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Topic: Please debate Oil and Water
Message: Posted by: impossible man (May 4, 2009 11:17AM)
It seems like there should be a thread already debating the merits of Oil and Water, but I couldn't find it in a search. If you know of one, could you post the link?

If not, I would like to read posts from the workers who like/dislike Oil and Water, and why.

Thanks,
Dean
Message: Posted by: noble1 (May 4, 2009 11:19AM)
Rene Lavand seems to be one of the only to get a good effect out of this beyond the trick.
Message: Posted by: Micky Carta (May 4, 2009 12:10PM)
I really enjoy this effect and the reaction of the audience.

I use my own "3 Phase"-routine with 3 black and 3 red cards and a (how I think) strong seperation at the end...
It's one of the effects that every spectator keep in his mind, cause its simple, clear and unbelievable (and you can perform it for children ;) )


Michael :)
Message: Posted by: Leo Reynolds Jr (May 4, 2009 02:53PM)
I'm hooked on Oil and Water routines
1.The audiences reaction.
2.The simple nature of them.
3.The visual aspect of seeing the cards go from mixed to unmixed make for a great effect.

Best
Leo Jr
Message: Posted by: Tom Dobrowolski (May 4, 2009 08:45PM)
I am a fan of the effect also. Rene Lavand's routine is of course the penultimate. The routine suffers from what a lot of magic routines do which is repetition. There needs to be a theatrical build and presentation. Check out this thread for some further thoughts covered in the manuscript we just published.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=308374&forum=218&5
Message: Posted by: pepka (May 5, 2009 12:39AM)
Oil and Water is one of my favorite tricks. The handling I use most often is by Mike Skinner in his book. I changed the 2nd phase and wrote my own presentation, but he has a great idea to end the routine.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (May 5, 2009 08:25AM)
Michael has a wonderful routine
check out his dvds tapestry of deception I berlive this is the one
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (May 5, 2009 12:57PM)
[quote]
On 2009-05-05 09:25, vinsmagic wrote:
Michael has a wonderful routine
check out his dvds tapestry of deception I berlive this is the one
[/quote]

I don't think it's SKINNER who has this set out. I believe it's Michael VINCENT...am I wrong?

Christopher
Message: Posted by: ekgdoc (May 5, 2009 02:33PM)
So far, not much of a debate. I really dislike the Oil and Water theme. It seems contrived and uninteresting to me. However, I love the magic in many O & W routines. I present O & W as a medical test in which I am checking to see if the spectator has red-black color blindness. This presents a logical motivation for them to keep track of the colors. This goes over well and probably gets the best reactions of anything I do.

EKGDOC
Message: Posted by: SolitarySoul (May 5, 2009 03:34PM)
Other than Rene Lavand, I'm not a fan of this trick... by itself.

However, Darwin Ortiz' "Vegas Shuffle" is a gambling demonstration that is, in fact, at its core an oil & water routine. This routine KILLS.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (May 5, 2009 11:55PM)
Try Walt Maddison's "The Sting" from Apocalypse.

Yes, yes I know, I am forever touting Apocalypse; can't help it: so many treasures there just waiting...

Vlad
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (May 6, 2009 01:27AM)
Some of you said Oil & Water gets best reaction, version of Oil & Water kills, but said not fond of Oil & Water at the same time. I am confused.

I don't like or dislike by subtleties, principles or methods. I like tricks which my audience likes.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: SolitarySoul (May 6, 2009 05:01AM)
[quote]
On 2009-05-06 02:27, Hideo Kato wrote:
Some of you said Oil & Water gets best reaction, version of Oil & Water kills, but said not fond of Oil & Water at the same time. I am confused.

I don't like or dislike by subtleties, principles or methods. I like tricks which my audience likes.

Hideo Kato
[/quote]

I can clarify my post... I don't typically like an oil & water routine that is presented as an oil and water routine - "the red and the black refuse to mix". It's just a plot, actually a presentation, that falls a little flat for me. (JMHO)

The Vegas Shuffle, which "kills", is presented as a gambling demonstration, instead of a typical oil & water effect. The performer demonstrates that a good card cheat can keep the red and black cards from mixing despite using more and more convincing shuffles in each phase. In the last phase, even the spectator helps mix the cards, yet when they're spread, the red & blacks are still separate.
Message: Posted by: ejohn (May 6, 2009 08:10PM)
I like Sean Bogunia's "Sorted Affair". It's easy, very magical, and in the kicker ending, the the whole deck has separated.
Message: Posted by: joseph (May 7, 2009 10:38AM)
I really like Anthony Owens' routine....Looks like real magic.. :) ...
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (May 7, 2009 11:50AM)
Joshua Jay has the nicest routine who isn't repetitive.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 8, 2009 06:39PM)
I think it's a decent premise, and there are good presentations. I do think that many performances take it too far, though, as with an amitious routine with too many phases.
Message: Posted by: Dennis (May 8, 2009 11:00PM)
My favorite comes from Apocalypse it's -

Richard Vollmer's(Spelling?) VERY NICE OIL AND WATER.
I've been using it for more years than I care to think.
It always kills...

It's quick,builds,and has a killer ending.

It's a three phase routine.

I involve the spec by having them place the reds between
the blacks during the second and third phases.

The little presentational hook I use is,
during the first and second phases I say...
"Notice a shake the cards, I don't flick them..."
and give the packet a little shake as a magic gesture.
with no further explanation as to what I mean by flicking.

When I get to the third phase I say...
"The reason I don't flick them is..."
Then I give the packet in my hand a little corner flick;
and go into the ending.

I remember when I first learned it (Twenty or more years ago!)
My mother sealed it with whose words we all wish to hear...
"...but, you didn't DO ANYTHING!!"

Check it out GREAT routine!

There's another one in Apocalypse, can't remember the name
(I'm pretty sure it's in the same issue as Phil Goldstein's
ABACUS) it uses three blue backed aces and three red backed
kings - the thing I remember most is I fooled the S%#T out of
myself learning the first phase.

Have Fun
Dennis
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 9, 2009 10:04PM)
I'd like to show you something amazing with the Joker
When you place it between these alternating pairs of cards it...
Wait a sec...
Hmmm (spreads face down packet - joker still in the middle
turns over top packet and displays all read, tables
turns over remaining cards and displays all black, tables
Okay, let's get the cards into position, red, black, red, joker, black, red, black okay.
what a moment and ...
hmmm (spreads packet) turns over middle card, still a joker.
Oh, right, the joker needs to be face up.
turns over top packet and shows all read plus the joker, tables


*
I hope you get the idea here
*
another approach is to use the joker as the means of sorting the cards (far less magical IMHO) where you finish the trick by putting the packet onto the deck then inserting the joker into the middle and viola, all sorted. (thanks hofzinser)

Thoughts, pies or non-sequitors?
Message: Posted by: edh (May 10, 2009 04:24PM)
Jonathan, that idea with the jokers is very nice. I like this approach to O&W.

Is this in print somewhere?

Thanks for contributing this.
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (May 10, 2009 04:52PM)
This is how I do it. Can't remember if this has been posted here before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-EiHtd8UxY

The source is documented in the video.

Oh, and in keeping with the initial poster's question:

Yes I like the trick.
Why . . . because the effect is clear and that is all too rare a thing, in card tricks.

KG
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 10, 2009 07:33PM)
Hi edh. glad you liked that partial sript. The approach comes from Jerry Deutsch's notion of perverse magic as he discusses it on the genii bbs with a new trick each month [url=http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=193202&fpart=1]here[/url]. He's been a champion for character based thinking in routine design for as long as I can remember. -Jon
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (May 10, 2009 08:46PM)
[quote]
On 2009-05-05 01:39, pepka wrote:
Oil and Water is one of my favorite tricks. The handling I use most often is by Mike Skinner in his book. I changed the 2nd phase and wrote my own presentation, but he has a great idea to end the routine.
[/quote]

I've posted this in depth elsewhere, but just a "credit police" note: The routine in the Skinner book is Aldo Colombini's, not Skinner's. Ray Grismer learned it in Europe and taught it to Skinner. The same routine appears in Aldo's book "Impact" which pre-dates the Skinner book. Ray told me personally that he learned it from a European magi who told him it was Aldo's. Ray lived in the same apartment bldg as Skinner, David Roth, Jeff Altman, and others. When he got home, he showed it to Skinner, who was impressed and begged Ray to teach it to him.
Message: Posted by: bobon (May 11, 2009 08:04AM)
I perform Ascanio's version.Simple and clear.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 17, 2009 01:06PM)
Any thoughts on taking the trick into a gaffed packet trick?

once you can start using dupes and sticking cards together you do have some handling options - though at the expense of being able to use a borrowed deck, take the cards from a deck, and needing to watch out for folks asking to see the cards for good reasons.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Owen (May 17, 2009 01:22PM)
I have a few handlings for my Ultimate Oil and Water which are gaffed, but which enable all the cards to be examined before and after. It'll be offered as a free bonus - along with another bonus handling by David Regal - to all purchasers in the near future.

Best,

Anthony Owen
Message: Posted by: bodybyfood (May 17, 2009 02:36PM)
The first time I was shown an Oil and Water effect, it wasn't really explained with any type of story. The guy just said here's a red card, here's a black card, now by looking at the backs, try to guess which row to put them in. I didn't really know what to expect and because of that, it made more of an impression me when he revealed I had "correctly" guessed all the cards!

Maybe this a different version of O&W than most of you are refering to, but I still feel that less is sometimes more. It's kind of like Christmas: it was magical when we were kids because we didn't know what to expect until the moment we unwraped the gift and found out what the present was; now, we basically get what we ask for or within 5 seconds of picking up and holding the present we've figured out what it is - it's no longer magical because we're looking for the ending. If you don't like the "oil not mixing with water" idea, try showing the effect with minimal patter. Make the spectator feel like he made the magic happen and you won't need to use a story to get a good reaction.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (May 17, 2009 05:17PM)
[quote]
On 2009-05-17 15:36, bodybyfood wrote:
The first time I was shown an Oil and Water effect, it wasn't really explained with any type of story. The guy just said here's a red card, here's a black card, now by looking at the backs, try to guess which row to put them in. I didn't really know what to expect and because of that, it made more of an impression me when he revealed I had "correctly" guessed all the cards!

Maybe this a different version of O&W than most of you are refering to, but I still feel that less is sometimes more. It's kind of like Christmas: it was magical when we were kids because we didn't know what to expect until the moment we unwraped the gift and found out what the present was; now, we basically get what we ask for or within 5 seconds of picking up and holding the present we've figured out what it is - it's no longer magical because we're looking for the ending. If you don't like the "oil not mixing with water" idea, try showing the effect with minimal patter. Make the spectator feel like he made the magic happen and you won't need to use a story to get a good reaction.
[/quote]

That sounds more like an Out of This World effect than an Oil and Water.
Message: Posted by: bodybyfood (May 17, 2009 08:28PM)
Oops, sorry. It is at least a similar storyline/principle though, right (I know the actual effects are different)?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 17, 2009 08:31PM)
In most people's shows, no.

However I can imagine using what you wrote as the patter for doing oil and water and having it work. The key to the handling would be to emphasize the fair dealdown, only talk about the shuffle and selections into two piles and pick up the action as "and when he picked up the cards I could see they really were all the reds and all the blacks".
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (May 17, 2009 08:39PM)
The premise is easy to understand by the audience and therefore the magic they see makes sense. I find that it is one of my audience's favorite effects based on feedback and years of experience. The one I do is in my book and called "Urokinase". Eight cards, no extras or gaffs, borrowed deck. Totally impromptu.

Larry
Message: Posted by: pepka (May 17, 2009 11:17PM)
[quote]
On 2009-05-10 21:46, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-05-05 01:39, pepka wrote:
Oil and Water is one of my favorite tricks. The handling I use most often is by Mike Skinner in his book. I changed the 2nd phase and wrote my own presentation, but he has a great idea to end the routine.
[/quote]

I've posted this in depth elsewhere, but just a "credit police" note: The routine in the Skinner book is Aldo Colombini's, not Skinner's. Ray Grismer learned it in Europe and taught it to Skinner. The same routine appears in Aldo's book "Impact" which pre-dates the Skinner book. Ray told me personally that he learned it from a European magi who told him it was Aldo's. Ray lived in the same apartment bldg as Skinner, David Roth, Jeff Altman, and others. When he got home, he showed it to Skinner, who was impressed and begged Ray to teach it to him.
[/quote]
I never knew that. Thanks Scott!
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (May 18, 2009 05:07AM)
A very good one is from Shigeo Futagawa (from Subtle card magic by Nick Trost).
With the 4 aces. Easy to do, to remember, and very well constructed.
Message: Posted by: swamy (May 19, 2009 09:08AM)
The effect "Matched Pair" by Tom Ransom is a nice eight card effect.
Message: Posted by: twistedace (May 19, 2009 10:48AM)
Juan Tamariz's has made me a believer in the routine. I have never liked oil and water, but his is perfect.
Message: Posted by: Cardician99 (May 30, 2009 03:31PM)
A very deceptive Oil & Water theme with a killer ending is: "Oil & Queens," by Roy Walton (Complete Walton, Vol. 1). Fast and to the point: 8 cards shown as mixed red/black. 4 dealt cleanly to table; 4 held.

4 held cards revealed to be all black. Although spectators are expecting all reds, tabled cards are turned over revealing instead the 4 Queens. No gaffs. Handling is very clean and effect easy to do.

(I've "tweaked" the routine (not handling) into a packet trick. If you ALREADY know "Oil & Queens" and would like a description, PM me.)
Message: Posted by: moualb (Jun 6, 2009 07:41PM)
I always thought that O&W theme goes well with the Follow the Leader theme :
so I do a 8 cards routine with 2 phases O&W and ends with FTT
Message: Posted by: Shawn74 (Jun 7, 2009 07:41PM)
I believe that construction and presentation of the Oil and Water effect are what can make it or break it, as was stated earlier it runs a lot of the risks of and Ambitious Cart Routine. I have seen a few where the effect just seems to go on and on and on, with the magician stating exactly what he's doing over and over and over. Routines like that tend to get under my skin. I feel that if an effect isn't what I call a "quick trick", the patter really needs to have a premise or story element to it in order to keep the spectators interested. Just MHO.

That being said I perform Guy Hollingworth's Oil and Water and have great success with it. There are only 2 phases to it and the patter I use involves my high school Science teacher and a passing grade.

Hope this is helpful

Shawn
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Jun 9, 2009 12:38PM)
[quote]
On 2009-05-30 16:31, Cardician99 wrote:
A very deceptive Oil & Water theme with a killer ending is: "Oil & Queens," by Roy Walton (Complete Walton, Vol. 1). Fast and to the point: 8 cards shown as mixed red/black. 4 dealt cleanly to table; 4 held.

4 held cards revealed to be all black. Although spectators are expecting all reds, tabled cards are turned over revealing instead the 4 Queens. No gaffs. Handling is very clean and effect easy to do.

(I've "tweaked" the routine (not handling) into a packet trick. If you ALREADY know "Oil & Queens" and would like a description, PM me.)
[/quote]




Very glad you mentioned this version. It's also in vol 6 dvd of Ammars card magic.
Message: Posted by: edh (Jun 9, 2009 08:43PM)
Has anyone ever tried Japanese Aces? It only uses the 4 Aces.

Also Derren Browns O&W in his Devil's Picture Book DVD is very nice.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Jun 10, 2009 12:28AM)
I do like Derren Brown's O&W but I prefer Dingle's which has an Oil & Queens kicker which I end up using to segue into Aronson's Under Her Spell.
Message: Posted by: Hassan (Jun 12, 2009 11:37AM)
@edh where can I find Japanese Aces effect ?
@ricardo carpenter Which volume exactly, and I think you mean "Subtle card creations".
Message: Posted by: sohaib (Jun 12, 2009 05:50PM)
I just started doing Aldo Colombini's Oil and Water from his The Essential Aldo Colombini DVDs. It's a fun routine!
Message: Posted by: Koolmagic114 (Jun 20, 2009 08:08PM)
Personally, I have just never gotten into this effect. I personally just never found it interesting. And I Gould not ever find a way to make myself care why the cards/colors seperated.

I tried a few routines but only found one I actually liked. Sadly it has been so long now I forgot who's it was. So I even feel bad putting a comment here. What I do remember liking about it was the fact it was quite easy to do. Letting me concentrat on the performance. And the fact that this version took you away from the "watch the colors seperate" (again... Yawn)

As some above mentioned, the repitition. Is what I always disliked about this effect.
Message: Posted by: magicmatt (Jun 24, 2009 10:59AM)
I have been performing Guy Hollingworth's Oil and Water for many years now and it always gets a strong reaction. It's clean and really not that difficult to perform. A plus with this routine is if you can get the special move down then you can move onto Waving the Aces which will knock the socks off of people.
Message: Posted by: (a)ndy (Jul 14, 2009 12:46PM)
I remember seeing someone perform a stage version of Oil and Water at the Blackpool Magical Championships probably about 15 years ago.

I can't remember his name but his act was themed around a farmer and his cards had sheep and cows on them. He performed it by mixing "Baaa"s and "Mooo"s.

The routine was really funny and the effect was a knock out.