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Topic: New version of the Opium Coin from Kreis magic
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 25, 2008 12:29AM)
http://www.kreis-magic.com/product/coin/?lang=en


Video showing Opium Coin made from US half and reproduction of ancient Japanese coin.

Kotah aka Ronald Dayton
Message: Posted by: Starromeo (Aug 25, 2008 05:16AM)
Do you know how we could order them?
Message: Posted by: Mark Rough (Aug 25, 2008 06:29AM)
You can order them right from that site. Just click the "order" tab at the top of the screen, fill out the check list of what you want, fill out your information, and hit submit. They'll send you an email confirming very quickly, and then an email with payment information within a couple of hours.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Starromeo (Aug 25, 2008 07:03AM)
Thanks very much.
Message: Posted by: Jeff O (Aug 25, 2008 09:34AM)
It looks like a nice quality set, but does anyone make opium coins in dollar size with Peace dollars?
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 25, 2008 11:02PM)
Jeff, the answer to your question is no. Sasco, Inc. used to make a version of the Opium Coin using Walking Liberty halves with their pseudo-oriental brass coin.
KOtah
Message: Posted by: Jeff O (Aug 26, 2008 11:30PM)
Thanks, KOTAH. I guess if I want it bad enough, I'll have to go custom. . .and not pay the utilities.
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 27, 2008 03:20AM)
I can't understand why this set has not yet been made in silver dollars (Morgans would be so great!!)... It's been on the market for some time know, and people really like the trick. It's not as if it was something new and manufacturers would not want to take the risk manufacturing it in dollars and losing money...

It's a highly visual trick, and you only can do it close-up at a table, which is a pity. I tried, a few times, to perform it in a room for about ten people, and every single time people had to come very close to me to see the effect... What a pity...

There really seems to be a demand for the dollar size, so I really hope someone will start manufacturing it in dollars...

Just a bottle thrown at sea... ;)
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 27, 2008 06:52AM)
The problem may be the disparity in the size of the coins. The replicated Japanese coin is not dollar size. I would think they might consider using the Walking Lady Liberty or other half dollar size coins if enough requests were sent in.

Ron
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 27, 2008 07:09AM)
Maybe...but it's not THAT difficult to find Chinese/Japanese coins (with a hole in the middle) that are the size of a dollar coin, is it??? And even if so (I'm pretty sure I already saw dollar-size Chinese coins on the net - in fact I own a few, but they are not silver coins). Why not simply manufacture them? It should not be so much of a problem...

Ben
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Aug 27, 2008 07:51AM)
Who owns the rights to this gaff?
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 27, 2008 10:22AM)
KOTAH (R. Dayton), I guess...
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 27, 2008 01:22PM)
I never sold my rights to this coin. Dealers are permitted to make them / sell them and pay a royalty. At the bottom of the video clip, it says:
"Combination of a half dollar and a Wado Kaichin coin. Magician is holding two half dollar coins in his fist. When the palm is opened, the coins have changed into two of Chinese coins. He has nothing other than the two of Chinese coins.
Officially approved by the creator, Ronald Dayton."

Opium coin was created eighteen years ago.

Kotah
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Aug 27, 2008 02:05PM)
So how would it work if one wanted to commission the gaff in another coin combination? Would the gaffer contact you to work out the royalty payment?
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 27, 2008 02:15PM)
If you intend to go through Kreis Magic, I have royalty arrangements with Nakashima Kengo. With other coin effects potentially on the table, I am satisfied with the arrangement.

Kotah
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Aug 27, 2008 03:08PM)
What about commissioning Lassen or Schoolcraft?
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 27, 2008 06:04PM)
You understand, of course, what you've just said. You want to go to someone else who is unauthorized to make this coin, thereby costing me my due royalty. At least, that's the way it sounds. IS that what you are saying?! What part of "never sold my rights" didn't you understand?
You look like a decent sort. I can't believe that is what you intended.




Kotah
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 27, 2008 06:37PM)
I guess rutabaga was just asking if Lassen or Schoolcraft (or others maybe?) were allowed to manufacture the gaff... It sounded more like a question to me... And he has his answer.

I love this gaff, but again, it's a pity that it's only available in Half Dollars... Please do something. There sure are a LOT of people interested (I already know more than half a dozen friend magicians who are!)...
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Aug 27, 2008 09:46PM)
Kotah, please re-read my earlier post where I refer to the gaffer [Lassen, Schoolcraft, whoever] making royalty payments.

I ask because there are some beautiful dollar-size chinese coins available from Lassen for instance that would combine with a Morgan dollar to make a gorgeous set.
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 27, 2008 10:41PM)
OK bear with me, I tend to get offensive. IF Lassen wanted to approach me with an offer I "Might be open to it. I say might because there is an off chance ; sales of one might hurt sales of the other. It could be a slippery slope to walk.

I would check with all parties involved, and make a decision based on the feedback

Part of the beauty of the Kreis coin is the replicated ancient Japanese Wado Katchin coin Bigger is not necessarily better. Even for a close up item.


Kotah
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 28, 2008 03:25AM)
Come on...! Of course bigger is not always better... but we're talking here about a VISUAL effect... How could bigger not be better if people hardly can see the smaller version...

I assure you that I have performed it several times for a bunch of people (ie cabaret magic) and EVERY SINGLE TIME people from the second row right to the back asked what happened and only saw the transformation AFTERWARDS... which really is a pity for a visual trick which is supposed to be seen on the spot...

No, really, I can't see ANY argument in favour of the half-dollar size. The reason that it does not exsist is clear and comprehensible: it would be hard work to invest in a dollar-size version, although I assure you that A LOT of magicians would be interested. The half-dollar size version is selling good so why bother manufacturing a better version? It's a pity. But I'd probably would have reacted the same way if I were you...

I was happy with my purchase and I repeat it it's REALLY a BRILLIANT idea but now I tend to regret it because I only can do it close-up for 4-5 people at the most. Anyway, don't take it personally, but as you said it was invented 18 years ago, it means that in two years time the rights for the opium coins will be over... So anybody will be allowed to manufacture some... in Dollar-size... Maybe it should be worth considering that and get some more royalties? ;)
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 28, 2008 07:15AM)
Please site for me the legal prescidence which states that 20 years is the cut off date for rights to something a person has created; opening the door for someone else to make an unauthorized version. I would be most interested, my lawyers would be too. Iam sorry if you have regre ts. THey call it close up magic for a reason. Sounds like you may have been performing micro magic. GEt custom work if you need larger coins. PErhaps some one might make them in three inch coins or larger . You say don't take it personally; but Opium coins are mine, and I do.

Ronald Dayton
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 28, 2008 07:34AM)
Man! Hey... Slow down... Looks like an 8-year-old kid looking after his toys... Ok it's your invention and yes it's a really good one, but don't over-react...

Your agressivity helps me not to take your attack ("micro magic"...) personnal. The fact is it's too small to see, that's all. For a table of 3-4 people it's ok, but for over 5-6 people it's not. And it's not just my opinion, it's my experience of people telling me that that speaks for itself. And other magician friends tell me the same.

A patent is only valid for 20 years (as I told you in my message I'm also a consultant for a law firm specialised in patent law)... Just wanted to let you know, but I guess your lawyers already told you...

I don't intend to have them custom made. Anyway it wouldn't be right to do so. And I wouldn't care writing that down here if I intended to do that. It's your business. Maybe manufacturing it in Dollar-size would be a good business for you, that's all...

PM'd you...
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 28, 2008 07:58AM)
Hey man slow down? After 54 years of involvement in magic; I am very protective of my toys. IF you or anyone wants to equate that with acting like an eight year old child, that's up to them. For me it is the right and wrong / ethics in magic.
a recent proliferation of theft has helped to bring the bizarrist magazine, the ORACLE to an end. Just because something may be legal does not translate to ethical.

Ronald Dayton
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 28, 2008 08:02AM)
I know and as I told you in my last PM I completely agree... But it's not a reason to over-react... PM'd you...
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 28, 2008 08:14AM)
I PM'd you as well goldeneye, may cooler heads prevail.


Ronald Dayton
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 28, 2008 08:25AM)
:)
Message: Posted by: Judah Vee (Aug 28, 2008 10:00AM)
So I decided to buy a set...... Hope they are up to par as I have a set of quarters I got YEARS ago and they are not the best.....
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 28, 2008 11:33AM)
IMHO, I think kotah is protective for a good reason in all this. He has established a proper pipeline that works and while it seems he does see the demand for another version it could compromise what has worked now for him for years on such a wonderful coin set. Personally I don't blame him as all this stuff can get very sticky and go very wrong and become quite nasty...See the Digital Dissolve debacle as it pertained to original effect inventor, Steve Dusheck for reference. It was not pretty and probably never would've been so addressed or corrected without unending cries for justice here on the Café. The fight was long, dirty and hard and quite disrespectful to Steve, his more than 50yrs as a creator/practitioner/performer in magic, and his family, who remained a gentleman throughout the theft, challenge and ordeal. His very human and warm side did not stop enterprising individuals from ravaging this and many of his fine works.

I know that none of you fine gentlemen here mean any such harm but sh*t happens, trust me I've witnessed it and it ain't pretty.

Anyway, it would be nice to see a larger dollar set (even bigger) at work as it is clearly more visual as seen in something possibly relative like this...Just beautiful! :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6xnoNGPT3g

Oh well, maybe one day but certainly not at the expense of the creator and his blessings about it. That's what having the rights to something is all about, whether we like it or not personally.
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 28, 2008 12:02PM)
Mb217, I certainly appreciate your comments. Steve and I shared a column in MUM for a while. I have reams of his original hand written routines We often brainstormed on ideas for the projects of others such as Larry White. Steve is definitely a creative force. I wishhe would actively return to magic. Perhaps theft was one reason he took a break?
I Believe anyone ordering the Kreis set will be impressed by the quality.
Rest easy Judah Vee. THankyou all for your interest.

Ronald Dayton
Message: Posted by: Judah Vee (Aug 29, 2008 07:29AM)
I've liked some of the other Kreis magic I have gotten, so I am sure that they will be nice!
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Aug 29, 2008 10:54AM)
I don't see what's wrong with it in half dollar size. I'm certainly not looking to do something like this on a stage. The whole dollar sized thing supposedly being more visual is blown way out of proportion. Saying the difference between a half dollar and a dollar is that "they can't see it" is a load of hogwash. I use basically only halves, and I've never ever had a problem with people not seeing something, unless I messed up and did not display something right.
Message: Posted by: Judah Vee (Aug 29, 2008 11:57AM)
I partially agree with Josh...(Good luck on the honeymoon!!!) I have ONLY worked in halves and have never had an issue with someone not seeing what I was doing. BUT, the option for dollars would be nice for people with larger hands. (not mine)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 29, 2008 12:34PM)
To be honest, I use halves also for the most part, but it's hard to deny the greater visibility when you watch Rick Merrill do his thing in the vid I posted. That was not on any stage, that was in someone's living room. Just a few specs, and it was highly visual, right up close, and got even more visual when he brought in the Jumbo coins. I'm sure he could do it with halves, but it wouldn't have looked as nice as what he used there in close quarters.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Aug 29, 2008 12:47PM)
That's true, MB, it was in a living room, but I'd bet the routine was made for a parlor/stand-up venue, not necessarily close-up magic. Also, video is a whole different thing.
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 29, 2008 03:06PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-29 11:54, Joshua Barrett wrote:
I don't see what's wrong with it in half dollar size. I'm certainly not looking to do something like this on a stage. The whole dollar sized thing supposedly being more visual is blown way out of proportion. Saying the difference between a half dollar and a dollar is that "they can't see it" is a load of hogwash. I use basically only halves, and I've never ever had a problem with people not seeing something, unless I messed up and did not display something right. [/quote]

I'm sorry, Joshua, but it's not only my opinion that the trick done in halves is not very visual for parlour magic. I've done it several times, and EACH time people had difficulties in seeing the transformation (except, of course, for the people in the first row).

The problem also is that the difference of contrast between the half dollar and the Chinese coin is not that big...which is less the case with Rick Merrill's coins.


When I use Dollar coins I never have that kind of problem, and my hands are not particularly big.
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 29, 2008 08:42PM)
Too hard to see? You'll recall Doug Henning opened a nationally televised special with the Fickel Nickel. Close-up workers never complained about my effect; Crackerjack Love in which a nickel changes into a gemstone ring on the female spectator's ring finger. I am not arguing the point, just stating facts.

Ronald Dayton
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 30, 2008 04:23AM)
Man...did I complain about the EFFECT? No, I complained about the SIZE (see, sometimes it's a question of size after all... ;) ). I use the Opium Coins in close up, and they're really fine; but for parlour magic, it's just too small, and it's also a fact since it happened to me all the time.

Concerning the television special, I've seen it. And with a camera, you can zoom on the effect, and of course millions of people can see what's happening. I haven't learnt yet how to zoom in on my hands, i.e. make them bigger so that everybody sees better ( ;) ), and that's why bigger coins would help... :)
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 30, 2008 09:03AM)
A lawyer and a magician, man; goldeneye, you are as tenacious as my friend Michael Weber. You have worn me down. I am currently arranging to have Kreis make the Opium available in dollar size if it is possible. I will post again when I know which way the mop flops. For now, I need a nap!

Kotah
Message: Posted by: Judah Vee (Aug 30, 2008 09:25AM)
Ever the stone grinder, goldeneye!!! LoL.... Here's a neat tidbit: Nakashima Kengo of Kreis Magic is sending me the Opium Coins for me to inspect PRIOR to me paying. How about that? And if I don't want them, he said to send them back.....I pay just the postage. This is a totally cool way to do business in the magic field! I applaud them!!!


'POOF'
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 30, 2008 11:17AM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-30 10:03, KOTAH wrote:
A lawyer and a magician, man; goldeneye, you are as tenacious as my friend Michael Weber. You have worn me down. I am currently arranging to have Kreis make the Opium available in dollar size if it is possible. I will post again when I know which way the mop flops. For now, I need a nap!

Kotah
[/quote]

I didn't say I was a lawyer... I work as a consultant in a law firm specialised in patent law... That's not the same (I'm an engineer who works with lawyers who work on patents).

Great news concerning the dollar-size (hopefully, it will be Morgans!!!)! Let us know!
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 30, 2008 11:20AM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-30 10:25, Judah Vee wrote:
Nakashima Kengo of Kreis Magic is sending me the Opium Coins for me to inspect PRIOR to me paying. How about that? And if I don't want them, he said to send them back.....I pay just the postage. This is a totally cool way to do business in the magic field! I applaud them!!!
[/quote]
This also happens to me from time to time, Judah! It's a good sign, usually...means the product is of top quality!
Message: Posted by: Judah Vee (Aug 30, 2008 11:47AM)
I can honestly say that in the field of magic, I have never had this happen. But it's nice..... I could have saved a lot of money if more Coiners had done this!
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 30, 2008 03:04PM)
Oh, yes, indeed!! I wish every dealer did that... To be more precise, it's happened to me maybe once or twice a year these last few years.

Some very respectful dealers (in fact, I only have one in mind) offer that you return them the items in case they do not please you or you think you won't use them. And then, some dealers offer the same thing on specific items. That's great!
Message: Posted by: Jeff O (Aug 31, 2008 02:17PM)
To all those dollar size skeptics (he he): It may not just be that the half dollar size is too small to see (each to his own, though), but that dollar size coins seems so huge to many laymen that "there is no possible way that he could have done that with those huge coins!"

At least that is my philosophy, and I'm sticking to it.
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 31, 2008 04:51PM)
Very true. A good point, Jeff O.

That's also why I exclusively use dollar size coins when I do coin magic. When you vanish huge coins for ex, it's more impressive than vanishing smaller coins... even if, for us, there's no difference.
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 31, 2008 10:45PM)
Gentlemen, a question if I may. Years ago, I took internal parts down by hand; 400 button inserts for 200 sets of my Ultimate Cigarette through Half.
At the time, David Roth said the coin offered the best of both worlds; being shown front and back before, during and after the effect. Do you feel it was more impressive to a lay audience than a cigarette through quarter, or would it have been more impressive if I had done it in dollar size? No matter really because this discussion has resulted in some interesting contacts by some equally interesting names in magic.
I look forward to your comments.

Ronald Dayton
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Aug 31, 2008 10:58PM)
Gentlemen, again, the original Opium Coin got its name due to a story line routine that went with the effect. In brief, it told of the great opium wars in china and of how the Government dealt with those trading in it. Execution on the public square. A single bullet through the brain, which some believe is symbolized by the single hole in the center of the nation's coin.

Food for thought, or the bizarrist story teller if nothing else.

Kotah
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Sep 1, 2008 01:51PM)
I must admit you have a point here, Kotah. If you also use the Opium Coins for the cigarette through quarter (or half dollar), the coin doesn't need to be that big because it's mainly for real close up (you're already limited by the size of the cigarette)...

But if, like me, you use it mainly for the impossible transformation half-dollar into Chinese coin, which is incredibly convincing because of the hole, then the size of the coin can matter because it may be performed for a larger audience.

Don't take it like an attack (really it isn't), but performing the cigarette through coin effect AND THEN showing that there is a hole in the coin (ok, ok, it also changed...) is a tiny little bit anticlimactic... Of course the coin has a hole in it because you just pushed a cigarette through it... See what I mean? Some people might even think they haven't seen the effect very well, and you just swapped coins at the beginning... Having a bigger coin would prevent people from thinking this.

What I like most is really the transformation. But for the original routine, of course, the half-dollar or quarter size is perfect.

Just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Sep 1, 2008 04:48PM)
Goldeneye, I don't take what you said as an attack. I asked for your opinion, and that of any others who wished to chime in. You did, and I thank you for your addition input.

Ron
Message: Posted by: Jeff O (Sep 1, 2008 11:49PM)
Why not make a Sharpie through dollar coin then? Cr*p. . .just lost the rights.
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Sep 2, 2008 01:44AM)
Thanks, Ron. :) The transformation using the Opium Coins is really awesome! One of the best coin transformation I've seen so far...
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Sep 2, 2008 12:48PM)
[quote]
On 2008-08-29 16:06, goldeneye007 wrote:
I'm sorry, Joshua, but it's not only my opinion that the trick done in halves is not very visual for parlour magic. I've done it several times, and EACH time people had difficulties in seeing the transformation (except, of course, for the people in the first row).

The problem also is that the difference of contrast between the half dollar and the Chinese coin is not that big...which is less the case with Rick Merrill's coins.


When I use Dollar coins I never have that kind of problem, and my hands are not particularly big.
[/quote]

I can understand that in parlor. That's why I would not do it in parlor, just like I wouldn't do color-changing knives or any other close-up trick.

There is no sense doing coin tricks just to be doing coin tricks if they don't fit the venue.
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Sep 2, 2008 02:38PM)
Yes, sure! :)
Message: Posted by: Mark Rough (Sep 5, 2008 09:11AM)
Mine are sitting at the post office as we speak. I'll have them by 4:00 or so this afternoon. Very excited!
Message: Posted by: Mark Rough (Sep 5, 2008 04:30PM)
Hey folks, I just got these and posted a review in the review area (duh). I like 'em!

Mark
Message: Posted by: Judah Vee (Sep 6, 2008 11:02PM)
Got mine today....Great quality!!!! They also match the coins on elmwood or hocus pocus, pretty closely!!! I like them !!!!

I should also mention the way they were Packaged and sent to me: IN a small clear box, with a CUSTOM molded foam insert to hold them safely. Kudos to them again....
Message: Posted by: Rick11 (Oct 10, 2008 05:14PM)
I'm wondering what is the difference between the new verison and the old version? Would the new version be different than those currently sold on Ebay?

Rick
Message: Posted by: Starromeo (Oct 11, 2008 02:44AM)
The chinese coin in the new version looks 10 times better than the old version. At least , it looks like a "coin".
Message: Posted by: Mark Rough (Oct 11, 2008 10:02AM)
Also, the gimmick is the tails side of the half dollar, which makes it much harder to see. The Sasco version used the head side and was about as obvious as a fox in the henhouse.