so few female magicians?
Message: Posted by: Margarette (Mar 13, 2008 09:26AM)
Okay, I'll try to answer your question as to why there are so few female magicians. The main reason is plain and simple...that's just the way it is. It's the same reason as to why there aren't more male day care workers, male nurses, female auto mechanics, etc. It's just the way it is.

Throughout the ages, there has been the idea that certain jobs and tasks are male-dominated, and other jobs and tasks that are female-dominated. When both of my maternal grandparents were still alive (grandfather died back in 1988, and grandmother is currently battling Alzheimer's), my grandmother once told me that my grandfather couldn't cook anything...not even make a can of Campbell's soup. I asked her why, and her response to me was that it was her "job" to cook and clean for him, and that no man need know how to cook...that's what wives were for. That was what was accepted back when my grandmother was young...which she learned from her mother...and so on. The only thing my grandmother did as work for pay was to either take in other people's laundry or to sew and alter clothes. I think this was accepted as the way things were supposed to be until the Rosie the Riveter days....when women had to enter the work force in the male-dominated jobs because the men were overseas fighting a war. Granted, women have always been in the workforce, but for the longest time, "acceptable" jobs for women were limited to teacher, nurse, and secretary. Yes, there were the stand-outs who didn't go along with the norms...that happens everywhere and all the time, but they are the exception and not the rule. I was one of six women in my engineering school graduating class, and only one of two in my engineering discipline. Now, I'm finding out that there are more women going into the engineering program I went through.

Now, does all of this have a point? Yes, it does (if you can believe it). The "typical" role of women in magic for the longest time has been relegated to that of assistant or support (someone has to take care of the kids and laundry while the "magician" works on stuff!). Again, every rule has its exception, and there does happen to be the women who don't want to be limited to being part of the "support staff." There are more female magicians today than there were twenty years ago.

It also helps when there are POSITIVE role models and mentors. When girls have strong women they can look up to and emulate, the girls of today with their first magic kit will become the women of tomorrow with their own theaters and television specials. For the longest time, about the only female magician that people (non-magicians) knew was Melinda. Honestly, how many of us would like our daughters to be like her? With the entrance of more women into the role of magician, the more positive role models and influences there will be for the girls to look up to.

I have told these two stories numerous times to illustrate the difference in how women are accepted in both the magic community and in the construction industry (my engineering profession):

Scenario One: I was on vacation in Florida, spending time with relatives. I looked in the phone book and found that there was a magic store not too far from where my relatives lived. I ask if anyone wants to go with me, and all the kids in the house want to go, so I ask hubby if he will go with me to corrall the kids while I look at magic. He agrees. So, we go to the magic store. As we enter the store, I go directly over to the counter and look at what all is there. The kids begin looking at the novelty stuff and the costumes, and hubby stands in the middle of the store (not near any counter or shelf) so he can keep an eye on all the kids. Salesman turns around, sees me at the counter and him in the middle of the store...and DIRECTS HIS QUESTION TO THE MAN STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STORE...."Sir, can I help you?" To which, hubby responds, "You can't help me, but you may want to ask HER (he points to where I'm standing), because SHE is the magician in the family."

Scenario 2: Since construction is now rapidly proceeding on a project, I find it necessary to visit the jobsite weekly to monitor the progress of construction. I have to make sure that work is proceeding at the pace the subcontractors are saying, and need to address any problems that may arise. Since it is a jobsite, I dress appropriately...jeans, steel-toed boots, shirt I don't mind getting dirty, and of course, my hard hat. I get to the jobsite and meet up with the superintendent and sub-contractor's superintendents. I get up to speed on everything, and then begin to take pictures of the construction progress. One of the workers doesn't like that I'm taking pictures and begins to make comments directed toward me about how much it's going to cost for me to take his picture, and am I sure I have authorization to do this, etc. You can tell both superintendents are getting uncomfortable with this man's comments. Finally, another worker says, "dude, watch what you say...she approves our payroll requests! When she's out here, SHE'S the boss!"

Both of these did happen to me...all because I am a female in a non-typical female role. Do I get frustrated with it? Yes.

I am often reminded of what was said of Ginger Rogers. She had to be the better dancer because she had to do everythng Fred Astaire did BACKWARDS and in HIGH HEELS.

Okay, I'm stepping off my soapbox, now!

Margarette
Message: Posted by: Solitaire (Mar 13, 2008 10:09AM)
Especially Margarette's 2 scenarios point out that we women are still caught in the non-typical female role.

I can add another scenario: Today I contacted a German supplier for magic (I wanted to order Chelman's Capricornian tales there, hope he will manage to get them for me), the shop assistant addressed me in the email as "Mister", duh....
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Mar 13, 2008 12:27PM)
Most of you know I am a champion of women in magic. I have a 4 year old daughter and she is already showing a show biz personality!

I think it comes down to one issue - power.

The role of the magician is a powerful one. Sadly, most magicians give up this power for cheap laughs. Who, other than a geeky guy in his parent's basements aspires to that? Few, and even fewer women.

The second problem comes in the role of the "assistant." In my Magician's Assistant School Workshop I teach students that magic is power, and the magician a wielder of that power. The "assistant" is actually every bit a magician as her "magician" counterpart and hence is just as powerful. When I talk about this, I see lightbulbs going on all over the room, and the purpose and role of the "assistant" takes on a new importance and meaning. From that point on, they are referred to as performance partners.

The sad thing is that most magicians really treat their assistants as victims. They are the ones stuffed in boxes, skewered with swords, and in general the focus of abuse. No women wants to be abused. I do a sword basket and a sawing in half and I have really struggled with the concept of partner abuse. I've tried to make the routines about trust, and adversity, but in my mind, I am always aware of what it could be.

Third, there have been so few women who have been allowed to walk through the door and demonstrate their power the way men have. Angela Funovits was one of the best things to happen for women in magic. It proved that women can compete with men on an equal playing field, and win!

Gosh I have so much more to say about this - I could go on for days! Ladies, I want you to succeed and I am willing to do anything I can to help you do that!
Message: Posted by: jaynet (Mar 13, 2008 02:53PM)
Lets see...off the top of my head. Luna Shimada, Ariel Black, Melinda, Galina, Julianna Chen, Funovitz.
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Mar 13, 2008 03:42PM)
Great post Margarette!

I do think that the genders think differently about many things.
Most women I know are more about the business of life.
The guys I know, while still serious about the business of life, seem to care a lot more than women about entertaining themselves with thier toys and hobbies.

I've had many hobbies and my wife none.
It's not that she couldn't, just that she sees the way her time should be spent differently than I do.

Not sure if this makes much sense. :)

I'll just add this.
I work filling orders for contractors.
If I have a question about a product, there is only one person who I will ask because I know there's a answer. Her name is Sue.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Mar 13, 2008 06:49PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote:
Lets see...off the top of my head. Luna Shimada, Ariel Black, Melinda, Galina, Julianna Chen, Funovitz.
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.
[/quote]

And Angela Funovits was one of my students. Nobody said female magicians don't exist. The question is why aren't there more? In comparison there are very, very few female magicians in comparison to men.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Mar 14, 2008 02:49AM)
Well, magicwatcher gave the definitive answer. The reason there aren't a societally proportionate number of women in magic is absolutely... the men in magic. Men who suggest for a lady magician to compete she should hike up her dress. Men who think women just don't have the skills set.
Message: Posted by: Magical Lady (Mar 14, 2008 11:56AM)
Magicwater - to many of the ladies reading your post this will, at the very least, seem like a very outdated point of view - if not also an entirely chauvinistic one!

Having said that, I'm more than sure that you're not the only one who thinks that way. :)

If such stereotyping can be halted, perhaps the numbers of women both in magic and in mentalism, would increase further.

(surprisingly enough, we women don't all stay home barefoot and pregnant, baking cookies - well at least not EVERY day!!) ;)

Best,
ML
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Mar 14, 2008 12:51PM)
Most magicians are not sincere. They simply repeat otherīs ideas by repeating their lines and copying their outside mannerisms.

The reason why there are more succesful male magicians is because it is easier for them to get away with this copycatism than it is for women.

A sincere, authentic woman will change all this.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Mar 14, 2008 03:31PM)
Personally I love women and magic so if I get to see a female magician it's a double bonus!
Margarette,
I think your post is spot on, as are all the posts I've read of yours!

Mick
Message: Posted by: todsky (Mar 14, 2008 09:36PM)
Thanks for that great post, Margarette. Working in not one but two male-dominated professions certainly gives you a unique take on this issue. You could probably write an interesting book about it.

Daddy Cool, I really like your idea of assistant as performance partner. And I'm also tired (and find it quite a cliche) that female assistants are subjected to all manner of torture illusions, which I would call Magic as Misogyny.

Jaynet, of all the magical entertainers now and in history, there probably aren't more than 2% that are women. And those 2% aren't well known outside of the magic community: almost no layperson I know has ever seen or heard of a female magician.

Jaz, It seems true that guys tend to like toys and gizmos more than women do. Interesting observation.

Alex, there are not just more successful male magicians, but more male magicians, period. But what you say about authenticity rings true, and women are in a position to bring, and have brought, something fresh and unique to magic.

Oh, I'm just tired of going to magic lectures and auctions and being confined to the old boys club. Hooray for the Feminine Mystique!
Message: Posted by: poofersmagic (Mar 16, 2008 05:45PM)
Marguerite hit the nail on the head. I also applaud BDC for his support for us.

I am a magician and magical partner. I perform some of the magic in our shows as well as doing the business side.

I like to believe that being a woman in magic will help empower all the young ladies that I meet doing the shows and the ones I teach in our SYM that they too, can do magic. Not just the guys.

If anyone would like a copy of my 2 articles I have written, Being a magical Partner and Empowering young people, feel free to email me, and I would be happy to share them with you.

Kelly
Message: Posted by: mattmccoy (Mar 17, 2008 11:54AM)
I am actually trained by a top-notch female magician. I always thought it was hard taking advice from men because they want you to do things their way. She was definatly more advising and mother in her advise, but still assertive with her answers so she wasn't "babying" me. We talked for a while why more women do not do magic. Most men or laymen audiences want to watch women on stage who are appealing, sex does sell. Women do not want to be put in that category. And a lot of male magicians discourage them because;

1.) More competition.
2.) They are exotic in their own way(There are less women than men.)
3.) Men want to be successful
4.) history

Not too much meat to the answer, but enough to ponder.

-Matt
Message: Posted by: Solitaire (Mar 18, 2008 07:26AM)
@Matt

hey, we women can also be:

1) competitive
2) exotic
3) ambitious / successful

:) :) :)
Message: Posted by: Moxahalla (Mar 24, 2008 06:53PM)
My theory has always been this:

During pre-teen/early teens (when the 'magic bug' usually bites)...the LAST thing a girl wants to do - is to fool GUYS and end up being alienated by them.

What guy at that age, wants to be fooled by a girl? She sure won't win any popularity contests with the boys, that's for sure.

Don't mess with a young male teen's ego...girls know this.
Message: Posted by: Margarette (Mar 24, 2008 08:06PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-24 19:53, Moxahalla wrote:
During pre-teen/early teens (when the 'magic bug' usually bites)...the LAST thing a girl wants to do - is to fool GUYS and end up being alienated by them.
[/quote]

That actually makes a lot of sense. I can remember being told in high school (okay, a little bit past the pre-/early-teen years) that I shouldn't take quite so much advanced math and science because boys didn't like girls that were too smart. Must be why I never had any dates in high school....which was fine with me, I used the extra time studying my physics, chemistry and analysis. Yeah, deep down, I'm really a nerd!

Margarette
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Mar 25, 2008 02:32PM)
Margarette,

You know Lucy. I told her that I was a sucker for smart women. She said I didn't have a choice. They were all smarter!

Is she telling me the truth?

Bob

PS --- We look forward to seeing you this week at the Cavalcade of Magic in Eureka Springs. Do the folks here know that they have an all female show planned?
Message: Posted by: Lady D (Mar 25, 2008 02:45PM)
That sounds wonderful. Can anybody come?
Message: Posted by: Margarette (Mar 25, 2008 09:49PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-25 15:32, Bob Sanders wrote:
--- We look forward to seeing you this week at the Cavalcade of Magic in Eureka Springs. Do the folks here know that they have an all female show planned?
[/quote]

I think I dropped the ball on that one. Bill and Ruth are great about highlighting the younger talent and the female talent. For anyone who may not have plans this weekend, and are close to Eureka Springs, AR, Bill and Ruth Pitts are having their Cavalcade of Magic. I think registration is available at the door. I've always pre-registered. The one thing I like about the Magi-Gals show is the diverse talent that performs. I remember that one year, Lucy and I were the only ones performing, and she had her linking rings, and I had my handcuffs!

Margarette
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Mar 25, 2008 10:28PM)
Addition information about the 37th Cavalcade of Magic

Dates: March 27-29, 2008 (Nite-Before gathering Thursday 27th - Dealers setting up)

Place: Inn of the Ozarks, Eureka Springs, Arkansas

Room rates: $61.00 Double or single
Room Reservations: 1-800-552-3785

Registration: $75 for magician's whole family

Contact: Bill & Ruth Pitts (BandRPitts@aol.com)

This is one I never miss if there is a choice at all. You never know who you will see just walk in to this one. It's always an adventure.

I hope I get to see you there.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Mar 26, 2008 10:16AM)
Wish I wasn't swamped this week - that convention sounds like a lot of fun!
Message: Posted by: clarissa35f (Apr 26, 2008 06:54AM)
I think one of the reasons there are fewer female magicians than males now, is the same one there were fewer female doctors than males 20 or 30 years ago. That is changing for both professions.

In My mind it has to do with the " traditional" female role in the magic act. She was the assistant. Just as 20 or 30 years ago, there were females in medecine, they were nurses. Back then even if a female got into med school, and graduated with Honors and found a way to get into a Hospital, When she went in to see the patient they would normally call her " Nurse"

Same here I think, since the traditional role for the female has always been as an assistant, Many people the moment they see her think " Assistant". If a female magician is on stage with a male assistant it is sad, that unless the spotlight is directed at her, and she cues the audience with the fact that SHE is the star, all things being equal, the average audience will look to the assistant for the magic.

Similar to the poster above who said that the sales person looked at her Husband and asked HIM if he could help HIM.

I don't know how to fight this. But I think just as today, we see female doctors and no longer think " nurse" a day will come when we see a female magician and will think " magician." Part may have to do with how we dress on stage, we need to avoid the half undressed thing..and Autumn Morningstar has done an excellent job of that. When I saw her video, I did not think " Assistant." By The way " You go Girl!!!" Awesome trailer.
Message: Posted by: Mary Jane (May 28, 2008 02:57AM)
This topic has been a really popular one in a lot of magic chat rooms. Theory 11 have limited repetitious threads on this question.

Another reason they suggest is - girls are more likely to be doing piano, ballet lessons etc etc. at a young age. Boys though they have the usual sport clubs, probably can find magic clubs easier if they are interested. I'm personally gutted that as a kid I didn't get to find the Demon Club at London Davenports. I would have dearly swopped for that instead of the ballet lessons (sorry mum).

But are the number of female magicians growing? I know the number of females interested in Cardistry appears to be up judging by the growing amount of female subscribers to Theory 11.
Message: Posted by: mark2004 (May 28, 2008 06:21AM)
[quote]
On 2008-05-28 03:57, Mary Jane wrote:
Another reason they suggest is - girls are more likely to be doing piano, ballet lessons etc etc. at a young age. Boys though they have the usual sport clubs, probably can find magic clubs easier if they are interested.
[/quote]

I'm not convinced by that argument. If it's true that girls do things like ballet and piano while boys do sports then it seems to me that girls would be getting an early introduction to performing arts while boys would be getting steered towards something else. Actually I think the patterns of social development are much more complicated and varied than that.

I think historically there has been a shortage of positive role models for girls in magic. That's changing a bit thanks to some of the great female magicians working today, but the effect of gaining some positive role models might take time to have its true impact.

I also think there is plenty of evidence that magic has been a very male dominated profession. I know there are male magicians who've taken a friendly and encouraging approach to women performers (and I'm sure the majority here try to belong to that group), however there are plenty of accounts of men displaying stubbornly chauvanistic attitudes.

Perhaps there's also been another discouraging effect resulting from reactions to women who've catered to the continuing market for "traditional" styles - ie. the spangly leotards and so on. If a woman finds this sort of show is a good source of work and if she personally is happy with the role then she ought to be free to make that choice. Unfortunately I've heard accounts of female performers doing this kind of work (a couple in Vegas shows and several working as !@#istants in shows around the world) who've received nasty reactions from other women. The result must surely be that women who could later go on to be big name performers in their own right (quite possibly doing different styles of show) are being discouraged just at a crucial point when they're getting paying jobs.
Message: Posted by: clarissa35f (May 28, 2008 07:33PM)
Hmmm Interesting point about How some female magicians dress. But then it begs the question. At what point does the magician get to decide how she wishes to perform? If she wants to perform nude, and can find a paying gig, if that is the character she has developed and can find someone to pay her...why not? No one seems to complain what a male magician wears on stage. Why is that? The male magician is not asked to dress in a way that others would be accepting...or reminded that he is a role model to other male magicians. Why should other females get to veto what a female magician wears when men do not veto what a male magician wears?

On the other hand what example does that set for other girls wishing to get into magic? Does she have any responsibility to even set an example? On the one hand one would say she is just reinforcing the stereotype of a females place on the stage...to be pretty and sexy.

On the other if this is her desire, you can say she is exercising her rights to perform as she wishes. Is it pandering to the wishes of the male majority? or is it self empowerment? Who says the ONLY way to empower yourself as a female magician is to perform in a suit tie, and full set of pants? What is wrong with the top hat, bustierre, garter belt and stockings? (ie. Zatanna look her up.. DC Comics FTW!!!)

I think we as magicians should welcome any magician regardless of the character they present. I think that self expression means that the magician decides how she wishes to perform.

I have to admit I have changed my mind recently... I used to be one of those women that felt that a sexy body, and female empowerment were incompatible in magic. I Now realize that since magic IS an art, that How a person expresses it is as personal as what they perform.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 31, 2008 11:03AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-12 02:49, HollyMental wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]



Magicwatcher2005ís profile says heís an ďElectonics [sic] designer.Ē Apparently Mr. Math canít even spell his own occupation.

Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. The magic fraternity still has a very archaic and misogynistic mindset. Even here at the Cafť, there are threads to discuss how to take advantage of women.

When will the magic fraternity become the magic community?


Holly
[/quote]

You are taking the comment of one idiot as representative of the majority of us.

Shame on you.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 31, 2008 11:44AM)
The Linking Ring has been running a series for the past several months about women in magic. Some of these are historical figures, others figures of the present. This, in itself, shows a desire at least from the editors who have overseen the project to give magicians a different view of who is who in magic.

The IBM, SAM and the Magic Circle of London have all eliminated any kind of anti-feminine statements from any of their documents. Female performers have been presidents of both IBM and SAM. The Magic Circle has only been allowing female members for a couple of decades, so it will probably take longer for them; however, some of their officers are female, so it's working.

Any performer, regardless of race, color, creed or "gender,"* can succeed in magic. It requires drive, practice and thought. It requires a good act. It requires dedication. It requires coaching, preferrably from someone who has actually earned her/his living from magic. If you feel that you have been turned down for a job because of any accident of birth, but you haven't put in the time to develop these necessary skills, then you really have no complaint at all.

No customer or booking agent is required to take you on unless they feel that you can fulfil their requirements.

*gender is a linguistic term that has been hijacked by people who want to stir up trouble. It applies to whether a noun is masculine, feminine or neuter. If it had anything to do with the actual sex of a person or object, then das Weib, which is German for the woman, would not be neuter.
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (May 31, 2008 02:17PM)
[quote]
On 2008-05-31 12:03, Bill Palmer wrote:

You are taking the comment of one idiot as representative of the majority of us.

Shame on you.
[/quote]

Once again, here we have a man telling a woman about what an illusion discrimination against women is.

In my experience, that one idiot DOES represent the majority of males.

Then you go on to post the following:

[quote]
On 2008-05-31 12:44, Bill Palmer wrote:
The IBM, SAM and the Magic Circle of London have all eliminated any kind of anti-feminine statements from any of their documents.

The Magic Circle has only been allowing female members for a couple of decades, so it will probably take longer for them; however, some of their officers are female, so it's working.
[/quote]

Why are these changes being made, Bill? Huh? Because there IS discrimination. It may be diminishing slowly on a legal basis but itís still very much alive in the attitudes of MANY male magicians.

Right here at the Cafť, there are entire threads dedicated to discussing how to use magic or mentalism to take advantage of a woman; to pick a woman up or get her into bed or some other nonsense.

Itís the predominant ATTITUDE, Bill. YOU ought to be ashamed. The above poster made the statement he made but your problem is with me? YOU ought to be ashamed that you remain quiet and passive when such statements are made but are so willing to speak out against a woman who doesnít appreciate that type of discriminatory attitude.

[quote]
On 2008-05-31 12:44, Bill Palmer wrote:
Any performer, regardless of race, color, creed or "gender,"* can succeed in magic. It requires drive, practice and thought. It requires a good act. It requires dedication.
[/quote]

Yes a person can overcome obstacles. But thereís a difference between obstacles placed there by happenstance and obstacles deliberately placed in someoneís path because they are discriminating against you for whatever nonsense.

Maybe someday youíll desire to be part of something and the predominant organizations in the field will tell you that you canít be a member or that you shouldnít be doing that or that youíre not smart enough to do it - just because of your gender - or perhaps your color, or some other nonsense.

Iím not an international star or anything but Iíve experienced a level of success in life that a lot of people would like to have. Iíve done just about everything I ever wanted to do in life. I havenít experienced the level of success in everything that I would like to but thereís still time. Iím not done yet. But any failures on my part most certainly were NOT the result of laziness or lack of dedication and quite frankly Iím sick of people like YOU automatically assuming someone is lazy just because they arenít as successful as theyíd like to be. Some of us never stop aspiring to more and never stop pushing ourselves to improve.

A discriminatory attitude against women is still prevalent among males on this planet. You can ignore it if you want. You have that luxury. I do not.


Holly
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (May 31, 2008 04:45PM)
I wanted to clarify some of my comments above.

I never called MagicWatcher an idiot. Bill Palmer did. I said his comments were boneheaded and sadly represented the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. My responding comment to Bill about ďthat one idiotĒ was riding off Billís comment in which he referred to him as an idiot. I do not think MagicWatcher is an idiot. I think he made a very silly and misinformed statement.

After my initial response to MagicWatcher, he made the following comment:

[quote]
On 2008-03-12 03:39, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
Sorry I'm just talking about the girls I went to school with. You girls are probably smarter cuz your already into magic and stuff so that doesn't mean you.
[/quote]

Obviously, MagicWatcher is very young. But I do want to point out that his attitude is the attitude of a young person TODAY - right here in the modern age. This is a reflection of the persistent attitude that women are somehow less than men. Itís not from the 1800s as it might sound. Itís here TODAY.

The discriminatory attitude of the magic fraternity is reflected in the very name of the fraternity. The Brotherhood. And yes, I find that hurtful. It has always carried with it an air or ďyouíre not welcomeĒ with it. Itís also hurtful to read the threads here at the Cafť that demean women.

Yes, things are much better than they used to be. But misogynistic attitudes are far from vanished from the fraternity. Itís hurtful when people like Bill brush off misogyny like itís not a big deal; like Iím just some silly girl making a big deal out of nothing. His attitude is precisely the attitude which enables people like MagicWatcher to think the way they do. People like MagicWatcher seldom have to worry about any backlash from other men who would defend women. In most cases, they take the stance Bill does; that women are making a big deal out of nothing.

I just wanted to clarify my thoughts regarding this matter and now Iím done with it.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 31, 2008 07:22PM)
Holly:

The fact is that since such discriminatory statements have been eliminated, it means that officially discrimination in the organizations is a thing of the past.

It's not there any more.

Finished.

Gone.

Done with.

I want you to point out any specific instance of misogyny in ANY piece of literature published by the IBM, the SAM or the Magic Circle since the official changes took place, that are not related to personality conflicts that are based on other problems.

You can't do it.

If I make a statement about the ability of any magician, male, or otherwise, I guarantee you it's based on that person's actual skills and not on anything else.

Give me one instance where you haven't gotten a job or where you have been mistreated due to some kind of misogyny practiced by any of the groups I have mentioned.
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (May 31, 2008 08:49PM)
[quote]
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:
Holly:

The fact is that since such discriminatory statements have been eliminated, it means that officially discrimination in the organizations is a thing of the past.

It's not there any more.

Finished.

Gone.

Done with.
[/quote]

Why were they there to begin with Bill? Because of the ATTITUDES of the men in magic. All those attitudes didnít just change because some organizations changed some wording in their official documents.

[quote]
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:

I want you to point out any specific instance of misogyny in ANY piece of literature published by the IBM, the SAM or the Magic Circle since the official changes took place, that are not related to personality conflicts that are based on other problems.

You can't do it.
[/quote]

Again, just because they changed some literature doesnít erase the attitudes that existed prior to the changes. Again, Iím referring to the ATTITUDES of men. Your attempts to shift the focus onto official documents is just a straw man.

[quote]
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:

If I make a statement about the ability of any magician, male, or otherwise, I guarantee you it's based on that person's actual skills and not on anything else.
[/quote]

Good for you. Now whenís the last time you spoke up for women when men were standing around running us down like dogs? Or did you just stand there quietly? Or did you passively agree with them?

You have nothing to say when someone like Rocco Silano talks about what ďwomen were made for.Ē You think this attitude doesnít hurt anyone when someone of his level says something so stupid and misogynistic? He compared women to the animals in his show. Anyone who thinks misogynistic attitudes donít hurt women is just naÔve.

[quote]
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:

Give me one instance where you haven't gotten a job or where you have been mistreated due to some kind of misogyny practiced by any of the groups I have mentioned.
[/quote]

Again, here you go shifting the focus. Go back and read my initial post. Itís very clear I was referring to the ATTITUDES of men. YOU are the one who brought up all these organizations. The only one I mentioned was the Brotherhood. The name of an organization is representative of that organization. And the name clearly represents the exclusion of women.

All this talk about those organizations as a whole is just obfuscation on your part. You think you can shift the focus away from the attitudes of individual members. You figure that way Iíll have to indict the whole organization. No Bill Iím just talking about guys like you; the kind of guy who says nothing when someone says something like what MagicWatcher said and then insinuates I should be shamed for not liking it.

Well, Sorry to disappoint you Bill but Iím not ashamed of what I said. It is a true and accurate assessment of the majority of male ATTITUDES as I have experienced them. I have met some wonderful and supportive men in magic but I can say with all certainty that they have been few and far between compared to the number who have been demeaning and belittling toward women.

If you have something to say about the ATTITUDES of male magicians in general toward women, say it. But rattling on and on about technicalities in the official documents of a bunch of organizations is just evading the real issue.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 1, 2008 12:13PM)
Holly:

I can honestly say that I have not been in any discussions about the abilities of female magicians in which their abilities as a group were impugned or otherwise slighted in which I did not stand up for them. It has been so long since I even heard such a discussion that your comment is totally without merit.

I don't associate with bigots, male or female. This would, unfortunately, include you, because you have prejudged my intention and attitude without actually understanding it.

Since the Magic Circle decided to admit female members, there have been a couple of female members who have complained about such a bias. However, knowing these particular members and their way of dealing with people, I can assure you that any negative statements about them were not based on their skill as performers, but on the fact that they were simply difficult people to deal with.

I have been in the position of hiring performers on many occasions. If I have two performers to consider for one slot, one male and the other female, I hire the one that I consider to be a better performer.

For certain things, this performer would be Trixie Bond or Cherie Kay.

Why? Because for the shows that I don't take, if they are close-up or childrens shows, Trixie will be better than just about anyone else I know at filling the requirements. For hypnosis, it will be Cherie Kay.

For another specific type of show, I send John Star.

All of these are based on their abilities to entertain, their reliability, and
THE WAY THEY GET ALONG WITH PEOPLE.

If you are offended by the fact that the International BROTHERHOOD of Magicians has not changed its name to the International SIBLINGHOOD of Magicians, maybe you should check your definitions.

While the basic definition of the word does imply maleness, when it comes to trades, professions, etc., such as the IBM, the meaning is non gender-specific.
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jun 1, 2008 12:33PM)
[quote]
On 2008-06-01 13:13, Bill Palmer wrote:
Holly:

I don't associate with bigots, male or female. This would, unfortunately, include you, because you have prejudged my intention and attitude without actually understanding it.

[/quote]

Now Iím a bigot? Because I have an opinion you donít agree with? I stated my opinion based on my own personal experience. First you wanted to shame me. Now you want to throw me in with all bigots.

I didnít prejudge your intention. I understand you perfectly based on your words here in this thread. You are a malicious and desperate person who will make any disgusting allegation to make me look bad or feel bad just because you donít like my opinion.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 1, 2008 01:05PM)
No, Holly. You do a fine job of that all by yourself.

You certainly chose your login name well.
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jun 1, 2008 01:17PM)
Bill, I never spoke to you in my life before you came into this thread. In the very FIRST post you ever directed to me, you called one member an idiot and told me I should be ashamed. Thatís your opening post to the very FIRST dialogue we ever had. When you approach someone so belligerently, youíre not going to get a very positive response.

No one could have misunderstood your intention. Clearly it was to berate me. When you didnít get a positive response - as you no doubt expected - you decided to childishly and irresponsibly throw around the word bigot.

Now this:

[quote]
On 2008-06-01 14:05, Bill Palmer wrote:

You certainly chose your login name well.
[/quote]

I suppose in your world that passes as clever. This latest barb from you just further demonstrates that Iím right in thinking youíre a mean spirited and vindictive person.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Poveglia (Jun 2, 2008 08:24AM)
Not to sound sexist or anything, but I for one enjoy watching female magicians more than males. I find it extremely sexy. Like I said, please don't take this the wrong way because I am not trying to sound like a masochistic pig or anything, but it is true.

Take for example the show T.H.E.M. that Magic X put on. The guys would do tricks and in my head I'd be like "Seen that.....done that....pretty cool..etc" then Lisa would hop on the TV and do something remotely simplistic like UFO hover card and it had my full attention lol.

At least that's the way it is for me, so I'm assuming a lot of males who watch magic would feel the same way. Plus the attire that female magicians wear is motivation enough to watch them. Like I said, please don't take this the wrong way like I am objectifying women or making them out to seem like eye candy, just stating that I find female magicians to be captivating and feel they are a great asset to the art.
Message: Posted by: Tyler (Jun 2, 2008 01:22PM)
I'm with you Povelglia. I also think because there are fewer female magicians, they gain everyone's attention quicker. It's the unique factor that I think is the key here. (Also, the misdirection factor that I as a male can't help) I can be burning her hands waiting for the double lift (no pun intended) and will almost always get "misdirected" somehow. Always enjoy a good magic performance but like you my attention is held longer for a female performer.

Mike
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jun 2, 2008 02:32PM)
Holly lets see your avatar I hate talking to rabbit ears
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jun 3, 2008 03:47PM)
[quote]
On 2008-06-02 15:32, vinsmagic wrote:
Holly lets see your avatar I hate talking to rabbit ears
[/quote]

Clearly this is an antagonistic and provocative post. If you hate talking to a member with a default avatar - (tellingly Iím the only one youíve ever expressed any problem with regarding this issue) - then I suggest you simply donít. No one is forcing you to talk to anyone with a default avatar. Problem solved.

Glad I could be of help.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Dr. Delusion (Jun 3, 2008 08:00PM)
Maybe it's like a lot of you have said already. So far there's not a lot of desire for girls to become magicians. I have a list of 5 young ladies I rotate through for my shows. On average I have 2 of them assisting me at a show. They all started helping while in High School, and all of them are now in collage and most have part time jobs. I'm always asking them if they would like to perform a trick or 2 during the show. They all have told me about the same thing. They love being part of the show and enjoy magic, but they have no desire to perform. I would imagine things would change a lot if there was a female magician out there that was on T.V. a lot and became a role model, sort of like the way it was for girls soccer when Mia Hamm came along. I know that there's a lot of female magicians out there now, and almost any one of them could easily become that role model.
Bob.
Message: Posted by: Magic Spank (Jun 22, 2008 02:21AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote:
Lets see...off the top of my head. Luna Shimada, Ariel Black, Melinda, Galina, Julianna Chen, Funovitz.
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.
[/quote]

Yes there are many.

Way too many.

For me, women doing magic just doesn't click. Kind of like a male wet nurse. http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/miscarticles/milkmen.html

Sure they can do it, but it's weird.
Message: Posted by: mark2004 (Jun 23, 2008 02:48AM)
[quote]
On 2008-06-22 03:21, Magic Spank wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote:
Lets see...off the top of my head. Luna Shimada, Ariel Black, Melinda, Galina, Julianna Chen, Funovitz.
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.
[/quote]

Yes there are many.

Way too many.

For me, women doing magic just doesn't click. Kind of like a male wet nurse. http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/miscarticles/milkmen.html

Sure they can do it, but it's weird.
[/quote]

I guess none of the female magicians here have bothered responding to the post from "Magic Spank" because it could be trolling (ie. posting offensive messages on discussion forums for the sole purpose of getting other people riled). But moronic prejudice like that shouldn't be allowed to pass unchallenged.

Watching women perform magic seems extremely natural to me and not at all weird. And when it involves talented performers such as those previously listed it is a great pleasure.

Frankly, the weird thing is the way some people in the business seem to have the idea that women can't or shouldn't do magic.
Message: Posted by: todsky (Jun 23, 2008 11:15AM)
MagicSpank is probably just being purposely obnoxious to try to get a rise from the women, which is probably the only way he can get a rise. Either that, or he is a neanderthal who has been teleported to our present age. So he is best ignored and left to crawl back into his cave.
Message: Posted by: ElectricBlue (Jun 23, 2008 09:51PM)
Yup sounds like it, Maybe he should change his name to magic wank? Sounds far more appropriate.
Message: Posted by: QwEen_oV_mAgic (Jun 25, 2008 04:22AM)
I don't knnow about other contries but I am a female magician in NZ and I think 1 of the reasons there are not as many females magicians here might be because magic is views as a bit of a 'geeks' hobby
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Jun 25, 2008 10:24AM)
I think it is partially that and the notion of the simple fact that magic and the magician has always been portrayed as a male figure for the longest of times. I myself am a very lucky man. I am married to a beautiful lady who not only enjoys magic but is my magical partner on stage.

Notice I said partner and not assistant. To Kelly and I, there is a HUGE difference. She does way more then assist me. She is an intrical part in everything we do on stage. Without her in the show, the show and routines do not work. She is also a magician and she loves the art of magic as much as I do.

I am proud of her and also proud that we both get the chance to teahc other young ladies the art of magic through the SYM program both locally and nationally. It is wonderful to see so many young ladies getting involved and it is a joy to teach them our fine art.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Nell (Jun 26, 2008 05:46PM)
[quote]
On 2008-06-23 03:48, mark2004 wrote:

I guess none of the female magicians here have bothered responding to the post from "Magic Spank" because...
[/quote]

B-I-N-G-O!

It takes more than that to get me riled...and trust me, ask around, it happens. Sterling Dietz once told me, "I pity the mugger who meets you in a dark alley..." That was one of best compliments I've received. For a comment to be dignified with a response, a legitimate point must be made first. We're all entitled to opinions. I can think of a few Winston Churchill quotes which would adapt nicely here, but there's no point...

What actually bothers me more is the bantering above... This thread went waaaaaay off course. I hate to feel the need to say it, but I'm really tired of hearing droves of females in magic whine about discrimination. To me, it sounds like a dying cat. If you don't like it...don't sit around and complain--CHANGE IT! Use the effort that goes into arguing and apply it to making the best show/act you possibly can. PROVE that you belong where you are. Play the part of victim and that's who you'll be. I've never bought into that and I've never been treated with anything but respect from males in the community. Sure, there will always be a few *ahem* 'idiots' as I believe Bill put it, but in this human society, extremely unfortunately, we'll always have racists and neo-'s too... It's entirely wrong and I'll stand up against it, but I'll also have the facts first and know who my opponent is. We can't make someone see things in a different light if we don't understand why they formed the opinion they have in the first place!

In this particular case, I feel certain that things were taken far out of context. Mr. Palmer has never been anything but considerate to females in this industry, to the best of my knowledge and experience. Yes, often he has even taken up a fight on our behalf.

Granted, I'm not saying the issues aren't there, or that they should be ignored, but it's all "sticks and stones". Opening oneself up to victimization allows you to be victimized. I'm sure there are people who don't feel that I, as a female, should be a magician. However, not once, in my 18+ years in magic has someone confronted me directly with that. Sure that time may, and more than likely will come, but I will not eat my words then. I won't let one bad apple represent an entire bushel. That is entirely unfair. I'm going to continue to do what I've been doing and hopefully do it better each time.

I remember doing magic in public when I was much younger and having a group of laypersons watching. Many were thinking or saying, 'This kid's going to show us a little trick...' or to top that, 'This LITTLE GIRL is going to shows us a little magic trick'. Then I'd pull out something entirely professional, leave them speechless, smile, thank them kindly for watching, and move on. Those opinions never lasted after that. I'd often have the same people beg to see more next time I was around. That's how we battle stereotypes, with action, not words: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Indeed, they only make me stronger!

And yes, many things are said, especially in this forum, to try to make us ladies p.o.-ed. Stick around long enough, those posts are easy to spot, and believe it or not, even easier to ignore!

Please understand that I truly mean no disrespect or personal attack on anyone involved in this discussion. If anyone feels as such, I'm sorry, but I felt this needed to be said and it's not the first time I've spoken out about such a thing. I fully support women in magic and will, naturally, for the rest of my life, but I intend to fight the fight which needs to be fought. That's where we will make our mark and a difference. Anyhow, for the benefit of the forum as a whole, I implore everyone to leave needless bickering and childish name-calling behind, or at the very least, take it outside next time. That was enough to make me feel a little ashamed and I wasn't even directly involved... Thanks :)
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jun 27, 2008 01:48PM)
[quote]
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
I won't let one bad apple represent an entire bushel. That is entirely unfair.
[/quote]

Yes, youíre right; which is why I didnít do that. Just to keep the record straight; I never said all men were discriminatory against women. What I said was that the majority still had misogynistic attitudes toward women. That is purely my opinion although I would be willing to bet an extensive survey would bear that out to be true. As Iíve stated on previous posts, I love men and I think there are some wonderful men out there. Some are progressive and some are not; the same with women.

[quote]
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
What actually bothers me more is the bantering above... This thread went waaaaaay off course. I hate to feel the need to say it, but I'm really tired of hearing droves of females in magic whine about discrimination. To me, it sounds like a dying cat. If you don't like it...don't sit around and complain--CHANGE IT!
[/quote]

Education and discourse in these matters are also important ways of doing something about it.

[quote]
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
In this particular case, I feel certain that things were taken far out of context. Mr. Palmer has never been anything but considerate to females in this industry, to the best of my knowledge and experience. Yes, often he has even taken up a fight on our behalf.
[/quote]

I donít see that I took anything out of context. Mr. Palmerís intention was quite clear. He came with the intention of causing trouble. I stated an opinion he didnít like and he decided he would come in here and demean me.

Mr. Palmer could just as easily have said, ďHolly, I donít agree with you. I think the majority of men in magic are quite supportive. I donít believe there is a lingering misogynistic attitude still prevalent among the majority of men in magic in this day and age.Ē

But no; he came in here in attack mode and grossly misrepresented what I said. When I didnít just lie down and let him run over me, he threw around straw men and took a cheap shot with the word bigot in a shallow attempt to gain some sort of moral high ground.

He has no idea just how ridiculous it is for him to call me a bigot. Iím not getting into the extensive list of things I support and have voted for that more than clearly demonstrate Iím not a bigot but suffice it to say I support rights and equality for all people; men, women, black, white, gay, straight. So for the uninformed to call me a bigot is quite ridiculous and clearly a cheap shot.

[quote]
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
Anyhow, for the benefit of the forum as a whole, I implore everyone to leave needless bickering and childish name-calling behind, or at the very least, take it outside next time. That was enough to make me feel a little ashamed and I wasn't even directly involved... Thanks :)
[/quote]

I agree that childish name calling has no place here - or anywhere for that matter. However; people need to answer publicly for irresponsible public statements. To publicly call someone a bigot is one of the worst things you can call someone. Itís not a word that should be thrown around irresponsibly. People like Bill Palmer shouldnít be allowed to take their cheap shots and then have everything quietly swept under the rug.

Iím sure Mr. Palmer is not a bad person just as Iím sure Magic Spank or MagicWatcher are not bad people either. At least Iím willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But when they make public statements such as the ones they made, Iím sorry but someone ought to call them on it. Iím very happy to see that two men have called Magic Spank on his comments. I think they should be supported and appreciated for their efforts and I applaud them.

Itís true we canít fight everyone and one must pick oneís battles. But believe it or not, speaking out against injustices really does have an impact. Minds do respond to reason over time. Women eventually won the right to vote because it just became increasingly impossible to mount a logical argument against it. When arguments eventually reach the point such that they can be consistently demonstrated to be unable to hold up against comprehensive logic, those arguments begin to buckle and dissolve and minds really do begin to change. It may not seem like it but the battle against racism is being won. Misogyny will follow. Prejudice against homosexuals will follow that. And whatever other prejudices some humans can concoct to make themselves better than others. Ultimately itís all snobbery to me.

Itís a fact that the numbers of people in a chosen field are proportionate to the social acceptance of those people in that field. If the numbers of women in magic are lower than the numbers of men; independent of all other factors, there remains an irrevocable connection to social acceptance. The more women are accepted in the field, the more the numbers will grow. There is certainly more to it than that; however, thereís little doubt that social acceptance of female magicians is also a factor. For pointing that simple fact out, Iíve been called a bigot with the insinuation that I hate all men. Now THATíS taking something out of context.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Nell (Jun 28, 2008 10:06AM)
In regards to most of what you have just written, Holly, I certainly do agree. Thank you for seeing my post for what it was and not as an attack...

I feel that things were taken a bit out of context on both ends and things were taken far too personally until the issues were escalated beyond repair...

Personal issues should be handled privately, issues at large may be public. Personal attacks are just that and, if necessary, should remain so. An established thread is not an appropriate arena. That was all I was hoping to accomplish with my post. This is directed at no one and everyone, in particular.

That said, thanks for championing your fellow women in magic...
Message: Posted by: SillverFoxx (Jun 30, 2008 08:12PM)
[quote]
On 2008-05-31 12:03, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-12 02:49, HollyMental wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]



Magicwatcher2005ís profile says heís an ďElectonics [sic] designer.Ē Apparently Mr. Math canít even spell his own occupation.

Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. The magic fraternity still has a very archaic and misogynistic mindset. Even here at the Cafť, there are threads to discuss how to take advantage of women.

When will the magic fraternity become the magic community?


Holly
[/quote]

You are taking the comment of one idiot as representative of the majority of us.

Shame on you.
[/quote]
I have to agree. I'm new here, I know. But I have to say that as a Magic Chick, I was really looking forward to finding legitimate answers in this section to some technical questions, and I'm disappointed. I have found instead a lot of angry women.

Magicwatcher2005 may not have said it so eloquently, but his point about mathematics and mechanical aptitude is something I suspect is correct. However, there is a twist to this theory. For a very long time in schools, while women excelled in Language Arts, History, etc., men excelled in the subjects of Math and Science. There has been a huge effort to push girls into these subjects and level the playing field. They actually have changed the way they teach Math and Science in schools, to suit the learning styles of girls. *HOWEVER* While they did this for the girls, they DID NOT change the way the other subjects were taught to suit the learning styles of the boys. This has basically left the boys out to dry. Universities are beginning to see a dramatic change in the percentage of male applicants; it is now at approximately 40% versus the 60% application rate of females. I think this is because, as a side effect of teaching women that they could be successful in Math and Science, men were taught they could not be successful in any subject. Mind you, I'm not saying there aren't any males who score highly in school. I'm just saying the educational system has made it incredibly hard for the guys to do well. And if you're a parent of a male student of any age, you might agree.

I'm thinking that because of this shift in the Math and Science departments, we might just start to see more female magicians. Hopefully, the guys will stick around though, because I really enjoy their company! GUYS ARE NOT PIGS! I have not come across one male magician who did not encourage me to get involved. In fact, they all have been very supportive; it's the female magicians who tend to give me the evil eye!

For the record, I have a hard time learning effects because I have small hands and it's hard for me to hold onto things well. And no, I do not have any trouble performing while it's my time of the month. ;)
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jun 30, 2008 09:36PM)
[quote]
On 2008-06-30 21:12, SillverFoxx wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-05-31 12:03, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-12 02:49, HollyMental wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]



Magicwatcher2005ís profile says heís an ďElectonics [sic] designer.Ē Apparently Mr. Math canít even spell his own occupation.

Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. The magic fraternity still has a very archaic and misogynistic mindset. Even here at the Cafť, there are threads to discuss how to take advantage of women.

When will the magic fraternity become the magic community?


Holly
[/quote]

You are taking the comment of one idiot as representative of the majority of us.

Shame on you.
[/quote]

I have to agreeÖ
[/quote]

You can agree with Bill if you want but what about the fact that what he said isnít true? I didnít take MagicWatcherís comment as representative of the majority of males. Thatís just what Bill said and it isnít true. Read my original post again. I didnít base my opinion of men on MagicWatcherís post alone as Bill claimed. I based it off a lifetime of experiences. Itís been my experience that the majority of men think women are less intelligent than themselves. If youíve had a different experience then fine. Iím only speaking for myself.

Bill grossly misrepresented what I said and started a huge argument. One you apparently wish to continue. Seriously; Billís gross misrepresentation needs to be cleared up before people burn me at the stake.

[quote]
On 2008-06-30 21:12, SillverFoxx wrote:
GUYS ARE NOT PIGS!
[/quote]

I never insinuated at any time that I thought men were pigs. I never said such a thing and I have never said such a stupid thing in all of my life. I love men as I have stated repeatedly. I think men get a raw deal on some things and I think women get a raw deal on some things. I donít have a blanket view of men. Overall I think men are wonderful and I wouldnít want to live in a world without them.

I agree with much of what you said but seriously, youíve got me all wrong. The only thing Iíve gotten angry about is the constant misrepresenting of my statements. Other than that, Iíve made nothing but observations, none of which I would refuse to back away from in the face of any tangible evidence to the contrary. Iím open to have my opinion changed at anytime anyone can show me a change is warranted.

[quote]
On 2008-06-30 21:12, SillverFoxx wrote:

Öit's the female magicians who tend to give me the evil eye!
[/quote]

How is this blanket statement any different than what I said? This is your opinion based on your experience. Yet because itís women youíre badmouthing, thereís little chance that the Bill Palmers of the world will come in here and chastise you for making such a blanket statement.

Seriously, this whole thing is getting ridiculous. I donít know how much clearer I could be. Iím going to try and leave this nonsense alone unless someone else wants to come in here and just outright butcher my words some more. In the meantime, you can all go get the kindling for the fire. It looks like youíve found your witch.


Holly
Message: Posted by: SillverFoxx (Jun 30, 2008 11:22PM)
Hi Holly! :)
I had no intention of targeting you or anyone else in my post; I'm sorry if you felt attacked. I had skimmed the posts on this thread, and wanted to try to address the original question... because it comes up with my friends a lot... but it had gotten somewhat muddled. I was actually just pointing out that there could be an increase in female magicians now, and used that specific post as a starting place. And I figured I'd stick up for the guys a little, because I think they tend to get the short end of the stick sometimes. I'm sorry if you thought I was passing it to you.
Sweet dreams, and I'm glad to meet another magic chickie!! :)
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jul 1, 2008 02:22AM)
Okay. Iím sorry too. Itís just that since Iíve been here, Iíve been called a bigot by two different people after just meeting them and Iíve been accused about three times of being some man hating monster who feeds on male children. It seems like things go immediately to extremes around here. Itís as if you can say, ďI thinkÖ,Ē and then suddenly someone is saying, ďOh yeah, well youíre an evil bigot!Ē So I apologize for being defensive.

And yes, youíre right. Itís important to acknowledge the positive things men do while discussing anything negative so as not to risk sounding as though bashing them. Itís true theyíve done many wonderful things that deserve to be recognized.

Iíve always felt that men and women should be able to be different and respect each other for who we are and celebrate the differences. Iíve always hated the idea of a woman earning respect by becoming like a man. I think women are still struggling with our identities in male dominated fields. It seems like the question is always how can I be a woman and be feminine and still get these guys to respect me and accept me on an equal par? As women become able to more clearly define ourselves as performers in this field, it will get easier and easier I think. At least I hope.


Holly


P.S. Thanks for being so nice. Iíve been hoping for a more positive direction for this thread.
Message: Posted by: SillverFoxx (Jul 1, 2008 01:25PM)
LOL!! You're very welcome chica!

Play nice people; it's much more fun that way!! If we could all do everything just as perfectly as the next person, that would be boring and no one would get a chance to shine.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Jul 4, 2008 02:42PM)
All I cansay is that I wish some of the male magicians were as creative and as hard working as some of the female magician friends I have had the pleasure to meet and work with.

I am a very very lucky guy. my wife is not only my partner in life but my partner in magic to. I am blessed that we can both share the stage together. She is NOT just an assistant and she is WAY more then a box jumber. My wife is my Magical Partner.

I simply can not do my shows without her. She has become an intrical part of each routine we do and create together. We play off each other and she has become quite an accomplished magician in her own right.

I am so very porud of her and recently she just won 3rd place stage for the very first stage act she ever created. She is not good because she is female. She is not favored because she wears lipstick and makeup. She is good because she works hard at it and gives back to magic. I for one respect her and anyone for that regardless of what sex they are.

Just my opinion.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Magic Spank (Jul 15, 2008 12:37AM)
[quote]
On 2008-06-23 12:15, todsky wrote:
MagicSpank is probably just being purposely obnoxious to try to get a rise from the women, which is probably the only way he can get a rise.
[/quote]
[quote]
On 2008-06-23 22:51, blueberry_fox wrote:
Yup sounds like it, Maybe he should change his name to magic wank? Sounds far more appropriate.
[/quote]

Can't get it up? Magic Wank?

Grow up people. If you can't deal with the fact that women aren't universally accepted in the role of magician therapy may be in order.

A woman who does magic is a witch. Look it up.

Women are free to do whatever they want. If I find a woman doing magic, or playing football strange, that's my opinion. Many people are uncomfortable with a male nurse.

But before you start wondering aloud how I might get a rise or discussing my wanking abilites you should consider that this is an all ages board.

The question was why aren't there more female magicians and my opinion is not only not so unusual but offers some insight into the reasons why.

Your comments do not.
Message: Posted by: mark2004 (Jul 15, 2008 01:46PM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-15 01:37, Magic Spank wrote:

Grow up people. If you can't deal with the fact that women aren't universally accepted in the role of magician therapy may be in order.
[/quote]

Yup, therapy for misogynists like you Magic Spank.

[quote]
A woman who does magic is a witch. Look it up.
[/quote]

I did and I can confirm it's perfectly possible for a woman who does magic to be a magician. What's more, "witch" is not generally an appropriate description for a woman who performs magic as a stage art (unless she is playing the character of a witch for dramatic purposes). The term "witch" has specific connotations that relate to the supernatural or occult meaning of the word magic.

[quote]
Women are free to do whatever they want. If I find a woman doing magic, or playing football strange, that's my opinion.
[/quote]

Not a very helpful opinion though. And everyone else's opinion seems to be that you'd be better taking your opinion elsewhere.

If your views were logically argued and you explained how you came by them then it might help us understand what's wrong with you. Unfortunately your reasoning seems to extend no further than an opinion that women performing magic is somehow wrong.

[quote]
Many people are uncomfortable with a male nurse.
[/quote]

Not exactly the same sort of situation is it? Even with close-up magicians we're not talking about the same sort of intimacy issues that cause some people to prefer to be treated by a nurse of a particular sex. You're not (I hope) expecting a magician to give you a bed bath or change your dressings.

[quote]
But before you start wondering aloud how I might get a rise or discussing my wanking abilites you should consider that this is an all ages board.

The question was why aren't there more female magicians and my opinion is not only not so unusual but offers some insight into the reasons why.
[/quote]

Well I suppose it illustrates how one of the reasons is the existence of misogynist twerps like you.
Message: Posted by: SillverFoxx (Jul 15, 2008 11:38PM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-15 14:46, mark2004 wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-07-15 01:37, Magic Spank wrote:


The question was why aren't there more female magicians and my opinion is not only not so unusual but offers some insight into the reasons why.
[/quote]

Well I suppose it illustrates how one of the reasons is the existence of misogynist twerps like you.
[/quote]
WOOHOO!!! NICE REPLY MARK 2004!!!
Maybe a certain someone is just a little grumpy-umpy. Maybe he would like a little huggy wuggy? (not from me of course) ;)
Message: Posted by: jlevey (Jul 21, 2008 10:42PM)
Todsky wrote:

"...And there are very few working female magicians (stage or close-up) here in Canada. And I don't know a single one here in Montreal."

Hmmm, I guess that's "half true", Todsky. You have not yet met my wife, have you? But yo do know of her, from my tellingyo about her and the way we work together... don't you? She has been 50 percent of the Magical duo, "Max & Maxine" and has performed corporate magic with me in Montreal for the last 20 years.

You can see a photo of her on our web site at: http://www.maxmagician.com

and a videoclip of us working a room together on our "Close-up" page.

She is "not" my assistant, but my equal partner.

We use to perform a stage show together (where she was her own performer and not my assistant). Now, we perform primarily Mingling Magic toether.

In mingling magic, we stand at the doorway to the room together, greeting the guests as they enter --putting them in a fun-filled mood from the start, for the evening to come. Then, once the guests have all arrived, "Maxine" takes one part of the room and I take the other part. Then, then we ciculate. Maxinee performs her own set of magical effects and interactive routines seperately from me, while I perform my own set apart form her.

Lots of fun for us as a couple and as individual entertainers in our own right. And, of course, she is great at what she does.

Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Magic Spank (Jul 31, 2008 02:32AM)
Mark2004 why so disturbed by my opinon?

It's not going to get you a date.

I don't consider myself a mysogynist since I harbor no hatred towards women.

Like many if not most others on this planet, I expect certain things of women. As I do of men.

I'm simply expressing a viewpoint. I understand your need to attack me but it's got nothing to offer this topic.

My wife has been involved in magic, my daughter does magic. The fact is that there is a huge hurdle for them to overcome if they decide to become performing magicians and I'm not the one who created it, nor perpetuates it. I'm simply stating the fact that many people (probably the majority) expect a magician to be a man. This isn't something I've created. If you choose to deny that it's a reality in our society so be it. But there's no reason to attack me.

Picking apart my comments regarding male nurses and such are a pathetic attempt at avoiding the point of the thread.

Why are there so few female magicians?

Again, my answer is that many such as myself expect a magician to be a male. Changing this expectation will require more than verbal degradation to those who expect it.
Message: Posted by: mark2004 (Aug 1, 2008 03:19AM)
[quote]
On 2008-07-31 03:32, Magic Spank wrote:
Mark2004 why so disturbed by my opinon?
[/quote]

I'm not that disturbed, just saddened. The reason I responded is that prejudices need to be challenged

[quote]
It's not going to get you a date.
[/quote]

I'm not looking to date you

[quote]
I don't consider myself a mysogynist since I harbor no hatred towards women.
[/quote]

Yet you display blatant prejudice.

[quote]
Like many if not most others on this planet, I expect certain things of women. As I do of men.

I'm simply expressing a viewpoint. I understand your need to attack me but it's got nothing to offer this topic.
[/quote]

On the contrary. The attitude you displayed in your post is an example of one of the factors that has held back women in magic.

[quote]
My wife has been involved in magic, my daughter does magic. The fact is that there is a huge hurdle for them to overcome if they decide to become performing magicians and I'm not the one who created it, nor perpetuates it.
[/quote]

You might not have been the first to take the attitude you've taken but your earlier posts here certainly seem to be helping to perpetuate it.

[quote]
I'm simply stating the fact that many people (probably the majority) expect a magician to be a man. This isn't something I've created. If you choose to deny that it's a reality in our society so be it. But there's no reason to attack me.
[/quote]

I think your posts went beyond simply stating a fact - you seemed to be endorsing that fact.

[quote]
Picking apart my comments regarding male nurses and such are a pathetic attempt at avoiding the point of the thread.
[/quote]

It was you who cited nurses as an example. Presumably you thought it was an example that was relevant to the debate. You should have expected it to be picked apart. I think it was you who was trying to duck the issue by bringing up nurses and me who was trying to get back to the point of the thread by stating the differences between the two situations.

[quote]
Why are there so few female magicians?

Again, my answer is that many such as myself expect a magician to be a male. Changing this expectation will require more than verbal degradation to those who expect it.
[/quote]

It is fair enough for you to point out that significant numbers of people seem to favour male magicians. But that doesn't make it a [b]good[/b] reason for women to stay out of magic. Actually it is a rather bad reason. The problem is that your posts read as if you endorse the idea that prejudice or the status quo should determine how things ought to be. Try telling that to the civil rights movement.

I repeat what I said at the beginning - prejudices need to be challenged. The problem with your posts is that they seem to be supporting prejudice. If I have totally misundrstood you then I apologise. But that's the way your posts read to me and to others.
Message: Posted by: makeupguy (Jan 3, 2009 10:33PM)
I'm going to take some heat for this.. but the reason why there aren't more women magicians is multi-fold.

Men are pigs. If you've ever traveled through a magic convention and listened to whispered comments.. male magicians aren't very open to women as competition.

Most women aren't very good magicians. This is the fault of what we view as a "magician". Seeing a woman get on stage.. and try to do her version of a male act is rough to watch. It's even harder for a woman illusionist because so many illusions are "torture" tricks. It's hard to watch a woman do these.. if you do it to a man.. it's a gimmick. If you do it to a woman... it's just odd. There are several really good exceptions to this rule.. but LONG GONE are the days of seeing Dianna Zimmerman do the sawing in half with a male assistant and call it Women's Lib.

It's as hard for a woman to develop a "talkie" magic act as it is for a woman to develop a "comedy" act. Woman have to walk a fine line in comedy. They need to be funny.. but if they cross the line into being offensive.. it's not as acceptable as it is when men cross the same line. I don't think that's OK.. it's just the way it is.

Women don't take chances. They're taught at a very early age to behave. That's a DARN shame.

The visual is important. Men expect to see women on stage in a certain shape, size and demeanor. If you don't' fit the mold, you're going to be less successful. There are loads of fat magicians in cloths that don't fit doing shows all over the world. I call them slobs, some people call them entertainers. However, a woman magician that's out of shape in ill fitting clothes would never make it past her first audition.

Come to think of it.. I'd LOVE to see more women in the magic field. It's a profession that's crying for new material, performed from a new perspective, all the while looking better doing it. (By looking better, I don't mean with the body of a supermodel... I'm just talking about clothes that are in style and FIT.)
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jan 4, 2009 04:57AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2008-05-31 15:17, HollyMental wrote:
Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhoodÖIn my experience, that one idiot DOES represent the majority of males.
[/quote]

[quote]
On 2008-06-22 03:21, Magic Spank wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote:
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.
[/quote]

Yes there are many.

Way too many.

For me, women doing magic just doesn't click. Kind of like a male wet nurse.

Sure they can do it, but it's weird.
[/quote]

Iím not going to presume I know the answer to this question or why some things are the way they are, but I must point out that I think the above statements are ridiculous. I do not, nor no I know anyone, who believes this, nor do I know anyone who believes that women canít be just as successful or more successful than men. Whether it be mathematics politics or magic, success has nothing to do with gender or race, etc. The results of the last presidential election are more evidence of this fact.

[quote]
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
If you don't like it...don't sit around and complain--CHANGE IT! Use the effort that goes into arguing and apply it to making the best show/act you possibly can. PROVE that you belong where you are. Play the part of victim and that's who you'll be. I've never bought into that and I've never been treated with anything but respect from males in the community. Sure, there will always be a few *ahem* 'idiots' as I believe Bill put it, but in this human society, extremely unfortunately, we'll always have racists and neo-'s too... It's entirely wrong and I'll stand up against itÖ
[/quote]

I could not have said it any better, so I wonít even try. Good post Nell.
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jan 4, 2009 12:51PM)
Nice quote mining. I love the way you mixed and matched my words (from conversations with two different people) for optimal effect. I tried to explain my position (which has been repeatedly misunderstood) at great length but thanks for trying to instigate an argument all over again.

As I said, I was referring to attitudes and I NEVER said it was all men. I say itís a predominant attitude. You say itís not. So we just disagree there.

As to how to change it, attitudes donít change overnight. It takes time. And Iím satisfied attitudes are improved now over what they were in the past. Iím also satisfied that things continue to improve. Oh, and talking about it and discussing it, challenging views, IS doing something about it.

With that, I hope I can one day be done with this conversation. At least until the next time someone decides to misinterpret or quote mine my words looking for an argument.


Holly
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jan 4, 2009 02:19PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-04 13:51, HollyMental wrote:
Nice quote mining. I love the way you mixed and matched my words (from conversations with two different people) for optimal effect. I tried to explain my position (which has been repeatedly misunderstood) at great length but thanks for trying to instigate an argument all over again.
[/quote]

In quoting someone, I thought the ďÖ.Ē was the universal symbol for saying, ďIíve left something out of this personís quote.Ē If I am wrong about that, or you feel I have misinterpreted you, I am sorry. Quite frankly I donít think I did, since you just stated AGAIN what I am calling a ridicules statement.

[quote]
On 2009-01-04 13:51, HollyMental wrote:
As I said, I was referring to attitudes and I NEVER said it was all men. I say itís a predominant attitude. You say itís not. So we just disagree there.
[/quote]

Itís the Ďpredominantí or Ďmajorityí that is ridiculous. When you make a statement like, ďIt seems to represent the majority of male opinion in the brotherhood that women are not good at math and mechanical stuff,Ē on a public forum like this, do you have any idea how many men youíve just insulted? In my opinion it is a very small minority. That is the point I wanted to make. You are right, we disagree.

[quote]
On 2009-01-04 13:51, HollyMental wrote:
With that, I hope I can one day be done with this conversation. At least until the next time someone decides to misinterpret or quote mine my words looking for an argument.
[/quote]

If you would like to be done with this conversation, I suggest you ask the moderators to delete your posts.

I am not looking for an argument. I made a post on this thread because of several (not just yours) outrages statements made. I suspect this is the same reason you made your first post. So, maybe we are not so different after all.

And humbly, just for the record, my wife teaches Physics and Chemistry and I will proudly admit, she is far smarter than I, as are many women.
Message: Posted by: HollyMental (Jan 4, 2009 02:33PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-04 15:19, Ken Northridge wrote:
In quoting someone, I thought the ďÖ.Ē was the universal symbol for saying, ďIíve left something out of this personís quote.Ē
[/quote]

Yes but you left a great deal out and mined specifically to skew perception of my overall view.

[quote]
On 2009-01-04 15:19, Ken Northridge wrote:

I am not looking for an argument.
[/quote]

Your actions speak otherwise. When you see an argument has occurred in a thread and ended, there can be only one reason you would drudge it all up; youíre looking for an argument.


Listen Ken, I was admittedly upset with the initial post I responded to. My first mistake was in thinking others would find it understandable why I would be upset. I was wrong. I see now that I will be vilified regardless of what I say. So what can I say to put an end to people quoting select pieces of my words to make my views look more extreme than they are? Trying to explain my views is to no avail so what can I say, Ken?

I was wrong. Will that end this?


Holly
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jan 4, 2009 02:47PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-04 15:33, HollyMental wrote:
I was admittedly upset with the initial post I responded to. My first mistake was in thinking others would find it understandable why I would be upset. I was wrong.
[/quote]

I understand completely! Magicwatcher2005 insulted many women, including my wife. I was upset too, as were most on this thread.

I sincerely hope that you and other women will continue to succeed in this business.
Message: Posted by: BIGmagiclV (Jan 27, 2009 06:34PM)
If I may toss something out there...
I could make a case for the geek factor in getting into magic. Magic is like doing standup comedy. Many initially start because they don't have the best social skills or are shy and tend to find things that they can do that would make them accepted. I believe males tend to have more problems in that area than females so these hobbies lend themselves to be more male oriented. what do you think?
Message: Posted by: todsky (Jan 30, 2009 08:51PM)
The geek factor certainly played a part in my magical upbringing. So what do female geeks turn to? Maybe there are some women scientists out there who would make fine magicians as well.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Feb 8, 2009 12:14AM)
I wonder if magic is going to increase or decrease with females in the future?
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Feb 8, 2009 07:34AM)
I've noticed many female magicians on the lastest magic special on TV, all of whom are very talented. I don't see how this could do anything but encourage more of the same.
Message: Posted by: CHAPPELL (Feb 9, 2009 11:30AM)
Did nobody hear about Adelaide Herrmann? or Beatrice Houdini (who went in just as fast as Harry came out of a certain trunk now at the Magic Castle)? or Jade? Or Diana Zimmerman? Long list.

Maybe the wrong angle is considered here. Performing magicians are actors, performers PRIMARILY and working wonders is just the plot of our play. Maybe it is a casting question not a skill question and has little to do with how good one might be, or not be, at math or woodturning or any of that.

Are box jumpers not magicians? Why, most of the magi in big Vegas shows could be female magicians, when you look at it that way.

Richiardi Jr. waved his hands and picked up his wife's feet as she perched on the broom. She wore the harness and convincingly acted as if she had no idea how this worked. Now, that's magic.

maybe the guy to aske would be Bob Neale. He could shed some light on why the shaman is typically male in most societies.
Message: Posted by: wkitwizard (Feb 9, 2009 12:13PM)
Blah, blah, blah. Maybe the men should stay out of this area of the Cafť?
If you take a look at the Eastern part of Europe you will see a small but growing
cadre of female magicians, eager to out-do any male on the stage or closeup table.
With their background of dance, music and dramatic costume & lighting, they have
a lot to show the New World.
Wake up and smell the change in the air.
WK
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Feb 15, 2009 02:14PM)
I remember Genii had a survey of why there weren't more female magicians. The answers were wowsers! Some of the best were;

Women won't take the time to practice

Women aren't strong enough to carry the props

and my particular favorite

Women aren't inherently graceful. (????)


My own take on the subject was that women are not raised to play with toys. Boys get cars, figures, they play with fantasy worlds on many levels, girls get housekeeping and beauty toys.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Feb 15, 2009 10:05PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-09 12:30, CHAPPELL wrote:


Are box jumpers not magicians? Why, most of the magi in big Vegas shows could be female magicians, when you look at it that way.

[/quote]

In my quest to redefine the role of the assistant as a Performance Partner I teach in my workshops that the "assistant" is every bit as much a magician as the "magician." I know a lot of charleys will take exception to that truth...
Message: Posted by: BudTCB (Mar 3, 2009 11:11PM)
I got in on this thread late,.. but still want to share this. I keep telling my wife she should really consider putting together a little magic show and do some birthday parties and school carnivals and Things like that. I think she would be great at it. In fact,.. Many times,.. she will learn the trick so she can teach it to me. for instance, professor's nightmare, she learned it and taught me a better way to count the ropes after they are made to be the same size. and she showed me a smoother and cleaner way to link the linking rings, not to mention she's an expert at climbing into all our illusions. I'll tell ya, many times, It is the Women that are the brains behind the operation. Saying Abracadabra is the easy part,.. it is climing into the illusions, and making some of us guys shine that is the Real Talent. You women are the TRUE Stars of the Show. So I must say to my wife,.. Honey, You're awesome, I couldn't do it without you.
BJ
Message: Posted by: Lbuford (Apr 9, 2009 07:00PM)
I think it has to be something special in us women who have a true interest in the world of magic. I find that I just have a natural interest in the Arts. How many of you also have another 'arts' interest other than magic, be it music, arts & craft, etc.? I for one have many. I think it's like being an alcoholic without knowing it until you have that first drink. My intersest was peaked a few years ago and I never lost it.
Message: Posted by: lozey (Apr 14, 2009 01:42PM)
[quote]
On 2009-01-03 23:33, makeupguy wrote:

Men are pigs. If you've ever traveled through a magic convention and listened to whispered comments.. male magicians aren't very open to women as competition.

Women don't take chances. They're taught at a very early age to behave. That's a DARN shame.

The visual is important. Men expect to see women on stage in a certain shape, size and demeanor. If you don't' fit the mold, you're going to be less successful. There are loads of fat magicians in cloths that don't fit doing shows all over the world. I call them slobs, some people call them entertainers. However, a woman magician that's out of shape in ill fitting clothes would never make it past her first audition.

Come to think of it.. I'd LOVE to see more women in the magic field. It's a profession that's crying for new material, performed from a new perspective, all the while looking better doing it. (By looking better, I don't mean with the body of a supermodel... I'm just talking about clothes that are in style and FIT.)[/quote]

I certainly agree with some of these points. I was brainwashed into behaving as a kid and you don't really forget that

Yes, magic conventions are a big negative point for female magicians I'v found. Dealers point blank ignore you. You get 50 guys a day (or more) try to seduce you. The hushed whispers (or sometimes blatent comments) are worse than in high school, for cripes sake! The few magicians that talk to you treat you like a novelty act and are constantly pushing onto you whatever trick they are rehersing right now 'pick a card...pick a card...pick a card'

The point of the way magicians dress is interesting. Of course sex sells, that's why adverts for cars, perfume ect are aften plastered with images of semi naked women. I am not at all good looking. I have a weight problem due to essential medication. I also have excema and acne. But I style my hair nice, wear a bespoke £500 suit, handmade velvet shirts and a handmade waistcoat. Do you think I ever get accepted for 'magicians events' like shows, competitions ect - Not on your life!!! I don't look like a female magician 'should look' Im told. I cant cure my health problems and Im not going to spend hours ever day in the gymn when I could be spending time on something far more valuble - my magic ;)
Message: Posted by: Adir (Sep 23, 2016 02:30PM)
Can we please, PLEASE answer the original question? It's true that I've yet to find many different styles of female magicians to look up to as role models and to see how they act. The few I have watched just played up the sexy act. You know, the whole, "look at me, I'm so sexy with my cards and magic". That's not what my personality is. The two magicians who inlenced my persona most are Ricky Jay and Brian Brushwood, but I'm not sure how well that type of personality is taken when the magician is female.
So who are some of the greatest female magicians who come to mind?
Message: Posted by: supertoad12 (Sep 28, 2016 08:35AM)
Melinda Sachsen, Charlotte Pendragons, Krystyn Lambert, Juliana Chen and Joanie Spina to name a few...
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Aug 30, 2018 08:59PM)
This is a western phenomenon. If you go to Asia, you find that about half the magicians are women, particularly stage magicians.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Sep 22, 2018 05:22AM)
Most if not all the Asian women that perform magic, have what I would call Style. They incorporate their stage personality into their presentations.

Western and European women do not take the time and dedication it takes to design their stage personality with their magic presentations. I have seen one woman, go out and buy a lot of tricks, and they went out an started magic competitions. She actually won one small convention contest. Made the rounds at other conventions on guest appearances at the stage shows. She was introducing new material very often, instead of sticking with the material she won with. In another year, she was gone, as she did not "hit the big time".

The magic community is ready to support women, as in all show business, there is no easy and direct road to high paying jobs.

It is even harder today, as the world of entertainment has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Close-up magic is not the new stage magic, and figuring out how to present card tricks in a manner a whole audience will enjoy is even harder. It has not been done before, thus there is transition to get use to, with no guidelines to follow.

There is a transition from theaters for stage show, has not changed to theaters for close-up magic shows. Theater audiences are smaller, simply so that everyone can see the effects being shown. What use to be shown to an audience of 30 people is not being show to 150 or 200 people. How to give the same experience to every customer is challenging for the performer.

Look at Penn and Teller Fool Us television show, that is the new close up audiences of today. Are they close-up, certainly not.
Message: Posted by: David_MacFarlane (Oct 6, 2018 11:51AM)
Has anyone mentioned Hitchens' "Why Women Aren't Funny"? I think some of his arguments are applicable...

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2007/01/hitchens200701
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Oct 6, 2018 07:29PM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2018, David_MacFarlane wrote:
Has anyone mentioned Hitchens' "Why Women Aren't Funny"? I think some of his arguments are applicable...

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2007/01/hitchens200701 [/quote]

Reads very patriarchal. I think the most meaningful part of that piece was when the author averred, "in some way men do not want women to be funny [or magicians]. They want them as an audience, not as rivals. And there is a huge, brimming reservoir of male unease, which it would be too easy for women to exploit."
Message: Posted by: David_MacFarlane (Oct 6, 2018 10:23PM)
Maybe. I think there's also something to the idea that men feel a need to be entertaining to attract women's attention. A guy can practice an Ambitious Card routine and get some attention from girls... A girl can get the same attention from guys by smiling.
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Oct 7, 2018 11:18AM)
Such a mystery, right? So confusing! It must be something innate in girls and women. If only we could figure out exactly what it is. But we know it's inherent, not anything we can really do anything about except shrug our shoulders and continue on.

In this 5-page thread, I don't see anyone asking women what they think and then actually listening to them. The fact that 50% of magicians in Asia are women is curious, maybe not even true because it feels wrong, but in any event that is not a significant or meaningful fact.

It's all so opaque, isn't it, guys? An unsolvable mystery...
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Oct 7, 2018 11:29AM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2018, David_MacFarlane wrote:
Maybe. I think there's also something to the idea that men feel a need to be entertaining to attract women's attention. A guy can practice an Ambitious Card routine and get some attention from girls... A girl can get the same attention from guys by smiling. [/quote]

Adult men need to get over the notion that men can gain favor from women by doing magic. Not only is it not the case for those past adolescence, it's kind of sad. See last night's SNL sketch. https://youtu.be/yAH9_HUACQ8

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome.
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Oct 10, 2018 11:34AM)
Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

[quote]I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin[/quote]

[quote]
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.[/quote]

[quote]
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.[/quote]

[quote]She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...[/quote]

[quote]I would like to date a female magician.[/quote]

[quote]When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.[/quote]

[quote]What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.[/quote]

[quote]That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...
[/quote]

Very disappointing.
Message: Posted by: gomerel (Oct 10, 2018 06:22PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

[quote]I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin[/quote]

[quote]
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.[/quote]

[quote]
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.[/quote]

[quote]She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...[/quote]

[quote]I would like to date a female magician.[/quote]

[quote]When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.[/quote]

[quote]What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.[/quote]

[quote]That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...
[/quote]

Very disappointing. [/quote]
:-(((
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 19, 2018 05:55PM)
A lot of those quotes are mine. I am not a misogyn...misogin...mmmph. I do not hate women! I regret my posts are taken that way. I have never been married, no kids. My one true love died of breast cancer in 2005. I am 63 years old this week. I am done defending myself. OK ladies. I am a pig. An inappropriate boor. Ugly as a stump fence, bald and fat as a butterball. Laugh at me. Knock my hat off...throw me out. I stay home a lot now. I only go out when necessary. And I keep my EYES LOWERED! No "misunderstandings" that way. I am beginning to think most women hate me. The only thing more "disliked", I have found, than a Magician is a Disc jockey. I have been both. 46 years on the radio.

Not feeling too good about being "male" right now... :(

Doug
Message: Posted by: Taylor Haws (Oct 20, 2018 10:06AM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

[quote]I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin[/quote]

[quote]
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.[/quote]

[quote]
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.[/quote]

[quote]She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...[/quote]

[quote]I would like to date a female magician.[/quote]

[quote]When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.[/quote]

[quote]What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.[/quote]

[quote]That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...
[/quote]

Very disappointing. [/quote]

I would just like to point out that many female magicians I see are hardly shy to show off there bodies.
Many of these quotes are simply pointing out an obvious advantage that women have. Men also have plenty of advantages. Saying that it is sexist to say that women can use there boobs as misdirection is like saying it's sexist to say that men have bigger hands that are better for palming, or have louder, more powerful voices.
My favorite quote from above is "I would like to date a female magician." How on earth is this sexist? I think it would be fun to date a female magician! There are very few magicians where I live and no magic shops, so I almost never get the opportunity to talk magic with anyone. It would be awesome to date somone who shares my hobby.
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Oct 22, 2018 06:31PM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:
I would just like to point out that many female magicians I see are hardly shy to show off there bodies.[/quote]

Perhaps you're having a chicken and egg problem. I suggest that women do that because they know that's what it's going to take to get noticed, to get booked, and to be successful. This is especially true of stage magicians, where we have a century long culture of women parading around in bathing suits and heels, smiling and dancing for the men. So really, it's just a reflection of the problem. Not that there is anything "wrong" with a woman showing off her body to a certain degree, but it shouldn't be "necessary." Let's just all be thankful Penn Gillette isn't parading around the stage in a Speedo. Let's be thankful men don't have to be beautiful to be successful. Do you know any fat, ugly, successful female stage magicians?

[quote]
Many of these quotes are simply pointing out an obvious advantage that women have. Men also have plenty of advantages. Saying that it is sexist to say that women can use there boobs as misdirection is like saying it's sexist to say that men have bigger hands that are better for palming, or have louder, more powerful voices. [/quote]

Um, no. And if you can't see why, I can't help you.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 31, 2018 11:07AM)
This is an interesting run of thoughts and debate here, an old circular track that will not change, and a race that cannot be won... And seems to do little beyond feed old fires as to why people do what they do and feel the way they feel. But the fire is light, and hopefully shows the way to a better way & condition. If women do not stand up for themselves, then just who exactly is going to do it? I personally believe that women are capable of anything men are capable of, if given the opportunity (I think this way about all people really). And really, deep down men know this, which is why they thwart every step forward. I don't know, I cheer every little & giant step women make. It's what has to be done to change things for the "better"...That's the only way you ever truly get to what's "best" in life...First the good, then the better, then the best. :)

It's hard to speak for women, and typically men should not but because it's a man's world (at least in their minds and behind their hands in it) mostly where the internal thinking when all else fails is that might makes right, well, it just makes it harder for men to understand or want better to understand these "man" things/ impulses they feel are just how they feel or feel a need to relate, or something like that. :)

I acutely think of all this back & forth when I'm watching nature shows, when you see how animals (and we are animals) sexually/socially interact. It's not that women don't like the attention, but they only like it when they like it, and usually it's when it's their time to better recognize it as something they have a need/feeling to do. Anyway, it seems they (the animals) have ways to make the males know they are interested. And the males are always interested. :) But if the female is not, she will let you know that too, in no uncertain terms, but it doesn't stop males from trying. Sounds sorta familiar, right? :) Interesting that if, let's say, a lion comes across a female with cubs, he may kill the cubs so that the female can sorta re-set her need/desire(?) to interact again. Now you would think, thinking like a human, that a woman would never do such and you're probably right, but there are many relative connections to us as well, just that we are of higher thinking capacity and not simply working off instinct. But at the core, the process is interestingly similar as to making one's way forward. Of course there's a lot more to it, but ain't it always the case? :)

Our higher thinking is not devoid of instinct. In fact, our instincts for all this is certainly flirted with as well, both men and women. With our supposed "higher thinking," we are able most times to better appropriate/control our behavior, which is connected and orchestrated by the societies we are of. Mix in the possibility of "love" in the equation and you exponentially create even more to think about and consider.

In general, it is perhaps a good thing to better recognize the animal in us, and use our higher minds as we use cages to first recognize that the opposite sex are first & foremost our human equals and partners in this life, and so a strong respect is warranted to ward off the deeper impulses we might feel at times to pursue. Can't say it's always easy, but you always have time to better think about your approach toward any possible better outcome than you might ordinarily get from such interactions. So there's no "trick" to it, but when it's right it certainly can possibly be quite magical for you when it's magical for her as well. ;)
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Nov 1, 2018 12:54PM)
Animal instinct? Gosh, it almost sounds like it's about sex rather than magic. Of course, sex can be magic if you do it right... ;)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Nov 1, 2018 03:23PM)
[quote]On Nov 1, 2018, danaruns wrote:
...Of course, sex can be magic if you do it right... ;) [/quote]

Too true...I feel better now... ;)
Message: Posted by: equivoque (Nov 3, 2018 05:18PM)
Women already make 15 to 20% less then Men. Therefore, on a magician salaryÖ
Message: Posted by: Tim Snyder (Nov 4, 2018 08:31PM)
[quote]On Oct 7, 2018, danaruns wrote:

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome. [/quote]

This is shocking to me! Any program where half the participants are unable to complete the program is a FAILED program. Do you know what if any steps the Castle is taking to rectify this situation? It isn't an "unavoidable outcome" like you state. The magic community as a whole may be unwieldy, but it should not be that difficult to implement changes to a specific program. You start by surveying the dropouts. What made them quit? You involve secret shoppers. Have some female members/magicians join classes incognito to experience the class first hand and to have the opportunity to casually listen to the other female participants' concerns. Once specific issues have been identified, the Castle can and should address them. Instructors need to change their teaching style if it is off putting and / or non-productive. Likewise, a good teacher can set the tone of a classroom -- shutting down inappropriate behavior and facilitating good interaction.

I would think this would be quite EMBARRASSING,not to mention financially troubling if this statistic got some coverage. If women knew that they were wasting their money taking a class where it was "unavoidable" that they would drop out, then the Magic 1 classes would decrease by nearly half (at least according to you). Knowing how important this issue is to you,and should be to all of us, I again ask, what is the Castle doing to change this?
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Nov 5, 2018 11:26AM)
It would be nice to see someone like danaruns teach the course (think she is from there?). She knows the issues, knows her magic, and better than debating with men about old races and circular tracks, how's about trying to make changes for the better where she could also inspire by example and help show the way, and change such numbers.

Loads of women admirably now stepping to the plate in this political year to try and make real difference and pull progress better forward despite the old obstacles and challenges. Just sayin'.
Message: Posted by: Jacene (Nov 7, 2018 08:15PM)
I very rarely come here on the cafť, but stopped by quick tonight.
This thread caught my attention. I will admit, I never read EVERYTHING! But, I did skim through and found some thoughts very interesting!
I thought I would add my 2 cents and answer the initial question, since I would fall into the category of most of what has been talked about!
Hereís the thingÖ. My dad is a magician, I grew up with magic. As a kid, I thought I would love to follow in his footsteps. I went to several magic meetings and performed a little bit. BUT, like the other girls in the statistics above Ė I decided it wasnít for me.
Why?
Because I was a young girl at a meeting with a bunch of Ďold mení. (okay, maybe they werenít ALL Ďold mení, but regardless of age, they were men. And most WERE old! LOL)
AnywayÖI had nothing in common with them. I felt strange, being a little girl at these meetings with NO OTHER WOMEN! It was weird! So, I stopped going!
Howíd I get back in?
I grew up! I quit caring about guys or girls Ė I just did my thing! I got to an age when being around a bunch of guys didn't bother me anymore. I
It might strange for a man to read this. Something so minor as, ďwhy would a girl care if sheís the only girl there?Ē You wouldnít get it unless you were THE ONLY LITTLE GIRL THERE!
What 10 year old girl would like to hang out in a room with a bunch of men between the ages of 30-75? (give or take). Not me, that was for sure!
Anyway, I donít want anyone to take this post the wrong way, but I wanted to share my view.
I know what's it's like to be that girl who feels out of place!
Had there even been ONE other girl there - I would have felt better about being there! :)
Message: Posted by: Aus (Dec 15, 2018 08:10PM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2018, Mb217 wrote:
It would be nice to see someone like danaruns teach the course (think she is from there?). She knows the issues, knows her magic, and better than debating with men about old races and circular tracks, how's about trying to make changes for the better where she could also inspire by example and help show the way, and change such numbers.

Loads of women admirably now stepping to the plate in this political year to try and make a real difference and pull progress better forward despite the old obstacles and challenges. Just sayin'. [/quote]

The inference that is being made here is that inequality equals inequity, therefore, something needs to be done about it. I don't agree with that assessment at all at least in the current climate. That argument has a lot more traction in the boys club days of centuries past where women were banned from participating but those barriers to women's inclusion have largely been removed.

Not only are there morphological differences between men and women there are psychological as well which could easily account for the lack of women participating in magic.

One of the largest psychological differences between men and women is that men are more interested in things on average and women are more interested in people. In fact, it's this difference which is a large determent of occupational choice. Women choose jobs like Child-Care Providers, Home Health Care Providers, Veterinarians, Social Services Workers etc well men gravitate to professions like Carpenters and Joiners, Motor Mechanics, Electricians, Truck Drivers and Construction Managers.

Now it stands to reason that if an occupational choice can be determined in large part for the proclivity of personal preference, I don't see why the same reasoning doesn't apply to personal interests and hobbies as it does for occupations.

Is it a possibility that women on average are just not interested in magic as a whole?

Aristotle was quoted in saying "the worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal" and I couldn't agree more. While humans have this idea of equality, in the real world, equality is rare. Have you ever found two rocks that were the same size? Same weight? Same composition? Not all that common, is it? While itís in our best nature to try to make people equal, they are all unique and, by definition, unequal.

Meritocracy based structures all start from an equal starting point, but some will work harder, some will work smarter, others will find shortcuts, or just get lucky all of which has a direct effect on the level of progression each individual has. Now I don't for a minute discount the possibility of some sort of sexism being a contributing factor to this, but correlation doesn't equal causation. There are many reasons why inequality exists with inequity being only one of them.

Magically

Aus
Message: Posted by: Tim Snyder (Dec 15, 2018 09:33PM)
[quote]On Dec 15, 2018, Aus wrote:

Is it a possibility that women on average are just not interested in magic as a whole?
[/quote]

No, it is not. My daughter got me into magic. A Magic Castle member posted above that nearly half the people taking the entry level magic class at the Castle are women. Most of the women who have posted on this topic here say the issue is not that women have no interest in magic, but are made to feel uncomfortable by the magic community. Which is why I asked the Magic Castle member if she knows whether the Castle is taking steps towards improving the experience of women who take their classes.
Message: Posted by: Aus (Dec 16, 2018 03:17AM)
[quote]On Dec 15, 2018, Tim Snyder wrote:
[quote]On Dec 15, 2018, Aus wrote:

Is it a possibility that women on average are just not interested in magic as a whole?
[/quote]

No, it is not. My daughter got me into magic. A Magic Castle member posted above that nearly half the people taking the entry-level magic class at the Castle are women. Most of the women who have posted on this topic here say the issue is not that women have no interest in magic, but are made to feel uncomfortable by the magic community. Which is why I asked the Magic Castle member if she knows whether the Castle is taking steps towards improving the experience of women who take their classes. [/quote]

Your examples are anecdotal at best Tim, and using danaruns "Fun Fact" of women making up half a magic class at the Magic Castle as an indicator of interest is intellectually dishonest. People motivations for doing things are as varied as to why people stop doing things and since danarun has offered no further insight into the reasoning behind their subsequent enrollment and premature departure from the course it's speculative at best and hardly the proof that you claim it to be.

So what possible reason could there be for why women are enrolling and dropping out of a magic class as they seem to be in this case?

Sometimes, students sign up for a course thinking theyíre getting one thing, only to discover after it starts that itís something else entirely. They might have expected more practical knowledge, and feel disappointed in the theory. Or they might have expected the course to talk about one aspect of a subject, only to have that subject glossed over.

Like many other reasons, good communication about course content can address this problem.

Low motivation is another possible reason.

Low motivation isnít the same as laziness. There are many reasons a student could lose motivation, some of which weíve already touched upon. A demanding workload can leave a student feeling discouraged, or the lack of hands-on instruction could make the student feel like no oneís paying attention to their presence on the course and feel their not getting the tuition they feel they need.

Fixing issues such as the pacing and structure of the course can fix low motivation at the same time. Or you could try sending an email to check in on estranged students who havenít had any activity from in a few days or up the number of teachers offering hands-on instruction. Sometimes a small prompt can encourage students to re-engage.

Now those sound like plausible reasons in my view as to why a student might join a course and subsequently drop out and none of them have anything to do with sexism or being uncomfortable with the magic community, but as I said before until danarun clarifies the situation with sustainable facts on the matter, to use it as proof of anything is speculative at best and therefore questionable.

Now let's talk about the topic of the magic community making women uncomfortable and whether that necessarily means that the magic community is to blame by default.

Recently talking to a female friend in the UK who picked up a copy of DIVA magazine, something she reads occasionally when the mood takes her or she spots someone on the cover she particularly has an interest in she found an interview by Lea DeLaria, an openly gay actress, comedian and Jazz musician most well-known for her role in Orange Is The New Black, was featured on the cover. A quote from her interview read ĎIf I offended you, you needed ití. Lea explained that whenever she caused offence, for simply being who she was, she was able to recognise that it had nothing to do with her and everything to do with the person who was offended. This gave her a whole new insight into taking offence. She was happy to cause offence in order to highlight the judgemental, ill-informed and at times downright discriminatory views some individuals had. She knew that if people took offence with her, it was down to their internal beliefs, and nothing to do with her.

If we need a more relevant example of that Tim lets take a look at Jacene post on this very thread and ask yourself which man out of the many that were triple her age at that club meeting was responsible for making a ten year old girl uncomfortable at her first attendance of a magic club? Was it their intent to do so? Did they even realise that they had an effect on her in that way? My guess is it wasn't. It is not our business or our fault if we make others feel uncomfortable due to their own misguided thoughts, beliefs or judgements. That is on them. And itís up to them to figure out whatever has got them triggered.

To culminate this to a single point, being uncomfortable is not a reliable metric to diagnose the source of an issue and unless we advocate for the level of diagnoses you seem to push for in your responce to danaruns magic class post I doubt we ever will.

Magically

Aus
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Dec 16, 2018 02:17PM)
Aus,

First, understand where I am coming from. I am a woman, and I am a magician. I am on the board of directors of the Women Magicians Association. I am on the Women in Magic Committee for the Academy of Magical Arts. I have been a student at Magic University at the Magic Castle, and I have taught students in Magic University at the Magic Castle. I have written articles about women in magic. I have read dissertations on the historical and modern roles of women in magic. I have interviewed women magicians, I know lots of women magicians, and I have spoken to a large number of women magicians from all over the world about what it means to be a woman and a magician. I tell you all that to tell you this:

Your two posts above are illustrative of the problem for women in magic. And it is startling how you have managed to ignore and dismiss the contributions of women in this thread, and when you should be listening, you are instead mansplaining. You are dismissing anecdotal evidence, and then you are using anecdotal evidence. And, of course, you make tremendous assumptions, you (maddenigly) stereotype women, and you speak in the "fish bowl syndrome" of your male perspective.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to debunk the many painful and incorrect assertions in your posts, nor given what you have written do I believe it would do any good. Suffice it to say that it is a multi-pronged problem, and you can find several of those prongs described in this thread, were you inclined to listen, which you are not.

Again, you might begin with the fact that in Asia over 50% of magicians are women. This fact alone would pique the interest of a good faith listener.

[quote]
If we need a more relevant example of that Tim lets take a look at Jacene post on this very thread and ask yourself which man out of the many that were triple her age at that club meeting was responsible for making a ten year old girl uncomfortable at her first attendance of a magic club? Was it their intent to do so? Did they even realise that they had an effect on her in that way? My guess is it wasn't. It is not our business or our fault if we make others feel uncomfortable due to their own misguided thoughts, beliefs or judgements. That is on them. And itís up to them to figure out whatever has got them triggered. [/quote]

This quote of yours is a prime example of you leaping from the dock, missing the boat entirely, landing in the water, and declaring yourself captain of the ship. Good grief, man, that's some Olympic level mental gymnastics. Take a hundred paces back and perhaps you can see the forest rather than that one misshapen tree you are intent on studying. (Sorry for mixing those metaphors there!) While Jacene is describing cause and effect, you are looking for blame and ways to deflect it. And by doing so, you are missing the whole world.

Perhaps if one man had truly befriended her, Perhaps if she had a female role model. Perhaps if there were other women there. Perhaps if she had seen or even heard of one other female magician. Perhaps if they went out of their way to make her feel included. Perhaps if they didn't assume things about her in the way you are making assumptions here. Perhaps if magic wasn't so much designed for men's bodies and men's wardrobes. Perhaps if someone made room for a girl and her approach, even though they were different from the general experience. Perhaps a million other things, none of which involve "blame" and "offense/offence." But none of that happened. And that should be instructive for you, though it clearly was not.

I won't even address the irony of you calling the take from my "fun fact" intellectually dishonest.
Message: Posted by: Aus (Dec 18, 2018 12:27AM)
[quote]On Oct 7, 2018, danaruns wrote:

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome. [/quote]

Well, danarun, if you don't want men mansplaining things to you maybe you shouldn't have open invitations giving men the opportunity, just a thought. Yes, I have assumed a lot but isn't that what speculating is? I don't think I was trying to hide that fact.

[quote]I am a woman, and I am a magician. I am on the board of directors of the Women Magicians Association. I am on the Women in Magic Committee for the Academy of Magical Arts. I have been a student at Magic University at the Magic Castle, and I have taught students in Magic University at the Magic Castle. I have written articles about women in magic. I have read dissertations on the historical and modern roles of women in magic. I have interviewed women, magicians, I know lots of women magicians, and I have spoken to a large number of women magicians from all over the world about what it means to be a woman and a magician.[/quote]

Well since you are in a position of prestige and influence within the women's magic community and well versed in women's issues what investigative measures have you taken to identify the reasons of the high drop out rate of women in this magic class. Have you implemented any similar investigation measures to those suggested by Tim Snyder or have you just thrown this titbit of information out there with nothing more than hearsay?

Let me very clear on my defensiveness on this issue and where I'm coming from. You have aligned yourself with the feminist movement and I have great respect for the achievements of first and second wave feminism but serious disliking for the third. As a concept, I don't have a problem with women fighting for equality where there is a legitimate case to campaign for it however I do have misgivings on how it is implemented if feminism is foundational doctrine your pushing this issue with. Third wave feminism I believe is nothing more the PC authoritarianism masquerading as women's rights wanting nothing more than blaming men for all ills that have befallen women, that's what the patriarchy isn't it? The collective assumption that societies structures as founded on a tyrannical male patriarchy to the subjugation of women. With feminist terminology like mansplaining, I'm surprised I've haven't been told to sit in the corner quietly to contemplate my toxic masculinity well minimising my manspreading. All these wonderful inclusive terms courtesy of feminism lending themselves nicely to equality and bipartisanship between the sexes that feminism professes to advocate for, and you wonder why I'm deflective. Before we get into the tit for tat argument I don't condone similar language towards women from men either.

I also have concerns how far this rabbit hole goes, associated baggage usually isn't that far away. Melies in another thread called Sexism and magic (redux) is moonlighting issues like seeing magic distributors say that they will no longer produce advertising copy for its effects in which *every* spectator is referred to as "she," and *every* magician is referred to as "he". Are he and she verboten words now? Watching how this sort of thing unfolds in wider society where the pronoun politics predominates to the point where context and intent mean nothing and peoples fragile sensibilities and misguided interpretations are everything thus creating a dangerous climate of snowflakes, compelled speech and verboten words.

If at the end of the day your motivations are altruistic in nature and not derivative of the Authoritarian gender politics I suspect this is, you have my support. If on the other hand if this what you're going for then don't consider me your ally. I don't want this poisonous crap in my art.

Magically

Aus
Message: Posted by: diamondjack (Mar 24, 2019 10:29AM)
For everyone here discussing the sexy part of being a female magician, I am posting a video from another thread that showcases a young, female magician that is definately NOT going for "sexy", and she is one of my favourite preformers of magic, male or female.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyOaDh5USI
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Mar 24, 2019 02:12PM)
The Sacred Riana! Also a favorite of mine!

Question ladies:

Have I offended you here?

Doug
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 10, 2019 07:52AM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2019, Dougini wrote:
Question ladies:

Have I offended you here?

Doug [/quote]

By the lack of response, I assume not! Thank you! :)

Doug