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Topic: Hypnotism
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Sep 7, 2001 10:22PM)
Can anyone recommend any books or videos. I bought a video on stage hypnotism and it was pretty useless.Any help is appreciated.



Ichazod
Message: Posted by: John Zander (Sep 7, 2001 11:03PM)
Have you read "The How to Book of Hypnotism" by Tom Silver and Ormond McGill? I have it, Tom was kind enough to send me a copy but I have not read it. But I hear nothing but good things about it.



BTW, how the heck do you pronounce "Ichazod"?
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Sep 8, 2001 08:38PM)
Thanx John! You pronounce it "ikazod"
Message: Posted by: Doug Byrd (Sep 8, 2001 09:44PM)
I'd recommend not only the How To Book by Tom and Ormond but also "The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism" also by Ormond McGill. I've just cracked into this huge book and it is great so far. He starts off with history and background in Hypnotism and then the second half is about how-to. It is a huge book. Highly recommended. I got mine from Amazon.com.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Doug
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Sep 8, 2001 09:46PM)
Thanx Doug, much appreciated.

Ichazod
Message: Posted by: JaquaiGul (Oct 2, 2001 08:43AM)
Start with the "tricks" that seem like hypnosis. You must convince people that you have the power. Once they believe, you can talk them into anything. Last Christmas my wife's office had a professional stage hypnotist perform at the Christmas party. He bombed because no one believed he could do it to them.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 7, 2001 11:52AM)
Many years ago I studied hypnotism and received my certification as a Relaxologist (Fancy way of saying Hypnotist) and even built and sold galvonic skin responders.



It does not belong in the field of Magic. It’s not what people think it is, "The Power to Control Others!"



It’s only a form of subconscience suggestions, that dream state just before you go to sleep and just before you wake up. It has it's medical purposes and behavior control uses (Smoking, Drinking, Weight Loss Control, etc.) but it is not magic!



:bunny:
Message: Posted by: Burt Yaroch (Nov 7, 2001 12:06PM)
Alright, I'll ask. What's a galavonic skin thingy and does it have a fetzer valve? :shrug: :confused: :shrug:
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 7, 2001 03:55PM)
Opps, A galvonic skin responder is an electronic device which you connect to your fingers. It measures the resistance between your fingers and converts the resistance into sound. The more relaxed you get the greater change in resistance the lower pitch in sound. By listening to the sound you get an indication if your relaxing or not. It trains your body to know how to relax. Kind of like tuning a guitar. After a while the device is not needed. On command you can go into a total relaxation mode.



Radio Shack sold them as biofeedback monitors. They also worked well. For a practicing Hypnotist, they are a must. For an entertaining Hypnotist, well that’s another story.

:bunny:
Message: Posted by: dorbolo (Dec 27, 2001 12:43AM)
DenDowhy,



I'm interested in why you think that hypnotism does not belong in magic. I am aware that some therapeutic hypnotists are opposed to stage hyponosis, but I am not clear on the arguments against it.



Not long ago I saw Kreskin perform. He mixed magic effects (linking rings and card effects) with mentalism and hyponosis. Pretty darn effective show, though it crosses the boundaries that some magic theorists put up.



Two years ago I attended a stage hypnotist show on a university campus in NY, The house was packed and the audience loved it.



So, I ask again, what is the objection to stage hypnotism?



In good spirit,



Jon
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 31, 2001 07:02AM)
Jon,



Hypnotism is not Magic. It is an art form which can be used for good. The hardest thing I have to do is convince people hypnosis is real and it is not what people have preconceived ideas about from stage performances. (Hence, the dislike from Professional Hypnotists.)



I am not opposed to stage humor, I am opposed to those who claim they have "the power" (Miss Cleo, Edwards, Kreskin-at one time) and bilk others on that claim.



Once one believes Hypnosis is a "trick" to make others act like ducks, lovers, dogs, etc., they cease to believe hypnosis can do good in many areas, especially in the motivational area. It's like telling people penicillian is Magic.



There is a big difference in what is real and what is humor, especially when a known medical usage of Hypnosis is destroyed by those who play with it as a joke.



Please don't take offense, I personally think it is wrong to use it in this way. It's almost like me going back in time over two thousand years with my bag of modern tools, medicine, magic and pretending I am a miracle worker. One might believe me to be a "God".



When it comes to making money, I refuse to use my talents as Hypnotist for entertainment purposes, that is my choice. I just know if anyone of them were asked if they would like to use hypnosis to correct a problem or habit, or for motivational training, they would think of your show.

It would be hard to convince them otherwise of the value of Hypnosis.



It's a difference of opinion, and that's all it is, an opinion.
Message: Posted by: p.b.jones (Dec 31, 2001 09:07AM)
Hi,

I was interested to read that you had certification in hypnotism. How did you get this? In our country (UK) and I thought it was the same there in the US, there is no official qualification (goverment accredited)

only non-accredited by self appointed organizations which are not really a qualification at all just a Scam. You might just as well make up an organization and print the certificate yourself, in much the same way you can buy doctorates in virtually any subject you like for a few pounds/dollars.



Am I wrong about this?



phillip
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Jan 1, 2002 09:18AM)
[quote]On 2001-12-31 10:07, p.b.jones wrote: How did you get this? [/quote]



Over 25 years ago I received my certification from an individual organization which taught hypnosis. He was well know at the time, has been on TV and is an area expert on the topic. He also had a consulting service. Yes, he was well “qualified” from my perspective.



It was called Relaxology instead of Hypnosis because of the stigma attached to the word left by stage magicians/hypnotists. At the time, the medical field did not believe in hypnosis, even though they prescribed medicine, which did exactly the same things a skilled professional hypnotist could do. Since that time hypnosis has found it’s place in the medical field, although limited.



[quote]In our country (UK) and I thought it was the same there in the US, there is no Official qualification (government accredited), only non accredited by self appointed organizations which are not really a qualification at all just a Scam. [/quote]



You are right anyone can make certifications about anything. My Certification only indicated I studied for six months on the topic of Hypnosis, and was qualified to practice this art. A Scam… not in this case, although you are right there are many scams for money. I have never regretted my knowledge learned or the many times I practiced it on myself. It put an “air” of legitimacy to what I learned.



Basically the skills I learned were controlling the autonomic system functions, which by the way at the time, the medical field said was impossible to do. Oh yes, it can be dangerous, I was controlling my heart rate in an instant increasing and decreasing it, along with my blood pressure. I could go to sleep standing up in 30 seconds. It was a trained art that if used improperly I could have done damage to my own body. It could be used to correct those items advertised by a professional hypnotist.



I do have dual college degrees in Computer and Informational sciences. My friends who thought I was full of c**p with this hypnosis stuff were amazed what I did with these skills and the computer. I wrote two programs that allowed me to use my relaxation methods to control a game program and to type on the screen without the use of a keyboard or mouse. It had great handicap potential. By controlling body tension, I could move a cursor up and down on the screen, selecting letters, numbers or firing an arrow to hit a target on command. Again, I never pursued this any further other then proving to the disbeliever what was possible.



Yes, a Certification is meaningless, it and $2.00 could get me a beer in a cheap bar, however, to me it was the self-satisfaction of an accomplishment. (learning skill) Now, in the US one could get college credits for these skills, if the organization applies for them and provides them with the proper syllabus and testing criteria.



I hope this addresses your questions, and clears up the difference of Stage Hypnotism, Certifications, Scams, Professional Relaxologists/Hypnotists.
Message: Posted by: grafter (Jan 13, 2002 08:15PM)
I will let you into a secret about hypnosis.

Shhhh! It doesn't exist!!

I do it for a living. I know.
Message: Posted by: brainman (Jan 13, 2002 08:32PM)
Check out books from Milton Erickson and Ernest L. Rossi.

Hypnosis is not a game, it is a tool and from my therapeutic background it is to say... do not underestimate it... it is an opener of souls doors.. and the more knowledge you have of it the more you will know how to handle the things that wait behind those doors..

Stage hypnosis even is forbidden by law in some countries (Israel,...)

..and now concentrate on the fine sound you hear in your computer, and as you are listening to this fine sound your eyelids start, start to...

just information.


greets,

phanthomas

:kitty:
Message: Posted by: MichelAsselin (Jan 19, 2002 06:43PM)
If you want to grasp a feel for hypnosis, get hold of a copy of They Call It Hypnosis, by Robert Baker. If you want to perform Ormond McGill would do fine.
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Feb 4, 2002 08:43PM)
Thank you all!
:devilish:
Message: Posted by: fordkross (Feb 5, 2002 10:18AM)
While the McGill works are classics. The best current [comparitively] is by Jerry Valley
The Errickson books are wonderful if you arew interested in and have a back ground in therapy.
from
Ford
Message: Posted by: cmansfield (Feb 7, 2002 09:29PM)
"Stage hypnosis even is forbidden by law in some countries (Israel,...)"

So is "creationism" by some, that doesn't make it real

:)
Message: Posted by: amagician (Feb 7, 2002 10:34PM)
Hypnotism is restricted in Tasmania to medical practitioners, Reveen could not do his hyp here when he was here years ago. I did hear that one stage hypnotist was bringing his show down. Don't know how he will get on.
I know someone who didn't believe that hypnotism was real showed his methods to another performer who has since helped a lot of people with weight, smoking and maybe other problems.
My take is that there is a potential for helping or hurting people with the techniques - probably what we get out of it depends on our mindset when we use it.
BTW Please don't let religious themes intrude here. I respect others according to their actions, their beliefs (or lack of them) are their business.
Message: Posted by: Rodan (Feb 15, 2002 09:12PM)
Here in New South Wales (Australia) Hypnotherapy and Stage Hypnosis are permitted. There is no registration.
I was lucky enough to do a training in Hypnotherapy with Ormond a few years back and as part of the course he did a stage show.
Blew the socks off everyone there.
His books are full of gems as has been noted above by others.Particularly for Stage workers. He has heaps of suggestions for presentation which are useful for any performer. Including dealing with 'nerves' etc., using self hypnosis.
Erickson's therapeutic techniques were unique to the man. He 'read' people beautifully and was powerful in his presentation. Whole schools have built up based on his work.

If you are interested in the experiences of an experienced worker and the funny and not so funny things that happen on stage, see if you can find a copy of "Sleep you *****s" By Martin St.James. He's a famous Australian Stage Hypnotist.

Also if you want the real stuff on speed inductions and fantastic therapeutic techniques, find anything by the late Dave Elman.
Message: Posted by: Fon (Feb 16, 2002 06:05AM)
I have to agree "The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism" by Ormond McGill is a fab book for a beginner

Fon
Message: Posted by: Stevosapprentice (Mar 12, 2002 04:07PM)
I would Have to recomend The How-To-Book of Hypnosis by Tom Silver and Ormand. I think it is excilent. I got it 3 days ago and I have already made someone unable to bend their arm. It was amazing. It is a very good book and I wish you luck. :bikes:
Message: Posted by: Paradox (Aug 25, 2002 08:20AM)
Years ago I read Bob Baker's book THEY CALL IT HYPNOSIS. He is very skeptical and claims hypnosis per se doesn't exist, but all thru his book I couldn't help asking myself what it was he was talking about that allegedly didn't exist. In other words, they call ?WHAT? hypnosis. What is the "it" he's talking about & wrote a book on?
Message: Posted by: shrink (Aug 25, 2002 12:14PM)
[quote]
On 2001-10-02 09:43, JaquaiGul wrote:
Start with the "tricks" that seem like hypnosis. You must convince people that you have the power. Once they believe, you can talk them into anything. Last Christmas my wife’s office had a professional stage hypnotist perform at the Christmas party. He bombed because no one believed he could do it to them.
[/quote]

I don't think that was the reason he bombed. Who knows he may have been pretty bad. Or more likely there was either a small audience or everyone knew each other.

When everyone knows each other sometimes they are much more reluctant to be hypnotised. And you can't generally (although there are exceptions) hypnotise anyone against their will. :handcuffs:

There are other variables to like social class etc.

[quote]
On 2001-12-31 08:02, DenDowhy wrote:
Jon,



Hypnotism is not Magic. It is an art form which can be used for good. The hardest thing I have to do is convince people hypnosis is real and it is not what people have preconceived ideas about from stage performances. (Hence, the dislike from Professional Hypnotists.)






Once one believes Hypnosis is a "trick" to make others act like ducks, lovers, dogs, etc., they cease to believe hypnosis can do good in many areas, especially in the motivational area. It’s like telling people penicillian is Magic.



There is a big difference in what is real and what is humor, especially when a known medical usage of Hypnosis is destroyed by those who play with it as a joke.






When it comes to making money, I refuse to use my talents as Hypnotist for entertainment purposes, that is my choice. I just know if anyone of them were asked if they would like to use hypnosis to correct a problem or habit, or for motivational training, they would think of your show.

It would be hard to convince them otherwise of the value of Hypnosis.



It’s a difference of opinion, and that’s all it is, an opinion.
[/quote]

I respect your opinion but in my experience I find the exact opposite. While doing hypnosis shows I get quite a number of requests to work with members of the audience. I personally believe without stage hypnotism the public would not know about hypnosis and therapists would not be in business. They owe the awareness that the public have about hypnosis to the stage worker.

Ive never ever had a problem with convincing anyone that hypnosis is not a trick or that it will help them overcome a problem. When someone comes to me for therapy the whole emphasis is on their problem and how to overcome it. Hypnosis is just one of the tools I use nothing more. And by the time they have left they are in no doubt I really just don't see a problem there. Perhaps you try to much to convince people about hypnosis rather than focusing on the real outcome?

As for motivational training etc....these are two different markets and require two different approaches. It's a marketing problem that's all.

[quote]
On 2001-11-07 13:06, yakandjak wrote:
Alright, I’ll ask. What’s a galavonic skin thingy and does it have a fetzer valve? :shrug: :confused: :shrug:
[/quote]

It's a completely useless piece of (just my opinion) equipment..a more skilled hypnotist would get much more information by observing non verbals. And depth of trance isn't the main factor in the success of treatment.

While books are good for background you really can't beat a good training course.The only way to really learn hypnosis is to invest in a series of training courses by different organisations with different approaches.

Then your books will become much more valuable to you.

[quote]
On 2001-12-31 10:07, p.b.jones wrote:
Hi,

I was interested to read that you had certification in hypnotism. How did you get this? In our country (UK) and I thought it was the same there in the US, there is no official qualification (goverment accredited)

only non-accredited by self appointed organizations which are not really a qualification at all just a Scam. You might just as well make up an organization and print the certificate yourself, in much the same way you can buy doctorates in virtually any subject you like for a few pounds/dollars.



Am I wrong about this?



phillip
[/quote]

Basically what you say is true that at this time there is no formally recognised certifications. But there are some good schools and some good training courses out there. After that its up to you how you continue to develop your skills.

Many insurance companies recognise certificates and will insure you for public liability. You can also get a NHS or Bupa reg number so that Doctors may refer their patients to you.

So although what you say is true it is slowly becoming accepted in the mainstream. I have had referals from Doctors although up till now not on NHS. I've had doctors as clients to.

A good hypnotist doesn't create any reliance on either himself or a machine. You don't need a machine to relax. There are many hypnotic and meditative techniques that do that without the aid of a machine. If you want to incorporate a machine in your sessions to tell your clients that they are relaxing then that's fine. But that is the only use for one.

Training someone to go into trance or meditatve states by listening to their own inner processes is much more useful and fosters no reliance whatsoever.

There are dangers associated with hypnosis. Some people can react badly on stage. Some people are very difficult to wake up. I have heard of ambulances being called because the hypnotist couldn't waken the subject out of trance. Ok the worst thing to happen is that they will go into natural sleep eventually and wake up feeling fine. But I think its a good idea that anyone thinking of moving into this field should seek out some training first. Apart from the safety aspect it could be lead to some very embaressing situations happening.

And if Hypnosis doesn't exist how do you explain complete amnesia after someone has had the "trance" terminated? Is it an every day experience to have no recall what so-ever for the previous two hours? A situation that occurs frequently. At least in my experience. :idea:

Of course people like Kreskin will say it doesn't exist or he wouldn't be able to make a living from it.

In some respects it is a normal state to a hypnotist who practices it on a daily basis. The "mysticism" has gone. There are so many incredible things we take for granted in t hs world only because they happen everyday.
Message: Posted by: Thoughtreader (Aug 26, 2002 10:11AM)
Experience - YES! Training - YES! Dangerous - NO, except where there is a continuing perpetuation of the myths of hypnosis including how dangerous it can be. Unqualifies so-called therapists are dangerous as are unqualified duffers onb stage, but not the actual, REAL process of hypnosis.

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
http://www.stores.ebay.ca/abstagecraft
Message: Posted by: shrink (Aug 27, 2002 07:40AM)
Yes I agree....hypnosis is not dangerous. But there are dangers in mis-management of subjects on stage and in the therapy context.

While in trance it is easy for someone to be hurt physically while doing a "stunt", or falling off a stage. It did happen over here and the theatre was sued for a lot of cash. I think the damage was a fractured hip.

In therapy it easy for an unexperienced therapist to awaken strong negative feelings that have been buried away and not know how to deal with them.

It's not special ...just like the sun rising and the sun setting everyday. Or your heart beating away.. pumping the blood through your viegns....thats not special...thats so easy you don't even have to think about it. :babyface:
Message: Posted by: Peter695 (Sep 1, 2002 01:40AM)
As evidence of the existence of hypnosis, I would think that hypno-anesthesia would be a more compelling arguement than some I see presented. Still anecdotal, but a bit stronger than some. Or the Esdaile state could be offered as more than or different from the usual state.

Either way, there is some interesting therapeutic work being done with those living with chronic conditions to either heal or increase substantially, the quality of life of the client.

To address the original poster's question, http://www.omnihypnosis.com and http://www.kevinhogan.com offer good tapes on the use of hypnosis as a therapeutic tool. http://www.donmottin.com offers a set of tapes aimed at those wishing to learn stage hypnosis.



Peter
Message: Posted by: Paradox (Sep 11, 2002 06:16PM)
Special state or no special state of consciousness, it IS a state of consciousness---on that everyone seems to agree. Everyone, that is, except the Baker Bunch. Maybe I'm wrong, but I got the impression from reading Baker's book that he & his cohorts deny that ANY state different from so-called "normal" consciousness exists or CAN exist. You have only to read Willaim James to realize that so-called "normal" consciousness is only ONE form of consciousness available to us all, and---as someone here says in their signature---just because you can't detect it now doesn't mean you'll NEVER be able to detect it.
And yet again, WHAT is the state or lack of state, or condition or lack of condition, that the Baker Boys refuse to call "hypnosis" ? And WHY are they so vehement in their objections to the term "hypnosis"? What term would they use instead?
I'm still asking the question "They call WHAT hypnosis?"
Message: Posted by: openatlast (Sep 11, 2002 08:57PM)
the biggest danger lies in potential lawsuits for the embarassing stuff hypnotists put their subjects through on stage.
Message: Posted by: Peter695 (Sep 11, 2002 09:43PM)
Openatlast,

Which hypnotist(s) have you seen put their participants through "embarrasing stuff"?


Peter
Message: Posted by: Paradox (Sep 12, 2002 07:57AM)
Couldn't "close your eyes and imagine" be construed as an induction? Back in the 70s when I worked for a biomedical research firm, I devised what I called a "Nine Word Induction". I've never told it to anyone. It's not enough to make a "book" or even an instruction sheet out of, except maybe by adding the explanation of why it works. On top of that, since it's so short, it's bound to be bandied about almost instantly. Perhaps someone writing a new hypnosis book would include it. Anybody?
Message: Posted by: Thoughtreader (Sep 12, 2002 10:16AM)
One of the biggest objections by qualified "Hypno" people is that "Hypnosis" is a misnomer coming from the greek word "hypnos" meaning "sleep" which hypnosis is the furthest thing from it. While hypnosis DOES in fact exist, the media has mislead the public into beleiving what it isn't. That is the biggest problem facing true practitioners at this time.

It is for this reason that it is b3est explained that "Hypnosis and the hypnotic trance as most people have been lead to beleive does not exist!"

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
http://www.stores.ebay.ca/abstagecraft
Message: Posted by: xersekis (Sep 12, 2002 10:31AM)
I'll offer my two cents.

Hypnosis is not a state. States don't exist. We call things states but we are in error.
It is normal human functioning or normal human processes at work.

For example what we call the sleep state. That which some people manage to get 8 or more hours of - is not a static or steady state but a process. It begins moves through cycles and ends or terminates in normal waking consciousness - which is not a static state either but comprised of processes. In normal waking consciousness we are able to concentrate, be distracted, remember and forget things, and progress through a variety of emotions - also not states but processes. They arise and subside by a combination of kinesthetic sensations within our body, our mind, our awareness. We tend to label them as anger, happiness, frustration, sadness but they are not things. Nor is hynosis a thing.

A good hypnotist is simply one who is able to direct attention and direct these processes helping lead people into areas they normally go in and out of through out any day. It is the utilization of these processes for a directed purpose - either therapy and self imporvement or for entertainment and stage shows.

Some different principles may apply in the use for stage or for therapy but can be utilized in both.

This is why the hypnosis - it exists or it doesn't is a meaningless argument. It is used by those who consider hypnosis a thing - like a chair or a table. It isn't.

It is the ability to direct and focus one's attention and senses (thoughts, behaviors, abilities) toward the accomplishment of a task within a given time frame. It is natural and we do it all by ourselves anyway.

When someone else is directing us we call it hetrohypnosis - implying there is a director and a follower. The "hypnotist" has no power over the follower or subject - but a very skilled hypnotist can do a many great things utilizing suggestion to aid or benefit another person.

In the same way that con men can convince unsuspecting people to believe just about anything - that is not unlike what is done with hypnotism. The difference being that with hypnosis for self change etc. it doesn't start with the premise that a con does - that it is untrue.

Hypnotists merely work with common processes to everyone - only they are more skilled in knowing how to work with these processes and suggestion than the average person.

I hope this makes sense. 2 cents by Rex

Enjoy!
Message: Posted by: Peter695 (Sep 12, 2002 01:03PM)
This is a subject that may possibly never be proven in any conventional way. Rex brought up a good model when he introduced the idea that thoughts are not real. Actually, when a thought occurs, there is a molecular event that takes place and the thought is as real as neuropeptides. But is it REAL?

All of the definitions of reality, hypnosis, state differences etc. change and shift according to, in part, context. The boundaries and definitions are soft.

Allow me to illustrate. Put a fish in a tank with a glass partition in the middle, (or anywhere). The fish learns this boundary by bumping into it. Remove the partition and the fish will continue to respect the boundary as if the partition were still there. Now is the boundary real? If the fish swims quickly into the now only cognitive boundary, will that set off a chain of internal events that will result in a bruise on the nose of the fish? Quite possibly. Is the boundary real? If you measure the reaction of the fish, differences in it's chemical balance that match those differences that were there when the fish actually swam into the partition, is it real?

Is the placebo effect real?

The other issue that is almost always presented when discussing hypnosis is that of control. I would argue that the hypnotist does have a great deal of influence with the participant. Well, does a cognitive therapist have control? Probably. Does an M.D. have control? Sure. All the control a client or patient are willing to give them. Is all of this powerfull? Yup. A lot of it depends on the experience that the fish had with the partition. Did he hit it with full force the first time or did his tail brush up against it? In other words, something is going on. And, yes, changes from one state to the next have been measured.

If you really want to have a discussion about the reality of nearly anything, you have to have some ground level agreements to get anywhere. Otherwise the discussion sounds something like: "Is not". "Is too"...

If you agree that the tools available to measure brain activity, skin differences, chemistry of the body are valid, then hypnosis exists. If you agree that certain anecdotal evidence is acceptable such as anaesthesia, reduction of bleeding, phobia management, the management of chronic pain, then you must agree that hypnosis is real.

Weather or not it comes down to premature cognitive commitment or not doesn't play either. That may be a large portion of most sessions involving hypnosis, but it just doesn't explaing it away.

Thanks for the air time.


Peter
Message: Posted by: xersekis (Sep 13, 2002 01:41PM)
Hey nice offering on PCC and the nature of reality Peter.

As a clarification - when I say they don't exist I don't mean they aren't real - or percieived as real. I mean we have mislabelede them or as you aptly point out make a premature cognitive commitment about the nature of them.

An incorrect label causes us to look and notice things along a certain set of parameters, just as a correctly applied label does. But the outcome may be very different because of what we use to operationalize our "look into"

We are governed by our perceptions and whether they are actually real or merely percieved as real may not matter at all.

After all believing is seeing and vice versa.

Again very nice articulation Peter I enjoyed it very very much.

Enjoy!
Rex
Message: Posted by: Peter695 (Sep 13, 2002 06:12PM)
Thanks Rex.

I took license.

I really thought you meant that thoughts are intangible, not palpable.

You're the master on this thread.


Peter

("PCC" - Philosophy, Cosmology and Conciousness)?
Message: Posted by: shrink (Sep 13, 2002 07:15PM)
You could argue that states don't exist however it is useful to label certain processes as nominalized states.

For example you can learn from someones' external behaviour that they are in an "angry state" and adjust your behaviour accordingly. Likewise on stage participants do go through certain "states" which can be observed and used to the performers advantage. States exist or don't exist according to whatever model of the world you may be using at any particular time. Nominalization and De-nominalization are both useful depending upon the context.

Con men can persuade their victims to believe certain ideas may be true and can create deep rapport with them. However inducing complete amnesia for what has gone on for two hours previously or any of the other classic hypnotic phenomena is something very different. IMO
Message: Posted by: Paradox (Sep 13, 2002 07:36PM)
Rex,I could be wrong about this, but you seem to be defining a "state" as meaning the same thing as "static". Calling it a "process" is probably more accurate. I just assumed that everyone understood that "states" included "processes" and that reality per se (which is to say, perception per se) is constantly changing. *That's* the only thing unchanging about any "state" of consciousness or of anything else, the fact that it's constantly changing.
Am I making any sense? Please correct me if I'm wrong...
Message: Posted by: The Bear (Sep 16, 2002 06:18AM)
I think to some extent we are playing with semantics when using the word 'state'. I certainly agree with Rex that hypnosis is not a 'thing', but I do feel it's useful to use the phrase 'state of hypnosis' in a similar sense to when we might say 'state of depression' or 'state of elation'.

I'm unsure whether hypnosis actually constitutes an altered state of consciousness, in the strict scientific sense, but a study done by Stanford and Harvard universities seems to support state theorists to some degree.
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/september6/hypnosis-96.html
Message: Posted by: Paradox (Sep 16, 2002 08:16AM)
Anyone who thinks hypnosis "doesn't exist" or or can't be detected as being any different than normal waking consciousness should reed Hypnosis: The Application Of Ideomotor Techniques by David B. Cheek, M.D. In Chapter 6 (entitled "Trance Phenomena"), he gives no less than SEVENTEEN indications of varying levels of trance states.
Message: Posted by: Millard123 (Sep 16, 2002 10:20AM)
The disagreement between State and Non-State theorists revolves around whether there is a measurable difference between a hypnotized person and a non-hypnotized person. There is no disagreement about whether or not hypnosis exists; both sides agree that hypnosis does exist. They disagree about whether hypnosis is a different “State” of mind when viewed from a physiological perspective.

A brief statement of the situation is that the physical responses of hypnotized and non-hypnotized persons are indistinguishable from one another. Measures of pulse rate, blood pressure, respiration rate, and pupil dilation, sensitivity to changes in physical pressure, temperature, light, sound, smell, and taste are all identical for the two groups.

This hardly means that hypnosis does not exist; it is simply an objective observation of physical responses.

Millard
Message: Posted by: Peter695 (Sep 16, 2002 02:44PM)
That's interesting, Millard123. May I ask where you got your data.


Peter
Message: Posted by: Millard123 (Sep 16, 2002 04:41PM)
Please see “They Call It Hypnosis” by Robert A. Baker. In chapter three of this book you will find a large amount of research by both state and non-state theorists including references to their published research.

Millard
Message: Posted by: Peter695 (Sep 16, 2002 06:37PM)
Millard123,

Thanks for getting back to me.


Peter