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Topic: The Myth of the Argu-mentalist
Message: Posted by: Jay Are (Mar 7, 2008 10:58PM)
Hey everyone...

I am noting a disturbing trend. The conversations in the Penny forum and Inner Thoughts seem to be among the most confrontational.

Why is this?

Do we have bigger ego's than our magical counterparts? What makes us want to do nothing but bicker and fight?

There has to be an answer...

What do you guys ( and girls ) think?

Message: Posted by: Slim King (Mar 7, 2008 11:01PM)
Are you kidding ... [b]no way!!![/b] :angrypirate:
Message: Posted by: Jay Are (Mar 7, 2008 11:04PM)
It baffles me...

No idea why we can't get along!
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 7, 2008 11:24PM)
Some believe therrr can beeee onnnllyy one!


(Answer, reality, solution, premise, etc.)...

I don't hold with that belief, however...
Message: Posted by: Jay Are (Mar 7, 2008 11:26PM)

Having a little fun on youtube tonight?

Message: Posted by: Father Photius (Mar 7, 2008 11:31PM)
I don't post here a lot, but do read this forum all the time. One thing I've noticed is that most here have strong personalities. I have a theory that to be a mentalist you need to have a strong personality. After all what you are doing is pretty bold and takes a good bit of hutzpa. After all you have to convince an audience that you have these unique mental abilities and that you are in control, and are doing it with very little in the way of props. It is all a matter of personality.
With so many strong personalities, you are bound to have some conflict. Kind of like we Greeks say about each other, where there are two Greeks you have three opinions. I think among mentalist there is a lot of that sort of thing. It does come across sometimes as argument and discord, but at the same time, most seem to get along. I think because they understand the whole strong personality requirement of being a good mentalist.
I often find the arguments quite entertaining, and even insightful.
Message: Posted by: kriskraze (Mar 7, 2008 11:41PM)
[quote]It baffles me...

No idea why we can't get along![/quote]

Are you suffering from amnesia? Are you unable to recall your posts of the last few days?
Message: Posted by: Jay Are (Mar 7, 2008 11:42PM)

care to explain?

I am talking about bullying here in this thread...

this was inspired by another thread hat spiraled ( as so many do ) into an all out war...
Message: Posted by: Silvertongue (Mar 8, 2008 12:40AM)
I think because a lot concentrate on influencing the minds of others they lose control of their own.

It can be quiet annoying at times, especially when its dragged on for pages and pages...

Unless its funny that is, but most of the time its quiet personal and childish.
Message: Posted by: Piers (Mar 8, 2008 01:03AM)
Some call it passion, some call it argument or debate,
but many simply glance, note, ignore and move on...

Message: Posted by: Floyd Collins (Mar 8, 2008 06:04AM)
I have to agree with Photius, I think it takes a very different sort to do what we do. We are in most cases very much in control and we like it that way. I am one who did magic for many years and switched to mentalism some years ago for two reasons.
One I was advised by one of our local great performers that my style and outgoing personality was in line more with mentalism and two because I feel it gives me more of a creative spark. But it is not for everyone for sure.

With that said, I have also seen a change in the way I view Magic and performing. I think mostly because I know more about the inner workings of magic and creating magic with just words and very little props. Once one reaches this level of understanding of the inner workings of magic, some become very opinionated with the world around them.

As some may think from my post here, we come off as having egos and thus cause those who don’t understand our methodology to read more into what we are conveying then what is there. This I feel has sparked a lot of the arguments you see here on the Mentalist side of the Café.
Message: Posted by: magicusb (Mar 8, 2008 06:11AM)
One of the reasons for this is that several that post on the mentalism threads do not belong there. They are not interested in furthering the art, but are skeptics with their own mini egos who only post to debunk and challenge. Keep track and you will see it is mostly the same 5 or 6 people. They look to hijack the topic, and change the intent of the originator of the thread. Again and again with almost always similar comments.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 8, 2008 06:43AM)
I think it's fun!

people often reveal a lot about themselves on here, whether it be by what they say; but just as much as what they do not say...

I find it fascinating...
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Mar 8, 2008 06:50AM)
Jay Are: Good Question.
Dick: Good answer.

I have a theory;

Magician: In the beginning stages, usually early High School, has the urge to perform but can't sing or dance so buys props.

Mentalists: In the beginning stages, a breakoff wing of the Magician group who either can't afford or are too cheap to buy props.

My theory is not necessarily serious.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Mar 8, 2008 08:30AM)
You gotta have b@lls, sometimes you gotta flash 'em! I love all you guys, even when I am dragging you to the floor to poke yer eyes out!


Message: Posted by: magicusb (Mar 8, 2008 09:08AM)
Like the current post on force bags. First ten or so posts are on topic and then it becomes a prize fight, and the topic is lost and so will end. A shame because it defeats the purpose of the originators thread.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 8, 2008 09:15AM)
Why doesn't someone set up a "beef" thread - post your problems with others on the one single thread...might even be fun...

for the vegetarians amongst us - maybe a quorn option could be offered...
Message: Posted by: John C (Mar 8, 2008 09:18AM)
On 2008-03-08 00:04, Jay Are wrote:
It baffles me...

No idea why we can't get along!
We could simply sit in a circle, play guitar and sing cumbya?

Message: Posted by: Mindtrap (Mar 8, 2008 10:02AM)
...yeah but [i]then[/i] we get to sling those guitars...at each other, right? ...right?

Dull end of debates, fine, back-biting remarks fine, can choose to ignore it or accept the penny for your thoughts. But... someone has a good idea/valid questions/good product/difficulties in certain areas, etc 1 topic 10 replies. Someone then mentions frauds/nlp/exposure, or any of the other usual inane hotbuttons...12 more topics...each of 33 pages of replies to drown it out.

Fraudulent parapsychical skeptical NLP-practioning suggestive exposer of myself.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Mar 8, 2008 10:54AM)
I thought this thread was going to be all about me and how I am really a nice guy or something. ;)

I agree with the strong personality statement. I also only come to pennys to talk nonsense. My reason for that is talked about in the thread below.

Message: Posted by: Mick Ayres (Mar 8, 2008 11:23AM)
It is simply a question of maturity.

Message: Posted by: Yannou (Mar 9, 2008 09:21AM)
I'd like to point out the logo of the Magic Café. It says 'Magicians helping magicians'.
Arguing is not helping. Discussions are very welcome of course, if the purpose is an exchange of ideas and opinions, not to 'win' the argument.
For comparison, please try to remember that time (or the times) that you had to work with a spectator who had that competitive attitude, one who feels your performance is not entertainment but a battle that he has to 'win' (which usually ruins your performance, just like it ruins a good discussion). I'm sure we've all been there. Remember how that felt? Not good, right? And now remember how it felt when you had a nice, cooperative spectator. I know which of the two I like best and which I want from posting here. Do you?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 9, 2008 09:31AM)
Boredom lack of good threads. The feeling that everything has been flogged to death and nothing new to discuss. I think that's the basis of the threads going the way they have been going.

A few years back it wasn't as bad. But then the threads were a lot more informative and interesting.
Message: Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Mar 9, 2008 12:20PM)
It's all about the Ego. Mentalists seem to tend to have strong opinions on what and how and when and with what. They've approached the point in their act wherin the whole thing works. They've justified, thought, opined, practiced, read, researched...until it all jells. Their opinion on how they reached their personal perfection must, by nature, be inflicted upon any other Mentalist who differs in approach or opinion. (Others guide and teach, these egos inflict and dictate)

Then, toss in that batch of non-performing theorists ("I would never tear up a piece of paper, why tear it up? Why not just read the minds, It's not justified...." "Why use a paperclip?" etc) whose opinions [b]must[/b] be stated each opportunity...and then immediately defended.

Mix in 40 kids with 3 years experience...

and a half-dozen grumpy old grizzlies

...and you got the makings of a great thread that is sure to get yanked.


Other opinions may differ.
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Mar 9, 2008 01:08PM)
There are many that cannot help but make it personal. I also think that many people read too much into posts and topics or perhaps not enough. The written word cannot convey a message as well as a one to one conversation (audio/visual/kinesthetic experience). I also believe that we all have differing opinions of what and what is not acceptable in mentalism. Mentalism brushes very close to belief systems and as we all know differing belief systems are what makes the world such a violent planet. Personally, at 43yrs I am happy to express my views honestly. I've been in the magic business since I was 17 and doing kids parties while I was still at school. If I tread on a few toes, tough. One thing though, it's never personal, life's too short and in the end, it's not worth the effort. Generally I get along with most people. Thank God, LOL
Message: Posted by: Paul h. (Mar 9, 2008 08:42PM)
The veteran performers and pros have a duanting task should they choose to post here and help others, I think. Everyone wants to have the best routines and secrets without the sweat and tears that they have put in to this art. Not knowing who is authentic to wanting to improve the art and who is just looking for the latest and greatest gets tiring to see and deal with day after day, you have to admit.

I try my best to ask for help and direction (to learn where to study) from people and offer as much help as I can. I'm not a pro, but I have always aspired to be there. Without anyone near me to be a mentor, I, like many, do what we can to learn from the forums and try to create from the mass of advertising that is very difficult to see through when starting out.

I think we all need a reality check once in a while. Perhaps we could all benefit from some self-reflection and look at the submit key a little longer before we press it. I know I will do this.

In thoughts,

Paul h.