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Topic: Mask Magician Exposes Patented Gamalo Levitation
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 19, 2008 12:30PM)
I own this illusion and know it is patented:

Publication Number: 04244566 - Molovinsky; Gale ~ LEVITATION DEVICE - Issued: January 13, 1981 See: Secret Sessions [url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=168338&forum=37]Patents[/url]

Can the Mask Magician legally do this?
It is the exact design and equipment I have.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Nov 19, 2008 12:38PM)
Dennis, sue the ***...
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 19, 2008 12:51PM)
I don't own the patent, Gale does, it would have to come from him!

Gale Molovinsky is a lawyer! He should know the legalities of this.

His sales would drop and he should sue for all the advertising he has done, and potential loss of income, as well as damages.

It is the first illusion that the Mask Magician has done where I know it falls under existing patents.

It would be nice to see Fox pay for exposure ($100) per person who saw that illusion. It's less than what the plans would have cost.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Nov 19, 2008 12:59PM)
Dennis, did he show it last Monday?

Posted: Nov 19, 2008 2:00pm
I forgot to mention that I hate him SO MUCH...If anyone has the chance to meet him in person, beat him up! Everybody here will help you pay your court fees...
Message: Posted by: Justin Style (Nov 19, 2008 01:07PM)
Wow Dennis, You and this guy too...


http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=285030&forum=62&2
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 19, 2008 01:13PM)
Magicque,

It was Monday's Nov 17th, 2008 show.

So far the Masked Magician has exposed my Twister, My Zombie, My Sword Suspension, and now my Gamolo Levitation.

He has not exposed my Hippy Hop Rabbits yet!
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Nov 19, 2008 01:18PM)
:sarcastic:
Gee, but exposure doesn't hurt anyone...
:sarcastic:
Message: Posted by: Skip Way (Nov 19, 2008 01:21PM)
Dennis, patents are public record. As I understand it, once an item is patented anyone can legally request a complete set of design specs. That's one of the reasons that products like Coca Cola and KFC's recipe have never been patented. However crude and distasteful, exposing the design on national TV is merely an extension of that public availability. I doubt that there's a legal resolution here.

However, I do find value in Magicque's suggestion.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 19, 2008 02:09PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 14:13, Dennis Michael wrote:
Magicque,

It was Monday's Nov 17th, 2008 show.

So far the Masked Magician has exposed my Twister, My Zombie, My Sword Suspension, and now my Gamolo Levitation.

He has not exposed my Hippy Hop Rabbits yet!
[/quote]
Warning! I'm gonna *piss off* a lot of people with my reply. You've been warned...

I've been asking a lot of people this question - why do all illusionists seem to do the same illusions? I've been watching video and as far as I can tell, the men working the machines are interchangeable since the tricks are the same.

So if this show forces magicians to start doing some original - truly original - material then I think it is a good thing. I mean if I see one more generic magician perform the same set - Fire Cage, Sword Basket/Origami, Twister/Cube Zag/Zig Zag, shadow box, snowstorm, etc... I swear I will puke! I mean come on and show SOME creativity! If this show forces that, then it is very good for magic, and I support the Val's efforts.

Are you mad yet?

Get ready...

And just cause the tricks are exposed does not mean you can't perform them any more. The magic doesn't happen in the box or on the table. It happens in the hearts and minds of the audience. Hate to tell you, but that means that the tricks will never create magic. Magic is an organic result of the relationship between the character and the audience! That being the truth, even if the Twister is revealed you can still perform it, because your original creative presentation will override the mechanical secrets. What? You don't have an original creative presentation? Then, yeah you're screwed.

Mad yet?

Here we go...

This is another reason that magic is dwindling in popularity in Vegas. Magicians are interchangeable since the tricks are the same. I mean who cares? Really?

Well I care. I don't care about the tricks. I care about the performance. About the perception of the audience. I care about creating such original creative magic that it doesn't matter if the secret is known or not, the audience is still captivated by it.

Boys, it is time to face the music and re-examine what we do and why. I know I'll get flamed. I know I've just made enemies. But it needs to be said. Long live the Masked Magician!
Message: Posted by: Justin Style (Nov 19, 2008 02:15PM)
Everybody sing now -

John and Val sitting in a tree. K-i-s-s-i-n-g. First comes love, then comes marriage...then comes John with the baby carriage!
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 19, 2008 02:41PM)
Where's the Tylenol?
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 19, 2008 02:42PM)
Big Daddy Cool,
Looks like we're both gonna burn. I could not agree with you more.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 19, 2008 02:47PM)
Burn baby, burn!
Message: Posted by: Justin Style (Nov 19, 2008 02:47PM)
Me too...I love exposure...love controversy! And anybody who says otherwise is itching for a fight! What really upsets me is that I wasn't asked to do it first!

Anybody wanna know the secret to the USG? Just DP 10 silver dollars and produce them one at a time!


hey now...
Message: Posted by: Donal Chayce (Nov 19, 2008 03:38PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 15:47, Justin Style wrote:
Me too...I love exposure...What really upsets me is that I wasn't asked to do it first!
[/quote]

Justin, based on the reports I got, the last time "exposure" was requested of you, paramedics had to revive everyone in the first three rows. The rest of the audience fled into the street.

:rotf:
Message: Posted by: Justin Style (Nov 19, 2008 03:39PM)
I can't talk about that...yet!
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 19, 2008 03:45PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 15:47, Justin Style wrote:
Anybody wanna know the secret to the USG? Just DP 10 silver dollars and produce them one at a time!
[/quote]

Excellent! Now that I have the secret to USG I'm going to change it to a dozen silvers, re-name it 'ULTIMATE AGENT GRIP' and have it in PDF form by morning. Stay tuned for the news letter...hey now!
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Nov 19, 2008 05:25PM)
Just because we've seen an illusion doesn't mean the majority of the public has. Most Americans will die never seeing any of us, let alone the illusions that was listed above as someone being tired of seeing. Classics are classics for a reason, people enjoy seeing them. Just because we might be tired of seeing them doesn't make exposure right.

I almost need duct tape to wrap around my bald head when I see the masked magician, but then again, most Americans aren't watching him either.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Nov 19, 2008 05:38PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 13:30, Dennis Michael wrote:
I own this illusion and know it is patented:

Publication Number: 04244566 - Molovinsky; Gale ~ LEVITATION DEVICE - Issued: January 13, 1981 See: Secret Sessions [url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=168338&forum=37]Patents[/url]

Can the Mask Magician legally do this?
It is the exact design and equipment I have.
[/quote]

Patents expire after 20 years so this illusion is now in the public domain
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Nov 19, 2008 05:49PM)
Big Daddy Cool, you have no respect for the art. And for other magicians.
Do us a favor, leave magic. Agent 61, why don't you do the same?!

Dennis, I know how hard it can be, believe me. I fully understand that you worry about all this. I do too.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 19, 2008 06:03PM)
I got an email from Gale wanting to know if anybody taped that show?
Message: Posted by: Justin Style (Nov 19, 2008 06:12PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 16:45, agent61 wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 15:47, Justin Style wrote:
Anybody wanna know the secret to the USG? Just DP 10 silver dollars and produce them one at a time!
[/quote]

Excellent! Now that I have the secret to USG I'm going to change it to a dozen silvers, re-name it 'ULTIMATE AGENT GRIP' and have it in PDF form by morning. Stay tuned for the news letter...hey now!
[/quote]

Curses...foiled again!
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 19, 2008 06:16PM)
I am not like others and have this upset me, as it may appears. There are millions of people out there who never saw the "classic" illusions, and they still play well, especially the Gamolo. The zombie and the many variations of them are still being used, as well as the many of the others that have been exposed.

I just thought it was a big mistake for FOX and the Mask Magician to expose one that could very well be legally protected, especially when it belong to a lawyer!

As for Big Daddy Cool, he too missed my "Hippy Hop Rabbit" pun, I am not mad at all because I don't make a living out of illusions, I am a children entertainer first. I love theater and know what Big Daddy Cool is saying. My only disagreement is I still love watching the classics of magic, and I know many others feel like I do. I especially enjoy the many variations of levitations as well as variations of how the Gamolo is presented. (Wacky Dracky and Morgan do it so extremely well!)

I was just surprised no one picked up on the blatant Gamolo exposure..
Message: Posted by: Payne (Nov 19, 2008 06:36PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 19:16, Dennis Michael wrote:

I just thought it was a big mistake for FOX and the Mask Magician to expose one that could very well be legally protected, especially when it belong to a lawyer!

[/quote]

The patent has expired so the device is no longer protected. Plus a patent doesn't protect it from being exposed. It just affords the creator a level of protection he can use to keep the unauthorized copies off the market.

Since all patent information is in the public record it was for all intents and purposes "exposed" the second the patent was published.
Message: Posted by: L Trunk (Nov 19, 2008 07:21PM)
Payne is spot on with this.

Exposing something would be an issue is if the exposer had signed a non-disclosure agreement, not with a patent.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 19, 2008 07:28PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 18:49, Magicque wrote:
Big Daddy Cool, you have no respect for the art. And for other magicians.
Do us a favor, leave magic. Agent 61, why don't you do the same?!

Dennis, I know how hard it can be, believe me. I fully understand that you worry about all this. I do too.
[/quote]
How do you really feel?

I mean really, don't hold anything back...

And which art do you speak?
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 19, 2008 07:52PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 18:49, Magicque wrote:
Big Daddy Cool, you have no respect for the art. And for other magicians.
Do us a favor, leave magic. Agent 61, why don't you do the same?!
[/quote]

Do ME a favor and speak for yourself rather than assuming you represent all magicians. If others share your point of view let THEM join in on the discussion.
And your suggestion that I should 'leave' magic...well that speaks volumes about you and your inability to tolerate points of view different than your own.

For the record, I don't like exposure. But like John, I also dislike the same thing being performed over and over again. Why is it magic is the only artform where everyone performs the same thing and it's seen as normal by us magicians??
In most other disciplines the idea is to set yourself apart, to be unique; creatively different.
If music genres had not evolved over time, had musicians not strived to be unique and original furthering their craft, would we care about music today?? What if artists had not progressed forward, painting the same things, the same way using the same techniques and not evolving in any significant way. Would we have the same reverence and respect for artwork that we do today??

An artform is an artform because of it's rich history, it's ever growing, evolving and improving nature with artists who strive for uniqueness and creative substance. Magic, in a lot of cases, seems to be nothing more than changing the music and painting the Zig-Zag green instead of red. That's not furthering the art of magic. It's just more of the same. Magic NEEDS to creatively progressive FORWARD in order to survive and continue to garner respect and retain it's 'artform' status.

Believe me, I feel for ANYONE that's had ANYTHING taken from them or exposed.
That's not fair. But guess what? Life ain't fair and exposure happens. So no better time then the present to use this opportunity to grow and creatively move forward. Investing in something new, something more uniquely creative might be the better route in the long run, for you as a performer and for magic as an artform.

Do you still think I should leave magic? ;)
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 19, 2008 07:52PM)
Dear gawd....there is a reason I avoid threads like this. I'm not even going to bother....
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 19, 2008 07:55PM)
LOL! Yeah rants suck don't they?? hahaha
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Nov 19, 2008 08:03PM)
You forgot one thing...There are still magicians out there who feed their children with "old" illusions...
I'll answer your question. Yes, you don't belong here.
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 19, 2008 08:12PM)
Ouch...
Message: Posted by: Dr. Delusion (Nov 19, 2008 08:44PM)
Heck, that's all I have is old illusions. Zig Zag, Doll House, Palquin, Assistants Revenge. I have no skills what so ever to even attempt to build something, and there's no way I can afford buying anything brand new. The good part is that the folks all seem to enjoy seeing them, and better yet, not once has anyone came up after a show and told me they seen the masked knucklehead doing one of them.
I say, LONG LIVE THE OLD STUFF !!!
Bob.
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 19, 2008 09:00PM)
LOL!
Look, I like old stuff Bob believe me.
Two of my all time favorite illusions are Origami and Disembodied Princess.
and both of those are performed a lot. I guess for me it would be nice to see
newer illusions be introduced alongside the older ones; have new 'standard' illusions take center stage ya know??
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 20, 2008 12:50AM)
Must...not...destroy...their....souls....

I will say one thing. A gent who performed in a freakin' zoot suit isn't exactly screaming with originality. There, I feel better.

Dang it . Why do they keep draging me in?

I'll do a condensed version. First off if you are a magician then the secret is an absolute component of the art, magic is not stage theater. On stage you can have a clearly fake backdrop or a rope holding up something, or a car that is clearly painted on plywood because it IS the performance that sells the show. In magic people are looking for the wire or mirror and we MUST do what we can to avoid tipping to the audience the mode. If BCD or Agent61 are performing original pieces created by them please let us know what they are. I've read BCD's book, I enjoyed it, it ain't an original show from a magical perspective if that was indeed a representation of his show. The producers of the show with the masked magician, who I don't believe for a minute is a magician, is generated for no reason other than to generate income for those involved with it. If you believe they are attempting to push the art forward then you are a dupe.

That being said there are far and away more bad performers than good. BCD, to his credit, put more into his show than just walking around and pointing at boxes. Most magicians and illusionist really don't understand how to present magic. They think they get a cute girl, roll crap around, point, and pout that they are illusionist. The problem is they are! There is no emotional hook, there is no charm, there is nothing and those guys should be ashamed of themselved but they make up the bulk of the performers. It isn't a problem with the props, they can be the same illusions everyone else does, and this is where BCD and Agent, I think Agent, are correct, the performer has to improve their presentations and make it an actual show not a freakin' display.

This does NOT mean that it is okay to expose illusions!

If you build up a great show and the audience knows how all the illusions are done you lose the ability to really grab them and make your performance shine. If you don't get that then you, as someone suggested, should get out of magic. Satisfy your highschool drama puke desires doing community theater. It is better you are not part of our art the same as it is better those that don't want to really learn how to present magic should just stay in their living rooms. Illusion is so easy it is sick, give me a guy who can dance and looks good and a couple hot girls and I can tour a show! Give me someone who can talk, understands staging and movement, can sell the hell out of it and I can make a star.

In closing BCD and Agent are wrong, exposure does matter and it is wrong. They are also correct when it comes to the need to improve performance. Just don't roll up on me saying everyone should be original while you're in a cover band.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 20, 2008 04:52AM)
I actually understand what MagicSanta is saying!

There is the theatrical side, the business side, the "magical side", the presentation side, etc. So much more.

The Gamolo is a name of a prop which allows the entertainer to make a heavy object rise. I doubt someone from the lay audience will say, "Oh look, it's the Gamolo"

Magic can work in "plays" as well as a magic show. Somewhere, some how, someone is trying to change a "Magic/Illusion Show" into a full feature stage play. Well that will work and so does sell out performances of "Illusion Shows" They each have their place in the entertaining arts.

We are losing sight of the original posting. At what point is it right/wrong to expose someone's life's work, such as the developer of the Gamolo.

Having had my written work copied from under me, it is a hard thing to correct. Just maybe a lawyer can put a dent into this exposure business.
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Nov 20, 2008 07:01AM)
BDC and company, who gives MM the right to decide what is exposed and not?

Your claims of inventing "new" magic is crap.

Are you going to tell kids there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny so you can invent somthing new?

This argument is really lame.

Richard
Message: Posted by: Vick (Nov 20, 2008 09:32AM)
ARRGGGGGRRRR

Therein lies the crux of the problem


MAGIC IS THEATER!!!!!


MagicSanta
I strongly agree with your take on what most magicians do in big box shows

I'll be back to rant later


and while I'm not thrilled about the MM, how many people are actually watching that show? Do you actually listen to it. It's painful to hear. I think it's aimed at males 13-30 who don't know any women


p.s. I am performing original pieces
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2008 10:02AM)
Ok lets not get me banned here.

Lets be realistic. Bid Daddy has done more to try to inspire original thought, and bring THEATER to the magic world than most if not all. Even to the point of writing a great book on the subject of expanding your horizons of where to work.

To say to him to get out of magic is just not well thought out as a position.

I agree with BDC. There I am not banned.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 20, 2008 10:49AM)
The Masked Magician is a magician. But he's also an actor who is acting badly to disquise his identity.

Look, I did not say I was in favor of wholesale exposure. I'm in favor of moving our artform in new, exciting and creative ways.

Yes, Steve I chose a period. Not because it had never been done, but it is part of who I am and what I like. And you are right that in my book, I do not provide any "new" magic. What I hoped to impart is a new way for magicians to look at magic and hopefully encourage them to create presentations that magic the magic uniquely their own by giving them solid examples.

Would I openly expose a magic trick? Probably not, but I don't fret about it because I know the real secret isn't the mechanics.

By the way guys, I do a Super X Suspension. It's the most exposed levitation/suspension ever. Guess what? Audiences still cheer and stand to their feet.

It ain't the trick, charley.
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Nov 20, 2008 11:36AM)
Thanks Richard! You are RIGHT!!!
Hey Agent 61 and BDC, it's OK to invent new effects but it never gives you the right to write stupid comments like "LONG LIVE THE MASKED MAGICIAN"!!!!
I cannot believe a magician writing such words! And agent61 that says that he couldn't agree more...
Go say these words in front of Copperfield who had some of his effects shown...Try it...Meet him after a show and tell him you agree with the Masked Moron...Come back here and tell the guys what he told you...OK?!
I once heard Copperfield mention (in a show) "if you are the MM, kiss my A--".

Agent61 and BDC will certainly come here and tell the people that they KNOW magic...Hide in your closets instead...Please.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 20, 2008 11:51AM)
I live in The United States of America bud. That gives me the right to say whatever I want. 1st Amendment... Free Speech... You mighta heard of it.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 20, 2008 12:02PM)
BDC, as I said you have made more effort than most do, far more. You also have a solid background in theater. You are correct in that for a successful show the performer must be bigger than the prop but, and this is the big but, to believe that it is okay for magic to be exposed is wrong. I realize you are not, hopefully, saying it is good to expose illusions because the simple fact is if you came out with a completely new conciept people who 'think' they know how it is done will still 'think' they know.

You say the 'real secret isn't the mechanics' and you are correct but I think semantics come into play. The secrets of magic are an extremely important part of magic, without it you do not have magic. The KEY is to be able to present the magic or illusion in an entertaining way. I'm a member of the school where one developes a character, as BDC has, and builds the show around that character, a magical play in a sense. It shouldn't be eleven displays of boxes while pointing, in that sense the character needs to be original, absolutely, but even less people will watch "Secrets of Character Development for Stage Exposed".

Magic is, as Vick said, theater and when Houdin said "a magician is an actor playing the role of a magician" or whatever the exact quote is it should be taken in context of the writing before and after that line. In my opinion what Houdin meant was that when on stage you need to be performing magic as if you really had the powers that you are exhibiting. That means you do not tip the methods, you do not say 'it is just a trick', you are playing the role of a magician the same as if a stage actor was playing a thug, stay in character. The bizarrist, the true ones, understand this, and hopefully more of you will.

BDC, you know who that femme masked magician is? Tip it, exposure is good, it will him him grow as a performer. Note: I still think the most insulting part of that show is the dialog, the masked magician doesn't bother me nearly as much as the host.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2008 12:02PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-20 12:51, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
I live in The United States of America bud. That gives me the right to say whatever I want. 1st Amendment... Free Speech... You mighta heard of it.
[/quote]

My guess actually is no he hasn't.
Message: Posted by: musicman20190 (Nov 20, 2008 12:07PM)
Well, I am going to chime in. I do not make a living at performing.

For those who say that exposure is a good thing because it will force more magicians to use original material is ludicrous. People wo are creative and can think out of the box will always create. Those of us who can't, buy DVD's and read books.

In fact, I would argue that it might make someone not publish any material in fear that it would be exposed.


The masked magician may be making big bucks as well as Fox, but when push comes to shove, this type of show hurts the little guy and they should be ashamed of themselves. What is the benefit of having a show like this?. I cannot see one redeeming quality of his type of broadcast.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2008 12:15PM)
I think I have another thought which will not get me banned.

If you break down magic to no more than the sum of its secrets you may want to think about the way you are doing magic in the first place. The performance is so much more than the tricks, (see BDC as an example) and if you simply say 'oh they exposed my tricks I am not a magician who can fool anyone any more', my contention is that perhaps you were not fooling as many people as you think in the first place. (It is possible you were fooling only one person, yourself)

Is exposure good? NOT the case I am making.

Oh another thought. Guys who expose tricks because they suck at magic (read as a HUGE portion of the magic world) do far more damage than any person who exposes magic on TV.

Why you ask? Well they leave a bad taste in the mouth of the viewer. Seeing the exact same tricks done the exact same way by seemingly the exact same people. Then seeing the exact same tricks exposed because of a lack of talent. Spend your energy trying to tackle this problem.

Or better yet buy a Donkey and find a windmill.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 20, 2008 12:29PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-20 13:02, MagicSanta wrote:
BDC, as I said you have made more effort than most do, far more. You also have a solid background in theater. You are correct in that for a successful show the performer must be bigger than the prop but, and this is the big but, to believe that it is okay for magic to be exposed is wrong. I realize you are not, hopefully, saying it is good to expose illusions because the simple fact is if you came out with a completely new conciept people who 'think' they know how it is done will still 'think' they know.

You say the 'real secret isn't the mechanics' and you are correct but I think semantics come into play. The secrets of magic are an extremely important part of magic, without it you do not have magic. The KEY is to be able to present the magic or illusion in an entertaining way. I'm a member of the school where one developes a character, as BDC has, and builds the show around that character, a magical play in a sense. It shouldn't be eleven displays of boxes while pointing, in that sense the character needs to be original, absolutely, but even less people will watch "Secrets of Character Development for Stage Exposed".

Magic is, as Vick said, theater and when Houdin said "a magician is an actor playing the role of a magician" or whatever the exact quote is it should be taken in context of the writing before and after that line. In my opinion what Houdin meant was that when on stage you need to be performing magic as if you really had the powers that you are exhibiting. That means you do not tip the methods, you do not say 'it is just a trick', you are playing the role of a magician the same as if a stage actor was playing a thug, stay in character. The bizarrist, the true ones, understand this, and hopefully more of you will.

BDC, you know who that femme masked magician is? Tip it, exposure is good, it will him him grow as a performer. Note: I still think the most insulting part of that show is the dialog, the masked magician doesn't bother me nearly as much as the host.
[/quote]

I agree with everything you said. We just have different ways of saying it.

I *think* I know who he is. I'll tip it when I know for sure.

Posted: Nov 20, 2008 1:33pm
Quote:


On 2008-11-20 13:07, musicman20190 wrote:
What is the benefit of having a show like this?. I cannot see one redeeming quality of his type of broadcast.


well, how many people do you think the show provides a job for?
Message: Posted by: Justin Style (Nov 20, 2008 12:34PM)
The reason I stopped going to big conventions is because I was being ripped off.
How?

By seeing the same ol B.S. stage shows. Same crap over and over and over. Not only that, but I was tired of seeing repeats of the SAME trick in the same show!

I will bet that not one person here can say they went to a convention, watched the stage show and saw all separate, individual acts with NO REPEATS!?

Magic is the only art where you go to see a show and are subjected to watch the same effect performed more than once but different performers!

Imagine going to see a concert and the opening act, the middle act and the closer all sing at least one of the same songs! Who would stand for that?

Ponderous!!!


Not only do these guys all do the same slop, MANY (if not EVERY) times in the same show!

Pathetic.

I used to sell thumb tips on the street in Times Square. Every now and again some schmo magician would wonder by and complain if not threaten me about "exposing" a secret. I would laugh right in his face and say you want to hear a secret, if you don't haul your butt down the road; I'm going to separate your thumb from your tip.

Expose it all!!!

I am not against exposure.

I am against people who rip people off.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Nov 20, 2008 01:06PM)
Justin, you continue making little to no sense.

At the end of the day most magicians suck and that is because it is an interesting field that is easy to do for the most part. If you are going to perform, be it for kids shows or large scale illusion shows, do as Bob Dylan said, learn your song well before you play it.
Message: Posted by: Vick (Nov 20, 2008 04:12PM)
Magicque - please relax, this isn't personal it's an open forum discussion with very different opinions ...

... and if we all thought the same way the world would be very boring


MagicSanta - agreed that most magicians are bloody well awful! Some "tricks" may be pretty much self working (presentation is a totally different story) I don't think performing magic is easy, if it was we wouldn't have so many do so poorly


Seeing the same tricks (can't call it magic because of the lack of performance) over and over denigrates the art and as it's been said here a poor performer exposing but not on purpose harms the art much more than TV exposure on a terrible show


Some of MM's recent exposures are laughable, did you see zig zag girl? His method, very impractical and way too much "work".

If you want real exposure here it is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zig_Zag_Girl

You guys up in arms go take on Wikipedia to work off some steam.
Please note I in no way support this exposure but if you're angry about MM maybe take off some steam at Wikipedia and not on posters here


Getting beyond that, if the majority of your audience wonders HOW you did it, then you presentation isn't strong enough
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 20, 2008 04:49PM)
:applause:
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Nov 20, 2008 06:32PM)
Well. I think I have enough...

Lose your coins, I'm gone and some people here are J---KS...
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 20, 2008 08:29PM)
See ya...
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Nov 20, 2008 09:24PM)
Back to Dennis original point.............

If I were Gail, I would quietly file suit against the network, the writers, every advertiser in the show, every network afflilate, mm and any and everybody for mega, mega bucks for lost of income and theft and exposure of patented information. He does have a clear patent on this item.

Do not publize the suit as this is what they want. Just quietly sue the heck out of them and see where it goes. I think there is a very good case for a judgement entry here.

Richard
Message: Posted by: Payne (Nov 20, 2008 09:50PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-20 22:24, hugmagic wrote:
Back to Dennis original point.............

If I were Gail, I would quietly file suit against the network, the writers, every advertiser in the show, every network afflilate, mm and any and everybody for mega, mega bucks for lost of income and theft and exposure of patented information. He does have a clear patent on this item.

Do not publize the suit as this is what they want. Just quietly sue the heck out of them and see where it goes. I think there is a very good case for a judgement entry here.

Richard
[/quote]

Um, no. He no longer has a patent for this illusion as it expired several years ago. Patents do not offer permanent protection. They are only good for twenty years. Plus I'll wager the network has far deeper pockets than the illusion builder and can afford to keep any suit like this tied up in court for years and years.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 20, 2008 11:07PM)
Guys,
Gale is a lawyer, and he is interested in this, as I have been in communication with him. No details other than Gale wanting a tape of that segment. If, as Payne commented, about the length of a patent was true, then is Gale just curious of another exposing his creation?

Only time will tell.
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 21, 2008 07:07AM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-20 13:34, Justin Style wrote:
The reason I stopped going to big conventions is because I was being ripped off.
How?

By seeing the same ol B.S. stage shows. Same crap over and over and over. Not only that, but I was tired of seeing repeats of the SAME trick in the same show!

I will bet that not one person here can say they went to a convention, watched the stage show and saw all separate, individual acts with NO REPEATS!?

Magic is the only art where you go to see a show and are subjected to watch the same effect performed more than once but different performers!

Imagine going to see a concert and the opening act, the middle act and the closer all sing at least one of the same songs! Who would stand for that?

Ponderous!!!


Not only do these guys all do the same slop, MANY (if not EVERY) times in the same show!

Pathetic.

I used to sell thumb tips on the street in Times Square. Every now and again some schmo magician would wonder by and complain if not threaten me about "exposing" a secret. I would laugh right in his face and say you want to hear a secret, if you don't haul your butt down the road; I'm going to separate your thumb from your tip.

Expose it all!!!

I am not against exposure.

I am against people who rip people off.
[/quote]

Careful Justin, you might get a PM from an anyonomous "working pro" who resorts to calling you a jack *** and *** hole for your thoughts and opinions.

Ain't it funny who small minded some people can be?

And if you people reading this think I am talking about you, then I am.

Catch ya on the flip-side!
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Nov 21, 2008 08:16AM)
Yeah this would be my first taste of 'flaming' since I joined in May.
Thankfully I have tough skin so I take none of it personally. Disagreeing with me, finding my arguement 'really lame' or 'ludicrous' is fair game, I respect that viewpoint. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

But I have to wonder about people who cross the line and tell me I don't belong here, to hide in a closet and I'm a jerk. It's a discussion, not grudge-match...
Message: Posted by: Silver_Fang (Nov 22, 2008 08:07PM)
Does this look familiar?
[url=http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=02034407&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D2034407.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F2034407%2526RS%3DPN%2F2034407&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page]patimg1.uspto.gov[/url]


Posted: Nov 22, 2008 11:08pm
------------------------------
To elaborate more on my previous post here is my view.

It is cycle kind of like the economy. It season ended, newer better illusion where created, and now he is back in this magic recession, and soon it will pass and better illusions will be made.

I know we as a community can tough this out until we hit the recovery or expansion period of magic and illusion.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Nov 23, 2008 02:39AM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-20 13:02, MagicSanta wrote:

BDC, you know who that femme masked magician is? Tip it, exposure is good, it will him him grow as a performer. Note: I still think the most insulting part of that show is the dialog, the masked magician doesn't bother me nearly as much as the host.
[/quote]

I think the the narrator of that show is also the narrator of "Cheaters" in the video investigation segments. And he sounds just as scurrilous, suggestive and lurid as he does on MM. Go Figure...
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 23, 2008 03:09AM)
The fact that the performance is what differentiates is one thing, but it's a weak argument.
There are hundred tousands of people who buy the same car: it doesn't give the right to a third party to steal yours if you properly acquired it with your cash (cash being realy the measure of life time and efforts spent to acquire something).
Now admittedly magicians have a misconception: to deposit a patent, you have to describe precisely what you are protecting. This means you have to reveal exactly the part you protect. You cannot protect an idea, but only a process.

Thus the detestable discloser is doing (relative) dammages to our art but he is only breaking the law if he USES the patented illusion without previously negotiating the royalties. This is where he can be nailed: his performance or reproduction rights of someone else's performance which serves to illustrate his disclosure.
On that ground the IBM could do a class action against the channel for a lot of money but it hs to be based on a legal basis that has ground.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 23, 2008 06:55AM)
As with many cases involving performance as well as what the Mask Magician does, it would be a lengthy process with dubious outcomes. It is sure not worth the stress and money.

In this situation, Gale being a lawyer, he would know his rights or at least know the person who would give him the correct answers. Is it worth the challenge? Will he lose money or make more money from broad TV exposure?
Message: Posted by: Steve Burton (Nov 24, 2008 12:25PM)
The damage done by the exposure specials is considerable. The loss of revenue from the manufacturers is one aspect that seems to be ignored. Why buy something if it has been exposed to millions of viewers? There is also a movement among inventors to not market their products because they don't want them to be ripped off and exposed. Is this good for magic generally? It seems to be forcing creative people to hide their work so they are not victimized and therefore making those works inaccessible to legitimate performers.

The lament of so many of the same effects performed at magic conventions may well be a factor in this situation. Are the performers are only presenting their most well-known effects for magic conventions so they are not subjected to having their most inventive effects stolen? Given this free for all theft and exposure atmosphere I know I would be loathe to trot out a innovative new illusion. Why risk it?
Message: Posted by: magikist (Nov 24, 2008 06:45PM)
Regarding the original post to this thread, it might be helpful to remember Goldin:

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/1994/3/1994_3_34.shtml
Message: Posted by: Paulo Cabrita (Nov 24, 2008 07:44PM)
The mask must to be Stoped in USA! We make for all the world this tv shows!
They never will Stop with this shows. In all of the world the magicians feel ruined.

Paulo
Message: Posted by: JRob (Nov 24, 2008 10:26PM)
I still think it is foolish to take out a patent on a magic apparatus since the patent process carries a built-in exposure (as underlined by the above mentioned article on Goldin)
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 25, 2008 09:53AM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-24 20:44, Paulo Cabrita wrote:
The mask must to be Stoped in USA! We make for all the world this tv shows!
They never will Stop with this shows. In all of the world the magicians feel ruined.

Paulo
[/quote]
Well I don't feel ruined, and they actually exposed a trick very similar to one I use in "Roxy."

I don't feel ruined one bit.

Wanna know why? I watched it with my dad & his girlfriend. Even after the trick was exposed they still didn't "get it." Magic mechanics are far more complicated than the average laymen is ready to digest. Further, they just aren't that complelling. My dad changed the channel as soon as a commercial came on...
Message: Posted by: Paulo Cabrita (Nov 25, 2008 12:21PM)
Philosofy words about the exposure of our secrets, or maybe the best workshop for magicians!
Lucky men if you fell good...
The Mask is protected,lucky Mask...
Paulo
Message: Posted by: jimhlou (Nov 26, 2008 05:21PM)
The masked magician is an a**h**e. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hes's an a**. He was once an accomplished magician, and has sold out for $$$$.

I don't think very many people actually watch this program. Ask around and see what response you get. The ones that do see it will quickly forget what they saw. They may remember some of the larger concepts, such as "she's held up by a bar", but won't remember much more than that.

The masked a**h**le exposed "Things that go bump in the Night", a favorite of Doug Henning. The method exposed was IDENTICAL to the method that Lance Burton uses. What was the reason for that? Does this guy have a bone to pick with magicians in general, or some in particular? Why didn't he use a box or container or something other than a teepee?

As far as patents are concerned, the mechanics of the device are patented, not the secret. You can't produce the same product without some type of royalty agreement. But, to my knowledge, you can expose the secret without any penalty.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Kingry (Nov 26, 2008 06:23PM)
We are far more interested than the average layman. The more he shows, the less they remember. I also own a Gamolo, once he shows a few hundred more secrets, it will be lost in the shuffle.
Message: Posted by: Anverdi-museum (Nov 27, 2008 03:32AM)
Hey All, Thought I would put my 'two cents' in regarding this issue. First I would have to say magic has sunk to an all time LOW, this ***hole Masked Magician is proof of this fact. He has gone way beyond anyone should have treaded and it really is a shame. As a working pro as well as magic inventor/builder I can sympathize with both the magician and the dealer aspects as well as as the art of magic itself. If we as magical entertainers own any of these illusions as well as the recently revealed apparatus magic, my advice it to pack them away for a few years before attempting to perform them again. Assuming no one has seen these shows in nonsense, I feel a change of tone in my own performances recently from lay folks stating "Oh, I know how everything is done, I saw the Masked Magician on television"...

Look, the bottom line is that this jerk sold out. He obviously could not make two nickels to rub together as a legitimate performer ( as well as the first masked ***hole from years ago ) or he would not have crossed the line so to speak and expose magic. This not only hurts the struggling magicians who spent thousands on items that are currently useless as well as builders who will not be able to move diddly squat to an overall negative 'feel' in the field of magic.

Back in the 1930's David Devant was ostracized and dealt with harshly by his contemporaries for exposing a few of HIS OWN illusions. If the effects were the Masked Magicians own creations he was exposing I would have no problem with what he is doing, but this clumsy boob barely knows how to neatly shuffle a deck of cards let alone stake a claim to his own effects.

I know a lot of talented individuals who have some great new ideas who are very reluctant to share these with the magic community for fear of the ideas being exposed or mis-used, myself included.

So you see, good ol' Valentino's excuse of past " I exposed these illusions so magicians will lay these tired ideas and come up with new ones" has basically backfired as there is no foundation to this thinking. In other words, inventors are keeping most of their ground breaking effects to themselves because of this mess.

I will take my best ideas to the grave thanks to the Masked ***hole!!

Magically,

Chuck C.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Nov 27, 2008 03:40AM)
Within the past 3 weeks I have been asked "...If I saw that guy on TV who shows how the tricks are done?" 5 times. This is more than I've ever been asked about this type of thing ever.

There is such thing as a "critical mass" and "tipping points" where ideas get firmly embedded into the public's consciousness. It takes a long time to get it out of their heads by that time. I think it's gotten to that point with the general public now, unfortunately.
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (Nov 27, 2008 10:14AM)
When people ask me about these exposures, I tell them that these are anachronistic tricks and the methods the masked magcian uses are no longer used by pro magicians. It's not totally true, but if enough magicians respond this way, this disinformation will help discredit the "exposure".
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 27, 2008 11:10AM)
I swear you'd think the sky was falling by reading some of these posts!

Between the so-called recession and the MM you'd think magicians are ready to pack it in and die a slow death... Sheesh.

All the hoopla over the MM is unwarranted. I stand by my earlier post that we need a shot in the arm to force new originality and creativity. THose who perform original, unique, creative material will never have to fear exposure.

Case in point - Everyone knows how the linking rings work. It has been one of the most exposed tricks in history. I mean really do you honestly believe that there is anyone in your audience who doesn't know that one of the rings has a big freakin' hole in it? Yet, when someone sees Cellini do the rings they are completely amazed. His artistry superceeds the method. I could cite example after after example and you probably could too. PRESENTATION ALWAYS TRUMPS METHOD!

HOWEVER, even if this weren't true there is another reason not to get yer panties in a wad. Statistically speaking NOBODY is watching this show. The ratings prove this out, and the people who ARE watching are people already interested in magic. The first MM sparked interest in a now famous Angela Funovits. Not a bad result... But consider this as well. I spent 7 years as an A&R, and Marketing Director for several major record labels. My job was to dictate what the public would like, listen to and buy (we made the decision, not you). Anyway at the time Madonna still ruled the charts and sales figures. At her peak, her best selling album sold 20 million WORLDWIDE, only 4 million of those in the US. Do the math girls, there are nearly 300 MILLION people in the US alone. Only 4 Million bought her records. What is that percentage? Less than 5%? Statsically, noboby was buying her music. And she was a pop music icon, with maximum exposure in every media format known to man, and yet the best she could do was 4 million.

Now, consider the MM - an anyonomous "magician" of questionable skill, on an independant network not even available in all markets, on a Monday night against the the NFL, WWE, and countless other popular network and cable shows. Do the math people... NOBODY is watching this show. And if they are then they already love magic. USE that to your advantage! Don't hide from it.

So put your cube zag away if you think you must, but I recommend you spend time creating a good presentation.

Let that hang on the clothesline of yer mind...
Message: Posted by: Paulo Cabrita (Nov 27, 2008 04:59PM)
Superman...

Paulo
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Nov 27, 2008 05:23PM)
BDC, if the MM was exposing your creations, you are saying that 5% of the US knowing how you did it is acceptable to you, correct?
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 27, 2008 08:30PM)
Yes, that would be acceptable - however there is no way that the MM reaches even near 5%. How I do something is not nearly as important as why. For more on the foundation of this thought read Magic & Meaning by Eugene Burger and Robert Neale.
Message: Posted by: Josh Chaikin (Nov 27, 2008 09:17PM)
Let's remember that Anneman said he would have 99 people in on one effect to fool one person. Seems that's a bit in line with exposure too. I'm not equating stooges to exposure, but the 5% certainly does parallel that example.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Nov 27, 2008 11:02PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-27 21:30, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Yes, that would be acceptable - however there is no way that the MM reaches even near 5%. How I do something is not nearly as important as why. For more on the foundation of this thought read Magic & Meaning by Eugene Burger and Robert Neale.
[/quote]


BDC, It's possible the reason you have not been contacted by the IBM for their convention is your position on exposure, which runs counter to the IBM's stated bylaws...
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (Nov 28, 2008 02:55AM)
[/quote]
well, how many people do you think the show provides a job for?
[/quote]

I work for Fox part time (freelancer), and they're hurting for money bigtime! This show is doing NOTHING for them as far as income.... the ratings are horrible. They're actually talking about reducing freelance work!! Noooooooooo!!!

mike

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 3:56am
Quote:


On 2008-11-20 13:33, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Quote:


On 2008-11-20 13:07, musicman20190 wrote:
What is the benefit of having a show like this?. I cannot see one redeeming quality of his type of broadcast.

well, how many people do you think the show provides a job for?


I work for Fox part time (freelancer), and they're hurting for money big time! This show is doing nothing for them as far as income. The ratings are horrible.

Sorry about the double post here! Still new at this...
mike
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Nov 28, 2008 07:50AM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 19:03, Dennis Michael wrote:
I got an email from Gale wanting to know if anybody taped that show?
[/quote]

They've all been posted on youtube.. I bet that one's there too
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Nov 28, 2008 08:37AM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-28 00:02, gaddy wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-11-27 21:30, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Yes, that would be acceptable - however there is no way that the MM reaches even near 5%. How I do something is not nearly as important as why. For more on the foundation of this thought read Magic & Meaning by Eugene Burger and Robert Neale.
[/quote]

BDC, It's possible the reason you have not been contacted by the IBM for their convention is your position on exposure, which runs counter to the IBM's stated bylaws...
[/quote]

Could be...

But I submitted long before this was ever a topic here.

If it is a reason, then I'm cool with it. I also know that some in the "establishment" agree with me. They've sent me e-mail in support...
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 28, 2008 11:17AM)
I sent gale that link on You-tube. Poor quality, but it is enough
for him to see it.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Nov 28, 2008 03:14PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-28 09:37, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-11-28 00:02, gaddy wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-11-27 21:30, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Yes, that would be acceptable - however there is no way that the MM reaches even near 5%. How I do something is not nearly as important as why. For more on the foundation of this thought read Magic & Meaning by Eugene Burger and Robert Neale.
[/quote]

BDC, It's possible the reason you have not been contacted by the IBM for their convention is your position on exposure, which runs counter to the IBM's stated bylaws...
[/quote]

Could be...

But I submitted long before this was ever a topic here.

If it is a reason, then I'm cool with it. I also know that some in the "establishment" agree with me. They've sent me e-mail in support...
[/quote]

Fair enough. I'm glad you're getting the support you desire.

To me exposure is like pornography. It can be very difficult to define, it's almost 100% cheap, tawdry and demeaning to something that was once beautiful artistic and noble. But it's not something that one can, or perhaps even should, want to ban outright for fear of what may be lost in the process...

I find it repulsive in the extreme, and at the same time cannot begrudge someone (except in a mocking or shunning sort of way) who feels the need to use it to further their ends (whatever those may be)...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 28, 2008 05:08PM)
One of the questions people don't ask too often is "how specifically does explaining a trick help the audience?"

Well?
Message: Posted by: Paulo Cabrita (Nov 28, 2008 07:24PM)
Or help the magician?

Paulo
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 28, 2008 07:38PM)
No idea what you mean by magician Paulo - though it does give exhibitionists who don't have the guts to show themselves a ploy to get some attention without personal risk. Somewhere between gossip and flashing.

Now if those involved in such projects wanted to expose the mechanics of social distraction and leading and anchoring as regards "why one accepts the unthinkable as commonplace"... well that would show some understanding of applied conjuring methods and some strength of character.

See Milgram and keep reading. The power of belief indeed.
Message: Posted by: Gianni (Nov 29, 2008 01:33AM)
I don't know if this is the right forum to post this, so I'll take advice if there is a better one. I have seen some of these MM shows and cringe. I won't expand my views in this post because it has another purpose. I am interested in having a complete list of the tricks exposed on the MM. For example, I have seen the following items exposed:

1. IT
2. Cigarette through quarter
3. zombie
4. a big illusion called Assistant's Revenge
5. a floating table
6. a big illusion of a magician walking through a spinning fan
7. a big illusion of making an elephant appear in a parking lot
8. bending a spoon
9. a table effect similar to Bill Abbott's "The Thing"
10. the big illusion cited in a post above showing the patent for the effect
11. an illusion of ramming a sword through the middle of a woman

I would be interested in additional information. Thank you.

Gianni
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 29, 2008 06:27AM)
Somebody had a list on another post somewhere.

Posted: Nov 29, 2008 7:35am
I ask Gale what could be done about the exposure of his Gamolo. I respect gale's opinion because he is an attorney and this was his response:
---------------------
Dear Dennis,

My illusion is patented, licensed to "my purchaser."

Owning performance rights, and actually recovering significantly from an infringement or an unlicensed use of same is, under American intellectual property law, another matter entirely.

As a practical matter, considering the roadblocks & delay the TV producers would erect, it is really not worth the candle. My name wasn't mentioned, and they didn't say explicitly, this "is how David Copperfield or Gale Molovinsky does the levitation, etc., etc."...... they really just presented it as a generic explanation of "how magicians float a lady in the air." In a sick sense, I should be flattered by the use of my illusion for the explanation, but of course, no one viewing the show will realize it is mine.

I assume they employed it because they didn't want to go to the expense of purchasing a more expensive levitation.

Best regards,
Gale
------------

Like Gale, I experienced similar "copy infringement", and was told, it was not worth the effort, by a panel of copyright lawyers.
Message: Posted by: Vick (Nov 29, 2008 09:25AM)
Well, again while I'm not thrilled about it and the show has no traction

The performer (whoever this MM is, an older heavier Val Valentino?) is bloody well awful. Even with wearing gloves his technique, presentation and mechanics are poor.

Beyond that the example of linking rings and it all being about presentation are correct. Performing rings for less than 2 years and always get a great reaction (love the audible audience gasp, always in the same place). It has to do with the story told when introducing the rings and closing the piece. The piece is well set up, I engage the audience and bring them along for a ride and a piece of history.


There is nothing we can do about this clown exposing on TV but there is something YOU CAN DO ABOUT YOUR PRESENTATION!!!!


You got it off your chest, now go work to give your audience the experience they deserve
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 1, 2008 07:18AM)
Let's see...

The Magic is being exposed already, regardless of what we say...

It's not worth the time and money to sue, if I understand correctly...

So?

We just go on going on...

Entertain and enjoy entertaining. Get a child and a "child inside" to smile at your Magic if nothing else. Get well paid when possible. :)

Life's too short to worry too much about this. Grasp this fleeting moment for all it's worth. Make it mean something.

Look at what just happened in Mumbai with the terrorist attack. Life IS truly fleeting.

I'll EXPOSE some Magic here and now... :wow:



The Magic is that we are even here.


:online:
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 1, 2008 09:39AM)
Pretty much sums it up Pakar!
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 1, 2008 12:02PM)
Thanks Dennis...

:online:
Message: Posted by: chrusa (Dec 1, 2008 01:54PM)
The thing that gets me is the people that are like "that's ILLEGAL!" "IF you see him on the street beat him up/kill him" I think that is much more illegal (Assault and battery) I am pretty sure that FOX has pretty good lawyers and are covering their bases. There are many more intellectual and mature ways of solving something then beating someone up.
Message: Posted by: MarianoG (Dec 1, 2008 01:58PM)
If the exposed magicians are going to unite in one legal action against him or fox, let me know. I have my trick registered too...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 1, 2008 06:23PM)
CLASS ACTION .... PUNATIVE DAMAGES !!!!!
Could be worth millions. No kidding.
It's the American way :)
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 2, 2008 04:59AM)
But on the subject...I'll side with BDC on this one; quit being clones and it won't matter what you choose to do.
Message: Posted by: amazing_gordo (Dec 2, 2008 09:17AM)
In my opinion, exposure sucks. Period!

And some say this clown is actually good for the art of magic?

How do you figure that, and what color is the sky on YOUR planet?

When I saw the Masked Magician reveal huge stage illusions, I didn't like it, and then I thought: "Well, Copperfield and Angel are rich, they'll be ok."

Then I saw the Masked Mentalcase reveal tricks you can buy at your local magic shop, and I was angry. I have frends who own small shops, and revealing stuff like the cig through quarter, folding coin, etc, is harmful to them making a living.

And THEN, I saw the Masked Moron reveal the cut & restored rope, walking through a pole, etc. etc. which are street magic tricks that I do myself! That affects me personally!

The thing about the MM, is that he is an equal opportunity terrorist. He screws with ALL of us! From the mega-rich Copperfield types, to the poor slob on the street! It's exposure, it's deliberate, it's harmful and it's wrong!

The MM is a thief, a con man and loser! He takes food out of peoples mouths, he destroys careers, he ruins the wonder of tricks and spoils the show for the audience, and he does it all to make a quick buck!

He steals the intellectual property of those who create magic effects, then exposes them on international tv so he can profit from it. He is nothing more than a common criminal!

Bottom Line: He harms innocent people to make money! Those who praise him can bloody well have him!
Message: Posted by: Magicque (Dec 2, 2008 11:22AM)
Amazing_gordo, I think the same. Exactly the same. It's just sad that most of the people here LOVE him
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Dec 2, 2008 11:44AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-02 10:17, amazing_gordo wrote:
In my opinion, exposure sucks. Period!

And some say this clown is actually good for the art of magic?

How do you figure that, and what color is the sky on YOUR planet?

When I saw the Masked Magician reveal huge stage illusions, I didn't like it, and then I thought: "Well, Copperfield and Angel are rich, they'll be ok."

Then I saw the Masked Mentalcase reveal tricks you can buy at your local magic shop, and I was angry. I have frends who own small shops, and revealing stuff like the cig through quarter, folding coin, etc, is harmful to them making a living.

And THEN, I saw the Masked Moron reveal the cut & restored rope, walking through a pole, etc. etc. which are street magic tricks that I do myself! That affects me personally!

The thing about the MM, is that he is an equal opportunity terrorist. He screws with ALL of us! From the mega-rich Copperfield types, to the poor slob on the street! It's exposure, it's deliberate, it's harmful and it's wrong!

The MM is a thief, a con man and loser! He takes food out of peoples mouths, he destroys careers, he ruins the wonder of tricks and spoils the show for the audience, and he does it all to make a quick buck!

He steals the intellectual property of those who create magic effects, then exposes them on international tv so he can profit from it. He is nothing more than a common criminal!

Bottom Line: He harms innocent people to make money! Those who praise him can bloody well have him!
[/quote]

Have you read one word I wrote? I mean really?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 2, 2008 10:07PM)
Did he not read or not agree?
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Dec 2, 2008 10:26PM)
I finally deleted the last couple shows unwatched as they are unwatchable. Man, I love magic but that is a horrible program.
Message: Posted by: Jimeh (Dec 4, 2008 05:39AM)
Yayyyy we can all go back to complaining about other things now! ;)
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Dec 4, 2008 09:20AM)
Thank god! And guess what? The sky didn't fall! Who knew? Oh, yeah...
Message: Posted by: Silver_Fang (Dec 4, 2008 04:36PM)
My point to my entire post (which is now deleted) is that no one has rights to call people derogatory names unless you actually shake hands with them.
Also my entire post did come from my heart three quarters of my post is opinion. I used the internet to aid and in what I am trying to say.
Also FYI I do not own nor used an encyclopedia/ I used the greatest tool created the internet.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Dec 4, 2008 07:08PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-04 10:20, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Thank god! And guess what? The sky didn't fall! Who knew? Oh, yeah...
[/quote]

I'll let you know if I get anymore "Did you see that show...." remarks. The sky may not have fallen, but it's more dreary and there's more smog out there than ever before... Makes me want to stay indoors sometimes.

Despite my revulsion with exposure I, for one, never claimed that "the sky was falling" in any of it's many permutations.

Posted: Dec 4, 2008 8:11pm
Quote:


On 2008-11-29 07:27, Dennis Michael wrote:
Somebody had a list on another post somewhere



Also, check the wiki
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 4, 2008 08:45PM)
I don't know about anyone else. but I contacted several of the local advertisers and let them know what they were financing. They seemed very receptive about the idea of moving their advertising dollars :)
Maybe they did :)
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Dec 7, 2008 10:06PM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-02 23:26, MagicSanta wrote:
I finally deleted the last couple shows unwatched as they are unwatchable. Man, I love magic but that is a horrible program.
[/quote]

Pretty boring. If sponsers are paying big bucks and laymen are actually watching that "off" prime cable show, there is still hope for a bad magician act for sure. :cool:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 8, 2008 02:15PM)
Wait you mean the show was just so bad that nobody turned in to watch? Wow I bet he got MORE PUBLICITY by people who complained, (controversy right? FUELS the media does nobody learn?)

So the idea that if we just let him go his merry way and his show gets canceled maybe it would be canceled sooner if so many goofs didn't turn in to see "what he exposed from my act" and so forth, complained to advertisers and so forth! I have said this from day one. Let it run the course.

Is it good for magic? I never made that arguement. I am saying that Eric Bischoff wrote a book called "Controversy Creates Cash"! Why play into it? Why not let it go as a blip on the radar? Why not be above it all? Why signal to people you are worried about it? THEN THEY MAY ACTUALLY WATCH THE STUPID SHOW! But if nobody cared in the magic community, what is to watch?

Oh never mind. Choir got all that?
Message: Posted by: Nikodini (Dec 8, 2008 05:07PM)
Folks, if you want someone to blame, just look around the magic community.

For as long as tricks are available for sale, we'll have people like MM around. Now, the things are even worse because you can go on YouTube or some video torrent site and download whatever you want.

The only way to stop this is to stop selling your tricks and make a living from performance. That's the only way that would stop most of the exposure. Sure, some people would figure out how stuff works and would expose it but they couldn't figure it out all.

If you sell a trick, don't be surprised if it's exposed!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 8, 2008 05:25PM)
Once you sell a secret, by definition is it still a secret?
Message: Posted by: Big Daddy Cool (Dec 9, 2008 03:39PM)
If it was for sale to begin with, was it really much of a secret?
Message: Posted by: magicjack1977 (Jan 11, 2009 05:48AM)
Haven't Penn & Teller been exposing magic for 20+ years? Every one of their shows that I see, they manage to expose something but people still keep coming back. I think the important thing to remember here is that not everyone see's these shows and that although some may know the secret, all do not and the magic will still be fresh and new for those who haven't - unless your doing the zig zag that is, man that one is played out :)
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Jan 11, 2009 11:35AM)
I'll be uploading part two of my interview with Jim Steinmeyer a bit later today. He discusses the protection of his magic creations and the Masked Magician special in detail. [url=http://www.linkingpage.com]Enjoy![/url]
Message: Posted by: afun14u (Jan 11, 2009 02:56PM)
Wow, this has been a exciting read today...I am on the fence here because most of the illusions talked about that EVERYONE has...so do I! But I agree that we need to think about our shows in a different direction and speaking for myself would love to if the pricing was directed more to my budget insted of thinking we all have the David Copperfield budget!

I do have a major question though...Pyka - didn't I see your name in the credits for the last Masked Magicians show? I know it's not the same guy, and I know this guy spent some time in Nashville...I am just wondering?

Robert
Message: Posted by: tombola (Jan 11, 2009 05:41PM)
I just want to tell you guys that I saw the tv-show before I was into magic, and I thought it was very interesting and fun but I don't think I remembered the methods for very long. And even if I remembered them and I was to see an illusion using the same method, it could be modified just a tiny bit and I would have no idea of how it was done.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say and pardon my spelling.
Message: Posted by: markthorold (Jan 12, 2009 12:44PM)
The show is pure garbage designed for the General public ,As magigians we all know that most of the effects are not the true version and only designed specifically for the "show" ,Laugh it off guys youre bigger than that.
Mark
Message: Posted by: Chris H (Jan 18, 2009 06:14AM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 15:09, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
Boys, it is time to face the music and re-examine what we do and why. I know I'll get flamed. I know I've just made enemies. But it needs to be said. Long live the Masked Magician!
[/quote]

I'm not at all religious, but Amen to that!

Chris
Message: Posted by: en2oh (Jan 21, 2009 10:20PM)
[quote]
On 2008-11-19 21:03, Magicque wrote:
You forgot one thing...There are still magicians out there who feed their children with "old" illusions...
I'll answer your question. Yes, you don't belong here.
[/quote]

Speaking of "Old" Illusions, did anyone see the Civil War Operating Room Table effect on Masters of Illusions the other night? I really was taken aback by that effect. Simple, elegant and very well performed. Give me one or two of those in a show and I know that the future of magic is assured! Who developed that effect? It really left me wondering...
Message: Posted by: Max Krause (Jan 22, 2009 06:07PM)
As much as I hate exposure it will always be there. Be it via the internet, tv or just accidently during a performance. All that we can do as individuals is try and create a show that suits who we are. It is our individuality that can never be taken from us. I think that the way to combat exposure is to perform the same effects that are being exposed in such a way that even those who are "in the know" have absolutely no clue how you did it because you have added that little extra something that was left out of the other performances.

Try and look at the effect and see how it can be changed to look the same but cancel out the exposed method as a solution. You will have the entire audience second guessing the true solution. It is a passion of mine to take classic effects and modernize the methods giving them new life.

After all a car is just four wheels and an engine so why are there so many different brands? Because we all have different likes and dislikes. We want something that suits us. In our budget, lifestyle, belief system, whatever.

I am not condoning exposure. I just think our time is better spent looking at what we have and how we can improve upon it and make it as new and as fresh as we can for our audiences.

We as performers owe it to this art we love so dearly and the audiences we entertain. Keep doing that zig zag, cig thru quarter, gamolo, and anything else that is exposed. Find a way to make it your own and you never have to worry about what others are doing.

We all had magic exposed to us at one point in our lives so that's how we learned. The difference is we are taking the time and energy to hopefully develop and give back to the art that gives so much to us.

Life is way too short. Now get off this subject and get to making that magic come from you not your props!!

Max
Message: Posted by: magicnewswire (Jan 22, 2009 07:05PM)
We can spend more time talking about a show that hasn't been on TV in weeks .. or we cold promote the one that is on and praise the change in programming.
Message: Posted by: danatasmagic (Jan 24, 2009 03:46AM)
[quote]On 2008-11-27 04:40, gaddy wrote:
There is such thing as a "critical mass" and "tipping points" where ideas get firmly embedded into the public's consciousness. It takes a long time to get it out of their heads by that time. I think it's gotten to that point with the general public now, unfortunately.[/quote]

I totally agree with the above statement. We get in a car, have the radio switched on, hear a song being played for the umpteenth time, we had no desire to sit & learn the lyrics, but a few days or weeks later were singing along to it!!!

It's the same with the Masked Prat, watch enough times, & the info (basic principles) will sink in!!!!

Magic should be a "Wholesome" Entertainment, ie MYSTERY - PRESENTATION etc etc Take away the mystery, & the entertainment is diminished....... FACT! No matter how well it is performed, no matter how good the presentation..............

Best Wishes

Mike Danata
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Jan 26, 2009 11:21AM)
What if magicians could refrain from speaking about him and, when people would refer to his show just play it down and answer "Who? Oh! Him! The guy is a looser, nobody does the tricks that way anymore... It's just a corny marketing packaging for oldies!"

Magicians have been the best advertisers on this @*&%§ person (person meaning no one). The public doesn't like anything more than a debate.

By doing five pages on the café speaking about him, we pave his way. Since we cannot prevent his screen self promotion, let's ignore this non existant guy.

This is the first and last time I post about this "thing"
Message: Posted by: amazing_gordo (Jun 15, 2009 04:14AM)
[quote]
On 2008-12-02 12:44, Big Daddy Cool wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-12-02 10:17, amazing_gordo wrote:
In my opinion, exposure sucks. Period!

And some say this clown is actually good for the art of magic?

How do you figure that, and what color is the sky on YOUR planet?

When I saw the Masked Magician reveal huge stage illusions, I didn't like it, and then I thought: "Well, Copperfield and Angel are rich, they'll be ok."

Then I saw the Masked Mentalcase reveal tricks you can buy at your local magic shop, and I was angry. I have frends who own small shops, and revealing stuff like the cig through quarter, folding coin, etc, is harmful to them making a living.

And THEN, I saw the Masked Moron reveal the cut & restored rope, walking through a pole, etc. etc. which are street magic tricks that I do myself! That affects me personally!

The thing about the MM, is that he is an equal opportunity terrorist. He screws with ALL of us! From the mega-rich Copperfield types, to the poor slob on the street! It's exposure, it's deliberate, it's harmful and it's wrong!

The MM is a thief, a con man and loser! He takes food out of peoples mouths, he destroys careers, he ruins the wonder of tricks and spoils the show for the audience, and he does it all to make a quick buck!

He steals the intellectual property of those who create magic effects, then exposes them on international tv so he can profit from it. He is nothing more than a common criminal!

Bottom Line: He harms innocent people to make money! Those who praise him can bloody well have him!
[/quote]

Have you read one word I wrote? I mean really?
[/quote]

As a matter of fact I did, but I wasn't exactly talking to you specifically, as you didn't create the thread. I was just giving MY own general opinion on M.M. I've heard the "Masked Magician is helping magic because he's making magicians come up with NEW effects!" shtick before. It's the same excuse Valentino gave for his behavior, and it's totally wrong. The reality? He sold out. He did it for the money.

Although if you're asking if I agree with you, then obviously YOU did not read one word that I wrote, sir.
Message: Posted by: Mike Webb (Jun 15, 2009 05:58AM)
Patents and copyrights are two differnt things.
Message: Posted by: amazing_gordo (Jun 19, 2009 04:42PM)
[quote]
On 2009-06-15 06:58, Mike Webb wrote:
Patents and copyrights are two differnt things.
[/quote]

Are they both not equally protected under the law?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Jun 19, 2009 05:13PM)
A number of years ago, an escapologist on a TV special exposed both the Houdini handcuff-dive method and the DeVal straitjacket.

Even immediately after the special, I would have no qualms about using either method, as the general public has a short memory and a general lack of interest. Add to that how few people actually watched the show, over all of the other fare available on cable...
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 3, 2009 12:45AM)
There are factors in this that most of you are not aware of. There are also factors that I believe you need to be reminded of. Let's go back to the first MM shows -- the ones that were done back in the 1990's. When they first aired, I was the first person to reveal who the Masked Magician was on the internet. I did this within 72 hours of his performance and I posted his photo to my web site. Since then, I moved those pages to http://www.nomagicexposure.com. Remember, back in those days, the identity of the MM was a big secret.

I was interviewed by Fox and other broadcasters, and at one point, I realized that by giving so much attention to the MM, I was actually promoting his show, not stopping it.

At the time that the first series ran, the World Alliance of Magicians, of which I was a charter member, was still in existence. They mailed out thousands of letters and petitions to sponsors, etc., and most of the high dollar sponsors did pull out. However, it was always controversial, and controversy sells advertising, if not to one company to another.

Once the MM began to lie dormant, I basically pulled out of the active anti-exposure game and decided to leave it to the rest of the magicians, although I did get involved in some controversy over the Ouatagamie County Museum fiasco. That's another story though.

Anyway, here's the situation:
1) The patent expired on the Gamolo Levitation 20 years after it was applied for. That's the law. Gale Molovinsky is a friend of mine, and he is a good lawyer, but if his field is not patent and trademarks, he may not be completely up on this aspect of the law. The original papers were filed in 1979, so the patent expired in 1999.

2) It is not illegal to expose magic, even if it's patented. It may be immoral. It may be unethical. It may even be against the rules of the IBM, the SAM, the Magic Circle and all the other magical societies. But it isn't against the law. If I were to stand on the street corner and expose Johnny Gaughan's "Flying," I could not be arrested for it, but I could be booted out of the magic clubs.

3) There may be damages -- and this might be what Gale is going for. If I were to expose "Flying," and DC or JG could prove that I had affected the sales of their tickets or their props, then they might be able to sue me for damages. But if I show the judge that the secret is exposed on the internet by the USPTO, then there isn't much of a case.

4) Look at the production credits for the MM shows. They are produced by a fellow named Nash. He is the same fellow who produced "The World's Greatest Magic Show" at the Greek Isles Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas. It's his show. His idea. His money. He still produces live shows. Nobody working in Vegas will say much against him. I don't work in Vegas. So I will.

So the exposure is coming from within, basically. But the real source isn't Val. It's Nash. Val is just his masked puppet.
Message: Posted by: kipling100 (Jul 7, 2009 01:30PM)
[quote]
On 2009-07-03 01:45, Bill Palmer wrote:

2) It is not illegal to expose magic, even if it's patented. It may be immoral. It may be unethical. It may even be against the rules of the IBM, the SAM, the Magic Circle and all the other magical societies. But it isn't against the law. If I were to stand on the street corner and expose Johnny Gaughan's "Flying," I could not be arrested for it, but I could be booted out of the magic clubs.

[/quote]

A patent gives the owner the right to exclude someone from making, USING, selling, and importing the patented invention for a period of time.

Thus, while it is not illegal to expose the secret of a patented illusion, you cannot expose it by actually practicing the claimed process or using the claimed apparatus. Because the MM actually performs the effect before and during the explanation, he would be in fact infringing a patented invention.

The implication of this is that if the MM is only legally able to expose expired patents, that means the show -- as it currently operates -- can only reveal patented illusions that are at least 20 years old.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Jul 8, 2009 04:48AM)
I don't see the Worlds Greatest illusions any more on the TV schedule, but the the Secrets exposed is still running weekly.

I guess the audience is more interested in how it's done opposed to enjoying the presentation side.
Message: Posted by: Terry Owens (Jul 9, 2009 03:31PM)
According to Gay Blackstone, they had much higher ratings than the masked one...a matter of fact the viewing audience dropped way off after Masters of Illusion concluded each week...according to an interview that was done with Gay. So there must be another reason...they do not have any more new programs for the Masters of Illusion, maybe they had more taped for the "other guy"
Message: Posted by: Xemm (Jul 18, 2009 01:54PM)
Guys..... I just bought a DVD with a full 12 episodes of Magic biggest Secret finally Revealed it is said season 1..I do not know how many seasons the show already aired. As a magician I do feel sad and angry as they said breaking magicians code..The show is aired weekly in my country, I lived in the souhteast Asia, and I believe the show is aired worldwide by now considering I lived in a third world country. Oouuw I pay only equally one dollar in US currency for the DVD...The art of Magic is closed with it's secret..by abusing the secrets is destroying the art as well...I think MM is a fool by making money using the art that way...I am wondering if his real face is uglier than the mask he is wearing...
Message: Posted by: KURT MOORE LARSON (Jul 21, 2009 02:59PM)
Magicians who intentionally break their own code of conduct, albeit self-imposed, to keep the secrets of magic "SECRET" can do all caring magicians a favor and find some other ways to make their living. In the words of one of my many mentors of my many years in magic............

Never tell the secret. "No matter how small and unimportant what we are doing may seem, if we do it well, it may soon become the step that will lead us to better things." Channing Pollock

......nuff said - I rest my case.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jul 22, 2009 11:45PM)
[quote]
On 2009-07-18 14:54, Xemm wrote:
Guys..... I just bought a DVD with a full 12 episodes of Magic biggest Secret finally Revealed it is said season 1..I do not know how many seasons the show already aired. As a magician I do feel sad and angry as they said breaking magicians code..The show is aired weekly in my country, I lived in the souhteast Asia, and I believe the show is aired worldwide by now considering I lived in a third world country. Oouuw I pay only equally one dollar in US currency for the DVD...The art of Magic is closed with it's secret..by abusing the secrets is destroying the art as well...I think MM is a fool by making money using the art that way...I am wondering if his real face is uglier than the mask he is wearing...
[/quote]

Well, you bought, and now own 12 episodes to feel sad and angry about everytime you watch it.
Message: Posted by: Chad Sanborn (Jul 25, 2009 04:52PM)
FACT:
The show makes money so it will continue to be on the air.

Here is the real truth behind tv. It's all based on ratings. Ratings=$$$
I am on a tv show now, (Drop Dead Diva on Lifetime Ntwrk). Its a brand
new show and is airing for the first time right now. This Sunday is only
our 3rd show. We are filming 13 episodes.

When the first show aired, everyone on set was abuzz wondering what the
ratings were. The producers came to the set the very next week and went
over the ratings with us. We had a bit over 3 million viewers for that
premier show. To them that was a HUGE success. And if the next 2 weeks
lived up to that or slightly lower ratings, then they would order another
22 episodes for the 2nd season.

When I heard this I was shocked! 3 million viewers?! I thought that was bad.
But when I questioned them on it, they said, remember, this is a cable tv
show and not a network tv show. 2 to 3 million viewers on a smaller network
is considered great. While on a network like CBS, that show would be considered
a failure and be canceled.

Now considering that this show airs on The CW, a very small network, we can probably figure that the audience is between 1.5 to 2 million viewers a week.
The population of the US right now is about 305 million. At this rate, if 2 million different viewers watched the show each week, it would take about 3 years for everyone in the US to see one show. But each week they don't pick up 2 million new viewers. They probably have the same viewers every week. We all have shows we watch religiously. This one is no different. I would venture to say, that a large portion of that are magicians.

If a quarter to one third of the viewership was magicians, and they simply quit watching, then the ratings wold tank enough to take the show off the air. But
magicians will not quit watching the show. Even magicians from this site and many
others across the net. They watch because of the same reasons as other people do,
they are curious. They want to see the secret. **(the next sentence might make some here mad)**
These magicians feel that they are entitled to see the secret as they are "magicians" as well and part of the same brotherhood. Its the same thinking that makes people trade torrent files of magic items illegally.

My point is, that this exposure business is exactly that. BUSINESS. We as magicians, need to find a way to make magic a more profitable business. But when we willingly and illegally trade our own stuff away, we have no hope to stop others from doing the same. Change must happen from within first.