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Topic: Petition!!!
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 7, 2008 07:42PM)
Let's continue Matthew's good idea!!!! Go sign this!!!!

Just mention you will not buy anything from the sponsors of this show!!!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stopthemaskedman/


As Matthew said, let's send 10000 signatures!!!!

Eric
Message: Posted by: Illusionist11 (Sep 7, 2008 07:43PM)
We already realized that this would just do worse than doing nothing about it.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 7, 2008 07:45PM)
Stop thinking like this! If we do not do anything, they will present it anyway!!!!! We've got [b]nothing[/b] to lose!!! OK?! This is stupid thinking!
Message: Posted by: Illusionist11 (Sep 7, 2008 07:48PM)
Yeah..but if we fail..that's just more people that will find out about it...and more people that are going to watch..I guarantee you that we can't stop it.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 7, 2008 07:49PM)
What in the world could possibly be worse than having are trade secrets to all of the country?

The petition does not mention the network or the name of the show.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 7, 2008 07:51PM)
Another good point Matthew!!!
As Dai Vernon once said "magicans stop thinking too soon!"
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 7, 2008 07:55PM)
How about guys like Burton and Copperfield...Or Angel???!!
Can they do something against it???!!! Have they tried?!

[b]They[/b] are the [b]big[/b] names in the field! Can someone contact them???!!!
I know for a fact that Copperfield once presented the Twister effect! Or a DeKolta chair...
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 7, 2008 08:13PM)
Look at this:

http://www.myspace.com/the_masked_magician

Take a close look at his friends list. It really makes me sick.
Message: Posted by: SillverFoxx (Sep 7, 2008 11:43PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-07 21:13, Matthew W wrote:
Look at this:

http://www.myspace.com/the_masked_magician

Take a close look at his friends list. It really makes me sick.
[/quote]
I see a lot of porn stars and people whose pages are set to automatically accept friends requests... they may not know he's on their list.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Sep 7, 2008 11:59PM)
Creating and circulating petitions against these things draw more attention to it. One of these specials gave away linking rings a few years ago. How many of us are still using them? They also exposed the Table of Death illusion. I sat in a room full of laymen a few weeks ago and they all gasped when it was presented by Kalin and Jinger. There is enough magic out there to keep going, people will forget this in a few months. I'm really not at all concerned at all about these things.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 8, 2008 03:04AM)
Hi Pepka,
I respect your opinion , but if anyone do nothing, it will be continue ans continue again. With a level ever higher.

in France, we have won : the TV program will never be on the big french program. And we didn't heard that a lot at TV . It didn't draw a lot attention to it, for sure. But only a little program on cable has bought it few years after (little part of audience). It can be done in USA, if YOU WANT. IF YOU DON'T WANT, you let the door open. It will never stop.It will be increase.

You give the example of Table of death, which was explained in the past... There is many improvements possible for this effect. But not for : a twister or even the ZigZag, and you think that everyone will forget the deceptive bases method ? If it more than an illusion, it is a method, used in so many effect. And that is more easier to remember than a complex illusion like the Table of death.

and again, I'm sure we will be surprise on the level of exposures, far higher than the 3 first series.

And If we need wait 10 years to re-perform a trick, it is very sad.

Anyone in USA magic circles has 'balls''...

Stephane
Message: Posted by: pepka (Sep 8, 2008 03:17AM)
Look, I've got plenty of balls, I keep them under my cups. All I'm saying is what a lot of professional ENTERTAINERS have been saying for years. Secrets are only tools. This is why a master performer can go and entertain with almost anything. Including a method which has been widely exposed. Do I really like these specials? Well, no, aside from the usual horrible explanations given for illusions such as a forklift levitation. Look, people forget. Many laymen ask me what I thought of the exposure specials and I ask what secrets they learned, and they can't remember a thing. What do they remember? Magicians looking silly and raising a fuss.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 8, 2008 03:55AM)
I've got plenty of balls under my cups ???? I laugh to die hahahahahahahahahahahahaa
Good joke.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 8, 2008 03:59AM)
I think you don't understand or don't know about the actual illusions, and there number (120). not the old forklift levitation.

Maybe many laymen forgot explanations, but if there is again and again exposures....You under-estimate them sometimes...I can give the exact contrary :

I asked a old friend (not seen since 10 years, we happy to meet him :) ) and the FIRST thing he said me when he spoke about my career is : What do you think about the program on TM C ,with a man who explain the tricks ? I said : you know , it is old tricks and there is lot of mistakes. Magicians didn't do like this, or have far modern method totally different. and tricks is not important, only entertainment is important etc etc... He answers me : Maybe, but I know now how you did the last time I saw you when you cut the girl in 3, and when you was inside the crate (NB : 10 years ago ! Zig Zag, Mismade and subtrunk ). This guy don't work in show business. He is a good plumber... Maybe it is only 15 % of laymans who remember that, but it is too much.

I'm not sure that the petition is a good way. Contacting the sponsors is maybe better. What makes me mad is that the IBM consider that it is not a problem. The problem is that they let the door open to do what VAL want. And it is a shame.
Message: Posted by: haywire (Sep 8, 2008 05:04AM)
Contacting the sponsors is the only way to affect a change in the broadcast of these specials. Yes that may draw more attention to it, but really, after hearing about boycotts and the like most corporations would not want to advertise in the future, cutting off the source of funding from this and therefore ending his chance to have any future television shows.

Personally, I think its despicable that this low life second rate failed magician did these specials. I also think its despicable that people within our community, like snap illusions helped him do it by actually supplying a lot of the illusions he is using in these upcoming specials. I'd say a boycott of them for helping this idiot is REALLY a good idea.

Personally, I would never buy a product from them now, not that I would before since they seem to have a problem with making and selling ripoff illusions.

As far as what to say when people ask, I generally tell them there is 10 methods or ways of doing almost every trick, so when this idiot exposes one method, we magicians simply switch to another method. This is not exactly true but I think its better than letting people think they know the methods I personally use.

I wish someone who is on here, who is a lawyer would chime in about the possibility of a class action suit, both against Mr. Valentino and against the networks which broadcast this show. That would sure get their attention, and could force a legal means to stop the broadcast of this and future shows.

For those that don't know, a class action suit is when a large group of people get together and sue someone for damages. I think there is definitely a legal basis for this being possible in this case.

Its not as crazy as it sounds, and here is why...
As an example, lets say I have to stop using two illusions I paid 5,000$ for because Mr. Masked magician exposed them, making them useless. Next, I will have to buy two more illusions to fill that time in my show, costing me another 5,000$
that's 10,000$ I just lost due to this shows broadcast.

Now what if every magician similarly affected joined the class action suit for their damages, money lost and time/energy lost because they had to change their shows as a direct result of this shows broadcast ? I should not lose 5,000$ of my hard earned money that I invested in my props just because this failed magician chose this route to fame. Its not fair, and I am certainly losing money as a direct result of his actions.

Theoretically, they could be sued for millions and I'm pretty sure especially if it was a jury trial, they would lose. Just imagine a jury being told about this guy breaking his oath of secrecy. There is no denying what he is doing with this shows is certainly unethical. I think there is a very good legal basis for this being possible, and no jury in their right minds would disagree that magicians all
over the world are losing their time and money as a direct result of this show.

This mans unethical actions would be enough to turn any sane jury against him. He could not deny breaking his oath since he himself hypes that in his show. If say 500 to 3,000 magicians all got together and sued them, the amount of money they
could sue for (AND MOST PROBABLY WIN!) would be tremendous.

Hit em in the pocketbook, where it hurts, and this madness will most certainly end. This legal method would also set a precedent and insure that future fame seeking failed magicians will be too afraid of getting sued to do any similar show.
People can lose their assets, their cars, their homes after being sued for a great deal of money and losing. If this suit worked, no one would risk it in the future.

I do not agree with people who say simply ignore him and he will go away. that's what people said last time these shows came out. We ignored him, and he did go away,but only for awhile because now he's back and exposing many many more illusions than ever before. He will just keep doing this until we as magicians
do something to stop him.

Just my thoughts,

Steven
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 05:54AM)
Pepka,

You say that a petition will only attract more attention to it. How?!?! The petition does not name the show or the network.

This is not a petition directly against the show and to have it pulled. It is against the sponsors. The sponsors are the reasons it is still happening.

I am not holding a gun to your head telling you to sign it, it would be nice if you did, though. Sitting does not do anything but let it go on.

This is not only about the secrets. It is about careers and livelihoods that are being destroyed. These are people that have careers that can be seriously hurt in a half hour.

I doubt anyone, even you would go out and do a trick that was just exposed the night before.

Lets not let this happen to us. I don't want what I do to be looked at as a puzzle, or worse, a joke. I want it to stay as a form of entertainment.

Yeah I'm ****ed. Telling me I am wasting my time doesn't do anything to help.

-Matt

Also, people, stop making death threats and jokes. It will only cause trouble. It only makes us look bad. I don't want to see Valentino dead, I want to see the mask and exposure put to rest.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Sep 8, 2008 06:02AM)
How could someone be sued for exposing a magic trick? Unless you signed a non-disclosure agreement when you purchased the prop, I believe you have every legal right to do whatever you want. And that includes going on TV and explaining how it works. Magicians already have a tough time copy-righting tricks, I seriously doubt a lawsuit aimed at exposure would go anywhere. The best way to fight this is improve your performance so that method is proven wrong, even if it's the same one exposed on TV.

There is a famous story told by Mike Skinner, (I believe.) He was working in a magic shop in the 70's during Henning's heyday. The day after a Henning TV special someone came in and wanted to purchase the trick Doug did, "The mystery of the silver rings." Mike asked him if he would like the 10" mystery or the 12" mystery. He made his purchase and did not want to pay for lessons. He returned a few days later and demanded a refund. He said these are like a kid's toy, some of them are welded together, and this one has a gap in it. "I wanted the mystery of the silver rings, like Doug Henning did." Mike apologized and gave him a full refund. Now do you get my point? The secret is nothing without a decent performance to back it up.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 06:27AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-08 07:02, pepka wrote:
How could someone be sued for exposing a magic trick? Unless you signed a non-disclosure agreement when you purchased the prop, I believe you have every legal right to do whatever you want. And that includes going on TV and explaining how it works. Magicians already have a tough time copy-righting tricks, I seriously doubt a lawsuit aimed at exposure would go anywhere. The best way to fight this is improve your performance so that method is proven wrong, even if it's the same one exposed on TV.

There is a famous story told by Mike Skinner, (I believe.) He was working in a magic shop in the 70's during Henning's heyday. The day after a Henning TV special someone came in and wanted to purchase the trick Doug did, "The mystery of the silver rings." Mike asked him if he would like the 10" mystery or the 12" mystery. He made his purchase and did not want to pay for lessons. He returned a few days later and demanded a refund. He said these are like a kid's toy, some of them are welded together, and this one has a gap in it. "I wanted the mystery of the silver rings, like Doug Henning did." Mike apologized and gave him a full refund. Now do you get my point? The secret is nothing without a decent performance to back it up.
[/quote]

Who said anything about suing? You did. I didn't. But you know what, if someone published McDonald's secret sauce, he or she would be sued. Whats the difference between sauce and illusion in this case? If you ask me, illusion would be worse. People will still enjoy the secret sauce, but the form of the illusion is changed from a piece of theatrical entertainment to a puzzle. The sauce is still a sauce.

Performance means nothing when an audience is going in wanting to bust you on your trick.

Quit arguing with me. You are telling me I said things that I didn't. And your ring story has nothing to do with performance, the kid in the story did not want to learn in the first place. He just wanted instant gratification.

Winning this war will be far from instant, it will take some time, but will be worth it.

This thread is about the petition. If you are not going to sign, to join in on the thread. This is about solving the problem, not hiding behind a stack of cups.

And yes, someone can be sued for exposing a magic trick. If it is patented you can sue. But most builders and designers don't want to do the community the favor of providing a little bit of protection.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 8, 2008 08:18AM)
Hi Haywire,

You say that Snap Illusions have built the props for the masked magician ?????? It is a big accusation, but..Is it real ? I know that his Assistant Revenge is a Snap Illusion builder, but I thought he had bought it somewhere (second hand maybe). Or maybe he gave a false identity or another name.

It can be interesting to know if SNAP knew or not when it has been build.
If SNAP owner knew, it is very absolutly ....I even don't find the word!
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Sep 8, 2008 08:38AM)
I am quite confident that the sponsors have intellectual property within their own industries that they want protected. I don't believe they are aware that they are supporting programming the promotes the infringement of intellectual property.

Dan.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 8, 2008 09:00AM)
This is the reply of IBM president Joan Caesar

Hi: Yes I agree that this is a terrible thing. I really can't understand
how anyone could do something that would hurt the livelihood of others. I
believe the most effective thing would be for everyone who really cares,
should send letters to Fox. I also believe that if people if different
locations got together a petition and sent it to Fox, they might think twice
about airing this series of specials. I encourage you to send a letter, ask
your friends to do likewise, and send a petition to Fox. I will do likewise.
Thank you for caring.
Sincerely,
Joan Caesar

I don't like this kind of reply..... Mrs Caesar don't know on what channel will be the serial.
In fact this is a kind of evasive answer a kind of protocol answer a kind of ohhhh I am sorry to hire about same bad thing ohhhh.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 8, 2008 09:07AM)
One bad letter represents a million viewers.... So 1000 signature will rep how many viewers... The networks sells advertising based on viewers..... So hmmm good idea?

We are better off not watching the show... Do not speak about the show and DO NOT BUY VIDEO TAPES...
Message: Posted by: pepka (Sep 8, 2008 09:34AM)
FINALLY someone agrees with me. Thanks Curtis. Matthew, I wasn't quoting you. Read Haywire's post. He talks about filing a class action suit based on exposure. I've stated my point, I think I'm done with this topic.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 8, 2008 09:34AM)
As I said if you do that is not well if you do this is not well so prepare the costume of clown for the next years because the secret methods will be just in your head.
in first series of this jerk he said in the last episode that a lot of peoples pay attention to computers and forgot the magic and he is the hero to make as the children to return to magic....Now all pay attention very very well to magic?
Now for what is well to have another exposed ....very simple for his pockets.
Anyhow in 1998 was too for hist pockets.
Do not forget the costume of clowns fellows ...if will expose again think to other job and let the magic for David Copperfield and others VIPs
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 8, 2008 09:43AM)
How France did it how ? is France better like USA to solve some problems ? seem to be

A lot of things are better in Canada even in Mexico like in USA ...I saw the documentary Sicko by Michael Moore

It seem you have a lot of problems there in USA people I think I understand why you couldn't succeed to stop this jerk ....if that system of insurance about Sicko is so poor and very very unright I understand a lot of things.
A lot of problems are not solved there is worst and worst day by day very sad.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 8, 2008 09:45AM)
Haywire a class action law suit will get the news station a reason why to talk about it... The show is already on E! Entertainment news....

Let it go... Who really cares...
We as a magic community will see increase bookings from our advertisements such as web, ads, and mailings.

I recall back in the late 90's I had clients phoning and saying we want to see a magician since we have been talking about the magic secret show in our office....


So it is a good thing... Just have your modern art, assistant revenge and subtrunk take a long VACATION...
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 8, 2008 09:59AM)
Curtis, this must be the most stupid I read on this site so far...

You are only thinking about you man! Think about others!!!
Ater 2 or 3 years from now we will have to forget about B-----, BA, Asrah, etc...

What a stupid way of thinking!!! Cannot believe this guy's post!!!
Once again this subject is for thoes who want to help, so Curtis and Pepka, you know what to do...
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 10:21AM)
I agree. To sit and hope it blows over, will only open us up for of this.

You won't help us collect the wheat or bake the bread, but I am sure you will come running when it is time to eat it.

One letter? Yes, but with how many signatures. If nobody signs, takes us nowhere, lets give it a shot. Rather than think that it will just do bad, which it certainly will not, lets think of the good it will do.

We need stop letting people step on us already and fight back!

This thread is about the petition and what good it will do, if you don't agree don't chime in, it will only hurt our efforts.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 8, 2008 10:26AM)
Is not about subtrunk or modern art or asstant revenge ...is about methods about things la deceptive b...e or stairs ...if they will know about base we will hide under a mirror , if they will know about mirrors we will hide under black art special lights and if will know about that we will hide in our house or in other job or under our little finger
Thanks to blaine and Angel and others the magic is a good bussines again but all these have an end ....the ppls look at magic and try to find the secret because they kow something and the trick on stage is very close to what masked jerk show them.ahhh and they found that the girl could be there because could fit because they understand from TV that if is build like that and like that and with light like that you could hide the girl there.
So I understand very well about if we do a lot of noise the masked jerk will be happy but if you don't do something smart enought I will repeat ...al methods not tricks ...read carefuly methods will be on youtube and on others tv networks in entire world. But if you think that is not so dangerous because you still have the coin in the bottle and works is fine.
Thank you
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 8, 2008 10:35AM)
So Magicque, Matthew and J.I.S so I should HELP to shine the light on this television show?
By letting the networks and the media know this show is a no no by a pettetion.... You think they are going to say OKAY the magicians are right... People will watch this show and bring in ratings....

IN the US television shows and radio shows go for shock VALUE... THis has some shock value.... By adding fuel to the fire it will be better.... You have lots to learn about Hollywood my friend.

HMM have someone thought of a logical solution? I have and I am trying to pitch it to the same network...
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 10:46AM)
Did you look at the petition, it does not mention the name of the program or the network.

If you don't want to help, don't sign or or even add to the conversation. Telling us to do nothing is just no help.

Oh, and by pitching a show to the same network will only say to them that magicians don't care and that it is alright. I would pitch something better to a larger network to pull viewers away from the exposure show.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 8, 2008 11:22AM)
Thanks Matthew! Now that's an intelligent comment!!!

Hey! We are magicians trying to give magic a break!!! Instead of arguing with us, try to help!!! Sign the petition!!!
Otherwise, hide in your closet and wait!

Eric
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 11:24AM)
I don't want this thread becoming a debate like the origami thread, either help solve the problem in a positive manner, or ignore this thread.

Arguing is just going to get everyone angry and upset.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 8, 2008 11:27AM)
I completely agree with you Matthew!

About 350 persons clicked on the topic right now, we should have got approximately 300 signatures!!!
Eric
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 11:30AM)
I wish that was the case.

Even if you think it won't do anything, please sign anyway. The sooner the number is reached the sooner we can give this a try.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 8, 2008 11:31AM)
Magicque,

Not arguing with you ... Just trying to point out that a petition may not be the way to go.... :)

We should put up our own some smoke and mirrors .
Wait,,, I do not use mirror for that trick... The mask magician greatest secret is a trick... He tricks the viewers to think that is how the magic is done...
But if we magician unit and take a stand and say that is wrong and prove it.... This would further magic as well as individual careers. THINK ABOUT THIS LOGIC...

Marque you can keep throwing insults towards me, but it is easy to hide behind a screen and you are so far left at times it makes one laugh.... But it does not further your cause....

Hence why many pros have not jumped into this topic....
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 11:35AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-08 12:31, magicofCurtis wrote:

But if we magician unit and take a stand and say that is wrong and prove it.... This would further magic as well as individual careers. THINK ABOUT THIS LOGIC...
[/quote]

Taking a stand can be signing a petition.

I guess the right way to go is to let the show expose our secrets and ruin the art, by pitching a show to them, which says "we don't care! air whatever you want!"
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 8, 2008 11:35AM)
Curtis, sign the petition and you'll become our friends!!! :)
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 8, 2008 11:46AM)
YOu guys are so not understanding what your actions will cause....

Read this and think how you can apply this to the situation...

Remember the rumor that McDonals was using worm meat instead of beef? How should the company respond? Traditional wisdom told it to refute the argument, so it did, with quite powerful logic (e.g. it said it had never used worm meat, was certified for its 100% beef use, and would be stupid to use worm meat as worms cost more per ounce than beef does!). However, information processing theory claims that such direct arguments simply reinforces the link between McDonalds and worms in our brain, despite it being false (as a result, people told survey researchers they did not believe the rumor, but McDonalds sales were still way down in the affected regions).
Instead, consumer experiment research concluded that Mc Donalds should work on weakening the link between itself and the bad worm thought, by either
1) strenghtening other links, eg from McDonalds to good times, fun for kids,...
2) establishing a positive link with worms (in the experiment, a confederate said: 'this reminds me of a funny fact: while in an exquisite French restaurant, I saw worms on the menu and got it- it tasted quite delicious)

While the latter may be too hard and risky to implement, Mc Donalds decided to go for the former solution and sales went up.

bottom line: it is always good to create/reinforce positive associations with your company or cause. Beyond that, whether or not you should refute the union's accusations publicly depends on how many people have heard about and believed it: don't wake up sleeping dogs, but try to target your refutation to influential believers.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 11:54AM)
I don't see what you are saying.

If you do not agree with us, please don't try to change our minds.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 8, 2008 12:49PM)
In short words do not screeam to loud or better do not screeam at all.
I would like to say again what is best to do but again will upset mr.Laszlo :)
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 01:40PM)
I don't think a petition is screaming. I think it is one of the quietest ways to bring a solution to the matter.
Message: Posted by: CCPCris (Sep 8, 2008 02:21PM)
Matthew W you made the comment to check out the Masked Magicains myspace, which I did. ANd as you probley noiticed as I did to, DC, Angel, Penn and Tellers and others were on his freinds list. But I will say this. This does not really prove anything. The reason is this. Anyone can make a fake myspace page, and pose as any celebrity in the world. A freind of mine made a fake Angel myspace page, and had tons of people convinced that he was in fact Cris Angel. The point is that the above mentioned magicians being a part of his freinds lists does not mean they are the real entertainers. How about trying to contact the above mentioned magians booking agencies and notifiting them that the masked magcian page is posting many magicians pages as a hint of endorsement. I know for a fact that if they respond to myspace that those are not the real enetertainers myspace pages, that MYSPACE, will remove them. Myspace has a strict policy about creating false accounts or ones that impersonate other people.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 03:28PM)
Okay, the Criss Angel one is from the criss angel website. The Jonathan Pendragon one, I have spoken to John about a show I met him at through that myspace.

I am just looking at the top friends, who knows who else is friends with him.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 03:45PM)
I went through his myspace page, and was shocked at what I saw!

I saw names of Café members! This is really upsetting. I do not want to hear anything about promotion and publicity. Why would anyone associate themselves with exposure like that is beyond me.

I won't list names, but if you just went through his friends list you would be amazed at what you saw.

I am really sickened by this. I thought this was magicians helping magicians. Maybe not.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 8, 2008 05:28PM)
Mathew,,,

Do you think we actually look at everyone who is on myspace?

I do not know 95% of people on myspace...

:)
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 8, 2008 05:29PM)
You're assuming that the names you saw on the page that are from here are actually "magicians". Posting, or even belonging to the Café makes one a magican as much as sitting in a hen house makes you a chicken.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 06:37PM)
I only looked at the names I recognized and it was a big list, I don't want to post names. Some even have magic products out and hold conventions.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 06:52PM)
I would like to know who posted as Valentino.

This is ****ing me off now. I am trying to do something and everyone is putting it down, and now I have to go and weed out bad signatures.

If you don't want to help, don't sign. But don't try to screw this up.

Magicians Helping Magicians? Really? That is not what I am seeing here.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 8, 2008 06:58PM)
I guess nobody else here gives a crap about magic.

None of the big shots here want to do anything. I would really appreciate it if you had nothing good to say or do, not to do anything with this.

I am taking my time to try and do something. I am tired of being put down for trying to do something about this. I don't get it. You don't need to make people feel bad if you don't agree with them.
Message: Posted by: gulamerian (Sep 8, 2008 07:51PM)
When Val Valintino started this nonsense in 1997 magicians were up set. Everyone said it would ruin their lively hoods. As far as I know no ones lively hood was ruined except Valintinos. The night after the rings were exposed I presented mine. I simply said "for those who think they know how it's done, I'd simply like you to watch." They were floored. In 1997 when the Zig Zag was exposed, I continued to perform it. The audience had no idea. When people would ask how do you feel about the exposures I simply replied that the show lied. Magic exposure has been been around for years. Exposure is like a bad storm, it must be waited out. The public soon forgets also there are those who do not watch because they simply do not want to know. Drawing attention to the exposure only feeds the frenzy. One has to take a lesson from history. Ignore it and it will go away.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 8, 2008 10:14PM)
Matthew, my friend, I guess you're pretty right...We seem to be about 3 or 4 magicians that don't want magic to be exposed the way it will be...
Hey!!! We are fighting against magicians!!! Can you believe it Matthew?! Or J.I.S.?!

So basically what our friend magicians here are saying is that exposure helps magic!!!! Oh yeah!!!!!

I cannot believe the stupid comments I'm reading here!!!

Ignore it and it will go away?! Exposure is like herpes man: It never goes away...
The only effect you are performing is certainly the Zig Zag so let other magicans keep their secret you idiot!
Message: Posted by: freefallillusion1 (Sep 8, 2008 11:37PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-08 20:51, gulamerian wrote:
The night after the rings were exposed I presented mine. I simply said "for those who think they know how it's done, I'd simply like you to watch." They were floored. In 1997 when the Zig Zag was exposed, I continued to perform it. The audience had no idea.

-------AND------

Exposure is like a bad storm, it must be waited out. The public soon forgets...[/quote]

Gulamerian, I have to disagree. I had exactly the same experience with my rings and TO THIS DAY, I can't pull out the rings without some in the audience pointing and telling each other that they "saw how that one was done from that guy...". Now, at the end of my routine, I have them fooled, no question there. BUT- the problem for me, and for you as well, is that we've had to do the routine defensively. At the start, the audience thought they had us. For those members of the audience, half the routine was lost because they were in that position at the beginning. Not exactly the best way to start a trick! When I perform something, I want to entertain all the way through. I do not want to be forced (again as you also were) to say "for those who think they know how it's done, I'd simply like you to watch." Really, you had no option- you HAD to begin that way because of the masked idiot!

And for those who say that exposure is like a bad storm and everyone soon forgets, well, I don't totally agree there either. You are correct in that one could probably do a shadow box today and get away with it. However, here's the situation that I am currently in: I have a huge run starting in October, which will coincide nicely with the premiere of good ol' Val's new shows. My plan was to end my brand new set with a killer version of the DeKolta chair. From what I hear, this is to be one of the first illusions exposed. Do you really think I can just go ahead and perform this, when a good chunk of the audience saw it exposed only the night before? Don't tell me that a good performance will pull me through- you know as well as I do that the DeKolta chair won't fly if the audience were to know that it's simply done with a t--p. Kinda loses something, don't you think? So in this case, how can I "wait out the storm"? The simple answer is, I can't! No time for that! I'm performing NOW! So, I now have to abandon the great sequence I had come up with and replace it with something that I hope doesn't get exposed.

Do I think we should throw a public fit and bring this guy more attention? No. I hope that no one even knows the show is airing and that it quietly just passes on by. BUT- do I think that we should just sit here and do nothing? Not a chance. I'm really bugged that this numbskull is doing this AGAIN and that he has dictated what I can and can't do in October. I'm quite perplexed that we as magicians are powerless to do anything legally. Are we sure?

Phil
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 9, 2008 10:16AM)
Phil, you put your finger on it!!!!!
Gulamerian, would you please change topic? pleasssssssssse!!!

But Phil, just remember that this program will once again be bought by other countries!!! It happened before! In Québec, they aired the four episodes!
There are a lot of tricks that magicans cannot perform anymore!

Imagine when the loser will show an Asrah! I cannot believe we will have to go through this one more time! Just remember that in the USA you are used to put people into court for any types of reasons!!!
In France the MM couldn't be seen by anyone!!!
You must do something!
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 9, 2008 11:07AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 00:37, freefallillusion1 wrote:

Gulamerian, I have to disagree. I had exactly the same experience with my rings and TO THIS DAY, I can't pull out the rings without some in the audience pointing and telling each other that they "saw how that one was done from that guy...". Now, at the end of my routine, I have them fooled, no question there. BUT- the problem for me, and for you as well, is that we've had to do the routine defensively. At the start, the audience thought they had us. For those members of the audience, half the routine was lost because they were in that position at the beginning. Not exactly the best way to start a trick! When I perform something, I want to entertain all the way through. I do not want to be forced (again as you also were) to say "for those who think they know how it's done, I'd simply like you to watch." Really, you had no option- you HAD to begin that way because of the masked idiot!
[/quote]

I was having the “Oh I know how that one’s done” remark given when I pulled out the rings long, long before any of the Masked Magician episodes aired. The linking rings is an old trick that has been exposed in countless books and magazines and has been a staple in many beginner magic sets. It was the first trick that was sold to me when I, as a non-magician , stumbled across my first magic shop. The masked Magician shows really has had no effect on my performing the trick at all. In fact I had an experience very similar to Gulamerian’s. I had a holiday party a week after the first show debuted. When I pulled out the rings I saw a kid turn to his mother and excitedly tell her he had seen how this trick was done. Naturally I picked him to help me in the routine. I linked two rings together and then promptly handed them to him to take apart. He, of course couldn’t as the trick didn’t work at all like the masked magician had told him it would. I eneded up fooling him more than I would have had he never seen the show.

[quote]
And for those who say that exposure is like a bad storm and everyone soon forgets, well, I don't totally agree there either. You are correct in that one could probably do a shadow box today and get away with it. However, here's the situation that I am currently in: I have a huge run starting in October, which will coincide nicely with the premiere of good ol' Val's new shows. My plan was to end my brand new set with a killer version of the DeKolta chair. From what I hear, this is to be one of the first illusions exposed. Do you really think I can just go ahead and perform this, when a good chunk of the audience saw it exposed only the night before? Don't tell me that a good performance will pull me through- you know as well as I do that the DeKolta chair won't fly if the audience were to know that it's simply done with a t--p. Kinda loses something, don't you think? So in this case, how can I "wait out the storm"? The simple answer is, I can't! No time for that! I'm performing NOW! So, I now have to abandon the great sequence I had come up with and replace it with something that I hope doesn't get exposed.
[/quote]

We have been dealing with exposure ever since Prevost and Scott wrote their tell all books back in the 16th century. Magic has survived.
I wouldn’t ever consider pulling an effect because it was exposed on a TV show. The first Masked Magician show had a viewer ship across the country so extensive that out of a hundred people in your audience may be one or two had seen the program. I can certainly live with thise odds.
These new shows are on an obscure network that no one watches and so the odds of having someone in your audience actually having seen these shows is quite small. I’m sure YouTube exposure videos will have a much higher viewer ship than this new special will. The shows ten years ago had Zero effect on the world of magic and so these new show will have even a lesser effect.


[quote]
Do I think we should throw a public fit and bring this guy more attention? No. I hope that no one even knows the show is airing and that it quietly just passes on by. BUT- do I think that we should just sit here and do nothing? Not a chance. I'm really bugged that this numbskull is doing this AGAIN and that he has dictated what I can and can't do in October. I'm quite perplexed that we as magicians are powerless to do anything legally. Are we sure?

Phil
[/quote]

Again the frst show had zero effect, why should this program be any different?
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 9, 2008 11:19AM)
120 effects will be shown. These effects will be sent to Youtube. The program will be sold to other countries.

Here,s your answer Payne.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 9, 2008 11:50AM)
Linking rings can be performed in a lot of versions, with new passes and complexes movements that the magician m.... even don't know or hasn't the talent to perform and show it. So it is right that his exposure give not a lot of problem.

But we speak about grand illusions effects !

And remember, usa is not the rest of the world. There is so much countries in the world who will buy and show the programm. Nothing do, and nothing doing by choice (with excuse : people forget all) is only a way to rassure you. Don't take ever your example, I can , like freefallilusion1, give exemple in contrary : Mismade is an effect easy to remember...
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 9, 2008 12:32PM)
Grand Illusion is different than effects based on sleight of hand, where there are dozens, if not hundreds of ways to vanish a coin, or hide it in your hand.

I can think of only around a half dozen ways of hiding a person. Some of them are impractical and not used all of the time.

If you don't think a petition will help and ignoring it will, stay out of this thread.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 9, 2008 02:37PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 12:19, Magicque wrote:
120 effects will be shown. These effects will be sent to Youtube. The program will be sold to other countries.

Here,s your answer Payne.
[/quote]

Much of the Masked Magician shows are on YouTube and it too was sold to other markets world wide. Magic is still alive and well.

We need to learn to accept the things we cannot change
Change the things we can.
And have the wisdom to know the difference.

Petitions and outrage only draw attention to this tempest in a teapot.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 9, 2008 02:46PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 13:32, Matthew W wrote:
Grand Illusion is different than effects based on sleight of hand, where there are dozens, if not hundreds of ways to vanish a coin, or hide it in your hand.

I can think of only around a half dozen ways of hiding a person. Some of them are impractical and not used all of the time.
[/quote]

Then perhaps that's part of the problem. Perhaps the age of the grande illusion is over and we will be forced to return to our sleight of hand roots. Perhaps we will develop new methods and actually be able to keep these secret this time. Perhaps illusionist will keep plodding on unchanged because these shows had minimal effect on the world of magic. Who knows?
All that's certain is that life is change and if we remain stagnate the world will pass us by.
We live in the information age and nothing is going to stop the secrets that many mistakenly believed to be secret from being accessed by anyone with a internet connection. That's life in the 21st century and we better get used to living with it as it's not going to change.

[quote]
If you don't think a petition will help and ignoring it will, stay out of this thread.
[/quote]

How republican of you :)
Message: Posted by: pepka (Sep 9, 2008 02:49PM)
Well said Payne! Matt, this is an open public forum. You don't really have the right to tell someone to stay out just because they don't agree with you.
Message: Posted by: Laszlo Csizmadi (Sep 9, 2008 02:58PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 11:16, Magicque wrote:
Imagine when the loser will show an Asrah!
[/quote]

Hey Eric,

Sorry to say this but you are late. The Asrah was revealed a little over 10 years ago by Herbert L Becker. He revealed about 10-15 illusions. In my knowledge he is/was hiding in Quebec. Sadly the last 25 years to many illusions were revealed. I never forget one interview with Lance Burton when he said. "I'm not mad at you Val". I even taped. It looks like it was not a big deal to him. They are must be friends.

Best,

Las
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 9, 2008 03:09PM)
Yes it is a public forum, but how many people need to say the exact same thing? I am trying to promote a petition, not start a debate.

I really hate to come of sounding rude or mean, but I am really upset with where people are taking the art of magic.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 9, 2008 03:14PM)
Hi Payne

with all my respect, how many illusions do you perform in your show ?
Grand illusion show is a sort of magic show. It need to be respected like others style of magic.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 9, 2008 04:25PM)
I perform zero illusions in my programs and in truth am not a great fan of them either. They tend to bore me as all too often they are simply presented as big box puzzles with little regard going into a storyline or logical reason as to why you'd own a bizarre looking box like that, let alone why you're cramming an all to willing assistant into one for the purposes of senseless vivisection.
Perhaps this is the reason that the creators of these exposure shows choose this type of magic for their programs. They simply view them as puzzles to solve because that's the way so many magicians present them.
Have illusionists subconsciously thrown down the gauntlet and unconsciously challenged the masses to figure their illusions out? With little in the way of theatrical structure and focus on entertainment over enigma the audience is left with little other recourse than to ask themselves "How is it done".
Magic tricks of and by themselves generally are not entertaining. It is the presentation and personality of the performer that makes them so. I fear for too long too many magicians have relied upon the mystery of their curious boxes to carry them through their show. Thus their terror at having their secrets (not that they were ever truly theirs) revealed as that is all they have.
This answers the question of why "the big boys" like Copperfield, Burton and the Pendragons rarely chime in on this topic. They realize that the secret, while important is not the be all and end all of magic.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 9, 2008 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 16:09, Matthew W wrote:
Yes it is a public forum, but how many people need to say the exact same thing? I am trying to promote a petition, not start a debate.

I really hate to come of sounding rude or mean, but I am really upset with where people are taking the art of magic.
[/quote]

Matthew, maybe we believe your petition might hurt us more than it will help? Ever thought of looking it that way?

Payne, Loving your point of view!
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 9, 2008 08:36PM)
I would like to know how think Eugen Burger for example about this thing.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 9, 2008 08:38PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 21:36, j.i.s. wrote:
I would like to know how think Eugen Burger for example about this thing.
[/quote]

Perhaps there is a reason why he doesn't do bozx tricks
Message: Posted by: gulamerian (Sep 9, 2008 09:22PM)
Magicque. In no particular order illusions I have or perform in my show. Zig Zag, Sword Box, Origami, Blammo, Broom Suspension, Square Circle Illusion Size, Light Fantastic, Metamorphosis, Duck Bucket, Wringer, Assistant's Revenge, Pagoda Screen Girl Production, Crystal Casket, Head Chopper, Fire Cage, Neon, Doll House, Modern Cabinet, Vanishing Radio, Asrah, Sword Suspension, Tip Trunk, Mystery of Three, Demon of Doom, Back Stage With The Magician, Mummy Wrap, I mentioned the Rings and Zig Zag as a point of reference. And I am the idiot?
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 9, 2008 09:22PM)
That truly is a poor way of looking at it.

Have you ever looked at it this way:

By doing nothing, it looks like it does not bother any magicians and makes it look like we condone exposure.


Payne, if I were to follow your theory and point of view, card tricks and close up are senseless too, right? Whats the point of putting a card in a deck and finding it again? Why are you putting a sword through your volunteers neck? Why cover the bottles with tubes. Why are you vanishing balls and making go under cups? Bicycle cards with red and blue diamonds and a guy with money on them look bizarre. All of the weird stuff is part of the effects. The box is to keep the assitants head from falling and rolling away, the cards help explain the story, we find the cards because we can. All of the props are used to build the entertainment around. If all of the stuff was weird and pointless, why are audiences seeing magic and hiring magicians? The entertainment. If we did not have the magic secrets we are just actors, comedians, and sideshow artists. Our secrets are what makes a line between magicians and just comedians and actors.


If we don't do anything, about exposure, it will only get worse. We can at least try to keep it to a minimum. Movie companies will never be able to end piracy, but they are keeping it at a minimum.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 9, 2008 09:47PM)
"Magicque. In no particular order illusions I have or perform in my show. Zig Zag, Sword Box, Origami, Blammo, Broom Suspension, Square Circle Illusion Size, Light Fantastic, Metamorphosis, Duck Bucket, Wringer, Assistant's Revenge, Pagoda Screen Girl Production, Crystal Casket, Head Chopper, Fire Cage, Neon, Doll House, Modern Cabinet, Vanishing Radio, Asrah, Sword Suspension, Tip Trunk, Mystery of Three, Demon of Doom, Back Stage With The Magician, Mummy Wrap, I mentioned the Rings and Zig Zag as a point of reference. And I am the idiot? "

You are even more idiot than I thought Gulamerian...You paid for all these effects and now you are willing to watch a low-life jerk perform your investments on TV without doing anything???!!! What a businessman!!!

Do you know how to read?! Some guys wroite here that if you don't want to sign the petition, click on another topic and try to sell everything you took the time to write here...Am I clear enough?
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 9, 2008 10:02PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 22:22, Matthew W wrote:
That truly is a poor way of looking at it.

Have you ever looked at it this way:

By doing nothing, it looks like it does not bother any magicians and makes it look like we condone exposure.
[/quote]

Or it makes us look as either the method they expose is wrong or that in the end the method really doesn't matter and that perhaps the true secret of magic is not the secret.

[quote]
Payne, if I were to follow your theory and point of view, card tricks and close up are senseless too, right? Whats the point of putting a card in a deck and finding it again? Why are you putting a sword through your volunteers neck? Why cover the bottles with tubes. Why are you vanishing balls and making go under cups?
[/quote]

Why indeed. Perhaps if more magicians tried to answer this simple question magic wouldn't be regarded as the second rate entertainment that it is today.

[quote]
Bicycle cards with red and blue diamonds and a guy with money on them look bizarre. All of the weird stuff is part of the effects. The box is to keep the assitants head from falling and rolling away, the cards help explain the story, we find the cards because we can. All of the props are used to build the entertainment around. If all of the stuff was weird and pointless, why are audiences seeing magic and hiring magicians? The entertainment.
[/quote]

Far too much magic is presented with the "Because I can" or the "we're supposed to have weird stuff so I don't need to justify it" type of attitudes. Sometimes this is enough butfar too many magicians stop there and never explore what could be. They are all far too willing to simplty accept what is.

[quote]
If we did not have the magic secrets we are just actors, comedians, and sideshow artists. Our secrets are what makes a line between magicians and just comedians and actors.
[/quote]

You say this like it's a bad thing. Perhaps if we valued the theatrical side of the craft more we could start being treated more seriously as magicians. We will never get the respect we think we deserve until we ourselves start treating the practise of magic with more respect.
Stop obsessing and focusing on the secrets. Learn to grow beyond them and discover the true art to performing magic.

[quote]
If we don't do anything, about exposure, it will only get worse. We can at least try to keep it to a minimum. Movie companies will never be able to end piracy, but they are keeping it at a minimum.
[/quote]

If we focus to much energy on trying to stop it it will only get worse. It will never go away but it will cease to grow if we fight what we can and ignore the rest.
Rising up en-masse only plays into their hands and gives them even more publicity.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 9, 2008 10:15PM)
Enough. I think I have enough.
Good night everyone!
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 9, 2008 10:25PM)
"Or it makes us look as either the method they expose is wrong or that in the end the method really doesn't matter and that perhaps the true secret of magic is not the secret."

You go and try performing a magic show without using any of the secrets or methods. What will you be doing without the secrets?


"Why indeed. Perhaps if more magicians tried to answer this simple question magic wouldn't be regarded as the second rate entertainment that it is today."

Who said magic is second rate? There are magicians with their own theaters and production companies, I don't see that as second rate. Why sing a song, why dance?


"Far too much magic is presented with the "Because I can" or the "we're supposed to have weird stuff so I don't need to justify it" type of attitudes. Sometimes this is enough butfar too many magicians stop there and never explore what could be. They are all far too willing to simplty accept what is."

You have posted a lot about the sword through neck and multiplying bottles. What logical reason can you give for what you do in those effects? Why are you making balls appear under cups?



"You say this like it's a bad thing. Perhaps if we valued the theatrical side of the craft more we could start being treated more seriously as magicians. We will never get the respect we think we deserve until we ourselves start treating the practise of magic with more respect.
Stop obsessing and focusing on the secrets. Learn to grow beyond them and discover the true art to performing magic."

I don't say it as a bad thing. The theatrical part of magic is making it look good, routines, costumes, outfits, staging, lighting, music.

People don't respect us is because we act weak against what people are doing to us. We need to show that we won't give in.


"If we focus to much energy on trying to stop it it will only get worse. It will never go away but it will cease to grow if we fight what we can and ignore the rest.
Rising up en-masse only plays into their hands and gives them even more publicity."

So lets fight what we can. We all can't go to the producers and network presidents, and we shouldn't, we need to the ones that actually are enabling it to happen. If advertisers won't pay, it wont be done again.

We can ignore the show itself, but the exposure cannot be ignored. It is happening and it does have an effect.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 9, 2008 10:44PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 23:25, Matthew W wrote:

You have posted a lot about the sword through neck and multiplying bottles. What logical reason can you give for what you do in those effects?
[/quote]

My sword through neck routine is perfectly logical. There is a reason for the sword and the stocks and a logical motivation for putting the spectator into the device. I get between eight and twelve minutes out of the routine and by the end of the trick no one cares a fig about how it is done as they are having too much fun taking part in the routine. If I just slapped the stock around a hapless assistants neck and pushed the sword through then of course everyone would be thinking that it just went around their neck or folded up in the handle as you've given them nothing more than a puzzle to figure out.

My Multiplying bottles too have a logical reason behind them. I'm using the tubes, bottle and glass to explain the finer points of quantum mechanics. Theres a reason why the bottles change places and multiply and again the audience is too wrapped up in the presentation to worry about the secret.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 9, 2008 10:52PM)
I too get 10 minutes from my sword through neck, but still you have not stated a logical reason for doing it.

So, are explaining quantum mechanics through something "you can do", or showing "you can do" quantum mechanics?

Magic is always going to be viewed as something "you can do", but the presentation is just the way you entertain with what "you can do." The audience is going to remember the "trick you did."

I have never been told about how I taught the audience how to make the "bandana" vanish, but the fact that I did.

For audiences, magic is the trick, not how you spent 10 minutes stretching out the process. The time in between the steps is the show.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 10, 2008 12:10AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-09 23:52, Matthew W wrote:

I have never been told about how I taught the audience how to make the "bandana" vanish, but the fact that I did.

For audiences, magic is the trick, not how you spent 10 minutes stretching out the process. The time in between the steps is the show.
[/quote]

Not necessarily true. There should be a balance between trick, effect and presentation. No one ever asks me to show them the sword through neck trick but always ask to see the Ram's Bladder Trick, which is my presentation for it. They remember it as a cohesive presentation not just a trick with a sword.

Have you read Fitzgee or Nelms yet?
Message: Posted by: JamesTong (Sep 10, 2008 04:31AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-07 21:13, Matthew W wrote:
Look at this:

http://www.myspace.com/the_masked_magician

Take a close look at his friends list. It really makes me sick.
[/quote]

You are right on this one. I wonder what can the petition do.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 10, 2008 07:18AM)
It seem that we are a few just a few who want to do something and a very lot the others who don't want to do soemthing from diffrent reasons I mean somebodyes don't care , somebodyes think that is better to do nothing because will atract the atentions to much and the ppls wil want to watch how a lot of illusions dies.
Ohhh is very clear for me that will be a change in thins world and this is not only about Masked idiot is about a lot of ways of reveals from media is about this century of very speed info is about internet ...the beautiful magic storyes will died ...in fact we all will be day by day very bad ....you know 11 sept changed the world ...now if you want to take a flight you must to have a lot of complicate things to do in airport because posible terorist strikes ...day by day will be worst and worst and in magic will be a change I am very sure and I think most of us will dissapear for other jobs and will remain some vips with very very unique magic with very specials secrets like Copperfield and others.
That's it very sad but when you see some very precious and legendary secrets illusions rentals by some idiots and played very wrong life on TV or revealed by others greed imbecils ...well you think that's a kind of change will happened very soon. 120 illusion are too much but not all are the money of Copperfield to could create theyr own illusion protected by a copyright .
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 10, 2008 07:55AM)
As I said worst and worst day by day ....now I just saw the explanation I mean the reveal of Kevin James amazing man cut.
I will not give the link but is not so hard to find it.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 10, 2008 08:17AM)
I could not help but laugh my way through that video.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 10, 2008 08:31AM)
Payne, if the MM exposes the multiplying Bottles or your Sword Through Neck and if one day you hear a 6 year-old kid yell "I know how it's done!!!!" and people start laughing, remember these 3 names: J.I.S., Matthew, and Eric...

As I said before, we need signatures and we need to stand on our feet.
I remember tyhat before he passed away, Gary Ouellet write a TV-channel a letter against exposure. One of our finest creators did the job. He must be spinning in his grave right now. Reading stupid comments like "I don't think a petition or this or that will help" makes me sick, really.

Just hope that some guys here that take the time to answer their stupid comments would know how to read. Just change topic if you don't want to help!!!

English is not my main language! I speak French! But I could understand CHANGE TOPIC!
Eric
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 10, 2008 09:02AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-10 01:10, Payne wrote:
Not necessarily true. There should be a balance between trick, effect and presentation. No one ever asks me to show them the sword through neck trick but always ask to see the Ram's Bladder Trick, which is my presentation for it. They remember it as a cohesive presentation not just a trick with a sword.
[/quote]

*EH!* (buzzer sound)

Without the trick and it's secret you cannot build the routine. The secret is what makes us magicians.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 10, 2008 09:16AM)
Payne,
The wise man once stated
"You can not argue with fools." :)

Curtis once stated:
"You can not argue with the dancing banana." :banana:

So Payne pick your fruit wisely.....
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 10, 2008 09:57AM)
Matthew,

What about the people think that your ACTION WILL HURT us? Is it okay for us to ignore them as you are stating that we should not ignore the masked magician because it is going to hurt us?

Never called you a fool or a fruit... Just said it is not wise to argue with one!
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 10, 2008 10:10AM)
The ones who think it will hurt us are not signing the petition, not arguing.

I don't think a petition will hurt us. We need to keep this stuff to a minimum. Movie studios are working to keep piracy to a minimum, why should we not fight what is being done to us?

Payne said:
"Rising up en-masse only plays into their hands and gives them even more publicity."

If we end what they are doing, they wouldn't be able use us for publicity.

Everyone seems to fight about knock offs, I don't agree with knock offs, but why fight that battle? That is something that will never stop.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 10, 2008 10:15AM)
Mathew,

Lets say only 1 million people know about the masked magicians show. Now lets say your petition makes it on E! Entertainment news and on lots of local news.... Now 100,000 million knows about the show...

HMMM.... How many people do you think will tune in NOW?
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 10, 2008 10:15AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-10 09:31, Magicque wrote:
Payne, if the MM exposes the multiplying Bottles or your Sword Through Neck and if one day you hear a 6 year-old kid yell "I know how it's done!!!!" and people start laughing, remember these 3 names: J.I.S., Matthew, and Eric...
[/quote]

I already get 6 year old kids telling me they know how it was done. That's what 6 year old kids do. If you can't handle a kid telling you they know how a trick works then you've got really poor audience management skills and perhaps being a perfiormer isn't your best career choice.

[quote]
As I said before, we need signatures and we need to stand on our feet.
I remember tyhat before he passed away, Gary Ouellet write a TV-channel a letter against exposure. One of our finest creators did the job. He must be spinning in his grave right now. Reading stupid comments like "I don't think a petition or this or that will help" makes me sick, really.
[/quote]

Is this the same Gary Ouellet that feature many trick exposes (some of them the intellectual property of others) on his World's Greatest Magic specials under the guise of "Teach a Trick" segments? Seems you might want to find yourseelf another spokesperson for your movement.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 10, 2008 10:52AM)
Very very wrong , you couldn't compare Gary Ouellet with masked idiot.
Dear Payne and Curtis I understand you very well ...your solution seem to be one of less worst thing and I would like for magic something better ...anyhow dear Matthew and Eric as you see nobody take care like you ...and please fellows we are the same baricade ...maybe is well to talk with Bill Palmer a little to send him an email
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 10, 2008 01:27PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-10 11:52, j.i.s. wrote:
Very very wrong , you couldn't compare Gary Ouellet with masked idiot.
[/quote]


But many people did. There was quite the outcry in the magic community when these specials aired. The outcry was enough for Tom Mullica to use it as one of the reasons he left magic and there are still people around today who think Mac King is a traitor to the cause for his many teach a trick segments.

This is one of the main obstacles in combating exposure. What exactly is it. It would be difficult to go into a court of law and tell them why one exposure show is worse than another without looking like a complete doofus.
Message: Posted by: Domino Magic (Sep 10, 2008 01:33PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-10 11:10, Matthew W wrote:

Everyone seems to fight about knock offs, I don't agree with knock offs, but why fight that battle? That is something that will never stop.
[/quote]

The situation with knock-offs is quite different. For one thing, a lot of people don't know the difference between the original product & the knock-off. By bringing the situation to light, then we as consumers can make an informed (and hopefully ethical) decision as to which one to purchase.

There isn't a problem with a petition per se, but what you have to realize is the magic community has no weight with a network. 10,000 signatures (if you're lucky) is nothing to them. Also understand, we're talking about "reality television" which is all about controversy. Petition, protest, complain, however you state it, you're helping to add to the controversy and ultimately this shows viewership.

A network also understands that there just aren't that many "magicians" (hobbyist, pros, etc) to make a difference. How many magicians do you think there are out there? A million or more? Quite a bit less. I think you'd be hard pressed to count 100,000 - 200,000 TOPS.

It's also in the network's best interest to air these shows because they know magicians WILL be watching. They can't lose.

The Masked Magician shows started airing when? About 10+ years ago. At least 1998. It's obvious that this show works for the network and the sponsors otherwise they wouldn't air more of them.

Now this also brings up the subject of sponsors. Will you continue to buy products from the sponsors? Over the last decade have you been supporting sponsors of past MM specials? Do you even know who they are/were? Do you continue to watch Fox?

Finally, let's not forget about The World Alliance of Magicians who's goal is (and I quote)[i]Dedicated to preserve the wonder and amazement of the Magical Arts for the general public, to protect the secrets of the magic profession from exposure and to reinforce the positive contributions of the Magical Arts to society.[/i]

Actually, yes you can forget about them because even with some of the top names in our business behind them, THEY even said it's not worth fighting the exposure and after a few years folded.

If signing a petition helps YOU sleep better at night, then go for it. Just don't be disappointed and waste too much time contemplating the fate of magic after this year's Masked Magician special and the one they will no doubt air next year as well.
Message: Posted by: Drew Manning (Sep 10, 2008 02:46PM)
Wow, that was lot get through, but I made it, so I'm going to chime in my two cents with a view point that hasn't been shared yet.

When a company buys adertising on TV or radio, they don't get to choose during which programs their ads air as a general rule. Let's assume I contract to buy 100 60 second spots over a two week period on the network for my product. The typical contract says 25 of the ads will run sometime between 6am-6pm, 50 in prime time 7pm-11pm and the reamining 25 will air in the over night slot from 11pm to 5am. I don't get to choose which night of the week or during specific programs. The only choice I have is time blocks.

As a result, my ads may or may not run during the time which everyone may choose to boycott and it was totally beyond my control as to whether or not the ads ran during the boycotted program.

That alone would render this petition ineffective if I were wanting to purchase TV ads.

If you wanted to send a petition, it would be better targeted to boycott the network who has full control over their lineup. However, as previosuly stated,the fuss that comes up from the petition may serve to drive more traffic to the show. Remember Janet's Jackson's Superbowl malfunction? How many people actually realized what they saw and caught it the first time? Probably less than 10% of the people who actually saw the incident. The rest of us who have seen it saw it on the Net or the censored TV shows when they talked about it.

Someone else mentioned class action law suits. Again, I just don't see that as a viable way to end the problem. Phillip Morris, US Tobacco and RJ Reynolds have all been hit to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars in class action suits in the past decade or so yet we can all still get a pack of Camels at the 7-11 if we so choose.

Also, if you are going to petition the networks, let's not forget to boycott the advertisers who run during World's Greatest Magic or Mindfeak because they teach secrets too.

At the end of the day, I am of the opinion that while exposure may ruin things to a small degree, the overall presentation skills of the magician will more than compensate for the lost secret if he's doing his job. How many of us have seen the big boys like Burton or Copperfield live and knew how most of the effects were done but were still blown away by the shown because of how it was presented?
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 10, 2008 03:28PM)
Is very clear that is not well to atract the atention ...I hate the fact just these tricks will be in short time on youtube where you could watch it how you want when, you want ...is like you need an explanation and youtube is the solution for everything.
So in other words very few peoples will see these series but do not forget that masked jerk will want very very very much as his show to be buy it by a lot of televisions and in some years all thse reveals will be on a lot of TV and again on youtube.
So?
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 10, 2008 05:29PM)
The solution to the YouTube reruns of this program is to monitor them and report them to MyNetworks TV as they will be in violation of that networks copyright and they should be able to get them pulled.

Don't view them more than one, don't make comments on them nor post about their locations as this only makes their numbers climb and encourages them to post more videos.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 10, 2008 05:39PM)
I agree with you on that Payne.

But I am certainly not going to be watching this years Magic Awards. Why would they go to MyNetwork after they are airing all of this exposure?
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 10, 2008 06:14PM)
Well well there are some video on youtube with reveales from firt serion on Fox tv
I think is very well to send fox tv an email to remove it from youtube
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 10, 2008 06:15PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-10 18:39, Matthew W wrote:
I agree with you on that Payne.

But I am certainly not going to be watching this years Magic Awards. Why would they go to MyNetwork after they are airing all of this exposure?
[/quote]

Contractual obligations. Most of these type shows run on multi-year contracts.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Sep 10, 2008 06:16PM)
That sucks.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 10, 2008 06:24PM)
I just click on this american TV and I found that these imbecils have some very interesting specials with magic and World greatest magic ...afterthat I found a special with street magic reveal ...Incredibile incredible rude.
How dare ...This tv must to stay away from any Worl greatest magic ...I haven't words to say how imbecils could be to show a beautiful art and afterthat to distroy it. What a stupid peoples could manage this network.
How dare
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 10, 2008 06:30PM)
How could be to warning this television that if they will continue with this kind of reveales will have closed door at World Greatest magic for life ???
The people who are responsable with this WGMA must to be warning to contact this TV no?
What you think ? or is again a bad ideea?
Thanks
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Sep 11, 2008 04:01AM)
I emailed to Bill Palmer and this is his answer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know if this Masked Magician is Valentino. It could actually be a
different person in the same costume. However, no matter who it is, my
opinion of him is the same as it was when the first series ran about a dozen
years ago.

Actually, this series will be broadcast on Fox, just as the first one was.

There is NOTHING that we can do about it. PERIOD.

There is nothing illegal about it. It is unethical, but the only way the person
doing the work can be punished is to expel him from any magic club he
belongs to. If he isn't a member of any magic club, then there is nothing that
can be done.

I got involved in it last time. I wrote to the sponsors. I put up a web site. I
fought against it.

Now, I'm tired of it.

So -- YOU pick up the torch. YOU fight the fight.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Sep 11, 2008 04:17AM)
[quote]That sucks[/quote]

Life sucks.

If you let it.

You can get bogged down in the negatives - or you can get on with the positives.

The Chinese say [quote]He who sits long enough by the water, will see his enemies body floating by.[/quote]

I choose not to devote precious energy to fighting wars that can't be won, or to sit around waiting for the satisfaction of my opponents eventual assured demise, but to get out there and live my life.

When you decide to redevote your attention to your magic and move it beyond this clowns sad exposure of cliches, I would recommend 'Sometimes the Jokes are Just for Me' by Master Payne and 'How to Become a World Famous Magician' by Rudy Coby, two wonderful and complimentary works which will fireproof your performance against this pathetic mans pitiful endeavours.

Destiny
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 11, 2008 10:51AM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-11 05:01, j.i.s. wrote:

Actually, this series will be broadcast on Fox, just as the first one was.

[/quote]

It's not on FOX, it's on MyNetworks which is the old unwatched remnants of the now defunct UPN channel
Message: Posted by: croman (Sep 15, 2008 11:55PM)
I'm mad/angry/sad/frustrated,....I don't know how to explain my moood today, but it's far from good.

I feel sick.

I just saw a commercial on mynetwork tv (i hope everyone on that channel dies)....

The Masked Magician is returning to TV with new episodes and new secrets :-( :-/

How can we stop this ??????

What can we do ??????

I feel soooo mad....
Message: Posted by: David Todd (Sep 16, 2008 10:46AM)
I'm in sympathy with a petition , but unless the petition has some leverage behind it , the network will ignore it . They don't care if 10,000 magicians are ****ed off . With no leverage the petition is just spitting in the wind . Public protests and petitions will only have the effect of drawing more attention to this show, which is what we don't want.

Better to target the network and the sponsors with real letters, (courteous, polite, but firm letters) , expressing disapproval and a commitment to boycott the network and it's sponsors and products unless they stop running the shows. If sponsors get enough letters from consumers who say they intend to no longer purchase the sponsor's products then that gets their attention. Companies live in mortal fear of alienating their customers and losing sales. That is what this is all about. They have to feel that it will have a negative financial impact on them. In the letter don't make it a big issue about you being a magician . Write as a member of the general public who is disappointed in how they are destroying the entertainment value of magic and say that you are disappointed that the company would sponsor this show and you will not longer be buying their products because of their association with show. And persuade all your friends and family to write similar letters . They need to hear from a lot of ordinary people, not just angry magicians. And stick to it. If you say you won't shop at Target or BestBuy or whoever sponsors these shows then follow through on it and really don't shop there anymore. Vote with your dollars. If Wendy's restaurant chain is a sponsor of this show then don't eat there anymore. Forever. (or until they agree to stop sponsoring these shows) . Let the local manager of the store know why you won't be shopping or eating there anymore. A boycott has no teeth, no leverage, if people don't [i]commit[/i] to follow through on it. (I mean follow through [i]for years[/i] , not just now while this is a hot-button issue. ) Does anyone in the magic community have the resolve to do that ?

Again, while I am in sympathy with the feelings and the goals behind a petition I also agree with those who have warned that creating a very public spectacle in protesting these shows only serves to draw more attention to these shows. The producers of the show will use lines like [i]"This is the show that [b]10,000 MAGICIANS DON'T WANT YOU TO SEE ![/b] What are they hiding ? Tune in tonight at 8:00 ... blah, blah, blah ...."[/i]

I admire the French magicians who have posted here that they were able to convince a Minister of Culture in France to get exposure shows pulled off of French TV , but we are unfortunately in a different situation here in the U.S.A. The French seem to place a much higher value on the arts and culture and preserving traditional aspects of the arts . I wish that my country (the U.S.A.) had a higher view of the arts, including magic, but the sad fact is that we don't. That's a longer term goal: change people's perceptions of magic by doing better magic. Make them see why it is something worth cherishing and preserving.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 16, 2008 11:43AM)
1) hi David todd
the programm is on a cable TV (TMC ) ...So it can be watch in France and certainly in Belgium...So the fight has been won 10 years ago, but not completly. Actually, the programm is visible on TV . BUT not on the big nationals channels only... In the future , we never know...There is 2 big private TV ...

2) I understand the position of american magicians. I just fight the idea of ''nothing to do at all is the best'' ;that is too easy. But I can admit that petition will certainly create the '' This is the show that 10,000 MAGICIANS DON'T WANT YOU TO SEE ! What are they hiding ? Tune in tonight at 8:00 ... blah, blah, blah '', that you spoke.

Actually, someone can say me if someone is doing something about the sponsors, or it is only an idea ? If someone try actually to do something, who ? and WHO are those sponsors ?

Cause I repeat, american TV programms will be sold everywhere in the world. We are all in the same boat, Europe, Asia etc... And in 10 years, it will be the 20th season, and the M.....Magician(s)will attack close up bases,dove working with double productions and invisible Har...., general magic, street magic, brand new illusions just created etc... And maybe with more money, and better presentation than the actual clown... If it works and if there is audiance, it will never stop.
Message: Posted by: David Todd (Sep 16, 2008 12:20PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-16 12:43, stephane_arnow wrote:

Actually, someone can say me if someone is doing something about the sponsors, or it is only an idea ? If someone try actually to do something, who ? and WHO are those sponsors ?

... If it works and if there is audiance, it will never stop.
[/quote]

I don't know the sponsors yet . If anyone has a list of the sponsors that would be good information to have so that people may privately contact the sponsors with respectful, well-reasoned, but [b]firm[/b] letters expressing disappointment that they would sponsor shows which tear down the art of magic and negatively impact many other magicians . Sometimes the list of sponsors will not become apparent until after the shows start to air.

[quote]"... If it works and if there is audiance, it will never stop."[/quote]

Yes this is a good point. Where will it stop ? I don't agree with the attitude of some magicians who feel that just because they do not perform big illusions that they are somehow "safe" . There has previosly been at least one "Secrets of Street Magic REVEALED" show with a Masked Blaine surrogate revealing things like coin in bottle principle, invisible deck, the raven , and other standard close-up work. When Bruce Nash (creator and producer of MM) runs out of big illusions to expose , what next ? Anything goes, so watch out Mr. Close Up magician if you don't stand in unity with your Illusionist brothers now.

And the worst impact is not exposure of particular effects , because it is true that the public has short memories and will not remember specific details, but what they will remember are general principles like : base principle, BA , mirrors, deceptive steps, levitation principles , etc. Widespread airing of these principles strips mystery away from magic in general and gives the false impression to the lay audience that magic is all about mechanical devices.

The only answer may be that as Jim Steinmeyer opines: "Exposure is inherently boring" . So there is not a large continuing audience for these things. I hope he is correct, but I expect he may be simply whistling in the dark. If lay audiences find exposure to be inherently boring then why this new crop of MM shows being produced now ? Will Steinmeyer (who I greatly respect) feel differently if Interlude or Origami or Modern Art are among the 120 illusions that Nash and his Masked Monkey plan to expose this time around ?
Message: Posted by: Drew Manning (Sep 16, 2008 12:39PM)
As a business person, I find that the vast majority of customer threats of courses of action against my business are empty threats. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've been told I was going to be sued, reported to the BBB or have the attorney general called on me.

That never bothers me because in none of those situations have I done anything to warrant the action other than enforce my rights under the terms of a contract that I signed with a consumer. Most often, these threats come as a result of the consumer not being happy with me for holding their feet to the fire. My point is, most businesses aren't going to care what you threaten them with and on top of that, even if they notice a dip in their sales, they may not be able to make the connection between the shows and the loss of revenues.

Again, unless the show specifies that it was borugh to you by XZY Co (ie think Clorox Bleach and Copperfield in the 80s)it is quite likely that when the network runs the commercials, they are merely fulfilling an advertiser's order to run X number of spots between 7-11PM as part of a package deal. They don't get to choose as a general rule during what program their commericals will run. As a result, assuming that consumers weren't the fickle type that they are and they stuck to any boycott they set out on, they would be unfairly punishing an advertiser for merely buying TV time to promote a product.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 16, 2008 01:07PM)
And it is what will happened if a solution is not find !
A solution, maybe not to stop it , but to limit his possibilities and his money.

the builder and the second hand sellers need to be careful those days when they sell something... An agreement for using the prop , and not expose the method on TV and public. And sorry, but it should be like this : A contact between the buyer and the seller. If it the prop is exposed on TV, pursuit law will be engaged. And the buyer need to sign it. Of course, it can be work for second hand, but it is ok for new props. It should be signed (sorry) even by the real builders, AND by the ripp off builders. No matter. A SELLING = promise not to reveal it on TV, with a signature. For all builders of magic. Even the worse.

If this little principe can respected (I repeat even by the non ethical builders, cause they build magic props after all, we can say what we want , and it is another debat), the Masked clowns and his production (who certainly bought it for him) signed. So no respect = law suit possible. EVEN if it is not a real deal (copy of an effect build without permission), the law pursuit and the money won SHOULD go in the real creator if it is an effect not public domain. If it is a public domain illusion, pursuit can be done and money won go in the pocket of the builder.
It can be done with help of associations like IBM or associations in different country.

SO A TRICK SOLD or an ORDER of different tricks listed on the list , in same time as the invoice = agreement. If the trick is exposed on TV by the buyer = pursuit law

Can we use this method and contact all the magic builders ? how do you feel that idea ?
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 16, 2008 04:02PM)
So who is going to pay for all this? Will a fund be setup that all magicians have to pay into or is it the sole responsibility of the illusion seller to cover his legal expenses? Or will there just be an ant-exposure surcharge tacked on to the price of every trick. Who will then administer this fund and dole out the required payments to the lawyers?
Will these contracts be universal or can someone buy an illusion in England and expose it in America? What if the producers simply have the illusions built from scratch in their prop department? There are literally tons of old illusions sitting around in warehouses that wouldn't be covered by this agreement as well.
So really a plan such as this, while a noble effort, for the most part is completely unworkable.
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 16, 2008 06:30PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-16 17:02, Payne wrote:

So really a plan such as this, while a noble effort, for the most part is completely unworkable.
[/quote]

But it would be a START... :)
Message: Posted by: Payne (Sep 16, 2008 07:40PM)
[quote]
On 2008-09-16 19:30, magicofCurtis wrote:

But it would be a START... :)

[/quote]

Have fun with that then :)

Getting magicians to agree on a tactic to fight exposure would be akin to herding kittens
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 17, 2008 03:54PM)
Payne I not totally agree with you.

1) Ok, as Curtis said, it can be a Start. I mean : since the day when aLL the magic stores and builders are ok with this principe,and sign for it, all new prop from a professionnal Magic house (but not the home made units of course) will be under this agreement. So it can be work. For pursuit law , it is easy to understand : The seller/builder/creator of the effect has the prove, by signature, that the buyer don't respect the agreement. So it can't loose in justice, and he can be help by association like IBM or association of magician around the world.

2) you said : who pay ?? No need to pay ! It is a paper that can be copied in 20 second with a copier, like a contact, and the seller make it sign in same time as the invoice. Even now with internet signature, it can be done by email easily !
Any magic store in the world can do that TOMORROW, and with pleasure cause they know the danger of the programm, and the loose the they business (illusions built explained = hard to sell !So they can do it ! I hope some builder here will read the post, for Example Jack Murray, Snap illusion, or who you want. The best or the worse , no matter. They sell magic : they make sign agreement even for Mouth coils or Gaffed card deck !and of course for illusions.

the problem: if the masked magi-bastar use the materiel from his producer ... it is the producer who can have law puirsuit.

by the way, I 'not sure that he will explain illusions not domain public, for example Windshare, cause I think pursuit laws can be done.Maybe I'm wrong this time... I think he is more devil than that : he make build junk illusions, near in the idea of the real , specially build to be explained. And for that, it is impossible to do something.
What he had done for example for the SQUEEZE BOX in the past is even not a ripp off. It is even not an illusion. Like a Ripp off of the worse ripp off possible lol.An the secret exposed was not real.

3) For the second hand props, the agreement (signed in the past by the ex-buyer now becomed : the seller) need to be sold with the illusion. So the signature of the new buyer need to be placed on the paper, and this condition need to be explained on the paper. The new buyer need follow the rules, and the second hand seller keep a photocopy of the paper for prove. If the seller recognize his illusion in a EXPOSURE TV programm, he can contact the builder or creator (if he is not out of business or dead of course; than...) . If the builder recognize his prop, he has the LEGAL rights to make law pursuits. For the money, the associations can help : He can't loose , a paper signed give the entire prove.

4) Some arrangement can be done between different creator or builder . When a builder want to go out of the business (problem financial, age or personnal choice) , the agreements signed can be given to another one.

for example : CREATIVE MAGIC one day wants to stop his activity. He has build lot of SQUARE CUBES and SHADOW TENTS. He give the agreements to ABOTTS (not the rights ! only the agreement) . Lots unit have been built and sold with this agreement.
One day, the Bastar d magician films and expose the secret of this illusion. ABOTTS has full power to attack him and pursuit are possible. Builder need to work together the day they want stop their business.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 17, 2008 03:57PM)
Sorry for the faults, I wrote quick lol
Message: Posted by: magicofCurtis (Sep 17, 2008 06:02PM)
Well,
Be the change you see....

Next time you sell one of your props have a signed agreement stating it will not be exposed.....

I know at least one of the big illusion builders has this in their contract already.... WINK
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 18, 2008 07:54AM)
Hi Curtis
If all the builders, little or big, good and even bad make sign some agreements, it can be a excellent way to limit exposure in the future. Maybe diffuse the infirmation around the dealers can be good. Not sure that the masked M(s) will buy to this big builder. Every magic store should use those type of agreement, I think.
I give the idea. Now ...
Message: Posted by: Drew Manning (Sep 18, 2008 09:16AM)
I'm with Payne on this.

The builder or creator would have to bear the costs of litigation for thing. Secondly, to be successful in a breach of contract suit, the builder would have to show actual damages suffered as a result of the agreement being broken. If the builed is still averaging the same number of sales he did before the exposure on a particular effect, he will have trouble showing damages.
Message: Posted by: stephane_arnow (Sep 18, 2008 10:49AM)
I need thinking about that... The damage is the fact that a man expose the secret, and the possible futures buyers will not buy the prop, of fear to have audiance in the known. So it is a commercial dommage, first point, and a simple not respect of the rules signed for any magic trick bought. I need admit that I'm not jurist, but to my point of view the dommage is easy to argument. and the prove is on paper. It is a contract brocken by the exposer. I doubt that lot of magician will build an Assistant Revenge this year and next year. They will wait that people forget a little... For certain effect, Zig Zag for example, I can see that less magician present it now in my country, and I remember a french one which has removed it from his programm, because of the exposure (in the period of the diffusion on the TV cable). Is is not enough to prove the commercial injury ?
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Sep 18, 2008 11:41AM)
Stéphane, some magicians here really think it even helps us!!! They are idiots...
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Oct 2, 2008 09:41AM)
I tend to agree with Eugene Burger's comments in our interview with him. There is more meaningful exposure in the improper performance of magic than was ever contained in the Masked Magician specials. In spite of that, it is worth noting that the new show which begins this season is an all new weekly show one hour in length, not reruns of the original. You can see a video clip [url=http://www.linkingpage.com]HERE[/url]
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 2, 2008 11:43AM)
Monday is the sixth, not the seventh.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 2, 2008 11:44AM)
"We’d also ask that magicians and fans of magic express their ire by boycotting the show’s sponsors and the network as a whole."

Why don't you put the link to the petition up?

If you are asking a boycott, why not have a list of people that will be boycotting?
Message: Posted by: Tim Hannig (Oct 2, 2008 02:38PM)
Brad Burts advice:

Rats! He's or They're at it again. Just got an e-notice from Magic Magazine that there is a new "Magic Tell All" show coming to a station that frankly I can't get and have never heard of!!

Here's the basics:

Breaking the Magician's Code:
Magic's Biggest Secrets Finally Revealed
Thursday, October 2nd, 9/8c, MyNetwork TV

You can go to: http://www.mynetworktv.com/stations.php and find out the channel nearest you, etc.

What should be the response of the magic community? Easy. Really it is. In 37 years in the biz I have seen this time and time again. What 'they' want is for magicians to cause a fuss, make a scene, get out and picket. What we need to do is simple: SAY NOTHING, DO NOTHING. The more we cry the more publicity they will garner. Someone asks you if you know anything? Your answer: "Not really. Must not be a big deal." Shrug and move on.

After the show if folks ask you about it? DEFLECT!!!! "Hmmm, that's nice." or "Don't know that one myself. I don't think I would ever do it." DEFLECT! Tone it down. Make it the least that it can be. That's how you defeat these things. It's how you get even in effect. Yawn. What a bore.

Look pass the above on. Cut and Paste it into your own message if you like. You don't even have to give me credit. Get the word OUT: Don't talk! Don't demonstrate! ACT as if it's not even happening.

Thanks and take care,

Brad Burt
619-562-4877
bradburtmagic@yahoo.com
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 2, 2008 06:58PM)
It will be on at 11 because of the debate.

I will be writing down a list of advertisers.
Message: Posted by: chrusa (Oct 2, 2008 08:41PM)
This special has been pretty bad so far it is aimed at Copperfield deathsaw, walking through a "Great Wall of Steel" I wonder why he seems to hate Copperfield. The string quartet was pretty silly seems to be aimed at 13 even though that is probably not how 13 is done.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 2, 2008 09:34PM)
Your watching it now?

How the? What the? HEY!

I'm stuck with the debate!
Message: Posted by: Illusionist11 (Oct 2, 2008 09:43PM)
Yeah me too ...i didn't even know it was on...I'm really mad!
Message: Posted by: CCPCris (Oct 2, 2008 09:54PM)
Well, Im just aginst expousre as the next guy. But expousure just makes me come up with new methods, that could be more deceptive. I don't think some of the really big, big names in magic say anything or do anything is simply because they have made their money, I could be wrong though.
Message: Posted by: chrusa (Oct 2, 2008 11:30PM)
Oh Im sorry I was away from the computer I am in Fairfield County CT we have new york my nine (with the debate) and Connecticut my nine from hartford (No debate)
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 2, 2008 11:57PM)
Well, now that I have been quoted in this thread without my knowledge or consent, I'll make a statement that clarifies my position on this, which is based on a dozen years of actively fighting against exposure on television and in other media as well.

When the first MM special was broadcast, I learned that Valentino was the perpetrator. I got two verifications, and then put his picture up on my web site, along with other exposers.

I already knew what the results would ultimately be. So let me explain a few things about exposure.

1) It's wrong.
2) It's not illegal.
3) It's not illegal even if the illusion is patented. Why? It's exposed on the patent office web site for Pete's sake.
4) In some countries, such as Argentina, there have been successful lawsuits against the networks broadcasting the shows, but they haven't worked in the US. Why? Our laws are different from theirs.

In 1998, the World Alliance of Magicians, of which I was a charter member, and which had DC, S&R, and every other major illusionist in the country as members, sued Fox to get them not to broadcast the special that had the revelation of the Death Table. Andre Kole stated that he felt that they were violating his intellectual property.

WAM's attorney made a tactical blunder. He DEMANDED to see a preview of the show. The judge did not grant his petition. He stated, "If you are going to sue for damages, you have to prove the damages exist. You can't sue for damages you feel will result from the show. Let them run the show. Then when you have damages, you can sue." I think this is called Law 101.

So WAM ran out of money. The magic community did not support them. Nevertheless, I put information on my web site that did contribute to some solutions. However, we learned that the show will run whether or not they have sponsors. The last run was done with PSA's (public service announcements) and preview announcements of other Fox shows.

Fox doesn't give a cr@p about us. How many of us are there? 25,000 world-wide?

So, what punishment is available? The only punishment that we can levy against the guy in this country is to boot him out of the magic clubs.

So, here's the question. What's the punishment? Are they telling the MM that if he doesn't quit exposing magic, he won't be able to go to any boring magic club meetings?

The clubs are powerless.

Do you really want to do something about it that might have an impact? Send handwritten letters to the various sponsors and the local stations. DO NOT mention that you are a magician. If you do, they will call you. They may even record you and broadcast your opinion. But it won't do what you want it to do.

Why?

Because here's what the audience will hear:

ANNOUNCER: "One of our local magicians is threatening to sue Fox over the recent broadcast of the Masked Magician exposing an illusion he paid $10,000 for, and now, according to him, it's useless."

Magician:"Yeah, like I paid $10,000 for a DeKolta Chair, and like it's been exposed now, and like I can't use it."

ANNOUNCER: "You paid $10,000 for a chair? And you can't use it?"

Magician: "Everyone knows how it works."

Announcer: "I know how my chair works. I put my *** in it, sit back and drink coffee. Wait, are you talking about THIS chair? (holds up copy of Hopkins' [i]Magic[/i]"

M: "Yeah."

A: "Well, the trick is over 100 years old. Don't you think you could use something newer?"

M: "And they exposed walking through a steel plate."

A: "Which worked like this one here called 'Vanity Fair.' Don't you guys learn any new stuff?"

You can't win. In fact, they will announce for DAYS that a real magician from wherever it is that you live is going to be on the news right before the next show is broadcast. And they will edit your comments to make you look foolish.

Get your friends to write letters. A petition is going to do just what some others have said -- it will give them some publicity material.

I fought this battle 12 years ago.

Now the ball's in your court.

Don't fumble it.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 3, 2008 12:01AM)
I was thinking of using the petition as a signature on a letter.
Message: Posted by: AnthonyMaze (Oct 3, 2008 12:11AM)
Well put Bill,


People forget, I remember when it first came out, and now that its been a few years when people bring it up, they honestly cant remember what 'exactly' he did to make her disappear or whatever it was, they just remember that it was something sneaky...


Its hype right now, but in a short time, things will die down and people will forget. Worst mistake ever would be to add fuel to the fire...


Oh, and by the way, Celine Dion flew and had other performers flying... using the SAME METHOD as David, but no one left there saying 'OH THEY USED S*****S!' No! Everyone just wants to be entertained, if I went to a magic show and watched the MM I would be disappointed cause he doesn't entertain. Laymen don't pay attention to the method like we do, its almost in one ear and out the other...

I, as a magician, STILL love watching classics like the EGG BAG, if you have ever seen Jeff Hobson do it, then you'll know what I mean. Even though I know how its done I could watch that a 100 times! Its all about entertaining right?!?!

Anyway, I'm getting long winded... ....

that's my 10 cents...


*A.maze*
Message: Posted by: jcmagicman (Oct 3, 2008 12:35AM)
I disagree. People will not forget. Many people I know videotape these stupid specials and, even worse, record them with cellphones to show others at school or work. Anyhow, apparently this is the masked magician's myspace link ...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=105231791
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 3, 2008 12:37AM)
As I said in another post, take a look at his friends list alphabetically.

You will see some familiar names from the magic community as well has here on the Café. It really is disgusting
Message: Posted by: AnthonyMaze (Oct 3, 2008 01:18AM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-03 01:35, jcmagicman wrote:
I disagree. People will not forget. Many people I know videotape these stupid specials and, even worse, record them with cellphones to show others at school or work. Anyhow, apparently this is the masked magician's myspace link ...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=105231791
[/quote]

People secretly record concerts and stage shows all the time now with our 'pocket cameras' but I know for a fact people only look at those clips a couple of times... I think there is a SMALL percentage of people that are trying to wiggle their way into the secrets of magic, I think if they are that interested in how it is done that they have a strong interest in the method or ideology of the subject, rather than to have that 'AHA!' moment the next time they are in a theater watching a magician, or rather show up to work the next day and go 'I KNOW HOW DAVID GETS CUT BY A BUZZ SAW'

People remember some things, but if its not pertinent in their everyday life or interest, the memories fade and blur... if you don't believe me, do you remember all that was said the first time you watched a defensive driving video when you took your drivers training course?

Probably not, I know I can't.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2008 02:52AM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-03 01:37, Matthew W wrote:
As I said in another post, take a look at his friends list alphabetically.

You will see some familiar names from the magic community as well has here on the Café. It really is disgusting
[/quote]

As YOU have already been told by people who know a hell of a lot more about this than you do, these people that are on his friends list on his MySpace page may all be something he cooked up.

Who gives a rat's patoot about a stupid MySpace page? Get a REAL web site.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2008 03:08AM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-03 01:01, Matthew W wrote:
I was thinking of using the petition as a signature on a letter.
[/quote]

And how will this be a positive move? It will just look like you got a bunch of friends to sign a letter.

Let me ask you this. If you got a petition with, say, 500 signatures, that would take up about 10 sheets of paper. If you got 500 individual letters, that would take 500 sheets of paper, 500 envelopes, and would probably involve a mail bag.

Which would be more impressive and memorable?

Think about it 10 ... 500 ... 10 ... 500.

You don't think that the people you send it to will think that a bunch of magicians are behind it? The pile of mail is much better, especially if you have signatures from mayors, police officers, store owners, churches.

Be imaginative.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2008 03:14AM)
Just so you won't think that I don't know the damage these shows can do, and how to do damage control, this is what happened after the first MM special. I was doing a holiday show for Roadrunner Trucking. I got to the venue early, and started to set up. One of the party goers sat down next to the riser and said, "I know how all of this stuff works -- I saw the masked magician."

I turned to him and smiled. Then I said, "Do you think anybody who was in the business would really do any of those things that way? Using a FORKLIFT for a levitation? That's funny!"

He was shocked. I said, "He didn't reveal any of the real secrets. He's a hack. Nobody will tell him the real work. He worked at Magic Island a couple of years ago. They never hired him back."

So, what was I doing? I was "letting the customer in on the 'truth'." But it wasn't the real truth. It was a construct. Val had worked at Magic Island. I met him there. By letting this truck driver think that he had been duped by a network conspiracy, I took the heat off the magic.

BTW, I did the linking rings on that show. Fooled the bejeezus out of him!
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 3, 2008 10:46AM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-03 03:52, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-10-03 01:37, Matthew W wrote:
As I said in another post, take a look at his friends list alphabetically.

You will see some familiar names from the magic community as well has here on the Café. It really is disgusting
[/quote]

As YOU have already been told by people who know a hell of a lot more about this than you do, these people that are on his friends list on his MySpace page may all be something he cooked up.

Who gives a rat's patoot about a stupid MySpace page? Get a REAL web site.
[/quote]

Two things:

1- I have spoken to some of the magicians on his friends list about stuff only the real them would know, such as what went down at a show I saw them do.

2- Yes I do have a real website. I don't use the myspace page for promotion, I use it for networking.


I would still like to know why you asked if I do paid shows.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2008 01:19PM)
Because you act like an amateur, you write like an amateur, and you seem to have this fixed idea that you are the ONLY one in the world who is right about this thing.

Matthew, you are wasting your time with this. Worse than that, when you tell people not to post to a thread if they don't agree with you, you are acting like a pi$$ed off teenager.

I've seen your other posts on other threads. You don't seem willing to invest the time and effort to purchase professional props. You don't even understand when an illegal act has occurred.

How do you know that the Masked MORON hasn't simply faked all of those entries? It's not like hacking a federal database.

I don't have any more time for you. I actually have a REAL life.

I've been down this road before, many times. I've gone up against some of the best. I finally decided if the rest of the community doesn't care enough to work against it, then it's not worth the bother.

Besides, in the long run, the public forgets all of this stuff.

They have other things on their mind that are much more important than how DC did the Death Saw.

Like where they are going to live now that their house has been blown away by a hurricane.

Like how they are going to pay off the loans they have, since they lost their jobs.

And you are angry because someone exposed a trick you will never do?
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Oct 3, 2008 01:39PM)
The time and effort to purchase proffesional props? Umm, actually I am saving up now to get some lager scale stuff. I think saving up for stuff is putting in effort and time.

With the sword basket thread, is paying over a thousand bucks for a woven sword basket being professional? You are paying for the name that made it.

I never said I am the only one in the world, other people in this said the same things I have.

Who is to say I would never perform the Dekolta chair, or walking through a fan?.

In fact I even saw a brief clip last night of what looked like Andrew Maynes Razorwire, an effect I am currently working on building out of wood and metal, not cheap pvc pipe.

Why would he fake a myspace page for some of the members of the Café? Again I am not going to post names, so I don't get banned for inciting trouble.

Maybe that cup on your head IS too tight.

I am a teenager and I am ****ed off.
Message: Posted by: chrusa (Oct 8, 2008 02:16AM)
"Maybe that cup on your head IS too tight. "


??????????????????????????????????????

What was that for!?!

Def. not needed!
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Dec 11, 2008 02:55AM)
I think that a petition is not enough: one of our associations should do an agreement with a lawyer for a class action against the network and not communicate about the case (even if the channel does) in order to prevent the channel advertising for it. We as individual magicians would not make any money, but our association and the lawyers would ... and the theft would stop.

Know-how is a protectable asset, even in the absence of patent. This has been won at court times and again.

The international legal ground is that whoever creates an economical damage is bound to repair it. Anonymously revealing private secrets in public has legal limits, as well.

Creators and distributors do suffer damages, as magicians buy less of the disclosed tricks. Magicians suffer a damage because they have purchased an effect which is no longer a secret. It is possible to supply statistics on trick sales to establish the damage.

The defense that the tricks are explained in books is not a valid excuse since people have to buy the book (and thus the secret) where on TV, they don't buy the secrets from the creator or the merchant.

It is part of the role of associations, like the IBM or the SAM, to find an aggressive lawyer who can base his case on the pirated downloads of music or films.

Actually, the network would not hesitate suing people pirating some of their shows without permission.

The petition is a good idea to serve as a base for a class action, but it will not produce any result on its own. Lawyers love such cases as it's potentially very profitable for them, and the protection of intellectual rights within the frame of the Internet developments is very much under the spotlights. Look at the case against YouTube: the channel was considered responsible. Push your local IBM or SAM (they made us swear secrecy when we joined) and push them as our associations might be interested as well in sharing some of the proceeding without the cost (covered by the lawyers).
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 24, 2008 11:19AM)
When the items being exposed are legally in the public domain, i.e. not covered by an active patent, such as the DeKolta Chair, etc., there is no way to recover damages in this country. Perhaps it will work in France, but it won't work here.

Also, if the method used in the exposure is not the method used in the marketed trick, then you have an additional problem. There is now way to claim damages if someone exposes his own methods.

As I mentioned before, if the exposer is not a member of any magical organization, there is no way to punish him.

Even if the item being exposed is patented, there are quirks in the law that can keep it from being prosecutable. Take a look sometime at the books by William Pountstone. He purchased tricks from Abbott's and Tannen's, then exposed them.

The law could not touch him.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 24, 2008 11:30AM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-03 14:39, Matthew W wrote:
The time and effort to purchase proffesional props? Umm, actually I am saving up now to get some lager scale stuff. I think saving up for stuff is putting in effort and time.

With the sword basket thread, is paying over a thousand bucks for a woven sword basket being professional? You are paying for the name that made it.

[quote]

You are very lucky if you can find anyone who will make you a suitable basket for less than $1000. I performed the Indian Basket from 1980 to 2000. During that time, I went through three different baskets. The first one was stolen from me. I replaced it with one from India that cost me about $400 -- this was in 1987. Now the same basket would cost about $800, but the shipping would be prohibitive.

In 1992, I had two baskets woven by a local basketmaker. They cost me $450 each. Now, if I had been purchasing these for resale, I would have charged at least $1200 for the baskets, because these were "raw" baskets. They had no lining, they had no holes, they had no flaps, and they had none of the other necessary work that I had learned from twelve years of performing the illusion was absolutely necessary. I had two of them made, because I knew how difficult it would be to find another basket maker.

The first one I prepared lasted me for 8 years. The other one is still in perfect condition. And it's not for sale, even though I am retired.

[quote]

Maybe that cup on your head IS too tight.

[/quote]

That cup is a perfect example of a professional prop. It is one of a set of cups that cost me $1750. You will never have a set. So go ahead and be jealous.

[quote]

I am a teenager and I am ****ed off.

[/quote]

Don't be so proud of yourself. Take your rage and channel it into working out something original.
Message: Posted by: Matthew W (Dec 24, 2008 11:31AM)
Defamation of Character.

The show has said numerous times that magicians are only out to cheat and decieve audiences for their money. The shows make us look bad. They are degrading what we do.

I think there would be a case for that.

But, it is over now.