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Topic: Depth of expanded shell
Message: Posted by: The Old Man (Oct 1, 2008 10:52AM)
I just got a Johnson half dollar expanded shell. When the shell is over the coin the edge does not sit on the table. In fact it lets show about 1/4 of the real coins edge. Is this right? Should the edge of the expanded shell rest on the table? It might look OK on a mat, but not on a hard surface.
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Oct 1, 2008 02:09PM)
Mine only covers about half and it was never noticed.
Either have other coins on the table or divert attention.
Message: Posted by: Wayne Kawamoto (Oct 1, 2008 02:15PM)
It's just the way that the Johnson shells lie.

I can't comment on whether spectators will notice when the coins are sitting on a table because my regular coin routine is completely in the hands. However, when holding the shelled coin on the palm of my hand, I curve up my fingers slightly to prevent spectators from getting a clear glimpse of the bottom of the shelled coin.

-Wayne
Message: Posted by: organicmagician (Oct 1, 2008 03:21PM)
That's about right on a Johnson expanded shell. People have their own standards, but I want my shell to look indistinguishable from the other coins when lying next to them, unshelled. That means, if the shell is going to be thick enough not to crumble, that it won't cover the coin all the way. Some workers prefer a deeper shell with better coverage.

If you want a really imperceptible shell, either go custom expanded and get it extra deep. Or, go for an unexpanded shell set. They tend to be much more deceptive. Many love the Schoolcraft Dean's Set as an example. I think Todd Lassen's coins are better made and nicer, but in either case you will get a shell that conceals most or all of the edge of the coin.
Message: Posted by: tbaer (Oct 1, 2008 08:47PM)
I have a Lassen expanded shell and it doesn't completely cover the coin, there might be a millimeter or 2 that is exposed. I may be wrong, but I don't even know if an expanded shell can be made that will completely cover a coin because by expanding it, you are losing some of it's depth.
Message: Posted by: Starromeo (Oct 1, 2008 10:27PM)
You are dead right tbaer, expanded shell can never cover the whole coin. If you want 100% coverage, you will need to have unexpanded shell with remilled insert coin.
I have both expanded and unexpanded shell, once you started using the unexpanded one, there is no going back.
Message: Posted by: The Old Man (Oct 1, 2008 10:52PM)
Thanks all for the feedback.
Message: Posted by: tbaer (Oct 2, 2008 05:42PM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-01 23:27, Starromeo wrote:
I have both expanded and unexpanded shell, once you started using the unexpanded one, there is no going back.
[/quote]

I have a remilled unexpanded shell and there is absolutely no distortion to the face. Very crisp looking, so I know what you mean.
Message: Posted by: tpax (Oct 5, 2008 07:09PM)
The Johnsons ULTIMATE Expanded Shell is nice for the money. I bought one in a Ike and was impressed with the side cover.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Oct 13, 2008 11:38AM)
IMHO it's not important because most of us perform standing exposing more the sides of the coins than their edge, which are only flashed in the course of some actions. Actually most of us even show the side where the coin is into the sh***.

This is a known psychological perception system discovered (not for magic) by the Gestalt theory: we (spectators included) perceive objects as a whole when we have already experienced them. "Showing" is in fact merely a reassurance to the audience than a display in the proper sense of the word. So if the coin(s) have been properly displayed initially, the risk to get caught during the routine is only a function of the performer's guilt anxiety.

However for performers who are concerned with this (generally sitting performers performing for sitting spectators having an almost horizontal vision), Jamie Schoolcraft is producing an expanded Sh*** which edge gets all along the one of the coin it covers.
Message: Posted by: organicmagician (Oct 13, 2008 08:39PM)
[quote]
On 2008-10-13 12:38, Lawrence O wrote:
So if the coin(s) have been properly displayed initially, the risk to get caught during the routine is only a function of the performer's guilt anxiety.
[/quote]

I think this is by and large, if not almost always, correct. I've only been caught twice using a shell despite performing with them thousands and thousands of times. Once - early on in my coin magic performances - I dropped the shelled coin. No ding, thankfully but the shell flew off. I don't think the spectator understood what they were seeing, but clearly something fishy was up.

The other time, I got caught both on a regular shell and a triple threat by the same guy. He was a very bright guy in his 50s and I was performing just for him (a friend of mine). He had just had Lasik surgery and somehow he could see and distinguish the edge of the coins and he immediately figured out what the shells were and how they worked. I've never been caught in thousands of performances other than by this guy - it was nuts. This was one of those annoying smart, big-mouthed people that nails you repeatedly and has a good mind for taking apart effects that normally kill spectators. Had to switch to magician foolers.

The roundabout point of this story was that other than (1) when I screwed up big and (2) a singular spectator, no one has ever noticed or discerned my use of a shell, regardless of the quality.
Message: Posted by: Roki (Dec 16, 2008 09:41AM)
I definitely have magicians guilt ! I don't like displaying the nested expanded shell unless its flat in my hand or I can keep it moving.
I recently was drawn to the effect where 2 coins are shown at fingertips and then waved and become one . This looks great and gets great reactions . I saw it done by Nathan Kranzo but it is part of several gaffed coin effects you probably know. Does anyone do this with an expanded shell . It seems to me that there is too much heat on it where my shell is not comppletely hiding the nested one.
It ends up with me waving the coin somewhat nervously !!!
In some versions slippery sams are used and I think they completely hide , so I was thinking of getting one .
Opinions ???
Message: Posted by: Mr. Ray (Dec 16, 2008 09:56AM)
Now I'm not asking wich one is better generally, but I whant to hear those opinions who have bought from both so they can compare. Wich ones shellsdo you think are better: Lassens or Schoolcrafts? ( only expanded shells)
Message: Posted by: Rick11 (Dec 16, 2008 06:55PM)
I have a Walking Liberty expanded shell from Schoolcraft. It covers almost all of the coin. The shelled coin could be placed on a table without being noticed at all!
Message: Posted by: rutabaga (Dec 16, 2008 08:56PM)
Think about it... if a shell covers ALL of the coin, then when un-nested it's going to look thicker than the rest of the coins.

I have both Schoolcraft and Lassen expanded shells, and neither covers the whole coin. As mentioned above, used properly it won't ever be noticed.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jan 5, 2009 11:15AM)
If you have concerns of the coverage of a Johnson expanded shell then I would have to say either you have a case of magician paranoia or that you need to work on the casualness of your presentation skills because even the slightest hesitation could raise red flags for a observant spectator.
Message: Posted by: Roki (Jan 6, 2009 08:37PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-16 21:56, rutabaga wrote:
Think about it... if a shell covers ALL of the coin, then when un-nested it's going to look thicker than the rest of the coins.

/quote]

An intersting point , but wouldnt an expanded shell look more natural with a proportionately expanded edge . Mine actually looks like its too thin . (Its a tango 2 coin ). In fact its thinner than a normal unexpanded 2 ! ?
Message: Posted by: bwarren3 (Jan 6, 2009 09:00PM)
Hi Roki,
Let me throw in a couple of my 2cents worth...
When I use my shelled coin routine, the shell is stacked 3rd from the top of the stack and I have 2 extra coins that I pass out....as long as I stay with either the shell tail side or one of the red chinese colored coins, they never see it and it's in their hands...but one time I switched over to the black chinese shell coin set and it was very detectable....
Plus I recently found a seet of the Kohler U3F original set, looks like it's never been used....what a shame..absolutely perfect condition.
I did the exact Kohler routine which really is a perfect routine for a coin guy and fried him...just didn't have the heart to tell him, way too good of an effect...
if you can find a set, grab'em..that set is so worth every penny...
Bill
Message: Posted by: Chris Meece (Dec 10, 2009 04:52PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-16 19:55, Rick11 wrote:
I have a Walking Liberty expanded shell from Schoolcraft. It covers almost all of the coin. The shelled coin could be placed on a table without being noticed at all!
[/quote]
I have a set of the Walking Liberty's on order from Jamie right now. How are the edges on these? I didn't think to ask if they would have crisp edges, being that old. Would make down's palm and others more difficult without it.
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Dec 10, 2009 09:07PM)
All of us can spot it a mile away but the crowd misses it every time. It's fun.
Like Harry Anderson holding a TT in front of your nose, in mocking defiance.
Message: Posted by: harvini2 (Dec 11, 2009 10:25PM)
I have bought coins from,Jamie Schoolcraft, and todd Lassen's, I also have shells by Paul Tosi, they are all good, paul has treated me good.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Dec 13, 2009 10:59AM)
Roy Kueppers makes a beautiful Walking Liberty shell set. Almost complete coverage and no noticeable distortion. I picked up a set at the Kozmo lecture and I like it so much that I just ordered two more sets directly from Roy (a set of '64 Kennedy Halves, and another set of Walking Liberties). Worth looking into...
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Dec 19, 2009 03:40AM)
As long as its not a defect.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Dec 19, 2009 09:08PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-19 04:40, Candin wrote:
As long as its not a defect.
[/quote]

Baseless statement (assuming that you are referring to my post). All three of my Kueppers sets are beautiful. His level of communication is terrific, and he even checked in (twice) to ensure that I was satisfied with my purchases.