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Topic: Just Gotta Say
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Mar 17, 2009 09:07AM)
While I admire gaff coins and actually have quite a lot of them in all the years I've been playing with coin magic, I just have to say that I find SOH with regular coins to be so much more rewarding. Yes the gaffs make it easier to make the magic happen but usually that's the end of it with those coins. Don't get me wrong I like many of these gaffs here, just as much as I liked them as a boy...Loved them things. :)

But SOH is so much more. Of course you can mix the two and there are many great routines doing just that and I guess that's the best of both worlds. Again, no disrespect to the gaff industry or the makers of these fine coins. :)
Message: Posted by: prototype (Mar 17, 2009 01:53PM)
It's true. In fact, I can't think of many gaffed tricks that can't be adapted to do with normal coins. Plus you end clean and it won't break your heart if one slips from your grip and crashes to the floor(haha). But of course, it always fun to sneak one into a routine to accomplish something crazy.
Message: Posted by: MarkTirone (Mar 17, 2009 03:40PM)
I agree fully. The only coin gaffs I have ever used in my magic is Jay Sankey's half coin trick and the karate coin. I feel that ever other gaff effect can be acocmplished by means of sleight of hand. The flipper kind of visual appearance can be accomplished by a tenkai pinch and production. A shell can be accomplished with a purse palm or front finger hold palm up and with 2 coins stacked on top of each other and angled down a little bit. The only gaffs I feel cannot be accomplished with sleight of hand are the karate coin and other effects where something happens that appears perminent.
Message: Posted by: Bill Citino (Mar 17, 2009 06:28PM)
MB,
This is a great post man. It opens a lot of room for debate. I find myself torn though. Ultimately, I'm a purist at heart and prefer to do things without any gaffs. I also agree in part with what Mark and prototype have mentioned as well.

Although, I agree with everything that has been said...I must disagree in part as well. It's true that effects that are accomplished with gaffs can be adapted to regular coins, as Mark says. I still feel that even though this can be done it still can take away from the fairness of any given effect.

To use Mark's example of the purse palm being substituted for a shell (sorry Mark, but the example aides in my argument lol, I'm sure you won't mind :))...He's right, that would be one way to do it. But using a nested coin and shell is soooooo much more honest and fair. The spectators actually see one coin, front and back, and your hand is actually empty. Whereas if you're using purse palm to conceal a coin, the situation may seem fair but is no where nearly as clean and open as if using the shell. Not to mention you're limited in moving your hand and angles to make sure the double coins isn't seen.

I guess I come from the school of thought where sleight of hand and gaffs should be combined to make an effect look like "real magic". Don't get me wrong, careful thought and consideration should be taken when doing this because there are most certainly times where sleight of hand will suffice sans gaff. I'm also not saying that using gaffs all the time is right either. Just that it depends on the effect....

Ultimately, to me, there are just certain things that can't be done with sleight of hand, that can be with gaffs. Just one person's humble opinion.

-Bill
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Mar 17, 2009 07:46PM)
[quote]
On 2009-03-17 10:07, Mb217 wrote:
Of course you can mix the two and there are many great routines doing just that and I guess that's the best of both worlds.
[/quote]

Do you have U3F? Triple Threat? Cerberus?

I love doing sleight of hand along with custom gaffed coins.

Best,

D.L.
Message: Posted by: MarkTirone (Mar 17, 2009 09:11PM)
Well Bill, I have to hit one back at you lol. (oh and before I forget and get side tracked, if you are ever in the market for a coin roll with a coin nested inside a shel, Bill has your back ;)) Just when you think I couldn't produce a Miser's dream of "Vertigo" ideas, I have yet another one I havn't told you about (and yes, I'm really just rolling them out one by one now lol) I have a way to combine the Ramsey, Liwag subtlety, and front finger hold as well as purse palm idea, to hold a coin at the fingertips and conceal another coin behind it. I challenge somebody to give me a routine (other than karate coin or effects where the coin is broken or messed up durring the trick)and somehow not allow me to find a way to do it without gaffs.
Message: Posted by: jprace (Mar 17, 2009 09:20PM)
For me, I try to make my magic look as magical as possible for the laymen. They don't don't know if I'm using a gaff or if I'm not. Only magicians care. If the effect is more magical to them, I think that's the way to go.

But Mark, I challenge you to imitate the power of the Flipper Coin, two coins to one coin, while showing front and back of the hand cleanly and empty. I would like you to show me a way to show four coins and place them on the table, show both hands empty, and then continue with a coins across routine that looks as good as one with a shell. You can't.
--People try to imitate tricks with gaffs all the time, but in reality, the one with the gaff is usually better. Maybe not for the magician, but for the layman. Because THEY DON'T KNOW!

But Mark, if you can do those things please show me.

Rewarding to the magician, but not as much to the layman. Real magic compared to obvious skill in sleight of hand.
Message: Posted by: prototype (Mar 17, 2009 09:46PM)
I think something should be said about the complexity of gaffs. For example, I am much more willing and able to incorporate a steel core, magnetic coin, shell or cop/sil coin, or even a flipper into a routine rather than a Triple Threat, Cerebus, or Sun and Moon and the like( although I do own a Cerebus coin and I love it, killer matrix effects possible with this). It becomes a different question if you're trying to combine just one little gaff or integrate a series of shells or double sided coins. It is beyond simple to ditch one piece, but to have to work with a multi pieced gaff is different and limiting as far as fairness. It's like comparing card gaffs. Would you be more willing to ring in a double-facer to do a good trick and sneak it back out or to switch to a gaffed deck that can't be shown freely to do only one trick with that deck? I guess I'm trying to explain that with pure SOH you can move on and on from one effect to the next, but to use a gaff there are levels. With a Triple Threat you are limited to effects and you have to get rid of the thing at the end, but with one simple addition, like a shell or C/S coin, you can easily accomodate the addition and ditch also, or continue with numerous effects.
Message: Posted by: MarkTirone (Mar 17, 2009 10:28PM)
Because it is easier. That is my question to why I don't use gaffs.It is easier to just go to a bank, buy a few coins, and go to my routines like that. Now Jeff, do you want me to just lay them out, cover them with my hands, and have them go, or is it at the fingers? It makes me feel better to know that when people are at a gig or at a party, and somebody asks them to do a trick, and you have forgotten your flipper or shell, and don't know anything to show them without all these crazy gimmicks. I can and will do a ver good coins across with just 4 coins, open hands. time for a challenge for Jeff here, what would you do if you were doing a coin effect with a flipper where one coin turns into 2, and soebody imedietly asks you to let them examine the coin, and you have no extra coins. Can you get out of that?
Message: Posted by: krintz (Mar 17, 2009 11:48PM)
I respect you, Marion, for your devotion to the purity of SOH.
Maybe you'll eventually do the Dylan thing, and go from acoustic to electric.
Imagine an MB download that mixed the brilliance of the crimp, and a shell/flipper (insert new brilliance).
And, yes... I hope you do the Dylan thing.
A fan,
Krintz
Message: Posted by: jordanl (Mar 18, 2009 06:11AM)
I like the middle ground-I like sleight of hand, and believe every magician should have at least a few effects that can be done with ordinary objects; OTOH if a shell or flipper can make some effects more magical why not use one. I do a few different versions of coins across, and find the finale of making the last coin fly into the spectators hand does get the strongest reaction.
Message: Posted by: Mediocre the Great (Mar 18, 2009 03:07PM)
I started off in coin magic as a sleight of hand purist. I never used gimmicks. SOH is extremely rewarding and frankly, nothing is more reliable or less expensive.

The eye popping perfect illusions created with the combination of SOH and gaffs is very addictive. I met Dean Dill 10 years ago and I started using shells. Then he got me hooked on flippers. Today I only use flippers socially, but I admit I'm totally hooked on shells. I'm even hooked on hook coins.

I'm now in a 12 step recovery program for coin gaffs. I hope I can recover.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Mar 18, 2009 04:24PM)
It's not about hard or easy, Gaffed or ungaffed! It's about does it Like MAGIC! Layman don't care what we use thay just to see MAGIC! So If it where realy MAGIC How would look? And try to get as close as possable!
Message: Posted by: MarkTirone (Mar 18, 2009 04:42PM)
Well, like I said, I can take jsut about every gaffed effect and do it with just sleight of hand and look really like Magic, so I guess I will never need a gaff (other than the karate coin)
Message: Posted by: mystre71 (Mar 18, 2009 06:03PM)
Mark, You're correct you can do most routines with out the need of a gaff. But, you'll also never have the clean look a gaff can provide.

Best,
Joe
Message: Posted by: Eric Jones (Mar 18, 2009 06:10PM)
[quote]
On 2009-03-18 17:42, MarkTirone wrote:
Well, like I said, I can take jsut about every gaffed effect and do it with just sleight of hand and look really like Magic, so I guess I will never need a gaff (other than the karate coin)
[/quote]

Of course you can....but truthfully why would you? I, like most of you, was a purist. I personally felt that using a gaff was the easy way out of a doing the trick. I always considered gaffed coin routines to be almost self working, requiring almost no skill. Examples of this of course being Scotch and Soda, Dime and Penny, Hopping Halves,and Lethal Tender. If I could do it with brute force sleight of hand, it would be much more rewarding. I performed difficult routines for laymen with excellent results such as Sol Stones one handed triple change spellbound from CoinMagic and Chris Kenner's Two Coin Symphony from The Right Stuff.

The problems I've had with just sleight of hand include:
1) If your sleight of hand is flawed, the method can become apparent to your lay audience. Regardless of what they actually say something to you about it or not, they CAN sense tension, in both your hands and your body.
2) You're almost ALWAYS holding out. Sure you may have a convincing display while holding out to give the illusion of being clean....but you're still holding out.
3)Adjustments. You know when the magician is working a coin into what ever concealment because the are very obvious tells. From the "hitchhiking" thumb, to the unnatural curling of the fingers, to blinking whenever a move takes place.

If it hadn't been for meeting David Neighbors several years ago. I think I'd still be having some of these problems. I remember David teaching me to, " lead them down the garden path, then turn the hoses on them..." Since then, I've found that when you combine sleight of hand with certain gaffs at just the right time, you have something so magical, it's hard to reverse engineer. Cop/Sil/Brass by Geoff Latta is a great example of this kind of thinking, as was John Ramsey's Cylinder and Coins. The gaffs make the routine much more convincing than sleight of hand alone. If you find using just sleight of hand rewarding. Excellent. But you're depriving your audiences of a real "WTF" moment of astonishment by not using the cleanliness of a gaff to your full advantage.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it....
Message: Posted by: jprace (Mar 18, 2009 06:12PM)
[quote]
On 2009-03-17 23:28, MarkTirone wrote:
Because it is easier. That is my question to why I don't use gaffs.It is easier to just go to a bank, buy a few coins, and go to my routines like that. Now Jeff, do you want me to just lay them out, cover them with my hands, and have them go, or is it at the fingers? It makes me feel better to know that when people are at a gig or at a party, and somebody asks them to do a trick, and you have forgotten your flipper or shell, and don't know anything to show them without all these crazy gimmicks. I can and will do a ver good coins across with just 4 coins, open hands. time for a challenge for Jeff here, what would you do if you were doing a coin effect with a flipper where one coin turns into 2, and soebody imedietly asks you to let them examine the coin, and you have no extra coins. Can you get out of that?
[/quote]

You are thinking only about yourself. Magic is not for you, but the person you are entertaining. And there are outs for everything, and I've always believed handing out some props for examination breaks the flow of the routine. All though the same basic routine can be accomplished, the magical appearance will be brought down one step. And Mark, please make a video of your routine then.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Mar 18, 2009 06:36PM)
Some us are unable to do a lot of the difficult coin sleights. My hands and fingers, already short, wide, fat, and inflexible, have been injured multiple times over the years. I've broken every finger at least once in sports or other activities. My left hand has been crushed twice, once in a garage door, and once in a freight elevator door. I had a bottle of a volitile chemical explode while I was holding it. In a fight in high school, a guy intentionally broke several of my fingers. I accidentally stabbed myself in the hand when I was 12 (knife slipped while I was carving).

As a result, I am simply unable to do a lot of stuff. I can do basic palms and transfers, and switches. But I can't do a Tenkai Pinch convincingly. I can't do anything that requires the thumb or pinky to bend very far (I can't even touch the end of my thumb to the end of my pinky in either hand--just too much scar tissue build-up).

So for me, a lot of that gorgeous sleight of hand is out the window. I can't do most of Kam;s or McClintock's stuff, for example. It's not a matter of practice, it's a matter of being physically unable to do it. Therefore, I use gaffs. I simplify. I use variations and simplifications of moves. I use subtleties--a LOT. I use routine construction and audience management to accomplish a lot of my coin work, such that sleight of hand is not needed. Combined with the judicious use of gaffs, laymen seem to think I'm pretty good, although magicians tend to turn up their noses.

And I'm OK with that. Laymen sign my checks, magician's don't! My philosophy: My loyalties lie with the people who sign my paychecks!
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Mar 18, 2009 06:48PM)
If Someone Ask to see a coin your doing it your doing it at the wrong time! You have to know WHEN to do a trick not just HOW!Stuff like that is I Call " Walk On watter Stuff"
You only do it after thay know your god :) And you can walk on water! I allways say Lurn your Sleight of hand frist so if someone hands you 4 coins you can do something with them! Than after thay know your good you can ring in the gaff!
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Mar 18, 2009 07:16PM)
Good advice David! I certainly do some non-gaffed stuff, like Flying Eagles, Coins to Glass, Matrix, my Wormhole routine. But none of those require what I would classify as difficult sleights. But yeah, I agree that it's better to start out with normal coins, and after you've established yourself, ring in the gaffs.

David knows whereof he speaketh!
Message: Posted by: Sammy J. (Mar 18, 2009 11:35PM)
I have been friends with David Neighbors for 30 years. He has taught me so much during that time. I firmly believe in strong SOH coupled with the proper gaffs at the right time. PLUS I love playing with cool gaffs!! They just get my creative juices flowing! My magic is stronger because of the gaffs. I guarantee you that David calls me out when I depend too much on the gaffs.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Mar 19, 2009 12:12AM)
I enjoy using gaffs for purposes other than that for which they were originally intended. It can make for some very interesting and visual magic that can even fool a lot of magicians familiar with the gaffs themselves--not that this last is an important consideration tome, but it can still be fun!
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Mar 19, 2009 12:24AM)
Yea and just becase it's gaffed does not mean it's easy! I have some stuff Where I am backpalming two coin and useing a gaff! :) So I love combinding Hard core SOH with A gaff!Or Takeing a Self working gaffed trick and tossing in some SOH.
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (Mar 19, 2009 08:24AM)
Gaffed coins have their place, SOH satisfies our artistic side. Combining both often opens even newer doors. I also enjoying using gaffed hands and treated coins to create unexpected results.

Kotah
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Mar 19, 2009 08:51AM)
[quote]
On 2009-03-17 10:07, Mb217 wrote:
I just have to say that I find SOH with regular coins to be so much more rewarding.
[/quote]

Ahhh! Purist at heart.
As as amateur I rarely anything 'special' on a daily basis.
If I'm attending an event and feel like I may want to do some tricks then I will reward my audience with some 'special' coin effects as well as be prepared for other seemingly impromptu magic.
When I did perform regularly I was always prepared.

I think that the rewards obtained from SOH may be more for the performer.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Mar 19, 2009 12:21PM)
I would agree with that Jaz my man...Be prepared either way.

This string has launched some great comments from both sides of the road and the middle as well.

Firstly, I think what's most important about magic are the specs because it is their senses you engage with stories, twists and turns of reality. That being said, I guess I enjoy SOH because it psychologically leads/guides the spec through the routine. You have to do a lot of work to get people off the track while they think they are still on the track.

So one must construct a fabrication of reality as it is being judged and assessed by the spec at the very same time. To me a gaff [can] rob the performer of this feeling of shall we say, "Power." I don't know about you all but I get off on constructing a bridge that's not really there but it feels like it is to specs, so they suspect nothing and follow along...;)

Depending on your perspective, sure a gaff can save you the trouble of making certain things happen but it can also rob you of the real power to control spec's minds. I guess a gaff can do this too but it's too clean and it comes off not as a power but a trap or holding pen. There's no real sport in snipering a deer from a tree perch as he wanders by right in front of you. The true sport is in tracking him down and finally catching him in his element on his terms where he thinks he can't be caught or something like that. :)

With all of that I still think gaffs are great too and when you can intermingle them in good routines that still require SOH to pull off, well all the better. I do use basic gaffs at times in some of my routines and the funky stuff like Triple Threat, Split Coin, Super Coin, Anything by Steve Dusheck, Schoolcraft, etc. just makes the moment unreal, so I guess everything has its place or it wouldn't be here.

I sorta look at it like this...As wonderful as it is to watch Maxwell Smart and Inspector Gadget and James Bond use all their clever toys to do their jobs, I still appreciate Sherlock Holmes with a simple magnifying glass so much more for some reason. Though if I had to walk up 20 flights of stairs or take an elevator it would be the elevator...:D

Anyway, this string turned into a very good discussion, wish I would've provided it as one of my downloads. :D
Message: Posted by: MarkTirone (Mar 19, 2009 02:21PM)
I know it isn't about me, it's about the audience and entertaining them. But I can ver well do a no gaffed 3fly better than with a gaff. I don't want all my special wallets and purses in my pockets or gaffs that I don't know what to do with them in my pockets. I would rather put a few coins in my pocket and maybe another effect and then I would be able to entertain for 20 minutes if I really have to. I don't have to impress the magicians to know what I can do and what I actually do. Why are you being so negative here Jeff? I want you to explain to me in detail and with full explanation to back up your argument why I can't and why nobody can do a genuinly gaffed routine with normal coins and have it look jsut as magical as a normal routine. Doesn't it strike you as boring if you just paid your hands on top of 4 coins and have them go across to the other hand the same way 4times? You are thinking WAAAAAY along the lines of being "too perfect". Why would you want to hold 3 coins at your finger tips and have them just instantly and visuall go from one hand to the other? WHERE is the mystery in that? With ungaffed coins, you can do just that but make it actually entertaining! I'm sorry to argue but I really feel strong about this. Eric saw me to my ungaffed, 3 coins only copper silver brass that looks nothing differnt from a gaffed routine. If you show me a gaffed cop/sil/brass, I can do the exact same thing. So please, Jeff, when you tell me why $500 worth of gaffs is necessary I will do that video you want.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Mar 19, 2009 03:02PM)
Hand a mixed bag of reg. and gaffed coins to Rannie or Dean Dill and STAND BACK! I've only just met Eric but he is killer with coins regular or otherwise! I only name these 3 because I know them and/or have hung out with them enough to see their work up close and personal! I know Dave Neighbors is the monster donster of mixed bag coin magic and based on what I've seen my brother Smooth do with reg. coins, I can only imagine what he'd come up with in that oh so devious mind of his with "funny" coinage! The Captain can turn a coin into a Scooby Doo van so I need not say anything about his ability! We won't even go into what the talented Mickey can do with straight coins so add some gaffage and you'll need therapy after one session!

I personally like having options!

BTW, The "Blow Change" is gaffless and STILL gives me tingly feelings when I see it or do it myself! I LOVE THE BC!

Mick
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Mar 19, 2009 03:04PM)
[quote]
On 2009-03-19 13:21, Mb217 wrote:
Firstly, I think what's most important about magic are the specs because it is their senses you engage with stories, twists and turns of reality. That being said, I guess I enjoy SOH because it psychologically leads/guides the spec through the routine. You have to do a lot of work to get people off the track while they think they are still on the track.
[/quote]
I agree about engaging the audience but gaffs are just tools like SOH and there's no difference in the psychology.
[quote]
So one must construct a fabrication of reality as it is being judged and assessed by the spec at the very same time. To me a gaff [can] rob the performer of this feeling of shall we say, "Power." I don't know about you all but I get off on constructing a bridge that's not really there but it feels like it is to specs, so they suspect nothing and follow along...;)
[/quote]
I don't really know what you mean by "construct a fabrication of reality".
I thought we were supposed to do something beyond reality.
[quote]
Depending on your perspective, sure a gaff can save you the trouble of making certain things happen but it can also rob you of the real power to control spec's minds. I guess a gaff can do this too but it's too clean and it comes off not as a power but a trap or holding pen. There's no real sport in snipering a deer from a tree perch as he wanders by right in front of you. The true sport is in tracking him down and finally catching him in his element on his terms where he thinks he can't be caught or something like that. :)
[/quote]
Disagree about both the hunting analogy and robbing and power by using gaffs.
[quote]
I sorta look at it like this...As wonderful as it is to watch Maxwell Smart and Inspector Gadget and James Bond use all their clever toys to do their jobs, I still appreciate Sherlock Holmes with a simple magnifying glass so much more for some reason. Though if I had to walk up 20 flights of stairs or take an elevator it would be the elevator...:D
[/quote]
:lol: Elevator. Like I said, you're purist at heart and so am I.
To my thinking there is a cleanliness about SOH that I like so will only use assistance at certain times.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 19, 2009 04:11PM)
Like bringing a coin back right after you make it vanish, it's a phase.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Mar 19, 2009 06:27PM)
Hi Mick,
Hay thanks man! I never been a Monster Donster Before! :)
Message: Posted by: Griff (Mar 19, 2009 10:33PM)
I carry 1 gaff with me at all times...a shell and 4 silver dollars. My favorite routine is a 3 coin production into 3 fly and then vanish all 3 one at a time. Nothing too original, but the routining is the thing. When I produce the coins one at a time, it is done in a way that I hand out (if needed) each one instantly after they are produced. Actually I flip each one into the air with a "ping" sound off my thumbnail. I could do this without a shell (and the whole routine for that matter). But this routine is so much cleaner with the gaff. My objective is to make it as clean and as impossible as possible. My favorite version of the hanging coins plot was always David Roth's original. I did it (and still do sometimes), for many years...I love it. But, I now do Greg Brewer's version of a Larry Jennings routine and it plays so much stronger IMO. With some routines people assume that you have to be using an extra coin somehow, even though they may not see it. Do that same effect with a shell, proper routining and good sleight of hand, and you will leave them clueless. With 3 fly for example, I can clearly show that I have only 3 coins at the beginning, anywhere in the middle and at the end...just with a shell. I could go on and on... Learn all the sleights you can to perfection and then make your routines as clean and magical as possible. If that means using a gaff then so be it.
Message: Posted by: MarkTirone (Mar 19, 2009 10:53PM)
So Griff, here is a question that has been tossed around a bit. If you could, would you use a hanging coins/3fly if you could do them with just 3 coins and have them as visual and magical as with a shell or extra coin?
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Mar 20, 2009 01:41AM)
***I could do this without a shell (and the whole routine for that matter). But this routine is so much cleaner with the gaff.***

Mark,

I read this as an answer to your question!

MMc
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Mar 22, 2009 05:09AM)
What about starting with, for example, a "coin to the spectator's hand" having them handling the 4 genuine coins (keeping the [ palmed) and then sneak in a gaff for the following effect. Their conviction is established that the coins are genuine. Especially if you use nice coin gaffs, their supposed value makes it that it doesn't cross people's mind that we would do anything damaging such precious pieces of silver (and they believe it's forbidden anyway).

Then "purist" is a self centered concept: we are true purists when we go for the cleanest and slickest illusion. We are not purists if we have to do contrived movements just for the satisfaction of doing sleight of hand. Our self image is not at stake, magic is at stake. Yes almost everything can be done with regular coins but at the expense of entertainment and magic (and only for ego satisfaction or easier pocket management...)

Marion is an exception here because he can do some (difficult) sleight of hand moves that are more direct than the gesture that would be required for using a gaff.

Mind you Marion is also using gaffs in certain occurrences as he is expressing himself and he is also smartly using coins of slightly different circumferences (the most basic gaff concept) to do cleaner sleight of hand.

Thus the direct aspect of method is one of the criteria (more than the abstract and arguable concept of purity).

I think that Eric Jones' long post wraps it up. We should be grateful to Eric and Marion (or Curtis Kam) for the quality of their handling of coins whether gaffed or not. We should also be grateful to David Neighbors and David Roth for their creativity with effects in mind (with or without gaffs) that helped all of us at one time or another. No one spoke of both Davids' work with the Nelson Downs gimmick. Maybe this would have constituted another part of the answer.
Message: Posted by: The Wizard of Hearts (Mar 22, 2009 11:14AM)
[quote]
On 2009-03-19 19:27, David Neighbors wrote:
Hi Mick,
Hay thanks man! I never been a Monster Donster Before! :)
[/quote]

Oh gawd. Does this mean I have to start kissing your ring every time I see you Dave?

"Don Dave", I like it!
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Mar 22, 2009 12:21PM)
It is more properly pronounced "Monstah Donstah" with a bit of South Boston or maybe Brooklyn inflection! AND, that would be "Donstah Dave" whose ring you'd be kissin!
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Mar 22, 2009 02:57PM)
Hay Rich,
That would be great! But I don't were a ring! :) Hard to coin magic with a ring on! :)
Message: Posted by: manreb (Mar 22, 2009 03:33PM)
This gets back to the old joke about the magician who discovers a genii. The magician is granted the ability to do trick by pure magic, no gaff, SOH, or apparatus. The magician says he wants to be able to change the color of a silk.

The point being no matter how simple the gimmick, extra something concealed the question is “what does it look like to the person viewing it.”

The ability to conceal an extra coin is the same as concealing a gaff. The ability to finish clean is in the ability of the magician to conceal, switch or dispose of the extra coin, gimmicked or not.

I believe that there is a place for gaffs and gimmicks in coin magic. For those who believe that pure SOH can produce the exact same effect as using a gaff under every situation I envy you. For those who entertain only using gaffs I admire you. For those of you who use both to produce the best of both worlds, IMHO you get what it is all about.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Mar 28, 2009 05:17PM)
The Magic community already has a "Godfather" with Vinny Marini. We'll need to find a better nickname to honor David Neighbors' creative genius
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Mar 28, 2009 05:41PM)
Dave is the Coinjurer....which really fits him well.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Mar 28, 2009 11:06PM)
Thanks Mike, Yea Marlo gave me that name around 35 or so years ago! I loved it the Min. He came up with it! :)
Message: Posted by: Ocha (Mar 29, 2009 03:58AM)
I like this thread, a lot of debate going on, so I'll jump right in.
IMHO SOH is a tool for a magician.
Gaffs are tools for magicians.

A magician who purposefully limits himself by refusing to use a tool because he can accomplish the same thing with Just SOH (with more effort, more movements, and less friendly angels) is limiting his magic as well as himself.

I drive a car to work, I could still get to work without the car,but why would I? And my friend the marathon runner scoffs at me for using a car when I could easily run the ten miles to work.

How do you get to work?

Gerald