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Topic: Indian Cups and Balls Video
Message: Posted by: Experimentalist (Jul 22, 2008 01:32PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZMKTgTiYaU


A fascinating thing about this one to me is the quasi-ritualistic touches. Posing prayerfully with the wand, ringing the bell over the cups as though he were cleansing them, etc. I would be interested to see how a lay audience would react to this kind of presentation.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jul 22, 2008 02:07PM)
Some interesting things going on... Looks like the same cups that Shankar Jr. was selling. I liked much of it, the bell and some of the movements.
Message: Posted by: Levity (Jul 31, 2008 09:15PM)
Very entertaining...thanks for posting.

G
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Nov 2, 2009 07:19PM)
This video is very informative for me, but so long to watch...

I'm getting interested in this style of cups and balls. However, I do not find it comfortable sitting in that position. Is it lotus? Anyway, sitting like that ain't for me. However, I would like to perform this trick someday.

The sleights are hard, man. I've tried off and on for half the day. While shopping this afternoon, I was in the thrift store and ran across 6 little matching bowls for $1.29. Of course, I picked 'em right up. They are stainless steel and have, uh, feet, is it?

Man, classic palming these balls is difficult!

Playing with these little bowls is interesting. I find it hard not to resort to using regular C&Bs techniques and sleights.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 2, 2009 11:49PM)
This fellow competed at the IBM convention in Nashville. He is a very pleasant fellow. Most of the people didn't "get" his routine at all. But, it was very entertaining and educational for me.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 4, 2009 05:30AM)
This guy is a killer of many best tricks. I know him personally. He does not invest time to practice tricks. I give him 0.5 marks out of 10. Here is another video, this magician uses a few moves but best moves from original Indian cups and balls routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv7YNGwtCE8&feature=related
Another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9DPHJV0X8o&feature=related
Here is a far better video. He tries to justify the original routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTuX_uvm-Qw
I give 4 marks out of 10.
The best routine of Indian cups and balls is in the name of late Indian magician Vazhakkunnam Namboothiri.
Best performer alive is Magician Nanu PP. Here is newspaper coverage on Nanu: http://www.hinduonnet.com/mp/2004/07/29/stories/2004072901780200.htm

I have been researching this topic for last 10 years. I perform it decently. I have studied it from more than 20 magicians. I will release a video on this topic. Looking for good producer like L&L.

There are some moves performed by Vazhakkunnam, which stands above Tommy Wonder's final load methods (in my opinion). (Don't ask YouTube links.)

Sitting is the Pathmasana pose of Yoga. It can be mastered in 3 weeks time.

Sam Dalal sells this cups and balls.

Looking forward to further discussion.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 4, 2009 11:33AM)
Is 'Cheppum Panthum' the Hindi term for cups and balls, or is it some other language, such as Bengali?

Interesting to see the amount of Western technique that has been absorbed into the routine of the fellow who performs the cups and balls on "the Great Indian Magic Show."

BTW, some of us will NEVER be able to master the Pathmasana pose -- not in three week's or three years' time. Trust me on this!

Thanks for posting this material.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 4, 2009 07:14PM)
Hi,
'Cheppum Panthum' is not Hindi. It's Draveedian language, which include all south Indian Languages, Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada, Telungu. Before Arians migrated to India from Old Iran, only Tamil existed as common peoples' language. Sanscrete was not usually spoken language.
Masters of this trick, Vazhakkunnam, Nanu, Prahlad Achraia and the magician performed in the first video, are from southern part of India.

There are two styles of sitting poses in Indian C&B, Rajamura - Padmasana pose. Kakalimura - an easy pose; one can see a magician performing Indian C&B in this pose in the video 'Story of Magic'.
I took only three weeks to master Padmasana pose with the help of a yoga book. It was in childhood. I belonged to an orthodox Muslim group, where magic and yoga are forbidden. Videos of yoga training available on Internet.

Best,
sherif
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 4, 2009 08:02PM)
When I was 12 years old, I could sit in that position. But, that's been a loooong time!

If I tried it now, I would tear several tendons and ligaments.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 4, 2009 10:49PM)
I agree that sitting in that pose for 15 minutes is a bit painful if not experienced.

There are some techniques to achieve this pose. There are some basic poses before start practicing Padmasana, which are easier. I am writing this to motivate the western people to perform Indian cups and balls.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 5, 2009 12:17AM)
I'm over 60 years old. There is no way that I could possibly get into either of those positions without suffering major physical damage.

Regarding performing Indian cups in the West -- Pete Biro is probably the most adept at this routine of all of the Westerners.
Message: Posted by: Magic Researcher (Nov 5, 2009 01:26AM)
I like a lot of things about this routine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTuX_uvm-Qw

He has really improved his technique and adopted some Western moves to enhance the routine. I would prefer less talking, though.

Doing these cups sitting on the floor is the natural way of doing things and opens up some nice loading and ditching possibilities.

I find it strange that several of you find the sitting position difficult. I am well over 60 and have no trouble at all with the position. I have sat in this position for as long as I can remember and still do so - often while seated in a chair. I find it most comfortable. It is a natural way to play with children. Do any of you ever get down on their level to play?
MR
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 5, 2009 02:20AM)
Researcher,
This is magician Prahlad Acharya.

Pete Biro,
Why not take part in discussions?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 5, 2009 03:19AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 02:26, Magic Researcher wrote:
I find it strange that several of you find the sitting position difficult. I am well over 60 and have no trouble at all with the position. I have sat in this position for as long as I can remember and still do so - often while seated in a chair. I find it most comfortable. It is a natural way to play with children. Do any of you ever get down on their level to play?
MR
[/quote]

I don't have any children or grandchildren. So, why would I get down on their level to play? I blew my knees out while I was in the Army, so my movements are quite restricted. Not that it's any of your business.

[quote]
On 2009-11-05 03:20, sherifmayika wrote:
Researcher,
This is magician Prahlad Acharya.

Pete Biro,
Why not take part in discussions?
[/quote]

Look at the second post in this thread. If you want to see Pete's comments about the cups and balls, go to the upper right corner of the screen and click on the word [Search]

When the search screen comes up, put "Pete Biro" where it says "search by username", and where it says "Search in" put in "Ever so Sleightly". You will find more than 2,000 posts by Pete. If you want to narrow it to Indian cups, put "Indian cups" where it says "Search by Keywords". Then, you will see many, many posts by Pete Biro on the Indian Cups.
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Nov 5, 2009 09:40AM)
I am amazed at how they vanish the ball and how they make it appear under a specific cup. I cannot figure it out. Guess I will have to watch those videos again.

One thing that stood out to me more than anything else among all those videos of Indian style C&Bs is the way their hands moved. It's as if they were all taught by the same teacher or something. Makes me wonder what would happen if they were to try the classic Dai Vernon C&Bs routine?

There was one Indian C&Bs video on YouTube that I liked the best where I think he was using 4 cups. His routine was very engaging, and I could watch him again and again.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 5, 2009 10:14AM)
Madkiki,
Can you please find the link for 4 cups routine?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 5, 2009 11:09AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 10:40, madkiki wrote:
I am amazed at how they vanish the ball and how they make it appear under a specific cup. I cannot figure it out. Guess I will have to watch those videos again.

One thing that stood out to me more than anything else among all those videos of Indian style C&Bs is the way their hands moved. It's as if they were all taught by the same teacher or something. Makes me wonder what would happen if they were to try the classic Dai Vernon C&Bs routine?

There was one Indian C&Bs video on YouTube that I liked the best where I think he was using 4 cups. His routine was very engaging, and I could watch him again and again.[/quote]

Keith:

Watch the 9 minute routine at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTuX_uvm-Qw You will see some interesting snippets from Dai Vernon, Silent Mora and David Williamson.

Penn and Teller did a video a while back in which they showed part of a performance by a fellow who claimed to be a descendant of Luxor Galli Galli, the famous Galli Galli who performed for many years in the US. Of course, Galli Galli did not perform Indian cups. He performed Western cups in an Egyptian outfit. So, the descendant of Luxor Galli Galli also performed Western cups.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Nov 5, 2009 11:27AM)
Sherif,
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge of cups and balls - Indian style.

There has been a book written by Lee Siegel, a University of Hawaii professor of religion (and magician) named [i]Net of Magic[/i] in which he lives with and travels with Indian magicians.
The book was a very good read and taught me a lot about the culture and history of street magicians in India. I don't believe there has been a lot of English books written on this subject.
Are you familiar with this book? If so, I wonder if you could speak to its credibility.
Donnie
Message: Posted by: iugefu (Nov 5, 2009 12:18PM)
I've read the book and, as a semi-novel, it shouldn't be judged on "credibility".

It's a truly excellent read.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 5, 2009 12:21PM)
Any book that is based around a discipline should get as much of the factual material as possible straight. Otherwise, the plot and story line will be damaged.

I once read a novel in which they had Adolf Hitler speaking Yiddish. That kinda messed up the whole thing.
Message: Posted by: Donnie Buckley (Nov 5, 2009 03:18PM)
[i]Net of Magic. Wonders and Deceptions in India[/i] is considered to be a scholarly work on the subject, not a novel. Admittedly, it contains some fictional characters, but as I read it, and as it was presented, I assumed it was all based upon the author's actual observations and experience.
I just wonder if Seigel got it right, or did his own perspective skew the subject?
It is a terrific book, but is it an accurate representation of life in a Maslet family?
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 5, 2009 06:17PM)
OK, HERE I AM... but have not had the opportunity to view the videos referenced above. Will do so.

Enjoyed looking at the videos. My current problem is arthritis. I can no longer do the classic Indian Load of a ball under the cup, having had surgery on both hands... So, I use Indian Cups but more of a Western Routine. Sitting cross-legged on the floor is something else I can no longer do. I have put together a book covering the subject, and will soon release it in print form. If you PM me, I might be able to send a PDF file of the draft of the book. Don't ask if you are none of the above posters. Thanks. :spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (Nov 5, 2009 06:45PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 12:09, Bill Palmer wrote:
Penn and Teller did a video a while back in which they showed part of a performance by a fellow who claimed to be a descendant of Luxor Galli Galli...
[/quote]

The video is "Penn & Teller's Magic & Mystery Tour". It also features Dr. Siegel mentioned above.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 6, 2009 03:15AM)
As far as I know, books and videos available on this topic are:
Biro, Pete - The Hindu Cups and Balls
Joseph, Eddie - The Hindu Cups
Branson, L.H. - Indian Conjuring
Hotz, Edwin - The East Indian Cups and Balls
Ilange, P.K. - Indian Cups and Balls
Joseph, Eddie - Indian Cups and Balls
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls
Rink - The Indian Cups and Balls
Sorcar, P.C. - Indian Magic
Stanyon, Ellis - The Indian Cups and Balls
Bamberg, Theo - Indian Conjuring; The Cups and Balls
Steve Dacri - No Filler Vol. 2 (DVD)

And now I add 'Net of Magic, Wonders and Deceptions in India' to this list. Thanks to DDecae. I did not see this book, but I want.

The above said YouTube videos are not complete routine. The listed books and Steve Dacri video cover only the basics of the I C&B.

Today I spoke to magician Nanu, the only magician alive who knows the complete routine. He said original cups and ball routine involves 64 moves. Performance involves a beautiful patter and presentation. The duration is 20-30 minutes. He adds, "what is popular among magicians is that I cut shoted the routine for closeup competition to 8 minutes. that is what Prahlada acharya and Sankar Jr. performs." About the spin vanish and strike vanish he said, "both has a Indian origin and is a little different from western style. for example after both the style of vanish I can show both hands empty."
Yes, in Indian style there are a half dozen techniques to show both hands empty after ball vanish.
In my observation, the new generation have western touch (especially Prahlad acharya).
I know some magicians in India, they produce water, rice, cons, etc., at the climax. There is another interesting move. At the beginning, magician shows five cups and says, "I use only 3 cups now," and keeps two cups away and starts performance with three cups. In between the performance, he swaps these two cups with two of the cups he is using. It will remind you of Tommy wonder loading methods.
I have been collecting all the information available. One they will be packaged in a DVD.

Pete Biro,
Thanks for the PDF offer. I have PMed you.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 6, 2009 01:41PM)
I couldn't detect any difference between the way David Williamson performs the striking vanish and the way the performer in the nine minute video performs it, other than the way he ditched the ball. The same is true of the Silent Mora/Dai Vernon wand spin and the one on the nine minute video (except that Vernon did not drop the wand during his performance). Similar methods for ditching a ball can be used when seated at a table or when performing standing up -- [b]if you know what you are doing.[/b]
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Nov 6, 2009 07:00PM)
I remember when I was 11 or 12 watching, if I remember correctly, Shankar Jr. performing the Indian C&Bs at a convention. It was hard to see because he was at a distance on a raised stage, and he was speaking a different language. I could tell he had skill in what he was doing, and I appreciated that, but it was otherwise very boring to me. I'm glad I've gotten the chance to see these videos. I have a much greater admiration for the Indian C&Bs now, as well as the skill and work involved. :)
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 6, 2009 07:36PM)
Bill Palmer,
There is some western influence in this magician's performance. I guess he started with western cups. The strike vanish may be the same, the spin is not as exactly as Silent Mora. I also become confused because I practiced Vernon spin using Ammar video. Now when performing Indian cups, I forget the original spin.

In the above book list, 'Ilange, P.K. - Indian Cups and Balls' , I have mentioned this magician's name wrongly. The correct name is Ilango, P.K. He is no more, but he has contributed a lot of original tricks and routines to leading magic publications. His comedy newspaper tear is my favorite.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 6, 2009 07:42PM)
Is there a source in print for P.K. Ilango's newspaper tear?
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 6, 2009 11:57PM)
Bill Palmer,
I have PMed you, so let us stick this thread to Indian cups and balls.
Message: Posted by: lint (Nov 7, 2009 01:18AM)
Here are some more from my file:

Bamberg, Theo - Indian Conjuring; The Cups and Balls Sphinx Vol. 24, No. 7
Branson, L.H. - Indian Conjuring
Hotz, Edwin - The East Indian Cups and Balls Sphinx Vol. 38, No. 3
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls Genii Vol. 33, No. 3
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls Genii Vol. 33, No. 4
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls Magicana
Rink - The Indian Cups and Balls Genii Vol. 29, No. 9
Sorcar, P.C. - Indian Magic Angali Annual
Sorcar, P.C. - Manipulations of the Indian Cups and Balls
Stanyon, Ellis - The Indian Cups and Balls Magic Vol. 10, No. 5
Joseph, Eddie - The Hindu Cups Magic Vol. 3, No. 11
Joseph, Eddie - Original Conception for the Hindu Cups Tops 1962 Trick Annual
Platt, John - Hindoo Cups and Balls
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 7, 2009 02:45AM)
Lint,
Thanks for bringing these documentations my notice. I will check Genie magazine.
Message: Posted by: Stellan (Nov 7, 2009 03:16AM)
By the way, Sherifmayika, I have two questions for you. The first is if there is a chance to see Indian street magic in Delhi? The second is if you know of any Indian magic words like "hocus pocus"?
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 7, 2009 04:07AM)
There are a plenty of good street magicians in Delhi. You can also hear some Indian magic words from them, too.

Posted: Nov 7, 2009 7:36am
Lint,
Which are the best Books in your opinion?
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 7, 2009 11:44AM)
What about sitting at a table using egg cups for occidental performers? Haven't we the capacity to adapt otherwise than by breaking the knees of physically older but mentally fresher performers like Pete Biro, Bill Palmer and myself (I'm playing in the same age league, if not at the same level)?

In my opinion, the best books appeared under the pen of Pete Biro and Eddie Joseph.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 7, 2009 09:20PM)
As I mentioned before, there are two styles of Indian cups and Balls. Kakalimura and Rajamura. In the first style sitting is easy, and in latter, magician sits in 'padmasana' which is more difficult. In this pose, more deceptive moves are possible.

One of the major attractions of the Indian Cups and Balls is that it is street magic. Have you imagined David Blaine trying western cups and balls? Sure, you would say that it does not match his style. In my opinion, if it is taken to the table the originality is lost. We have Dai Vernon's routine and Tommy Wonder's routine to adapt to the table.

Many said Patter is not interesting because it was in a foreign language. It is wrong. I would say patter is 50 percent beauty of the Routine. I have seen the Japanese, the French, the Chinese and certainly Englishman enjoy this trick. I asked them about the patter, and they said that was brilliant. "We could understand everything what he said." There is a harmony between body language and emotions and patter. Why? Because the performer was adept in what he was doing.

Prahlad Acharya and Shankar Jr. are good magicians, but their IC&B is not up to its standard. Both of them have inspired me alot. They are creative, too.
Message: Posted by: lint (Nov 8, 2009 11:06AM)
Hi Sherif,
Thanks for your PM. Unfortunately, I do not study the Indian Cups. Although, I do love the routines and the variation it provides to the c&b world. The list I provided above comes from my research for a cups & balls bibliography. Those were the entries I had that were not listed already in the thread. You can checkout the complete bibliography here:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=287352&forum=115

Regards,
todd
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Nov 8, 2009 12:25PM)
I would like to mention something off-topic here.

Just because you are old does not mean you should give up and grow old. We all should continue getting a good physical workout through out our lifetime, so we can continue to be as healthy as possible for as long as we can. My Dad is 89 and still plays tennis everyday; he is the family's inspiration. I am 47, and I do weight lifting, rock climbing, racquetball, speed biking, and in-line speed skating. I am not or ever have been a super sports jock, I am someone who enjoys working out and being healthy.

I do not know if I can sit on the floor and bend my legs all over the place, but I am not going to sit around complaining that I am too old to do things. My tail bone hurts from sitting too long on a hard floor, so I improvise by putting a pillow down on the floor to sit on.

Besides, this topic is about Indian C&Bs, and I guess it is their cultural habit to sit on the floor the way they do. I have no intentions of adapting to other cultural habits, but it is fun to watch and learn new things. I keep thinking that I would like to see them sitting on a bed of nails performing their C&Bs, or how about a flying carpet?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 8, 2009 07:07PM)
One thing for sure -- if you perform the cups and balls while sitting on a bed of nails, you won't let the trick move too slowly!
Message: Posted by: Michael J. Douglas (Nov 9, 2009 01:10AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-07 22:20, sherifmayika wrote:
Many said Patter is not interesting because it was in a foreign language. It is wrong. I would say patter is 50 percent beauty of the Routine. I have seen the Japanese, the French, the Chinese and certainly Englishman enjoy this trick. I asked them about the patter, and they said that was brilliant. "We could understand everything what he said." There is a harmony between body language and emotions and patter. Why? Because the performer was adept in what he was doing.
[/quote]

I hope my previous post wasn't misunderstood regarding language. The reason I originally found the Indian C&Bs uninteresting was a combination of my young age, not being able to see what was happening, and not being able to follow the patter because I couldn't understand the language. I found the videos posted here very entertaining, and I can follow along perfectly because I can see what's happening.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 9, 2009 05:46PM)
Two things:

1) David Blaine is NOT a street magician. He is a television magician. He performs magic with people on the street, but his real audience is the television audience. This audience seems to be diminishing and is now primarily a YouTube audience.

2) Many "real" street magicians, i.e. buskers, perform the cups and balls in many different forms and in many different venues. Most Western buskers who perform the cups and balls do so with Western cups and the Vernon routine or a variant thereof.

I'm not saying it would be impossible, but I will say it would be very unlikely that any of the Indian performers I have seen on the various YouTube videos could hold an audience in San Francisco, Boston or any of the common American venues. In London, they might have a chance, but the language barrier would definitely pose a problem. Also, if they performed the "full" long routine, their crowd would begin to disperse, unless they had some way of keeping them from moving along.

In India, there is less of a problem, because it's expected that the audience will be prepared to watch or hear an act performed in one of the Indian languages. Part of the problem in the States would be that audiences that do not understand the language of the artist begin to make comments to one another, and soon the rest of the audience is distracted.

It's a pity, but I believe it is true.

Posted: Nov 9, 2009 8:00pm
By the way, this was not intended at all to be a comment against the abilities of the performers of the long Indian cups and balls routine, but a comment about the general taste of American audiences.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 9, 2009 10:11PM)
Bill Palmer,
Thanks for for your observations.
1. I agree now with you on David Blaine.
2. What I meant is that performing cups and ball without a table is difficult.

The rest of what you said is correct.

I feel sad that some outstanding performers in India did not permit me to capture them on camera because of fear that their trade secrets will be stolen. I am still asking them for permission. If I had a YouTube post on my favorite IC&B performer, this discussion would have been totally different.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 9, 2009 11:10PM)
I'm certain that it would have.

By the way, although I don't know of any three cup routines that are performed without a table, there are several of us, Dennis Loomis for example, who perform the chop cup right in the spectator's hand. I, too, have done this. It makes for some very interesting situation comedy.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 10, 2009 03:00AM)
Thanks for bringing Dennis Loomis to my notice. When Googled, there a book by this gentleman 'Dennis Loomis Cups & Balls Routine - Dennis Loomis'. Is there any video on Dennis Loomis performing Cups & Balls in spectator's hand?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 10, 2009 10:47AM)
The one that he performs in the hand is the micro chop cup routine.

The three cup routine is performed seated at a table.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 10, 2009 10:56AM)
SPEAKING OF LANGUAGE.... I have done both the Indian cups and the Vernon-style cups speaking a fake double talk. I started fooling around one night doing an "IMPRESSION" of Shankar Jr. the first time I saw him. He was very young and had a vary high voice. So, I said words that meant nothing in a squeaky voice. Phrases like, Shishmama o kooba nee karamba.... It played well. Then another time, took this same idea to the western cups doing a fake Hungarian accent (I am partly Hungarian) with fitting double talk.
Message: Posted by: Stellan (Nov 10, 2009 12:23PM)
Peter Rosengren's Cups & Balls in spectator's hands is both elegant and published.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 12, 2009 09:26AM)
Today I watched Steve Darci performing Indian cups and balls in his DVD 'Steve Dacri - No Fillers, vol 2'. He performed it on table.

"This is Charlie Miller's routine," he says. "Charlie Miller, Dai Vernon and I spent days together for creating a routine."

I am really impressed by some of the simple and deceptive loading methods used by this gentleman, which really justifies with the traditional one.

Charlie Miller's 'grass mat' is a wonderful addition to the trick from time immemorial.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 12, 2009 05:46PM)
Steve Dacri does some very nice work on that series.

In his articles on the Indian cups that appeared in Genii Magazine, Charlie Miller said that many of the Indian magicians made their own cups from elephant bells. He described the process in a fair amount of detail. I made several sets of these in different sizes.

Is Charlie's information correct?
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 12, 2009 10:14PM)
In old times, Indian magicians used coconut shells as cups. Coconut shell craft exists here for centuries or more. Later, some used wooden shells. Certainly there was some and is a few magicians who use elephant bells. Now, the cups seen mostly are wooden-dealer cups and steel or brass cups which are used for other purposes.
Message: Posted by: lint (Nov 12, 2009 10:34PM)
I enjoyed Dacri's routine as well in that video. Someone get that guy a pair of nail clippers, though. Blech!
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 13, 2009 04:52AM)
Here is listed Charlie Miller performing Indian cups
http://www.magicproshop.com/greater-magic-volume-charlie-miller-and-johnny-thompson-dvd-p-6577.html

Has anybody see this video? Greater Magic Volume 29 - Charlie Miller and Johnny Thompson - DVD
Message: Posted by: Tilman (Nov 13, 2009 07:27AM)
Sherifmayika, this is not so much a recording of a performance, rather Charlie Miller being interviewed by Thompson - and demonstrating certain sequences and moves. As others have mentioned, it would be a pity if Charlie Miller was remembered on the basis of this footage. These recordings were made late in his life...
As for the Indian Cups and Balls, as far as I remember, he just imparts very basic knowledge (such as that you use the classic palm, the way balls are loaded under cups from the palm, how you can pretend that a ball penetrates the cup by 'pressing it' through the top of the cup while really palming it - nothing more as far as I can remember). He does not say anything about the way performers of Indian Cups and Balls are seated and how they use their seated position to conceal balls.
If you want to get a sense of Charlie Miller as a person, these are valuable recordings, but as a source of knowledge on the Indian Cups and Balls, this DVD certainly won't tell you anything new.
(BTW, I have only seen the footage pertaining to the cups and balls - not part II and III on Egg Bag and Cards.)
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 13, 2009 08:56AM)
Tilman,
Thanks for the review.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 13, 2009 11:54AM)
And, to my knowledge, the little cups sold with Charlie Miller's name on them were actually small metal end caps used on large drapery rods. They are really too small to do much with.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 13, 2009 02:37PM)
They were definitely not any kind of "Indian" cup.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 13, 2009 06:37PM)
I will ask Indian magic historian and India's biggest magic collector, Nk sekar, for a clarity on cups. I have never seen anybody using elephant bells as cups, but I have heard once.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 13, 2009 10:52PM)
Offering Bowls are often used. I have a lovely, very old set in heavy brass and use an antique opium pipe for a wand.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 13, 2009 11:28PM)
I tried to work out a routine that used a bong, but I kept getting confused.
Message: Posted by: dcjames (Nov 14, 2009 05:28AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-14 00:28, Bill Palmer wrote:
I tried to work out a routine that used a bong, but I kept getting confused.
[/quote]

Dang it, Bill - I just about choked on my coffee...

Thanks for starting my day with a laugh!
Message: Posted by: Bo J (Nov 14, 2009 01:06PM)
I believe that this routine is one of the better and very direct:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xejx3_indianstreetmagic

It seems that the T-palm is used instead of the C-palm. It seems much easier to use the T-palm.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 14, 2009 05:58PM)
He uses several different techniques.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Nov 14, 2009 11:46PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-14 14:06, Bo J wrote:
I believe that this routine is one of the better and very direct:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xejx3_indianstreetmagic
[/quote]
I agree.
[quote]
It seems that the T-palm is used instead of the C-palm. It seems much easier to use the T-palm.
[/quote]
He uses c-palm only. He is so perfect in in his job. There is a phrase among cups and balls "through ball". This means quickly insert c-palmed ball into the cup. This move is different from how Steve Dacri inserts balls into cups.

Indian street magicians don't learn many tricks. They learn and perform only 3-5 routines in their entire life. Most of them learn magic from their parents.

The cup used by this magician is kitchen utensil.

Any one know who is this magician?
Message: Posted by: Necromancer (Nov 23, 2009 11:06AM)
Offering bowls are a wonderful tip, Pete. Thanks!

Best,
Neil
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 23, 2009 06:19PM)
Finally got a chance to watch this performer. He really does the loading to perfection. Thanks for posting.
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Dec 12, 2009 03:01PM)
Very interesting thread and full of information. I have seen a magician perform Indian Cups and Balls with chicken in Jaipur. It was amazing.

Anyone interested in seeing a street magician in Delhi must go to Kathputli Colony. It is a slum though, but full of street artists. Even Ishammuddin, the Indian magician who revived the first part of India Rope Trick, lives here.

Where can I get the Pete Biro book on Indian Cups and Balls?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 12, 2009 05:11PM)
I would hazard a guess that you could get it from Pete Biro. Just send him a private message.
Message: Posted by: Necromancer (Feb 1, 2010 06:14PM)
Just wanted to share that per Pete Biro's suggestion, I found three brass butter lamps/offering bowls. The extra small size is 2.5 inches in diameter and 2 inches high. It works great, and three will set you back a scant $18 plus shipping.
http://tibetantreasures.com/tthtml/ttmerch/Shrine%20pages/butterlamps.html

Best,
Neil
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 6, 2010 02:08PM)
Thanks for that link, Neil!

If you get these, you really need to buy Pete Biro's book on the Indian Cups & Balls! I do believe (correct me, Pete, if I am mistaken), that there is an extra tip on using the top of the cup as a hold-out! A most valuable book, in my opinion.

Pete had a similar set he used to sell, and the book that came with it, describes that feature in detail. Pete's web page is:

http://www.petebiro.com

Pete just posted that, "...in one of Eddie Joseph's routines he suggests using baby bottle NIPPLES instead of balls." What a GREAT idea! I'm going to look into that. Plus, if you are looking for a very classy, wooden set of Indian Cups, this site has them marked down from $80 to $10! I just bought them, and I'm so glad I did! What a find! (It's the cups only, balls are not included) Check 'em out:

http://magic4less.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M4L&Product_Code=ranindcupssm&Category_Code=CLUP

They're probably not going to last long, so I'd hurry!

Doug
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 7, 2010 12:58PM)
Excuse me, but I should add, that these wooden cups have the Chop Cup feature!
Message: Posted by: Amazin Doug (Oct 16, 2010 05:36PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-07 13:58, Dougini wrote:
Excuse me, but I should add, that these wooden cups have the Chop Cup feature!
[/quote]

I already posted this on another cups and balls thread here at the Café, but I want to reiterate my thanks to Dougini for the link to the great bargain on the wooden Hindu cups. All 3 are chopped, and they look great! For $11.99!?

But now my regular combo cup balls are too big. The wooden Hindu cups are rather small. The "one" ball won't dislodge. I'm going to have to get cork balls from the local hobby shop and gimmick one, I think.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 17, 2010 01:26PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-16 18:36, Amazin Doug wrote:
...I want to reiterate my thanks to Dougini for the link to the great bargain on the wooden Hindu cups. All 3 are chopped, and they look great! For $11.99!?

But now my regular combo cup balls are too big. The wooden Hindu cups are rather small. The "one" ball won't dislodge. I'm going to have to get cork balls from the local hobby shop and gimmick one, I think.
[/quote]

My pleasure Doug! They are a bargain! I hope to eventually get cork balls and gaff them, but I found some little pom poms that work great! I bought a sash with three different colors, and snipped four of them off, and man...what a great little set!

I have been practicing with them, and it's just a matter of time. They look nice on a shelf, as well! Some kind of exotic wood, too. Very, very nice!
Message: Posted by: Amazin Doug (Oct 19, 2010 07:04PM)
[quote]I hope to eventually get cork balls and gaff them, but I found some little pom poms that work great! I bought a sash with three different colors, and snipped four of them off, and man...what a great little set![/quote]

I went to a local hobby shop looking for the cork balls and found several sizes of wooden balls as well as some small wooden eggs. (All unpainted.) They also had several sizes of pom poms in various colors.

The pom poms look great. I still need to gimmick the wood balls to see whether they're too heavy.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 19, 2010 08:40PM)
Use strong magnets.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 19, 2010 09:25PM)
Doug, Dougini, please drop me an e-mail. You can get my e-mail address from my profile. I may have the solution for you.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Oct 20, 2010 12:52PM)
Thanks, Bill, Shot ya an email!
Message: Posted by: El Mystico (Nov 12, 2010 12:36PM)
Nanu was referred to earlier in the thread; I've just seen his performance of the cups and balls; it was lovely.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Nov 14, 2010 03:21PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-19 22:25, Bill Palmer wrote:
Doug, Dougini, please drop me an e-mail. You can get my e-mail address from my profile. I may have the solution for you.
[/quote]

Bill you have provided the BEST solution!! Thank you so much! I am so grateful! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 14, 2010 03:44PM)
You are quite welcome!
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Jul 6, 2011 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 10:40, Keith Mitchell wrote:

One thing that stood out to me more than anything else among all those videos of Indian style C&Bs is the way their hands moved. It's as if they were all taught by the same teacher or something. Makes me wonder what would happen if they were to try the classic Dai Vernon C&Bs routine?

[/quote]

Unlike the western performer who is more inclined on exclusivity and originality, the Indian performer is told my his mentor to learn the moves to perfection. The word for it is sadhana. The Indian performer is not much worried about being original but in getting it exactly the way he is taught. I am not sure if he is able to learn all the 64 original moves. But the few he learns are to perfection.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Jul 6, 2011 07:11PM)
I noticed 64 is a recurring number in Sanskrit literature, so is 128.
I don't think the number 64 should be taken literally as the number of moves.
I know if you ask the few who are left in India with this skill, they still will tell you 64.
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Jul 8, 2011 01:35PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-06 20:11, Gary Kosnitzky wrote:
I noticed 64 is a recurring number in Sanskrit literature, so is 128.
[/quote]

The two numbers are 64 and 108, the first one in the Tantric tradition and the latter in the Vaishnava tradition. But if they say there are 64 moves the surely must have existed. The whole trouble about Indian magic is excess of secrecy; which is killing the art and in process a lot of techniques and tricks have been lost. I hope the culture of Magic shops like in the USA and Europe arrives in India as well.
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Jul 12, 2011 12:43PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-07 04:16, Stellan wrote:
By the way, Sherifmayika, I have two questions for you. The first is if there is a chance to see Indian street magic in Delhi? The second is if you know of any Indian magic words like "hocus pocus"?
[/quote]

The best place to see some street magicians is near the Red Fort in Old Delhi or near the Qutub in Delhi. If you can spend some time out you should try and reash Kathputli Colony. It is almost a slum but here is where all the street magicians live, including Ishammuddin who discovered the first part of Indian Rope Trick. If you can and is still alive try and catch hold of Chand Baba. He is good and knows a lot of traditional tricks.

The most popular Magic Word equivalent of Abracadabra in Hindi is "Chu Mantar". A lot of street magicinas also use words like "Churlu" in the north. It does not mean anything. Just a nonsense word like Hosuc Focus. In Calcutta they say "Jai Kali" refering to the Black Goddess of the Occult Kali.
Message: Posted by: sherifmayika (Jul 20, 2011 08:50PM)
Finally a cool video from Shankar Junior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DMviA0gbO8
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Aug 30, 2011 02:53PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-06 15:08, Dougini wrote:
Thanks for that link, Neil!
Plus, if you are looking for a very classy, wooden set of Indian Cups, this site has them marked down from $80 to $10! I just bought them, and I'm so glad I did! What a find! (It's the cups only, balls are not included) Check 'em out:

http://magic4less.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M4L&Product_Code=ranindcupssm&Category_Code=CLUP

They're probably not going to last long, so I'd hurry!

Doug
[/quote]

Following this suggestion I ordered this set of Cups and Balls and the result has been a disaster.
I placed the order on your website Magic 4 Less 6 july 2011. They received the money on the same day. But nothing happened.
On 15th July I wrote another mail but no reply. I again wrote another mail on 12th August and on 14th I got a reply from Robert Bowden saying that he would look into this. Again nothing happened. I wrote another mail on 25th August and still not reply came. I called
Again I wrote to you on 12 August. You replied on that you will have this check on 14 August.

As I did not get your reply, on 25th August I wrote again. But no reply. Finally today I called the number which figures on the web page (801) 651-1982. An answering machine poped up, "saying please leave your phone number and we would get back to you". Immediately another message poped up saying, "The Mail box for this number is full.". So I could not even leave a message. It is unfortunate and I think very unprofessional. Finally today I filed a complaint with Paypal that I should get my refund. I don't think this is going to happen so I have lost USD 50 approx. I have been duped. So be careful. If someone knows Robert Bowden and can help me I would be thankful.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Aug 30, 2011 06:53PM)
You have to submit a claim with Paypal within 45 days of your purchase.
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Sep 1, 2011 09:19AM)
[quote]
On 2011-08-30 19:53, Gary Kosnitzky wrote:
You have to submit a claim with Paypal within 45 days of your purchase.
[/quote]

You are right but since he replied back to me saying that he would look into it once he is back I gave a fellow magician some more time and that was my mistake it seems.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Sep 1, 2011 11:26AM)
OK. Here is your next course of action if you want satisfaction.

http://www.consumerprotection.utah.gov/complaints/index.html

It is a Utah area code.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Sep 1, 2011 11:31AM)
At the same time file a complaint with the IFCC.

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Sep 2, 2011 03:22PM)
Gary Kosnitzky I will give it a try.
Message: Posted by: maharajademagia (Nov 3, 2011 01:05PM)
[quote]
On 2010-11-12 13:36, El Mystico wrote:
Nanu was referred to earlier in the thread; I've just seen his performance of the cups and balls; it was lovely.
[/quote]

Where do you see him perform can you give some more information please.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Nov 3, 2011 02:54PM)
I PM'ed you.
Message: Posted by: magicswan (Dec 11, 2011 08:24AM)
What about the meir yedid cups for$75?
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Dec 11, 2011 09:22AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-11 09:24, magicswan wrote:
What about the meir yedid cups for $75?
[/quote]

It really doesn't matter what kind of cups you get if your not going
to perform in the traditional style.

In order to perform in the traditional style you need
an authentic traditional style hindu cup.
Message: Posted by: magicswan (Dec 11, 2011 08:43PM)
Well ,thats the plan.To sit and study the work and add it to my act.I can sit indian style so I'm good. But since reading the wall and not investing in morresey cups,I thought the Meir cups looked nice..but if they won't get the job done.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Dec 11, 2011 10:38PM)
I have seen a lot of nice looking Ping Pong paddles.
Maybe I wil buy one to play golf with.

Afterall they are real nice looking and you can hit a ball with them.
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Dec 11, 2011 10:41PM)
As an afterthought I will sell these Ping Pong paddles to everyone that doesn't know
about how golf really works and tell them that these paddles are real nice looking and are used to play golf.
Message: Posted by: Magic Researcher (Dec 11, 2011 11:41PM)
Some people might be interested in golf rules and swings but not in playing golf just as some might be interested in the Historic Indian Cups routine and moves but not interested in doing the original routine. Perhaps some are interested in developing their own original routine utilizing Western moves as well as Eastern moves in a stand up situation using whatever they want for cups. There is nothing wrong with that.
MR
Message: Posted by: Ron Reid (May 5, 2012 09:07AM)
Yes
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Oct 7, 2012 02:25PM)
Interesting thread, indeed! So, where do things stand now?

Jim
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Oct 18, 2012 05:49PM)
:)
Message: Posted by: Kyf (Oct 19, 2012 09:13AM)
;-)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Nov 1, 2012 11:21AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-12 00:41, Magic Researcher wrote:
...some might be interested in the Historic Indian Cups routine and moves but not interested in doing the original routine. Perhaps some are interested in developing their own original routine utilizing Western moves as well as Eastern moves in a stand up situation using whatever they want for cups. There is nothing wrong with that.
[/quote]

You're right. However, I am interested in learning 'Cheppum Panthum'. I have already done Cups & Balls, and am interested in the 5000 year old routine. I would like to perform the routine Gary does. Nothing wrong with doing Cups & Balls, or Hindu Cups & Balls your way. I, however, am interested in the 'Cheppum Panthum' way of doing things...

Doug
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Nov 5, 2012 07:24AM)
I agree with Doug. You can do the Indian Cups effect anyway you like. But I feel to fully understand the effect as to the how, why? It is a very good idea to study the whole history and the original ways of doing it. If you don't study all of that. It is possible to leave some key ingredient out of your own routine that would make it work a lot better for you. Magicians like Ricky Jay Eric Decamps etc.... Have been known to not put effects into their performances for a year or more till they have not only perfected the effect but studied all that they can on just that one item.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 20, 2012 08:05AM)
Please find herebelow a bibliographical summary of the Indian Cups and Balls routines in English and French
Theo. Bamberg (Okito): Cups and Balls - Indian Conjuring The Sphinx Vol 24 N° 7 p 209 © Sept 1925
Joe Berg: The Chinese Cups and Balls © 1928 Princess Magic Shop
Pete Biro: The Indian Cups and Balls © 2008 Pete Biro
Major L. H. Branson: Indian Conjuring p 16 © 1922
Steve Dacri: Indian Cups and Balls; The Magic of Steve Dacri - No Filler! Vol 2 DVD © L&L Publishing
Elbiquet: The Indian Cups And Balls p 137 in Supplementary Magic © 1917
Les Greenhalgh: Indian Cups and Balls Routine Swami Issue 31 © 1974 Sam Dalal and © 1997 Richard Kaufman
Edwin Hotz: The East Indian Cups and Balls in The Sphinx Vol. 38 N° 3 © May 1939
P. K. Ilango: Indian Cups and Balls © 1983 Supreme Know How Series
Eddie Joseph: Sleights, Moves and Subterfuges – series by Eddie Joseph - The Hindu Cups; Max Andrews’ Magic Magazine: Vol 3 N° 11 © Feb 1955 p 294 & Magic and mysteries of India © 1962 Abbott's Magic Manufacturing Co
Jack Karlow: La Magie de salon par l'adresse manuelle : le close-up © 1989 J. Karlow 10, rue Commandant-Mages, 13001 Marseille (France)
Solyl Kundu: Indian Cups and Balls, Nu Style My Kind of Magic © 2007 p 26
Alma [Maurice Méjean]: Le jeu des Gobelets © 1945 Mayette Magie Moderne
Charlie Miller: The Indian Cups and Balls in Genii Vol 33 N° 3 © Nov 1968 and 4 Dec 1968
Rink (Aka J. Van Rinkhuyzen): The Indian Cups and Balls in Genii Vol. 29, N° 9 May 1965 & Rink's Magic from Holland p 29 © 1968 Hugh Miller Unique Magic Studios
Shankar Junior The Complete Cups and Balls © 1998 Michael Ammar and L&L Publishing; p. 120 the Indian cups and balls
P.C. Sorcar: Manipulations of the Indian Cups and Balls © 1933 P.C. Sorcar
Ellis Stanyon: Original Lessons in Magic: The Indian Cups; Magic Magazine Vol X N° 5 p 33 © Feb 1910 Ellis Stanyon

or classified by publication date

Ellis Stanyon: Original Lessons in Magic: The Indian Cups; Magic Magazine Vol X N° 5 p 33 © Feb 1910 Ellis Stanyon
Elbiquet: The Indian Cups And Balls p 137 in Supplementary Magic © 1917
Major L. H. Branson: Indian Conjuring p 16 © 1922
Theo. Bamberg (Okito): Cups and Balls - Indian Conjuring The Sphinx Vol 24 N° 7 p 209 © Sept 1925
Joe Berg: The Chinese Cups and Balls © 1928 Princess Magic Shop
P.C. Sorcar: Manipulations of the Indian Cups and Balls © 1933 P.C. Sorcar
Edwin Hotz: The East Indian Cups and Balls in The Sphinx Vol. 38 N° 3 May 1939
Alma [Maurice Méjean]: Le jeu des Gobelets © 1945 Mayette Magie Moderne
Eddie Joseph: Sleights, Moves and Subterfuges – series by Eddie Joseph - The Hindu Cups; Max Andrews’ Magic Magazine: Vol 3 N° 11 © Feb 1955 p 294 & Magic and mysteries of India © 1962 Abbott's Magic Manufacturing Co
Rink (Aka J. Van Rinkhuyzen): The Indian Cups and Balls in Genii Vol. 29, N° 9 May 1965 & Rink's Magic from Holland p 29 © 1968 Hugh Miller Unique Magic Studios
Charlie Miller: The Indian Cups and Balls in Genii Vol 33 N° 3 © Nov 1968 and 4 Dec 1968
Les Greenhalgh: Indian Cups and Balls Routine Swami Issue 31 © 1974 Sam Dalal and © 1997 Richard Kaufman
P. K. Ilango: Indian Cups and Balls © 1983 Supreme Know How Series
Jack Karlow: La Magie de salon par l'adresse manuelle : le close-up © 1989 J. Karlow 10, rue Commandant-Mages, 13001 Marseille (France)
Shankar Junior The Complete Cups and Balls © 1998 Michael Ammar and L&L Publishing; p. 120 the Indian cups and balls
Solyl Kundu: Indian Cups and Balls, Nu Style My Kind of Magic © 2007 p 26
Pete Biro: The Indian Cups and Balls © 2008 Pete Biro
Steve Dacri: Indian Cups and Balls; The Magic of Steve Dacri - No Filler! Vol 2 DVD © L&L Publishing
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 22, 2012 05:30PM)
I forgot that Roy Fromer has three Indian Cups routines in his booklet "The Cups" A Manual of Cups and Balls Magic © 1972 D. Robbins & Company, Inc.
Message: Posted by: furplesnort (Mar 14, 2015 07:05PM)
Where can I pick up an artificial grass mat for Indian cups and balls?
Message: Posted by: Gary Kosnitzky (Mar 14, 2015 09:21PM)
Http://lmgtfy.com/?q=artificial+grass+mats
Message: Posted by: Necromancer (Jul 29, 2019 11:12AM)
Here's the version I used to kick off Act 2 of my biographical Hanussen play of a few years ago, Palace of the Occult.
https://youtu.be/HqLferbMa2s
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 31, 2019 07:03PM)
[quote]On Mar 14, 2015, Gary Kosnitzky wrote:
Http://lmgtfy.com/?q=artificial+grass+mats [/quote]

What if my computer is Google disabled?