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Topic: Walter Scott's second deal
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 15, 2008 05:08PM)
Guys check out my take on Walter Scott's strike second deal. All comments welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IsdfXb0Aq4
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Mar 15, 2008 05:25PM)
Beautiful work.

But:

Move your thumb.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 15, 2008 05:40PM)
Thanx Jeff!

With this deal though, you are not supposed to move your thumb at all.
Message: Posted by: magician8 (Mar 15, 2008 05:46PM)
Indeed very nice, It would be great if we could see you sailing the card, but anyway it was really good and the brief was minimum,


8
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 15, 2008 06:09PM)
Thank you 8,

I'll upload another one with sailing shortly.
Message: Posted by: DonEngland (Mar 15, 2008 06:14PM)
This is the frozen
thumb second, an expostulates Martin Nash. I thought
it looked good. it is possible to do with 50% less brief, just practice
every morning for one hour. In a couple years you will see a great improvement.
Forget the sail and up tempo a half beat. Much time spent, good work.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 15, 2008 06:23PM)
This belongs in another thread, but I thought I'd put it here for the gambling sleights enthusiasts to see it.

I have written a tutorial based on Walter Scottís strike second deal in an eBook form. The eBook is geared towards beginners and it is a detailed explanation of this type of second dealing.

The eBook is 17 pages long with clear instructions accompanied by high quality coloured photos. I cover the basics of the fine brief and I've included several practice drills to improve your overall progress in learning the deal.

Visit my webpage at http://www.gamblingsleights.com where you will find information on how to order the eBook online. The eBook is immediately downloadable from the website.

If you have any queries please PM me or email me at: yiannis@gamblingsleights.com


Thanks!

Yiannis
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 15, 2008 06:24PM)
Looks cool Yiannis and its great to see some of your work. My inexpert advice might be hold the deck parallel to the table top, when using it rather than demonstrating it to the camera. Which you probably do in any event, so I donít why I mentioned it, other than I canít think of what else to say. :)
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 15, 2008 06:26PM)
Thank you Tommy :) I'll do that in the sailing video.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 15, 2008 06:29PM)
Right sorry I have not seen it, I will have a look now.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 15, 2008 06:31PM)
Don,

thanx for the comment. The only thing I can practice each morning for an hour is extra sleeping time ;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 15, 2008 06:46PM)
Misread your last post sorry. Anyway it gave me an excuse to go site seeing and the site is cool I must say.
Message: Posted by: jjsanvert (Mar 16, 2008 04:37AM)
Very good!
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 16, 2008 08:49AM)
Thank you Jean Jacques!

I really hope you like the eBook as well.
Message: Posted by: papermechanic (Mar 16, 2008 11:12AM)
Nice work yiannis. thanks for posting the video.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 16, 2008 01:53PM)
Thanx!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Mar 16, 2008 04:10PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-15 19:24, tommy wrote:
Looks cool Yiannis and its great to see some of your work. My inexpert advice might be hold the deck parallel to the table top, when using it rather than demonstrating it to the camera. Which you probably do in any event, so I donít why I mentioned it, other than I canít think of what else to say. :)
[/quote]

I agree with Tommy but that was excellent, keep up the good work. I'm proud of you.

Just A Note: If you're going to use your video as a reference to your notes then video tape the sail but technically speaking in a game, it's not necessary,

Again excellent work.


Respectfully,

Doc

P.S. Yiannis what I would like to see if you ever get the time is to video tape yourself flashing cards and remembering them in and out of order or whatever you do best; I just wanna see it done.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 16, 2008 05:23PM)
Doc,

thank you very much for your comments. I'll make a video sailing the cards as suggested in a few days.

As far as the memory technique goes, I'm currenty working on a detailed guide about the memory system I use using the techniques of Dominic o'Brien and Ben Pridmore. This system is exclusive to card handlers and very easy to learn. I'll make the video with the release of my notes.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Mar 16, 2008 06:01PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-16 18:23, Yiannis wrote:
As far as the memory technique goes, I'm currenty working on a detailed guide about the memory system I use using the techniques of Dominic o'Brien and Ben Pridmore. This system is exclusive to card handlers and very easy to learn. I'll make the video with the release of my notes.
[/quote]

That's the kind of stuff I'd be ready to buy.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Mar 16, 2008 08:11PM)
Me too.

Doc
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 16, 2008 08:57PM)
I think for any one that wants to master Walter Scottís Second Deal this e-book is really helpful. It takes you through the technique step by step, with great little tips along way. Itís got some two dozen crystal clear colour photographs of everything, which are really life like. It goes into more than just the techniqueÖ I canít go into that really without exposing but it covers everything nicely. I will look though it again latter and see if I can find something to moan about and let you know later. I would like pick a flaw or two with it actually just to show I am not biased. Its no secret I am friend of Yiannis, just knowing him here at the cafť that is. It is cool anyway and thanks Yiannis.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 16, 2008 09:32PM)
Tommy,

thank you very much!
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 16, 2008 11:19PM)
That's a beautiful deal Yiannis........ beautiful.

Question for you?.......I went to purchase your manuscript and wasn't informed anywhere I could see what methods of payment you accepted prior to asking for a fair bit of personal information.

I hesitate to give information such as what you're asking for to ANYBODY via the internet .
If you're taking PayPal do you even need that kind of info?

Without knowing up front what you take for payment, I might get all the way through and find out you only take Diners Club cards!

I wonder if you should be looking for folks actual home addresses and such for a gambling manuscript?

Anyway, let me know Yiannis, (others may have a similar concern and not be voicing it) I WANT to get your manuscript, but I'm not into giving out that much personal information.

(hey Don, is that a "Paradox" t-shirt you've got on in your avatar?......I just picked your book up and am amazed at the thinking contained within......it's got some stuff that's not only below the radar, but not seen outside the book!)
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 17, 2008 12:13AM)
Hi Silverking,

thank you for the comment and your interest in the eBook.

Your questions were raised just on time! I have received PM's about the payment method and how to download the eBook and I was about to write the following.

The shopping cart software that I've got on the website requires the billing information by default. You DO NOT have to provide them! This software is only temporarily, while I'm looking for something better and simpler for the customer.

Just fill in the "Customer Information" fields to create an account (to give you access to the members section, where you can find video tutorials that accompany the eBook), and in the "Bill to Information" fields just put N/A. After you send the registration, login with your account information and complete the checkout.

The only payment method I accept at the moment is paypal. I think you can make a credit card payment through paypal as well. When the order is received, I'll send you the eBook to the email address you have provided.

If you can't get through to paypal via my website, just send me a message to yiannis@gamblingsleights.com to sort things out for you.

I apologize for the incovenience and please PM me if you have any problems. I'll be more than happy to help you.
Message: Posted by: jjsanvert (Mar 17, 2008 03:25AM)
The eBook is very good, very clear and very precise. It gives a good tip on how minimise the brief with the most difficult strike second. It gives you also some exercices to practice the deal - the first time I see this in a description. Obviously a job done by somebody who is a real expert on this subject. Even the layman's full grip is described in conjonction with the deal, which is probably the most deceptive way to handle the deck during any false deal (I know that Persi Diaconis was using this grip, so you know it is good). Very good informations indeed.
Message: Posted by: ghostpianist (Mar 17, 2008 07:56AM)
The book came right on time; just finished reading the Phamtoms book with lots of question mark about the deal. Have placed my order just now; cheers.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 17, 2008 08:37AM)
Jean Jacques,

thank you very much! I'm glad you liked it.


Ghostpianist,
thanx for the order.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 17, 2008 11:01AM)
Sent you an email Yiannis.
Registration complete.
PayPal funds transfered.

BUT........

I didn't get an email with an ID# on it, so I'm temporarily not able to download the manuscript.

If the ID# IS on an email, and I just don't see it.....then I'm wearing the dunce cap :)
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 17, 2008 11:47AM)
Yiannis took care of my order in double time!

I'm looking forward to giving this some serious study.
Right off the top the book appears as a totally professional product.

(And even more tempting are the three other e-books he's got in the works for later this year!)
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 17, 2008 11:48AM)
Silverking,

thank you for your order.

There is apparently a problem with the download ID in the shopping cart software. No worries though, I just sent the eBook to your email address.

Cheers!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Mar 17, 2008 06:11PM)
Yiannis I'm not only proud of you, I'm thankful as well. You know what I mean.

Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 17, 2008 08:26PM)
My pleasure Doc!
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 18, 2008 11:35AM)
Yiannis has produced a professional quality product with his "Second Dealing, In Seconds" manuscript.

One of the things that makes this manuscript different from others is that the author has chosen to focus on the Walter Scott strike second deal, which is unique in a second deal.
Although there's a lot of material out there on strike second deals in general, the Scott strike second hasn't gotten a lot of attention to date.

Yiannis has changed all that with this manuscript.

The obvious visual element of the Scott second is the "still thumb" on the left hand. In the context of the Scott strike second deal, this "still thumb" helps to create the illusion of a fair deal.

The Scott second isn't a perfect false deal, as no second deal ever is.
Yiannis has highlighted some of the shortcomings of this deal, and then goes on to explain clearly how to work around or better conceal them.

The manuscript itself is extremely well laid out, with pictures that are crystal clear not only in the quality of the photos themselves, but also in the clear presentation of the deal broken down into its individual components.
Yiannis also has a writing style that, combined with his obvious knowledge of false deals, lets you know that you're not reading the writings of somebody who knows not of what they speak, but rather the exact opposite.
This manuscript is a piece of "real work" for those who seek hard to find information not offered in magazines and popular books.

This manuscript is also geared not only for those with experience in false deals, but also for beginners who may not have dealt a second in their lives.
Yiannis has also provided a video library on his website that offers detailed examples of the various elements of the Scott strike second he talks about in the manuscript. These videos are a huge help to those who may not have yet had exposure to other information on second dealing.

Highly Recommended.

(BTW, 5.99 Pounds Sterling is around $12.00, so this is a bargain as well.)
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Mar 18, 2008 11:41AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 12:35, silverking wrote:

The obvious visual element of the Scott second is the "still thumb" on the left hand.

[/quote]

Since I never tried to learn Scott's second, I didn't pick up on this, which is why it seemed so noticeable in Yiannis's video.

As I said: I think his work is beautiful. But do y'all really think that a motionless thumb gives the illusion of a fair deal?

Last night we were playing a card game with a guest, and I watched carefully how everyone was dealing. EVERYONE uses their thumbs. I don't recall ever seeing anyone not use their thumb.

Please don't misunderstand: I'm really not trying to start a fight. I just find a motionless thumb to be...well...weird looking.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Mar 18, 2008 12:10PM)
I totally agree with you, Jeff. Most people do move the thumb of the deck hand while dealing. To those of us who are familiar with the moves, this sticks out like a... well, a sore thumb.

At the same time, however, it is hardly ever the issue of a dead thumb that will tip anything to a lay person.

It has been my experience that most of the minute hairs, such as this, are split by those who have gone far beyond the surface of card manipulation and would never really be noticed by 98% of card players; even those who knew what a second deal or a bottom deal are.

It is most often a hiccup in game play that wakes the dead. If the scam is overworked, or abused, or if an unnatural chain of bets/calls/raises occurs, then those who would normally sleep themselves into the welfare line, sit straight up in bed.

Of course, that's not to say that botching a shift or a bottom deal is acceptable card table practice. My point is that it is easy for many to get caught up in the minutae of sleight-of-hand and whether or not a dead thumb will get heat, etc... But, in the end, these things are almost never an issue if the scam is being worked properly.

CC
Message: Posted by: Jeremy Brown (Mar 18, 2008 12:34PM)
Good words cc.
Question: How does the ebook differ from the explanation in "Phantom"?

Jeremy
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 18, 2008 12:38PM)
An interesting aside is that NOT moving the thumb is a lot harder than moving it if you've been dealing seconds for any amount of time with a "moving left thumb" style of second deal.......your muscle memory wants to move that left thumb.

It's actually quite a challenge to learn this after dealing seconds for a couple of decades with a moving thumb.

As for deceptiveness, the "still thumb" is most definitely associated with the Scott second deal, and not wanting to tip any of the material Yiannis has included in his manuscript it should suffice to say that the "still thumb" is what makes THIS deal deceptive when you follow the instructions as laid out in the manuscript.

Needless to say, the left thumb does in fact move in this deal (it obviously HAS to), but for the purposes of the Scott deal the purpose of the movement is the exact opposite of a traditional strike second with full thumb movement, in that all movement of the left thumb is to be concealed.

Jeff, watching Yiannis's videos should demonstrate that the Scott second deal, as offered as expertly as it is by Yiannis, will continue to be extremely deceptive to laymen.

Jeremy, the manuscript is loaded with pictures designed to actually learn the deal. I've got both "Phantom" and "Phantoms" (the original shorter book) and although descriptions are in the books, the actual process of learning (especially if you're new to second dealing) is far easier with Yiannis's e-book.
Message: Posted by: Jeremy Brown (Mar 18, 2008 12:44PM)
Thank you silverking.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Mar 18, 2008 12:46PM)
Besides the "moving thumb", I never really understood why a tiny brief was advised by by W. Scott. The tinier the brief, the greater the chance you'll miss your 2nd during a game, however good and expert you can be. And while playing cards, you can't concentrate as hard on your 2nd as when doing demo stuff. Therefore it's my guess you'd pretty much have to look after a "practical" 2nd deal, not a "look how tiny is my brief" move. That's not to say that a "practical" 2nd needs less practice.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Mar 18, 2008 01:07PM)
H2o,

You are exactly right in what you just said. Dead on.

The size of the brief is another one of those hairs that are split by those manipulators that practice, practice, practice. It's quite a natural process, really...

For the artist, it is never enough to simply be able to pull one card out from under another. The deal must look, and in some cases even sound, flawless from every angle imaginable. This goal of perfection seemingly shared by all of these prestidigitators is one that, theoretically, will never be reached but it does yield some very beautiful card work.

For the cheat, the goal is not perfection but compensation. Therefore, most don't really bother with "taking the moves to the next level" if they can get the money and call it a day.

And it is a very excellent point that was made about this second deal, and the whole tiny brief thing. Past a certain point, it is antithetical to the cheats mission statement.

For the record, and before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, this post is not knocking anyone or anything out there whatsoever. I'm really not in the mood for another one of those stupid verbal jousting sessions.

CC
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 18, 2008 01:54PM)
C.C. and h2o, I hear you both loud and clear. It's an interesting perspective on the value of something like a small brief in real world table situations.

With the standard left hand movement of a typical full table deal, a microscopic brief could be seen to not help a great deal, as all will be concealed by the motion of the left hand.

It's apparent too though, that the micro-brief will certainly continue to impress at the strike second demo.
As C.C. points out above, that desire to impress has resulted in some beautiful card work......easily appreciated for what it is even if you don't agree with what it does or how it does it :)
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 18, 2008 02:15PM)
Silveking,

thank you very much!!

On the second deal now,

if you have to concentrate during a game on your second deal (or during a magic trick presentation), it means that your muscle memory is not developed enough to facilitate flawless execution. It doesn't matter what type of second deal you are employing, whether is Walter Scott's type or a "regular" strike second.

You know that you have mastered a physical or mental activity, when you don't have to think about the it while you are executing it. When the process become automated, your physiology will change, your muscles will relax and that is the moment when the movement becomes "natural" to you. And it will appear natural to others, because you do not strain will executing it.

The Walter Scott's second deal is a very difficult deal to learn, in my opinion the most difficult to master, BUT once your neurophysiology has adapted is as easy as any other type. When it becomes "natural" and you are comfortable dealing with only a tiny brief, you don't have to worry about missing a second or catching a hanger. Unless of course the dealing conditions are not favorable (sticky deck, very dry fingers, etc...). Even for those conditions there are ways around the problems, without changing your deal.

Which type of second deal is more deceptive during a game or a magic trick? It doesn't really matter, as long as the move gets the money (for gambling) or as long as it creates a nice illusion (for magic). My personal opinion is that you can make any second deal look deceptive and use it cleverly enough to get the money.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Mar 18, 2008 03:03PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 15:15, Yiannis wrote:

You know that you have mastered a physical or mental activity, when you don't have to think about the it while you are executing it. When the process become automated, your physiology will change, your muscles will relax and that is the moment when the movement becomes "natural" to you. And it will appear natural to others, because you do not strain will executing it.
[/quote]

Yiannis I think you've made a really good and important point here. Recently I've been pointed out about the importance of breathing while practicing. Especially while riffle stacking, but I guess that can be extended to any kind of moves. You have to feel completely relaxed, without any tension to make the move smoother and natural.
When describing a move, books or dvds all tend to focus on detailing the intrinsic mechanics but few will give you advices on the importance of a correct "mental state" and breathing. And that greatly helps making the transition from the "bedroom practice" to the stressful real life conditions time.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 18, 2008 03:30PM)
When dealing Ghostly seconds I take advantage of reflexes:

My thumb does not move by itself, it is moved, by the other thumb that crosses it.
Message: Posted by: LOUIEL (Mar 18, 2008 03:56PM)
Good work Yiannis, very smooth and beautiful.

LOUIE/L
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 18, 2008 04:30PM)
Thanx Louie!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Mar 18, 2008 05:00PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 16:03, h2o wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 15:15, Yiannis wrote:

You know that you have mastered a physical or mental activity, when you don't have to think about the it while you are executing it. When the process become automated, your physiology will change, your muscles will relax and that is the moment when the movement becomes "natural" to you. And it will appear natural to others, because you do not strain will executing it.
[/quote]

Yiannis I think you've made a really good and important point here. Recently I've been pointed out about the importance of breathing while practicing. Especially while riffle stacking, but I guess that can be extended to any kind of moves. You have to feel completely relaxed, without any tension to make the move smoother and natural.
When describing a move, books or dvds all tend to focus on detailing the intrinsic mechanics but few will give you advices on the importance of a correct "mental state" and breathing. And that greatly helps making the transition from the "bedroom practice" to the stressful real life conditions time.
[/quote]

So you mean it's a bad idea to hold your breath for 10 minutes or more when shuffling?
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Mar 18, 2008 05:06PM)
[quote]

So you mean it's a bad idea to hold your breath for 10 minutes or more when shuffling?
[/quote]

Not when you're doing it under water.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 18, 2008 05:08PM)
I would recommend KEM cards for under water activity.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Mar 18, 2008 05:15PM)
Lol
I mean to help you relax, try to breath out at the critical moments. For example with a riffle stacking shuffle, if you breath out when you're riffling to hold the cards, you get a smoother action. Don't you feel that when you're breating in, you're more tense?
Guess you've never paid attention to that, huh?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Mar 18, 2008 05:20PM)
Physical tension isn't necessarily a bad thing. Letting out a good fart is a great turn for ringing in a cooler.
Message: Posted by: h2o (Mar 18, 2008 05:24PM)
That's a pretty good idea. You should suggest it to Steve Forte for his next book on poker cheating protection tips: "Be suspicious of any player who farts".
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 18, 2008 05:35PM)
H2O,

breathing is a key to relaxation. Regulating your breathing greatly enhances the learning process of any physical activity. Specifically to cards, when you are learning a new skill (e.g a false deal) the shoulder muscles particularly have the tendency to tense up. (A nice demonstration of relaxed riffle stacking can be seen in the work of Mr. Z).

By calming your breathing and paying attention to the muscle group that is tensed (in order to make it relax), you can decrease your learning curve. And most importantly, you teach your muscle to relax when learning a similar new activity.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Mar 18, 2008 05:41PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 18:24, h2o wrote:
That's a pretty good idea. You should suggest it to Steve Forte for his next book on poker cheating protection tips: "Be suspicious of any player who farts".
[/quote]

You know if my memory's correct I remember reading in Stephen Minch's biography of Eddie Fields that there were two brothers who hustled poker who'd fart every time they had to switch their hole card.

And not to derail the topic of the thread--very nice seconds Yiannis.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Mar 18, 2008 05:43PM)
Thank you Mr.Z!
Message: Posted by: h2o (Mar 18, 2008 05:57PM)
Thanks Yiannis for your clarification about muscles relaxation.

Hey Mr Z, that's what I like about your posts, there's always a sense of wise and reality even in the most screwball ones! lol
Message: Posted by: magician8 (Mar 21, 2008 07:51AM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-18 12:35, silverking wrote:

The obvious visual element of the Scott second is the "still thumb" on the left hand. In the context of the Scott strike second deal, this "still thumb" helps to create the illusion of a fair deal.


[/quote]

I always thought the Scott deal was used with a sort of moveable thumb,



8
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 21, 2008 08:17AM)
You can move the thumb over the card to create the illusion that card is being moved if you like, add little touches so to speak. No one is stopping you doing whatever you like. Just master the the standard thing first to give yourself a firm foundation and after you can play around and around with it to see what you like. This Scott deal does not suit everyone since a dry thumb is a drawback. Some prefer a big brief and use another sort of second. There are many methods but I like this one, its close to the one I use which is the Ghostly second.
Message: Posted by: magician8 (Mar 21, 2008 08:41AM)
I use the Scott deal but with a slightly different method, more like marlo's no touch theory,


8
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 21, 2008 09:32AM)
Well if you do that from the Master Grip (Scotts Grip) there is not much differnt than Scott Second deal except for the thumb posistion. In marlo's no touch theory the thumb position stops one touching the top card on the take. Which is good and bad cos that thumb position is bad when it comes to dealing the top card as it gets in the way little. All things have good and bad points. One fix's one problem which in turn creates anther and on it goes. Which ever you choose there is a problem and you have live with it.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (May 5, 2008 10:24AM)
Yiannis,
I bought this e book last night and have receipts from both your site and paypal but no download! I've sent you e mail and PM but had no reply from anyone. I hope this can be taken care of quickly!

Mick
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (May 5, 2008 10:17PM)
Hi Mike,

I sent you the eBook earlier today. I hope you like it :) If you have any problems, PM me again.

Cheers!
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (May 7, 2008 01:17PM)
Yiannis,
As I replied in PM, I did in fact get you eBook and it loaded just fine, THANK YOU!
This is my first go at dealing seconds and I find the instruction clear and concise and the method is working for me.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 7, 2008 03:19PM)
I've used this deal for about 30 years now, and, of course, one of the obvious adjustments is to make the top look just like the second. It doesn't really change the fact that the thumb doesn't move, but at least you don't see a change in thumb action ( or inaction ).

Very nice work, by the way, Yiannis.
Message: Posted by: silverking (May 7, 2008 03:55PM)
Hey Yiannis, what's the timeline on your future releases?

This Second Deal manuscript setting the example, I'm definitely looking forward to reading them.
Message: Posted by: luvisi (May 8, 2008 07:38PM)
[quote]
On 2008-03-15 18:46, magician8 wrote:
Indeed very nice, It would be great if we could see you sailing the card, but anyway it was really good and the brief was minimum,
[/quote]

The problem with showing a sail in a video is that the camera needs to zoom out to see it, both because the hands move more and because you might want to show where the cards land. This makes the hands even smaller on video, where they're already greatly reduced in size, which makes it harder to see the most important part of the action. If you want to say "Hay, I bet you can't see anything!" then a video with a sail is great. If you want to say "Hay, check out the finer points of this deal." then dealing into a pile makes it easier for your electronic audience to see what you want them to see.

From this video, I can identify the dealing grip, the method that he uses for the take, the grip he takes the card in, and his timing. Since he is trying to point out that he is dealing Scott's seconds, these are all important things to show. Someone who's read Phantom or Phantoms will recognize these. From a wide shot showing him dealing cards out into hands, few if any of these details would be visible.

Oh, and nice deal, Yiannis. Nice video, too.

Andru
Message: Posted by: Clock (May 9, 2008 02:59AM)
I haven't gotten a chance to read through this entire thread thoroughly, but am I the only one who thinks that dealing a no brief second deal is great for a demo but unnecessary at the card table?

I hate to be a stick in the mud, but I have seen some of the most deceptive strike seconds with an inch of brief! They key is timing the action just right; I could swear the cards were coming off the top.

Don't get me wrong, it's a very pretty deal Yiannis... but there is absolutely no illusion that the card is coming from the top. All I see is a dead card... and both layman I showed called it.

Best,

Grant
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (May 9, 2008 03:26AM)
[quote]
On 2008-05-09 03:59, Clock wrote:
I hate to be a stick in the mud
[/quote]

Well, you can join me. I wanted to buy this for no other reason than to put some money into the community, if y'all know what I mean. But I don't do seconds, have no desire to do seconds, and if I did do seconds I'd probably decide to move my thumb. So I decided to save my money. (Of course, I still might buy it eventually.)

Yiannis, you have my respect. I just don't see myself ever putting the work into learning this.

I agree with Clock in thinking that this is primarily a demo move. Does anyone here actually MOVE with seconds, and if you do, do you do Scott's second? And for goodness' sake, don't answer such a question in public. A PM will do.

I think one of the most interesting things about the whole Scott/Gazzo story is that this can be KILLER if you master it; but it's a specialty that takes dedication to master one very specific sub-category of card word. It may not be as ethereal as a middle deal, but it remains something for specialists who see the value in it. I don't.

(Of course, if anyone pays attention to me--and I hope they don't--they will have already figured out that I think the actual moves are the least important aspect of cheating.)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (May 9, 2008 04:04AM)
My issue with tiny brief seconds has always been just as Clock mentioned--no visible movement of the top card.

With a bigger brief and a nice retraction of the top card you get a great illusion of the top card being pushed over and dealt.
Message: Posted by: h2o (May 9, 2008 04:14AM)
Anyway, W. Scott's phantom of the card table legend, that's just an other magician pipe dream, just as Kennedy's center deal.
Message: Posted by: ghostpianist (May 9, 2008 05:02AM)
[quote]
On 2008-05-07 16:55, silverking wrote:
Hey Yiannis, what's the timeline on your future releases?

This Second Deal manuscript setting the example, I'm definitely looking forward to reading them.
[/quote]

I have exactly the same thing in mind.
Message: Posted by: Clock (May 9, 2008 05:41AM)
[quote]
On 2008-05-09 05:04, Mr. Z wrote:

With a bigger brief and a nice retraction of the top card you get a great illusion of the top card being pushed over and dealt.
[/quote]

:thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: silverking (May 9, 2008 09:56AM)
I don't think the point was trying to get everybody to deal the Scott second......but in order to comment on it in a way that contributes to the conversation maybe a guy should know how it's dealt......or even be able to deal it.

Personally, I still deal the second I've always dealt.
I do find the combination of a small brief AND a moving card to be the most deceptive, so I was glad to read this.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (May 9, 2008 10:53AM)
Nicholas, Andru, Grant, thank you for your comments!

At the card table, if you are suspected of dealing dissonestly, the best second deal (whatever brief you are using) won't help you disguise the false movement of taking the second card.

With this deal, there is really no illusion of taking the top card, IF you know what to look for AND you stare directly above the deck AND you deal in slow-average motion (like I do in the clip).

Doc (who uses this kind of deal for cheating) has pointed out this issue by saying that you should not have anyone standing behind you and staring directly on the deck while you're dealing.

The Walter Scott's second deal is a very technical move and it's not suited for everyone. It's a great move for demonstrations and a reputation maker for the technically oriented magicians.

As Andru very eloquently wrote, the clip intended to show all the technical aspects of the Walter Scott's second deal. And for those who want to learn this deal, the eBook describes all these aspects in great detail.

Those who want to use it at the card table and have an issue with the illusion being produced with a tiny brief, if you master this deal it's very easy to adjust the brief any way you like.

Silverking, ghostpianist, the eBook on the Bottom dealing will be ready mid June. Greek dealing is scheduled to come out in August and the Center dealing a bit later on October. Around the same time, I will also publish my method in card memorization for cheating purposes.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (May 9, 2008 12:24PM)
[quote]
I will also publish my method in card memorization for cheating purposes.
[/quote]

Now you've got my full attention....