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Topic: To those who think Derren Brown uses no no Covert Hypnosis or NLP, Watch This!!!
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 16, 2009 10:59PM)
Yes, I know he gives it as a "fake explanation too", but I [b]do strongly[/b] think he uses it in many routines. This one is funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkA1k4QAXUI
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 17, 2009 02:10PM)
Ed you're a lovely guy, but I think everyone and their dog now know that:
1) Yes, his production/management company: Obective, do use hypnosis (not necessarily covert)
and
2) NLP doesn't exist. Well, not really.

bobser
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 17, 2009 11:27PM)
Well I only said that because LOTS of Magicians say he just uses classic mentalism and B.S.'s about NLP & Hypnosis. HE DOES USE both though. That's why I wrote that. As far as NLP, I have to disagree. It exists just as Cognitive Behabioral Therapt (CBT) exists. I do a anchoring routine that proves that. I have someone close their eyes, I tell them to picture the most pleasurable experience ever and as I count to 10 it gets stronger and to really see what happens. I ask if that emotion is at full peak (then I'll touch them on a certain spot), they say yes I say 10, open your eyes. I'll talk about something totally non related for like 2 minutes, I'll touch that spot, and you'll see them physically react with pleasure. I'll ask, did you feel a surge of pleasure just now, they say freakily yes. I'll touch that spot like 5 times in a row, and their like whoa. Then I explain excatly how it was done (it's not magic or anything), and they're impressed. So I've seen and done NLP. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Feb 18, 2009 06:41AM)
The thing about being on here here Ed is that you can make things not exist if you want...

Bobser doesn't really exist....not really..
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 18, 2009 08:24AM)
Hi Ed,

could you name half a dozen DB routines that you think use hypnosis/NLP as the means to achieve the effect?

The link you posted does not work for me - what routine is it?

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Harry Lucas (Feb 18, 2009 08:36AM)
Ant, it's the routine where a student gets in the state of being drunk without drinking any alcohol.

Harry
Message: Posted by: swiss_magician (Feb 18, 2009 11:27AM)
Hi Anthony,

your question was for Ed, but I may be interested to have your feedback on my little list here:

well, let's try to find half a dozen (at least) of them:
- Train of thought? = forget metro station
- The alcool free drunk state?
- The vodoo doll with the new age blonde girl?
- The famous 'russian scam'?
- The routine with the 3 med-students (tooth ache and needle in the hand)?
- The darkest fears (woman in the dark, imagining a brick wall protecting her from her fears)?
- The 'spooky-train' guy (sorry, can't come up with a name in english right now)?
- The uplifting hand in the shopping mall?
- The spoon bending without having the spoons bent? (couple of girls hallucinating the bending)

The question marks are intended because I am of course not totally sure, but these are some of the performances that seem to genuinely rely on suggestions and hypnosis to work imho.

Cheers

M.
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 18, 2009 05:06PM)
Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 18, 2009 05:14PM)
I did a dry run for a radio show yesterday on NLP. I used a young 21 year old ('addicted' to blow since 12 yrs old)and at the end of the stint everyone was totally amazed at just how strong NLP can be. So strong it 'appeared' that I was completely reading his mind and forcing him to say certain things in a certain way, but of course it became obvious to the people there, through my apparent honesty, that I wasn't really reading his mind, but rather I was a complete expert in the field of NLP.
What they didn't know was I'd met the lad earlier and used hypnosis with amnesia as suggested to me by Anthony Jacquin. Thanks Ant, you're a star. It simply worked exactly as you said it would.

Bob
Message: Posted by: Athos (Feb 18, 2009 09:54PM)
Hypnosis can be used in any form of Pre-show, as well.

:)

Max.
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 18, 2009 11:06PM)
True Max, that's different from what I was speaking about as far as Stooges. Most groups go backstage go in and out of Hypnosis a few times before bringing them on stage either as a Talk show...etc. That's fine. I was talking a Magician before filming saying to someone now you do this when that happens. If I read your mind agree with me...etc B.S. , Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 19, 2009 01:42AM)
Good list. Interestingly nearly all of the examples were in Derrens first series in the UK. Spoons? Think again :)

Anthony



[quote]
On 2009-02-18 12:27, swiss_magician wrote:
Hi Anthony,

your question was for Ed, but I may be interested to have your feedback on my little list here:

well, let's try to find half a dozen (at least) of them:
- Train of thought? = forget metro station
- The alcool free drunk state?
- The vodoo doll with the new age blonde girl?
- The famous 'russian scam'?
- The routine with the 3 med-students (tooth ache and needle in the hand)?
- The darkest fears (woman in the dark, imagining a brick wall protecting her from her fears)?
- The 'spooky-train' guy (sorry, can't come up with a name in english right now)?
- The uplifting hand in the shopping mall?
- The spoon bending without having the spoons bent? (couple of girls hallucinating the bending)

The question marks are intended because I am of course not totally sure, but these are some of the performances that seem to genuinely rely on suggestions and hypnosis to work imho.

Cheers

M.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 19, 2009 01:46AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-18 18:06, Eddini_81976 wrote:
Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol
[/quote]

I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned - especially paying with paper, BMX and Heist.

All the best

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 19, 2009 03:29AM)
I have and have, and have and CAN NOT get my head wrapped around this stuff. To me it's either set-ups, or he's using Hypnosis, Convert Hypnosis, NLP, and other "Classical Mentalism means. I'm not saying at all he doesn't swindle us with a clssic mentalism feeat such as Smoke where the person's card winds up in his mouth. Look at the 3 of Diamonds trick, CLASSIC NLP. Maybe we should each define what NLP is, because to me it's hard to explain. A verbal Suggestion is Hypnosis (talking 3 of Diamonds Again Trick)BUT when it's Non-Verbal it becomes NLP/Covert Hypnosis which I tend to think are one and the same. Either it's that or he's pulling a Chris Angel on us which I'm 99% sure he isn't. Okay one I forgot to mention is when he gave those 4 colloge students tooth aches just by mentioning it at first then kinda going into detail and tapping the mouths of each person and you can see they hurt, but when he snaps his finger or whatever it goes away. He EVEN explains on this one website I know (Go to Derren Brown on Wikipedia) how to tell if someone's lying. To me suggestion is not Magic or Mentalism but falls within Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis - NLP. One effect he he hell how he did it, he was in a upstairs apartment having this lady walk, then stop walking. They showed a lady on the street walking but stopped when the lady upstairs did. Then of course he did the "Invisible Man (HYPNOTIST) Routine" but a bit different. I see what you're saying. I got tons of mentalism, maybe not the right effects, books or DVD'S maybe. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: Alex1 (Feb 19, 2009 07:58PM)
"...Yes the paper money..."

I have heard that the blank paper effect is done via a Luke Jermay effect called Big Spender. Haven't seen the effect so I can't say for sure though.
Message: Posted by: WillBox (Feb 20, 2009 03:33AM)
Eddini, there is quite a crossover between mentalism and covert hypnosis or whatever you want to call it in that both require suggestion to some degree, and crafting a belief (or the imagination) within someone's head. In a way, the method is irrelevant, its still suggestion based whether you are deceiving them in some way or not. I have pulled off the toothache effect on a highly-suggestible subject before because they are receptive to the suggestion that I am doing something to their mouth by touching the side. All they have to do is lock their mind around the idea that its going to hurt (which is implied with language, tone, style etc) and they'll feel it. Remember that Derren would have put the odds in his favour by pre-screening his people beforehand, and we have no idea how he might prime them as well (even post hypnotic suggestions for all we know).

The invisible man routine I think was hypnosis/suggestion based, the woman stopping in the room I'm not so sure, I think it was more dual reality somehow but we don't know what her reality was. I think the embedded commands (stopping days until christmas etc) are just a red herring to throw you off the scent.

Swiss-magicians list is good - I would agree (exception being the arms lifting in shopping mall, I think dual reality is going on here also) and I do much prefer Derrens earlier, more curious Chan Canasta style work over the later tricksy fool-proof stuff.
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 20, 2009 06:21PM)
Thanks Will, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: Machina (Feb 21, 2009 09:34AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-19 02:46, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-02-18 18:06, Eddini_81976 wrote:
Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol
[/quote]

I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned - especially paying with paper, BMX and Heist.

All the best

Anthony
[/quote]

Anthony
I agree with the above, many things I had thought before were NLP/hypnosis was Derren doing what he does best. It took me ages to get my head around his methods.
Ps I finally got my greedy hands on a copy of Lift and Reminiscence.
Message: Posted by: Machina (Feb 21, 2009 09:54AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-19 02:46, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-02-18 18:06, Eddini_81976 wrote:
Yes the paper money, freeze, BMX bike (where he explains it though this MAY or MAY NOT be NLP), The 6 part series where they go to Rob, a bus full of money, zombie, there's a few including the Dummy. Now I MUST point out some people think like Chris Angel (who I can't stand as I'm not for stooges, editing, set-ups...etc) Derren uses set-ups. Unlike Chris Angel, I DO NOT believe that at all. I'm NOT a Derren Brown expert nor own any book of his YET, but I've talked to huge Derren Brown people here and they say there are no stooges, and usually like with Chris Angel my gut can tell me IMHO, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

P.S. Funny Routine though huh?...lol
[/quote]

I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned - especially paying with paper, BMX and Heist.

All the best

Anthony
[/quote]

Anthony
I agree with the above, many things I had thought before were NLP/hypnosis was Derren doing what he does best. It took me ages to get my head around his methods.
Ps I finally got my greedy hands on a copy of Lift and Reminiscence.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 22, 2009 11:26AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-19 02:46, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
...I enjoy Derren too. However I think you should think like a mentalist rather than an NLPer if you are interested in engineering many of the routines you have mentioned...[/quote]


I agree. There is an old adage that goes, "if all you have is a hammer, all of your problems look like nails." I have laughed so much in NLP-oriented forums when people who are not trained in NLP (but have read "lots of stuff" on line) but are so focused on NLP, and who know nothing about mentalism, give long descriptions of how DB uses NLP to achieve simple mentalism effects. When I finally point out that the discussion should be on a forum associated with magic, not NLP, and that what DB does is mentalist tricks using NLP, hypnosis, etc. as a form of misdirection, the people attack me and defend their own lack of knowledge.

So I point out:
1) NLP is not about public performance, it's about personal change
2) One of the key features of NLP is having a "series of techniques" and training to tell when one technique is not effective so you can switch to another technique
3) The same techniques do not work on everyone
4) As an entertainer, DB must always be successful and rapid--can't rely on NLP for that
5) Although DB claims less than 100% success, we don't see him fail.
6) It's TV. It's called "editing." How much happens that we don't see?
7) DB has published books on mentalism that he performs
8) DB uses all of this discussion for great publicity

After I post this list, or something like it, there's usually a pause in the thread for a short time, then it is completely ignored and people still keep posting about DB's use of hypnosis and NLP to achieve basic mentalist effects.
Message: Posted by: Nongard1 (Feb 22, 2009 11:47AM)
Pause....

Actually I always point out its tv entertainment not a news broadcast. What you see is not what you got. In your list #5-6 are the most overlooked, becasue, people want to BELIEVE...
Message: Posted by: Thomas Kwon (Feb 22, 2009 02:17PM)
I remember some kids posting that LIFT by Derren Brown was accomplished with NLP or Hypnosis.
I watched his performance of lift, and I laughed my ass off.
People are too ignorant nowadays.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 22, 2009 03:20PM)
Lift was one of the first routines I saw of his and I still love it.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: swiss_magician (Feb 22, 2009 03:25PM)
Maybe if people were willing to spend some time and a little amount of money to read "Tricks of the Mind", they would have some answers concerning Derren's point of view about hypnosis, and NLP. As he is pointing out in this text, he never mentions the use of NLP in his TV show disclaimer. He doesn't even mention hypnosis by the way, but 'suggestion'. Does he use NLP, hypnosis? Bah, let's call it 'suggestive techniques' as he names it, and that should be fine :)

M.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 22, 2009 04:45PM)
Fair point. However, regardless of what he pitches in TotM book regarding the theory of hypnosis it would be shortsighted to think this makes any difference to his practical use of it. He is entirely aware and capable of using the phenomena and hallucinations, catalepsy and amnesia are workable, especially so with the luxury of TV. It matters not if he thinks this is due to compliance, playing along or his brain resonating with yours at 40Hz. It works.

The problem some mystery performers have with being open about hypnosis is that for a portion of the public who accept hypnosis is involved, if their belief is that you can make people do anything with hypnosis, then it can take away from the mystery. So the choice seems to be to use it sparingly and wisely, mostly with invisible compromise and play it down to your lay audience. Treat it like the dirtiest part of the effect.

Ant
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 23, 2009 12:17PM)
Anthony, you make a great point.

A few months ago I saw Jeff McBride give a lecture. One of the things he stated that impressed me was that the really well-known performers develop a persona and then always appear in persona. Mae West developed her Diamond Lil personality and always appeared that way. Harry Anderson is always in a hat and suspenders.

Assuming DB functions along these lines, what he writes--even to the magic community--is going to further that persona. It's part of his act...and more power to him for it!
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 23, 2009 02:22PM)
I agree, a persona absolutely. Even when they DON'T think they're acting within one the reality may still be true.
I also agree that it doesn't matter a jot what DB says, believes, insists upon or mereley thinks is a good idea (it maybe does actually, but you'll never hear or read them). He's a close-magician who was squeezed into a different tube, which he found quite comfortable by the way. Ok, he's actually excellent within its form! However, his thoughts, outside his immediate family affairs, are worth no more then our own beloved: Mindpunisher. Howevr the public are the public, and they want/need to believe. And that's a truism. And truisms become truisms because they're true.
I remember Paul Daniels telling me several years ago that that weekend after appearing on 'Wheeltappers and Shunters' (massive variety TV show in the 70's here in the UK)his fees went up ten-fold and fellow pros hung on his every word. But he was still Paul with the same ideas.
Ok so DB pitches untruths or bends facts... I could feel myself going off on another tangent there... sorry.

bobser
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Feb 24, 2009 03:39AM)
Here is one where Derren Brown seem to be using an induction outright...

Or am I wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTml6AY-1RQ&feature=related

:online:
Message: Posted by: swiss_magician (Feb 24, 2009 04:52AM)
I remembered this one after having sent my list in this thread :)
During the first times I watched this clip, I almost drifted away in front of my screen.

Everything is set to make it work: light spirals, relaxing new age-like music :P, and of course the script. What I like about this one is that you do not need to choose the most suggestible people...the selection is self made as people walk by.
Sweeeet :P

Cheers,

M.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 24, 2009 10:44AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-24 04:39, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Here is one where Derren Brown seem to be using an induction outright...

Or am I wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTml6AY-1RQ&feature=related

:online:
[/quote]

Have you ever been to Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum in London? I have, on two different occasions. In spite of the implication that he (and his crew) just walked in (although they wouldn't give him a wax figure), I can assure you that there is NO WAY to have accomplished this without the full cooperation of the management. This was NOT some impromptu demonstration, but a well-prepared exhibition.

From the demonstration, although he kept saying to look at him, they were all looking down. I could have achieved the same response from people by saying, "I'd like to try an experiment. Please, if you'd like to participate, stand here and close your eyes. Now, focus on the musical sounds in the background. See if you can see color in the sound. Keep listening. The person who does this the longest will receive 20 Euros." And repeat this over and over. No hypnosis, just getting people to focus.

Of course, even Braid recognized that what he called hypnosis wasn't sleep but was being singularly focused. Still, what I saw was a prepared presentation that could have been anything.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Feb 24, 2009 11:07AM)
Hmm...

Interesting, if differing, takes on that clip swiss_magician and dmkraig...

I can see how both sides see it...

I don't have enough experience to make a judgement call really...

:online:
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 24, 2009 11:44AM)
I guess it depends upon your definition of NLP, and or Hypnosis. One of my definitions of NLP is using suggestion verbally (Covert Hypnosis), or non-verbally, his 3 of diamonds trick which I know doesn't work all the time. He's even given the secret away to his lying test. He'll have someone say name 5 things numbering them that you did yesterday. By watching (non-verbal) them they'll do something different on one of them. Again I know that technique isn't 100% accurate. I also knos, in paying with paper they showed one the hotdog guy...lol. I KNOW he uses it to B.S. people as well. People have told me to look at it from a Mentalist point of view, I HAVE, I TRIED. Also look back to my achoring routine. IT WORKS, I'VE SEEN IT. I even explain to the people and talk about NLP to them. What am I missing? WE know he doesn't use stooge work, actors, or camera editing okay except maybe his mess-ups. Also as Magicians we even say we're using a technique for one trick (though we're not), BUT use it for another trick. I tell you what. I'll list my Mentalism Books and DVD'S, and tell me which book(s) to look at to do (so I'm looking at it from a mentalist point of view), so I ca do "BMX Bike", "Dummy", "Advertising Routine", "The Hiest", "Where He Makes THe Girl's Car Change Color (Swish Pattern)", "Zombies". If I don't have the book to do those EXACT (EXACT) routines besides Derren's Books, tell me exactly the book or video to get. If you can't then you HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on.

1) 13 Steps
2) Practical Mental
3) Paramiracles
4) Banachek's PSI Series (DVD)
5) Illuminations (Jermay)
6) Mind Mysteries (DVD)
7) Kenton Knepper Book (Not Wonder Words, but this proves my theory true a little)
8) Peek Performances
9) Prism
10) Mental Miracles (DVD)
11) Mental Masterpieaces (DVD)
12) Theater of the Mind
13) Mind, Myth, and Magick (AWESOME BOOK)
14) Jon Tremaines Close-Up Mental Act (DVD)
15) Craig Karges Notes
16) World of Super Mentalism (Becker)

Like I said maybe I don't have the right learning material. You tell me, Thanks, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 24, 2009 11:54AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-24 12:44, Eddini_81976 wrote:If I don't have the book to do those EXACT (EXACT) routines besides Derren's Books, tell me exactly the book or video to get. If you can't then you HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on.
(Eddini), C.H.
[/quote]

No I do not have to admit that. You have enough books. If you were a mentalist who had never heard of hypnosis or anchoring how would you do paying with paper? Just have a lucky guess. The important thing to note is exactly what you see in the video of this routine. What do you actually see?

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 24, 2009 01:26PM)
If I had to guess it was stooge work. He doesn't use them though. Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 25, 2009 02:08AM)
Ed, may the gods bless you! I KNOW you totally want to believe that DB is using some form of advanced NLP and hypnosis because, if he can do it so can you or I...every time. Unfortunately, NLP just doesn't work that way. I absolutely love your enthusiasm and verve, and I hope that some day you'll actually get some real, in-person training in NLP and become a practitioner, a master practitioner, or even a trainer. When you do, you may find that you'll look back and say, "Boy, my definition of NLP as 'using suggestion verbally (Covert Hypnosis), or non-verbally' was sooooo oversimplified!"

No, Ed, I don't "HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on." What I DO fully admit, and with great admiration, is that DB uses some amazing verbal misdirection.

You know, a really good magician should be able to pull an equivoque on another trained magician and if he or she is really good, the second magician shouldn't even realize that a "magician's choice" is being used. It doesn't require NLP. It doesn't require hypnosis. It doesn't require covert hypnosis. It just requires great verbal misdirection. Of course, it's possible to define misdirection as NLP or hypnosis or covert hypnosis. So we can make just about anything into NLP if we want.

Perhaps that's why, instead of coming up with our own definitions of NLP we should consider using those of B&G (and maybe Dilts, too). Wouldn't that make more sense?
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 25, 2009 02:48AM)
I think it's all been said. But I'd throw in 2 more things(obvious to workers I know). The first thing is that we have all witnessed astounding evidence that a good hypnotist with a good subject can, in time, achieve miracles. And secondly, If I were the worst at anything in the world, with the right set up and given enough time, money and as many subjects to throw my poor skills at, a professional EDIT would make me seem God-like.
I know I said 2 more things, but I'd also like to throw in 'people'. People can be clever without being too smart. And with the proper hype (I truly believe mentalists can learn tons from 'show-hypnotists' about hype) emotions flow like a raging river. I happened to slip on a NW yesterday and had people turning white with elementery stuff that a first year mentalist or magish would easily accomplish. Now then, gimme a budget and let me use intellectual bendy words which have very little resemblance to reality and I become..... well, whatever they construct of me.

bobser
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Feb 25, 2009 03:22AM)
>>>>No, Ed, I don't "HAVE to admit there is at least some NLP / Hypnosis / Covert Hypnosis going on." What I DO fully admit, and with great admiration, is that DB uses some amazing verbal misdirection<<<

Actually some of the top trainers in NLP were fooled by Derren Brown believing him to be real. Even today there are many NLP companies that believe Derren is Genuine. I used to love attending NLP meetings and demonstrating mentalism.

They are such an easy gullible bunch to fool.

Having said that Derren DOES by default use some NLP. Much of his early character was modelled on Bandler. And therefore the charaisma generated by his persona is partly responsable. The handshake induction the language he used in many of his early works were very Bandleresque.

It is also a possibility by studying NLP he has picked up some techniques and structures for maximizing presentations. ( He has studied it just because he slates it in public doesn't mean his opinion is correct - or even is his genuine opinion)
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Feb 25, 2009 04:57AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-24 14:26, Eddini_81976 wrote:
If I had to guess it was stooge work. He doesn't use them though. Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
[/quote]

I wouldn't believe any claims Derren makes. I think he may use them occasionally.

One that comes to mind was when he had a female clench her fist and say stop while looking out her window. And someone on the street stopped and looked up. The person on the street was obviously being signaled to stop when she clenched her hand and said stop.

The person in the street was most likely a stooge. If Derren lies about using NLP then its fair to assume he would lie about not using stooges. Lets face it Derren has made his fortune from being a very good liar. I think it was his lawyer training. Lawyer/liar almost the same.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 25, 2009 05:11AM)
The great thing about claiming to use what we now term NLP is that nobody, not even NLP trainers, can challenge you and claim you're not.
It' great when NLP people (big spectrum I know)come up to you after a show and tell you that they recognised the principles that you 'oh so cleverly embraced' in your presentation and you smile, and smile and just... smile. And they don't really know why you're smiling.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Feb 25, 2009 05:52AM)
Well we agree on one thing - messing with the heads of NLPers can be a lot of fun.

They are like the scientists that Banachek fooled. They so desparately want to believe. As do the new age spiritual community.

But what if I told you its not only possible to use this - NLP suggestion, hypnosis whatever you want to call it - for real but also easy to prove.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 25, 2009 07:53AM)
Ooooooooohhhhhh!!!!!
lets be serious. hypnosis yes, NLP no way (but if I'm wrong... "show us").
And stay off the new agers. We know stuff.
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 25, 2009 08:19AM)
I DO entirely I think see where you're coming from. I can't tell you how many people REALLY claim I was Psychic and had power after doing mentalism, metal bending cold reading so I do get the fun aspect. Most know how the 3 of Diamonds trick works (just keep a I.D. or B.W.D. ready), what method is that? I know the method, but have never seen it in any mentalism text. To me your physically putting suggestions into the subconcious mind which I thought, or could be NLP. Yes above was a over simplified definition. Here is how I explain it people. You got N for Neuro, the brain, L for linguistics, language, and P for programming. So I talk to your subconcious through certain techniques that your brain easily accepts, and I re-program your behaviors for the better. That's how I explain it to laymen.


AWESOME VIDEO John Grinder Explains NLP in the 8 minute clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYU7dkG6DtA


Derren brown DOES use a Hypnotic Induction in one routine. I think it's called Messiah. It's a two part video, where he plays a faith healer, such as Binny Hin, where you lay hands fall back and ger "Slain In The Holy Spirit". I've actually had this done FOR REAL though at a healing service. I was prayed over and all of a sudden I fell backwords, and I was in such a state of peace like being hugged by God, and felt really good for a week. I just wanted to keep laying there. After 15 minutes or so, I got up, felt on top of the world. Look back they weren't using hypnotic techniques except for seeing people fall before me and I know there are huge scams in that (Peter Papaloff)...etc. Anyway a guy was taped watching that and explaining things bit by bit. You had to turn it up to hear Derren, and Down when he talked, but all that was, was a fallback induction into their chairs, expectancy...etc. As far as stooges, I never heard Derren Brown Say he doesn't use them, it was a few people here who I trust and have read his books and are his fans that told me.

Okay I'm taking a risk here. Here is a video of a guy talking about "At The Dog Track". This is NOT a explanation, because he even says he posted it for fun guessing at the methos. It's 5 minutes long, same guy with the Instant Healing I mentioned above. I DO NOT want to be busted for exposure, HOWEVER if this comes too close or over the line, staff PLEASE remove it, you don't have to PM me as I'll understand. As I said I like this site. I'm only posting this as to show people WHY I think the way I do, and why to me at least it makes sense. This guy as I said could totally 100% be wrong. PLEASE I don't want to get into trouble, I just want to post this just once as I feel people don't understand where or why I have my beliefs. It's not all me in other words. As a aside I TOTALLY 100% disagree with his take on religion, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdMaZzL_a90
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 25, 2009 11:12AM)
I've got a real good feeling that you're not going to get thrown out of The Café Ed.
And the simple reason of course is that, although a certain type of kudos may have been felt by the guy lecturing in the clip, neither he nor you are guilty in any way shape or form of exposure.
By the way I'll bet DB loves it!

bobser
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2009 11:46AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-25 06:52, mindpunisher wrote:
Well we agree on one thing - messing with the heads of NLPers can be a lot of fun.

They are like the scientists that Banachek fooled. They so desparately want to believe. As do the new age spiritual community.
[/quote]

I will have to join you in agreement sirs.

They are clouded by WANTING to believe and blinded by actual belief, and then trying to find something that fits the belief.
Message: Posted by: ELDEMONIO (Feb 26, 2009 12:37AM)
WOW this topic is so funny, because here you are trying to figure out if Derren uses NLP in his performances. If Derren read this topic I think he would laugh at how people are really willing to beleive things. I think Derren's performance is is so good and so "real" that even we magicians want to believe in his NLP abilities. NLP has as a similarity to god in that both have NO scientific basis, but people in large numbers still belive in it.
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 26, 2009 02:53AM)
Okay here is my final analysis on this.

Nlp is Real

Hypnosis is Real, and Can't be Debated, and he used Hypnotic Tecniques (Invisible man)

Does he use NLP. ONLY the minimal stuff like pattern breaking & Pattern Interupts, anchors (notice he touches people a lot...lol) NOTHING big.

Russian Roulette, That was 100% Mentalism as you can get as under that table was a special "Someone" to where he could see going on.

Lying trick. Just intense observation. Anyone could learn this in a day with proper training.

Picking Suggestable People

Great B.S.er

So he does strong Mentalism with a little hypnosis and VERY MINIMUM Nlp, and a great showman. This thread has opened my eyes and I thank you. I just (there's laymen in everyone) that part of me want to learn his secrets...lol, I won't lie and he doesn't use stooge work. I've listened to all the evidence and that my theory, which actuallu AGREES with most of you too so that's cool, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: Alex1 (Feb 26, 2009 10:23AM)
How do you know Derren doesn't use stooges?
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 26, 2009 11:07AM)
Ed, why do you say something "can't be debated?" I would say that of course the reality of hypnosis can be debated. The reality of anything depends upon your definitions. For example, some people, including myself, would contend that hypnosis is the bypassing of the "critical faculty" that separates the conscious and unconscious minds. The problem is that nobody has ever seen or proved the existence of an unconscious mind. We can see the results of an unconscious mind, but not the unconscious mind itself. In fact, the very concept of an unconscious mind is merely a theoretical construct to explain the data--it doesn't prove it's real.

However, your analysis is accurate--coming from someone with no formal training in NLP and minimal training in hypnosis and mentalism. People with more training in those areas may differ.

I was fortunate enough to see Kuda Bux perform at the magic castle several times. To the best of my knowledge, he never revealed his secrets of doing X-Ray vision. Even experienced mentalists don't know exactly how he did the effect. Maybe some of them figured it out, maybe they didn't. I don't know. What I DO know is that he was a great entertainer and his performance encouraged many to follow in his footsteps.

FAR more important than how he does it is how well he performs it.

There's an old saying that goes, "if you know 1,000 ways to find a card and 1 way to reveal it, it looks like you know 1 trick. But if you only know 1 way to find a card and 1,000 ways to reveal it, it looks like you know 1,000 tricks."

To non-magicians, HOW HE DOES IT is the mystery. To magicians, THE WAY HE PERFORMS IT is the skill.

Do you get what I'm saying? If you want to spend weeks getting trained in NLP and months or years practicing so you can do effects like DB, go ahead! If you want to spend months getting training and more months or years in practice of hypnosis so you can do effects like DB, go ahead!

On the other hand, you can think like a mentalist. Ask yourself, "With the knowledge and skills I have RIGHT NOW, what can I do to achieve the effects of DB so they will work every time and make a great performance?" That's the key to success.

I recently purchased a booklet from Kenton K. which has ideas on doing a hypnosis-like show. One effect really struck me. Are you familiar with the concept of "negative hallucinations?" In this effect someone writes a number (or group of numbers) on a pad of paper. You show it to everyone and they all see the numbers. You then show it to the person you have "hypnotized," and he/she has a negative hallucination and only sees a blank sheet of paper.

I've performed it a couple of times and people have marveled at my ability to instantly hypnotize and create a perfect negative hallucination.

But it uses no hypnosis. No NLP. The misdirection/patter focuses on hypnosis and negative hallucinations. People THINK it uses hypnosis because they don't know enough about hypnosis and because I tell them I'm using hypnosis.

Is it possible--just possible--that your "analysis" is based not on what you do know, but on what you don't know?

Uri Geller said he was psychic and some people--even magicians--believed him.
DB implies that he uses hypnosis and NLP and some people--even magicians and people with training in hypnosis and NLP--believe him.

Is a parallel possible?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 26, 2009 11:16AM)
I believe you meant "if you know 1000 ways to 'force' a card" not 'find' a card.
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Feb 26, 2009 04:36PM)
Hey that's cool. I'm more into Hypnosis than NLP, and yes have more to learn in both. As I said a few people here tells me he uses no stooges. Of of the Richard Osterlind mindset, I'm against stooge work 100%, hence why I refuse to watch Chris Angel, can't stand him. He get me going like the Masked Magician HOWEVER his cell escape in tribute to Houdini, and stage work are fine. Kenton Knepper is great. My 3 favorite Mentalist are Osterlind, Banachek, and Brown. I do think Derren uses it a lot less so my views have changed a bit. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini), C.H.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 27, 2009 10:10AM)
[quote]
On 2009-02-26 12:16, Dannydoyle wrote:
I believe you meant "if you know 1000 ways to 'force' a card" not 'find' a card.
[/quote]

Force or "find a chosen" card works for me.
Message: Posted by: Photo-Wizard (Mar 3, 2009 01:26PM)
I personally know a Hypnosis Trainer whose DVD's have been bought by Objective Productions who make Derren Shows and also made Rajan and the evil Hypnotists and let me tell you this Derren uses far more real Hypnosis and NLP than you'd ever imagine.

Yes its true some things can be done the magial way and look like Hypnosis, but in honesty many of them are much easier,quicker and cost effective to film when pre-filming hypnosis is done and the person just has to react to post hypnotics.

Also beautiful thing about hypnosis is amnesia and being able to make the person forget than any pre-show work ever took place so they themselves end up beliving that what they see on TV is all that really happened as well.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Mar 4, 2009 05:39AM)
LOL. Not being funny mate but I don't think Objective simply go and buy DVDs wthout then buying the performer. For what it's worth I also know a hypnotist who 'claims' that Objective bought his DVD's... but y'know what? I've got a funny feeling that whether or not they had a peep at our mate's DVDs or not, eventually they made a phone call and got a guy to come round.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 4, 2009 05:45AM)
I think Derren uses a huge amount of pre hypnosis. Esp in his later shows. I also think as genius like as they are they do take from other sources. Even from here at least at the start.
Message: Posted by: Photo-Wizard (Mar 4, 2009 06:49AM)
Hi Bobser

If we are talking about the same person and I think we may possibly be?

Then, well look at the clips of Rajan and The Evil Hypnotists on You-Tube for example and the Patter used (you have to lip read some of it due to the background music) and the physical actions and order things are done for Rajans Full Body Catalepsy Routine and also for the Blowtorch burning hairs off the volunteers body "sideshow" style stunts are IDENTICAL in most every manner to the way they are taught on a set of DVDS which I bought off Ebay from this person towards the end of 2000 way before that TV show was made.

I'm also aware of a person originally from Australia (again who I met at Blackpool although on this occasion I am talking about last year) who informed me they had contacted Objective Productions after seeing the Rajan Hypnotist shows and asked for advice on how to learn hypnosis and the people at Objective apparently gave them the contact details of our "friend"

Don't know exactly how true that is but certainly suprised me and made me think when I heard it.
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Jul 27, 2010 04:02AM)
Im more interested in how the volenteers are selected.

Is there some sort of audition held where another hypnotist put them in to a trance and gives them post hypnotic suggestions to forget what just happened and when Derren asks them to think of a number between 1 and 100000 they go for 7893 ?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 27, 2010 06:23AM)
They most likely advertise for volunteers. Most tv programmes do.

Which means they are highly responsive anyway. More than normal.