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Topic: The Price of Mentalism
Message: Posted by: Yellowjacket (Feb 4, 2009 05:45PM)
The price of mentalism seems to continue to increase and I am not sure why. As I have purchased much in the years and even quite a bit of the items here in the form of E-books, I have noticed that mentalism for some reason is priced quite a bit higher than a comparable magic product.

Both essentially serve the same purpose (to entertain an audience) yet the price difference is quite surprising. I will concede that one may price their product as the market will bear but why is mentalism considered an elitist purchase?

Richard Osterlind puts out great DVDs and products that are modest in price for what you are getting, yet here in the café I have seen E-books go for three times the price of one of his DVDs. It makes me wonder why these E-books written by comparatively unknown persons are worth so much more? I have never seen these individuals perform, they have no Youtube videos for me to watch, no proof that they actually can perform these miracles they sell.

Now, I want to be honest. I have purchased a few E-books by authors on the Café that I have never heard of and some of them have been very good. I have also purchased some that have been exceedingly poor. In fact, so poor, it was easy to ascertain that the individual that wrote it does not perform for live audiences but merely thinks up ideas while sitting behind the computer screen.

Three of the authors I have found to be solid in their writing and felt were well worth the purchase were Mick Ayres, Paul Brook, and Jim Callahan (or whatever psychotic name he goes by) Although Callahan is irritating here in the café his work is very good.

However, I have read a many other manuscripts that were utterly ridiculous. Many of these manuscripts love to dabble in psychological principles that are although possible, they are not 100% reliable. I might have fun with them sitting with my friends at the pub, but I would never use them on stage where a show would depend on it. Yet to my amazement they tell me that they do them in their show all the time. Hmmm

Additionally, I have read some manuscripts that were quite lackluster and yet most if not all here in the café will tout them as, “well, if so-and-so put it out, it must be brilliant. I am surprised to see that no one seems to call a dud a dud. And if someone does…they will be chastised by the entire café community.

I am not unopposed to spending $50 for a E-book . . . but I don’t want to play Russian Roulette and have to purchase 20 of them to find a good one because no one here in the café wants to call it truthfully. I hate to tell you all, but many of you have formed your own clique where outside opinion that is against the group is attacked and silenced.

Actually I applaud Bill Cushman for offering his work on Rhyme Time at a very reasonable price. I do not have it yet, but at least if it was not to my liking, I don’t feel he robbed me. Many of the other E-books here , I shudder to think I will pay $40 or more for a mere 8 pages of dribble.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Feb 4, 2009 05:55PM)
I've posted on ebooks that I thought were terrible. I was in the minority but it isn't fair to say "no one seems to call a dud a dud. And if someone does…they will be chastised by the entire café community. "

People didn't agree with me, and as much as I get "chastised" by the community, it wasn't for that. I think people often would rather NOT post than post negative reviews. With that in mind, here is MY recommendation:

See which people seem to have the same tastes as you, based on things you have. Then see what they say about a product you don't have. If they don't say anything, stay away, if they say it's good, try it.

That's my approach since the two items I thought were worth less than the paper I printed them out on, and so far, seems to be pretty good, FOR ME.

Lem
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Feb 4, 2009 06:32PM)
YellowJacket, I agree with a lot of your post.

I'm not sure that I'd level the criticism specifically at ebooks. Personally, if ordering internationally I'd rather ge the ebook, it's not as nice to read, but it saves a lot of time. I even had the good fortune this week of purchasing a book from a UK supplier, assured the product was in stock, and it wasn't even dispatched for 6 days! Either way, each to their own.

There is a certain chastisement that happens if you post a negative review... unless the product is universally hated ("The Game" springs to mind.) There is a certain assumption that if one doesn't like a particular product or effect, it somehow casts doubts on their performance abilities or artistic adaptability. I've been a victim of this in the past, even when giving detailed reasons for my dislike of something.

I certainly respect people that will call a 'dud a dud' as you put it. There are many, many, many people here who ONLY post positive remarks. To me, this casts a shadow on the value of their positive reviews as well as leaving a black mark on their character. As if often said towards pacifists, the decision to do nothing is an immoral position. My refusing to resist evil, one gives license for evil to murder, surpress and torture. (Fill in the roles of terrible authors, wasted purchasers and buyers remorse as you see fit.)

I tell you one thing for sure... if I see person X criticise an ebook by author Y, I might be wary. But if I see X give praise to another ebook by author Y on another occasion I'm certainly going to give more trust to that reviewer.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Feb 4, 2009 06:52PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-04 19:32, Davit Sicseek wrote:
I'm not sure that I'd level the criticism specifically at ebooks.
[/quote]

Excellent point!

[quote]
On 2009-02-04 19:32, Davit Sicseek wrote:
There is a certain chastisement that happens if you post a negative review... unless the product is universally hated ("The Game" springs to mind.) There is a certain assumption that if one doesn't like a particular product or effect, it somehow casts doubts on their performance abilities or artistic adaptability. I've been a victim of this in the past, even when giving detailed reasons for my dislike of something.
[/quote]

My main issue with reviews, bad or good, is that most people review things without actually trying them in front of <gasp> people. That is the only time I take exception with a review, pro or con. You have a point though, I suppose I can remember times when the ability of a negative reviewer was questioned. Hmmm, I need to rethink my position here...
Message: Posted by: edh (Feb 4, 2009 07:13PM)
Lemniscate, if you notice it is always the same people who will give glowing reviews for their fellow authors. They will never, never say they didn't like a product.

And it does cast a black mark on those.

Yes there is a clique mentallity here. But it exists throughout the Café and other forums as well.

I have done a quick search on two of these "authors" that price their products high. These "professionals" don't even have a website!! hmmm...that should get the wheels turning.
Message: Posted by: Reuben Dunn (Feb 4, 2009 08:54PM)
We all want a "quick fix", that "one" prop, book, DVD, etc., that will "make" our act one of the "best".

Some can become like the sterotypical junkie, just needing one more fix to feel right.

Why spend $$ on ebooks?

I think, in some cases, not all, that the phrase, "There's one born every minute" comes to mind.
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Feb 4, 2009 09:13PM)
I heard that ebooks peddled on the Café have a lower purity that real books sourced elsewhere ;)
Message: Posted by: entity (Feb 4, 2009 09:53PM)
I don't think that the format of a book has anything to do with the quality of the information. I've purchased some absolutely dreadful hard copy books, and some wonderful ones. Ditto with e-books.

In the current economic climate, e-books make some sense, as production costs are minor, so the book can be sold at a more reasonable price than if the book were hard-bound.

Question: Let's say that someone has written a quality book on a subject that interests you. Given the choice, would you rather spend $35.00 for the information published in an e-book, or $75.00 for the same book, hard bound?

- entity
Message: Posted by: Paul (Feb 4, 2009 09:54PM)
I thought for a moment I was in an alternate universe Café. I've seen plenty of stuff get rubbished on the Café over the years.

If higher priced e-books you don't like have not got negative reviews, (if its not just you, lol) another possibility could be that many of them have not been sold?

The story of the emperor and his new clothes also comes to mind.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: sleightofhander (Feb 4, 2009 10:44PM)
Switchcraft really sets the bar high. Best bang for the buck.
Message: Posted by: Brandon Queen (Feb 5, 2009 01:44AM)
I'd rather spend $75. my computer crashes a lot
Message: Posted by: max88 (Feb 5, 2009 07:49AM)
Mentalism using brain so maybe it is the reason cost is high than normal magic which use hand skill mostly. Just like IT indrustry engineer be paid more than manufacture workers. Just kidding...
Message: Posted by: Garrad (Feb 5, 2009 10:29AM)
There's an awful lot of the emporers new clothes sham used by many here; you just have to go on your instincts and learn by experience.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 5, 2009 12:17PM)
I think the real problem here is that production and advertising costs used to be so high that is was expensive to get your material produced. Now, any bozo can write something, distribute it as an eBook, and advertise it for next to nothing on websites. No longer do you go through a publisher who edits it and knows enough about the subject to tell whether something is garbage or of value enough to make publishing it financially viable.

I know of one person who I'm not going to name because he has lots of fans. The advertisements for the booklets and products he sells are incredible. Everything is the most amazing, bizarre, and incredible übersecrets ever published. So, sucker that I am, I purchased numerous items from this person. Some are decent. Some are unusable garbage. One included a DVD of is performance of an effect he so proudly advertised, and he was just horrible (at least on that DVD). So, in spite of this person's fame and advertising, I'm very wary about buying anything from him. I do still love his ads!

Another person on another site sells a set of videos teaching stage hypnosis. His ads sound great. If you follow his videos, in order, everything makes sense. Then, the last video shows him doing shows. He's horrible!! He doesn't understand the basic concept that when doing a hypnosis stage show it is the people on the stage who should become the stars and you need to get out of their way.

The bottom line, unfortunately, remans caveat emptor--let the buyer beware. Perhaps if we loudly proclaimed "such and such a product is crap...and here's why" we could get rid of the people selling garbage. Of course, more than likely, we'd also get sued.

As long as we are based around secrecy, it seems like garbage will continue to sell.
Message: Posted by: mindshrink (Feb 6, 2009 12:07PM)
I agree...but till now the only sure shot way to avoid being 'duped' is relying on ur gut instincts.Or there are some reliable folks in the Café who would readily call a spade a spade.
There are groups and 'mutual admiration societies'...nothing wrong with that but it is the poor buyer who becomes a sucker.
Cant there be a centralised system of reviewing books/DVds on the Café..at least if the e-book is touted or is introduced in the Café or if the effect is 'marketed' in the Café.
Message: Posted by: ElliottB (Feb 6, 2009 03:50PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-04 23:44, sleightofhander wrote:
Switchcraft really sets the bar high. Best bang for the buck.
[/quote]

Thanks, sleightofhander.

I agree with the sentiment about mentalism getting a bit expensive. I used to buy anything and everything to do with mentalism, but, these days, I only buy the stuff that looks too interesting to pass up…and only if the price is reasonable (unless I need it for research.)

Elliott
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Feb 7, 2009 12:34PM)
I truelt agree with he originalposte I nave viewed some of the high priced docments mentioned on this board although I own none. It is laughable the ego and greed that drives these prices along with the good old boy network that sells it.I recently viewed one document selling for 300 bucks that may have had one original thought in the whole bookbut it was valued due to it being a performance piece'korans medallion can be found in a book for tenth of the price with many other performance pieces, jay folks looking for the grail I guess.

Posted: Feb 7, 2009 1:38pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for the typos day fingering on the pda
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Feb 7, 2009 12:39PM)
Sorry for the typos day fingering on the pda
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Feb 7, 2009 12:57PM)
This old song and dance again?

How can I put this clearly? If you don't like the price of something and cannot afford it, move on. Nobody is forcing you to consume, hoard secrets and purchase mentalism and/or mentalism related material. !@#$%ing and moaning about it does nothing.

Why don't you guys go work on your act and do something productive for once? Do you really believe threads such as this one are going to make creators change their mind on how they price and release THEIR OWN WORK??? If you don't like it, simply pass it by.

Price is a relative thing. What may seem 'expensive' for some is a drop in the bucket for others.

-Jerome
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Feb 7, 2009 01:41PM)
Also, seems besides gangs of fans, gangs of new users with posts involving axes to grind and a strange command of MC history also appear!!!

Dance!!! Dance!!!
Message: Posted by: Yellowjacket (Feb 7, 2009 01:57PM)
Dr. Spektor

I have no axe to grind and I am not even sure I understand your post . . . but

Let me be clear, I don’t have a problem with a creator charging the price they want . . the market will tell the person what it will bear. I had two concepts to deliver in this thread:

One: why is mentalism considered a higher priced product than magic. Also why do some people charge higher prices than the norm . . .using Osterlind as a base line of quality material. Why do they feel their material is so much better? What makes their product superior (at least in price than say, Banachek) This is more of a psychological question. I am not attacking anyone with these ponderings, just curious.

Two: I tire of the café mentality of touting everyone who puts out an e-book as the most creative person in mentalism. You must buy their stuff. I know of one individual here who almost always ends fellow café member’s works as “must have in your collection” or “this is only for the real workers”.

It seems that very few people are willing to call a dud a dud. Or at the very least, simply not pump bad e-books. This is bad for people who are genuinely trying to learn and bad for the art in general.
Message: Posted by: edh (Feb 7, 2009 02:37PM)
Since Jerome has replyed here, I would like to see some of his performances. Is there a website with your bio or performance videos. I would like information like this before I purchase some e-book at a ridiculous price. Also why the NDA attached to the e-book? If someone were to purchase the book no one can review it according to the NDA. WHY? Is it that bad? Is it that good? If it is truly worthwile purchasing, the product would stand on its own.

The one review that was allowed was by a friend of his. Is this truly an unbiased review? How about getting both sides of the picture to make an informed decision. Isn't this about "Magicians helping Magicians". Oh wait...this is the mentalists section of the Café. I guess that motto doesn't apply here.

Just be aware of who comes out of the wood work to praise these type of products when they come out and you will see a pattern.
Message: Posted by: OTTOEMEZZO (Feb 7, 2009 03:09PM)
I personally believe that yes a lot of e-books are a waste of money. Even the most popular ones. However, I cannot say that of Jerome's work. Is it high in price? Yes. Is it worth it? I haven't read anything of his that did not provide me with at least a new way of approaching my effects. The man is brilliant.
-Vlad
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Feb 7, 2009 03:18PM)
Jerome you seem to be the one raising the loudest volume, could it be because your material is that that sells for 300-1000 bucks. Is it not possible to post here & be working on your act also, I know no one who works 24x7.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Feb 7, 2009 03:23PM)
Jerome's stuff is excellent...I am NOT saying that because we are friendly...I am saying that because it is true...I don't have ALL of his items because I need to get some money together...but if he ever puts out garbage at a high price, I will be sure to call him on it...

Jerome has a standard...this comes with high prices...high price, high value...

BMW's cost more than my Escort, but I don't yell towards Germany every day...

Nathan
Message: Posted by: Yellowjacket (Feb 7, 2009 03:39PM)
Good point Nathan,

And . . . I don't want this to be a bash Jerome thread. True his products are expensive. But people do seem willing to pay for them. The more apt question is why are his products worth more than Banachek' or Osterlind's to those that purchase them? I have not heard a single word of discontent about his products... but the post about a purchaser not being allowed to review them . . . was interesting.

This is a discussion about quality versus price and unfair pumping of products by fellow Café members. Let's not bash someone because they charge a lot. I have payed quite a hefty price for some exclusivity on certain effects. I would only be upset if they charged a great deal, unfairly pumped it with friends, and it was total crap.

And to be fair sometimes I don't like an effect and that does not mean it is crap for everyone. It takes some maturity to see the difference between, not right for me and not right for everyone.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Feb 7, 2009 04:28PM)
How about this...Why do Osterlind & Banachek charge so little for their products?

Nathan
Message: Posted by: John C (Feb 7, 2009 04:52PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-07 16:18, tboehnlein wrote:
Jerome you seem to be the one raising the loudest volume, could it be because your material is that that sells for 300-1000 bucks. Is it not possible to post here & be working on your act also, I know no one who works 24x7.
[/quote]

Ha on you tboehn.
Message: Posted by: Jim-Callahan (Feb 7, 2009 05:28PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-07 17:28, Nathan Pain wrote:
How about this...Why do Osterlind & Banachek charge so little for their products?

Nathan
[/quote]

I would love to know why they do.

Also glad to have found my own way before things became as they are.

J im

H.o.A-X

(The Dead Boys told me their tales and pushed me to create myself).
Message: Posted by: Yellowjacket (Feb 7, 2009 05:56PM)
Nathan,

Once again Touche....

Great point!
Message: Posted by: Banachek (Feb 7, 2009 07:07PM)
Because I am not a very good business person :) In jest of course but a touch of truth in that.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Feb 7, 2009 07:31PM)
But you are a good guy...

Nathan
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Feb 7, 2009 10:51PM)
"Ha on you tboehn."

huh

Posted: Feb 8, 2009 12:02am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being a good business person has nothing to do with charging the highest fee, aloan shark charges the highest rates but I do not think anyone would call them a good business person.
Message: Posted by: lostpoet (Feb 8, 2009 02:11AM)
:lol:

Have you dealt with many? What makes you think they wouldn’t be considered a good businessperson?

I’ve found their rates are not any higher than most banks. They don’t ask for bail out money either. In fact they will bail you out (even come pick you up).

I see you are in Ohio. I know a few up there who would be quite offended by your assumptions.


The borrower…
:kewl:
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Feb 8, 2009 02:13PM)
OK,let me simplify this for you just because someone can overcharge for something & get it does not make them a good business person. I would doubt they are so sensitive as to be offended by my statement though.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Feb 8, 2009 02:21PM)
I look at it as; we are not discussing needs or necessary items. We are discussing wants, luxury items. People can price them as they see fit.

As a consumer, if the strength of the want meets or exceeds the cost, then it is a consideration. Otherwise it’s off for a coffee and a donut, and the checkbook stays where it belongs.

Tony
Message: Posted by: baggins321 (Feb 8, 2009 03:38PM)
In my opinion its supply and demand. Mentalism is the new craze in the world of magic. It was street magic with david blaine, now it is mentalism with derren brown. Just look at the two forums. Street magic has roughly 20,000 posts while mentalism has roughly 200,000 posts. Demand is higher for mentalism so the price is higher.
Message: Posted by: lostpoet (Feb 8, 2009 03:47PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-08 15:13, tboehnlein wrote:
OK,let me simplify this for you just because someone can overcharge for something & get it does not make them a good business person. I would doubt they are so sensitive as to be offended by my statement though.
[/quote]



Are you that dumb? You need to “simplify” what you read first. You failed to recognize the humor twice.

“Simple” quote ‘just because someone can overcharge for something & get it does not make them a good businessperson.” Do you really think no one else sees this? This is so obvious it’s not worth typing. You have no discovery here. This is common sense and your comparison to loan sharks was so ridiculous I gave you a ridiculous reply.

“Simple” enough for you?
Message: Posted by: Waters (Feb 8, 2009 05:04PM)
I am not sure why all the fuss about this. There have always been products that one feels satisfied after purchasing, and then purchases that they didn't feel as glad about. There can be no fair and advance warning, because we all are different in our tastes, needs, goals and resources. The argument is circular.

I am not sure what the concern is...

1. Is it quality of material itself?
2. How well is that material communicated?
3. Production values (design, layout, etc.)?
4. The price?

It is interesting that there are fingers being pointed at ebook producers. There have been high-priced effects, books and other materials for as long as the craft has been. Some of those were perceived as worth the cost (to that particular person), others did not feel so. This has always been (and always will be). One does not compare the price of a car purchased in 1990 with a car purchased today. For goodness sakes, what did Annemann charge his subscribers to "The Jinx". Obviously the cost would be laughable in todays terms.

How much is an idea worth? How much a fully developed routine? What would either of these be worth to you?

Any (mental) venture should probably has these goals:

1. Artistic validation for one's ideas
2. To "further the art" (even if this means providing "worthy" options)
3. To make a profit

While I make no assumptions about people's perception of whether my material accomplishes these things, they are my goals nonetheless. I also use the proceeds from my own works to reinvest back into the works of others (probably 80-90% anyway). This just helps me develop more ideas, some of these will be shared.

In any venture people will sell items that are priced in accordance with "what the market will bear". This is an elusive notion, though. I charged $30 for "Ponderings"(which was 52 pages) and $37 for "Contemplations" an ebook twice as long (however, one person mentioned that cost to material ratio).

I have been performing (as an amateur/bi-vocationally: a detail I have never concealed) for about 12 years. The ideas I use are the culmination of study and performance for the same amount of time. Whether these ideas are worth it, are based upon the needs of, and use of, the material contained. This is impossible to measure.

All one can do is to to offer the best quality work they can, with fair production values in a format that consistent with their objectives, goals and faculty to execute. While I prefer a hardcopy book, I just did not have the time to constantly make runs to the post-office and deal with the complications involved with printing and delivering materials. However, since I am so little known, it would not have been feasible to find a publisher at that time. I just do my best and try to treat people with respect and fairness. All I can hope is feel their investment was worthy of admission. That is my hope.


Sean
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Feb 8, 2009 06:18PM)
" Simple” enough for you?' For me yes, but appearently not simple enough for you since you do not understand the analogy.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Feb 8, 2009 06:44PM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-07 16:29, Sam Jellyroll wrote:
........and they are pretty good mind readers too!
[/quote]

Are you talking about their expertise with head entertainment?

Posted: Feb 8, 2009 7:45pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2009-02-08 00:02, tboehnlein wrote:
Being a good business person has nothing to do with charging the highest fee, aloan shark charges the highest rates but I do not think anyone would call them a good business person.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Depends how you define good. I think they likely make a lot of $ and don't have to declare it on income tax forms.
Message: Posted by: lostpoet (Feb 8, 2009 07:27PM)
Tboehnlein,

It is so complicated. Please forgive me for not understanding.

I give up.

:rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Feb 13, 2009 03:39AM)
On the question of price... I think that generally things aren't over priced. I need to temper that statement with the view that some good stuff is over priced, and some stuff is simply not worth the money, either because it's garbage and cheap, uber-expensive and mediocre and my personal favorite - uber-expensive and a load of old guff.

For a fairly modest investment of around $100, it's possible to pick up a couple of good books and a couple of basic tools. Another few books, a bit of imagination, making use of free resources, a mediocum of intellect and imagination and one *could* be good enough to perform, doing paid gigs. Then you can choose to invest in the latest hyped products, or go out for a curry and some garlic nan bread.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 13, 2009 04:12AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-07 16:23, Nathan Pain wrote:
Jerome's stuff is excellent....

...but if he ever puts out garbage at a high price, I will be sure to call him on it...
[/quote]

Not if you signed an NDA prohibiting you from commenting on it! :)

Personally, I think the only people complaining about the high prices are those that are sucked into the hype and 'want' the item but don't want to pay the high price. There is SO much material available and such reasonable prices that no performer really needs to pay the outrageous prices for some of the stuff that is available. It really isn't the holy grail that it purports to be.

If I go to Best Buy and see 2 DVD players. One is $50 and another is $1000 because of it 128 bit technology and 8 way multi-phase bit scanning super duper features, I buy the $50 dollar unit and I don't get mad about the $1000 dollar unit. I've learned that when I watch a dvd on the $50 unit it is undecernable from the $1000 unit. (I admit, I didn't always realize this.)

..... Unless it's a Blu-Ray player! :)
Message: Posted by: Athos (Feb 13, 2009 06:09AM)
I'm a bit ambigous to take any opinion, though I second everything that Sean Waters said,

And consider this, having it edited by a professional, the time it took to produce the cover, I actually loose money publishing material! As well if you count how much time a book can take to write, edit, do proper credit research, that's a few pennies an hour. I dream of having something printed black on white (not the usual ****ty Stamples five cents a page comb bounding), though as far as the expenses go, I'd like to eat for a few months still...

Actually, having feedback from costumers is far greater than any financial gain one could have selling e-books.
Max.
Message: Posted by: lejon (Feb 13, 2009 06:53AM)
If you cant afford, don't buy it.

there is a good chance you can find the same info in an inepensive old book packed with routines.

Suffolk said in a thread: buy the classics before you buy anything released in the last 5 years. very wise. thanks BTW.

Mentalism, as anything else, is a market. and a good one. Loads of money. people can sell only cos others buy.....

the best waay to fight the increase in price, and I would say the only one, ..... don't buy.......... do not get taken in the "hype".

expereince on the Café is primordial. check who sells and who reviews, and who praises. always the same..... be weary and become a cautious purchaser.


if its OVERHYPED, then most probably you don't need it. Real gems are very rarely overhyped. cos people don't want it to be. if its overhyped then its not a gem "its a money maker".

the first books I baught in magic, were Christian Chelman.
packed with routines, excellent routines, full of magick, the book themselves are pieces of art, the guy has worked on the books, and you can see that. they are simply beautiful books. if anyone owes one, then he knows what I'm talking about.

that is value for money..... that is "gems".

what is to stop price increase in an unregulated market??....... buyers. Its that simple

Lejon
Message: Posted by: edh (Feb 13, 2009 06:16PM)
Lejon nailed it.

Another thing...Do research on the author.
Where has he performed.
What is his bio.

BTW Nathan, you stated "Jeromes stuff is excellent...". Have you purchased his 1k tome? If you have aren't you violating his NDA by talking about it? Or is it ok to say only good things about the product?
Message: Posted by: lejon (Feb 14, 2009 12:07PM)
Reputation is quickly made on the Café.....

one way or another.....

just need a few friends...
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Feb 14, 2009 12:14PM)
So if I am understanding you correctly someone could come on here make a few friends release complete crap and everyone would buy it? Nobody would say one bad thing?
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Feb 14, 2009 12:17PM)
Yeah, I have the 1000$ tome...it is a bunch of instructions on how to make the most amazing balloon animals...Jerome won't sue me for saying that because I made him sign an NDA about my right to purchase...

Now I am just being silly...I think Chi has captured my thoughts quite well...I will go with that instead...

And I STILL stand by my words that J's stuff is excellent!

I want a 300C but I don't go around getting my skirt all in a twist...

Actually, I have in the past had an issue with pricing...then I closed my mouth & opened my eyes.

Nathan
Message: Posted by: lejon (Feb 14, 2009 12:19PM)
No :)

you don't understnd me correctly.

this time I was talking about reputation.

but yes I have seen ( and unfortunatley made non refndable purchases of) total crap that had been praised heavily by " afficionados".

which is why I refer back to my post where I say: " experience on the Café is primordial". now I know ( for myself) whose reviews I trust and whose reviews I don't.

to each his own.

what ia slo say is that if idont like something I should be able to say so on a public forum and not be ostracised by the previously named " afficionados"

Posted: Feb 14, 2009 1:28pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you compare:


MMM ( TA waters), real book, 65$
and
Any newbie has 1 idea and releases one effect ( which is merely a slight modification) in an ebook for 35$.

Penguin magic/ellusionist generation I guess.

Magic and mentalism are juicy markets.
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Feb 14, 2009 01:14PM)
Well if I get more out of the one effect for $35 then it is a better deal. I like quality not quantity. If I pay $35 and get nothing than it was a bad purchase. If I spend $1 and get nothing it was a bad purchase. If I spend $10,000 and get something out of it then it is a good purchase. Not to hard to follow I don't think.
Message: Posted by: lejon (Feb 14, 2009 01:21PM)
No its not.

it makes sense.

The problem is you'll only knwo once you ve done the purchase, not before. Which is inherent to our market. so I refer back to my initial post: experience on the Café is primordial. know who you trust and who you don't...

Thas all I'm saying really....

and by definition newcomers to the Café cannot have that experience....


Did you get nothig out of MMM???

also I think that point of view will be dramatically different between someone who seeks education and someone who seeks to improve existing act
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Feb 14, 2009 02:52PM)
I agree. I have certain people on the Café that I know and trust. I also know that the things they like I like. So generally if one of those people like it then I am fairly sure I will like it. Its not always the case, but enough that I am happy with it.

Reviews in general are a tuff thing here. I have purchased things and love it then I go read the reviews and everyone else hates it. And it goes the other way as well. I think when you start buying magic and mentalism you first have to understand that you will put your money into things that are of no value to you. I think after awhile you start re looking at things and often times I find value where other people look right past it.

Just my thoughts.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Feb 14, 2009 02:56PM)
Usefulness is in the mind of the beholder...
Message: Posted by: chichi711 (Feb 14, 2009 03:52PM)
Yes it is
Message: Posted by: Stefmagic (Jun 15, 2009 09:17PM)
What about the huge number of very pricey limited book (a lot from Jerome Finley) that hits the "Let's make a magic deal!" section! What do you think about selling those limited edition ?
Message: Posted by: Jim-Callahan (Jun 15, 2009 09:23PM)
What does he think about it?

J ack

H.o.A-X
Message: Posted by: MDantes (Jun 16, 2009 02:34AM)
Right Jim?

I am not going to say a whole lot, but Stefmagic asked for thoughts on the subject.

I think there are too many convenient things to consider...

The limited edition material at a comfortable and friendly price, worth it to the person that puts the time in it to learn and adapt, are bound with a spiral binding ( to make reading convenient).

First, the limited edition of material. That means when they are sold out, people want them more. People want what they can not have.

Then since they are bound with a spiral I am not going to put it past the resellers that they did not make and have a copy, you can not tell me they didn't, of course, I am not expecting anyone to admit that.

Then they resell this OOP item at a slightly lower/higher/original price to either make a profit or have the item for free.

However, in this perfect world of honest people, maybe people are in a bind and are needing to get rid of some material.

In that case they should contact Jerome. Not speaking for him by any means, but he is a great person to work with. Very understanding.

I am not really sure why Jerome's name is being thrown up a lot here.

Frankly, if you do not have the material, there is no reason why you should be evaluating its worth...

Personally I do not blame him for getting out of the mentalism "community".

KnoWhutImean, Vern?
Message: Posted by: jameme (Jun 16, 2009 02:30PM)
I think the authors should charge whatever they want
it is their work, it is their baby.

But all the buyers, cant help to notice how Max Maven, Banachek and Osterlind are worlwide known performers and their ebooks are sold for a lot less than what Jerome Finley (known only in the trade) ask for an ebook.
Hell!.. you can buy all of the 3 wisemen main material (even some gimmicks) for what Jerome asks for a routine of him.

But like I said, He is the author, it is his baby, and he gets to charge whatever he wants for it, if you don't like it just pass on, I don't see the reason of !@#$%ing about it.

Also... we should remember by getting the price higher, you also get to be the only mentalist performing that routine in your area, or city or country....
¨you will never see a girl wearing the same dress on a party¨... :)