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Topic: Truth-Tellers and Liars
Message: Posted by: entity (Mar 7, 2008 08:46AM)
Anyone remember where this routine is written up?

Came to my mind late last night for some reason, and I'd like to look it up. I may have a new presentational angle for it.

- entity
Message: Posted by: SM41 (Mar 7, 2008 09:02AM)
I think it is P Subtitles. Not sure
Message: Posted by: sgrossberg (Mar 7, 2008 09:08AM)
Banacek's "Psychological Subtleties" - Ring of Truth
Message: Posted by: LLL (Mar 7, 2008 09:23AM)
Also on the PSI dvd

mescalito
Message: Posted by: entity (Mar 7, 2008 10:22AM)
Many thanks.

Banachek it is.

- entity
Message: Posted by: gabelson (Mar 7, 2008 01:09PM)
Hey Entity-

It is on the PSI disc, and in Banachek's book, "Psychological Subtleties", as well. It is also in "Theater of the Mind", (part one), and then there are a few manuscripts on taking this effect to a higher level: Patrick Redford's version, "Prevaricator", the new "BOHT" by Bryn Reynolds, and "The Thought Channel" by Jerome Finley. They are all wonderful, and will provide lots of ideas.
Message: Posted by: Ba Ba Booey (Mar 7, 2008 01:19PM)
There is also a write-up of Banachek's performance of it in the current issue of MUM (March 08).
Message: Posted by: Harm (Mar 7, 2008 01:46PM)
Or look in "The Book of Haunted Magick"
Message: Posted by: entity (Mar 7, 2008 03:51PM)
Thanks to all. I did know the routine, just couldn't remember which Banachek item held the source, based on the old logic puzzle.

Good to see a few here recognized the "Ring of Truth" in my previous post.

- entity
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Mar 7, 2008 11:40PM)
There is a version in an old David Bowie movie :)
Here
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/
Message: Posted by: mindhunter (Mar 17, 2008 07:58AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-07 14:09, gabelson wrote:
then there are a few manuscripts on taking this effect to a higher level: Patrick Redford's version, "Prevaricator", the new "BOHT" by Bryn Reynolds, and "The Thought Channel" by Jerome Finley. They are all wonderful, and will provide lots of ideas.
[/quote]

Thanks for the mention, Gabe.
BOHT will be included in my soon-to-be released manuscript entitled
THE SAFWAN PAPERS. I am awaiting some information from the printers and am in contact with Steve for a banner ad here.

I'm happy that the material has been receiving some great feedback from some people that I highly respect. Here are a couple of blurbs I have been offered for
THE SAFWAN PAPERS:

BANACHEK: "Regarding THE SAFWAN PAPERS: You know how to take an idea or effect, make it your own and add a wonderful twist to them. Wonderful thinking and inspirational. Keep up the great work; we need more original thinkers like you in our ranks. Well done."

CHUCK HICKOK: ""The Safwan Papers has several very clever ideas for the serious mentalist. The emphasis is on language ... not props. Your Lucky Nite could be sold as a separate routine."


RICHARD OSTERLIND: "Bryn Reynolds is one of the most exciting creators I have come across in many years. Whenever he sends me something it is top notch and is usually an item I add to my repertoire. THE SAFWAN PAPERS is the latest batch of material to peak my interests. Developed in Iraq, for his fellow soldiers, the material is dynamite! (Or C-4 given the situation!) There are great routines, gadgets and gimmicks that will become standard items in your act and just plain, good ole straight-thinking behind powerful effects! One is already slated for my next set of DVDís. I highly - very highly - recommend this book!"

Thanks again,
Bryn
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2008 08:14AM)
Actually, Banachek also credits Charles Cameron as the first to get the concept into print with Angels and Demons (I think) - I'll go look it up when I get the chance but it is in one of Chuck's cool little bizarre magick books where the participants play a demon and an angel and do the logic puzzle... (never underestiamte the bizarre magi ;))
Message: Posted by: markthorold (Mar 17, 2008 09:28AM)
Angels & Devils, Satanic Sorcery C.Cameron, reading it only yesterday.
Regards Mark
Message: Posted by: A.G. (Mar 17, 2008 09:38AM)
I vividly remember the logic puzzle told to me by my father when I was 7 ( 30 years ago) not sure of its origin, but pops said he learned it in University.
this was it:

Two guards in front of 2 doors....

One guard is a truth teller, one a liar.

Behind one door is Heaven, the other Hell.

It's not clear which guard stands in front of which door...

You may ask [b]one[/b] guard [b]one[/b] question, then open one door and walk through.


That was it !
I will post the exact solution if your interested.


All The best Always
Andrew Gerard
Message: Posted by: Turk (Mar 17, 2008 09:45AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-17 10:38, G.t.H. wrote:

***

You may ask [b]one[/b] guard [b]one[/b] question, then open one door and walk through.


That was it !
I will post the exact solution if your interested.


All The best Always
Andrew Gerard
[/quote]
Andrew,

I'd be interested in seeing the solution-either her or via a PM.

Thanks so much,

Mike
Message: Posted by: Turk (Mar 17, 2008 12:40PM)
OOPS! Should have typed "either [i]here[/i] or via a PM." Hopefully, not a Freudian Slip; Psychoanalysis is too expensive. (grin)
Message: Posted by: CAROLINI (Mar 17, 2008 03:42PM)
Andrew, Your solution would be interesting if it is different from Ring of Truth.
Thanks for the offer.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Mar 17, 2008 03:58PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-08 00:40, Slim King wrote:
There is a version in an old David Bowie movie :)
Here
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/
[/quote]
Is it different than this one ... other than the door identity angle?
Message: Posted by: Patrick Redford (Mar 17, 2008 04:08PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-17 10:38, G.t.H. wrote:
I vividly remember the logic puzzle told to me by my father when I was 7 ( 30 years ago) not sure of its origin, but pops said he learned it in University.
this was it:

Two guards in front of 2 doors....

One guard is a truth teller, one a liar.

Behind one door is Heaven, the other Hell.

It's not clear which guard stands in front of which door...

You may ask [b]one[/b] guard [b]one[/b] question, then open one door and walk through.


That was it !
I will post the exact solution if your interested.


All The best Always
Andrew Gerard
[/quote]

This has always been one of my favorites. You simply ask either guard what the other will answer when asked what door he's standing in front of. His answer will be whatever door he's standing in front of. If anyone's interested in the exact logic behind this I'd be happy to post. Thanks Gerard for bringing back a memory of one of my favorite Logic Puzzles. Hope all is well.

-Patrick
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Mar 17, 2008 04:13PM)
More please!!!!!!!
I was taught this one in Sunday School .... Must have been 40 years ago I guess :)
Message: Posted by: A.G. (Mar 17, 2008 04:26PM)
The exact solution is this.

the question poses one against the other, meaning the answer will lead you the opposite door.
door 1 = Hell
door 2 = Heaven
The question is this
" If You were the other guard, which door would you tell me leads to Heaven ?"

The truth teller would answer :
" I would tell you door 1 "( which would be hell, as the liar would lie, and so must the truth teller in this case since he is put in place of the liar ! )
IN THIS CASE YOU TAKE THE OTHER DOOR = Heaven

The Liar would answer :

"I would tell you door 1 " ( which again would be hell, as the truth teller would say door 2, but the liar would lie ! )
IN THIS CASE YOU WOULD TAKE THE OTHER DOOR


The opposition technique is great, but unfortunetly very confusing.. even when you know.

Here is a nice riddle for fun:


A Man walks into a hospital to visit a patient and the nurse asks "Are you a relative?"
The man answers with the following statement:

" Brothers and sisters I have none, BUT this mans Father, is MY Fathers son ! "

so who is he going to see and what is his relationship to this patient ??



Have fun..

AG
Message: Posted by: jekyllandhyde (Mar 17, 2008 04:46PM)
Everyone seems to be missing Gerald Kosky's version called To Tell the Truth from the Vol 1 No 6 1978 issue of Apocalypse. I believe this predates every source mentioned yet.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Mar 17, 2008 04:51PM)
For the logic puzzle alone, with no mentalism, see the wonderful book [i]The Lady or the Tiger[/i] by Raymond Smullyan. Smullan gives the whole idea of truthtellers and liars a a fascinating and fun treatment.

John
Message: Posted by: Looch (Mar 17, 2008 05:30PM)
For information Marc Paul has an absolutely incredible Truth teller / Liar premise effect, entitled True Lies. From what I understand, it has not yet been published, but Im sure if enough people pull on his sleeve he may release it. It really is a great piece of thinking!
Message: Posted by: mindhunter (Mar 17, 2008 08:31PM)
Muhahaha...lol

Thanks, Looch..
Message: Posted by: Bertrand Thornley (Mar 17, 2008 08:42PM)
He's visiting his own son- I think
Message: Posted by: A.G. (Mar 17, 2008 08:55PM)
Yes that's correct...

best AG
Message: Posted by: Jay Are (Mar 17, 2008 08:56PM)
Here's one...


turn the two words NEW DOOR into one word...
Message: Posted by: ThoughtThief (Mar 17, 2008 11:53PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-17 21:56, Jay Are wrote:
Here's one...


turn the two words NEW DOOR into one word...
[/quote]

Okay: By moving the first or second "o" in the second word to precede the "n" in the first word, then moving the "w" from the end of the first word and making it the first letter of the second word, then moving the "d" from the start of the second word to the end of the second word, you now have "ONE WORD." Yes?
Message: Posted by: markthorold (Mar 18, 2008 03:06AM)
A simple method/solution to the truthteller v liar ,that pre-dates all of the above lies within the pages of the Pheonix magazine.Ill have to dig out the exact title/page ref though.
Regards Mark
Message: Posted by: ELima (Mar 18, 2008 03:39AM)
Mark
There is one called Liars! in Phoenix no 90 from 1945 by Tommy Dowd. It's a different logic though. You need a p**k.
Endre
Message: Posted by: markthorold (Mar 18, 2008 08:13AM)
Hi ,there is another , but yes you are right, Ill check it out and get back with it. Regards Mark
Message: Posted by: Paul (Mar 18, 2008 09:12AM)
An early version of this type of thing as a mental effect is Gerald Kosky's "To Lie or, Tell The Truth?" in the book "The Magic of Gerald Kosky" (p.131).

Whilst I don't have it to check, there may also be something in Jack Yates' "Clue -And Other Mysteries".

Paul.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Mar 18, 2008 02:15PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-17 18:30, looch wrote:
For information Marc Paul has an absolutely incredible Truth teller / Liar premise effect, entitled True Lies. From what I understand, it has not yet been published, but Im sure if enough people pull on his sleeve he may release it. It really is a great piece of thinking!
[/quote]

I absolutely look forward to this.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Mar 18, 2008 02:27PM)
You guys would like this section. My daughter and I spend some fun moments here during the summers :)
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=101&9606
Message: Posted by: mindhunter (Mar 19, 2008 07:46PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 15:15, Ringo wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-17 18:30, looch wrote:
For information Marc Paul has an absolutely incredible Truth teller / Liar premise effect, entitled True Lies. From what I understand, it has not yet been published, but Im sure if enough people pull on his sleeve he may release it. It really is a great piece of thinking!
[/quote]

Where did you hear about this, Ringo?
muhahahah!

...and on a topic VERY much related, but I'll call it a side note, my book THE SAFWAN PAPERS will be released after this weekend...(hopefully both eBook AND printed format...but for certain in printed.) My BOHT routine is included...it is not a logic puzzle. It is...something different.

A great premise that we all love to explore, isn't it...? Despite it seemingly being only a 50/50.
Message: Posted by: Ringo (Mar 20, 2008 02:32AM)
[quote]

muhahahah!


[/quote]

Oh...oh... Somebody's doing the evil laugh...
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Mar 20, 2008 07:22AM)
This is what your REALLY need...

http://honestconman.blogspot.com/2008/03/one-person-kinesiology-tool-lie.html
Message: Posted by: TheAstonishingLarry (Mar 20, 2008 08:25AM)
I've always been a big fan of the "liars and truth-tellers" logic puzzles (or the "knights and naves" as coined by Raymond Smullyan). The two door/path puzzle is a classic. But am I to understand that the puzzle itself is being presented as a bit of mentalism? Or is the puzzle only the premise and there's more to it?

Where can I find BOHT? I didn't see it on his website.
Message: Posted by: mindhunter (Mar 20, 2008 08:52AM)
Hi Larry..

BOHT is a methodology/routine I am releasing in my book THE SAFWAN PAPERS. It is not a logic puzzle, but fits in this genre of effect.

I'll be posting in a seperate thread when this is ready to go...hopefully in a day or so.

Thanks for the interest.
Bryn
Message: Posted by: TheAstonishingLarry (Mar 20, 2008 04:04PM)
Bryn -

I look forward to reading your book. Thanks.

Lot's of great receommendations on this thread. Just when I finally got rid of my magic bug, I pick up the mentalism bug.

Regards,
Larry
Message: Posted by: mindhunter (Mar 20, 2008 04:38PM)
Thanks, Larry.

It truly is one of those bugs that you will be GLAD bit you!

Bryn
Message: Posted by: mindhunter (Mar 20, 2008 04:39PM)
Thanks, Larry.

It truly is one of those bugs that you will be GLAD bit you!

Bryn
Message: Posted by: jhoff (Aug 31, 2016 01:26PM)
There is actually a small family of effects around the Liars Paradox these days:
- Ring of Truth by Banachek (PSI Series, DVD 2),
- True Lies by Marc Paul (Penguin Lecture),
- Imbalanced by Atlas Brookings (The Intrepid Rogue's Manual of Deception), and the most recent addition:
- Murder Mystery by Andreas Dante: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/7386

All of those methods are very different. They all have their pros and cons and are suited for slightly different settings: 2-people versus groups, propless versus props and many other distinguishing factors. Best to have all of them in your mind readin tool box. In case one of them fails you can immediatly pull the next one and amaze people.

Jason.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 31, 2016 01:31PM)
Are you Andreas Dante?

8 year old thread ressurected...
Message: Posted by: Marc O (Aug 31, 2016 03:15PM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2016, IAIN wrote:
Are you Andreas Dante?

8 year old thread ressurected... [/quote]

Well at least he used the search function....
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Aug 31, 2016 07:50PM)
[quote]
[quote]

muhahahah!


[/quote]

[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Aug 31, 2016 11:02PM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2016, Marc O wrote:
[quote]On Aug 31, 2016, IAIN wrote:
Are you Andreas Dante?

8 year old thread ressurected... [/quote]

Well at least he used the search function.... [/quote]

[img]http://t.qkme.me/3rc2q5.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: IMAGINACIAN (Sep 1, 2016 01:07AM)
So ?