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Topic: Copper/Silver/Brass or Two Copper/One Silver?
Message: Posted by: karnak (Sep 13, 2008 07:51PM)
Newbie here (hello!), trying to ensure I fully grasp the difference between (while trying to decide between purchasing) a C/S/B set and a 2C/1S set.

Without giving anything away... would it be correct to say that the main difference between these two gaffed coin sets basically just boils down to the presence of a Chinese coin in the former vs. a Mexican centavo in the latter?

(This is assuming the other two coins, in both sets, are a U.S. half dollar and an English penny. That is, the C/S/B set = English penny/half dollar/Chinese coin, whereas the 2C/1S set = English penny/half dollar/Mexican centavo. [I realize that some -- maybe most -- C/S/B sets these days seem to use, for their "C," a centavo instead of a penny....])

Is that the only difference between these sets? Are they otherwise pretty much the same thing, operating in essentially the same fashion?

If so, then would I be safe in assuming that most effects and routines for the C/S/B set would be more or less interchangeable (or easily adaptable) for use with a 2C/1/S set? And vice versa?

If you have one, do you really need the other (unless you for some reason really want or need to use a Chinese coin in one routine, and a Mexican centavo in another routine)? Do most people have both sets, for instance?

Just trying to ensure I'm not missing something here, and am making as informed a purchase decision as a newbie can reasonably make!

Thanks in advance for any/all clarifications, insights, etc.
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Sep 13, 2008 09:09PM)
You're correct - the main difference is the hole in the chinese coin. There are several routines where a hole is NOT desirable [and I'm sure others where the hole IS!].

Other than that, both sets are the same in operation.
Message: Posted by: karnak (Sep 13, 2008 10:13PM)

By the way, am I correct that, in the past, C/S/B sets typically used an English penny for their copper coin?

I've been looking around online lately, and it seems like all the current C/S/B sets I see advertised now use a Mexican 20 centavo for the copper coin, instead of the English penny.

When did this change (and why)? Or am I mis-remembering an English penny being a part of the set? Was it always a centavo? (Did Johnson start out with the former, then switch at some point to the latter? Or am I all mixed up?)

I'd prefer an English penny version, since I use more pennies than centavos in other effects I'm learning. Does anyone (other than the expensive "custom shop" guys) still make a C/S/B set with an English penny instead of a 20 centavo?
Message: Posted by: Pete McEwen (Sep 13, 2008 10:15PM)
Rutabaga has it right! The hole makes many things about it seem impossible, although there are some routines that can't be performed simply because of the hole. To get exactly what you want you you can get it from one of the big coin gaffers and choose the coins you want, so you could conceivably pick a chinese coin without a hole or a copper coin with a hole. But to keep things simple it's the same type of gaff just the hole making it seem different.

Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 13, 2008 10:25PM)
Yeah, two for one transposition - usually American / foreign - someone back in the 1970s let loose the bit "how much in this hand? - fifty cents - but not in American money" ... anyway aside from the nice post design offered by Eddie Gibson way back when it's pretty much just two gaff designs and you can ask the gaffers to make you a set in about any combination you want.

Message: Posted by: Sammy J. (Sep 13, 2008 10:31PM)
I think the visual impact of the hole in the coin (Copper, Silver, Brass) is super powerful if you're doing a two for one transposition. I've been doing this effect for many years, and the hole in the coin still seems like one of the strongest convincers I have seen.
Message: Posted by: karnak (Sep 13, 2008 10:49PM)
Again without giving anything away, would I be right in assuming that I need to be concerned about, or take into account, the "backdrop" (closeup pad or whatever) when using the Chinese coin?

What if that's a variable you cannot control, under certain circumstances (for instance, impromptu and hence without a pad)?
Message: Posted by: Sammy J. (Sep 13, 2008 11:03PM)
Not at all. I suggest that if you are deciding to purchase one or the other, and if you want to do a standard routine, go with the copper, silver, brass. With most routines, the magic happens while the coins are in your hands, not on the mat. My set uses an American half, a 20 centavos, and a brass coin with a hole in it. It's a pretty standard routine, until I go into John Cornelius's Copper Silver Brass coins across. None of it requires a close up pad. The hole in the brass coin is what really sells the illusion.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 13, 2008 11:20PM)
? the coin has a hole in it. A real hole. Both versions use coins with real holes. ... it's not using the standard chinatown gaff. ;)
Message: Posted by: karnak (Sep 13, 2008 11:34PM)
Ahhhhh, okay. I was confusing myself. I'm aware of a gaffed Chinese coin where the hole is, um, part of the gaff; but being a relative newbie, I wasn't yet informed enough to know that that's evidently a different gaff from what's going on in C/S/B. Thanks for the helpful clarification.
Message: Posted by: Sammy J. (Sep 14, 2008 05:15PM)
On 2008-09-14 00:20, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
? the coin has a hole in it. A real hole. Both versions use coins with real holes. ... it's not using the standard chinatown gaff. ;)
I wasn't aware that there is a two copper, one silver with a hole in one of the copper coins. Mine is 30 years old and uses a 20 centavos and english penny. Guess I better catch up!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 14, 2008 05:47PM)
Both the Gibson and Johnson versions of the C/S/B gaff Sammy. The Connie Hayden 2cS gaff did not have that feature - it was Presley Guitar who figured out the next step in that direction.

There are now versions of the 2cS gaff using two copper coins as there's African ten cent pieces which have a hole through as well.

Here's a webpage with more info on coins having holes...

Message: Posted by: Sammy J. (Sep 14, 2008 10:00PM)
Whoa! That website is the definative resourse for holey coins! Thanks for the education. My copper silver brass set has a half dollar, a brass chinese coin with hole, and a twenty centavos. It sounds like now a days the coin with the hole is the small sized coin. All that aside, the hole in one of the coins adds a touch of imposibility to the transposition of the coins. I guess I like the idea of three different metals for the coins.
Message: Posted by: jordanl (Sep 15, 2008 10:00AM)

I've never seen a CSB made with a English penny. Early versions of 2C1S used a early American large cent, a copper coin about the size of an 20 centavo.

For the traditional routine the Hole really adds something, OTOH there are some routines Like Dave Neighbors Sandy, recently popularized by Bill Malone that require the older set. LL has a DVD set called Worlds greatest magic : Gaff coins that features several different routines with 2C1S and CSB. Also Porper and Biro inroduce poker chip surprise a version using poker chips.
Message: Posted by: karnak (Sep 15, 2008 10:19AM)
Thanks to everyone for all the info and input.

I've got a couple of Dave Neighbor's books; "Coinjuring," for instance, has several routines which use a 2C/1S set, and so I've been wondering lately whether those routines (or at least some of them) might also be do-able using a C/S/B set, instead...?
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Sep 15, 2008 11:46AM)
Hi Karnak,
No you can't use standard A C.S.B. set for those Routines! As Has been said You can see trough the hole in the chinese coin! So You can't use it for any routine That you need to show it as just a Chinese coin! Because they would see the other coin under it! Now days I use A Solid C.S.B. set. That has A Solid Brass coin! That way in sandy I can show 3 coins that don't look anything like each other! And for the other stuff in coinjuring I can just add a 4th. Odd coin
The only thing bad about A 2c./1s. set it that two of the coins look to much alike! So The solid C.S.B. sets are harder to get! I got mine from Todd! And he made it for me in barber! :) Ok thanks man!
Message: Posted by: karnak (Sep 15, 2008 04:31PM)
Thans for the insight, Dave!

By the way, some of your routines in "Coinjuring" call for a 1-1/2" coin, and a 3" coin (with shell). Can you point me toward any sources for these (and are they expensive)?

Thanks again.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Sep 15, 2008 04:40PM)
Hay Your wecome!

I got mine from Sterling magic 20-25 years ago! I just looked and Thay no longer carry them!:( ! But I am sure I saw them on line not to long ago!
Just look a round. I am sure You can still get them.