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Topic: Mind Power vs. Radar
Message: Posted by: thumpton (Sep 28, 2009 04:42PM)
I am seriously considering purchasing a Mind Power deck for an effect where I need a spectator to silently select a seen card. However I'm not entirely sure a Radar deck wouldn't be better for me. Has anyone used both and can compare for me?

While I would usually have a table for a ribbon spread, there may be times when it would be better to spread the cards from hand-to-hand as several spectators make their selections, as I've seen Osterlind do with his Radar deck.

The selection will be quick and the cards will then go away. Of course I could purchase both and use as appropriate, but I don't know as I need to. Is a table required for Mind Power? Suggestions?
Message: Posted by: Zebaztian (Sep 29, 2009 03:14AM)
That's a question I wanted to ask as well. Did you read my mind? In that case, you don't need the Radar nor Mind Power Deck. Both effects are the more or less the same, but the Radar Deck is cheaper. Why is that? And if the effects are actually the same, isn't this a copyright issue?

Who can help us out?

By the way, do not reveal the trick. I'm thinking of buying of the two, but which one? Any tips?
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Sep 29, 2009 07:04AM)
Zebaztian,

I really don't think the Mind Power Deck is exactly like my Radar Deck.

My effect is based on the Koran Deck and many others. There are many subtleties, of course, such as the exact construction and the fact that you don't really ask questions and what you do say is very little to get a lot of information.

I think I first put out the Radar Deck about 25 years ago, but I would have to look it up to find the exact year. I had a slightly different and earlier version that I put in the Linking Ring and it won an award.

Richard
Message: Posted by: pearljamjeff (Sep 29, 2009 03:37PM)
Richard is right. They are not the same at all. I'm sure there is a way to work the radar deck for one spectator, but I haven't come up with it yet. Radar is my preference for audiences of four or more. Mind Power is my preference for one on one.

The pros and cons of the Mind Power Deck:

Pros -
* All of the cards may be shown to be different. Not examined, but shown. (Note: some may argue that this ventures into the arena of "over-proving")
* No, a table is not required.
* It works one-on-one.

Cons -
* The reveal of the card may have more "no" responses than the Radar deck.
* The cards are bridge sized with a weird back design. (Maybe there are bicycle versions out there now, but at the time I bought mine, there were not.)
* More expensive. The price difference is probably due to the gaffed nature of the MPD. If you lose your deck, you will need to buy another... or make one and lose the ability to show the cards as different.
* Deck cannot be shuffled. (False is fine, but shuffling isn't really needed.)



Pros and Cons of the Radar Deck:

Pros -

* Multiple reveals.
* You can even tell them the card they "almost" thought of, in addition to the one they settled on. (To be fair, you can probably do this with the MPD as well, but this concept was not explored in the MPD materials.)
* Normal cards. If you lose your deck, you can make another fairly easily if you have to. Buying a replacement is also fairly inexpensive.
* Seemingly no fishing at all.

Cons -

* Four people required for the routine as described. Like I said, there might be a way to come up with a process for a single person, but this would potentially lessen the impact.
* Cards cannot be shown fully for a prolonged period of time. Easily remedied with a s***ch after the routine. Giving the supposed deck out as a souvenir.
* Deck cannot be shuffled. (Shuffling is not really needed.)


For a great use of the mind power deck, see Derren Brown's "Smoke" routine. He uses a different reveal process that eliminates some of the potential for "no" responses.

For a great demonstration of the Radar Deck, see Richard Osterlind's Mind Mysteries Volume One DVD. He destroys an entire room with this routine. In mentalism, the more involved you can get the audience, the better. For that reason, I would give a slight edge to the Radar Deck, as long as you have the audience to support it. That said, they are both phenomenal concepts in their own right. Both are very worthy to have in your collection.

I hope that helps?
Message: Posted by: Zebaztian (Sep 29, 2009 04:01PM)
Thanks Richard and Jeff. It certainly looks like the decks are more different than I thought. If I see Jeff's explanation I tend more to the Radar Deck. If read Richard's answer, the Radar Deck is the better one (of course, Richard ;-). Altough I like to do tricks one on one, instead of one on four... I must think and consider a bit more. The costs defenitely plays a role.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Sep 29, 2009 04:15PM)
MPD has one huge advantage which is explored by Derren Brown, as Jeff mentioned. Specifically, you can have a thought of card disappear from the deck to reappear at any other location.

After purchasing 'The Act' from Osterlind I saw how awesome the Radar deck can be. So I made up a modified version which uses the same cards in the MPD. That way, I have less to remember regardless of which deck I'm using. It's the same group of cards.

In fact, the only time I use the MPD now is if I'm doing a 'Thought of Cards Across' type effect. Otherwise, I stick with the Radar deck because it's so simple to use with multiple spectators. And because you're using normal cards, if you drop them or bang them up over the course of standard performing they are easy to replace--MPD is quite expensive by comparison.
Message: Posted by: thumpton (Sep 29, 2009 11:10PM)
Great information! Thanks to all.

I have watched both Darren Brown and Richard's performances and they are, of course, fantastic. Like Zebaztian I need to consider it a bit more, and resist the urge to have both immediately. I will consider my audience, the routines I am creating for them, the venues ... and THEN probably give in to the urge and happily get both. I'm fairly sure Radar is in my future for my routine, but I might just have to have MPD for 1-on-1s with family and friends and the odd unsuspecting "improptus" where I need the card to vanish from the deck and reappear elsewhere. [Great suggestion on using the same group of cards.]

I have never been disappointed with either Darren or Richard's effects or instruction. Even when not performing, my Osterlind Breakthrough Card System effects are rarely out of reach.

Again, thanks for your posts!
Message: Posted by: JoeBlack (Nov 25, 2009 06:09PM)
Can anyone tell me if the versions of the Mind Power Deck being sold now are printed on standard bicycle cards? I have seen many people saying they don't look like bicycles etc, but don't know if its an old version or the present one.

Thanks in advance, and sorry for going slightly off-topic.
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Nov 26, 2009 12:40AM)
Mind Power Deck - Bicycle cards!

http://www.johnkennedymagic.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=16
Message: Posted by: JoeBlack (Nov 26, 2009 10:47AM)
I guess that means they are printed on real bicycle cards.
Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Nov 26, 2009 12:18PM)
First time I saw a magician use the Mind Power deck I remember I had no clue how it was done. One tiny question and he know my card.

This is a powerhouse effect IF done flawless. True.
Message: Posted by: Noskcid the Fantastic (Nov 27, 2009 11:01PM)
This past weekend I was playing poker with some new friends and one of them happens to be a very proficient card trick artist. He took the deck from the table, showed me a group of cards, asked me to think of one and proceeded to tell me which card I was thinking of. So is this trick possible with a normal deck of cards, or do any of you believe that he may have pulled a deck switch?
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (Nov 28, 2009 01:35AM)
Yes, you can do a similar effect w. a normal deck of cards.
One example: Allan Ackermans Impromptu Ultra Mental, think of a card effect.
Message: Posted by: Noskcid the Fantastic (Nov 28, 2009 10:19PM)
Thank you for the reference Kjellstrom! Can't wait to check it out.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Dec 1, 2009 08:10PM)
[quote]
On 2009-09-29 16:37, pearljamjeff wrote:
Richard is right. They are not the same at all. I'm sure there is a way to work the radar deck for one spectator, but I haven't come up with it yet. Radar is my preference for audiences of four or more. Mind Power is my preference for one on one.

The pros and cons of the Mind Power Deck:

Pros -
* All of the cards may be shown to be different. Not examined, but shown. (Note: some may argue that this ventures into the arena of "over-proving")
* No, a table is not required.
* It works one-on-one.

Cons -
* The reveal of the card may have more "no" responses than the Radar deck.
* The cards are bridge sized with a weird back design. (Maybe there are bicycle versions out there now, but at the time I bought mine, there were not.)
* More expensive. The price difference is probably due to the gaffed nature of the MPD. If you lose your deck, you will need to buy another... or make one and lose the ability to show the cards as different.
* Deck cannot be shuffled. (False is fine, but shuffling isn't really needed.)



Pros and Cons of the Radar Deck:

Pros -

* Multiple reveals.
* You can even tell them the card they "almost" thought of, in addition to the one they settled on. (To be fair, you can probably do this with the MPD as well, but this concept was not explored in the MPD materials.)
* Normal cards. If you lose your deck, you can make another fairly easily if you have to. Buying a replacement is also fairly inexpensive.
* Seemingly no fishing at all.

Cons -

* Four people required for the routine as described. Like I said, there might be a way to come up with a process for a single person, but this would potentially lessen the impact.
* Cards cannot be shown fully for a prolonged period of time. Easily remedied with a s***ch after the routine. Giving the supposed deck out as a souvenir.
* Deck cannot be shuffled. (Shuffling is not really needed.)


For a great use of the mind power deck, see Derren Brown's "Smoke" routine. He uses a different reveal process that eliminates some of the potential for "no" responses.

For a great demonstration of the Radar Deck, see Richard Osterlind's Mind Mysteries Volume One DVD. He destroys an entire room with this routine. In mentalism, the more involved you can get the audience, the better. For that reason, I would give a slight edge to the Radar Deck, as long as you have the audience to support it. That said, they are both phenomenal concepts in their own right. Both are very worthy to have in your collection.

I hope that helps?
[/quote]


Great info, thanks!!! :) I only have used Richard's Radar Deck, very nice. Once I started his BCS, I basically only use that one now when I use cards.

C
Message: Posted by: PSYSHADOW (Dec 6, 2009 08:32AM)
Richard's Radar Deck all the way for me!
Message: Posted by: david blown (Jan 2, 2010 08:59AM)
There is the version of Derren Brown using the Mind Power Deck, its really a fantastic trick!!! I would go with the mind power deck all the way!!! (with the biggest respect to R. Osterlind). The MPD is in my opinion a very good approach to the thematic.

(I like ungaffed deck versions much more, and have come across some very interesting ideas, but for a quick go MPD in my opinion is great)
Message: Posted by: david blown (Jan 2, 2010 09:00AM)
Check out his "the devils picturebook", the MPD effect - if I remember correctly - should be included somewhere... its called smoke or similar
Message: Posted by: david blown (Jan 2, 2010 09:01AM)
There is another deck called "dream deck" by nick verna and jeff bloom, they say its better than MPD and peter duffie agrees.. do a quicksearch on the Café

best, David
Message: Posted by: JSBLOOM (Jan 31, 2010 10:29AM)
Review for Dream Deck can be found here:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=344097&forum=109
Message: Posted by: MerlH (Feb 2, 2010 10:59AM)
There is a trick titled "Intercept 99" by Harvey Berg which uses a borrowed deck which is similar in effect to these two effects. I personally use a radar type deck and mind power but you might be interested in Intercept. It takes a little more work than the other two but being impromptu, it does have its advantages.
Message: Posted by: ReviewerMaster (Feb 4, 2010 05:10AM)
Which one is more suitable for smaller group? Mind Power?
Message: Posted by: Andy Moss (Feb 5, 2010 05:43AM)
It does however not get much cleaner or direct than the 'Test Condition Card Trick' by Richard Osterlind used in conjuction with a 'Card Case Peek'.
Message: Posted by: JSBLOOM (Feb 5, 2010 01:52PM)
If looking to reveal more than 1 thought of card, I'd go with the the MIND POWER deck.
If looking to do a one card reveal, I'd go with the dream deck, but then again, I am obvoiusly biased, but peter duffie's review is spot on.
If looking for a ANY thought of card with proof you wrote it down, you might want to check out Cerebral manipulation.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=346388&forum=109
Hope this helps.
Message: Posted by: Bob Farmer (Mar 2, 2010 06:41AM)
Harvey Berg's trick is just a bad reworking of Vernon's "Out of Sight, Out of Mind." Don't waste your money. The Mind Power Deck solves a problem that doesn't exist and the fishing sequence isn't very good. Save your cash. The Dream Deck has a trick description that makes no sense -- it is not a think-of-card deck at all since the spectator tells you the card he's thinking of (the trick description says no questions are asked -- if that's true how does the spectator know to name his card?). Keep your cash.

Richard Osterlind's "Radar Deck" is the one you want, or you can buy my "Tsunami" manuscript for $10 and make up a Tsunami deck for a few bucks.
Message: Posted by: Zebaztian (Mar 2, 2010 04:36PM)
All these decks have things in common, although there are differences. My Snap Card Trick is also such a deck: http://tinyurl.com/snapcardtrick .
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Mar 4, 2010 09:40AM)
Bob, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The Mind Power Deck lets you achieve effects simply not possible with the Radar Deck. Look at Derren Brown's Smoke as one example. I also do a full deck variation of Simon Aronson's Red-See Passover with the MPD.

The ability to have a thought of card vanish from the deck is incredibly powerful and cannot be done with the Radar Deck. However, if you're looking to divine 3 or 4 spectators selections then yes, I agree that there really is no advantage to the MPD over the Radar Deck in that case.
Message: Posted by: Bob Farmer (Mar 5, 2010 10:02AM)
Steven, yes I agree.

I have an unpublished effect, "The Bammo Oblivion Deck," where not only does the thought card disappear, but the spectator (who spreads the deck himself) finds the three mates to his thought card (and he never names the card until [b]after[/b] he makes this discovery). There are no duplicate cards.

Needless to say, this is not possible with any other deck so far invented.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Mar 5, 2010 12:30PM)
Just FYI, with the Radar Deck you can use 1-4 participants--you are not limited to 4.
Message: Posted by: Russell Davidson (Apr 16, 2010 06:18AM)
Have to disagree with Bob too on the MPD. I use Derren Brown's method to reduce the selection. Although you can do this one to one, I think 3 or 4 specs works better & allows you to reveal at least one of them apparently without any questioning. It's all in the presentation, some real reading of reactions to a couple of statements (optional if you can't do that) & you have a miracle on your hands. Never had a bad response to this, always blows them away.
Haven't got a Radar deck but I like the sound of telling them the card they almost chose. May have to get that too!
Probably not real, but did anyone see Criss Angel let someone fan through a deck with his back turned & he was telling them what card they chose as well as ones they were looking at & nearly picked?
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Apr 16, 2010 12:42PM)
Bob, the Bammo Oblivion Deck sounds fantastic. Is this something that you've released or are planning to release?

UncleBunkle, this is not only possible but is an effect I learned from Ben Earl's Past Midnight DVD set. I have used it to great effect and it is a real killer. Don't know if Angel is using the same method but it does require more work than most magi are willing to put in.
Message: Posted by: Damon Zale (Apr 16, 2010 08:43PM)
I like Radar deck because it uses regular cards - that gives you more options. For example, you can say have someone (or even 2 people) take a card from the deck , then divine it .
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Apr 17, 2010 12:33PM)
Dimazales, I wouldn't recommend having the specatator take a card from the deck for three reasons:

[list]
[*] The whole point of the Radar Deck is to allow people to simply mentally pick a card while you're fanning through them. Having them take the card substantially reduces the impact of the effect, which is diving a simply thought of card.
[*] If you want to have people take a card from the deck then you can achieve the same effect with any rosary stack using a regular deck of cards. In that case there is no fishing, you can simply tell them what they've chosen. In fact, Osterlind's BCS is ideal for this purpose.
[*] If you have two people take a card from the Radar Deck then there is a good chance that they will end up holding the same card. In that case, the effect is ruined on the audience.
[/list]
Message: Posted by: Damon Zale (Apr 18, 2010 06:54AM)
Thanks Steven. I never would. I just made a point that I like the fact that the cards are regular in Radar Deck and to support the point came up with (after reading your post) bad example of a benefit :)
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Apr 18, 2010 09:51AM)
I agree. If you're just having spectators mentally select a card and then you plan to reveal them, there is no benefit to the MPD over the Radar Deck.
Message: Posted by: jsereb (Aug 7, 2010 09:22PM)
Thumpton -

A table is NOT required for either deck. From the audience's POV, the effects are very similar. The real difference is Radar you can make yourself while MPD you cannot.
Message: Posted by: karnak (Aug 8, 2010 11:30AM)
[quote]The Mind Power Deck lets you achieve effects simply not possible with the Radar Deck.... I also do a full deck variation of Simon Aronson's Red-See Passover with the MPD.[/quote]

I'd really like to hear more about this, as this basic effect/plot is one that I'm personally quite enamored of, and I've long been pondering various ways of doing a full-deck version of RSP (using two decks, one red & one blue).
Message: Posted by: Simon Bakker (Aug 16, 2010 04:59AM)
A while ago somebody posted another great idea with the mind power deck: a premonition routine (I can't remember who it was, though).

Have somebody look at a card from a red deck, a blue backed deck is in view the whole time. The spectator looks through the blue deck for his thought of card (which he doesn't name out loud)and counts the cards while he looks for it. Their are only 51 cards, the thought of card is missing. Only then does the spectator names the card he thought of, it is produced from an envelope or pocket or whatever.

Great thinking, great routine!
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Aug 16, 2010 08:02AM)
Simon, you don't need a MP Deck for this routine; but I've to admit that your index is getting smaller.... :) Jan
Message: Posted by: Simon Bakker (Aug 16, 2010 08:14AM)
Hi Jan,

Are you talking about the original Premonition routine or perhaps Ted Lesleys version? I'm familiar with both.

I like this version is nice because everything is out in the open from the beginning and the index is significantly smaller. But perhaps we should discuss this through PM, because it is a bit off-topic. ;-). I love the effect, and I'm always open for suggestions concerning strong variations!
Message: Posted by: Skilless (Nov 8, 2010 09:39PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-02 17:36, Zebaztian wrote:
All these decks have things in common, although there are differences. My Snap Card Trick is also such a deck: http://tinyurl.com/snapcardtrick .
[/quote]

Thanks, I just bought this! It looks like an excellent effect.
Message: Posted by: Skilless (Nov 8, 2010 09:43PM)
[quote]
On 2010-03-05 11:02, Bob Farmer wrote:
Steven, yes I agree.

I have an unpublished effect, "The Bammo Oblivion Deck," where not only does the thought card disappear, but the spectator (who spreads the deck himself) finds the three mates to his thought card (and he never names the card until [b]after[/b] he makes this discovery). There are no duplicate cards.

Needless to say, this is not possible with any other deck so far invented.
[/quote]

Sounds fascinating. Is unpublished equivalent to unavailable?
Message: Posted by: Don-G (Dec 21, 2010 04:03PM)
Can anyone advise me on the degree of memory required for the Radar Deck? Being and aged geriatric, memory can be a bit of a problem, would this make using this deck difficult?