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Topic: Att card sharks and gamblers…
Message: Posted by: Mr Amazing (Mar 5, 2002 08:58AM)
Ok, I'll not only be grateful, but also very impressed if you solve this one:

I’m looking for an effective switch of one card for another to later (or even during the switch) enable a peek of the cards identity. No deck/or packet involved and no fancy-schmancy thing (i.e a Snap Chage is not what I’m looking for). I hope for something as wonderful and ‘economical’ as a Shuttle Pass (coins).

So far so easy... but here are the restrictions

The specs should only be aware of one card, and they have just handled the card themselves so ‘double cards’ is probably not a good idea. Additionally the card should be out of sight as little as possible.

Basically I seemingly just; pick up or reposition the card on e.g a table or I transfer it from one hand to the other or I correct the position of the card while it’s in my hand or on the table or I “fiddle around” (a [i]little[/i]) with the card …or something similarly natural.

We're talking close up. As little
"environmental dependency" as possible is preferred (e.g no table, and surrounded), but any idea is interesting.

I imagine something with a gamblers cop or a tenkai could be involved, but I just can’t make it work smoothly (especially since I’m not allowed to visibly turn over the card which obviously would reveal it’s identity).

Does anyone have any ideas or know where I can find something like this? I’d be very grateful.

I know the problem is very much restricted, but I’m still hoping…

Thank you

Message: Posted by: Lonnie Dilan (Mar 5, 2002 02:52PM)
How about the Pivot change? I forgot the guys name... I think it's Ross Bertrams... but I could be wrong.

It's in the Genii Issue with Earl Nelson, he uses it in one of his routines. I love the Pivot change and have been using it for years to change cards.... cause you can show them their card while you are turning it over and then you are placing a new card on the table or wherever.. it takes a bit of work and I'm not going to explain the mechanincs cause it will take forever.... but I'm sure you can learn it from the Genii issue.

What about a top change? One handed top change? Curry turnover? Uhhhhh, if your on a table, how about a Eidetic switch?

I'm sure they guys in here have tons of ideas too....

What exactly are you doing?
Message: Posted by: cardguy (Mar 5, 2002 03:16PM)
It sounds like you need a really good top change. The only other way I can think of you switching the card so cleanly involves lapping. There is a one such switch in the Hollingworth book on page 150. It is not easy but it seems like it would do the trick and you only use one hand. He also has another switch involving a deep lateral palm with no lapping. Both versions are not easy but if you really want to learn one of them then you'll probably have a veritable tool. Good luck in your search. :bg:
Message: Posted by: Jim Morton (Mar 5, 2002 03:57PM)
Hmmmm....., the problem I see here is that if you are not supposed to know the identity of the card, then touching it only raises suspicions for the audience. Why are you touching the card? You better have a pretty good reason. Just to "fiddle" with it, ain't gonna cut it.

Now, as for methods of switching, if you have the deck in your hands the top change is your best bet, as Frank suggested. If you don't have the deck in your hands, you can muck in a palmed card. In the casinos, the mucking is done when the card sharp glimpses at the card, but since you don't want the audience to think you've seen the card, the traditional method would need some modification. You might look at the final card add-on in Larry Jennings Open Travelers (a great, great routine), in The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings. This might be just the ticket. Again, normally Larry Jennings flipped the card up to viewing position, but you'd have to omit that move. Lapping might also work, if you are sitting down.

Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Mar 5, 2002 06:42PM)
I'm thinking marked cards or a stacked deck could accomplish this without the need for a switch. Other than that, a force, peek or glimpse could work as well. If you're talking about absolutely NEEDING a switch (and consider carefully whether that is the case), there are many in the literature, particularly if seated (Ouellet Switch, Johnsson's IBGTH Switch, Marlo's propelled lapping switch, and Imp pass, etc.).
Message: Posted by: Mr Amazing (Mar 6, 2002 01:31PM)
Lonnie, Cardguy, Jim and Scott - thanks a lot for your answers. I'll start investigating.

Message: Posted by: b ferguson (Mar 6, 2002 01:47PM)
You could also try mucking. It's kinda hard to explain but it is really, really good. I saw Darwin Ortiz do it on TV to show how gamblers cheat in casinos. It's pretty hard though. If you don't know what it is, I'll try my best to explain, so let me know!

Hope this helps

~ B r a n d o n
Message: Posted by: AndiGladwin (Mar 25, 2002 03:04PM)
On 2002-03-05 15:52, Lonnie Dilan wrote:
how about the Pivot change. I forgot the guys name... I think it's Ross Bertrams... but I could be wrong.

Yup, it's Ross Bertram's move from Page 132 of Dai Vernon's Ultimate Secrets of Card Magic (Louis Ganson, 1967).

Message: Posted by: Loz (Mar 25, 2002 06:40PM)
Lennert Green teaches a move using lateral (steranko's) palm on vol. 1 or 2 of his tapes where a card that's been stolen from the deck secretly is switched with a spec's card during an apparent transfer of a card from one hand to the other.
Message: Posted by: Mystero (Mar 25, 2002 10:34PM)
Gene Maze's unit grip on his tape has some nice work on switching a card but his method is aimed at ringing in a known card for a randomly chosen tabled card in the act of turning it over. It's a beautiful piece of magic but it will take some work. Some real miracles are possible with this unit grip. Highly recommended.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Hudecsek (Mar 25, 2002 11:52PM)
I use a move I read about in Harry Loraynes appocalypse, he calls it the ultimate change (not ultra move!)
It appears as if you push the card (or cards) closer to them. (With the hand that holds the deck. I also use that technique insted of the curry turnover because there is no get-ready and it looks much cleaner.
No magician friend I have shown has caught it, because they look for the curry turnover.

But, as I said, the same technique can be used without the turnover.
(if interested send private mail for details.)

Thomas :bwink:
Message: Posted by: Garrett Nelson (Mar 27, 2002 12:15PM)
Hand mucking is not something specific, rather a whole method (like shuffling...there are many ways to do it).

Which card's identity do you need to know? The one on the table, or the one you switched in?

I assure you there are many table switches that will do this, but mostly they are pretty demanding.

One that would work (and is well known among mechanics and a few magicians) is where you basically sweep your right hand across the card and appear to just move it a little to the left. It appears the card stays in sight, but it has been switched.
Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Mar 28, 2002 01:24AM)
I'm gonna agree with Garrett on this one. The switch he just described is, going by what was issued as the challenge going to be your best bet. Take the time to practice it however because it's not exactly the easiest thing to do.

Take care,
Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: Paul (Mar 28, 2002 04:31AM)

"As little "environmental dependency" as possible is preferred (e.g. no table, and surrounded), but any idea is interesting".

Most suggestions seem to have been seated at the table solutions.

Perhaps if we knew more about the "effect." From what we've been given it appears like you tell him what his selection is (why else the peek?) and then he finds his card has changed.

There must be more to the "effect" than that or you are going the long way around to accomplish it. Describe the effect you are wanting to accomplish in more detail please.

If it's just a "move" hunt, don't call me, I'll call you :)
Paul Hallas
Message: Posted by: MattSedlak (Mar 28, 2002 01:57PM)
I agree that a hand muck would be the best choice. There are many different hand mucks, most with the card to be switched in, in a Flat Gambler's Palm. There is one described in Card Mastery by Mickey McDougal. I would also reccomend Marlo's Card Switches. I think, though I am not sure, that Simon Lovell and Darwin Ortiz teach a few on some of their videos. It is not a difficult move by any means, and with some practice, there are some mucks that are angle proof, and would, in fact, work in a casino, given that it is a two deck Blackjack game.
Message: Posted by: Tilt (Mar 28, 2002 02:10PM)
It is not a difficult move by any means, and with some practice, there are some mucks that are angle proof, and would, in fact, work in a casino, given that it is a two deck Blackjack game.

Doing an invisible and natural hand muck is not simple by any means.
Why would it have to be a two deck blackjack game? Couldn't you just cop a card out of play to use later? I assume that anyone with enough skill to muck cards in a casino could hold out cards before the actual muck.
Message: Posted by: MattSedlak (Mar 28, 2002 06:11PM)
First, while it is not simple it is by no means the most difficult move in a gamblers arsenal. While magicians practice many moves, a gambler would only practice a few and attain much more proficiency at that move than we would. The reason I said a two deck game is because in most casinos the only games where you are actually allowed to touch the cards is in the two deck games. Otherwise both cards are dealt to you face up. This then obviously makes a hand muck useless. If you weren't in a casino then you could be using as many decks as you would like, however, in playing Blackjack most people always use one deck and on occasion use two.
Message: Posted by: Mark Ennis (Mar 29, 2002 09:01AM)
Speaking of hand mucking, Darwin Ortiz performs this Chemin de Fer switch that looks incredible, even if you are a foot away.
Message: Posted by: Spydur (Mar 29, 2002 09:48AM)
What I think you should take a look at is "Expert at the Card Table." Erdnase was the MAN! There are all kind of move located within those pages. That book is the bible of card magic and gambling technique. I find something new in there everytime I read it. Not to mention the fact that you can take a basic premise and alter it to fit your need.

READ Erdnase! Nuf Said.

Message: Posted by: Tilt (Mar 29, 2002 01:28PM)
I agree that everyone interested in cards should read Erdnase. However, you should also study the Steve Forte videos. Mr. Forte has no equals with a deck of cards or a set (or 2) of dice. No magic tricks here, just the real work for the real world.
Matt, even most 2, 4 and 6 deck games are dealt face up in most casinos now. And again, I agree that hand mucking is not the hardest move that gamblers use. However, to do it smoothly under fire takes considerabe practice.

Message: Posted by: MattSedlak (Mar 29, 2002 05:44PM)

All gamblers moves take considerable practice. And yes some two deck games deal them both face up but it is really your only chance to actually do a muck. Which of course you should never do.
Message: Posted by: Munskin (Mar 30, 2002 04:51AM)
Derren Brown has a sleight called the Figaro transfer in his book, 'Pure Effect' and also on his video, 'Devils Picturebook', that would accomplish this card switch.