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Topic: Lapping
Message: Posted by: cjl467 (Feb 5, 2009 01:41AM)
Wow. Lapping must be old. But I need something to date it. I've heard of course that Slydini helped spread lapping in the magic community, but can anyone dig up an earlier source? I really need an actual source.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 9, 2009 03:49PM)
The earliest published reference I have on lapping as a technique was Slydini's "The Art of Using the Lap as a Servante," which was originally published as a single release in the Stars of Magic Series in 1954.

Obviously, people who have performed seated have used the lap for prop disposition for much longer than that, but Slydini basically refined it. He was the one who figured out how to get things into the lap without arousing suspicion, and how to get them out of the lap without anyone noticing it.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Feb 12, 2009 05:24PM)
Have a look at the penetration trick in Scot's Discoverie of Witchcraft using a bowl.
Message: Posted by: Fred Johnson (Feb 12, 2009 08:49PM)
Traditional tricks like the napkin covered salt shaker thru table and others pre-date Slydini in terms of ditching stuff in your lap, but the techniques Slydini employed - like those from Stars of Magic - made Slydini's reputation and brought into play an era of new methods and tricks including modern classics like Coins Thru Table.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Feb 12, 2009 09:14PM)
Discoverie dates from the 1500's - way before Slydini and Vernon.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Smith (Feb 14, 2009 02:52AM)
I'll have to look that up. Do you do any material from Discoverie?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 17, 2009 02:23PM)
Ah, yes, the famous "groat and bason" trick.

I don't think what we see in Scot or Hocus Pocus, Jr. has anything near the refinement or quality of the work Slydini did with lapping as a real technique.
[quote]
On 2009-02-14 03:52, Jonathan Smith wrote:
I'll have to look that up. Do you do any material from Discoverie?
[/quote]
If you do a cut and restored rope, or a version of Grandmother's necklace, you are, essentially, performing material from Discoverie.
Message: Posted by: Spellbinder (Nov 11, 2009 07:14PM)
I think a more interesting question, and one which possibly has no answer, is when "stand up magicians" became "sit down magicians" so that lapping became possible as a technique. Did Slydini popularize "sit down magic" first, or simply take advantage of a new style that was making the rounds of smaller venues like night clubs and bar rooms?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 14, 2009 01:19AM)
Magicians who worked at dinner tables often sat. That's why some of the material in Scot as well as Hocus Pocus Junior refers to working at a table in a pub.

Magicians began to work standing up when they were able to adapt the workman's apron and/or the poacher's pouch to use as a magical tool.
Message: Posted by: Rennie (Nov 14, 2009 11:52AM)
As I recall, and I may be wrong, Slydini used a move called the "Imp Pass" to retrieve the lapped items.
Bill, is this correct ??
Rennie
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 16, 2010 09:24PM)
Yes. That's correct.

I've seen a lot of people who telegraphed their lapping ... from the moment they sat down at the table. They would do the thumb-little finger gauge to position their chair. That fairly well tips off what is going to happen.

Close-up at a table is really not a practical way to perform any more. If you are a restaurant magician, every time you sit down at a table, you are taking up a paying space. If you are performing at the dinner table, the chances are that you are probably not a worker, but a guest.

Slydini's table magic, beatiful as it was, always seemed contrived to me. You have a man sitting at the front of the room, with a table that is draped to the floor.

This is not intended to be a criticism of Slydini, but simply a reflection on the artificiality of that type of performing.
Message: Posted by: SonnySam (Feb 18, 2010 07:28PM)
I think if you ask Martin Lewis he will tell you of a magician he worked with at Eartquake McGoon's in San Framcisco who produced a dove at the close-up table every show and then vanished it the same way.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 14, 2011 07:36PM)
I think if you performed a dove production in a restaurant in Texas, the restaurant could be busted for health violations. Doves are far more likely to carry a disease than, say, a dog or a cat.

The magician you are referring to was probably Johnny Ace Palmer.
Message: Posted by: joe yang (May 28, 2011 02:36PM)
Those of us who don't have the historical perspective of Bill or Jonathan don't understand a lot of pre-Houdin sleight of hand isn't documented. We can reconstruct it from performance documentation. It seems likely that a "poisonous feast" taken at a table in a pub might have involved some lapping.

My own exploration of Indian and Asian street theater is evolving into some seated, cross legged and kneeling performances which present some interesting opportunities for lapping. For that matter, sleeving into a kimono is a hoot.

Not having Bill or Jonathan's expertise, my work is not authentic. It is interpretive, presenting traditional routines, but taking full advantage of modern methods. The traditional, Asian stuff people have shown me over the years doesn't hold up to modern magic. There isn't much reason to assume older Western illusions where much stronger. Lapping has probably been around forever in some form. Card cheats and quacks couldn't really be expected to publish their methods.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 4, 2011 05:48PM)
The work of the Indian street performers, especially concerning working with the bag, the pants, and even the assistant's costume (if there is an assistant) is really analagous to lapping.
Message: Posted by: MuscleMagic (Aug 24, 2014 09:29AM)
Lapping is def underused
Message: Posted by: Atom3339 (Aug 24, 2014 09:56AM)
Def.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 24, 2014 08:27PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2014, MuscleMagic wrote:
Lapping is def underused [/quote]

Have a careful look at Roth's coin book.
Message: Posted by: jimgerrish (Aug 25, 2014 09:28AM)
I use it all the time, even when standing up. Just because you're not sitting down and therefore have no lap available doesn't mean you can't employ the same table moves to shoost an object into a different, more available location. "Shoost" is a very old technical term I just made up for lapping without a lap.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Dec 15, 2015 05:26AM)
HeeHee: When SLYCINI'S lapping technique was "coming into vogue", the story is that OKITO (posing a rhetorical question) asked, "But, when you stand up, where does your lap go?"
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Dec 15, 2015 05:57AM)
[quote]On Feb 17, 2009, Bill Palmer wrote:
Ah, yes, the famous "groat and bason" trick.

I don't think what we see in Scot or Hocus Pocus, Jr. has anything near the refinement or quality of the work Slydini did with lapping as a real technique.
[quote]
On 2009-02-14 03:52, Jonathan Smith wrote:
I'll have to look that up. Do you do any material from Discoverie?
[/quote]
If you do a cut and restored rope, or a version of Grandmother's necklace, you are, essentially, performing material from Discoverie. [/quote]

On July 4, 1941, I was 8 years old, just starting in magic, and a sideshow magician in the Bud E. Anderson Circus Side Show "tipped the gaff" to me, on the "vanishing square knot that had been used to tie two bandannas together". (In Scot's Discoverie...", I, much later, learned, IIRC, it was called, "to untie a knot with words".) The "infinitive" (to) was almost standard in books like Hoffman's (Angelo Lewis) "Modern Magic", to "title" a trick.

Slydini used the method, and developed a technique for "DOING THE WORK", and, also, PRESENTING a routine that made the PERFORMANCE entertaining to a modern audience. He did it so well, that the trick is now called by the younger generation of magicians, "The Slydini KNOTS".

At 8, I didn't have the manual ability to actually DO the trick. I knew how it was DONE, but, it was a few years before I could DO it! THEN, it was a few more years of of practice, and and thought to figure out how to DO it, SO THAT IT ENTERTAINED AN AUDIENCE!

I've used it in almost every show, since!
Message: Posted by: augustoamen (Apr 9, 2018 02:33AM)
Hi everyone, I'm preparing a close-up routine, I'm gonna be doing it standing up and I have to lap some cards, I would really use some help from you for any advice of what to use for this kind of lapping. Thanks to everyone. Best regards. Augusto
Message: Posted by: bluejay17! (Sep 2, 2020 05:32PM)
[quote]On May 28, 2011, joe yang wrote:
Those of us who don't have the historical perspective of Bill or Jonathan don't understand a lot of pre-Houdin sleight of hand isn't documented. We can reconstruct it from performance documentation. It seems likely that a "poisonous feast" taken at a table in a pub might have involved some lapping.

My own exploration of Indian and Asian street theater is evolving into some seated, cross legged and kneeling performances which present some interesting opportunities for lapping. For that matter, sleeving into a kimono is a hoot.

Not having Bill or Jonathan's expertise, my work is not authentic. It is interpretive, presenting traditional routines, but taking full advantage of modern methods. The traditional, Asian stuff people have shown me over the years doesn't hold up to modern magic. There isn't much reason to assume older Western illusions where much stronger. Lapping has probably been around forever in some form. Card cheats and quacks couldn't really be expected to publish their methods. [/quote]

Eric Jones has some good work on this idea.
Message: Posted by: Gerald Deutsch (Jan 4, 2021 11:15AM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2014, MuscleMagic wrote:
Lapping is def underused [/quote]

Many of us do magic informally while at dinner and lapping is perfect at such times.
Message: Posted by: bluejay17! (Mar 17, 2021 11:54AM)
[quote]On Jan 4, 2021, Gerald Deutsch wrote:
[quote]On Aug 24, 2014, MuscleMagic wrote:
Lapping is def underused [/quote]

Many of us do magic informally while at dinner and lapping is perfect at such times. [/quote]

Absolutely. Lapping is one of the most versatile techniques for informal magic, as it can be applied to virtually any small object, at a moment's notice.

I recently published a book on lapping with coins that takes this one step further, and allows you to lap coins without bringing your hands back to the table's edge.