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Topic: Little Man [Paul Harris Presents...]
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 7, 2009 04:50AM)
Paul Harris, Rod Whitlock and Mark Allen
(special thanks to Angelo Carbone)

Engineering and Product development
by Rod Whitlock

A LUMP OF CLAY COMES TO LIFE!

You bring out a small gift bag and pull out a standard container of kid's clay. You peel off the lid, pull out a lump of clay and let your audience freely squish, pull and play with it. You then help the audience mold the clay into a little man (or woman!) The only reason you help is to insure that his little proportions are correct.

YOUR HANDS ARE ALWAYS EMPTY. THERE'S NOTHING INSIDE THE CLAY!

A spectator then takes a final bit of clay and shapes it into a tiny clay heart. She warms the heart in her hands... and for a moment... she THINKS SHE MIGHT feel a tiny heart beat. She gently sticks the tiny clay heart onto Little Man's chest. You then stand the little guy on the flattened empty bag. Someone gently blows on his heart. Then a moment later...unbelievably... Little Man takes his first step!

YES, HE'S MOVING FORWARD AND ACTUALLY WALKING... ONE ASTONISHING STEP AT A TIME!

This is where you have to see the on-line demo to experience the devastating wonderfulness of it all. His entire clay body VISIBLY TURNS AND LURCHES FORWARD with each dramatic step. And not that you'd want to, but you could leave the room, go out for a burger, and Little Man would keep on walking! And after about 10 steps, when Little Man finally stops, anyone can immediately SQUISH HIM INTO A BALL OR TEAR HIM APART... AND THERE'S NOTHING TO FIND BUT A LUMP OF CLAY!

Incredibly Easy.

No switches, palming, steals, etc.

Your hands are always empty.

Empty bag and container can be freely handled by audience at end of effect.

Completely self-contained. Nothing attached to you or your clothes.

Perform completely surrounded in any lighting conditions

Re-sets in two to three minutes.

* Same lump of clay can be used over and over.

$300 (Complete with DVD and extra clay.)

===========

Seeing as the other topic has now been closed, I thought it might be wise to start a *new* thread for people who are genuinely interested in this effect, and any news, updates etc.

(The last thread was 'hijacked' by discussion that was perhaps a little 'off-topic' so if I could please ask that people try and keep things happy on this one - because whilst I enjoyed the conversation and chatter on the last one it seems that the Moderators weren't so keen ;-p)
Message: Posted by: nikola paris (Sep 7, 2009 08:05AM)
Sounds really great ! Hope it will be available soon... Another PH Miracle ! :)
Message: Posted by: Markymark (Sep 7, 2009 08:30AM)
I read the ad too hunty but there is nothing to talk about yet.
Message: Posted by: Judah Vee (Sep 7, 2009 08:39AM)
Yeah, considering this....

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=325690&forum=218&141

They locked it for a reason.....

-J-
Message: Posted by: Nico Zottos (Sep 7, 2009 11:37AM)
Maybe we can keep this one a little better on track?
Message: Posted by: Nat (Sep 7, 2009 12:05PM)
Two magician friends saw it at MagicLive and said it was terrific!
Nate

[quote]
On 2009-09-07 12:37, Nico Zottos wrote:
Maybe we can keep this one a little better on track?
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2009 12:23PM)
Can you make this tabletop Golem stop on a selected card like the Koornwinder car?
What happens when a child eats the "playdoh"?
What do you do for the two minute reset?
How portable is this?
What's the best way to cleanup?
Message: Posted by: Nico Zottos (Sep 7, 2009 12:30PM)
Jonathan, all in good fun but how bout we don't go back down the path to cause those that got the thread closed in the first place to come back. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2009 12:37PM)
Just how toxic is that "playdoh" and how much fuss it this thing to set up and reset?

Real performers need to know if the volunteer making the "heart" needs to rush to wash their hands before eating.

Now what sort of person would delete that post with the suggestion one could make the clay figure into a clown and activate it with a nose?

That path... well if you consider basic questions about safety and practicality a cause to exercise censorship then maybe there are other questions we need to be asking around here.

Remember what happened to the first guy who made a Golem?
Message: Posted by: mike storz (Sep 7, 2009 12:42PM)
Hi!

It's nice to see this thread get back on track. The two individuals who saw this live is there anyway to post your thoughts? Or if they are not members is there any way to get there thoughts on how it looked?

Thanks for starting a thread about this effect.

Mike :)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2009 12:49PM)
Yes, real curious - was this something that was done at a set-up table or walking up to a table? Who did the folks at the table react? What happened after?
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 7, 2009 12:49PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-07 13:42, mike storz wrote:
Hi!

It's nice to see this thread get back on track. The two individuals who saw this live is there anyway to post your thoughts? Or if they are not members is there any way to get there thoughts on how it looked?

Thanks for starting a thread about this effect.

Mike :)
[/quote]

YEAH - I'd really like to hear a first-hand report on this too. Just in terms of amount of movement and audience reaction more than anything...
Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Sep 7, 2009 02:28PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-07 13:05, briana wrote:
Two magician friends saw it at MagicLive and said it was terrific!
Nate

[quote]
On 2009-09-07 12:37, Nico Zottos wrote:
Maybe we can keep this one a little better on track?
[/quote]
[/quote]

I am curious where they saw this as they were saying at the Paul Harris booth they didn't have one available for demo yet. There was a bit of disappointment that they didn't have this there other than a flyer.
Message: Posted by: Exitmat (Sep 7, 2009 03:47PM)
They didn't have one to demo at the PHP booth at Magic Live.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Sep 7, 2009 05:20PM)
I think the rumor may be a bit of an exaggeration.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2009 06:18PM)
I thought the whole point of a rumor was to exaggerate.
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Sep 7, 2009 07:16PM)
So there aren't any demo videos anywhere yet?
Message: Posted by: puffinmonkey (Sep 7, 2009 08:01PM)
The demo looks UNREAL! lol It's hard to believe that it wasn't edited. Unless that demo was a fake.

-Alex
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2009 08:07PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-07 21:01, puffinmonkey wrote:
The demo looks UNREAL! lol It's hard to believe that it wasn't edited. Unless that demo was a fake.

-Alex
[/quote]

link?
Message: Posted by: mike storz (Sep 7, 2009 08:14PM)
I'm glad you asked because I wasn't sure if he was kidding around.

Mike :)
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Sep 8, 2009 07:39AM)
There is a demo where the spectator THINKS of a card. The cards are shuffled and spread on the table. The mlagician puts a little box on the table. Suddenly, the box opens from itself and a "little man" climbs out of the box. The little man walks along the spread of cards and stops on the thought of card !
The little man steps aside, makes a triple salto and picks up the card and shows the card to the spectator. Then he (the little man) torns the card in 4 pieces and restores the card in a magical way. He walks to the box, climbs in and close the lid of the box himself.
I could not believe it until I saw the demo.
Amazing. You must see this !
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 8, 2009 08:07AM)
I feel that you may not be taking this seriously ;)
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Sep 8, 2009 08:18AM)
Can you do it with a little dog instead? Can the little dog cook something instead of a card trick? Can the dog be inspected?
James


[quote]
On 2009-09-08 08:39, Waterloophai wrote:
There is a demo where the spectator THINKS of a card. The cards are shuffled and spread on the table. The mlagician puts a little box on the table. Suddenly, the box opens from itself and a "little man" climbs out of the box. The little man walks along the spread of cards and stops on the thought of card !
The little man steps aside, makes a triple salto and picks up the card and shows the card to the spectator. Then he (the little man) torns the card in 4 pieces and restores the card in a magical way. He walks to the box, climbs in and close the lid of the box himself.
I could not believe it until I saw the demo.
Amazing. You must see this !
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Sep 8, 2009 08:34AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-08 09:18, Xiqual wrote:
Can you do it with a little dog instead? Can the little dog cook something instead of a card trick? Can the dog be inspected?
James
[/quote]

They don't explain that in the demo. I doubt it very much. The dog wouldn't fit in the box.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 8, 2009 06:06PM)
Is there also a demo where you feed the playdoh to a child and they go into a trance and do perfect false shuffles and false deals for your ACAAN?

Where are the links?

Posted: Sep 8, 2009 7:09pm
What if you can only get four Cohani under the table chanting? Does the Golem move at all?
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Sep 8, 2009 10:45PM)
It depends on which volume of the Kabbalah you are using.
James

[quote]
On 2009-09-08 19:09, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
What if you can only get four Cohani under the table chanting? Does the Golem move at all?
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Vorezo (Sep 9, 2009 03:37PM)
I havent seen it myself but have heard bad things from well respected magicians... I cant wait to see it!
Message: Posted by: tomcards (Sep 9, 2009 06:10PM)
Vorezo (whoever you are),

Who were these "well respected magicians" and what did they say?


Tom Frame
Message: Posted by: nikola paris (Sep 9, 2009 06:28PM)
For sure, it will be one of the big "buzz" of the year !
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Sep 9, 2009 11:12PM)
What if you made the box really big, like table sized? Then you could just wear taller shoes and big clothes so no one would notice. The dog would fit inside, then jump out and cook a hot dog. Oh wait, what about a robot dog?
James

[quote]
On 2009-09-08 09:34, Waterloophai wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-09-08 09:18, Xiqual wrote:
Can you do it with a little dog instead? Can the little dog cook something instead of a card trick? Can the dog be inspected?
James
[/quote]

They don't explain that in the demo. I doubt it very much. The dog wouldn't fit in the box.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Sep 10, 2009 10:14AM)
It would be intersting to know who Vorezo is talking about. There was a rough prototype shown a couple of years ago, but the newest version hasn't been shown but to the people working on it.
Message: Posted by: slyhand (Sep 10, 2009 11:07AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-09 19:28, nikola paris wrote:
For sure, it will be one of the big "buzz" of the year !
[/quote]

Or the big "Bust".
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 10, 2009 12:25PM)
Well, I'm holding out on all speculation/discussion until someone hits with a demo or a first hand report.

I find a lot of people dismissing effects out of hand on here a little disconcerting to be honest. I'm willing to reserve judgement and just let the excitement remain for a while at least :)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Sep 10, 2009 12:55PM)
I've seen this in a dream, its all play-doh, you get a little man made out of it, and where the legs are, are two holes to poke your fingers through...people wont see that...
Message: Posted by: Roth (Sep 10, 2009 04:52PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-07 19:18, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
I thought the whole point of a rumor was to exaggerate.
[/quote]
A rare funny line, well said.
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Sep 11, 2009 02:22AM)
No one is dismissing it. I refuse to put down $300 and change for an effect that has no demo. I mean come on, it does sound pretty fantastic. Then again, most of the ads sound pretty fantastic too.
James

[quote]
On 2009-09-10 13:25, hunty wrote:
Well, I'm holding out on all speculation/discussion until someone hits with a demo or a first hand report.

I find a lot of people dismissing effects out of hand on here a little disconcerting to be honest. I'm willing to reserve judgement and just let the excitement remain for a while at least :)
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dave Devin (Sep 11, 2009 06:49AM)
If it ends up half as good as it reads.............I'm in!
Message: Posted by: ScottLeavitt (Sep 11, 2009 09:40AM)
Haven't I seen this before?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhczFRlBT2E
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Sep 11, 2009 10:20AM)
Silly Putty, Tricks are for kids!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 11, 2009 11:23PM)
I like the idea of a tabletop golem.
If the clay is toxic the item can't be performed near food.
If the setup/reset is significant that means it likely can't be done from table to table at parties.
Lack of clean answers on those matters leads me to wonder if it will wind up sitting on a coffee table at home where taking out some playdoh and then casually asking someone to wash their hands before eating any more snacks or before dinner just seems a bit limited IMHO.

As to our market today - I'm still waiting for a Collector's Workshop piece to show up on Antique Roadshow ;)
Message: Posted by: markmiller (Sep 11, 2009 11:34PM)
Am I alone in finding all the advance hype on every PH item to be nothing more than a tiresome marketing ploy?
Message: Posted by: Zachary (Sep 12, 2009 12:24AM)
[quote] Am I alone in finding all the advance hype on every PH item to be nothing more than a tiresome marketing ploy?[/quote] If it were only you and I in the same room... Indeed!
Message: Posted by: joseph (Sep 12, 2009 06:36AM)
Some items aren't released until at least 10 pages of "I can't wait" are logged... :) ...
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Sep 12, 2009 08:53AM)
Just to clarify a few points..the clay/putty used is completely non-toxic and is safe to use around food. The special clay leaves no color or residue on the skin and reset time is down to a minute.
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 12, 2009 02:15PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-12 09:53, Tom G wrote:
Just to clarify a few points..the clay/putty used is completely non-toxic and is safe to use around food. The special clay leaves no color or residue on the skin and reset time is down to a minute.
[/quote]

Good news on the reset time - thanks.

As for the toxicity of the putty, I honestly can't imagine anyone producing an effect that left you 'exposed' to the point of having to rescrub every time you finished a performance :)
Message: Posted by: magicmann (Sep 12, 2009 02:57PM)
Any idea when the demo will be ready.

Paul
Message: Posted by: wolfmaster (Sep 12, 2009 05:32PM)
I'm curious, this sounds too good to be true. And I hope it's really that good! It seems something different.
Message: Posted by: jeremysweiss (Sep 12, 2009 07:45PM)
[/quote]
As for the toxicity of the putty, I honestly can't imagine anyone producing an effect that left you 'exposed' to the point of having to rescrub every time you finished a performance :)
[/quote]

Really?

hypnoheat!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 12, 2009 10:14PM)
I'm worried about the audience. Kids grab. Adults go "that's nice" and head over to the chips and dip.
Message: Posted by: noble1 (Sep 13, 2009 03:15PM)
I sure any kid that eats the putty will weather it.
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 14, 2009 04:17AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-12 20:45, jeremysweiss wrote:
[/quote]
As for the toxicity of the putty, I honestly can't imagine anyone producing an effect that left you 'exposed' to the point of having to rescrub every time you finished a performance :)
[/quote]

Really?

hypnoheat!
[/quote]

I've genuinely never heard of hypnoheat before... But having done a little research.

Wow... : |
Message: Posted by: kamus (Sep 14, 2009 10:11AM)
If this boils down to a special material, then toy companies are going to grab this before long. Hopefully (assuming this thing works) the magician's skill has something to do with it. Farnkly it's hard to see how this thing could possibly work given the description but then again the description of OOTW sounds hard to believe too.

/idle speculation
Message: Posted by: tomacker (Sep 14, 2009 10:25AM)
Let's all just wait for a demo. Speculation will not lead us anywhere. But yeah, this sounds hard to believe.
Message: Posted by: kamus (Sep 14, 2009 12:17PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-14 11:25, tomacker wrote:
Speculation will not lead us anywhere.
[/quote]

Hey this the Magic Café- this forum would collapse without pointless speculation! ;-)
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Sep 14, 2009 03:00PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-14 05:17, hunty wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-09-12 20:45, jeremysweiss wrote:
[/quote]
As for the toxicity of the putty, I honestly can't imagine anyone producing an effect that left you 'exposed' to the point of having to rescrub every time you finished a performance :)
[/quote]


Really?

hypnoheat!
[/quote]

I've genuinely never heard of hypnoheat before... But having done a little research.

Wow... : |
[/quote]

Ah I loved hypno heat...of course that was pre internet days when you knew bugger all about what you were buying. I'm not even sure that the trick I bought even came with a warning.

I'm sure Paul Daniels also performed it on his TV show..or something very very similar.
Message: Posted by: nikola paris (Sep 14, 2009 04:01PM)
One thing is sure : this effect would be a best seller ! I prefer to wait longer and have a good product that would be really finished than having a "quickquickquick 'cause they wait" product ;)
Message: Posted by: Darius666 (Sep 14, 2009 04:15PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-14 16:00, Gilgamesh_The_Librarian wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-09-14 05:17, hunty wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-09-12 20:45, jeremysweiss wrote:
[/quote]
As for the toxicity of the putty, I honestly can't imagine anyone producing an effect that left you 'exposed' to the point of having to rescrub every time you finished a performance :)
[/quote]


Really?

hypnoheat!
[/quote]

I've genuinely never heard of hypnoheat before... But having done a little research.

Wow... : |
[/quote]

Ah I loved hypno heat...of course that was pre internet days when you knew bugger all about what you were buying. I'm not even sure that the trick I bought even came with a warning.

I'm sure Paul Daniels also performed it on his TV show..or something very very similar.
[/quote]

I know it's a little off topic but their was a safe version of hypno heat that Kaymar MAgic used to sell. Not sure how well it worked.

Darius
Message: Posted by: Russell Scoggin (Sep 14, 2009 05:31PM)
Hypno Heat did come with a warning in the instruction sheet for it. Also Hypno Heat was not meant to be handled nor even known about by the spectator. The substance was to be wrapped in the foil of a cigarette package before being placed into the hand of a spectator which would take the toxicity factor out of it when handled. (As long as it wasn't opened and handled by the spectator) But then again, that would have spoiled the whole effect. Anyway, back to the topic of "Little Man" earlier by Tom G., he said it was neither toxic nor a problem of staining hands or clothes.
Message: Posted by: Piz (Sep 15, 2009 02:48AM)
For some odd reason I'm starting to get interested in this (don't ask). I was gonna get a new digital Cam but I just might throw my loot down on this.

Hmmmmm?

I guess it's whatever comes first, a Demo for this or a sale on the camera I want (there was a sale yesterday and I'm kicking myself for not taking it! ARRRR!). :bg:
Message: Posted by: king2262 (Sep 15, 2009 11:21AM)
Does it really take this long to put a demo video together ?
Maybe it does :~
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 15, 2009 02:26PM)
It does if you have to get a plasticine Golem to hold the camera straight and do all of the editing himself!
Message: Posted by: Kakuna (Sep 16, 2009 08:17AM)
I think that for the price tag, we can expect something special here.
Message: Posted by: Sid Helkule (Sep 16, 2009 08:19AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-16 09:17, Kakuna wrote:
I think that for the price tag, we can expect something special here.
[/quote]

Hmmm... Really?

Luke
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Sep 16, 2009 09:08AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-16 09:19, shield wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-09-16 09:17, Kakuna wrote:
I think that for the price tag, we can expect something special here.
[/quote]

Hmmm... Really?

Luke

[/quote]

lol, perhaps some clay ?
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Sep 16, 2009 02:38PM)
Wonder whether if it uses just normal clay you could get creative and make a little clay Wallace or Gromit..that would make a bit of an impression.
Message: Posted by: hunty (Sep 16, 2009 02:43PM)
I'm kind of hoping I can go a little more 'adult' and 'voodoo' with it - but a lot depends on the kind of movement available I guess. Really hoping it'll be the perfect closer to a little 'strangeness' set I'm working on.

Excited by the (as yet unseen) possibilities...
Message: Posted by: Sid Helkule (Sep 17, 2009 04:23AM)
I'm hoping I can get it to mow my lawn.

Luke
Message: Posted by: Ken Dumm (Sep 18, 2009 03:07PM)
Just saw the ad in Genii...looks pretty awesome!

Can't wait to see the demo...

Ken
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Sep 18, 2009 08:16PM)
Can anyone who is working on this tell us the skill level involved in performing?

Also, how hard it to make the little man out of the clay? Are directions given on how to make the little man out of clay? I was terrible at play doe and clay when I was a kid, and even now, as I have no sculpting ability. (This is a serious question.)

Thanks

ACE
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 18, 2009 08:57PM)
I wanna know if it comes with that cute tiny hat as shown in the picture.
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Sep 18, 2009 09:47PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-18 21:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
I wanna know if it comes with that cute tiny hat as shown in the picture.
[/quote]

Unless the hat is made of the clay also.

ACE
Message: Posted by: edh (Sep 18, 2009 09:50PM)
Ace, little man cookie cutter will do the trick. :)
Message: Posted by: acesover (Sep 18, 2009 11:24PM)
Lets see now...You have to have a clay that has to have memory that will either expand or contract when cooling down as when you are holding and molding it it remains warm from your hands ,and remains dormant. Upon letting it go the clay either begins to expand or shrink upon cooling creating a walking movement for about 6 or 7 steps. The legs will be able to be peeled from a ball of clay but are really individual legs and not integral with the ball of clay. This is going to be expensive and it is not going to be ready for a while yet. Or it is real magic........

Just an opinion and we all know about opinions. OK time for bed.
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Sep 19, 2009 12:16AM)
In time the Rockies may crumble Gibraltar may tumble They're only made of clay, But our love is here to stay.
-Gershwin
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Sep 19, 2009 11:08PM)
I have some of that PK putty. Now to find a little man cookie cutter.

ACE
Message: Posted by: James FX (Sep 20, 2009 01:17PM)
I saw this ad again in the new Genii and it got my adrenaline pumping all over again; the whole premise just sounds AMAZING! So I quickly went to the PH site to view the promised on-line demo, only to find that there still isn't one?! :( The ad copy clearly states "...you have to see the on-line demo to experience the devastating wonderfulness of it all." But there is no on-line demo. The site still says "Demo will be posted as soon as it is available." Why wouldn't it be available by now? The site now also notes in bright green font: "**AT ANY TIME DURING THE PRE ORDER WAITING PROCESS, YOU CAN ASK FOR YOUR MONEY TO BE REFUNDED BACK TO YOU."

After all this time and still no demo for a $300 trick, my cold feet are now frostbitten, lol :lol: I'm holding off on this one until I can see what I'm buying.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 20, 2009 02:32PM)
Hey James, what do you think of the cute little hat and "magic dough" box?
Message: Posted by: James FX (Sep 20, 2009 05:02PM)
Hi Jonathan :) As a matter of fact I read your previous post in the middle of this page and had wondered that as well, if that little hat is supplied. I think the hat is essential to this effect because it adds personality and much needed character to what would otherwise appear to be blue blobs. The hat makes "him" lool like a "Little Man".

However I can't be certain that the hat is included because in the ad it appears to me that the hat has been computer generated. But then again I don't see one of those familiar disclaimers in this ad noting, "Cute tiny red hat NOT included." lol! So I believe that anyone purchasing this could reasonably expect to receive the hat too. However, the ad blatantly tells us that there is an online demo when there isn't one, so what do we really know anyhow? :P
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Sep 20, 2009 06:30PM)
There one real question that needs to be asked hasn't. I guess when it comes to misdirection that ad gets an 'a'.
Message: Posted by: Silvio (Sep 21, 2009 03:09AM)
It sounds just too good to be true, but hey, it's Paul Harris!! Btw, anyone knows when the demo is going to be up?
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Sep 23, 2009 01:28AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-16 15:38, Gilgamesh_The_Librarian wrote:
Wonder whether if it uses just normal clay you could get creative and make a little clay Wallace or Gromit..that would make a bit of an impression.
[/quote]

Talk to Dan White while he was in Hong Kong a few weeks ago about that.

Yes, they are just normal clay.
Message: Posted by: Jean-Luc.R. (Sep 23, 2009 06:14PM)
Paul Harris website UPDATE


LITTLE MAN (PH, Mark Allen, Rodney Whitlock)

All three of these guys are working around the clock to make sure this bad boy is perfect in every way. Working out the quality control issues in manufacturing have taken a bit longer than expected ... which is to be expected. Of course, Paul will not release this until every aspect is 100%.

When you see what goes into making the Little Man walk, you'll be blown away by the incredible engineering detail that goes into this thing. A little point not mentioned in the Little Man ad is that after taking seven steps or so, Little Man suddenly makes a left turn and stops! This means Little Man can walk by a row of cards (or other objects) and suddenly turns and stops at the spectator's card!

Another Big Little Man detail. There's a wonderful built-in delay, so once you set Little Man down, you can move away from the table so that you are nowhere near the action. You obviously have no control of anything here. The clay guy stays perfectly still for another ten seconds or so ... and then comes to life! (You can create the delay for any time between five and twenty-five seconds.)

Where's the demo? Yes, the promise of the demo in the ads was a bit premature. Paul admits that he really blew it on this one and that it will take at least two or three lifetimes of good works to cleanse his delayed-demo karma. He promises to never ever mention a demo until it's in the can and ready to go.

The demo will be shot at the same time as the rest of the DVD. Paul wants to shoot this with the exact same final version of Little Man that you'll be receiving. This production model should be ready in about ten days ... and then it's off to make the demo/DVD instruction. This always takes longer than expected...so best guess for a demo (and this is only a guess) is three to four weeks.

So when will the little guy be walking into your house? Current best guess is six to eight weeks. Will keep you posted as things progress.

Again, Paul wants to thank everyone for their saintly patience on this. And Little Man whispered that he'll be giving a special gift to everyone who pre-ordered him.

If anyone has any questions about anything, please email me at janet@paulharrispresents.com. It's always my pleasure to help you out any way I can.


Your Astonishment Goddess and Web Mistress,


Janet Harris
Message: Posted by: Dave Devin (Sep 23, 2009 06:27PM)
Looking forward to receiving mine...................
Message: Posted by: gamma105 (Sep 24, 2009 01:16AM)
Oh man... I wonder what the special gift will be.. that cute little hat? lol
Message: Posted by: James FX (Sep 26, 2009 11:01AM)
Great response from Janet (& Paul), thanks for posting Jean-Luc. It's absolutely commendable of them to address the demo issue so frankly and apologetically. And for them to reward our patience by including a special gift for those who pre-order, WOW! Now that's what I call superior customer service. Thank you Mr. Harris.

James
Message: Posted by: Michael Peterson (Sep 26, 2009 11:22AM)
Has anyone actually done the pre-order on this?

Mike
Message: Posted by: Piz (Sep 28, 2009 02:35PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-26 12:22, Michael Peterson wrote:
Has anyone actually done the pre-order on this?

Mike
[/quote]


I was about to Pre-Order a week ago but decided to go with the Samsung TL225 instead, a camera I really wanted, and desperately needed to film Magic for Promo purposes. Many features on that Camera that I needed, as I do not own any editing software.

Reading how long this may possibly be, I most likely will have the money to Pre-order within the next 6 weeks. I say if this is released no earlier then Thanksgiving (which is around the time I feel we shall expect release), I will surely have this Pre-Ordered before then.

This also depends on how well HandOut 500 and Titans Finger go for me, if they ROCK I will have no hesitation on my Pre-Order of LittleMan.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Sep 30, 2009 06:08PM)
If this is as incredible as it sounds, I am saving and scrimping. An effect like this is in the stratosphere of magic effects. Imagine the jaws dropping? Imagine the INSTANT reputation making power of such a creation? It staggers the imagination.

NOW, if only Paul could find a way to make the little guy SPEAK............
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Sep 30, 2009 07:09PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-30 19:08, daffydoug wrote:
NOW, if only Paul could find a way to make the little guy SPEAK............
[/quote]

Imagine that.
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Sep 30, 2009 08:02PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-30 20:09, Eddie Garland wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-09-30 19:08, daffydoug wrote:
NOW, if only Paul could find a way to make the little guy SPEAK............
[/quote]

Imagine that.
[/quote]

Haha..good one vent guy. My roommate peeked over my shoulder and read the title of the thread. When I explained to him the general effect he said, no ^*&^@ way! Then he said, m*agnets or th*reads? I said no. Gentlemen, muggles know about our methods. lol..
Message: Posted by: nikola paris (Oct 1, 2009 02:55AM)
Will it be as good as it sounds ? Maybe, I hope... But one thing is sure : Paul Harris is one of the very few magicians who show us the way... and say us :it is possible to find new effects ! To put magic magic one step further (whatever the size of the step is) and it is very important for me, and it is a very good thing for magic...
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Oct 1, 2009 05:33AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-30 20:09, Eddie Garland wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-09-30 19:08, daffydoug wrote:
NOW, if only Paul could find a way to make the little guy SPEAK............
[/quote]

Imagine that.
[/quote]

I do......
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Oct 9, 2009 12:17PM)
Does anyone have any further info or know the release date of this item?
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 9, 2009 01:38PM)
Probably :kermit:
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Oct 9, 2009 02:20PM)
Aaarggh!!
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Oct 10, 2009 09:48PM)
I would perform this to Meditation from Massenet's Thais.

Actually have a guy make up a girl and have a girl put the heart on...
The figure starts walking...in a crystal glass box...Box gets covered shortly with a silk foulard...The clay figure turned into a beautiful, grown, female ballerina...Magician dances with the Ballerina...she pushes him away...Magician covers her with the foulard, she disappears and he holds again...the clay figure that is handed to the two audience members for examination.

I would even pay $1000 for little man. $300 is not enough to keep it away from youtube exposure.
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Oct 10, 2009 10:39PM)
Beautiful Silvio!
You don't even need Little man for that. Just make the clay ballerina and do the rest as stated.
James

[quote]
On 2009-10-10 22:48, Silvio Solaris wrote:
I would perform this to Meditation from Massenet's Thais.

Actually have a guy make up a girl and have a girl put the heart on...
The figure starts walking...in a crystal glass box...Box gets covered shortly with a silk foulard...The clay figure turned into a beautiful, grown, female ballerina...Magician dances with the Ballerina...she pushes him away...Magician covers her with the foulard, she disappears and he holds again...the clay figure that is handed to the two audience members for examination.

I would even pay $1000 for little man. $300 is not enough to keep it away from youtube exposure.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Zachary (Oct 19, 2009 09:49PM)
Here's the latest on Little Bro...

[quote]
10/12/09 UPDATE ON RELEASES
Posted at 07:58 PM on October 12, 2009

Hello Everyone!



Here is my latest update concerning the releases.


Little Man:


All the literally hundreds of manufacturing details on the little clay guy are just about wrapped up. Hoping for December release. The demo is still at least a month away. Yep, another busted "dead line" in the name of Little Man perfection. He's warming up with little push ups and leg stretches to get ready for his first public walk.


In a nut shell: Paul is pushing every available button to get everything finished as quickly as possible. But, of course, he will not sign off on anything until he's satisfied with all aspects of the effect. Feel free to make disparaging remarks about his product-release schedule guessing skills. I'm putting them all into a special file and will present them to Paul as a little gift.

So there we have it yet again.

As always, Paul and I deeply appreciate your relentless patience on all of this. Strip is already out the door.

Hand out 500 is about a week a way.

Two down and two to go!

Will post again as soon as we have some actual solid release dates that you can count on.

Please contact me if you have any other questions about anything!


Janet Harris


(Paul Harris Presents Web Mistress and Astonishment Goddess)
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: James FX (Oct 20, 2009 11:07AM)
:no:
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Oct 20, 2009 11:17AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-20 12:07, James FX wrote:
:no:
[/quote]

I know. I would love to have this one for my intense Halloween act. Spectator makes a Voodoo clay doll.... ;)
Message: Posted by: SeanScottMagic (Oct 20, 2009 11:32AM)
Looking forward to the release. I think I found the promo:

http://www.videosift.com/video/AWESOME-claymation-Kenna-Hell-Bent

Enjoy,
Sean
Message: Posted by: James FX (Oct 22, 2009 06:10PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-20 12:17, Silvio Solaris wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-20 12:07, James FX wrote:
:no:
[/quote]

I know. I would love to have this one for my intense Halloween act. Spectator makes a Voodoo clay doll.... ;)
[/quote]

Well Silvio, there's always NEXT Halloween. This may be ready then :)
Message: Posted by: Rpascual (Oct 23, 2009 07:32AM)
I find this to be adverrtised to early. I think that was a bad decision.
Message: Posted by: cardbiker (Oct 23, 2009 08:26AM)
Latest release date 1st April 2010
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Oct 23, 2009 12:26PM)
:arg:
Message: Posted by: calexa (Nov 6, 2009 02:54AM)
Pre-order it today from Hocus-Pocus.

Carsten
Message: Posted by: Exitmat (Nov 7, 2009 11:43PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-23 09:26, cardbiker wrote:
Latest release date 1st April 2010
[/quote]
Where did you hear that?
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Nov 7, 2009 11:54PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-23 09:26, cardbiker wrote:
Latest release date 1st April 2010
[/quote]


"Hoping for December release." From Janet's blog.
Message: Posted by: The great Gumbini (Nov 8, 2009 09:54PM)
Well all I can say is if this thing is good it may be one small step for our clay friend---but it is one giant leap for magic!


Good magic to all,


Eric
Message: Posted by: Havens (Nov 19, 2009 02:44AM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-24 02:16, gamma105 wrote:
Oh man... I wonder what the special gift will be.. that cute little hat? lol
[/quote]

LOL! Best post by far.

Still, I'm so tempted to pre-order in my ever ending hunt for the holy grail. The only bit that worries me is the plastic bag, though I assume it has a dual purpose - as well a Little Man having to walk on it, you'll also need to shove him in it and suffocate him after the trick, before throwing him in the canal.

Remember "A Little Man is not just for Christmas"
Message: Posted by: Cabrera (Nov 20, 2009 01:17AM)
I'll take ten! That way I can apply for social security numbers and deduct more dependents.
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Nov 20, 2009 01:53PM)
Hello everyone

Posted on the other Little Man thread, but wanted you to see it here, too.
It's hard for me to read some of the negative things posted here but I can certainly sympathize with you. It's been a very long wait for Little Man and Paul admits it was a mistake to release this until it was in the warehouse and ready to ship.

Some of you mentioned hearing about this not being real or not working. A year or so ago there was a rough model that was being shown around that had a lot of things that needed to be refined. Over the year all of the issues have been resolved... the final version of the effect you receive will be perfect in every aspect. Of course, my brother is not going to ruin his reputation by releasing an expensive item that doesn't work.

Will have a rough home-made demo up in a few weeks. Hope that this puts the rumors to rest and gives you all reason to be happy and glad about the coming release of this truly brilliant piece of astonishment.

Janet Harris a.k.a. The Astonishment Goddess
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 6, 2009 11:20AM)
Well, it's been a few weeks, Still can't fully understand what could be taking sooo long to make a rough demo of a product that you say is now functional. Your last post you state

"All the literally hundreds of manufacturing details on the little clay guy are just about wrapped up. Hoping for December release. The demo is still at least a month away. Yep, another busted "dead line" in the name of Little Man perfection. He's warming up with little push ups and leg stretches to get ready for his first public walk."

It's now over a month since you posted that. Yes, another busted deadline right? On the other thread you said that a demo was a few weeks away. You posted that comment I think Nov, 20. You told us the model was working and functioning. How long does it actually take to put a quick rough demo together? Seriously!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 6, 2009 11:29AM)
How about the heart in that image - is that real and just perfectly lit or is something else amiss here? All CGI? A prank like that torn and restored card offering after the David Copperfield special?

IMHO one of the things Paul Harris represented was an integrity of practical works - that what was offered in the books could be prepared economically and performed in the real world. The coin spinning between two coins was understood as a sort of juggling challenge and not a work to perform.

So how does this latest item compare to the chocolate coin, reset and the rest of what's in those old books full of goodies that bear his name?
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Dec 6, 2009 06:03PM)
Hello Everyone,

A little update on Little Man. The demo is almost finished, and I will post it
as soon as I have it. Also a few performance questions have been raised, so
wanted you to know there are no restrictions on performing Little Man. Works on any flat table, any lighting, no angle issues. You just walk up to any flat table, floor, etc., with the bag and you're set to go. No body hook ups, exposed threads, etc.
The effect from start to finish is completely self contained.
Thank you again for your extreme patience,
Janet
Message: Posted by: gitty (Dec 6, 2009 06:50PM)
It seems that Christmas is coming earlier this year ... the demo is almost finished!!!!!

Janet, thanks for the update!
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Dec 6, 2009 07:47PM)
Looks like the pitchforks and torches may be put away soon. Great news. ;)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 6, 2009 07:52PM)
Seeing is believing - here's hoping for the best.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 6, 2009 09:35PM)
Hoping indeed. Am I the only one who is not terminally excited over this? I just can't see the magic. Seems more like techy-tricky than magic. With what is out there today, I can make a helicopter come into the room and land on a specs head... make butterflies emerge from scraps of torn newspaper... bring flies to life... etc. etc. etc. ... unless this little guy is going to do a kung fu form how is it going to impress today's juandiced audiences...???
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 6, 2009 10:03PM)
Correction of typo ... "jaundiced"...
Message: Posted by: Havens (Dec 8, 2009 05:10AM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-06 22:35, mandarin wrote:
Hoping indeed. Am I the only one who is not terminally excited over this? I just can't see the magic. Seems more like techy-tricky than magic. With what is out there today, I can make a helicopter come into the room and land on a specs head... make butterflies emerge from scraps of torn newspaper... bring flies to life... etc. etc. etc. ... unless this little guy is going to do a kung fu form how is it going to impress today's juandiced audiences...???
[/quote]

This is the kind of simple magic that the crowds I play to would love. I've often found that bigger isn't always better and that the ultimate reputation making trick simply isn't out there. It's about your whole act and if this ingredient suits what you do then it could be a great effect.

I've pre-ordered and am hoping I won't have to cancel when the demo's finally released.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Dec 11, 2009 02:59PM)
If this looks like the description, I would rather pay 3000 for this if its that good...
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Dec 11, 2009 03:44PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-11 15:59, iamslow wrote:
If this looks like the description, I would rather pay 3000 for this if its that good...
[/quote]

That means I can buy 2, sell you one and still be in profit by 2400 - Thumb Tips in my opinion are vastly vastly underpriced - could sell you one of my Vernets for , oh say the price of a holiday home in Florida.

PayPal accepted.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 24, 2009 10:32AM)
Wow, this thread hasn't been locked! Maybe there is still a chance for the little guy.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 24, 2009 12:16PM)
I'm thinking... something to do with fruitcake :) make little men.

It was in the back of the fridge so long it came to life.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 24, 2009 01:03PM)
Little Man has left the building.
Message: Posted by: lebowski (Dec 24, 2009 01:57PM)
But he was never here.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 24, 2009 04:36PM)
Yay, but just think how great the rough demo is going to be, especially after over three months in production of it.
:)

Merry Christmas everyone!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Muggle (Dec 25, 2009 01:34AM)
It's not Little Man, but a rough [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1T9d1vKjnM&feature=related]demo[/url] of a little clay man has been found in time for Christmas. Enjoy!
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Dec 25, 2009 06:11AM)
Here the version for $1,000.00. He'll disappear at the end. You can do it in short sleeves. No threads, pulls, magnets or any kind of gimmicks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mbkwn7QG0U&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Just kidding...Here is the video of the already upgraded version of Little Man. All pre-orders are $30,000.00 from now on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IFzcj4wnvQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 25, 2009 09:29AM)
I am pumped we can still talk about John Dough! This calls for a haiku!

This thread is NOT locked!
All I wanted for Christmas
Was John Dough demo!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 25, 2009 09:58PM)
But my thread is gone!
Much like a thief in the night.
Clay heels little man?
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Dec 26, 2009 10:14AM)
Seems to me that threads about things which do not yet exist will always, given time, devolve into what we saw in the other thread - either that or exposure.

But when I mentioned this months ago I was told to buzz off, that having threads to discuss things that don't exist was not only fun but good for magic. I mean, it's fun to ask everyday if there's a demo, right?

Apparently that theory did not hold.

It's the nature of the beast. Discussing products before they are released can only accomplish two things: 1)potential exposure and 2)anxiety and anticipation for the time of release. When that time is delayed, we get what we got.

So, have they pulled the plug?
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 26, 2009 12:38PM)
It's still the Christmas holiday and I will try to be kind. However, the biggest mistake was having a certain person come on here and pass off misleading info just to keep the buzz going.

We were apparently not getting correct info, and in fact being lead on to believe that something was close to being finished. To have someone come on here and repeatedly say that a rough demo was in the works and would be ready soon, only to wait three months later and still have no rough demo is proof enough that the information we have been given is false.

There are obviously problems happening behind the scenes that we are not aware of. In fact, whatever problems they are having are quite frankly none of our business. But, misleading us with false infomation is our business, even if we did not pre-order. It is disrespectful and unethical to anyone who has shown an interrest in the product.

Remember, the hype and advertising was started by Paul Harris Productions. Paul himself knew exactly what stage they were in when they started to market the crap out of "Little Man". Paul apparently was passing messages to his sister for her to relay to us here. If she was just doing what her brother was asking, then I have no issue with her. It's not her fault for being caught in the middle.

Maybe Paul should speak for himself. Come clean to what is going on. It would finally settle the storm that has been brewing for several months now.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Dec 26, 2009 12:59PM)
How about buying a midget and covering it in Play-Doh?
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 26, 2009 01:23PM)
You know what time it is...! HAIKU TIME!

We ask for the truth
Tell us the scoop, good or bad
Paul, please post SOME news
Message: Posted by: James FX (Dec 26, 2009 01:54PM)
Right on :thumbsup: It's time for another update from Janet or maybe even from Paul himself. He can squelch our concerns *instantaneously* by providing an explanation for the latest delay along with his revised ETA. Not unreasonable.
Message: Posted by: Mediocre the Great (Dec 26, 2009 04:19PM)
While we're waiting for Pual to release his effect, I suggest we have a "little man reverse engineering contest" where we try to accomplish the effect using methods of our own design. First person to post a believable YouTube video wins.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 26, 2009 07:56PM)
Wins what?
Message: Posted by: Amiable (Dec 26, 2009 10:13PM)
Wins $3000 from iamslow :)
Message: Posted by: Mediocre the Great (Dec 26, 2009 10:41PM)
You win by having a working "little man" before December of 2011. You win the admiration and respect of everyone here on The Magic Café! And... a free toaster!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 26, 2009 10:59PM)
Okay. You got me with free toaster. :) I don't have to pre-order anything though do I?
Message: Posted by: Jv (Dec 26, 2009 11:21PM)
Ok, I'm in!

I already have a few good ideas! :cool:
Message: Posted by: enceptions (Dec 27, 2009 10:34AM)
You'll notice that I haven't perfected the moving or walking legs....it seems he just slides across the table, but I think it's still pretty good. You can declare a winner and send me the toaster now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhczFRlBT2E
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 27, 2009 10:42AM)
Looks good to me, but what are the angle restrictions? And, can you give the clay away afterwards? (lol)
Message: Posted by: Kevinr (Dec 28, 2009 11:05AM)
Its states at the bottom of the link (in green type) that it will be released in October. So that's October 2010... 10 months away.

You guys need to wait.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 28, 2009 11:12AM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-28 12:05, Kevinr wrote:
Its states at the bottom of the link (in green type) that it will be released in October. So that's October 2010... 10 months away.

You guys need to wait.
[/quote]

what link?
Message: Posted by: Kevinr (Dec 28, 2009 11:19AM)
Sorry here is the link.

http://paulharrispresents.webs.com/apps/webstore/products/show/834064

Its states October.. So that's about 10 months away..

Also I think we need to understand this is Paul Harris! Not some one trick wonder kid.. PH is a legend in our industry so lets just stop posting and wait for it to come out.

Here is a video of the one and only Paul Harris talking about Little Man in details and also Titans Finger. He is not joking with the magic community its the real deal. Just wait for it to come out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAR7S_R-cYk
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 28, 2009 11:26AM)
That was October 09 (as in two months ago).

Also, all this focus on Paul Harris is probably misplaced. Yes, he put his name on the product, but the guy who's pulling his hair out right now trying to get everything to work is Rod Whitlock, the creator and engineer of the effect.

In other words, Paul doesn't really have anything to do with the mechanics of why things are taking so long, and in fact those very mechanics are probably something PH is waiting on with just as baited breath as some here are.
Message: Posted by: Kevinr (Dec 28, 2009 11:36AM)
Yes but the video interview is clearly compelling Paul has seen it.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 28, 2009 12:22PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-28 12:26, silverking wrote:
That was October 09 (as in two months ago).

Also, all this focus on Paul Harris is probably misplaced. Yes, he put his name on the product, but the guy who's pulling his hair out right now trying to get everything to work is Rod Whitlock, the creator and engineer of the effect.

In other words, Paul doesn't really have anything to do with the mechanics of why things are taking so long, and in fact those very mechanics are probably something PH is waiting on with just as baited breath as some here are.
[/quote]

That's right. The October date was for 2009 not 2010. There are obviously problems with the machanics of "Little Man" that we are not aware of. Despite the claims that the prototype model is working, I believe by opinion that there maybe still some issues that need to be fixed before a proper demo can be made. Paul would never (IMO) put his name on something that was just a pipe dream.

A few people had seen the original prototype and admitted that it didn't look very impressive. Janet herself has stated that the prototype needed more work. However, we have also been told a lot of things that only raises more questions. Apparently the prototype was fixed and working as described in the ads,(according to Janet).

Folks have to remember that discussions about "Little Man" began when Paul Harris Productions started to market it. We are very much permitted to talk about it as much as we want, no matter what someone may think. Although I respect everyone's opinion, having someone try and tell us that we shouldn't be discussing it and then discussing it themselves by posting links and making comments is... :)

Posted: Dec 28, 2009 2:57pm
I thought this was interresting. This is the rules for this forum.

"Latest and Greatest? - FORUM RULES

OVERVIEW:

It's inevitable that not a week goes by that we don't hear about the next great trick, book or DVD that is about to be released into our magic community. Naturally, we are curious and usually have a question or two floating around in the back of our collective heads. Given all that, It is perfectly normal that we can easily imagine what such a product might be like, and what it might do to improve our own magic performances. But, until the item is actually obatainable for purchase, we can only use our imaginations and speculate.

That is the purpose of this forum. To provide a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question...

FORUM RULES & GUIDELINES:

Curious about an upcoming product? This is the forum to post your thoughts. THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR REVIEWS. Reviews imply that you actually own and have used the trick, read the book or watched the DVD. Such posts should be made in the appropriate forum located in our The Good, the Bad, and the Garbage category. This forum is all about hype and speculation - nothing more, nothing less.

SPECULATION -VS- EXPOSURE:

It is , after all, only natural to speculate the possible method to a new trick or effect. Comments as to possibilities of a method are just that - Possibilities. One person may say; "I think it might use a piece of velcro" while another may comment; "No, it probably uses a magnet". Either scenario is okay.

However, If someone knows for a fact what the method is and posts it, then we have exposure and the post will be deleted with NO EXPLANATION given.

Finally, those individuals who come to this forum expecting to receive free advertising, think again. Obvious commercial posts (e.g, Now taking pre-orders, Our new product will ship on ..., We are offering a special if you order now, I accept PayPal, etc) will be removed and the offending member may be banned at the descretion of management. You have been warned. For complete details concerning our advertising polices, Click here!. Happy posting."


What I find interresting is that Janet used this forum to post the pre-orders ad and contest for the limited edition version of "Little Man", as well as keeping us updated on when the product would be shipped, breaking all three rules. (lol) I suppose when you have a big reputation, you also become above the rules and regulations as the thread was only locked and not removed.

(no criticism intended with my post. I just found it quite interresting, and thought it was worth mentioning.)
Message: Posted by: MattSconce (Dec 28, 2009 03:35PM)
Wow, even after the controversy and all...if this does what it is advertised as doing...It will be MINE! Mwa Ha Ha! The Little Man will walk forth! Perhaps I will have it combined with Power Word: Fall. The Little man walks forth then suddenly turns and bam! the pen he has turned toward falls over. I guess that would be a Jedi Little Man. Really the possibilities are endless. I really hope this turns out to be worth the wait as it sounds AMAZING!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 28, 2009 04:07PM)
I believe eventually it will do what it's claimed to be able to do.

That sounds like a great idea Matt. I liiiike it! :)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 28, 2009 08:24PM)
Thanks for the post, Dan. It helps to review the purpose of the forum...
Message: Posted by: Mediocre the Great (Dec 28, 2009 08:33PM)
After all this hype, I think it's fair to say that the little man's going to have to walk on water! Seriously, as a magic consumer, I think the long lead time from hype to delivery is unacceptable... I don't care if it IS the Paul Harris. I think this is a disgraceful marketing tactic, be it on purpose or not. This is just MY opinion. Paul, if you're reading this... this potential customer is really turned off by the way you're marketing this product.
Message: Posted by: mike storz (Dec 28, 2009 09:28PM)
Unfortunately, I lost interest in this one.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Dec 28, 2009 11:54PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-28 22:28, mike storz wrote:
Unfortunately, I lost interest in this one.
[/quote]
and yet... here you are.
Message: Posted by: Mediocre the Great (Dec 29, 2009 09:54AM)
This is a like gawking at an accident scene.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Dec 29, 2009 10:51AM)
You say that like it's a bad thing
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 29, 2009 01:26PM)
The last few posts are great! I sure hope Paul is reading this!

I agree with the accident scene comment, we are like onlookers that just can't go past this like we should...

Haiku time? Mandarin...help me out!

We have been deceievd
Yet we can't seem to let go
We need Dr. Phil

Fred Narlo
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 29, 2009 03:29PM)
Magicians of cards
plan not to invoke products
having feet of clay
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Dec 29, 2009 08:01PM)
First of all, I'm guessing that this is out of Paul's control. Rodney Whitlock is involved, and Paul or Janet can't very well post that the hold up is due to Rodney.

Second, it's very unfair to criticize Janet. She's new to the game and is only helping out her brother.

Third, I believe that this is Paul's first solo business venture. He has always relied on others to handle the marketing and business side of things, so I think every one should cut him some slack.

I saw a recent interview with him, and he sounded a little disenchanted with the whole thing. In fact, he said he would never talk about any upcoming projects again because he doesn't want to have to answer the inevitable question, "When is it coming out?"

Granted, this was advertised way too early. But, why is everyone being so mean? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Paul's intention to tease everyone with something that wasn't ready for prime time.

Robert
Message: Posted by: Mediocre the Great (Dec 29, 2009 10:03PM)
My intention is not to be mean, but just voicing an honest compliant about how I feel about his marketing. If Paul's having problems I would suggest he let us (his loyal customers) know what's going on. I'd kindly cut him some slack if I knew what was going on. Paul, please, just let us know.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 29, 2009 10:52PM)
OK, Fred, I'm in...

Haiku us, P.H.
And ease our minds with the truth.
You can set us free...
Message: Posted by: The great Gumbini (Dec 29, 2009 11:24PM)
As far as "marketing" is concerned---this is a dream come true! All that really has happened so far is an announcement of a fantastic effect that has not yet come to pass. Pre-orders were taken with the promise of a refund (I wonder how many have asked for their money back?) and I have not heard any complaints of anyone asking for and not receiving their money back. Yes a date was set and it came and went with no product yet---in real life this happens---actually a lot. Now back to the "marketing" aspect of this. Page after page after page has been written concerning this effect by people who are interested in it. It has held our attention for quite some time now and continues to do so. "Marketing" was invented for this very reason. To get the product out there with recognition and to cause a certain "hunger" within people for that product. Now I know PH and his sister DID NOT intend for this to happen, but it has. The truth is had this effect come out on time it would by now be a thing of the past. Yes people would still write about a few experiances with Little Man but soon that would fade too. Look at CSI (I love this effect) as soon as it was released some liked it some didn't ---there were some stories shared and then---bye bye. I still use CSI (alot) and still amaze people with it. But there is only so much you can say about something. But Little Man is being talked about DAILY and why? Because we are waiting for his arrival. Now you may say this is negative marketing to which I would perhaps agree---however, when all is said and done, if Little Man walks and we can understand what may have taken so long we WILL buy it and big time. In fact I bet you could not throw a clay stone without hitting a Little Man in the head somewhere---there will be that many sold. But ONLY if it's good. But this delay has kept Little Man on the pages of the Café and in our thoughts. And anyone who knows about Marketing knows that this is in the end a good thing.


Good magic to all,


Eric
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 30, 2009 12:22AM)
I totally hear what you are saying Robert M. But, I do believe that most of us ARE giving Paul Harris some slack, but that doesn't excuse the infomation that is being past on to us by Janet. Janet has stated that she is in contact with Paul almost everday. So, the information she is giving us can be assumed comes from Paul directly.

We were told that the prototype was working and that a demo was almost finished. Even though she also said that she would post the demo within a few weeks, that was almost two months ago. She assured us that everything was fine and we would see a rough demo which was almost completed very soon.

First the marketing was in question, and now the information that is being fed to us is in question. Who is responsable for the information that is being given to us? Janet? Paul Harris? Rodney Whitlock? I don't blame Janet because she is only passing on information that is being given to her. That information as we now can see no longer holds any wieght to it.

Paul Harris's name is all over this, not Janet's nor Rodney Whitlock's. Paul needs to speak for himself. However, for whatever reason, Paul chooses not to speak for himself but have his sister start a thread promoting a contest and asking for pre-orders while assuring everyone that all is well. We know that all is not well, which only raises more questions. Are we being lied to? Does a working prototype of "Little Man" actually exist? Is there a demo actually in the works? Will "Little Man" ever live up to the hype?

It's not an unusual thing for people to start seriously doubting at this point. It has been a long pointless road filled with broken promises and deadlines. People are starting to loose interrest, some are getting upset, while some are loosing respect for Paul Harris. Can you blame them?

I am the kind of guy who despite the fact that I'm a christian, doesn't try to pretend to be someone that I'm not, or act better than I am. I am prone to say things that I may later regret saying, I will sometimes make mistakes that I will have to apologize later for. But! I will always take responsibility for it.

Paul Harris needs to take responsibility.


Happy New Years everyone!
Message: Posted by: edh (Dec 30, 2009 12:28AM)
...and a prosperous year to all.
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Dec 30, 2009 10:41AM)
I have some swamp land in Florida that some of you may be interested in buying.
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 30, 2009 10:54AM)
It's as simple as this...things get delayed in production, setbacks happen unexpectedly and situations come up. We all are merciful and intelligent enough to know this. Paul can do some rather "astonishing" stuff but we all know he REALLY can't tell the future.

The problem isn't solely with the time delay of this product or it's long promised demo, it's the fact the guy who's name is all over it and is the "celebrity" behind it isn't giving us any kind of explanation!

Again, it's not the fact that something unexpected has happened obviously to delay the sceduling, it's the fact that NOBODY of any significance towards this product has said a word in a good while. Anyone who cared about their name (or their brother's name) would say something by now.

Heck, even if Paul got on here and said "Due to blah, blah, blah, the demo (or product) won't be available until 2019." that would be fine! We'd be disappointed, but at least his name wouldn't be continually lowered day after day that nothing is said and his customers are sitting around wondering.

Randy
Message: Posted by: rochaz (Dec 30, 2009 11:33AM)
Hello all!

Just thinking out loud here......

Let's suppose that PH never comes on here to answer all the concerns but instead
just decides to release Little Man in Feburary of 2010 (arbitratry date...just for argument's sake) with nothing more than a quick "sorry about the delay" response.
Let's say that it turns out to be everything that we'd hope it would be; the greatest effect ever. (I know...I know... just humor me)

Will all the folks that are upset and unhappy with everything that's been going on regarding this product (losing respect for PH, losing interest, unhappy, etc.) go ahead and purchase it?

What would be the justification/rationale for those that do?

Or will you say "no thanks" as a matter of principal?

I realize that my imaginary scenario will probably not come to pass....but still I'm curious.


Respectfully,
Rochaz
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 30, 2009 11:50AM)
I'm sure some would probably purchase it BUT his name would never be trusted again. When you have a business, success is not only dependant on your customers buying your product BUT ALSO knowing your customers TRUST your word and your marketing...so that they will return and buy more.

Trust is the issue here, not just selling a product. If trust isn't there, customers won't return.

Randy
Message: Posted by: rochaz (Dec 30, 2009 12:02PM)
FredNarlo,
I understand what you're saying, I really do.



However, the question still remains....will YOU purchase it?


Rochaz
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 30, 2009 12:37PM)
If "Little Man" actually does do what the ads say it can do, and it lives up to it's hype,(no reason at this point for me to continue to believe that it actually will) I may still purchase it. But my disappointment and lack of trust in Paul Harris and his production team won't change. It's not so much from a personal stand point, but from a business one.

I will NEVER make a pre-order with Paul Harris Productions, as that trust has now been tarnished for me. It should also be noted that the offer for anyone who has pre-ordered can request their money back at anytime is not so much an offer made in good faith by PH productions but is indeed part of the consumer protection act. In others words, PH productions legally has to offer anyone their money back on pre-orders.

Paul doesn't need to come on here and explain anything to us. The MagicCafe is not the center of the magic community, but it would be benificial for him to make some kind of statement somewhere instead of hiding behind his sister, which I find disrespectful in itself.

If a demo should ever surface from the abyss, and it shows "Little Man" walking as described in the ads, I'll wait until I hear reviews from it first. I sure won't be quick to send my money that's for sure. :)
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 30, 2009 12:57PM)
Will I purchase? Only if something is done soon to show some concern for custoemrs. Otherwise, I will just do without.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 30, 2009 01:04PM)
I want to add that I do not know Paul Harris personally, and my opinions do not reflect on how I feel about him on a personal level. I have no opinion of him on a personal level because I have never met him.

My opinions are soley based on his business practices.
Message: Posted by: rochaz (Dec 30, 2009 01:07PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-30 13:37, Gospel Dan wrote:
I may still purchase it. But my disappointment and lack of trust in Paul Harris and his production team won't change. It's not so much from a personal stand point, but from a business one.


GD,
But isn't it one and the same thing?
You're saying that you may still purchase it but your disappointment and lack of trust in PH will remain?
How do you separate a personal standpoint from a business standpoint in this case?

If this release happens to be the greatest thing ever....you're saying that you'll have to put aside your personal beliefs just this once?


[quote]
Paul doesn't need to come on here and explain anything to us. The MagicCafe is not the center of the magic community, but it would be benificial for him to make some kind of statement somewhere instead of hiding behind his sister, which I find disrespectful in itself.


Hiding behind his sister?
I'm slightly confused here...perhaps I'm not the best reference here but when has PH ever discussed or had an open dialogue regarding his effects/releases in the last several years?


Dan,
I ask these questions with only the greatest respect.
thanks!


Respectfully,
rochaz

[quote]
On 2009-12-30 13:57, FredNarlo wrote:
Will I purchase? Only if something is done soon to show some concern for custoemrs. Otherwise, I will just do without.
[/quote]

FredNarlo,
Fair enough....
Would you please be kind enough to explain how you think he should do this?

Thanks,
rochaz
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Dec 30, 2009 01:56PM)
Perhaps there really is no John Dough and this whole experience is a piece of performance art whereby Paul Harris turns all of us into "...little men..."

jeff
Message: Posted by: Rafael The Master Hypnotist (Dec 30, 2009 02:03PM)
Where I the Good peofrom Paul Harris website?

Strangely they only appear during the Hype and the Sales Pitch


I order this "Little Man" few month ago....no sign of this Little Dude anytime soon I guess

Still Waiting....

...
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 30, 2009 02:19PM)
HAIKU TIME! A haiku can help tension anytime, just watch...or just read this!

Dough, three hundred bucks
Bad magic business, priceless
Is this just a dream?
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 30, 2009 02:53PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-30 14:07, rochaz wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-12-30 13:37, Gospel Dan wrote:
I may still purchase it. But my disappointment and lack of trust in Paul Harris and his production team won't change. It's not so much from a personal stand point, but from a business one.


GD,
But isn't it one and the same thing?
You're saying that you may still purchase it but your disappointment and lack of trust in PH will remain?
How do you separate a personal standpoint from a business standpoint in this case?

If this release happens to be the greatest thing ever....you're saying that you'll have to put aside your personal beliefs just this once?


[quote]
Paul doesn't need to come on here and explain anything to us. The MagicCafe is not the center of the magic community, but it would be benificial for him to make some kind of statement somewhere instead of hiding behind his sister, which I find disrespectful in itself.


Hiding behind his sister?
I'm slightly confused here...perhaps I'm not the best reference here but when has PH ever discussed or had an open dialogue regarding his effects/releases in the last several years?


Dan,
I ask these questions with only the greatest respect.
thanks!


Respectfully,
rochaz
[/quote]

I have never met Paul Harris personally. I don't know what kind of a man he is. I do however hear many good things about him as a person and magician.

I choose to seperate him as a human being from his business practices so as not to question his personal integrity or reputation as a person or magician. I am only questioning his business practices which I have no reason to respect due to the nature of the marketing of "Little Man". That is how I seperate the two.

I will obviously be reluctant to fall for the next hype PH Productions puts out on a product, and will never pre-order from them due to them marketing a product, advertising it, offering contests, and making claims about the product that it obviously at the time is not able to do.

"Hiding behind his sister" was a bit strong. That was indeed making a judgement on Paul's personal reputation. Good catch, my bad. For that I do apologize.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 30, 2009 04:14PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-29 21:01, Robert M wrote:
First of all, I'm guessing that this is out of Paul's control. Rodney Whitlock is involved, and Paul or Janet can't very well post that the hold up is due to Rodney.

Second, it's very unfair to criticize Janet. She's new to the game and is only helping out her brother.

Third, I believe that this is Paul's first solo business venture. He has always relied on others to handle the marketing and business side of things, so I think every one should cut him some slack.

I saw a recent interview with him, and he sounded a little disenchanted with the whole thing. In fact, he said he would never talk about any upcoming projects again because he doesn't want to have to answer the inevitable question, "When is it coming out?"

Granted, this was advertised way too early. But, why is everyone being so mean? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Paul's intention to tease everyone with something that wasn't ready for prime time.

Robert
[/quote]

Ill informed guesses and then making excuses for others ...

Just because the book one started learning from tells one to point to where you want the audience to look after a french drop does not excuse poor technique or misdirection in performance.

IMHO not worth making statements directed at PH - just some questions about PHP.
Message: Posted by: cairo (Dec 30, 2009 04:28PM)
Is there a point at which the Little Man offer will be withdrawn or does everyone think that as long as this thread grows it proves customers will be patient?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 30, 2009 05:11PM)
? IMHO most of us here are enthusiastic about the effect and wishing pHP the best in getting it to market.
Message: Posted by: cairo (Dec 30, 2009 08:22PM)
The more enthusiastic we become the more we will expect. Here's hoping Little Man is a big success.
Message: Posted by: Robert The Magical Radway (Dec 30, 2009 08:38PM)
Same, I hope it is as awesome as it could be!
Message: Posted by: David Regal (Dec 30, 2009 08:46PM)
For the time being...at 5' 6" I could be considered a "little man." If you pay me $300.00 you can cover me with clay and I will walk.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 30, 2009 09:56PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-30 21:46, David Regal wrote:
For the time being...at 5' 6" I could be considered a "little man." If you pay me $300.00 you can cover me with clay and I will walk.
[/quote]

That sounds too kinky for me.(lol)

:)
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Dec 30, 2009 10:43PM)
Haiku time!

David Regal speaks!
He puts out a great product!
His Passport is cool!

Randy
Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Dec 30, 2009 10:49PM)
For $3.65, you can just rent "Little Man" starring Damon Wayans and buy a pack of play-doh to play with while you watch it.
Message: Posted by: The great Gumbini (Dec 30, 2009 11:34PM)
If I'm not mistaken all of us "crawled" before we "walked". Little Man will walk---he just needs help getting started.


Good magic to all,


Eric
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Dec 31, 2009 12:56PM)
Good point, perhaps he should start with "Little Skydiver". Plop!

David, thanks for the kind offer, but for me you are a bit too late. I am in negotiations with some out-of-work Ommpa Loompa's. Can't say more at this point, but you may be able to pre-order and qualify for more of my stuff...

I hope both Paul and his sister can see that a lot of this is just some reasonably good-natured ribbing. At least that is how I read, and intend,it- especially the haiku...

So the year winds down,
Too late for 2009?
New Year means clean slate...

Here's to all for a great
and magical 2010!

Jim
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 31, 2009 07:51PM)
As 2009 comes to an end,
and we still wait for "Little Man",
keep in mind there are better things to do,
than wait around feeling blue.

"Little Man" may never come,
and some of us will feel dumb,
for holding out for so long,
listening to the same old song.

So here's to 2010,
let's forget about "Little Man",
There are many tricks on the market today,
that have a demo we can play.

So give them a chance,
and I'm sure you'll agree,
there are still plenty of other tricks for you and for me!

:)
Message: Posted by: Axman (Dec 31, 2009 09:12PM)
Gospel Dan,
that was truly awful
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Dec 31, 2009 09:24PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-31 20:51, Gospel Dan wrote:
As 2009 comes to an end,
and we still wait for "Little Man",
keep in mind there are better things to do,
than wait around feeling blue.

"Little Man" may never come,
and some of us will feel dumb,
for holding out for so long,
listening to the same old song.

So here's to 2010,
let's forget about "Little Man",
There are many tricks on the market today,
that have a demo we can play.

So give them a chance,
and I'm sure you'll agree,
there are still plenty of other tricks for you and for me!

:)
[/quote]

:dancing: :bubbly: :dancing:

:hamburger: :heavymetal: :pepper: :cucumber:

:righton: :cheers: :righton:

:stuckinbag:
Message: Posted by: Axman (Dec 31, 2009 09:52PM)
When Silvio Solaris posts, all thinking "workers" should listen!
Thanks for this latest offering silvio!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Dec 31, 2009 10:07PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-31 22:12, Axman wrote:
Gospel Dan,
that was truly awful
[/quote]

I have to be honest and agree with you on that one. :)
Message: Posted by: Axman (Dec 31, 2009 10:13PM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-31 23:07, Gospel Dan wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-12-31 22:12, Axman wrote:
Gospel Dan,
that was truly awful
[/quote]

I have to be honest and agree with you on that one. :)
[/quote]

LOL! Gospel Dan.
thanks for thislatest offering to the Café.
happy new year!
LOL!
Message: Posted by: BIlly James (Jan 1, 2010 02:49AM)
[quote]
On 2009-12-30 21:46, David Regal wrote:
For the time being...at 5' 6" I could be considered a "little man." If you pay me $300.00 you can cover me with clay and I will walk.
[/quote]

How are you on being rolled back into a little ball?
Message: Posted by: Lawrens Godon (Jan 1, 2010 03:41PM)
I'm pretty sure I've found a link directly related to "little man"...
I won't post it here because I don't want to spoil anything.
Just ask if you want and I'll pm it to you...
omg, I hope I'm wrong...
Message: Posted by: JPK (Jan 1, 2010 11:20PM)
Good evening all.
I understand the disappointment with the marketing of this effect. I just don't understand how anyone could be so harsh with how long it is taking.
Did you pay for it as a pre-order?
If you did and don't like the time it's taking, get your money back.
If you didn't, and your just upset this isn't your newest thing to have then I can understand that as well.
They admitted they may a have made a boo-boo in talking about this to early.
The actual item might have had potential but wasn't up to PH's standards.
Or maybe he had some better ideas.
At this point I don't think any one of us knows.
Can you make a good argument that an effect shouldn't be released without real world experience? Yup.
But we don't even know that.
It might work right in the proper hands. This is being marketed for the general public.
That can't be easy. I can't imagine what that would be like.

I'm not trying to excuse what PHP has done.
Just trying to understand.
I refuse to believe that PHP is trying to deceive us.
Just my opinion.
JPK
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Jan 1, 2010 11:43PM)
Nobody thinks or has even said that PHP is trying to deceive us, the problem is the lack of communication as of late. We need to know SOMETHING...anything!

This calls for a haiku! Heck yeah it does!

We wait, no response
Is John Dough both deaf and mute?
Or is he just dead?

Mandarin, you got a haiku for our souls? I usually do all the haikus, but can you pop another out so my mind and soul can be therapeutically quenched?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 2, 2010 12:05AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 00:20, JPK wrote:
Good evening all.
I understand the disappointment with the marketing of this effect. I just don't understand how anyone could be so harsh with how long it is taking.
Did you pay for it as a pre-order?
If you did and don't like the time it's taking, get your money back.
If you didn't, and your just upset this isn't your newest thing to have then I can understand that as well.
They admitted they may a have made a boo-boo in talking about this to early.
The actual item might have had potential but wasn't up to PH's standards.
Or maybe he had some better ideas.
At this point I don't think any one of us knows.
Can you make a good argument that an effect shouldn't be released without real world experience? Yup.
But we don't even know that.
It might work right in the proper hands. This is being marketed for the general public.
That can't be easy. I can't imagine what that would be like.

I'm not trying to excuse what PHP has done.
Just trying to understand.
I refuse to believe that PHP is trying to deceive us.
Just my opinion.
JPK
[/quote]

No matter if well intended*
apologist twaddle at this point
comes across as paid posts
by unsavory businessmen.

*if in fact you are a magician you've evidently forgotten that intention is something inferred by the audience while you do whatever it is for whatever reasons or lack thereof.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 2, 2010 01:00AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 00:43, FredNarlo wrote:
We need to know SOMETHING.
[/quote]
Possible point of clarification......you only [i]want[/i] to know.

When it comes to unreleased magic tricks nobody really "needs" to know anything at all.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 2, 2010 01:22AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 02:00, silverking wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 00:43, FredNarlo wrote:
We need to know SOMETHING.
[/quote]
Possible point of clarification......you only [i]want[/i] to know.

When it comes to unreleased magic tricks nobody really "needs" to know anything at all.
[/quote]

FredNarlo expressed how he feels.

Possible point of clarification......you only [i]want[/i] to type.

When it comes to making impudent comments about other folks feelings, nobody really "needs" to type anything at all.

;)
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Jan 2, 2010 04:29AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 00:20, JPK wrote:
Good evening all.
I understand the disappointment with the marketing of this effect. I just don't understand how anyone could be so harsh with how long it is taking.
Did you pay for it as a pre-order?
If you did and don't like the time it's taking, get your money back.
If you didn't, and your just upset this isn't your newest thing to have then I can understand that as well.
They admitted they may a have made a boo-boo in talking about this to early.
The actual item might have had potential but wasn't up to PH's standards.
Or maybe he had some better ideas.
At this point I don't think any one of us knows.
Can you make a good argument that an effect shouldn't be released without real world experience? Yup.
But we don't even know that.
It might work right in the proper hands. This is being marketed for the general public.
That can't be easy. I can't imagine what that would be like.

I'm not trying to excuse what PHP has done.
Just trying to understand.
I refuse to believe that PHP is trying to deceive us.
Just my opinion.
JPK
[/quote]

Oh for heavens sake !!!!

We've had a team of people building a stake in the town centre and gathering kindling.

We've had people recruiting for the mob and buying pitchforks ( which aren't that easy to come by) and a a team making good old fashioned torches from pitch and chunks of wood.

And, after all that effort, you want to get reasonable !!!!


Seriously the question for me is how much info the pre-order folk are getting since they are the important ones in this. Of course the advert is still out there spouting on about the on-line demo but there has been enough noise about that now that, unless you have money invested in this thing, the majority of us should remain schtum.

As I said though I would be interested to hear from anyone who has pre-ordered to see what info they are getting.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 2, 2010 10:17AM)
Haiku calls...

"They also serve who..."
dreaming of a white christmas,
"... only stand and wait."

Jim
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 2, 2010 11:12AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 02:22, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 02:00, silverking wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 00:43, FredNarlo wrote:
We need to know SOMETHING.
[/quote]
Possible point of clarification......you only [i]want[/i] to know.

When it comes to unreleased magic tricks nobody really "needs" to know anything at all.
[/quote]

FredNarlo expressed how he feels.

Possible point of clarification......you only [i]want[/i] to type.

When it comes to making impudent comments about other folks feelings, nobody really "needs" to type anything at all.

;)
[/quote]
Apparently as do you Jonathan (you seem incapable of [i]not[/i] typing).

Pot, meet kettle.
Message: Posted by: ebinary (Jan 2, 2010 12:08PM)
Just read this thread. The premarketing of a non-demonstrable effects brings up an interesting question on copyright. From the description of the trick, I am virtually certain I know the method. Self-contained, don't have to be present, squashable at the end, reset time.

Of course, since the trick has not been delivered or demonstrated, I couldn't be stealing the actual solution, as we don't even know the actual solution exists. Nor has there been a public performance to enter it into copyright.

I'm thinking of mocking up a model this week. Is that un-ethical? If I post it on youtube, do I earn the copyright based on first public performance? And what if my method turns out to be different?

Surely simply describing a narrative is not copyrightable as a performance, or one could simply copyright trick ideas:

"with no setup, a woman is levitated in any location".

"A man thinks of an item and without any communication, it is produced out of thin air".

"Wearing nothing more than a speedo, a man produces a physical pile of coins from his fingertips".

Then when someone solves these problems, I claim copyright for pre-describing the effect.

Perhaps this would deter the pre-introduction of vaporware tricks? Comments?

Eric

P.S. the speedo trick does not involve any artificial limbs

Posted: Jan 2, 2010 1:52pm
I certainly can understand why a magician doesn't like being decontructed on video, however don't all magic video performance violate the 2nd rule of magic: "Don't repeat a trick."? A video trick is infinately repeatable, and that's the real problem (especially for sleights). Too bad YouTube doesn't have a setting for a "one-time-view" video.

I think the promos for Powerball 60 and Flicker are about right in their detail, though I'll admit they are frustrating.

Of course, in this case, we have only heard an idea for a trick... Like most folks here, I'd love to see the demo: once.

Eric
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 2, 2010 01:21PM)
EBinary, pigeons copy. artists take tooks to create their own works (in our case performances) to express what they will for audiences.

one of the differences between people and pigeons is the notion of permission.

not to worry about this item - the golem has been a part of literature etc for a century or so in magic as an animation effect and in our culture's literature since at least as far back as the ancient Greeks.

the tough question is what it means to folks here to be copying at all - with or without permission.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 2, 2010 01:25PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 13:08, ebinary wrote:
Just read this thread. The premarketing of a non-demonstrable effects brings up an interesting question on copyright. From the description of the trick, I am virtually certain I know the method. Self-contained, don't have to be present, squashable at the end, reset time.

Of course, since the trick has not been delivered or demonstrated, I couldn't be stealing the actual solution, as we don't even know the actual solution exists. Nor has there been a public performance to enter it into copyright.

I'm thinking of mocking up a model this week. Is that un-ethical? If I post it on youtube, do I earn the copyright based on first public performance? And what if my method turns out to be different?

Surely simply describing a narrative is not copyrightable as a performance, or one could simply copyright trick ideas:

"with no setup, a woman is levitated in any location".

"A man thinks of an item and without any communication, it is produced out of thin air".

"Wearing nothing more than a speedo, a man produces a physical pile of coins from his fingertips".

Then when someone solves these problems, I claim copyright for pre-describing the effect.

Perhaps this would deter the pre-introduction of vaporware tricks? Comments?

Eric

P.S. the speedo trick does not involve any artificial limbs
[/quote]

Not only do you make a valid point, but I encourage you to further develope your idea. If you can provide a demo, and it looks good, you'll have my money that's for sure. Nothing unethical about your points you make in my opinion.

There is nothing about "Little Man" at this point to actually prove that it can live up to it's advertisment or hype. The only thing people can hang onto is the reputation of Paul Harris, and to be honest, that's not enough for me to invest in something that doesn't exist. Despite what the ad claims, it's apparent that "Little Man" does not live up to it. At least not at this time it does. I wonder if that constitutes false advertising. I'm no expert at advertising laws, but I always thought that if a product doesn't live up to what it is being advertised then it is false advertising.

Nothing in the advertisment says "It Will one day be able to do...". The advertisment claims and implies that it already can do what it says it can do.
Message: Posted by: bekralik (Jan 2, 2010 02:35PM)
Nope, no false advertising here, Dan. The product isn't out yet, remember?

It's funny how the people who are most vehemently against it and who swear they will never order it are the ones who have posted the most in this thread. If I wasn't interested anymore, I would move on and not keep littering this thread ... but that's me.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 2, 2010 03:06PM)
Advertising and asking for pre-orders for a product that doesn't exist isn't false advertising? Are you just saying that or do you know enough about advertising that you are offering your expert opinion?

As for littering the thread, you might want to read the rules of the forum. Also, please, (with all respect) get your facts straight. No one is against the product. We are against the marketing, lack of a demo, broken promises and continued delays. I would say that everyone who is posting here has had an interrest for "Little Man" ever since it was advertised. But as time goes by there still remains no proof or evidence it can do what it claims it can do.

Please show where anyone has sworn that they would never order it. I know that I have a few times mentioned that I have lost interrest in it, but rereading the posts I could not find anyone who "swore" they would never buy it once a demo was released.

I have noticed however, that some who are upset with the majority of the posts being made here will offer nothing but criticism of the posters making them.

I hope we can all learn to respect each others views and opinions without resorting to attacking those with whom we disagreee with.

Doing a little research does not deem me to be an expert but I have read that if an advertisment implies that a product exists and is able to do something which later is discovered cannot do, by later discovering from out sources that the original product was not able to do what the ad claimed it can do, sending the prototype back to the drawing board so it can do what it claims to do, can be regarded as misleading and false advertising.

In otherwords, if I say I have a product that can make money grow on tree's, but my prototype can not do it at the time, even though I intend to make it work, the advertising could be considered misleading.

When I read the advertisment for "Little Man" I was under the impression as I sure many were that there was an actual product already made that did as it was said it could do. We of course have learned that the original prototype that the ad was based on could not do what it was claimed to do and needed to be further worked on.

Again, I'm not expert on advertising, and I am willing to be corrected with my opinion. Just as long as someone explains more about it to me from a legal stand point.
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Jan 2, 2010 03:40PM)
I NEED, NEED to do a haiku!

Little Man, this thread
I keep coming back for more
Me, a Dough junkie
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jan 2, 2010 08:03PM)
I think that magic will have reached a new low if someone is able to bring a copy cat version of an effect before the original item itself comes to market. How could anyone in their right mind even consider or encourage such foolishness?

As for false advertising in magic, well let's get real. Some magic creators can be trusted sight unseen and many not. We all know who to trust and continue to support their work. For me that would be folks like Steve Axtell, Chance Wolf, Doug Malloy, Lee Alex and a few others.

If people truly were outraged at PHP they wouldn't post about Little Man and they would ask for their money back. I'd like to start my own Little Man contest...how many days can you go without posting about it? My guess not that long.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Jan 2, 2010 08:27PM)
24 minutes...I guess we lose!
Message: Posted by: bekralik (Jan 2, 2010 08:34PM)
To me, the very notion of the word "pre-order" implies that a product does not yet exist!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 2, 2010 09:15PM)
It should also imply that a working prototype that lives up to the advertisment doesn't exist either. In fact, it should imply that the said product doesn't exist at all, which it doesn't. Wouldn't that just make it a pipe dream then? Or, just an idea?

For something to be a copycat it would have to be of something that actually exists. "Little Man" doesn't exist. The only thing that exists is the advertisment. There is no product. Don't you think we would of seen a demo of it by now? It's been 3 months since we were first told that a rough demo was being made. Over a month ago we were told it was almost finished.

Can anyone actually provide even a shed of evidence that "Little Man" actually exists? Even the picture of it isn't real.

I will continue to wait and see if any shed of evidence ever surfaces that proves "Little Man" exists. In the meantime, I will also choose to continue to post my thoughts and opinions. It is after all what this forum is for. Those who have a problem with that should bring it up to Steve Brooks.

I don't believe in Bigfoot or UFO's either, and there have been people who have claimed to see one. I would have to have more doubt in "Little Man" existing when no one has seen it, or claims to have seen it.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 2, 2010 09:57PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 21:03, The Great Smartini wrote:
I think that magic will have reached a new low if someone is able to bring a copy cat version of an effect before the original item itself comes to market. How could anyone in their right mind even consider or encourage such foolishness?...
[/quote]

Foolish is NOT exploring what you can get working with a real clay figure. Go to it. No need to bring anything to market just see what you can get working.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 2, 2010 10:09PM)
In all respect to Paul Harris, (even though I have never met the man) I am going to try and refrain from posting further comments here in this forum until the end of January. At that point if no demo or proof that "Little Man" actually exists I think it's a safe bet to assume that we have been mislead. Until then, I still have some hope left that "Little Man" will surface.
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (Jan 2, 2010 10:25PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 23:09, Gospel Dan wrote:
In all respect to Paul Harris, (even though I have never met the man) I am going to try and refrain from posting further comments here in this forum until the end of January. At that point if no demo or proof that "Little Man" actually exists I think it's a safe bet to assume that we have been mislead. Until then, I still have some hope left that "Little Man" will surface.
[/quote]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............

.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 2, 2010 10:28PM)
The Phoenix rises,
Not from ashes, but from dough.
Then struts to the bank...

Posted: Jan 2, 2010 11:43pm
Sorry for the double and double, but I am on a roll...


It's coming I know,
I hear the tiny footsteps
Each gaining on me...


Please, Paul don't do it!
Would you spoil our Haiku fun
Now that we are hot?
Message: Posted by: samdan (Jan 2, 2010 10:55PM)
Simple question--Where is paul Harris to address what's going on? Enough said.
Message: Posted by: ebinary (Jan 2, 2010 11:26PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 22:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-02 21:03, The Great Smartini wrote:
I think that magic will have reached a new low if someone is able to bring a copy cat version of an effect before the original item itself comes to market. How could anyone in their right mind even consider or encourage such foolishness?...
[/quote]

Foolish is NOT exploring what you can get working with a real clay figure. Go to it. No need to bring anything to market just see what you can get working.
[/quote]

Exactly. Nobody ever said anything about marketing anything. Hopefully Little Man arrives before the materials arrive for my experiment.

Ebinary
Message: Posted by: BIlly James (Jan 2, 2010 11:44PM)
I just hope when it arrives it's as classy and commercial as sticking your finger with a needle and turning the blood into a lady beetle.
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 3, 2010 03:25AM)
The Little Man Demo is here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=132RUk10LFk

Janet
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 3, 2010 06:17AM)
The demo is up - as advertised.

Congrats PHP :)
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jan 3, 2010 10:39AM)
Now we can start properly speculating as to how it works.

Let's hear it for MAGIC!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 3, 2010 11:10AM)
A LUMP OF CLAY COMES TO LIFE!

You bring out a small gift bag and pull out a standard container of kid's clay. You peel off the lid, pull out a lump of clay and let your audience freely squish, pull and play with it. You then help the audience mold the clay into a little man (or woman!) The only reason you help is to insure that his little proportions are correct.

YOUR HANDS ARE ALWAYS EMPTY. THERE'S NOTHING INSIDE THE CLAY!

"A spectator then takes a final bit of clay and shapes it into a tiny clay heart."???

She warms the heart in her hands... and for a moment... she THINKS SHE MIGHT feel a tiny heart beat. She gently sticks the tiny clay heart onto Little Man's chest. You then stand the little guy on the flattened empty bag. Someone gently blows on his heart. Then a moment later...unbelievably...

"Little Man takes his first step!"???

"YES, HE'S MOVING FORWARD AND ACTUALLY WALKING... ONE ASTONISHING STEP AT A TIME!"?????

This is where you have to see the on-line demo to experience the devastating wonderfulness of it all.

"His entire clay body VISIBLY TURNS AND LURCHES FORWARD with each dramatic step."????

And not that you'd want to, but you could leave the room, go out for a burger, and Little Man would keep on walking!

"And after about 6 or 7 steps,"?????

when Little Man finally stops, anyone can immediately SQUISH HIM INTO A BALL OR TEAR HIM APART... AND THERE'S NOTHING TO FIND BUT A LUMP OF CLAY!

I am glad to finally see a demo. I have a few questions.

What about the steps? It never makes a step, no less 6 or seven of them. It seems to glide rather than take any steps?

Do have to put "*****" paper on his head and bottom of his feet?

Can you use a clay heart rather than the plastic one shown in the demo?

Thanks for finally getting a demo up!
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 3, 2010 11:38AM)
To my way of thinking moving one foot in front of the other in a way that results in a forward movement is a step. Its the same way frankenstein's monster would walk. If you want to call the steps shuffles or something else that's fine by me.

The final dvd will include a naked little man presentation for those who don't want to play dress up.

You can use any kind of heart you want.

Hope this helps.

Janet
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 3, 2010 12:16PM)
"YES, HE'S MOVING FORWARD AND [ACTUALLY] WALKING"

I suppose it was this particular statement that had me believe he would actually make walking movements.

Walking I guess has always meant to me when only one foot at a time leaves contact with the ground and there is a short period of double-support. Even frankenstein's monster's feet left the ground when walking.

A step by definition is the act of changing location by raising the foot and setting it down.

I mean no disrespect by both my questions and giving my knowledge of the definitions I give of "walking" or "step". I'm just a little disapointed I guess. That may just be me though.

Thanks again Janet.

P.S. I want to also mention that it is no ones fault other than my own for having a different expectation of how "Little Man" was going to actually walk.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 3, 2010 01:43PM)
I was expecting he'd dance the hokey-pokey, then do a back-flip onto the specs hand......where upon he'd spin three times and spit cider into the specs ear.
Message: Posted by: markmiller (Jan 3, 2010 01:49PM)
After all the advance hype who could expect anything less?
Message: Posted by: Majestic12 (Jan 3, 2010 02:14PM)
Looks cute.. that's about it.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 3, 2010 03:06PM)
Now that we have finally seen a demo, has anyone placed their pre-orders yet?
Message: Posted by: Bernie Balloons (Jan 3, 2010 04:24PM)
I am glad I waited to see it.Now I am $300.00 richer.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jan 3, 2010 04:48PM)
Cute, I have no idea of how's it done whatsoever.

But definitely not worth the 4 months of massive over-hype. I felt like a The Virts dejavu.
Message: Posted by: Liam Montier (Jan 3, 2010 04:49PM)
Man, I'm always astonished by the P.H reviews on the Café. I've used Backlash, Reality Twister and some other P.H stuff that gets slated on this forum. I've never had anything but genuine astonishment come from the pieces I've performed of Paul Harris's.

And now, when a clay figure comes alive, people just argue about the definition of the word "walk".

Different strokes for different folks and all that I guess...
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 3, 2010 04:53PM)
When you make your pre-order and you receive it can you review it for us. That is of course assuming that you are going to pre-order it.

As far as my definition of "walk" or "steps", it comes straight from a dictionary. I wasn't just stating my opinion or interpretation of the words. Sorry for not realizing "walking" actually meant gliding to other people's personal interpretation of it. How could I know. I take personal responsability for reading the ad the way I did. I should know better than to think that the words in advertising today actually mean what they say. :)
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jan 3, 2010 05:18PM)
When one makes their own copy cat version of a marketed effect then one is simply stealing the original thoughts and ideas of a fellow performer. It doesn't matter whether you market the effect for sale or not. If you animate a lump of clay or a person created from the clay then you're performing Little Man which rightly belongs to PHP...not cool.

I'm not surprised by the lack of leg movement/walking as what kind of $300 engineering design would you realistically expect. Still, this isn't walking by definition.

I do like the look of the select-o-matic version of the effect as you do get a dual effect that I think is stronger. I'm wondering if the LM could be created into other shapes such as animals/etc.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Liam Montier (Jan 3, 2010 05:35PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-03 17:53, Gospel Dan wrote:
When you make your pre-order and you receive it can you review it for us. That is of course assuming that you are going to pre-order it.

As far as my definition of "walk" or "steps", it comes straight from a dictionary. I wasn't just stating my opinion or interpretation of the words. Sorry for not realizing "walking" actually meant gliding to other people's personal interpretation of it. How could I know. I take personal responsability for reading the ad the way I did. I should know better than to think that the words in advertising today actually mean what they say. :)
[/quote]

I'm hoping to pre-order it soon - I'd love to review it. I feel slightly bad for posting anything now.

I wasn't trying to change your definitions of anything, to be honest. I just think that a layperson will never critique how Little Man walks - they will be too astonished by it merely moving. That is all I really wanted to say.
Message: Posted by: JPK (Jan 3, 2010 05:49PM)
Good evening.
After seeing the demo, all I can say is that I am sure I can make this work for me. I'm impressed. I'm seeing a dead/alive prediction with a voo-dough doll.
Something tells me if it tipp-toed across the table it wouldn't be " Light enough on his feet" for some of you guys. He would fail at Dancing With the Stars.
Message: Posted by: ebinary (Jan 3, 2010 06:03PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-03 18:18, The Great Smartini wrote:
When one makes their own copy cat version of a marketed effect then one is simply stealing the original thoughts and ideas of a fellow performer. It doesn't matter whether you market the effect for sale or not. If you animate a lump of clay or a person created from the clay then you're performing Little Man which rightly belongs to PHP...not cool.
[/quote]

However, there was no effect until the demo was posted today. However, I do think Gumby and David & Goliath predated Little Man in animating clay men ;-)

[quote]
I'm not surprised by the lack of leg movement/walking as what kind of $300 engineering design would you realistically expect. Still, this isn't walking by definition.
[/quote]

Yeah, it doesn't interest me to replicate the current effect. The engineering of an actual walking clay man is what interested me. I agree that the select-o-matic is more interesting, probably because there is a purpose for his movement, so it doesn't need to seem like a miraculous birth.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 3, 2010 06:04PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-03 18:18, The Great Smartini wrote:
When one makes their own copy cat version of a marketed effect then one is simply stealing the original thoughts and ideas of a fellow performer.

Jeff
[/quote]

I agree, and hope that Paul Harris credits the originator of this effect.
Message: Posted by: Liam Montier (Jan 3, 2010 06:06PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-03 19:04, Gospel Dan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-03 18:18, The Great Smartini wrote:
When one makes their own copy cat version of a marketed effect then one is simply stealing the original thoughts and ideas of a fellow performer.

Jeff
[/quote]

I agree, and hope that Paul Harris credits the originator of this effect.
[/quote]

Perhaps when you pre-order it, you can review it and let us know.

xD

Liam.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 3, 2010 06:21PM)
I have no intentions of pre-ordering it. Don't need to to hope that the originator gets his due credit. The method isn't new. As The Great Smartini stated, "When one makes their own copy cat version of a marketed effect then one is simply stealing the original thoughts and ideas of a fellow performer." Not my words.

"Little Man" isn't a copycat, but Paul has made his own version of a marketed and once published effect. I'm sure credit will be given.
Message: Posted by: JPK (Jan 3, 2010 06:37PM)
Good evening Gospel Dan.
So this method has been published and marketed before?
Interesting. Since I don't know what LM's method is I would love to have you point me in the direction of the original effect that used this method. Please PM me as I wouldn't want any exposure of PH's method or the originators.
Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Jan 3, 2010 06:57PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-03 18:49, JPK wrote:
Good evening.
After seeing the demo, all I can say is that I am sure I can make this work for me. I'm impressed. I'm seeing a dead/alive prediction with a voo-dough doll.
Something tells me if it tipp-toed across the table it wouldn't be " Light enough on his feet" for some of you guys. He would fail at Dancing With the Stars.
[/quote]

Exactly! That's the first idea/presentation that came into my mind when the little guy was anounced. With the right patter, the right setting with candles (remote ones perhaps) spirit bell and butchers blade...people would freak out.

I was very certain that John Dough is going to 'shuffle' his steps and not take actual steps. There is no technology in the world that would permit that. Not for $3,000.00 and not for $30,000.00, especially when the dough is examinable after the effect...

After all I congratulate the PHP team for finally posting a demo and sticking to the descriptions.

IMHO the only thing I don't like is that he has to walk on top of a bag. It would have been better to have the gimmick under a table...
Message: Posted by: JPK (Jan 3, 2010 07:01PM)
Good evening Silvio Solaris.
Well said.
Nice work Paul and team. Of course when the reviews come out from those who use this, we will all be much wiser.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 3, 2010 07:15PM)
I'm almost sure that when you get your copy that you'll see that Paul will more than likely give credit where credit is due. I have no need to think otherwise, and no need to bicker about it.
Message: Posted by: JPK (Jan 3, 2010 07:21PM)
Good evening Gospel Dan.
I'm sure you are right there. No bickering here.
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 3, 2010 09:14PM)
Hello Gospel Dan

The only other similar effect we are aware of is Dance Macabe (James Cameron?)..a vastly different approach using a switched in wind up toy. Please let me know if there is anything else out there that we missed. Of course Paul wants to properly credit any other versions of this.

Janet
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Jan 3, 2010 09:15PM)
I'm interested, too. What's the previously marketed effect, Gospel Dan?

Robert
Message: Posted by: markmiller (Jan 3, 2010 10:07PM)
How about Maury Leif's Sphinx?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 3, 2010 10:17PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-03 23:07, markmiller wrote:
How about Maury Leif's Sphinx?
[/quote]

Link?
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 3, 2010 11:01PM)
It looks like he is walking to me, one foot in front of the other. Very cool. This is what I expected, it is just how I remember Gumby walking. But even better.
I wonder if I can make Pokey and make him walk?

ACE
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Jan 3, 2010 11:28PM)
Can you have multiple Little Man's walking at the same time?

A "little" army...in other words. ;)
Message: Posted by: Einmaliger (Jan 4, 2010 02:36AM)
This looks great! The advertisement sounded too good to be true, but PH has actually done it. Congratulations to this beautiful piece of art!

Now if only I had another $300 left.
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 4, 2010 05:02AM)
I'd already pre-ordered and I have to say there was some initial disappointment at seeing the demo but on subsequent viewing I do find it more impressive. The biggest let down at first was definitely the walking, he doesn't really seem to walk but slide which is a shame but I understand the limitations. I also noticed the plastic bag has turned into a small gift bag, which to me looks a little more suspicious than the plastic bag sounded.

I like the fact any dough can be used and the little man can be offered to the spectator to keep, though this does put more focus on the bag. It's also a nice touch that the dough can double up as dog food.

The thing that concerns me most is the use of the card on the feet, is this necessary? Is it to do with traction or is this more crucial to the effect's workings?

I'd also like to know how big the man can be built, as I'd like it to be visible on stage in small club/room environments?

If Janet or anyone else who worked on the effect could respond to my questions that would be greatly appreciated.
Message: Posted by: Roth (Jan 4, 2010 05:34AM)
Now if you tore off little pieces of the business card and folded them up around his feet and drew two little wheels on the sides it would look like he was skating :)
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Jan 4, 2010 10:35AM)
The actual name of the magician is Charles Cameron, who wrote a number of magic books. I'm not sure but it may have been in "Mind Your Magic". It was a neat idea for the time, but top heavy with performance issue. Not sure it was actually performable.
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 4, 2010 11:19AM)
From the PHP website "AT ANY TIME DURING THE PRE ORDER WAITING PROCESS, YOU CAN ASK FOR YOUR MONEY TO BE REFUNDED BACK TO YOU. ESTIMATED TIME OF RELEASE IS OCTOBER."

Is this an old release date that has been put back and missed during the site update, or are we talking October 2010 here? I really hope it's the former or I'll have no choice but to cancel my preorder.
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 4, 2010 11:37AM)
Hello Havens. That was an old date that we missed. It should be out the first quarter of this year. Hopefully sooner than later.

J
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 4, 2010 11:44AM)
Hi Janet, that sounds fine thanks for clearing that up. Would it be possible to answer the following please?

Is the use of card on the feet necessary? Is it to do with traction or is this more crucial to the effect's workings?

I'd also like to know how big the man can be built, as I'd like it to be visible on stage in small club/room environments? Also can a different bag be used than the one supplied?

Thanks
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jan 4, 2010 12:33PM)
I think Gospel Dan may be thinking of Del Ray. I referred to Del early in this or the other thread. Larry Davidson was the only person who picked up on it. More recently Kaufmann has made reference to this as effect progenitor on the genii forum.

Little Man is essentially a version of Del's Willy with a different (and less effective) method.

Del was very secretive about his work and I am sure he would appreciate the fraternity keeping it that way. (I know - hope against hope).

While Del's work is not in print there is a book in the works that may or may not contain a discussion of his methods. I am hoping they opt to avoid a discussion of method - but then again, I think magic should be unique and not a commodity. Del was unique and I think we do ourselves and our art a favor in trying to keep it that way.

I know - hope against hope.

Anverdi put out a toy rabbit which moved around a table and found a card. This was marketed in a limited version and used yet again a different method - but the effect does have a lineage going back to there as well, I would think. (According to Bill Dodson - best friend and confident of Del- Anverdi often looked to Del as "inspiration". Neither Bill nor Del were happy with this dynamic largely because they felt his workmanship was lacking and never wanted their items to be compared).
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 4, 2010 12:56PM)
First and foremost, my sincere apologies for insinuating that it was in published form. Truthteller is right in that I was referring to Del Ray.

I am a bumbling idiot for jumping the gun and saying it was in published form when in fact it is not. I regret making my statement before knowing all the facts. I had made a grave mistake by saying the method had already been previously published.

My delay in answering was due to getting permission first to post Del's name.

As for my thoughts and opinions on "Little Man" and the demo. I know I am a very opiniated person, but I have not once insulted anyone who has shared a different opinion than mine. I do not believe that I have resorted to that level like some here choose to do. Nor have I personally attacked Paul Harris. If you choose to assume I did, then I should also have the same right to assume that when I read the ad that "Little Man" would actually walk by actually walking defined by the dictionary's terms of walking.

With that said, I once again offer my apologies for stating that Del Ray's version was published.

Now I have to go finish eating my humble pie. :)

Dan
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 4, 2010 01:27PM)
For those youngsters that don't know Del's work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-ht4FWAxio
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 4, 2010 01:34PM)
So that's what he looks like? (lol) I heard he looked more like a boxer. :)
Thanks for posting it Chris. It put a smile on my face.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 4, 2010 02:11PM)
Same here Dan!

:rotf:

I think both Del's are wonderful!!

Chris
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jan 4, 2010 02:15PM)
The topic "Little Man" is at his place in this thread, although there are two and that is is a little confusing.
But... now someone opened a THIRD in the thread "Tricks & Effects"
Is it the intent to open on every thraed on the forum a topic Little Man?
More than 4 months of advertizing and 3 topics about it.
TO much can also work contra-productive.....
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 4, 2010 02:30PM)
Don't forget about the one that was locked. :)

It might be because this thread has a lot of negative opinions in regards to the marketing and such, therefore a new thread was opened up to hopefully get away from all of it, and into a more pro for, rather than a pro against.

Just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 4, 2010 03:13PM)
And I thought it was because of bad haiku...
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 4, 2010 03:22PM)
Haiku Time!!!

I eat humble pie,
with red faced embarrassment,
Walk little man, walk!
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 4, 2010 03:38PM)
Didn't Darth Vader, in the last Star Wars film, sort of walk like this? He just got his 'new" legs and was a bit unsteady. That seems to be the way it would be if you were just given life ( or your legs had atrophied ).

I like The Little Man demo. If someone molded this in front of me and it shuffled over and lit flash paper, I'd be pretty shocked by it.

Chris
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 4, 2010 03:42PM)
Or call the cops and have him arrested for arson.(lol)
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 4, 2010 04:19PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-04 13:56, Gospel Dan wrote:
My delay in answering was due to getting permission first to post Del's name.
[/quote]
Why on earth would you need permission to post Del's name, and who on earth did you presumably get that permission from?

There is no "permission" required to post a credit.

Are you sure you weren't just talking out of class?
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 4, 2010 05:07PM)
Because the source of information was shared to me in PM by someone I respect. I jumped the gun and spoke out of line when I first posted my comments in regards to it being previously marketed and published. I was absolutely wrong for saying that is was already a marketed and published effect. That was my mistake, and was not part of the info that was given to me.

As far as who I got the info from is really irrelevant. It was reliable and that's all that matters. But, there are several sources out there, including the Genii Forum. When someone sends something to me via private message, I respect it as being privately shared to me.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Dan
Message: Posted by: KevinKM99 (Jan 4, 2010 05:19PM)
I just saved myself $300. Wildly disappointing based on the demo.
Message: Posted by: Al Straker (Jan 4, 2010 05:24PM)
Congratulations to the PH team Little Man indeed has walked a fine walk.

I personally intend to spend some time developing Little Man into an emotionally charged highlight and really think this has wonderful symbolic magical overtones to explore. It has really got me thinking about the deeper context and symbolism of the magic at work here... creation of life theme - just doesn't get much better or more meaningful. If you can get people involved in creating Little Man and achieve a 'buy in' on the personal attachment to the little guy as well as embellish the atmosphere with music, a natural and meaningful story and what PH would probably call 'mental feelies' then the impact of Little Man's first few steps should potentially bring a tear to the eye of even the hardest heart.

Thanks again PH & team!

Al
Message: Posted by: David Leon (Jan 4, 2010 05:44PM)
I think this would be great to use Green clay and do a story of Dr. Frankenstein and build my monster. They way he walks looks like Frank. Could be a great story to tell, each part you create comes from someone different and then with a shock he comes to life totally unexpected! oh, no...just told my routine for this, oh well. Have fun!
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Jan 4, 2010 05:44PM)
I wish whoever owned Del Ray's legacy would release his frog. That's the most amazing trick ever.
Message: Posted by: Ken Dumm (Jan 4, 2010 06:29PM)
The singing "frog" from the youtube Del Ray video ;) .
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 4, 2010 07:16PM)
Hello Haven

Once you understand the workings, with a little work you could probably adapt this to another back. keep in mind that materials and surface texture a critical issues here. Which is also one of the reasons for the paper feet. A specific paper is used that has the correct texture for surface tension issues on the bag. We will be including a modified naked little man presentation that will give you the look I think you want. As far as size goes..He can be made maybe a third bigger,but then you have weight and traction issues. I don't know if that's big enough to work in your venue or not.

Truth Teller. Any way you could send us anymore info on Del Rey's effect? I mentioned it to Paul and its the first he's heard about it. Would like to give proper credit and share any details that are available and appropriate.

Janet Harris (AG)

Posted: Jan 4, 2010 8:24pm
Wow, lots of typos in my above post. I've got to get more sleep! Want to be clear that the third-size larger little man will be fine. Its when your start building him larger than that is when you might have issues.

J
Message: Posted by: FredNarlo (Jan 4, 2010 07:45PM)
PHSIS...can you give us just one haiku?! The demo is a great thing, a haiku is such a small request. Or maybe a haiku from Paul himself?
Message: Posted by: Jv (Jan 4, 2010 07:45PM)
@David Leon Love the 'Frankenstein' presentation idea, but too bad that I can't affored 'Little Man', yet :'(

Jv
Message: Posted by: ScottLeavitt (Jan 4, 2010 08:33PM)
For those who like things that go bump in the night, how about borrowing objects from several folks...with one person also donating a lock of hair, which is kneeded into the clay. Tell a story of the Golem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem)...and let the small figure walk past the objects, stopping and turning at the object of the person who was targeted by his maker...

waiting for reviews, but I'm thrilled with what Paul's released...
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Jan 4, 2010 08:40PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-04 18:24, Al Straker wrote:
Congratulations to the PH team Little Man indeed has walked a fine walk.

I personally intend to spend some time developing Little Man into an emotionally charged highlight and really think this has wonderful symbolic magical overtones to explore. It has really got me thinking about the deeper context and symbolism of the magic at work here... creation of life theme - just doesn't get much better or more meaningful. If you can get people involved in creating Little Man and achieve a 'buy in' on the personal attachment to the little guy as well as embellish the atmosphere with music, a natural and meaningful story and what PH would probably call 'mental feelies' then the impact of Little Man's first few steps should potentially bring a tear to the eye of even the hardest heart.

Thanks again PH & team!

Al
[/quote]

Good post, Al!

Robert
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jan 4, 2010 08:52PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-04 00:28, Doug Lippert wrote:
Can you have multiple Little Man's walking at the same time?

A "little" army...in other words. ;)
[/quote]

Like bringing the [url=http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/][b]Chinese Terracotta Wrriors[/b][/url] to life. Nice thinking! :)

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: ScottLeavitt (Jan 4, 2010 09:13PM)
Building on Al's great ideas, some good concepts/philosophies can be applied from Jason's League of Invisible Friends in Method Impossible II...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=344334&forum=159&9
Message: Posted by: Hansel (Jan 4, 2010 10:26PM)
Sorry...Im dissapointed!
Message: Posted by: Thetruthteller (Jan 4, 2010 10:37PM)
Since the other thread got locked I'd still like to know

Can it be done with just the bag sitting on the table or does the container of clay have to be on the table as well?

If so can he walk away from the container or only towards it?

Could the container be replaced with a real can of Play-doh or possibly something a little more thematic than a plastic tub?
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jan 4, 2010 10:50PM)
I have mixed feelings about this. I think that the animation looks good considering the price but don't like the cluttered feel of the box, the bag and so on. I'd also like to find out more about how much control/options you can have over where/how far the LM can go.

jeff
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Jan 4, 2010 11:12PM)
I'd say he could travel the length of the bag!
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 4, 2010 11:42PM)
Hello Truth Teller

As far as the basic performing conditions go..what you see on the demo is what you get. The clay container is actually a genuine off the shelf plastic container of kids clay..so this is a normal object in the world of kids clay. The size and shape of the container is important so the only change you could easily make to it would be to change the label. Although with work you could probably adapt it to another type of box.

There's also been a few questions about what happens if someone snatches little man in mid walk. This would be okay and not expose anything. Although its not recommended as you've lost control of the presentation and whatever the final payoff might be. So we'll include some presentation tips that will encourage them to let Little Man finish his job.

j

Posted: Jan 5, 2010 12:52am
Hello GreatSmartini

You can stop little man any time you want during his walk. You just won't be able to have him start walking a second time. Also..on the selecto-matic turn option, you can set it so Little Man turns, finds the object, then falls down.

j
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jan 5, 2010 12:25AM)
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 5, 2010 01:24AM)
Being that I would of been performing this on stage where no one would be examining my props, I was expecting that Little Man would actually walk as in taking actual steps. Or, at least lifting one side and then the other. That was the part that had my original attention and enthusiasm. Capitalizing, "YES, HE ACTUALLY WALKS" is what convinced me that he would actually portray this. Otherwise, the effect can be accomplished with more simple methods to create the same effect of the gliding motion. Hense the reason for my personal disappointment after seeing the demo. (KISS)

I had a whole routine planned out about God creating man, man walking away from God, man falling, and God restoring man. Add background music, lighting effects, the whole works. I can still accomplish this but with another easier and less expensive method. Having Little Man actually lift his feet would of been the icing on the cake.

It would of been an added bonus if I could of had my clay guy actually lift his feet in walking movement, and truly an advancement in the art of magic. But I'll have to do with my original idea using my own method.

I also perform on the streets, but as I have read, that would not be workable due to needing the right type of surface for it to perform on.

I do hope this will work well for those who do close-up in restaurants and other similiar venues where examing the clay and props is essential to getting the strong reactions.

I look forward to one day reading the reviews. I always remain open minded.
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 5, 2010 02:07AM)
Hello Gospel Dan. Appreciate your open mind on this. Just a note, you could do this on the streets as long as you have a reasonably flat surface to place the bag onto.

J
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 5, 2010 02:26AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-05 02:24, Gospel Dan wrote:
I look forward to one day reading the reviews. I always remain open minded.
[/quote]
...or, some might say, single-minded! But DG, you have single-handedly caused this thread to be VERY long (and dull). No offense meant, but you might want to consider how many times folks are prepared to re-read the same opinion.
Little Man is everything I expected. It's pretty much exactly what I imagined when I read the ad.
He looks funny, the principle and logic of the presentation is fantastic, and this is guaranteed to play well for kids and family groups. Great, that's my principle audience....and I'll be using mine a LOT, no doubt.
Sure, the method isn't exactly original, but a variation of an already-established principle (see the football game). And there IS a way to have the little feet lifting up, you could even have Little Man do somersaults and everything. Almost exactly the same method, but much more sophisticated (clever construction of e*****o-m******c f****s) - in my wildest dreams I'd never expect to get something that complex for $300.
I'm delighted that this doesn't appeal to everyone - weekend warriors probably couldn't justify the cost - but to workers, this is likely to become a gem. Also, a lovely item to include in a promotional video. The one drawback is that kids will definitely remember Little Man - but will they remember who performed it?
The more I think about the possibilities with this, the more excited I am. What a fantastic way to start 2010!
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Spackle666 (Jan 5, 2010 03:11AM)
Well, I like so many others am disappointed. Little man doesn't walk, he shuffles. Saddly, the over-statment of LM taking "actual steps" was sadly misleading and unneccessary. But the over hype hasn't spoiled it as much as the actual presentaional limitations do. Personally, I think the bag and box of clay set a cluttered and unnatural stage. I think the animation of LM should be the focus of the effect, but perhaps that is too much to ask.

Well, congratulations ro PH and crew. I am sure it will be some sort of success.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 5, 2010 03:15AM)
Thanks Janet for letting me know about the reasonable flat surfaces.
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jan 5, 2010 04:20AM)
Janet, is it possible to get John Dough to turn as his first movement? I'm liking the idea that he would turn to face someone, and then walk towards him.
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 5, 2010 04:25AM)
You can set him on the bag at an angle...maybe a quarter turn away from the can (instead of pointing directly at the can). His first movement would then turn him toward the can..where he would then keep on moving in that direction. Not sure if this gives you what you need. Hope this helps.

J
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jan 5, 2010 04:49AM)
Thanks, Janet, that's probably enough to make the idea work.

My gosh, I can't believe you answered this question at this hour. Get some sleep, will you?
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 5, 2010 06:25AM)
On the subject of his walking, although somewhat disappointed I don't think I ever expected him to lift his feet like Dan expected. What I did expect was one foot to move forward at a time as opposed to rotating each side to create movement. I'd also like him to move a little further as I'm concerned the lengthy making process may prove to make the payoff underwhelming.

Thanks must go to Janet for fielding all the questions and criticism, I'm going to keep my pre-order but I am a little concerned than an improved v2 will be released in the near future where many of the criticisms are rectified and I'll feel like a wasted my money on the prototype.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Jan 5, 2010 06:43AM)
Sorry I was also disappointed when seeing the demo first.
if it slides backwards you can sell it at least as a moonwalk.
the bag may perceive the high price but the actual walk is'nt a walk!
it really looks like some clay is pulled across a black paper bag.

all the best
Message: Posted by: Lord Freddie (Jan 5, 2010 10:37AM)
I was also terribly disappointed when I saw the video. To claim he walks step by step is very misleading. He glides a few inches as if there is something m******c inside him and there is a strong m****t nearby. For the price, I'll give this a miss and I was hoping it would be something far more impressive than it appears to be.

I feel sorry for those that pre-ordered it.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 5, 2010 10:47AM)
Potty said, "No offense meant, but you might want to consider how many times folks are prepared to re-read the same opinion."

No offense taken.(lol)

I'm willing to walk in the rain, so you won't hear me complain about getting wet.
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Jan 5, 2010 11:16AM)
Lord Freddie, no need to feel sorry for those that pre ordered... for one thing they can get their money refunded and not everyone sees it the same way you do.
Many have come up with performance ideas they are excited about. Even Bob Cassidy in the locked thread said Little Man is, "excellent and has fantastic possibilities."
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Jan 5, 2010 12:15PM)
It's a neat little effect but as I said for $300 I didn't expect him to take actual steps... I just wish he could walk on any flat surface and not just on top of the small size BA baggy.
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Jan 5, 2010 12:47PM)
I'm with you on the bag thing but that is really my only disappointment, albeit a small one.

I had never planned to buy this effect but after watching the demo, I was very impressed and have already started dreaming up presentation ideas. I may end up getting this afterall.
Message: Posted by: professorwhut (Jan 5, 2010 01:35PM)
Until we get some reviews of folks actually performing this for real people, It is hard to speculate the level of astonishment this effect will render. I have a hard time thinking like a laymen, when it comes to this sort of thing. Having said that, I must admit that I had built up unrealistic expectations in my mind of what it would look like. I do however think that a more polished video demo might have helped.
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Jan 5, 2010 01:53PM)
I was also let down by the demo.

One would have expected a little more articulation from the character but he looked like he was being pulled by 2 invisible threads, each on either side of him. ( yes I know that's not the method)
Message: Posted by: DougNicols (Jan 5, 2010 02:18PM)
Reminds me of Rock 'Em, Sock 'Em Robots.
Message: Posted by: Martello (Jan 5, 2010 02:57PM)
I will also add my concern about the bag. Some friends that I have who do not visit this forum, saw the video and were focused on the bag! Why the bag? The first comment from a spectator will be "make him do it without the bag". I really have no problem with the rest of this effect.

Arthur
Message: Posted by: Ben Harris (Jan 5, 2010 03:12PM)
A paper slip cover on a small book may be an alternate approach. You then have a portable "flat surface" and if the book is appropriately titled, a lovely little stage for him to perform upon. Just thinking out loud!

Benny
Message: Posted by: Martello (Jan 5, 2010 03:24PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-05 16:12, Ben Harris wrote:
A paper slip cover on a small book may be an alternate approach. You then have a portable "flat surface" and if the book is appropriately titled, a lovely little stage for him to perform upon. Just thinking out loud!

Benny
[/quote]


great idea Ben!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 5, 2010 05:17PM)
... must test the theory that bad Haiku can lock a thread... this could be useful...

Some like it... some not.
It's what you make of it, yes?
Vote with your wallet.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 5, 2010 05:21PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-05 15:57, Martello wrote:
I will also add my concern about the bag. Some friends that I have who do not visit this forum, saw the video and were focused on the bag! Why the bag? The first comment from a spectator will be "make him do it without the bag". I really have no problem with the rest of this effect.

Arthur
[/quote]
....which is where routining comes in. Your friends have seen the effect only, not a full presentation. By telling a story as you build your John Dough, you will draw the spectators in. The most important part of the animation (in my opinion) is that it should be completely unexpected. It would possibly work best if the magi didn't even see the movement at first. Act the part right, and your audience will laugh, not demand to examine your props.
Really, I'm quite sure this is a worker. As usual though, it must be well-routined and presented in a series of effects, not as a stand-alone demonstration of your magical ability.
Potty ;)
Message: Posted by: johndraws (Jan 5, 2010 10:42PM)
I hope this is not taken as a jab. There are types of magicians that never say anything negative because they infact, never want anything negative said about their own effects or presentation. I am not that kind of guy.There are also people that are just plain cruel. This is strictly meant as observations not as a performer (even though I do perform), but more importantly a fan.

If feedback is what Paul Harris would like then here is my feedback. Let it be known that I was immensely looking forward to this trailer. At first read of the very descriptive effect, I had to have it. How could you not want an effect that seemingly brings life to an inanimated object. The add originally claimed that the little man would be observed by all, taking steps. Nothing added to the clay, hands are clean before and after...everything can be inspected. It was a heavy order to fill. One that a local Magic shop owner and performer warned me against..."It is to good to be true." Is what he told me. His insight perceived this as a man using this as bait, to get you to view other items. Be that as it may, or may not.I was holding out, to be impressed. To prove him wrong.
My first view of the trailer. It was nice to see a video that was just an honest video shoot all the way through. No distracting or overly creative editing to mention. What you see is apparently what you will get. As I eagerly watched...I was immediately disappointed. Then got over it...OK I expected to much. I liked the reveal. I liked the fact that you could walk away...it can be examined. I liked many things that I could list on paper. Howerver...the disappointments.
My first disappointment when watching the video was that it
A. Did not take actual steps or even remotely look like it. Take that away....take the fact that it was built up in my mind out of the picture. Over all. It simply was not amazing. Even if the actual workings were not what it looked like.It simply was clever...and not jaw dropping.
I know this is nothing new and has been stated by many. Whether this is the actual workings of it or not doesn't matter. The theme in my mind now is that it looks like a clever engineered toy. It simply registers as a mechanical way of getting this clay figure to slide in a shuffle like manner. Every Magician wants to rid the possibility of magnets, strings or other such devices. Even if those ways are not the actual workings of it...it appears to be guessed by many. So that is a wall.Does this make it a terrible thing? No...but I'll be darned if I have to go into an in depth discussion with the person next to me about what he THOUGHT he saw.
I am willing to bet Paul will never make the mistake of announcing such a project in advance the same way again. It is NOT the perception people had in their mind. The perception that was molded and shaped by the very description of the add. So again...mistake or grossly exaggerated description, either way It is forgiven. However, it still did not seem magical. Clever? Yes.
B. Again even though it may not have much to do with the effect, something was added to the clay. It has been described as nothing needs to be added but it will be important to limit friction with the clay and the surface it will shuffle against. If a naked version is available...why was it not shown first? Was it because it did not work as well? Not as strong?

So again...nothing new with the reasons for the disappointment. But what I wanted to add in my own words was the simple fact that even if the actual workings of the effect are different than what looks like is taking place. It still looks mechanical...not magical. So knowing all that.It is a clever object. I love that it can be examined. I love the variety and original reveals that can happen. It just does not come across as magical in this video. Even if I had never read the pre-release write up. Even my kids and wife thought it was cool...but not magical. They were not "wowed". So...IMO no ammount of patter will change what it looks like it is doing.
Will I buy it? Good question. If I do...why? As a collectors piece? Probably. Will I use it? I just don't know. I had very original patter that I though would be perfect. If I have to convince myself to buy it, because of great engineering and not that it looks great...It may just not be worth it.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jan 6, 2010 12:07AM)
Wow...

I gotta tell ya, I too, was disappointed with the video--reminded me of the old "electric football" game from my youth. For $300, I'm gonna pass, but having seen the demo, I'm afraid I would pass even it was $30. I guess it's kinda cute, but regardless of the method, I just didn't find the effect at all magical. My wife, who is a very good spectator and enjoys watching magic, felt the same way.

Of course, that's only MY opinion--if you can use this to amaze and entertain, you should definitely go for it. As mandarin said, vote with your wallet.
Message: Posted by: markmiller (Jan 6, 2010 12:49AM)
I wonder how different reactions might have been had there not been any advance hype?
Message: Posted by: tommeepickles (Jan 6, 2010 01:42AM)
I think if it was done with something other than clay, it would lend to a better effect. The problem in my eyes is that people will assume that the clay is flexible so it should walk. If it was done with a weeble-wobble or a lego man it might be better since they are inanimate objects. With also the right hookup, thread would be ok in the effect. Maybe get Bruno Copin and some lego people, we can have a lego army reveal a miniature tiger.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 6, 2010 01:59AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 01:49, markmiller wrote:
I wonder how different reactions might have been had there not been any advance hype?
[/quote]

I was kinda thinking the same thing, but more along the lines of ,"What would some of the reactions of been if it WASN'T a Paul Harris effect?"

Tommeepickles said,"I think if it was done with something other than clay, it would lend to a better effect."

Like a mouse?
Message: Posted by: ebinary (Jan 6, 2010 03:59AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 02:42, tommeepickles wrote:
I think if it was done with something other than clay, it would lend to a better effect. The problem in my eyes is that people will assume that the clay is flexible so it should walk. If it was done with a weeble-wobble or a lego man it might be better since they are inanimate objects. With also the right hookup, thread would be ok in the effect. Maybe get Bruno Copin and some lego people, we can have a lego army reveal a miniature tiger.
[/quote]

Good idea on Lego... there would be no expectation of joints. Those who think Gumby didn't bend his legs need to go back and watch Gumby videos (he used an invisible-skateboard-style movement, with one leg kicking).

However, I have a feeling that the fact that you have a mostly full container of clay participating in the effect may have something to do with the inspectability at the end. Who is going to actually dig all the clay out of a container to see it there is a mechanism at the bottom? The same would not be true of lego, you'd just dump it all out and have an "empty" container to inspect.

I feel this trick would not have had much debate at all if the demo had been available at the same time as the narrative. It's just that we all loved the narrative and the reality doesn't quite measure up, IMHO.

I think what we need is for someone to develop a clay figure that actually does walk, because we all loved the narrative.
Message: Posted by: Darius666 (Jan 6, 2010 05:52AM)
I'm gonna come across as a Paul Harris fan boy but this looks ******* amazing. I just don't get some of the negative comments this is getting.

I mean people saying it is gliding, not walking. It is b****y not gliding, stop being stupid! So his legs don't lift up individually, but that doesn't matter. It looks like it walks like a penguin. It looks great and will fry laymen. If someone says to you during a performance "hey, that ain't proper walking" then you should give up magic and take up stamp collecting.

The bag, not an issue with this. You carry everything in it, you take everything out and use it as your 'stage' for the trick. You don't need to justify it, don't even mention it. Any real performer will tell you laymen just don't pick up on this stuff, and even if they did, its examinable!

And can we stop whining about how long the demo took to make, it is an old topic and it's here now and that is all that matters. This demo more than lives up to what I expected.

And lastly, it's Paul Harris for god sake!!!

Darius
Message: Posted by: Lord Freddie (Jan 6, 2010 06:48AM)
It won't fry laymen.

They'll think you have got a magnet.


"Laymen" are not as stupid as you patronisingly assume.
Message: Posted by: JPK (Jan 6, 2010 07:40AM)
Good morning.
When I first heard of this effect I was thinking a Voo-Doo type effect. I came up with some differant ways of presenting it in that style.
After seeing the demo, which I think is quite nice, I thought about the movie "THe Golden Voyage of Sinbad." There is a part where the evil guy (Tom Baker), takes this critter, some kind of goblin/bat thing that appears to be not alive. He drips some of his blood on it and it comes to life. He then send it out so find Sinbad.
I can see John Dough being brought to life in a similar fashion and sent out to find the object selected by a spec.
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 6, 2010 08:14AM)
I still love the idea of this effect but it's the walk that still worries me. It reminds me of when I was a kid and I had a pair of magnetic lady bugs, one was placed on a piece of paper or card, the other underneath which is used to move the top one in a jerky fashion.

The idea that the spectator can make the Little Man and he walks is amazing, it's genius but if it looks like magnetic clay (even if it's not) being dragged by magnets hidden in a bag then we have a problem. If only PHP could get one leg to "lurch" forward at a time, even if it doesn't leave the bag, then we could have something amazing on our hands.
Message: Posted by: Darius666 (Jan 6, 2010 08:45AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 07:48, Lord Freddie wrote:
It won't fry laymen.

They'll think you have got a magnet.


"Laymen" are not as stupid as you patronisingly assume.
[/quote]

And at what point did I say laymen are stupid? They are much more inteligent than most of the magicians who post on here. The way little man moves does not look like a magnet. If it did, it would just slide across the table. Laymen are not 'stupid' as you put it to come to such conclusions.
Message: Posted by: Lord Freddie (Jan 6, 2010 09:44AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 09:45, MagicMcQuade wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 07:48, Lord Freddie wrote:
It won't fry laymen.

They'll think you have got a magnet.


"Laymen" are not as stupid as you patronisingly assume.
[/quote]

And at what point did I say laymen are stupid? They are much more inteligent than most of the magicians who post on here. The way little man moves does not look like a magnet. If it did, it would just slide across the table. Laymen are not 'stupid' as you put it to come to such conclusions.
[/quote]

To assume that laymen, who generally don't know who Paul Harris is, would think this is "amazing" is implying that they are stupid.
It DOES not walk, it quite clearly glides and the advertising blurb promises so much more and almost implies that it looks like it has come to life.

I had high hopes for this but when I saw how poor the video (filmed under controlled conditions) was then it made me think how bad it would look in the field.

Although the price is steep, this doesn't look like a workers effect, more like a toy for a bedroom magician to show Mum & Dad and little brother.

If Paul Harris wasn't involved it would be ridiculed from all corners rather than the brown nosing going on here. That demo is bl**dy awful!
Message: Posted by: Darius666 (Jan 6, 2010 10:15AM)
If laymen go crazy over a colour change, then I think animating a play dough figure that you just made in front of them will fool them.

As long as their are no restrictions that we do not no about this will go into my professional work.

And why is anything positive perceived as brown nosing? Paul Harris is one of the best creators out there but you have to remember there are three other names on Little Man. Without Paul Harris on board, this would still be awesome.

And can we drop the it's walking/it's gliding argument. If you want to be sad and go and look up definitions it probably isn't technically doing either. It is clearly not gliding. I would say it has kind of a penguin walk in my opinion (idea for a batman theme :-O)
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Jan 6, 2010 10:22AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZzLAsHiGHU
that's animation nowadays. little man was animation around 18th century.
why are magicians not taken seriously? oh yeah cause sliding clay is a miracle
Message: Posted by: Lord Freddie (Jan 6, 2010 10:24AM)
Paul Harris has done some fantastic stuff in the past, correct, but that doesn't mean anything he's involved with is fantastic just because it's HIM.

The advert says that it comes to life and walks "step by step". I don't see the feet move individually of each other. They are together at all times and a bit of clay sliding across a table is not "coming to life".

I really did expect more from this. I really hoped it would be fantastic. But if THAT is the demo then what would it look like for real? No one has actually seen it in person and this is all we have to go by.

A colour change stuns a spectator if it's executed well as there is nowhere for them to go logically. This rubbish has a big arrow pointing at possible methods.


Go ahead, waste your money. And when you open the box you can tell me I was right all along.
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Jan 6, 2010 10:28AM)
The movement in itself is probably getting a little too much criticism. Whilst I understand the arguments on terminology in the ads and hate misleading ads as much as the next person I can't say I ever expected some kind of claymation effect where one little footsie gets lifted up and moved forward.

Yep he's not technically walking but he isn't gliding either. I think this slight side to side shuffle is probably the best that you could expect ( outside witchcraft) and it is okay.

The issue for me is the clutter. What I am not sure about is, if I was a spectator sat at a table and not viewing this in extreme close up like the demo, then I would see a little 5 or 6 inch tableau of the Little Man stood on a bag walking towards a box, with the lid thrown in for good measure as well. It just has the vibes for me of one of this little magnetic dioramas such as the ice rink christmas dioramas with moving magnetic figures that seem so popular nowadays. It this restricted "stage" for the Little Mans performance that worries me most. However this was laid out in the ad---the bag bit anyway
Message: Posted by: ebinary (Jan 6, 2010 10:46AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 11:22, Joshua Barrett wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZzLAsHiGHU
that's animation nowadays. little man was animation around 18th century.
why are magicians not taken seriously? oh yeah cause sliding clay is a miracle
[/quote]

OMG - now that was amazing. This is without a doubt the first time I've seen robots actually move as well as humans. Better, really. These things make C3PO look worse than Steve Wozniak on Dancing With the Stars.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 6, 2010 11:00AM)
I'm surprised that those who think Little Man is "bloody awful", "rubbish", and "a waste of money", can be bothered to post here, since they obviously don't like the effect.
And I'd suggest it rather amateurish to make such harsh criticisms without actually witnessing a live performance, but hey, whatever.
I have no doubts I'll be getting massive reactions from this. Since I'll be filming a lot of walkabout magic this year, expect to see my John Dough in my promo video before long.
I rather like the ungainly "walk". And somehow, I suspect I'll quickly find a way to overcome the "shoe" problem. Animating Lego would be just plain dull compared to a lump of clay. Remember, the clay is moulded in front of the audience. If you did sneak a m****t in there, they didn't see it.
As for clutter, sure it would be nice to be cleaner, and this factor will certainly decide how often I use Little Man.
I will mostly be performing this for family groups, and I'm certain that it will get huge reactions, as I already use something with a similar impact and motivation. Giving away the clay at the end, either rolled into a ball, or the actual figure, is a great give-away and convincer. They can look for m*****s, and check the clay to see if it's "special". Of course, it's just a lump of clay. I kinda think that makes for a FANTASTIC routine, with a great convincer, and something for the kids to remember you.
They will be making Little Men and trying to make them walk for weeks.....
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 6, 2010 11:38AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 12:00, Potty the Pirate wrote:
And I'd suggest it rather amateurish to make such harsh criticisms without actually witnessing a live performance, but hey, whatever.
Potty :)
[/quote]

I would suppose that the same thing could be said about some of those who are pro-Little Man without ever seeing a live performance either.

Not all those who are pro-Little Man feel a need to use insults and bash those who have a negative opinion of Little Man, but I have seen a select few who don't seem to understand what this forum is for, and who feel compelled to attack or insult someone for stating their personal opinions.

Find me one person who is not big on Little Man who has resorted to personal insults to those who are pro-Little Man?( and not a post of retaliation either) I can find several posts of those who insult and attack on those who don't like Little Man, or who are not impressed with it. That to me speaks volumes.

There are different opinions that are being discussed for both sides. I have enjoyed reading both sides, except the bullying, and name calling. I think we would all do better if we stop attacking those who share a different opinion.

Dan
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Jan 6, 2010 12:12PM)
I can't speak for Potty, but in the same vein, I wonder why some people make repeted posts just to put the product down. Is there some sort of agenda or purpose? Are they hoping to sway people? Is there anger because some really like it? To each their own I guess.
Message: Posted by: Titanas (Jan 6, 2010 12:34PM)
Just watched the robot dancing.
It was amazing, BUT... These robots price is not $300 and they are not examinable.

I loved the way Little Man looks and the fact that you create LM with the spectator and its examinable at the end is a huge plus.
Its funny how some people complaining about the walking as if they ve seen another man from clay walking better.
Bests,
Titanas
Message: Posted by: runawayjag (Jan 6, 2010 12:38PM)
The unfortunate thing is that the action looks like a magnet is making the little doll shuffle, even if it is not, and that is exactly what spectators will think. So, I think the mystery element is gone, no matter how clever the actual method really is. It's often been said that a laymen doesn't need to know exactly how an effect is done. He only needs to know when it was done to erase the mystery element. Well, this seems to be a case where just thinking he knows how it's done will take away the mystery.

So, that leaves the performer to create an entertaining routine around the weak, but charming action and add an element of mystery to it. For example, in the demo video the "mystery" message appears after the flash paper is lit. Spectators would be fooled by that.

To this day I still perform the Bionic Bunny, which I had Anverdi make for me decades ago (it is not the same as the Anverdi electronic bunnies you may have seen on the internet.) Now, obviously, it is [b]no[/b] mystery how the little bunny moves about. I mean he [b]looks[/b] like a mechanical miniature techno robot. But, it [b]is[/b] a mystery how he finds the chosen card. Another similar effect is the classic Snake Basket. The actual animation of the snake is no mystery. It is what he does that adds the magic.

What seems to have made this such a disappointment is that rather than simply saying a little clay man is molded in front of the audience and then he walks about, the ad suggested a more impressive effect suggesting he "comes alive." In fact, it specifically states, "..a lump of clay comes to life..." Now, of course we didn't really think that means he eats, sleeps, drives a car, pays bills, etc, but that statement does definitely suggest a little more animation than a shuffle. If the Snake Basket had been advertised as a toy snake being shown and examined and then tossed into a basket and then the performer imbues him with life, I'm sure much more animation than a simple up and down motion with an occasional turn would have been expected by potential buyers.

I think this is one prop that is [b]really[/b] reliant on the performer's presentational skills to make it good.
Message: Posted by: Liam Montier (Jan 6, 2010 01:01PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 12:38, Gospel Dan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 12:00, Potty the Pirate wrote:
And I'd suggest it rather amateurish to make such harsh criticisms without actually witnessing a live performance, but hey, whatever.
Potty :)
[/quote]

I would suppose that the same thing could be said about some of those who are pro-Little Man without ever seeing a live performance either.

Not all those who are pro-Little Man feel a need to use insults and bash those who have a negative opinion of Little Man, but I have seen a select few who don't seem to understand what this forum is for, and who feel compelled to attack or insult someone for stating their personal opinions.

Find me one person who is not big on Little Man who has resorted to personal insults to those who are pro-Little Man?( and not a post of retaliation either) I can find several posts of those who insult and attack on those who don't like Little Man, or who are not impressed with it. That to me speaks volumes.

There are different opinions that are being discussed for both sides. I have enjoyed reading both sides, except the bullying, and name calling. I think we would all do better if we stop attacking those who share a different opinion.

Dan
[/quote]

I suspect it partially comes through frustration, of reading the same few authors posting the same negative opinions that have been made over and over. I don't think anything really offensive has been said, it's more petty to be honest.

There shouldn't be a "them and us" attitude to this - either your performing character and style will mean this effect is for you, or it will mean it won't. There is nothing right or wrong about either situation.

I like Ben Harris's idea of the dust jacket that was mentioned earlier. Perhaps the Little Man can be placed on a pile of books, and walk towards one - to reveal a selected book? Or maybe we can make him hold a pen, and mark a book or page as he walks and/or turns?

When I've got the cash together, I'm looking forward to using this to perform my Visual Voodoo routine, that was in Reel Magic a while back. Until then, here's hoping it's not far from release. Well, some of us anyway xD
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 6, 2010 02:40PM)
A very good post Liam Montier. Point well taken. :)
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Jan 6, 2010 02:41PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 14:01, Liam Montier wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 12:38, Gospel Dan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 12:00, Potty the Pirate wrote:
And I'd suggest it rather amateurish to make such harsh criticisms without actually witnessing a live performance, but hey, whatever.
Potty :)
[/quote]

I would suppose that the same thing could be said about some of those who are pro-Little Man without ever seeing a live performance either.

Not all those who are pro-Little Man feel a need to use insults and bash those who have a negative opinion of Little Man, but I have seen a select few who don't seem to understand what this forum is for, and who feel compelled to attack or insult someone for stating their personal opinions.

Find me one person who is not big on Little Man who has resorted to personal insults to those who are pro-Little Man?( and not a post of retaliation either) I can find several posts of those who insult and attack on those who don't like Little Man, or who are not impressed with it. That to me speaks volumes.

There are different opinions that are being discussed for both sides. I have enjoyed reading both sides, except the bullying, and name calling. I think we would all do better if we stop attacking those who share a different opinion.

Dan
[/quote]

I suspect it partially comes through frustration, of reading the same few authors posting the same negative opinions that have been made over and over. I don't think anything really offensive has been said, it's more petty to be honest.

There shouldn't be a "them and us" attitude to this - either your performing character and style will mean this effect is for you, or it will mean it won't. There is nothing right or wrong about either situation.

I like Ben Harris's idea of the dust jacket that was mentioned earlier. Perhaps the Little Man can be placed on a pile of books, and walk towards one - to reveal a selected book? Or maybe we can make him hold a pen, and mark a book or page as he walks and/or turns?

When I've got the cash together, I'm looking forward to using this to perform my Visual Voodoo routine, that was in Reel Magic a while back. Until then, here's hoping it's not far from release. Well, some of us anyway xD
[/quote]



the them and us things seems to happen a lot here.

someone asked why someone who does not like it with come here.
well this is a magic discussion board, so I come here as others do, for the enjoyment of discussion.

I think what happens is that when some one does like something, and someone else does not people feel like their likes or beliefs are being attacked or insulted so it gets personal, which is rather ironic with the anonymous nature of internet discussion
Message: Posted by: MarianoG (Jan 6, 2010 03:05PM)
I think this is a cool effect, for the right type of audience.
Message: Posted by: blackbogle (Jan 6, 2010 04:36PM)
I smiled when I saw the demo. This got my creative juices flowing. This could be fun, mysterious or both depending on the presentation.
The spectators can get involved in making, dressing and naming the little man allowing for lots of interaction between magician and audience. The animation of the little man could result in laughter, aahs, head scratching, etc. If the method is obvious or guessable, there is still a revelation to come via flash paper, object etc.
As MarionoG commented, for the right audience this could be cool, especially with the right presentation. Of course in the wrong environment with unimaginative presentation this could be awful. I guess rather than relying on a Youtube demo it will be interesting to hear laypeople reactions from people who purchased this effect to see if this is value for money.
Message: Posted by: BIlly James (Jan 6, 2010 04:50PM)
This really didn't seem to be my cup o' tea from the onset. However I was interested to see how it would play out.

To my mind the ad copy (and expectations) were about an effect that would lead the spectators to say -

"Wow, that clay man can move!"

...as opposed to...

"Wow, he is somehow moving that clay man!"

With that said, best of luck to those who choose to take this clay moving effect to the miracle level.

:)
Message: Posted by: Ollie1235 (Jan 6, 2010 05:01PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 17:50, BIlly James wrote:
This really didn't seem to be my cup o' tea from the onset. However I was interested to see how it would play out.

To my mind the ad copy (and expectations) were about an effect that would lead the spectators to say -

"Wow, that clay man can move!"

...as opposed to...

"Wow, he is somehow moving that clay man!"

With that said, best of luck to those who choose to take this clay moving effect to the miracle level.

:)
[/quote]

Eloquently said Billy. When you consider the restrictions, it doesn't hold much over many other PK effects, at a much lower price.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jan 6, 2010 07:36PM)
I agree 100% with what runawayjag says above.

At the bottom line, I believe that audiences will not be astonished by the walking and instead will view it as an amusing puzzle. For the effect to be a worker, it needs a very entertaining presentation and the walking needs to be a means to an end instead of an end itself (just as Del's mouse effect was incredibly entertainng, with the mouse walking as a means to an end). Walking to light the flash paper, which reveals the spectator's initials, is one example.

Is it worth $300? It will be to some and it won't be to others, because worth is subjective. Anything is worth nothing more or less than what someone's willing to pay for it.
Message: Posted by: markmiller (Jan 6, 2010 07:47PM)
Larry mentioned Del's mouse. I think the standard pitch item Magic Mouse is more animated and entertaining than Little Man.
Message: Posted by: Hansel (Jan 6, 2010 10:08PM)
Hello:
Im following this effect as the first ad that appears in Genni. I search for videos and I don't I found anything at that moment, but I need to confess that been a Paul Harris fan saved my $300 for get the effect.
I never been a fan of pre- orders, so I wait...and what I receive in the DEMO was " Especially Dissapointing".
The effect was not bad, but the description of the effect was ANOTHER KIND OF THING...probably very beauty to be true.
Im talking with my pal Reynold Alexander, another fan of Paul Harris and interested in the effect, and he look the effect with other eyes, with objective eyes...and he like it, Maybe don't buy it ( That was the idea of the Ad ) But if we see the effect deleting out of our minds the Ad in magazines...the effect is not bad and I Agree with him.
Im pretty sure that all the people that feels dissapointed with the demo ( IM incluided ) are people that have other expectations based on the AD description.
If they put in a Ad That the little man can walk...but in top of a bag...they don't receive many pre orders...also they use the word STEPS not SLIDES!
As always all my best...
Hansel!
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 7, 2010 12:00AM)
Hello Hansel

I am so sorry that you and others thought the ad was misleading. Many people interpret how little man moves as a walking action. This is how the mummy and frankenstein walk..and to Paul (obviously) this is how he thought a little man made of clay might walk. We really had no idea that the word "walk" and "step" would be such an issue. Paul always runs his ad copy by a handful of magicians to see if it reads accurately. And in this case it was approved. But as we're seeing here there is definately a wide spread of opinion on what those words mean to different people.

As far as him walking on the bag. That was specifically mentioned in the ad. My apologies if it wasn't written in a way that was clear to you.

So again, from Paul and myself..we stand by this effect 100%. We'll be showing you a lot more of little Man's potential in a more elaborate demo which will be released down the road. And for anyone who pre-ordered from PHP and is not completely happy with Little Man we encourage you to cancel your order and we will be more than happy to refund you money.

Deepy appreciate all the good thoughts and concerns that this demo has brought up. We will address as much of it as possible in the next demo (with live audiences)so you can see what this Little guy can do.

happies to all,

Janet (A.G.)
Message: Posted by: Hansel (Jan 7, 2010 12:24AM)
Janet:
Thanks for the response and all my best wishes,
Hansel!
Message: Posted by: Silvio Solaris (Jan 7, 2010 12:28AM)
I agree 100% with runawayjag's post.

In our millenium of rapid advancing technology and information flow, a clayfigure shuffling a few steps on top of a thick, black bag does not seem very magical at all. Paul Harris or not...

Let's say you would really have magical powers and could animate a 'lump of clay'...How would you do it? Like in the demo shown? I seriously doubt it.

Let's take a 'simple' effect for example: The Floating Bill. You borrow a bill from a spectator, crumple it into a ball (or not) and levitate it under their nose. Furthermore, you step away from it and it keeps hovering at the same spot.
Now you move back to it and wave your hands above the top, under the bottom and at the sides. It now floates to the floor and back into your hands. The audience gasps because in their eyes you just performed a real miracle with 'their' bill...

That's one of my favourite illusions and I had people tell me afterwards that they got goosebumps while watching it.

This is the magic I like to perform and reactions/emotions I am striving for.
My magic has to evoke total astonishment in the spectator. If I can't achieve that I have failed. If it's the performance I have to work harder on my part to get the effect to the level I am aiming for. If it is concerning the technical part of the effect (gaff/method/look) and I can't improve upon it...well then I don't purchase/perform it at all . Simple as that.

See, my universe might be different then yours. John Dough's universe perhaps differs from mine. Others might enjoy performing Little Man and get great reactions from their audience... I made my decision based on the technical aspect for now. If I see certain improvements that fit my parameters I might change my mind and give 'him' a try.
Message: Posted by: The great Gumbini (Jan 7, 2010 12:52AM)
You know a doctor would have a blast with this thread. Just a few things to consider as far as our Little Man is concerned. In order for him to "walk" as has been defined here he would need KNEES so he can bend them. Little Man has no knees---in real life if you have no knees you will shuffle like this and to you it would be walking.

But lets also remember another point. Now think about this. If you are really bringing to life a lump of clay do you really believe it will walk perfectly? When we send people into space for months on end with zero gravity and return them home have you ever seen the acclamation they go through to relearn how to walk? Now just picture for a moment a piece of CLAY that has NEVER been in a shape of a Little Man and has NEVER been alive and has never walked (and to top it off has NO KNEES, NO ANKLES and No experience in walking) how do you honestly picture this piece of clay walking? Remember we as Magicians HAVE to see in our minds how this would look in real life PRIOR to us ever being able to sell the idea to an audience.

I believe in the right hands this effect has great potential. But I would recommend it for people who have that certain imagination and can perform it in a way that people will believe they are seeing a piece of clay come to life. Always remember a very important rule in Magic and Mentalism---If you don't believe in what you are doing neither will your audience. This effect is a dream come true in the right hands.


Good magic to all,


Eric
Message: Posted by: jtmorris (Jan 7, 2010 12:55AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 07:48, Lord Freddie wrote:
It won't fry laymen.

They'll think you have got a magnet.
[/quote]

I completely agree. Regardless of how it is done and even if they find no evidence, they will think that you somehow hid the magnet.

However, if people realize that you are making Rocky the Raccoon move, the presentation is not lessened. Because the presentation is so good, who cares if it is real or robot, or stuffed. I think the same with little man. They will have a great presentation and the little man will add, even if they figure they know how it's done. And for those who have no guesses...well they are going to tell their friends that a magician made a little clay man walk (they won't say slide or glide, especially if you say "look he is walking" to your spectators - I highly doubt you will get into a discussion over semantics or the dictionary's definition of the word walk).
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jan 7, 2010 01:35AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 06:52, MagicMcQuade wrote:
Im gonna come across as a Paul Harris fan boy but this looks ******* amazing. I just don't get some of the negative comments this is getting.

I mean people saying it is gliding, not walking. It is b****y not gliding, stop being stupid! So his legs don't lift up individually, but that doesn't matter. It looks like it walks like a penguin. It looks great and will fry laymen. If someone says to you during a performance "hey, that ain't proper walking" then you should give up magic and take up stamp collecting.

The bag, not an issue with this. You carry everything in it, you take everything out and use it as your 'stage' for the trick. You don't need to justify it, don't even mention it. Any real performer will tell you laymen just don't pick up on this stuff, and even if they did, its examinable!

And can we stop whining about how long the demo took to make, it is an old topic and it's here now and that is all that matters. This demo more than lives up to what I expected.

And lastly, it's Paul Harris for god sake!!!

Darius
[/quote]
Excuse me, Darius, but I am a "real performer" and have been for 30 years, which, at least by the looks of your avatar, is longer than you've been alive. Until a few years ago, when I went into semi-retirement, I made 100% of my living performing in the real world, at restaurants 4 nights per week as well as several hundred non-restaurant gigs per year. As one of those "stupid" people who posted a "negative comment", I find your post insulting and offensive. I stand by my previous statement: I wouldn't give $30 for this item, much less $300. I have a problem with the setup, and I think the "walking" looks like the vibrating magnetic board from the old electric football game in the 70s. So according to you, I must not be a real performer, but rather a moron who should take up stamp collecting.

If you put something on the market, you have to be prepared for some criticism. I know this from personal experience, as I have sold a number of my items over the years. Some people loved them, some hated them. Not every item that comes out can be "the bestesr ever", now can it?

Further, there is nothing in the rules and etiquette of The Magic Café that says people can not voice a negative opinion about a product. I know a little something about those rules, having formerly been the Chief of Staff here for a number of years, in charge of enforcing the rules.

There is however, a rule about calling people names like "stupid". I suggest you phrase your posts more carefully in the future.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 7, 2010 01:41AM)
Lets use Frankenstein as an example since his name has come up a few times. When he walks he lifts his feet. His legs are stiff, but his feet lift up, one foot at a time. I thinks that is what most were expecting to see. Not knees bending, or the clay actually coming to life.

The first link below isn't of Frankenstein, but it shows knees don't need to bend to actually walk. I'm using this guy as an example because he demonstates more to the image of what most would think how Frankenstein walks.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6500065

In my opinion, no one played a better Frankenstein than the great Karloff. The following links shows Karloff as Frankenstein. Notice how he walks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTNN5h8CG_Y

Also, the whole walking and taking steps is just one aspect. The other of course is that as what many have already have stated, "The machanics doesn't look magical"

I have shown the demo to some friends who are not magicians, and although they thought it was cool, they quickly were saying the clay guy was gliding because of magnets or strings. They may very well be wrong, but because they believed they knew how it was done, there was no wonder or magical moment for them.

The last link I provide shows a baby's first steps. I couldn't resist because of the cute factor of this one. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr0bXVlBd3A&feature=related
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 7, 2010 02:05AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 12:38, Gospel Dan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 12:00, Potty the Pirate wrote:
And I'd suggest it rather amateurish to make such harsh criticisms without actually witnessing a live performance, but hey, whatever.
Potty :)
[/quote]
I would suppose that the same thing could be said about some of those who are pro-Little Man without ever seeing a live performance either.
[quote]
...this from someone who has little to say, but feels it needs to be repeated ad nauseam. The difference between harsh criticism and positive thinking is that one is very negative, and the other positive. Where some can't see the woods for the trees, others can see instantly the appeal and comedy of Little Man. To use terms like "rubbish" and "waste of money" is insulting to the manufacturer and to those who have enough experience to know that this will play well for them. Professional magicians should have more sense than that - and as many here at the Café are amateurs, I was merely observing that it's likely these comments came not from professional workers, but from part-timers and amateurs. Am I wrong? Enlighten me.
[quote]
Not all those who are pro-Little Man feel a need to use insults and bash those who have a negative opinion of Little Man, but I have seen a select few who don't seem to understand what this forum is for, and who feel compelled to attack or insult someone for stating their personal opinions.
Dan
[/quote]
I don't bash anyone, merely stating the facts, and my opinions. It's absolutely those who are anti-Little Man who are mud-slinging, and I don't understand why. There are plenty of awful effects out there to be slated - but this isn't one of them. So if I put up a demo with laughter, gasps, and shrieks, the effect gathering a large group, and playing brilliantly, will some of you chage your opinion?
Regarding m****s, the Little Man is handed out at the end for examination. With any other effect, this is sufficient to disprove the method. Why not so in this case? Perhaps some folks just can't bear to admit they like this effect, because they've spent so much time criticising Paul Harris before the demo even went up. I guess if you have so much negativity, it's hard to believe that some folks might actually make Little Man into a highlight of their close-up act.
I love the floating dollar bill, but I'd bet if you showed both effects (well presented) to a spectator, they'd be more impressed with "Little Man". The Floating Bill is "obviously" done with t****d - although the spectators never saw it, they will still suspect that's how it's done - so how does it differ in that respect to Little Man?
For the record, I have performed magic for 44 years, so I also have some experience of what I'm talking about.
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 7, 2010 02:26AM)
It's okay Potty, I'm here for you buddy. :)
Message: Posted by: surryhills (Jan 7, 2010 02:28AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 02:35, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
Excuse me, Darius, but I am a "real performer" and have been for 30 years, which, at least by the looks of your avatar, is longer than you've been alive. Until a few years ago, when I went into semi-retirement, I made 100% of my living performing in the real world, at restaurants 4 nights per week as well as several hundred non-restaurant gigs per year. As one of those "stupid" people who posted a "negative comment", I find your post insulting and offensive. I stand by my previous statement: I wouldn't give $30 for this item, much less $300. I have a problem with the setup, and I think the "walking" looks like the vibrating magnetic board from the old electric football game in the 70s. So according to you, I must not be a real performer, but rather a moron who should take up stamp collecting.

If you put something on the market, you have to be prepared for some criticism. I know this from personal experience, as I have sold a number of my items over the years. Some people loved them, some hated them. Not every item that comes out can be "the bestesr ever", now can it?

Further, there is nothing in the rules and etiquette of The Magic Café that says people can not voice a negative opinion about a product. I know a little something about those rules, having formerly been the Chief of Staff here for a number of years, in charge of enforcing the rules.

There is however, a rule about calling people names like "stupid". I suggest you phrase your posts more carefully in the future.
[/quote]

Word!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 7, 2010 02:30AM)
:)

Potty said, "I don't bash anyone, merely stating the facts, and my opinions."

I personally respect your opinions, and don't take anything you say personal, even if I don't always agree with your facts or opinions. But, I can only suggest that you may show some respect to others opinions, even if you don't like them, or feel disgusted by them.

I also don't think that because someone who performs magic part-time or maybe an amatuer makes them less important, or their opinion any less valid, weak, or without merit. You of all people should know that.
Message: Posted by: Lord Freddie (Jan 7, 2010 02:49AM)
People aren't "bashing" Little Man just to be negative. If it was a great as the misleadingly worded advertising claimed then I would have been first in the queue to buy one.
I eagerly awaited the demo just like anyone else and when I saw it, I had that moment of astonishment. Astonishment at how bad it looked and that people would pay $300. Does Paul Harris care about his reputation?

Just because someone has produced greatness in the past, doesn't mean they are exempt from criticism if they produce something that's not so great. We don't have to expect to class everything they do as a "work of genius2 when it quite clearly isn't.

Most of the people that buy this will be 18 year olds just into magic who believe they must buy it because "it's Paul Harris!".


Here's a little prediction for you. Most of these will end up in a cupboard after six months, wasting away. The sort of people that think spectators will be impressed by a sliding lump of clay have quite clearly not performed to REAL audiences in the REAL world. (By REAL audiences I mean not Mummy & Daddy and Uncle Brian)
Message: Posted by: Stucky (Jan 7, 2010 04:00AM)
Trick aside, the demo bored me greatly. Speaking as someone who knows something about video production, this could have been better and looked more professional. (tho' the dog at the end was funny, however the terrible sound effects were not)

It did not inspire me to buy is what I am getting at.

Hey Paul Harris, if you want to impress me and get my hard earned cash, then convince Michael Weber to release his play-doh bear routine! I would snap that up in a heartbeat.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 7, 2010 04:14AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 03:49, Lord Freddie wrote:
The sort of people that think spectators will be impressed by a sliding lump of clay have quite clearly not performed to REAL audiences in the REAL world. (By REAL audiences I mean not Mummy & Daddy and Uncle Brian)
[/quote]
....so, you only perform for adults who don't have kids, nephews or nieces? Such an audience is rather unique, and, I'd suggest far from a "normal" audience. Whatever your definition of a "REAL" audience is, I don't think I've ever worked at such an event. I perform for family audiences, kids, adults, at any and every event. In my area folks hire magicians for weddings, parties, public and corporate events, and to provide shows at amusement parks, hotels, on ships, festivals, etc. All of these audiences include plenty of mummies and daddies and uncles. With over 100 hours of close-up walkabout in my diary for 2010, I'm eagerly anticipating this product. I would NOT use Little Man for sdult-only audiences very often, I guess.
Some magicians rely on impressing their audiences with their skill and dexterity. Others concentrate on the entertainment value of magic within the greater context of a well-stuctured show. A mixture of both is the best of all, but if you forget to entertain, you may well come across as a "know-it-all". This product has high entertainment potential, but of course, if you expect "a miracle straight out of the bag", you won't want to bother with creating a humorous and fascinating presentation.
Perhaps we need a new thread for those who'd like to discuss the presentation of Little Man, instead of all these pages of whining.
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Spackle666 (Jan 7, 2010 04:17AM)
I keep hearing about Michael weber's playdough routine. Anyone got a reference for this? Or even a description
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 7, 2010 04:28AM)
So for those who have IDEAS, here's a new thread at "The Little Darlings":
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=346176&forum=17&0
May I respectfully ask, if you have nothing constructive to add, that you keep your negative comments to THIS thread, which already just reads like a bunch of whining schoolchildren.
Thanks, Potty ;)
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jan 7, 2010 05:21AM)
So now all the people who don't think it's the best thing ever are "whining schoolchildren". Potty, are you trying to tell me you have NEVER said ANYTHING negative about ANY magic product EVER? Sorry, I don't buy that, sir, not for one second. Just because THIS product seems to be one you happen to like does not give you the right, sir, to call anyone who disagrees with you names, any more than they have the right to do so to you, should you not see the merit in something they happen to think is incredible.

What's say we grow up here, gang, and civilly debate as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging and name calling?
Message: Posted by: Sybilmagic (Jan 7, 2010 05:32AM)
The effect is poor and the method obvious. You could rip up the black bag but they would assume the magnet was in the table or strapped to your leg. I mean it would only take a search on the Café for 'little play dough man mangnet' and a layman will have it 'all figured out'. There are children's toys (in the UK) that rely on similar methods for interaction, if the effect of the model walking was a a secondary effect then it might entertain (such as walking towards a chosen playing card) but that is a lot of dough to pay.

Basically the layman has an 'escape hatch' from the moment of astonishment and it therefore falls short. I suggest people send the video to friends and ask them how it is done, that would be the true litmus test.
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 7, 2010 05:32AM)
... and Little Man mumbled :
"That’s one small step for Little Man, one giant leap for claykind?"
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 7, 2010 05:37AM)
I never called anyone any names, Scott, stop making things up. I'm just bored with reading the same old thing from the same people over and over again. I often have negative things to say about new products, read the "Teddy Bear Turmoil" thread for instance. BUT, I make my point, and then refrain from sticking my oar in, as I respect the fact that some folks WILL like it, and want to have a chance to discuss how they'll use it, not hear negative comments from folks who haven't got a clue how to incorporate it into their show.
The problem is Scott, that you and several others have hi-jacked this thread, making it a waste of anyone's time to read. As I said, it's akin to listening to a bunch of schoolchildren talking about the latest "must have" in the playground.
13 pages, and barely a creative idea in sight.
And if your audiences rush to the nearest computer to Google the trick you just did, you are getting your performance SERIOUSLY wrong! Geez...and a "true litmus test" is a performance, not showing the demo video to your friends. Wrong, wrong, wrong. And wrong again!
;)
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 7, 2010 05:52AM)
... and Little Man said, as he walked to the toilets :
"Hum...I have cold feet"
Message: Posted by: Sybilmagic (Jan 7, 2010 06:00AM)
[quote]
And if your audiences rush to the nearest computer to Google the trick you just did, you are getting your performance SERIOUSLY wrong! Geez...and a "true litmus test" is a performance, not showing the demo video to your friends. Wrong, wrong, wrong. And wrong again!
;)
[/quote]

I disagree why wouldn't people Google something that bugged the crap out of them? People love the ability to find any information and Google spoons feeds it, don't be under an illusion that people are too polite to at least (at a high level) check that their 'state of astonishment' wasn't for something too obvious. Although I accept the person may still be entertained by the presentation....
As proof I did the following: [url=http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&q=little+dough+man+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.themagiccafe.com&meta=&aq=&oq=little+dough+man+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.themagiccafe.com&fp=1&cad=b]Google Search[/url]

Why is showing the demo video to a friend wrong? It is only the same as watching a magic DVD with a friend and viewing their reaction to an effect. In fact the Demo video is a brilliant litmus test as it should show the effect in its best light. I agree, you might add or take things in performance but the effect is bad at a fundemental level. You cannot escape the fact that the 'little man' moves in a way that is similar to off the shelf toys. Do not underestimate the IQ of your audience.

Also, on the subject of creativity, all artists need inspiration to paint their blank canvas. I think the general feedback so far is that they are not inspired. To make this effect have more impact I would want the clay figure to come alive in my hands. Is that creative enough for you?

Based on your observations I think you only considered me wrong on two points not four.
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 7, 2010 06:20AM)
... and Little Man smiled :
"... yes I'm moving forward and actually walking...
one astonishing step at time !... forward with each dramatic step...
Hey I have the wind up!"
Message: Posted by: Mr. Muggle (Jan 7, 2010 06:27AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 06:37, Potty the Pirate wrote:
[...]13 pages, and barely a creative idea in sight
[/quote]

Respectfully Potty, this forum isn't about creativity, look under the forum rules and you will read this forum is about providing:

[quote][...] a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question... [/quote]

Now back to the topic at hand.

My opinion on the Little Man demo is that a professional performer will make it shine and a mediocre or lesser magician won't. I think its more beneficial for a darker performance or used as a kids effect. Is it 'magical' or a ten on the 'wow' factor? IMO, no. Will it entertain? Yes, but the degree depends on the magician and it being embedded in another routine (card selection, etc.) Is it worth $300? IMO no; not at this stage in the game as version 1.0 moves to much like a toy. I suspect a number of improvements have yet to be made or realized.

As to the demo and lay audiences, I watched this with a group of co-workers today. They wern't told it was a magic effect. They were not magicians or used to watching magic. While they enjoyed it, as was posted earlier, it was more of a puzzle to the group. Nothing was said about the bag. To be fair, I'm sure in part this was due to lack of patter and performance build-up. Sadly, the point is Little Man was far from 'astonishment' to this lay audience under these 'test' conditions.

One thing is for sure, Little Man is not a 'quick' effect.

IMO audiences today 'want it now' and the prep/build-up time in a real life performance may be longer than desired for most. Since Little Man has not been used or tested by anyone other than Rod Whitlock and Paul Harris (to my knowledge) there is really no way to determine how it will play unless you take a $300 leap of faith and invest sweat equity. Could it be gold in someone's hands? Most definitely - I'm sure someone liked it otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it.

Personally, I'll wait for a broad based, post release, peer review and see what others do and think about Little Man. Sadly, I estimate this to be about six months or more away. If Little Man was known as a signature performance piece and reviewed like items released from other top professionals, I'd consider buying it despite all the hype, unknown factors, and the limited demo. To date, I have seen no such review or testimonial to sway my opinion. I suspect this may be the most over-hyped magic release of 2010 and hopefully a lesson to all in the magic community.

On a lighter note, all this discussion and debate about walk, step, and shuffle - not to mention the Frankenstein monster got me thinking. Why not go on YouTube to compare! I see now that others have done the same above so I took a slightly different approach. What I found was [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mach-o6aoEo]Frankenstein[/url] did in fact walk, his knees did in fact bend, and he didn't sway, shuffle, or waddle as much from side to side like, for example, a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H23bCGYElj0]penguin.[/url] Here is the demo of [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjZJUo-qrBI]Little Man[/url] to compare for yourself. IMO the main similarity between the three links is the position of the arms as each walks, shuffles, waddles, or steps.

In the end this doesn't matter - the little guy moves on his own and you can walk away from the area. You could put an upside down fish tank over the unit to prove there was no threads, etc. as the audience watches. The idea's brilliant (allbeit needs work) and different than anything else out today even if its not what so many of us hoped it would be. Then of course is the way it was marketed; a horse that was beat to death in multiple threads (rightfully so IMO). With that said, the negativity and constant posting of the same opinions doesn't get us anywhere because most everyone agrees this should never have been released until both ready and proven in the real world. Paul admits this through his sister, so lets see if the backlash has lasting results in the magic community.

I have sat with great anticipation since hearing about Little Man waiting for the demo and am satisfied the demo is as advertised. Remember folks, its a magic trick and we specialize in selective wording and deception - don't believe for a moment our own tricks aren't used when jobbers design magic to sell to us - but I digress. Little Man is far above anything I've ever created or designed in magic. For this, I tip my hat to Rod Whitlock, the creator and engineer of the effect, and Paul Harris who put his name and effort into this venture and wish them luck as they continue to work to bring this to market. With time and refinement Little Man has the potential of being one heck of an effect.

I for one won't post anything more on this until there is something to review and new to discuss. We all have to draw the line somewhere and IMO there isn't much more to say.
Message: Posted by: Rich B. (Jan 7, 2010 06:42AM)
Here is my view on Little man.

I wasn't that disappointed in the demo. I really didn't think a lump of clay would come to life and tap dance across a table. I was amused when I saw him shuffle along to reveal a trick in the demo.

Some effects have no explanation to a lay audience, others need presentational ideas to cancel out obvious methods. An example is the floating rose. I just performed it New Years Eve. During the floating part, you wave your hands below, above, and make a hoop with your arms to pass the rose through. One guy after the show said he saw me do this twice and it was the most amazing thing he has ever seen. I'm sure prior to the "proving" part, this guy was sure how it was done.

This is the case with Little Man...the audience will most likely know or think they know how it was done. Handing everything out for examination (according to the demo description) cancels out the method they are think of.

That being said, I can't see performing this anywhere except for family and friends. The time it takes to set this up(forming Little Man, setting up the trick), I can't see doing this in strolling close up shows...not practical. Or carrying the bag around with you all night. I guess this would work for parlor or formal close up shows...I just do many of these shows.

For $300, I think you have to consider...where are you going to perform this. I think its a great effect for hobbyists with deep pockets.

Just my thoughts.

Rich B.
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 7, 2010 06:47AM)
Appreciate your thoughts Mr. Muggle. One clarification here. This project was indeed started by Paul with Rod Whitlock. After the basic theories were worked out, the heavy lifting and endlessly intricate engineering was magnificently executed by Mark Allen. Paul and Rod will tell anyone that without Mark Allen's months of heroic effort and commitment to this project that Little Man would not be walking (or shuffling) today. So for those who love Little Man, please hold happy thoughts in your heart for Mark Allen. For those with less than happy thoughts about little man, feel free to focus them on my big brother Paul. It's a fine way to keep him humble.

Janet (AG)
Message: Posted by: Sybilmagic (Jan 7, 2010 07:04AM)
For me this is a curiosity. I could imagine it would work in a parlour situation if you had the mechanism purpose built into a table you could then have it as a running gag. i.e. he moves when your back is turned... but as a standalone piece of magic hmmmm you would be brave to perform this for anyone with an IQ of above 80.
That said Paul Harris may not be expecting close-up performers to buy this. He may not be expecting to appeal to all tastes and is possibly aware this will not work in all environments. I don't think it is fair to judge a trick on whether it appeals to the masses though and if this trick does work for one person and they have a lot of success with it then it is a successful trick. As it has made someone experience the moment of astonishment and given someone a solid piece of magic, which is priceless to a working performer.
I may eat my words. Reality Twister (in my mind) is on a similar level. It is a curious piece of science and light refraction in a prism lens. Although Bro Gilbert does a good job of performing it on AOA I just can't get past the fact that the lens is clearly responsible for doing the magic. The minute they ask to look at the lens and you refuse they will attribute it to the lens
It hurts me to say it (and I love Paul Harris and look forward to seeing him in Blackpool) I always feel that he finds a property or novelty with an object unknown to the magic community, packages it as magic and in a lot of cases it works superbly and in others it can still look like a novelty that is not strictly magic.
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 7, 2010 07:06AM)
Janet, your last post is very fine. Clever and humble.

From my point of view, the negative point in the demo is that the container
is on the table. It's a way a magician rarely performs : he takes something outside a box and then he "clears" the scene and put the box away.
Little Man may needs more light and focus on him.
And all the extra material needs more shadow.
Message: Posted by: Rich B. (Jan 7, 2010 07:11AM)
In my above post...it should have read, "I just do NOT do many of these shows(formal close up shows).

Rich B.
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 7, 2010 07:31AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 08:06, ricardo carpenter wrote:
Janet, your last post is very fine. Clever and humble.

From my point of view, the negative point in the demo is that the container
is on the table. It's a way a magician rarely performs : he takes something outside a box and then he "clears" the scene and put the box away.
Little Man may needs more light and focus on him.
And all the extra material needs more shadow.
[/quote]

I agree about the container, it seems to be quite firmly fixed placed and the demo cuts as the dough is taken from the tub. It's clearly used for cover and I'm not sure how natural or easy it would be to take the dough out of the tub in that position.

I've watched the demo many times now and I think what hurts it are the cuts and the close ups during the walk, which create a lack of trust in the product. Perhaps these were made for creative reasons but I think if the camera stayed where it was when the match was lit it would have served the demo better and looked more impressive.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 7, 2010 08:44AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 07:27, Mr. Muggle wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 06:37, Potty the Pirate wrote:
[...]13 pages, and barely a creative idea in sight
[/quote]

Respectfully Potty, this forum isn't about creativity, look under the forum rules and you will read this forum is about providing:

[quote][...] a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question... [/quote]
...my apologies Mr Muggle - I hadn't understood that. I'll follow the new thread in "Little Darlings" for the creative stuff. Your post sums it all up, thank you.
Regarding suitable venues, 3 obvious ones come to mind: Cafés and informal restaurants, kid shows, and hospital bedside shows. I regularly perform at all these types of venue, that's why I see this as pure gold.
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: thehawk (Jan 7, 2010 09:29AM)
Why doesn't Paul Harris come on here and answer some of people's concerns? If he wants to put his name behind a product he should anser questions good or bad.
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (Jan 7, 2010 09:46AM)
Not sure if this has been recommended as I cannot sift through 390 posts.
Let's follow Mr. Muggle's lead as he came very close to the "walking" solution by forming a Penguin which walks almost exactly as a real Penguin.
I am sure you can create many story lines for the little Black n White suited bird or anything else you can sculpt with a theme to fit the shuffle.
Maybe a Michael Jackson concept aint to bad...not sure if I want to go there creatively yet :)
If we begin to think outside the box I am sure many cool ideas will come forth.
Chance
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 7, 2010 10:12AM)
Time to lock this thread?
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Jan 7, 2010 10:36AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 10:46, Chance Wolf wrote:
Not sure if this has been recommended as I cannot sift through 390 posts.
Let's follow Mr. Muggle's lead as he came very close to the "walking" solution by forming a Penguin which walks almost exactly as a real Penguin.
I am sure you can create many story lines for the little Black n White suited bird or anything else you can sculpt with a theme to fit the shuffle.
Maybe a Michael Jackson concept aint to bad...not sure if I want to go there creatively yet :)
If we begin to think outside the box I am sure many cool ideas will come forth.
Chance
[/quote]

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.

Robert
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 7, 2010 10:55AM)
... and Little Man finally said :
"...Then the dust goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it...."
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jan 7, 2010 11:13AM)
Mold a snowman, like in Rudolph from the 1960's? The Burl Ives Snowman sort of moved like Little Man.

Or, for the VERY adult crowd, mold it I to Michael Jackson's nose ( his reportedly came off ) and have it move, looking, for Jacko. I know, a bit cryptic, but weave a story about it ( taking it out of the bag, giving a use for the bag ).

Christopher
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Jan 7, 2010 11:38AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 12:13, Review King wrote:

Or, for the VERY adult crowd, mold it I to Michael Jackson's nose ( his reportedly came off ) and have it move, looking, for Jacko. I know, a bit cryptic, but weave a story about it ( taking it out of the bag, giving a use for the bag ).

Christopher
[/quote]

Now that would be hilarious!
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 7, 2010 11:41AM)
Michael Jackson's nose! I love it! Kids would love it too - I have Captain Knottybeard's "spare nose" in my Treasure Chest, and the kids adore it. Of course, there's no reason why you shouldn't have any number of different presentations for this. I had planned to make a pirate, but now I'm thinking about a nose....squeeze it at the end and a load of snot shoots out?
He he.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jan 7, 2010 11:57AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 07:00, Sybilmagic wrote:
why wouldn't people Google something that bugged the crap out of them? People love the ability to find any information and Google spoons feeds it, don't be under an illusion that people are too polite to at least (at a high level) check that their 'state of astonishment' wasn't for something too obvious.....
As proof I did the following: [url=http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&q=little+dough+man+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.themagiccafe.com&meta=&aq=&oq=little+dough+man+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.themagiccafe.com&fp=1&cad=b]Google Search[/url]
Why is showing the demo video to a friend wrong? [/quote]

Firstly, what would someone Google? "Walking clay figure"? that may turn it up, they won't know to enter "Little Man", "Paul Harris", etc, so it could take hours.....they might just go and get a beer. The only ones likely to Google your tricks are teenagers - and then, only those nerdy enough to be interested in finding out how magic is "done".
Showing the demo video to your friends is bad form. Of course, show it to fellow magi's, but not to your laymen friends. The video is intended as a demo for magicians, not for critical review as if it were a performance. If you as a performer can't see the potential in it, it's unlikely your friends will either.
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 7, 2010 02:01PM)
Although I like it, I would probably never use it because I don't use tables in my show. Now, last time I went to my granddaughters house, she was sitting on the floor playing with playdoe. She was making little people. She is 6 years old. I imagined I could do little man for her right then and there. That would have been something. Real close to an Astonishment moment that Paul talks about. (Being a normal person and using items on hand to make a moment of astonishment.)

The moment came and went. As magicians, we should be able to set the stage for this to happen. If that is the way you perform. When I work for money I just walk up to people and do everything in the hands. My stage show is basically all in the hands also.

ACE :dance: (look at the little man dance)
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jan 7, 2010 02:28PM)
I wrote in Magic, people do google magic secrets. Handhelds are everywhere and it is too easy not to. Googling is now no different from leaning over to your friend and asking 'hey, do you know how they did it?'

And yes, they have enough info to find it online. I can cite specific examples of this happening to friends of mine, but I am sure most working performers who 1. fool people and 2. work for those who have access to the internet have had their own experiences. And yes, they will end up here.

I agree that the bag was a poor choice. Why not use one of those play-dough mats that come with the kits. It would make sense to play with the dough on the mat designed to be played on. It also serves the known purpose of keeping the surrounding environment clean.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jan 7, 2010 02:50PM)
Re. something that might "walk" like that in real life, how about a baby crawling on all fours, with the bag decorated as a baby gift bag? I'm not sure if the crawling would work given the mechanics of this effect, since the figure would be longer than taller, it would touch the bag in four places, and what would the paper on the knees and elbows represent, kneepads and elbowpads? Even if it would work, I'd want the crawling to be a means to an end versus an end itself. Maybe instead of a baby crawling, it could be a man crawling on all fours to lay carpet, or a car with a poor GPS system and a dotted white line drawn on the black bag to represent a road? :baby:
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Jan 7, 2010 02:59PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 06:37, Potty the Pirate wrote:
I never called anyone any names, Scott, stop making things up. I'm just bored with reading the same old thing from the same people over and over again. I often have negative things to say about new products, read the "Teddy Bear Turmoil" thread for instance. BUT, I make my point, and then refrain from sticking my oar in, as I respect the fact that some folks WILL like it, and want to have a chance to discuss how they'll use it, not hear negative comments from folks who haven't got a clue how to incorporate it into their show.
The problem is Scott, that you and several others have hi-jacked this thread, making it a waste of anyone's time to read. As I said, it's akin to listening to a bunch of schoolchildren talking about the latest "must have" in the playground.
13 pages, and barely a creative idea in sight.
And if your audiences rush to the nearest computer to Google the trick you just did, you are getting your performance SERIOUSLY wrong! Geez...and a "true litmus test" is a performance, not showing the demo video to your friends. Wrong, wrong, wrong. And wrong again!
;)
[/quote]

This is my 4th post in 14 pages. I stated my opinion of the product, and then I took issue with the way you and Darius responded to people who disagreed with your opinions of the effect of Little Man. I don't see how that's hijacking a thread.

As I said in my first post, others may really like this.
Message: Posted by: keeblem (Jan 7, 2010 03:03PM)
Pros: Cute
Negs: Not that magical (IMO)
Price: Cheap if you will use it, expensive if you don't.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 7, 2010 03:10PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 15:50, Larry Davidson wrote:
Re. something that might "walk" like that in real life, how about a baby crawling on all fours, with the bag decorated as a baby gift bag?

[/quote]

Actually, those guys with their pants way down low sort of walk like that, too...
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jan 7, 2010 03:11PM)
Player Dough?
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jan 7, 2010 03:12PM)
How about a magician crawling before he can walk?
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 7, 2010 03:16PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 15:28, truthteller wrote:
This thread should NOT be locked. To do so would send the message that popular magicians should be free from criticism. This category is about discussing hype and the speculation of methods, that is what we see here so the thread is accomplishing its goals.[/quote]

I totally agree with this as it smacks of censorship. Calling for threads to be deleted or locked can actually harm the respect a creator has only for another thread to be created elsewhere in the forum.

Aside from the odd troll and *** kisser I see a lot of positive discussion here and I hope this continues in order to stimulate ideas and help improve the product before release. Janet has also been good enough to respond to comments on her brother's behalf, which I'm sure is appreciated by most members taking part in this discussion and would be unfair on her to lock a thread that PHP is actively involved in.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 7, 2010 03:29PM)
I commend Janet for how she has been responding to the many honest opinions being shared here.

But, I do believe that all the other threads that keep popping up in retaliation, (excluding the one in Little Darlings) should be locked or deleted. This forum is not intended to discuss creative idea's and in my personal opinion shows a disregard to the rules and those who work hard to keep this place what it is.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 7, 2010 03:29PM)
I agree also. It seems Scott is trying to get us to understand the importance of proper form with our posts. Perhaps threads get locked not so much because of WHAT is being said but rather HOW it is being said...
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 7, 2010 03:29PM)
I've had one person google one of my tricks while I was working. They told me they could not find it. I was telling them I use body language to do it. They did not believe me. When they could not find it, I told them once again, body language.
Maybe we should not use the real name of the effect. Even if they find it, they will not get the secret, but will be discouraged if they have to spend $300.

I just googled "play doh man" and this is the best match I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWy0AKqHpU

Go to the one minute mark to see him walk. This is how one would expect a play doh man to walk. And this is sort of how little man walks. So if people see this and expect this, then little man is doing his job.

Janet: I'm wondering if little man can fall over onto a toothpick like in this video. That would be fun. Or have different colored tooth picks set up at an angle, and little man falls onto the chosen one. And we blindfold him before his destruction...

ACE :dance:
Message: Posted by: Joe Mauro (Jan 7, 2010 03:45PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 16:29, Acecardician wrote:

I just googled "play doh man" and this is the best match I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWy0AKqHpU

[/quote]

It says "The URL contained a malformed video ID".
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (Jan 7, 2010 03:54PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 16:29, Gospel Dan wrote:

This forum is not intended to discuss creative idea's and in my personal opinion shows a disregard to the rules and those who work hard to keep this place what it is.

[/quote]

Dan, please keep posting away. Your posts definitely continue to build your reputation.
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 7, 2010 05:33PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 16:45, Joe Mauro wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 16:29, Acecardician wrote:

I just googled "play doh man" and this is the best match I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWy0AKqHpU

[/quote]

It says "The URL contained a malformed video ID".
[/quote]

Well, it worked awhile ago, that makes it even harder for lay people to find something.
Try to google play doh man and see if you can find it. It is a you tube video.
I'll try again for the link.
This is what I get:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWy0AKqHpUY&NR=1

And go to the one minute mark.

ACE
Message: Posted by: GarySumpter (Jan 7, 2010 05:44PM)
I think that the team need to get the 'better demo video' up very quickly as clearly, based on the current demo, a LOT of sales are gonna be lost.

I too was captivated by the idea, but the walking simple isn't walking. Perhaps the effect should have been held off for another year or two until a more natural walk could be achieved?

Yes I know it sounds like asking a lot, but if you SAY he can walk, he should WALK :)

Keeping an eye on this thread :)

Gary
Message: Posted by: edh (Jan 7, 2010 10:03PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 11:36, Robert M wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 10:46, Chance Wolf wrote:
Not sure if this has been recommended as I cannot sift through 390 posts.
Let's follow Mr. Muggle's lead as he came very close to the "walking" solution by forming a Penguin which walks almost exactly as a real Penguin.
I am sure you can create many story lines for the little Black n White suited bird or anything else you can sculpt with a theme to fit the shuffle.
Maybe a Michael Jackson concept aint to bad...not sure if I want to go there creatively yet :)
If we begin to think outside the box I am sure many cool ideas will come forth.
Chance
[/quote]

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. [b]I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.[/b]

Robert
[/quote]

I don't believe anyone said anything negative about the time, effort and expense regarding this project and I certainly don't believe this thread should be locked because people have opinions that don't agree with yours.

Robert, do you know how much time, effort and expense went into creating the Edsel automobile(dating myself here)? It didn't fly regardless of what went into creating the Edsel. In the end the public didn't like the car so it died.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter what went into creating Little Man. If some do not like it they will not purchase it.

To stifle the voices of those who do not like this and give the views as to why would just be plain wrong and give the appearance of censorship because of who Paul Harris is in the magic community.
Message: Posted by: Lord Freddie (Jan 8, 2010 02:18AM)
I certainly don't think it should be locked. I think some people need to grow up a bit and realise that, in this world, people have different opinions.
Ordering for a thread to be locked because people aren't saying what you want them to say is a very dictatorish attitude.

Just because it's produced by Paul Harris, that doesn't mean we all have to fall to our knees and praise this mana from above, regardless of quality.

The thing that has annoyed me here is the misleading advertising. Claiming that it "comes to life" and "walks step by step" is quite patently wrong and in the UK you would have a case under the Trades Descriptions Act for false advertising. It moves along, yes, but certainly doesn't look like it "comes to life".

The whole point here is that some people are impressed by the video and others, like myself, expected something a great deal better. Espeecially when the name Paul Harris is attached to it.


The proof in the pudding is whether people are still discussing/using it a year from now. Time will tell...
Message: Posted by: Sybilmagic (Jan 8, 2010 04:08AM)
[quote]

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.

Robert
[/quote]

I don't see your point. I work as a professional software engineer. A team can work for years on an application that is beautifully written but might not even see the light of day due to strong criticism. Why is Paul Harris et al. immune to valid points about the what we have seen? The thread is prouductive as it gives other magicians the oppurtunity to prove or disprove their opinion of what they have seen. This is about making informed choices and this thread is helping magicians through that thought process.

I have seen far stronger critique of other products on the market and those threads don't get locked. Prehaps the Café has made a deal to sell advertising for 'Little Man' and therefore doesn't want to support any negative vibes that magicians might have?

Seriously, there is nothing unproductive about this thread apart from the posts that feel the need to wrap the producers of Little Man in cotton wool and tell them that magicians are unable to make informed decisions based on the audiences they perform to.

If anyone does have postives then post them. I like to see a balanced arguement. To be honest the postives so far feel like magicians clutching a straws rather than tweaking the routine.

Just for balance I will always be indebted to Paul Harris for his creative thinking and AOA books and ability to produce some exceptional material. His thinking is thought provoking. No one is questioning Paul Harris' contribution to the Magic community but people do like to make an informed opinion.
Message: Posted by: Hansel (Jan 8, 2010 05:12AM)
WOW...to be a " Little " man , they provoque a BIG controverse.
My feels about the product are the same BUT I need to recognize that I re-read the ad and in fact Mrs. Janet Harris is right, they mention the bag.
So, my apologies for my previous comment.
My best,
Hansel!
Message: Posted by: Sybilmagic (Jan 8, 2010 05:19AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-07 12:57, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Showing the demo video to your friends is bad form. Of course, show it to fellow magi's, but not to your laymen friends. The video is intended as a demo for magicians, not for critical review as if it were a performance. If you as a performer can't see the potential in it, it's unlikely your friends will either.
Potty :)
[/quote]
This makes no sense in the slightest. The demo video IS how the trick would look to any human being magician OR layman. Their opinion is just as valid in both cases. I actually showed it to friends hoping that the method was NOT that obvious just to ensure that it was a true test. They all seemed to have similar opinions. Perhaps the video could do with some more presentation around it BUT the fact still remains that when effect occurs the method may be a bit obvious. Even with all the proving it still gives them something to cling onto.

On the Google search point I guess you are entitled to your opinion. To be honest I think most people would not even bother searching for methods in this case as it is fairly clear how it works.

I agree that method is secondary and presentation comes first but you are a magician and they have to believe (play along) with the fact that you are doing magic this did not produce that moment for my friends or myself.
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 8, 2010 05:36AM)
I've actually been too scared to show my girlfriend the demo as I really want to believe in this effect but I'm sure I'll know her reaction to it and it's one I don't want to hear.

quote]
On 2010-01-07 18:44, GarySumpter wrote:
I think that the team need to get the 'better demo video' up very quickly as clearly, based on the current demo, a LOT of sales are gonna be lost.

I too was captivated by the idea, but the walking simple isn't walking. Perhaps the effect should have been held off for another year or two until a more natural walk could be achieved?

Yes I know it sounds like asking a lot, but if you SAY he can walk, he should WALK :)
[/quote]

I agree the demo definitely isn't doing Little Man any favours, the cuts are bad and we barely see him move. What we need is a straight performance, not cuts or close-ups. Just the demo. Audience reaction would be great too.
Message: Posted by: Sybilmagic (Jan 8, 2010 06:35AM)
OK I have thought long and hard about this and I have come up with a plausible presentation. On a positive note UK magicians will remember the playdoh (stop motion animation) character Morph. Morph is even the same colour as little man! I am sure there would be some entertianment value in modeling Morph and then having Morph move and do something comical. The jerky walking motion could also be worked into the patter as something to do with stop motion...
see Morph perform a card trick here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSMRPKM1evk

but come on guys

I can only imagine this working if you build a strong enough presentation around it. The kind where even if they do want to work it out ( and even if they did they don't care) they don't becuase they feel emotionaly involved.

1. is this still clutching as straws?
2. Show this demo to as many lay people as possible. I think you will be suprised at how intelligent some people are. I hate to say it but I think the only crowd that would like this is children. I think they would love it!
Message: Posted by: Roland78 (Jan 8, 2010 07:49AM)
Show a demo of a magical trick without context and presentation to a layman? Why in the world would you do that? It would be really bad in my opinion, not only for this effect in particular, but also in general.
I like to keep an aura of mistery around my magical effects. If you show that it is just a trick that you can buy online and that can be done without the proper presentation, you will destroy everything magical about it.
I didn't want to write anything in this topic because I am not going to buy Little Man, but only beacuse I don't have the money. I think it is a wonderful effect and I can only imagine the reactions of the people with the proper presentation.
They will ask themselves how did you do it. They will think to magnets. They will think to invisible thread. Maybe someone will even guess the right method (which since now is only been supposed, since nobody still owns the props). Who cares??? Everytime you do a magical show people try to understand how did you do it and come up with strange explanations, but our magic should not stop at fooling spectators, but to entertain them. The emotions you arise with your show must be much more impressive than the sense of fooling, in my opinion.
And that's why I envy who can buy Little Man and astonish people with it.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Sybilmagic (Jan 8, 2010 08:20AM)
I really don't see how any amount of setting the mood, scene, lighting or a Eugene Berger charged presentation would get away from the fact that the movement looks mechanical and there is a clear relation from the box through the bag to the man.

Watch David Copperfield's flying trick. Are you telling me that you were not thinking 'how the hell is he still flying in those perspex boxes?'. Your brain will have been looking for logical answers and when none could be found, then it became magical. Think about Copperfield wiggling his feet in the death saw trick, think about the magician with the hoop proving the floating woman is suspended in thin air. They are removing the doubt so that audiences can experiance the magic. The reason the hoop and the feet wiggling exsists is because the performer wants to remove any possible solution.

At a young age I always remember a friend of mine saying that David Copperfield has to be able to do real magic. Walking through the great wall of china etc.. and at the time I had to agree with him becuase I could think of no explanation.

What are you trying to tell people? that you can bring something to life, I don't think so!
Thinking about Eugene Berger I have seen him do a sceance trick where he wraps a pen and a piece of paper up in a hanky and the pen appears to write the name of someone. That is real magic! and is beleivable. The gimmick goes unnoticed due to the setting and the style it with which it is performed. Saying you can bring plastacine to life is a big claim and the mechanics and obvious workings will undoubtly make you a laughing stock if you are trying to make this outlandish claim.
Like I said the only people that would 'buy' this effect are kids and they are likely to have toys that do similar things at home!
Message: Posted by: Liam Montier (Jan 8, 2010 09:10AM)
Strange man - I don't understand how you could take a plasticine figure, make it walk and NOT feel you could get a reaction from it.

I think you contradict yourself when you say that Eugene Burger makes a great presentation with the haunted hank as a spirit writing effect. You say "saying you can bring plastacine to life is a big claim" but you think that Eugene telling you that spirits are writing on a piece of card isn't? Both claims are equally outlandish, but Eugene makes his fly in the context of a performance. The Little Man video isn't a performance - it is a demo.

Everyone has their own unique style, and a large part of that dictates the material that we use. I find routines I love that I am unable to present convincingly, due to my style and character. Every other performer must have the same experience.

I feel 99% sure that Little Man would be a great addition to my work.

Not that it matters, but I also don't show laypeople demo videos if at all avoidable. People have no investment in watching a performance on youtube, and everything becomes more about the technique.

Music is an example. Watch a band on youtube, and you'll notice times people are out of tune, or key, and wonder what the fuss is about. See the band live, and then you get what you don't from the video - the performance.
Message: Posted by: Roland78 (Jan 8, 2010 09:29AM)
The difference between a demo and a performance is the same that there is between showing a new effect to a fellow magician in you magic club, and then doing the same effect in front of an audience. That's why I will never show a magical trick to a spectator in the same way I would show it to you, and why I would never never show a demo online to a layman.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 8, 2010 11:07AM)
Sybilmagic not Strange Man, I agree with your post, and your opinions that are shared by many others. I also don't see a problem with showing the demo (which apparently took 2 months to make) to laypeople.

IMO You make a valid point in regards to Eugene Berger and his sceance trick because the difference is the trick helps sell the presention, rather than needing a strong presentation to sell the trick. I have read some good creative thoughts about presentation idea's for little man on another forum here on the Café, but the common factor seems to be an emphasise on having a strong presentation. Now, this is true, and I won't argue that point. Sometimes even with just a sponge ball and a strong presentation you can create a very strong magical moment. I suppose some of us are asking ourselves do I need to spend $300 on an effect that will only work if I have a strong routine and presentation for it? I could also be alone on that thought as well, who knows.(lol)

I always found that a great trick is one that can be performed without saying a single word while performing it. Adding a presentation to it is supposed to be the icing on the cake, not the entire ingredients to a trick. But, hey, what do I know., :)
Message: Posted by: ebinary (Jan 8, 2010 11:13AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 10:29, Roland78 wrote:
The difference between a demo and a performance .....
[/quote]

The demo has overdubbed heartbeats and camera zooms... that more than the real performance will have.
Message: Posted by: inidyls (Jan 8, 2010 11:40AM)
Ask yourself this
would you be as excited or think LM is worth $300 if Paul Harris's name wasn't attached to it?

JV
Message: Posted by: niva (Jan 8, 2010 11:51AM)
Is Paul Harris going to be in Blackpool?
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Jan 8, 2010 12:53PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 05:08, Sybilmagic wrote:
[quote]

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.

Robert
[/quote]

I don't see your point. I work as a professional software engineer. A team can work for years on an application that is beautifully written but might not even see the light of day due to strong criticism. Why is Paul Harris et al. immune to valid points about the what we have seen? The thread is prouductive as it gives other magicians the oppurtunity to prove or disprove their opinion of what they have seen. This is about making informed choices and this thread is helping magicians through that thought process.

I have seen far stronger critique of other products on the market and those threads don't get locked. Prehaps the Café has made a deal to sell advertising for 'Little Man' and therefore doesn't want to support any negative vibes that magicians might have?

Seriously, there is nothing unproductive about this thread apart from the posts that feel the need to wrap the producers of Little Man in cotton wool and tell them that magicians are unable to make informed decisions based on the audiences they perform to.

If anyone does have postives then post them. I like to see a balanced arguement. To be honest the postives so far feel like magicians clutching a straws rather than tweaking the routine.

Just for balance I will always be indebted to Paul Harris for his creative thinking and AOA books and ability to produce some exceptional material. His thinking is thought provoking. No one is questioning Paul Harris' contribution to the Magic community but people do like to make an informed opinion.
[/quote]

All I'm saying is... if this was your trick, I don't think you'd appreciate all the negativity before the product is even released, especially by people who don't even plan on purchasing it. This isn't about "informed choices" because the trick isn't even available yet.

I think we should at least wait until Little Man is released before we crucify him. Surely no one really believed that Little Man was going to walk like a real person or did they? Sometimes I think magicians are more gullible than lay people.

The "creative" thread that Steve Hook started seems to be much more productive than this one - at least at this point. No one's trying to censor anyone. I just wish those who are so quick to criticize would try to put themselves in Paul's or Rodney's or Mark's shoes. It's so easy to be critical yet so incredibly hard to be the one who creates all this cool stuff.

Peace,
Robert
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Jan 8, 2010 01:05PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 13:53, Robert M wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 05:08, Sybilmagic wrote:
[quote]

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.

Robert
[/quote]

I don't see your point. I work as a professional software engineer. A team can work for years on an application that is beautifully written but might not even see the light of day due to strong criticism. Why is Paul Harris et al. immune to valid points about the what we have seen? The thread is prouductive as it gives other magicians the oppurtunity to prove or disprove their opinion of what they have seen. This is about making informed choices and this thread is helping magicians through that thought process.

I have seen far stronger critique of other products on the market and those threads don't get locked. Prehaps the Café has made a deal to sell advertising for 'Little Man' and therefore doesn't want to support any negative vibes that magicians might have?

Seriously, there is nothing unproductive about this thread apart from the posts that feel the need to wrap the producers of Little Man in cotton wool and tell them that magicians are unable to make informed decisions based on the audiences they perform to.

If anyone does have postives then post them. I like to see a balanced arguement. To be honest the postives so far feel like magicians clutching a straws rather than tweaking the routine.

Just for balance I will always be indebted to Paul Harris for his creative thinking and AOA books and ability to produce some exceptional material. His thinking is thought provoking. No one is questioning Paul Harris' contribution to the Magic community but people do like to make an informed opinion.
[/quote]

All I'm saying is... if this was your trick, I don't think you'd appreciate all the negativity before the product is even released, especially by people who don't even plan on purchasing it. This isn't about "informed choices" because the trick isn't even available yet.

I think we should at least wait until Little Man is released before we crucify him. Surely no one really believed that Little Man was going to walk like a real person or did they? Sometimes I think magicians are more gullible than lay people.

The "creative" thread that Steve Hook started seems to be much more productive than this one - at least at this point. No one's trying to censor anyone. I just wish those who are so quick to criticize would try to put themselves in Paul's or Rodney's or Mark's shoes. It's so easy to be critical yet so incredibly hard to be the one who creates all this cool stuff.

Peace,
Robert
[/quote]

Robert,

How many performers do you know of who get kiss-a££ advice from those close to them and start to lose their edge. Its hugely common.

So to think you are doing Paul Harris any favours by NOT pointing out what you may think are obvious defects in the effect does him no favours. A great deal of the criticism of this effect is paired with "Paul Harris is great" type comments so its obvious that an element of disappointment is that many don't feel this is up to his standards. Sad for the effect that he has worked so long on but also a good indicator of the esteem he is held in ?
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 8, 2010 01:06PM)
I want to make it clear as I did many post before that I oppose to having PH's reputation being in question. Paul Harris's reputation is, and shouldn't be based on how many feel about Little Man.

Babe Ruth is a legend to baseball fans throughout the world, but never hit a home run everytine he was up at bats. Micheal Jordan is a legend in Basketball but didn't score everytime he had the ball.

Paul Harris is a legend to magic and I personally believe that his reputation was built over many years of gaining respect from his peers and fans. I know that many of us didn't like the marketing, and feel that Little Man is not magical or lives up to the hype, but I also respect those who believe it is. I carry no grudges, nor feelings of contempt for those who have expressed themselves in a negative and derogatory way towards me or others who have shared their opinions in this forum.

I say this because although I am a very opinionated person, I do not make a habit of going around and criticizing every product that comes on the market. Have I over stated my position in regards to Little Man? Yes, I probally have. Should I be condemed because of it? No, I don't believe I should. Should someone question my intergrity, or my credability? No, I don't think it's fair to do that to anyone.

I will admit that when someone chooses to repeatedly resort to criticizing me for my opinions, (name calling, etc) I tend to become more aggresive in expressing them.

I don't state my opinions just to tick people off. Nor, do I look for a fight. Yes, I wear my faith on my sleeve, and yes I do not always represent my faith as good as I should. For that, I apologize sincerely from the bottom of my heart. I have not been a perfect example, and have fallen short on representing my God in a more productive way.

Again, to those who may feel that I have over-stepped a line, please except my apologies. To the many who have written me with words of encouragement. I thank you all, but I do honestly believe that the few outway the many.

Dan
Message: Posted by: baggins321 (Jan 8, 2010 02:05PM)
Janet,

Will it be possible to rig a table in order to have little man walk on a normal surface?
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 8, 2010 02:22PM)
The post about the positive ideas on LM is amazing :
Little Man is still not on the market and it is asked for people
to GIVE ideas for helping to sell something at 300$ !


It is asked to fans to explain how little man could be good.

It's not about something already on the market, and about which people share and talk, it's about Saving Little Man.

It's like : Little man (Paul Harris regret to present...)

It's nice to the fans, but it's not their job, they don't need to.

It's the job of PHP to do the job.

But maybe I don't get the point.

Maybe be it's just a love story.

It's nice.

ps: I'm nice to: this post is not in the mentioned thread. I love me.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 8, 2010 05:52PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 15:22, ricardo carpenter wrote:
The post about the positive ideas on LM is amazing :
Little Man is still not on the market and it is asked for people
to GIVE ideas for helping to sell something at 300$ !


It is asked to fans to explain how little man could be good.

It's not about something already on the market, and about which people share and talk, it's about Saving Little Man.

It's like : Little man (Paul Harris regret to present...)

It's nice to the fans, but it's not their job, they don't need to.

It's the job of PHP to do the job.

But maybe I don't get the point.

Maybe be it's just a love story.

It's nice.

ps: I'm nice to: this post is not in the mentioned thread. I love me.
[/quote]

IMO, I have to agree that this was also my intitial thought as well. Perhaps a diversion away from the bad publicity and many negative responses that Little Man has generated. I don't know if there is any truth behind it though. If there was, it would only turn out in the end to be counter productive.

In the meantime, there ARE some good idea's being shared. I encourage those who have contributed one of their own original idea's to continue to do so, as creative thinking sparks more creativety. :)
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jan 8, 2010 06:14PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 12:07, Gospel Dan wrote:

I suppose some of us are asking ourselves do I need to spend $300 on an effect that will only work if I have a strong routine and presentation for it? I could also be alone on that thought as well, who knows.(lol)

I always found that a great trick is one that can be performed without saying a single word while performing it. Adding a presentation to it is supposed to be the icing on the cake, not the entire ingredients to a trick. But, hey, what do I know, I'm only a part-time amatuer who is over opinionated, carries a hidden agenda to distroy Paul Harris's good name and reputation, and would better the magic community if I just shut up and dissapear.(lol)

:)
[/quote]

For magic to be magical one needs a presentation. This can be an effect performed silent with or without music or one with a verbal script. Whatever you do is your "presentation" and this applies even to an exceptional performer such as Eugene. Some of Eugene's magic has a deep spiritual tone such as The history of Religion as told by a pack of cards" and others are as simple as The worlds fastest card trick which has very little verbal script and is almost over before it starts.

Magic without a presentation isn't magic it's a puzzle or? The Little Man of course is no exception. It, like all magic, requires a presentational frame in order for it to become a professional piece of magic theatre that someone would be interested in seeing/experiencing. If someone is expecting to pay $300 and not do any work to make the effect their own and to give it an orginal presentation then they really don't get what magic is about. I have magic props that range in the thousands of dollars and without work in developing a magical presentation they simply aren't magic. The props are the tools we use to create our magic they can't make magic by themselves. Well except for that Axtell programmable hands free chimp which can be pre-programmed to do the er...scrap that I had to develop the routine and program the little sucker so even he too needs help doing the magic.

jeff
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 8, 2010 06:57PM)
You raise some good points. As I think about what you said after reading your post, it isn't so much the trick that is magicial but how the performer performs it that makes it magicial. Even though I knew that, I failed to acknowledge that.

I have seen some tricks that the effects alone require no patter, but presenting it without patter is still a presentation chose by the performer to create the magical moment with his/her audience that involves incorporating an original idea that suits his character and non verbal presentation of it.
Message: Posted by: edh (Jan 8, 2010 07:42PM)
But...you also have to have an effect that, hopefully, is structured so it cancels out the method to the audience. This does not.

As has been posted before, and I paraphrase..."it doesn't matter if they don't know the method. The audience only has to think they know the method" and the effect will be ruined.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 8, 2010 07:58PM)
In today's market of magic tricks, the saying that there is nothing new under the sun has prompted many to use a new way to sell magic effects by also selling routines and presentations with them. We are no longer just paying for the secret but paying for the routines and presentations offered with them. We are encouraged at the same time to take those routines and presentations and make them original to our character and style.

I agree completely with your statement edh. I too feel the same way. Each of us have to decide if an effect is worth the investment for ourselves. If the consumer feels that a method will automatically be assumed by our spectator, no matter what we say, the layperson will think they know the method and the effect will be ruined, even if the layperson is not correct.

In the past, I have showed many demo's to my friends to get a layperson's perspective on a trick. I don't go around showing every body, and I don't show every demo made either. When I think that my first reaction may be biased because I am a magician, it's nice to get an opinion from the type of people I would be performing for. This one got the "cool" factor, but immediate speculations were made.
Message: Posted by: bmagic (Jan 8, 2010 08:16PM)
I am relatively new to the Café but have been involved in magic for quite some time both as a hobbyist and as a performer.
I will have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed at the Little Man demo after all of the hype. What really bothered me was the fact that the bag and the "cheap" dollar store play doh container remained on the table during the presentation.
I am just getting "magically tired" of hyped reviews and overpriced effects. I certainly respect the many contributions of Paul Harris and truly enjoy his creative mind, but that doesn't automatically equate to a performance piece of magic.
A $300 price tag can be looked at as a way to keep it out of the hands of the curious, but in this instance it appears the method and the "overall entertainment/amazement" value of this effect is and will be much less!
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jan 8, 2010 08:33PM)
IMHO what makes this effect not work for me is all of the attention the bag and box create. This is a close up effect and these items seem too much to be ignored. What do others think about this? I use Doug Malloys effect The Lean in my stage show which involves that extra not so little something onstage. Some hide/disguise it and others Including myself/Doug don't. How do those who plan to use LM plan to handle this?

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 8, 2010 09:03PM)
I don't think the majority here has any desire on using or purchasing LM. The few who are are over in another thread creatively trying to come up with presentation idea's for it.

You bring up a very valid point once again. For close-up work it does seem too much to ignore. I think though that any attempt to incorporate the bag and container into the presentation will only bring more heat to it. Also, for those who do restaurants, I don't know how customers would react at someone bringing clay to their table.

I do stage presentations as well as close-up, but I now have a different workable idea for a walking man that would be more visually presentable for stage application. Because it's stage, there's no need for someone to examine my props which allows me more freedom in my method.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 8, 2010 09:24PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 15:22, ricardo carpenter wrote:
The post about the positive ideas on LM is amazing :
Little Man is still not on the market and it is asked for people
to GIVE ideas for helping to sell something at 300$ !

[/quote]

So, what is wrong with that? If you have found some other threads that are more captivating, please share! Actually, I am enjoying the entire LM discussion, including exercising what little creativity I have toward ideas for LM. My dime. No one has asked me to help sell "something at 300$"! Nor do I have the hubris to think my opinion or ideas will have any effect on the final story of LM...
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 8, 2010 09:44PM)
Ricardo carpenter does makes sense though. Without knowing for sure what the method is, creatively constructing routines and presentations may be fun, but may also prove to be premature or futile if the method itself prohibits most of them, no matter how good the idea's are.
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 9, 2010 03:30AM)
Mandarin,

You're right, sharing ideas is a good and funny thing to do.
My point was may be irrespectful. I didn't want to.

I just pointed that IMO, with the team involved in LM and the price of 300$,
one could expect that some creativity, some very valuable ideas would have been already input. It looks like an unfinished work.

But the way I did was not very good : too much sarcastic may be and irrespectul for those you like Little Man, and I don't have to comment that. I hope those who will buy it, will make good things with it.
Message: Posted by: zorbinski (Jan 9, 2010 07:18AM)
I just want to say a little something, to give another perspective on this. I am only a few years old in the magic world, and I am not a professional performer. I am a hobbyist, and I certainly don't have "deep pockets." I have gone through phases, but through it all, I have to say that Paul Harris is my favorite creator. The things he does with normal items is incredible. I find visual beauty in effects like "Buck Naked" and TA's "Transcendental Bar Bet." I am at the point where I can work out most "tricks" when I see them. Again, I am a hobbyist, though "experienced", not a working professional. I show magic to my friends, family, and co-workers. My "work" is in sales, and I love to sell. (I do understand that good magicians are good salesman, and usually vice-versa. At this point in time, I do not feel I am "good enough" to be a professional, nor do I think I want to be.) So, onto Little Man. Honestly, I was never impressed with the effect. When everyone was hyping it up on here, and complaining about "no demo", I was trying to figure out what everyone saw it it. I just didn't get it. I couldn't imagine this reaching "astonishment." I think what some others were trying to say here, too, is that people's brains are going to immediately put it in a "box" (If you're familiar with PH's definition of astonishment from AoA book 1). Just like everyone who has seen the demo has done. You immediately saw a m****t. You may not know where, or how, but you are sure of it from the motion. But, on the other hand, you have to realize that this is US seeing the demo. AND we had so much built up over the past few months, that there was NO WAY a demo VIDEO would surprise us. I feel we put too many expectations into Little Man. It seems that the big letdown comes from our own expectations of what Little Man's walking was going to look like. BUT, remember that we created fantasies in our head for a long time. Little Man does exactly what they said he would do. And if you can show the bag first, you can show the container, you can rip the dough up, etc, and denounce all notions of the method, How is this not amazing? Imagine you are a very smart layperson. Someone says they want to show you something, and they proceed with the little man routine in the demo, right in front of you. You examine the bag and everything, and find nothing. I really feel that the moment he starts to move, there will be a moment of astonishment. If not, at least a bit of surprise. It is CLAY for God's sake! And there is nothing to find upon examination. Now, I do feel that this is not for a working professional yet. I just don't think it would work for any professional situations (although I'm not a pro, so someone may disagree). I hate to say it, but I agree with whoever said earlier that it's for "hobbyists with deep pockets." It really is. But to say that it's not amazing, I think, is forgetting that we have been playing with Little Man for months in our heads. And now that a demo is up, it is less than what we WANTED it to be. Also, we don't know yet, why it is $300. There may be an expensive part of the gimmick. Remember, this is coming from the man who gave us True Astonishments for only $300. That was a steal. But anyway, I just wanted to say this, because I feel that everyone on here is "right", in that, their opinion is valid to some extent. We are all different in how we use our magic. Everyone is arguing, but it's all apples to oranges. And people seem frustrated that it's not what they were expecting. What exactly were you expecting?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 9, 2010 08:04AM)
Ricardo-

Thanks for considering my point, and for your reply. I also see what you are saying, but until we see the finished offering we don't know how much presentation info will be included.

Could be it will follow a trend I have seen in magic (and elsewhere) that I think may have started with the "sequel" idea from movies - i.e. intentionally leave the first offering lacking, so you can follow it up with version 2, 3, etc. I think we can all find examples of this ploy.

Then again, the first thumb tip offering was likely not much more than the thumb tip.

zorbinski-

I am sure you have some good things to contribute, but I can not bring myself to wade thru that huge continuum- some paragraphing would be appreciated...

Regards,

Jim
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 9, 2010 09:10AM)
Mandarin,

I'm not sure the trend you mention, if it would be, is a good marketing idea :
a this price I personaly, as a customer, wouldn't like to know that the version I buy is not as good as the ones that will be marketed later.

If magic begin to look like some Microsoft Windows systems... I'm not sure the ones who do that will have a good reputation.

In other words, I don't want to be a "victim" of some experimental process.

300$, in my world, imply quality.

ps : good to see you take no offense. :)

Regards
Message: Posted by: The Great Smartini (Jan 9, 2010 01:45PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-09 10:10, ricardo carpenter wrote:
Mandarin,

I'm not sure the trend you mention, if it would be, is a good marketing idea :
a this price I personaly, as a customer, wouldn't like to know that the version I buy is not as good as the ones that will be marketed later.

If magic begin to look like some Microsoft Windows systems... I'm not sure the ones who do that will have a good reputation.

In other words, I don't want to be a "victim" of some experimental process.

300$, in my world, imply quality.

ps : good to see you take no offense. :)

Regards
[/quote]

Ricardo,

You would think that $300 would imply some sort of quality but in todays world this simply isn't so. Sad isn't it?

jeff
Message: Posted by: Genghis (Jan 9, 2010 01:54PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-09 08:18, zorbinski wrote:
I just want to say a little something, to give another .....[/quote]

And that;s as far as I got. Good Sir, please format your posts to make them easier to read - then they will be. In the meantime, we don't have the stamina! :)

Genghis.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 9, 2010 04:22PM)
Hi zorbinski,

I am interrested to read what you have to say, but I will admit it was hard to follow along with. It was still readable though. I don't think anyone is expecting proper grammar and correct spelling everytime, but little does help. :)

Also, welcome aboard!
Message: Posted by: Stevethomas (Jan 9, 2010 04:48PM)
I would probably purchase this if I worked this type situation.

Steve
Message: Posted by: edh (Jan 9, 2010 05:35PM)
What type situation is that Steve?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 9, 2010 06:53PM)
Ricardo-

The Great Smartini is right- and, yes it is sad, especially for those of us who remember how it used to be.

Regarding the trend I mentioned, perhaps I overstated as a result of personal experience. I bought Fiber Optics just weeks before Fiber Optics Extended came out. Then I went for Extreme Burn, and here comes Extreme Burn 2! Maybe, though, those are the only 2 and I am off in my comment.

I do agree that for 3 bills, it should come with some good presentation ideas...

Regards,

Jim
Message: Posted by: Crowslide (Jan 9, 2010 07:17PM)
Showed my girlfriend the demo video. She thought the bag seemed fishy.. the way that it's handled...the placement of the container right on the end in a strange manner... thought that the bag was the secret. I don'tver share methods with her and this time I just showed the video and asked for first impresssions.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jan 9, 2010 07:53PM)
Paul Harris is a genius. Little Man looks great and will definitely entertain any audience. I still have no idea how it works. This effect presents so many possibilities for other routines as well. Those who are harshly critical of this need to give it a rest. Go Paul!
Message: Posted by: PHSIS (Jan 9, 2010 08:45PM)
Hello Everyone

Just a head''s up that there are more Questions and Answers on my blog at the
PHP site. Go into the Shop and see it on the left hand column.

Also, a demo is in the works with a performance and audience reaction.

Someone mentioned the heart beat sound. Paul mentioned to me there may be something included that can be played on an MP3 player along with your performance.

Janet
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jan 9, 2010 10:13PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-09 21:45, PHSIS wrote:

[b]Someone mentioned the heart beat sound. Paul mentioned to me there may be something included that can be played on an MP3 player along with your performance.[/b]
[/quote]

Very nice idea! :)

Thanks.

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: ebinary (Jan 10, 2010 12:05AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-09 20:53, tdowell wrote:
Little Man looks great and will definitely entertain ANY audience....[/quote]

I guess if it entertained every audience, you wouldn't have to ask people to stop dissing it.
Message: Posted by: BIlly James (Jan 10, 2010 12:47AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-09 08:18, zorbinski wrote:

...Paul Harris is my favorite creator. Little Man does exactly what they said he would do...

...Remember, this is coming from the man who gave us True Astonishments for only $300...

...What exactly were you expecting?...

[/quote]

* Point 1 - Ad description "YES, HE'S MOVING FORWARD AND ACTUALLY WALKING... ONE ASTONISHING STEP AT A TIME!" Call me old fashioned, but THAT'S what I think people were expecting.

* Point 2 -

[img]http://knightsdiy.co.uk/catalog/images/tetrion_purpose_filler.jpg[/img]

* Point 3 - "YES, HE'S MOVING FORWARD AND ACTUALLY WALKING... ONE ASTONISHING STEP AT A TIME!"

:devilish:
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jan 10, 2010 02:31AM)
LOL, whaaa, How's it going down? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AognXgM9FQ
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 10, 2010 02:35AM)
.
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Jan 10, 2010 04:28AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-09 20:53, tdowell wrote:
Paul Harris is a genius. Little Man looks great and will definitely entertain any audience. I still have no idea how it works. This effect presents so many possibilities for other routines as well. Those who are harshly critical of this need to give it a rest. Go Paul!
[/quote]

Oops ,

You really have to learn to read the nuances of a thread.

The time for aggressively reacting to each other like barking dogs has well passed on this thread and people are generally at peace with the fact that others may hold a different opinion on the effect. There is therefore some proper balanced discussion going on...that is until you come on with your post designed just to wind folk up again.

"Paul Harris is a genius" - Bit of a redundant statement really as virtually everybody on the thread has acknowledged his contribition to magic - as ever the phrase Genius is thrown around too much- there are very few geniuses around.

"Little Man looks great and will definitely entertain any audience"- The phrase that's missing off the beginning of this is "I THINK", because this is your opinion not a statement of truth. You could add some value to your statement by adding on the end "BECAUSE......".

"I still have no idea how it works" - that's really good news as there are a ton of magic suppliers out there who specialise in producing effects for people who, despite practicing magic , seem to have no ability to come up with the slightest bit of creativity themselves- I call it the goldfish principle where no amount of knowledge ever seems to stick.

"Those who are harshly critical of this need to give it a rest."- I am not sure you can say anybody has been harshly critical and the rest of your post is just rude - hence my response.

As I said at the beginning , we are now into the balanced discussion side of the thread so, my aberration being the exception, it would be nice if we could keep it that way.
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jan 10, 2010 04:56AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-10 05:28, Gilgamesh_The_Librarian wrote:
As I said at the beginning , we are now into the balanced discussion side of the thread so, my aberration being the exception, it would be nice if we could keep it that way.
[/quote]

Very well said.
Message: Posted by: PCoreyB (Jan 10, 2010 07:12AM)
I think we should all be kind to "Little Man". After all, he just lost his great grandfather. Seriously Art Clokey, the creator of Gumby and Davey and Goliath, died Friday at the age of 88. He was definitely an "out of the box" thinker that inspired many others, perhaps some of us, to think the same way.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jan 10, 2010 08:10AM)
I suspect Clokey would have been proud....
Message: Posted by: markthorold (Jan 10, 2010 11:45AM)
At long last I returned to the thread (after what seemed like a lifetime waiting for a demo video) and searched for said demo , found it , saved myself a packet ... if that's walking then I'm the next Latin-American Ballroom champion of the world.
Mark
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 10, 2010 11:50AM)
Good post, Gilgamesh!

Sad to hear about Gumby's news...
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 10, 2010 12:44PM)
I see that a new demo will be provided. I don't see many people actually complaining about the quality of the demo itself, or complaining it wasn't performed in front of an audience though. (two things the new demo will provide)

It was originally made very clear that a rough demo would be posted, and that's what we got, a rough demo. There are many other issues, and concerns that have been raised that have nothing to do with the demo not being performed in front of an audience.

I am thinking that having a better quality demo of Little Man performed in front of an audience may turn out to be counter productive by raising suspicion on the audience members choosen. (I have seen this happen with other demo's for other products, that's why I say that)

I have read posts in other threads where people have brought up the suspicion of audience members, and the suspicions that they were pre-arranged. Now, I'm not saying that will be the case with the new demo, but isn't there a good chance that that could happen in this case?

I personally don't think there was anything wrong with showing Little Man perform without an audience because I usually over look the audience when watching a demo anyways. I personally never judge a product by the audiences reactions in a demo.
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 10, 2010 02:03PM)
Hopefully a lot of the criticism will prove constructive and help improve Little Man before release. Just an idea but how about listing the things we'd like to see improved so PHP can work on these before release. I'd like to see:

1. Improved walking. Rather than rotating each side I'd like to see 1 foot slide forward at a time.
2. More steps, at the moment it seems to be a lot of build up for a relatively short walk. I'm afraid people will miss the walk, especially when performing to larger crowds.
3. A bigger bag, it seems odd to work on something so small.
4. Can the tub appear a little less uniform and attached to the bag, at the moment it looks fixed in place, unnatural and suspicious.
5. Options to perform Little Man on something other than the bag or instructions on adapting the effect to other surfaces.
6. To be able to perform Little Man without adding card to the feet. I know a "naked" version has been promised but at present I have no idea what this actually means.
7. I'd like the possibility to make the figure as large as possible and certainly larger than an additional 1/3 the size shown in the video, again for larger audiences.
Message: Posted by: Amiable (Jan 10, 2010 02:59PM)
@Havens: That is Little Man 2.0. It is to be released in 2012**.





** or when everyone who wants Little Man 1.0 has purchased one, whichever is earlier.
Message: Posted by: Havens (Jan 10, 2010 03:31PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-10 15:59, Amiable wrote:
@Havens: That is Little Man 2.0. It is to be released in 2012**.
** or when everyone who wants Little Man 1.0 has purchased one, whichever is earlier.
[/quote]

Exactly. I'm hoping PHP will benefit from the feedback gained by the early announcement of the product.
Message: Posted by: amedica (Jan 10, 2010 05:37PM)
A demo with an audience would be great
Message: Posted by: ziggystarsane (Jan 10, 2010 06:19PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-10 18:37, amedica wrote:
A demo with an audience would be great
[/quote]

It took us long enough to get the one we have.... It might be easier to simply show the current one on a big screen to a live studio audience!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 10, 2010 07:30PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-10 19:19, ziggystarsane wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-10 18:37, amedica wrote:
A demo with an audience would be great
[/quote]

It took us long enough to get the one we have.... It might be easier to simply show the current one on a big screen to a live studio audience!
[/quote]

with the L&L audience?
Message: Posted by: ziggystarsane (Jan 10, 2010 07:55PM)
With the L&L audience?
[/quote]


HAHA....Brilliant, It's always good to see a familiar face or two
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Jan 10, 2010 08:27PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-06 13:38, runawayjag wrote:
The unfortunate thing is that the action looks like a magnet is making the little doll shuffle, even if it is not, and that is exactly what spectators will think. So, I think the mystery element is gone, no matter how clever the actual method really is.
[/quote]

yes I agree 100%: a saying in magic states exactly that

no matter if spectators have the wrong solution: as long as they believe they have the solution.

a wrong solution is as bad as the right one


other than that.... I think that poor little man is so cute and hes trying to do his best to walk
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jan 10, 2010 08:43PM)
That's why the walking needs to be a means to a very magical end instead of an end itself.
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 11, 2010 01:39AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-10 20:55, ziggystarsane wrote:
With the L&L audience?
[/quote]


HAHA....Brilliant, It's always good to see a familiar face or two
[/quote]

I LOVE the L&L audience!

ACE
Message: Posted by: amedica (Jan 11, 2010 03:34AM)
The one leg at a time suggestion seems a little unrealistic
Message: Posted by: johndraws (Jan 11, 2010 04:07AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 13:53, Robert M wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-08 05:08, Sybilmagic wrote:
[quote]

I think it was Angelo Carbone's idea to make a penguin rather than a little man.

Have to agree with Pete. Perhaps it's time to lock this unproductive thread. I wish those who criticize would stop and think about how much time, effort, and expense goes into creating something like this.

Robert
[/quote]

I don't see your point. I work as a professional software engineer. A team can work for years on an application that is beautifully written but might not even see the light of day due to strong criticism. Why is Paul Harris et al. immune to valid points about the what we have seen? The thread is prouductive as it gives other magicians the oppurtunity to prove or disprove their opinion of what they have seen. This is about making informed choices and this thread is helping magicians through that thought process.

I have seen far stronger critique of other products on the market and those threads don't get locked. Prehaps the Café has made a deal to sell advertising for 'Little Man' and therefore doesn't want to support any negative vibes that magicians might have?

Seriously, there is nothing unproductive about this thread apart from the posts that feel the need to wrap the producers of Little Man in cotton wool and tell them that magicians are unable to make informed decisions based on the audiences they perform to.

If anyone does have postives then post them. I like to see a balanced arguement. To be honest the postives so far feel like magicians clutching a straws rather than tweaking the routine.

Just for balance I will always be indebted to Paul Harris for his creative thinking and AOA books and ability to produce some exceptional material. His thinking is thought provoking. No one is questioning Paul Harris' contribution to the Magic community but people do like to make an informed opinion.
[/quote]

All I'm saying is... if this was your trick, I don't think you'd appreciate all the negativity before the product is even released, especially by people who don't even plan on purchasing it. This isn't about "informed choices" because the trick isn't even available yet.

I think we should at least wait until Little Man is released before we crucify him. Surely no one really believed that Little Man was going to walk like a real person or did they? Sometimes I think magicians are more gullible than lay people.

The "creative" thread that Steve Hook started seems to be much more productive than this one - at least at this point. No one's trying to censor anyone. I just wish those who are so quick to criticize would try to put themselves in Paul's or Rodney's or Mark's shoes. It's so easy to be critical yet so incredibly hard to be the one who creates all this cool stuff.

Peace,
Robert
[/quote]

Again to parrot what has already been said. No one is negating Paul's contributions to magic. However, a creator should hear much of what is being said about their product. Whether it is the anticipation of it's release or the actual review. What everyone here is giving feedback on is on this video's representation of Little Man. IF they did not want to hear the hype...they would not have put it out before the release of the effect. This is exactly what the boards are for. Discussion. No one should pat anyone on the back just because it took time and effort to create something. If the trick is poorly represented, executed or even weakly designed it NEEDS to be pointed out.It also needs to be heard by Paul. It certainly will be voiced by an audience.
Simply put.. If not...nothing improves. In the old days, if you were demonstrating a trick ( in a bar instead of a message board) to the professionals and it was poor, you would be eaten alive. That honest "punch" you described...is needed. Why lock it? After 20 pages....I doubt anyone would have to read on to get the overwhelming feedback that this is not what was expected and people are disappointed in it. Simply taking it away or locking it out...will not prevent it from existing. Just turning a blind eye to it. As a creater...you should WANT to hear it. I find it hard to believe Paul would have been suprised to hear such lashback. He took WAY to long to put out a promotional video and before it was released already started to offer a "bonus".
Oh...and to wonder if anyone believed that it would actually take a step one leg at a time? It stated that in the add, why would they NOT believe it? Gullible? I have a better phrase. Misrepresentation. Then you imply that people don't have the class they should because they are calling him on it? I think you have it backwards.

Honesty. Want it. Grow from it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Jan 11, 2010 05:36AM)
Live Clay-mation action would have been a better description of 'Little Man'.

Fully examinable is another description, which needs revision as I know some audiences that would tear up the bag and pull all the clay out of the container to prove they will not be fooled.

I have been a Paul Harris fan since his 1st publication, but ever since he left for several years and has returned to magic, it seems he is just selling his name to tricks of other peoples. No one hears from him in any form, so is it a Paul Harris creation. I do not see any Paul Harris creativity in this effect at all.

This Little Man would have been a top seller in the 1960's, but I think audiences are a little more knowledgeable today. And the price, it is over the top for a close up effect, but that seems to be the magic $ amount that is attached to exclusive new items on the market today.

The effect is what I thought would finally turn out, I did not believe the ad in the 1st place. I did think it would have the little 'Playskool' hat included though.

Not a bad effect, if it wasn't misrepresented by the original advertising.
Message: Posted by: ricardo carpenter (Jan 11, 2010 06:17AM)
Is it really a failure?

are we not fully astonished?
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jan 11, 2010 02:21PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-11 04:34, amedica wrote:
The one leg at a time suggestion seems a little unrealistic
[/quote]
Agreed. The cost for that improvement may be hundreds of dollars more. As it is, the clay man actually shuffles, and technically, shuffling is indeed a form of walking. Reminds me of Tim Conway's "Little old man" on the old Carol Burnette show.

But for the little guy to raise each leg, perhaps bend the knees, put each foot down as he steps, would require technology, I'm afraid far beyond the reach of Even Paul Harris. More along the lines of George Lucas and ILM, I'd say.

THe right music would be nice, here.. Gollywog's cake-walk would be appropriate.
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 11, 2010 03:23PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-11 06:36, wmhegbli wrote:
Live Clay-mation action would have been a better description of 'Little Man'.

[/quote]

Good Description wm. That is exactly what I was expecting. That is how a clay person walks. And that is fully how I was expecting him to walk. When I first saw the ad, I imagined "clay-mation" walking, and this was what was in my mind. I don't see the big deal. He is walking taking a step at a time(in Clay-mation land).
This is like bringing a cartoon to life.

I still probably will not get this, as I don't do table top magic.

ACE :dance:
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Jan 11, 2010 03:38PM)
Just a reminder: There are 2 other threads running about creative ways to potentially use "Little Man". Here are the links for both. They're tucked away for some reason in the "Little Darlings" section, but both threads contain some decidedly mature (and entertaining) themes:

Positive creative ideas for "Little Man"
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=346194&forum=17&44

and

Little Man presentation ideas
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=346176&forum=17&15

Robert M
Message: Posted by: professorwhut (Jan 11, 2010 03:54PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjFXnJc0Q0U
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Jan 11, 2010 05:07PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-11 16:54, professorwhut wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjFXnJc0Q0U
[/quote]

lol I remember those!
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jan 11, 2010 06:06PM)
I think the reason one of those threads was moved was because it was off topic for this forum (Latest and Greatest), and rather than just delete it, it was moved to the Little Darlings forum where someone had started the same kind of thread already. Thus, the reason for having two threads for similiar topics.
Message: Posted by: amedica (Jan 11, 2010 07:49PM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-11 16:54, professorwhut wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjFXnJc0Q0U
[/quote]

Buy in bulk! lol
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jan 12, 2010 07:21AM)
[quote]
On 2010-01-11 18:07, Acecardician wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-01-11 16:54, professorwhut wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjFXnJc0Q0U
[/quote]

lol I remember those!
[/quote]

Man, what great memories!!! I loved that toy when I was a kid!