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Topic: DB - How To Beat a Casino
Message: Posted by: richpoyle (Oct 2, 2009 07:30PM)
This was such a terrible show, it deserves a thread of its own.

Did DB and team learn nothing from the lottery fiasco? How out of touch are they?

Given the current financial climate, how many of DB's audience would not notice £5000 disappearing from their bank account in the course of a week? How many would have £5000 saved in the first place? How many could walk into a bank and simply withdraw £5000 IN CASH in a matter of moments? "It could be you!". ******** could it! How many viewers have £5000 sitting in their bank account waiting to be withdrawn? Not many!

How many actually believe it's possible to manually calculate the trajectory of a moving ball against the movement of a roulette wheel (despite the traffic stunt convincer), let alone where it will land?

Now, the aerosol stunt was rather nice, especially the stencul kicker.

But how many people believe that really was live footage of a DB playing in a casino rather than a pre-recorded and heavily processed segment? The whole 'mystery location in Europe' thing was done before and exposed in his Russian Roulette stunt. So don't go there again. The actual casino looked like a studio set to me. Anyone agree? And since casinos are really alert to people concealing electronic equipment as described in the program, how come DB and his cameraman got in with no problems?

What a complete and utter misfire. And a very disappointing end to the series.

If and when DB returns to 4, he needs to do a HELL of a lot better than this!
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 2, 2009 07:55PM)
Any video of it yet?
Message: Posted by: thehawk (Oct 2, 2009 08:00PM)
Best way to beat a casino is with a big stick.
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Oct 2, 2009 08:19PM)
Slim, your taking the p*** aren't you???

Kam
Message: Posted by: richpoyle (Oct 2, 2009 08:29PM)
Some comments from a TV discussion forum demonstrate just how badly convceived this show was:

"£5,000 well I'm not going to get Derren's call."

"Yes, the biggest miracle would be if he found £5000 in my account!"

"So a person with a spare unnoticed 5 grand is spending Friday night at home watching TV. The lives of the jet set."

"The most obvious fake thing was when Derren phoned Ben and at the end of the conversation Derren said “Can you see yourself on the telly” and the guy said "yes" in a surprised voice when he had been standing watching it during the whole conversation.2

"The first number not answering is a nice bit of misdirection."

"How did they know he had £5k+ in his bank account? DO banks just hand over £5k in cash, no questions asked, without demanding notice or other forms of ID?"

"Tiny camera? It's massive!!"

"So 'Ben' had £5,000 drawn from his bank account several days ago and he had no knowledge of it? Just as well he hasn't checked his balance or got a statement etc in the past few days then. A right crock of nonsense this is."

"Fake casino. Fake roulette wheel. Fake people."

"This is as ridiculous as the Lottery one.
He must think we are all idiots."

"Crap casino for 10PM/11PM CET - no ambience, hardly any people, etc..."

"That's got to be Europe's quietest Casino!!!"

"As if you can just randomly walk up to a table and lay down £5k straight away."

"Can someone please explain what the hell that was supposed to be. 1 hr leading up to an epic fail? What was the point."

That was weak. Ignoring the fact that wasn't a casino at all, because that's a given.. it even looks exactly the same as the one they were in with the guy from Real Hustle (who, for a con-artist, is a suprisingly bad actor)... Derren's patter was sub par. You can't carry a super computer (for that is what you would need) in your shorts, but a camera which is broadcasting is fine? The casino can detect one but not the other? Plus what's the deal with the massive "hidden" (sticking out his sleeve) analogue camera and crappy reception? What is this 1997? He could have broadcast from an cheap phone camera that had been pulled to pieces so the camera was stuck behind a button, the casino would have been none the wiser and it would have been better quality.

"The bit that takes the cake is the squash court numbers. Seriously Derren? You expect a human being to believe you calculated a (biblical scale) equation in your head so accurately that you were able to allow for the millimetre of clearance that ball got as it bounced over the divider between 38 and 37? "Now I'm going to hit the number on this pad, with a pen, behind your back. The camera will be showing both things at once so they clearly happened at the same time!" I'm sure even a small child would have immediately said.. why don't you just shout out the number Derren? How does he find the people to take part in this show? That's his true gift. If indeed he doesn't just do it with stooges nowadays."

And for certain posters in another thread ...

"Oh and any time the people from event 1 discussions want to come on board and show how he wrapped up that heap of garbage tonight and how it was all part of a master plan...feel free"
Message: Posted by: stashu (Oct 2, 2009 08:50PM)
I couldn't possibly agree more!

I was NOT entertained, in fact it made me alittle angry, and that's not just because I may have anger management issues, because, I used to really like this guy, now I don't.

forget about him outright making fun of the remote viewing guy, poor guy, I could have cried for him, you know, no one likes a bully, and you cant win friends or influence people by calling them stupid, either outright, or implied, I thought mind controlers knew that, poor rv guy :(

Forget about his approach to everything, when fake psychics do this, when fake psychics do that, I mean, give it a break already, I don't have presentations like when a mentalist does this or a mentalist does that, or when a magician does this or when a magician does that, but forget my issue with his patter.

The issue I have, is this last episode, which, really got my blood boiling, this guy is really playing us all for big time suckers, give me an entertaining lie, don't play me for a sucker!

Theres a difference between feeling entertained, and feeling played, played for a sucker, and boy this guy must really think people are stupid, and that's for sure!
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Oct 2, 2009 09:24PM)
I guess it's a good thing Kanye didn't show up...

Nathan
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 2, 2009 10:45PM)
Is this affecting the sale price of his previously written material? Is there any video yet? Was there someone on the grassy knoll? :)

I held off an commenting about the Grand Wrap Up that so many predicted would come.... I guess it didn't then?

[quote]
On 2009-10-02 21:19, kambiz wrote:
Slim, your taking the p*** aren't you???

Kam
[/quote]

I'm taking my PILLS ( ??? ) ...Yes! Is that what you were asking? Of course I'm drinking a bit of Rum on top just to insure their effectiveness :)

The bottle calls it a warning but it sounds more like a suggestion to me :)
Message: Posted by: muse (Oct 3, 2009 03:44AM)
Sadly, it wasn't his best series, a curate's egg that was good in parts, but some of the the big set pieces misfired for me. That's not to say that the good parts weren't very good, but if it was intentionally edgy to end the series on a near miss, the (non-magic / mentalistic) friends I watched it with took it as just being a miss, and were left feeling flat and saying the series didn't grab them. And if it was a truly unstaged ending, it was surely too big a risk to end the series on. I was waiting for the twist at the end. (Actually, I still am, I'm half expecting channel 4 to come up with something stunning today to reverse the impression the show left.)

Who am I to criticise Derren Brown though? From a choice of material and performance point of view, I know my opinions have nothing to offer or teach him. But as a viewer, as one of the target audience, I was disappointed, and I know I'm not the only one.

It's great to push the boundaries of what you do, and goodness knows Derren Brown has done that and with great success over his career, but there is a risk of falling short sometimes when you do, and that's what this series did in my opinion. It must be hard to go from a spiky half hour of alternative entertainment to a prime time one hour show, where the demands to astonish are that much greater. He is one of the greats, but not even the best can succeed every time they try.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 3, 2009 04:49AM)
Lets not forget, he doesn't make shows for us...he makes shows that are entertaining to the public...a few interesting quotes from people on non-magic forums:

"Am v confused . . . yes being 1 out is pretty amazing, but Derren is a tricksy wizard and never fails at anything.
Looking forward to Enigma in April though!!"

"Wow Derren, I still believe that his was planned from the beginning because I have faith that you could actually deliver this if you really wanted to. What a spectacular way to end the series! Still in confused/shocked/disbelief mode, Awesome!"

"One off!!! It was so painful! You sounded quite upset Derren! Don’t get down about it though, it’s still an achievement to get sooooo close in something so randomized!

That guys face at the end was an absolute picture though, it has to be said!"
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 3, 2009 05:35AM)
Yes is was all more than a little embarrassing. I don't know how much longer the DB team can sit back and say: "Ah but what the critics don't understand is that the vast majority of the public are stupid."
I agree with NEARLY all of the above opinions. The very best magicians and mentalsts are very aware of the word PLAUSIBILITY. If a thing isn't at least plausible then you should never go there(other than a purely commercial magic show).
Actually there's no doubt in my mind that the mark 'may have been' genuine. That he was well sourced and that he truly did take out the £5k and hand it over and: "NOT be worried in any way shape or form when you see that it's missing from your statement, should it arrive at any time during the next few days".
But yes it was all too obvious that the casino did not exist, what with the permitted use of hanging camera from the ceiling whist at the same time DB wearing a covert camera. Now that wasn't their best idea huh?
And pray tell me which members of the watching British public would not be able to fathom out (or hear it from their friends)that he misses by one to make it look really really really really close, thus justifying the commissioning of the show, but coincidentally NOT falling in the slot which of course would increase that commissioning budget by £175,000.
But as muse said: who are we to give advice? Perhaps the people who should be on DB's advisory team, that's who!
Although changing the hair colour to light gingery brown and painting over the bald patch was their best idea of the show.
Message: Posted by: Caliban (Oct 3, 2009 05:43AM)
And why was a casino in mainland Europe using pounds as its currency?

Derren supposedly had £5000 sterling - and he used it to buy ten chips, each with a value of 500 of whatever currency the casino uses.
Message: Posted by: Drewmcadam (Oct 3, 2009 05:49AM)
<<quotes from people on non-magic forums>>

Let's be straight here, these are from the Derren Brown luvvies (his stalkers) forum. The reactions from non-magicians are more like this, just in:
"I don't know why I even wasted my time watching him last night. The 'listening to car speed' was so far fetched there surely can not be anyone over the age of six who thinks he did anything of the sort. Squash ball prediction - showing slo-mo did him no favours - showed ball bouncing off non visible channels. Casino pish - just pish! PJ

And I'm afraid THAT is the general reaction in non-magic land. What WERE the crew thinking when they came up with this? Either: Derren and Co went for the big, flash, magic trick dressed up as something else - and failed. Or they really think that the viewing audience are idiots. Paul Daniels reportedly suggested Derren get one wrong on the lottery prediction - that might have made it stronger. It certainly did NOT make the casino outcome stronger.

It was amateurish beyond belief.

Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of Derren's work. I feel terrible posting a negative post. Indeed, I know that much of my income comes from the fact that in describing what I do, my manager will often have to resort to comparing it with Derren's act. That usually clinches the deal...

It's the old trap again, isn't it? MInd Magic doesn't work. It's either MIND or MAGIC but a hybrid simply does not work.

I DO hope the Objective team have got that straight now - and get back to what they do best. It's what fascinates, and - more importantly - it's what the audiences want. Let's all learn from it.

Drew
Message: Posted by: Nash (Oct 3, 2009 05:58AM)
Why are people all of a sudden mad at Derren Brwon for giving fake explanation when it has been his shtick since day one?

If you think he is insulting your intelligent now, well then he has been doing it since DAY ONE.
Sounds like another case where an entertainer reaches his peak and people wants to bring him down ... the same people that brought him up in the first place.
Message: Posted by: JonWhite (Oct 3, 2009 05:59AM)
Also, what about the £20 note trick and the girl he kept calling a loser?

It's one thing to show some "remote viewing" numpty as deluded but this just seemed mean.
Message: Posted by: Drewmcadam (Oct 3, 2009 06:00AM)
Oh, yeah, and another thing. I see he is plugging this Science of Scams to educate the world about the faslehood of the psychic. PLEASE tell me he's not going to turn into another Ranting Randi. That would just be too much.
Message: Posted by: Mesaboogie (Oct 3, 2009 06:22AM)
Very implausible explanation, absolutely!!! but entertaining? For me, yes. I enjoyed it as did my friends watching it with me. I actually felt the ending was right on the mark. My only criticism is that almost ALL of his "live audience" segments in the series have been achieved with P**S*** H*******. I want to see more effects performed to people he really HAS just genuinelly met, but I guess the effect will always be less clean, so I do see his reasoning for it.

I enjoyed the series though, but nothing comes close to his live shows.

Andrew
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 3, 2009 06:35AM)
His live shows are brilliant, and much of his telly stuff is brilliant. But last night fell short of the mark for me. The ending, while it saved him money, was a sour note. The time for getting close but wrong was the lottery prediction, not here. Also, his treatment of the woman he kept calling a loser was appalling. A low point in his career.
Message: Posted by: mike stevenson (Oct 3, 2009 07:07AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 06:59, JonWhite wrote:
Also, what about the £20 note trick and the girl he kept calling a loser?

It's one thing to show some "remote viewing" numpty as deluded but this just seemed mean.
[/quote]

Overall I enjoyed the show, but this was the one thing I didn't like.

After referring to her as a loser several times, I assumed the effect would go along the lines of Derren transferring the male participant's confidence and luck into the girl, and she ends up winning the game continuously.

But he left her with nothing, other than being called a loser. I didn't get that at all, it seemed very out of character.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 3, 2009 07:54AM)
I wonder if he's trying to put people off him in some way? no idea why...but, perhaps he's going to come back with something darker and more edgy? I wonder if he's now aiming at a different audience?
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Oct 3, 2009 09:59AM)
Must just be me. I loved it. How could anyone here not enjoy that nod to mentalists at the end. Brilliant finish to a great series.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Oct 3, 2009 10:42AM)
I haven't even watched it yet & I loved it...if it makes you guys mad...that makes me happy...whiners.

Nathan
Message: Posted by: BillyTheSquid (Oct 3, 2009 11:53AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 10:59, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Must just be me. I loved it. How could anyone here not enjoy that nod to mentalists at the end. Brilliant finish to a great series.

Anthony
[/quote]

"One off" - had me in stitches!!! Wonder if the Knepper has seen this?

Loved Roni's Graffiti effect!

I did think though that the £20 showed a side of him that I'd rather he not put on stage. I did think the woman would win as he seemed to be so much of a gent in the past. Not any more in my opinion though. Calling her a loser so many times quite frankly stank and that's not just my opinion, it's quite a few non-magi friends opinions too.

I too agree with the preshow hy***sis - far too much in my opinion.

It didn't take a genius friend of mine to work out that there must have been someone else under the bridge with a speedcamera and some sort of electronic signalling to do this stunt.

Matt
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 3, 2009 12:16PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 08:54, IAIN wrote:
I wonder if he's trying to put people off him in some way? no idea why...but, perhaps he's going to come back with something darker and more edgy? I wonder if he's now aiming at a different audience?
[/quote]

I think you are right. He is aiming at a wider audience. I think its the only way he can survive and increase the lenght of time he has on TV. Market changes it goes through different levels of sophistication. It does look like he is attepmting to prolong his TV career at any cost.

I have no idea if its working or not. Time will tell. But everybody's career ends some time apart from Kreskin it seems.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 3, 2009 12:18PM)
Though, saying all that - the BBC offered him a massive deal a couple of years back...prime time tv show on a saturday too...if he wanted it, he could have...

I think somethings afoot though...maybe he's getting sick of people on forums constantly discussing him and his methods?
Message: Posted by: blackESP (Oct 3, 2009 01:48PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 13:18, IAIN wrote:
I think somethings afoot though...maybe he's getting sick of people on forums constantly discussing him and his methods?
[/quote]

Doing the things that he does, it's ALWAYS going to get people discussing how he might or might not have done it. He can't really take the huff over it.

And I doubt he cares about what goes on on magic forums. It's a miniscule section of his audience. People discussing it here and other places won't have any effect on his ticket sales or future viewing figures.

I had a look at a few forums this morning to see what was being said, and it's only a handful of people talking about it, sometimes the same people!

I sometimes think magicians over-estimate the public's interest in what they do.
Message: Posted by: Gerry Hennessey (Oct 3, 2009 02:04PM)
"There in one thing worse than being talked about, that is not being talked about"
Oscar Wilde.
Message: Posted by: stashu (Oct 3, 2009 02:59PM)
Am I crazy, or does this bother anyone other than me?"

First off, just let me say, I just care about people too much to make them feel stupid or belittle anyones beliefs, and Derren always does both.

Yes, I know I'm a nobody entertainer, I'm just an normal ordinary guy who likes being mystified, and as an normal ordinary guy, I am telling you I don't like the way he chooses to entertain, a) I'm not mystified, b) I'm played for an idiot c) my beliefs are belittled.


Please, for those who don't understand what I mean, let me give you an example.

FOR EXAMPLE,

Independent online studies suggest only 8% of people were actually stuck to thier seats, Derrens HYPNOSIS wasnt that successful, where as WELL KNOWN "PSYCHICS" have thought projected esp symbols, and even less predictable objects with success rates reaching anywhere from 25% to 43% in some cases.

Now, WHY don't YOU SEE PSYCHIC ENTERTAINERS USING PATTER LIKE DERREN USES, replace hypnosis with the word psychic and you have a lead in to many demonstrations that he does

FOR EXAMPLE

"I don't believe hypnosis exists, (kreskin argued this in court by the way), Its never been proven scientifically, these hynotists, or dirtbags, or lyers, or cheats, etc, etc, are all using techniques I use, the only difference is I am better than all hypnotists and mind controllers even though I use the same TRICKS they use, let me show you how they do it!"

On Richard and Judy, Whenever you see a psychic do this....(map test)
Whenever you see a psychic attempt this, from the gathering

How about a demonstration where I start off by saying all hypnotists/mindcontrollers are dirtbags who manipulate and take advantage of people in desperate situations, in times of sadness, in times of loss, and take there money, etc etc,

its just sooooo annoying but whatever,


I just care about people, I'd rather see a demonstration of what anyone can do when they put thier mind to it, some people accept they have untapped powers, some people don't, and I respect both! None is any better than the other!

I don't manipulate people with psychology, suggestion, misdirection, or showmanship, because I wouldnt want to be manipulated or made a fool of,
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 3, 2009 03:26PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 14:48, blackESP wrote:
[/quote]
I doubt he cares about what goes on on magic forums. It's a miniscule section of his audience. People discussing it here and other places won't have any effect on his ticket sales or future viewing figures.
[/quote]

First of all he does care and quite a lot. And he does NOT look upon us as a section of his actual audience but rather completely understands we are members of his peer group. Where else would his peer group materialise from, plumbers?
His ticket sales in the near future are guaranteed, but what his peer group think of him is not, and that's important to him.

[quote]
I sometimes think magicians over-estimate the public's interest in what they do.
[/quote]
We've always known that. Just as that we totally appreciate our delusions of granduer.

As I've already stated, I am very much aware that the members of Objective, including DB, regularly enter The Café to find out what we think of their work. If you look at all the above opinions you'll see that the 'working mentalists' truly know just how good this was. And, (remember this is just between us so no harm done) it wasn't complete sh-te but it wasn't too clever either. Quite a bit of money spent but the thinking behind it was a bit amateurish. Sorry but I know you want the truth and not the words of excited followers. Try to do better and we'll love you again.
Message: Posted by: blackESP (Oct 3, 2009 03:47PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 16:26, bobser wrote:

First of all he does care and quite a lot. And he does NOT look upon us as a section of his actual audience but rather completely understands we are members of his peer group. Where else would his peer group materialise from, plumbers?
His ticket sales in the near future are guaranteed, but what his peer group think of him is not, and that's important to him.
[/quote]

Well,that might be (though I certainly don't consider myself a peer of DB, I'm a proud hobbyist/amateur) but I was responding to Iain, who implied The Events turned out like they did because Derren might be sick of people discussing his methods.

Whether you want to call those people his fans or peers, it's still a tiny, tiny amount of those watching. He might care about what people on these forums say, but can you honestly see him turning out a quite frankly weird (and not it a good way) series like the Events to impress/p*ss off/whatever these few people at the expense of entertaining the millions who just want to watch a TV show?
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 3, 2009 04:08PM)
Sorry blackESP but I don't quite understand what you're saying.
Message: Posted by: Matze (Oct 3, 2009 04:27PM)
I didn't think the last show was bad at all...I expected a bigger finale tho..something to sum all the episodes up.that was kind of disappointing

but overall the whole series was a lot of fun to watch...I didn't care too much for the "big stunt" of each episode.I had a lot more fun with the little effects during each episode,most of them were absolutely baffling

p.s whats up with that? http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ipt9bl&s=4

lol,derren sure is myterious
Message: Posted by: Lord Of The Horses (Oct 3, 2009 05:40PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 07:00, Drewmcadam wrote:
Oh, yeah, and another thing. I see he is plugging this Science of Scams to educate the world about the faslehood of the psychic. PLEASE tell me he's not going to turn into another Ranting Randi. That would just be too much.
[/quote]
Drew,

Interesting thought... I confess that I've had once or twice the same thought about Derren's next steps.

We will see...
Message: Posted by: magicmayne (Oct 4, 2009 12:35AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-02 20:55, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Any video of it yet?
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU6zQza52RU&feature=channel
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Oct 4, 2009 12:50AM)
My opinion :and this has nothing to do with mr.Brown

the idea of taking money to bet from accounts is bad taste: of course that was fake too

the setup and theme of the show: highly unreal

thumbs down
Message: Posted by: NFox (Oct 4, 2009 02:36AM)
To those saying that the time to get one wrong was during the lottery seem not to understand how promotion works.

In short, you want to knock their socks off, then leave them wanting. That's exactly what Derren did across this four-episode arc.

They say that the best advertisements are the ones that create a deficit in a person subconsciously. What could be a bigger deficit than having no satisfaction after it's been promised to them (I had that through my teenage years. Believe me, it's no fun. :P)?

Don't take my word for it, just look around the web, where Derren's name is only just a click away. The next time he has a special, he'll have people asking themselves how he can redeem himself. Accordingly, they'll tune it, and just as accordingly, Derren will blow them away all over again.

-Nick
Message: Posted by: Nikodini (Oct 4, 2009 03:12AM)
The miss only adds to realism.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 4, 2009 04:27AM)
Oh dear, what room am I in? I thouight the kids had to be in bed by nine!
Message: Posted by: naquada (Oct 4, 2009 06:39AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 10:59, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Must just be me. I loved it. How could anyone here not enjoy that nod to mentalists at the end. Brilliant finish to a great series.

Anthony
[/quote]

completely agree... the whole series has been full of 'nods' and in jokes... the number 30 came up a few times in the last show.. including the big red 30 on the side of the van..

from a publicity point of view... he's done exactly what he needed.. :) from an entertainment point of view.. it was good telly.. everything was done for a reason... failure of not :)
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 4, 2009 08:40AM)
Did anyone come out with viewership numbers?
It would be interesting to see how the people responded thru the series.
Message: Posted by: Mesaboogie (Oct 4, 2009 09:37AM)
Had two gigs last night and Derren's show was still fresh in peoples minds so I made a point of asking people their thoughts. The majority thought it was an excellent show and the miss made them realise how genuine it all was. The age range spanned 20 - 60 yr olds. Need I say more?
Message: Posted by: AttnPls (Oct 4, 2009 10:11AM)
I did think the "loser" trick was a bit harsh. I felt bad for the girl and expect a star like Derren to be just a little kinder... she needed to ultimately win somehow.

Judging car speed by hearing stretched plausibility a little too far. That sequence needed to be rethought.

The hidden camera casino footage was not terribly compelling either. I would have liked to have seen a guest host take the audience through much of the "real time" sequence while we cut away to Derren in position in the casino, watching the wheel for 20 minutes before it was time to place his bet. Perhaps he could even have done a "practice prediction" or two before the final one where he placed the bet.

Beyond that, I felt that Derren once again provided us with some of the best magic ever made for TV. The premise was superb and compelling. The marketing is just brilliant.

I would LOVE to write for Derren some day. He is truly showing us all how our art can be compellingly pushed into the 21st century.
Message: Posted by: Mind (Oct 4, 2009 10:31AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-03 06:59, JonWhite wrote:
Also, what about the £20 note trick and the girl he kept calling a loser?

It's one thing to show some "remote viewing" numpty as deluded but this just seemed mean.
[/quote]

This is something that spoilt the Enigma show for me. Many of his comments during the 'Guess Whom' routine in particular I found distasteful.

And I remember him doing this many years ago during a televised comedy charity event (I can't remember which one), and he made some insulting remarks about the audience being cheap. I was about to see him live a few weeks later for the first time and I remember feeling a bit concerned that he would be unpleasant to watch. Gladly he wasn't like that, and it was a great show.

I really don't agree with insulting your audience and making them feel lower than you. It might make everyone else in the room laugh, but I can imagine that some people would not be comfortable on stage with a performer like that. If there is a risk that your spectator may be reluctant to volunteer again in the future, or even be put off seeing you again, then I don't think that's a risk the performer should take. But I guess Derren is in a position where he can take these risks and it won't affect his ticket sales/rating figures too much. Still wrong though, imo.

For the most part I've really enjoyed this series. This final episode was a bit of a let down, but over all still entertaining to watch. Really enjoyed the spray paint effect.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 4, 2009 11:24AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-04 10:37, Mesaboogie wrote:
Had two gigs last night and Derren's show was still fresh in peoples minds so I made a point of asking people their thoughts. The majority thought it was an excellent show and the miss made them realise how genuine it all was. The age range spanned 20 - 60 yr olds. Need I say more?
[/quote]

Were the gigs mentalism or music?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan (Oct 4, 2009 11:53AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-04 03:36, NFox wrote:
To those saying that the time to get one wrong was during the lottery seem not to understand how promotion works.

In short, you want to knock their socks off, then leave them wanting. That's exactly what Derren did across this four-episode arc.

They say that the best advertisements are the ones that create a deficit in a person subconsciously. What could be a bigger deficit than having no satisfaction after it's been promised to them (I had that through my teenage years. Believe me, it's no fun. :P)?

Don't take my word for it, just look around the web, where Derren's name is only just a click away. The next time he has a special, he'll have people asking themselves how he can redeem himself. Accordingly, they'll tune it, and just as accordingly, Derren will blow them away all over again.

-Nick
[/quote]

So the way to make it on TV is to start out with something that makes the audience feel cheated and then end with a big failure? With all respect, I think many on here are really reaching to try and find a way that DB might be right. We all know how that works with cold reading and with people who want to believe in the paranormal. No matter what happens, they reframe it and try really hard to find a way to make it still fit what they believe.

The truth is that DB probably did use camera effects (why make everyone think he was if there was no twist ending to the series?) and then insulted the intelligence of the audience. Ending with failure, especially when there was no chance of actually winning, was a huge miscalculation. It might have been okay earlier in the series, but definitely not for the big finale, especially when you needed to redeem yourself!

Publicity isn't always good. Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, Michael Jackson, etc. generated some of the most publicity of anyone in history...but it ruined their careers.
Message: Posted by: iambest (Oct 4, 2009 12:20PM)
I wasn't as delighted by this show as all the previous ones but I think you got the big finish all wrong. Didn't anybody see Derren standing with a huge 180 000 pound check outside the van just at the end of the show? Implying that it really wasn't live footage from the casino and that he actually already succeed... ;)
I liked it!
Message: Posted by: Gilgamesh_The_Librarian (Oct 4, 2009 12:22PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-04 12:53, Jonathan wrote:

So the way to make it on TV is to start out with something that makes the audience feel cheated and then end with a big failure? With all respect, I think many on here are really reaching to try and find a way that DB might be right. We all know how that works with cold reading and with people who want to believe in the paranormal. No matter what happens, they reframe it and try really hard to find a way to make it still fit what they believe.

The truth is that DB probably did use camera effects (why make everyone think he was if there was no twist ending to the series?) and then insulted the intelligence of the audience. Ending with failure, especially when there was no chance of actually winning, was a huge miscalculation. It might have been okay earlier in the series, but definitely not for the big finale, especially when you needed to redeem yourself!

Publicity isn't always good. Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, Michael Jackson, etc. generated some of the most publicity of anyone in history...but it ruined their careers.
[/quote]

Agree with Jonathan on this.

The other thing people are saying is that this was Derrens idea of a joke. Well that's fine if the joke is there for your audience to get , but many obviously didn't get it , and that is the would be jokers fault not his audience.

I think the series has been lacklustre and lazy and I had warmed to Derren over the years to suddenly feel a bit insulted by this rubbish. It feels like he really phoned in these performances.

A great shame.
Message: Posted by: Ian Broadmore (Oct 4, 2009 01:03PM)
The show was rubbish, utter crap that raised expectations and had a complete cop out of an ending. I think DB & Objective are treating their audience like idiots, a big mistake.
Give it a few years and DB will go the same way as Paul Daniels, off screen.
Its all very well trying to entertain an audience but when you treat them as Idiots you loose them.
Its impossible to carry any electronic equipment into a casino, and it was so set up. I thought a very cheap show, that just cheapens DB which is a great shame as I think he is a great showman, but DB & Team you cocked up and misjudged your audience big time.
Message: Posted by: Nikodini (Oct 4, 2009 02:18PM)
A big letdown? Oh puhleese! It's a brilliant ending and journalist in UK agree. Check out what The Guardian says:

[quote]9.53pm: OK, here's the thing. If Derren Brown has come up with a technique to predict the course of a roulette wheel by being able to gauge the speed of the ball and predict where it might land, then it's clearly brilliant, and he should demonstrate it with no ambiguity about where he is and whether it's real. Take it to a real casino, in full view, where we can all see him do it. I'd believe it - he's a clever guy.

All this hidden camera, secret location stuff makes people ask questions about whether it's just a trick, so why do it? I find it frustrating, because I think he's better than this.

9.59pm: Well, this just got interesting. In the casino, Derren was one out, so he loses Ben's money. And then...the show ends.

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is a twist. I love it. I'm laughing my head off.

10.02pm: I don't really know what to think. You can say what you like about Derren Brown, but he still manages to take you by surprise at the very end. Maybe the point is that sometimes you just can't beat the system, but it was worth it just for the look on Ben's face when he realised he wasn't adding £175,000 to his bank account.

OK, I'm just glad Ben didn't get the money. Does that make me a bad person? Off to the comment box to see what you all think.

10.09pm: Well, that's it for The Events, and whilst I know a lot of people won't agree with me (please don't throw things), [b]the final five minutes of that show made it all worthwhile. I said earlier that it would be the worst ending to a series EVER, but I was wrong.[/b] Losing was a risky strategy, but brilliant, and I'm still grinning. Derren, by your usual standards it was a ropey series, but you are nevertheless a master of surprise, and I salute you.[/quote]

The ending just adds more to the "it's not all a trick, there's skill involved" mystique that this whole show was about. In real world things can go wrong and people just now learned that DB is human.

This is a MUCH BETTER ending than some random guy winning £170,000 (or whatever)! That ending would have been expected and quite [b]BORING[/b]!
Message: Posted by: cakit (Oct 4, 2009 02:44PM)
For me, the idea of Derren missing the number by 1 shows that mentalist is not always a 100% effect. However, the casino doesn't seem real. It can be a staged set. Also, true as some of you have said, he could have made a practice prediction first before doing it since he has only 1 shot. The winner and loser effect is a bad effect because he should try to uplift the confidence of the lady rather than constantly saying LOSER.

In totality, I think its a nice show but not a great show. Still a lot of his small effects made me think.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 4, 2009 02:59PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-04 10:37, Mesaboogie wrote:
Had two gigs last night and Derren's show was still fresh in peoples minds so I made a point of asking people their thoughts. The majority thought it was an excellent show and the miss made them realise how genuine it all was. The age range spanned 20 - 60 yr olds. Need I say more?
[/quote]

I also had 2 gigs last night and yes I was involved in discussions about DB. But I have to say that the majority thought is was sh*te and they all saw through the miss. Need I say more?
Actually perhaps I should. My gigs involved mainly adults of over 25 years old and working in The City.
It does concern me a little that whilst the majority of lay people I talked with found it rubbish some pro workers giggle with glee at how wonderful it was!!! I find this kinda' worrying. But I guess if you liked it... YOU liked it.
But who are we, whether our tastes are better than yours or not, to call you lot plonkers? That simply wouldn't be correct.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan (Oct 4, 2009 03:26PM)
Remember DB's interview before the series? He thought he would probably be most proud of this series. He flopped. He obviously underestimated the audience.

BTW, I didn't see a large check at the end. ?
Message: Posted by: tmoca (Oct 4, 2009 03:52PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-04 16:26, Jonathan wrote:
Remember DB's interview before the series? He thought he would probably be most proud of this series. He flopped. He obviously underestimated the audience.

BTW, I didn't see a large check at the end. ?
[/quote]

At the very end, you could see one of the guys at the back of the truck was holding a large check. To me, it was to give to the guy if he had won. He didn't so they didn't have to give it to him. That's all I think it was.
Message: Posted by: nimrod (Oct 4, 2009 05:22PM)
Derren shouldn't have ended the show with a miss. Mentalists should never miss (not even slightly) on THE effect of the show.
And yes, the show was a mess. Still the man is a genius. Even his misses are better than the best staff we can do.

Nimrod , Israel
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 4, 2009 05:52PM)
I think it's fantastic just how modest mentalists can be in here. Not losers, just modest. Very very modest. And maybe not good. Or confident. Or maybe lacking in self worth. Or maybe, in truth, well not really that good at this stuff. Can't act, can't wear a n--l w----r. Can't open a double en----pe. Can't can't just can't.
Me? I'd wipe the floor with DB. I'd knock him into a tin can. Wow, now that felt great! And no, I'm not really joking that much to be honest.
C'mon you lot, stand up for chrissakes and give yourselves a shake!!!
Message: Posted by: Pete Legend (Oct 4, 2009 06:01PM)
Lol bobser I agree :D Derren is a fine performer but feck it everyone has massive potential..

The man is not a god..his one of us..I like him his nice..he probadly drinks tea and eats sandwiches like the rest of us :D
Message: Posted by: DT3 (Oct 4, 2009 07:12PM)
I thought it was GREAT...but probably for different reasons than any mentioned here so far.
Message: Posted by: keroro (Oct 4, 2009 09:33PM)
Personally I thought this was the most entertaining out of the four shows.

Concerning the general publics opinion of the shows, beware that the minority will always shout the loudest (i.e the disgruntled and the fanatics). Those who thought the shows were anywhere between mediocre and great probably won't post about it.
Message: Posted by: kenwebster (Oct 5, 2009 04:48AM)
I am a big fan of Derren but this was an awful series. The Casino show was just so bad. I have been a hypnotist for over 25 years and hypnotised over 10,000 people in 21 years in my show in Blackpool. 35 shows a year for 21 years so I think I know what I am talking about ! Trust me it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to hypnotise anyone to hand over 5k. If this was possible I would be watching the show from my holiday home in Barbados !
Message: Posted by: adam wake (Oct 5, 2009 05:26AM)
I don't understand why it's okay to fool the public into thinking that he can do hypnosis that is deadly and scary, yet when it comes to charlatans and fradualents like psychics and mediums, he has to completely call them out like some kind of truth seeker.

I like derren brown, big fan of him but this crusade to uncover fake spiritualists and psychics is getting boring. A generalization that's being seen is that being a magician means you're also a debunker of the supernatural. Now I know this generalization isn't true but that's how some tv magicians make it come across as. This seems to be some kind of trend.

I for one couldn't care about the frauds and charalatans, I don't believe in the supernatural and I never will, so I won't waste time debunking it. And I know a ton of magicians here think the same.

Of course Derren does say that everything he does is a trick, it's just that he does seem to try and bs the public and I don't see much difference to that and some charlatan (not talking about those who may money on dead loved ones because that's messed up and in it's own catergory.)

Any Hypnotist will tell you that what he did was not a trick, it was purely fake. It was acting. I just don't consider that good magic.
Message: Posted by: kenwebster (Oct 5, 2009 06:04AM)
"Any Hypnotist will tell you that what he did was not a trick, it was purely fake. It was acting. I just don't consider that good magic."

WELL SAID ADAM
Message: Posted by: dusty (Oct 5, 2009 06:17AM)
Now I will jump in with a few contentious comments.
There were plenty of comments on last week's show stating that Derren should have a got a least one number wrong. He does that this week and gets hammered for it ???

On the loser, cheap suit etc. comments. Unless the individual concerned is offended then we have no right to be. The Amazing Jonathon abuses audience members throughout the show and the audience love it, why because they know it is in FUN. A recent "live at The Apollo special" had Al Murray, poke fun at 4 girls in the front row apparently belittling their careers as "secretaries" did they take offence? No they howled along with the rest of the audience and revelled in the fact that they were involved.
For heavens sake lighten up!
Message: Posted by: RobertTemple (Oct 5, 2009 06:18AM)
Hypnotism aside... my major criticism is how clearly that wasn't a casino but rather a slightly dodgy roulette wheel in a studio somewhere.

They spent too long explaining why they couldn't tell us where they were (now we know the real reason). Derren has done a few bits and pieces in casinos over the past few years and they've never obscured the casino's identity before.

They said it was to stop this kind of thing from happening in that casino again or some rubbish... hang on - that would imply that just anyone could do what he apparently did.

Hmmm... disappointing end to the series for me.
Message: Posted by: Waters (Oct 5, 2009 06:46AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-05 07:17, dusty wrote:
Now I will jump in with a few contentious comments.
There were plenty of comments on last week's show stating that Derren should have a got a least one number wrong. He does that this week and gets hammered for it ???

On the loser, cheap suit etc. comments. Unless the individual concerned is offended then we have no right to be. The Amazing Jonathon abuses audience members throughout the show and the audience love it, why because they know it is in FUN. A recent "live at The Apollo special" had Al Murray, poke fun at 4 girls in the front row apparently belittling their careers as "secretaries" did they take offence? No they howled along with the rest of the audience and revelled in the fact that they were involved.
For heavens sake lighten up!
[/quote]

I did not see the show, but I would like to (humbly) disagree. People laugh when they feel embarassed. There is no other "socially acceptable" response in the situations mentioned. I did not see the program, so I won't comment on Derren in particular, but it is always in "bad form" to belittle a participant or spectator. While everyone may be laughing, it diminishes us all to a bunch of second rate stand-up comics. "Magic" (meaning all mystery entertainment) has suffered enough from being trivialized and being reduced to a joke, I don't think this needs a hand from each of us.

Ironically, I think Jonathon is more stand-up comic and less a magician. I think the magic is just a vehicle for his comedy (not the other way around). Still, this avenue diminishes both. People laugh because they are nervous. It is hardly the "ideal".

People deserve better.


Sincerely,

Sean
Message: Posted by: dusty (Oct 5, 2009 07:28AM)
Hi Sean,
In principle I agree you should not belittle an audience memeber, but in the case of the cheap suit gaga from last week's show, Derren may not have been pointing at anyone! he gestured towrds the audience and delivered the gag, to which everyone laughed. No particular audience member was picked on or shown on screen. So why the outrage. Quite simply knee jerk reaction, and totally unfounded. The context and delivery of a line is paramount in considering the validity or suitablility of the line but as you said, you didn't see the show.
Message: Posted by: Caliban (Oct 5, 2009 07:29AM)
Sean

I can see your point, but having seen the show I think people are over reacting on this one.

It was a very tongue in cheek presentation in which the two participants were given humorous (and clearly made up) identities as "winner" and "loser". It was really no more than asking them to briefly imagine they were playing those roles. Larry Becker had a Ten Card Poker routine where he apparently hypnotised one person to be the luckiest man in the world and the other to be the unluckiest - that's pretty much all that happened here.

The lady was never insulted, she just took part in a lighthearted experiment for which she was given a clearly invented personality trait. And while performers shouldn't insult people for real, it's a valid and well established technique to cast audience members in roles that everyone knows are not real - so that those fake identities can be used for comic effect.
Message: Posted by: Waters (Oct 5, 2009 07:48AM)
..Fair enough.

As I mentioned, I was not really commenting on Derren's show, but rather that practice in general. A "character driven" effect is different than making sport of other people (which is what I was commenting about).


Regards,

Sean
Message: Posted by: Mind (Oct 5, 2009 08:53AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-05 08:29, Caliban wrote:
It was a very tongue in cheek presentation in which the two participants were given humorous (and clearly made up) identities as "winner" and "loser". It was really no more than asking them to briefly imagine they were playing those roles. Larry Becker had a Ten Card Poker routine where he apparently hypnotised one person to be the luckiest man in the world and the other to be the unluckiest - that's pretty much all that happened here.

[/quote]

But did he not specifically ask for a volunteer who felt they were unlucky/loser?
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 5, 2009 11:18AM)
Having blasted the show I have to say at no time did I deel DB's term of "loser" towards the woman was anything more than tongue in cheek and at no time did I personally feel it was offensive
I'd also like to welcome Ken Webster to the forum. Ken if you're reading this, I have a friend (fellow stage hypnotist) who quite simply loves you (in a purely professional way of course ) and will be thrilled to hear you've joined The Café. You might be naughty, but talented you most certainly are... welcome!
But Ken, in spite of all your experience are you entitely sure a person can't be hypnotised to taking money from their bank account and handing it over?

bobser
Message: Posted by: doubletime (Oct 5, 2009 12:05PM)
I have a feeling that the objective of "the events" was to raise derrens profile internationally, which it surely has. I personally think they've seen the tenth year coming, realised they need to open up some new avenues, and used the events to open up different territories.

new territories mean he can recycle the (excellent) material that he's amassed over the last decade.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 5, 2009 01:18PM)
Why would THIS raise his profile? Why has it SURELY been succesful? Why would this be a new avenue, and which different territories do you think have been opened up? Who are you? Where do you come from?
Are you Derren Brown and have you been drinking too much port again?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 5, 2009 01:22PM)
I felt it was a little too cruel...

I was trying to work out why he did it, sometimes, when you have someone say to you "ooooh I'm just a terrible person sometimes...", if you agree with them, pretty soon they'll punch you, or burst into tears...

but occassionally, they'll come out fighting, saying "hey, I'm not that bad really..i didn't mean it..." then they look embarrassed and see what you just did...

but on national tv - bad derren, dirty derren...too far this time with calling the ugly old troll a loser...

*that last sentence was english humour*
Message: Posted by: doubletime (Oct 5, 2009 01:27PM)
He hit the newsreels in Australis, italy, France, Spain, Germany, Finland, and even brazil (a quick search on the associated press will reveal that it was covered and discussed there for at least two days). The same associated press database will tell you that the uk was the ONLY place where the method was discussed in depth. For the rest of the countries, the myth of predicting the lottery was enough.

Imho, this was a great move for Derren Incorporated.

I think I'm right. But you might be too, bobser. No big deal. It's just telly. not life. or at least, not mine.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan (Oct 5, 2009 01:34PM)
DB needs to read his own book, Absolute Magic and take his own advice about not making fun or taking cheap shots at the audience. ;)

BTW, the reason why you don't do those things is that it makes you like you ARE a comic on "Apollo" or an amazing Johnathan type character...which aren't very respected performers or seen as "high quality". They may be successful and have fans, but we all know that money and success doesn't equal respect and quality in the eyes of the world.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 5, 2009 01:41PM)
Hmmm...i wonder...

if someone were to want to crack a place in the world that didn't go so well before, and! they wanted publicity AND a bit of buzz about them...

I wonder what they'd do?

if only there were a place in say, the states, where there's lots and lots of casinos...

D'oh!
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 5, 2009 01:48PM)
>>>>They may be successful and have fans, but we all know that money and success doesn't equal respect and quality in the eyes of the world. <<<<

I'll take the cash any time.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 5, 2009 02:56PM)
Hery MP, Ken Webster says he couldn't hypnotise someone to go to their bank, cash money and give it to the hypnotist...........
I've just had a thought. I'm taking this to 'inner thoughts'.....
Message: Posted by: Jonathan (Oct 5, 2009 04:13PM)
I could, if it was for TV. :)
Message: Posted by: AnDraíodóir (Oct 6, 2009 04:44AM)
Events of Misdirection... maybe the Events were all about raising his profile, which no one can argue with the fact that they have.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Oct 6, 2009 07:54AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-05 14:22, IAIN wrote:
I felt it was a little too cruel...

I was trying to work out why he did it, sometimes, when you have someone say to you "ooooh I'm just a terrible person sometimes...", if you agree with them, pretty soon they'll punch you, or burst into tears...

but occassionally, they'll come out fighting, saying "hey, I'm not that bad really..i didn't mean it..." then they look embarrassed and see what you just did...

but on national tv - bad derren, dirty derren...too far this time with calling the ugly old troll a loser...

*that last sentence was english humour*
[/quote]

of course if the guy ended up with the note then she could have been made a winner after all.

Ant
Message: Posted by: jediknt (Oct 6, 2009 09:37AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-02 21:29, richpoyle wrote:
Some comments from a TV discussion forum demonstrate just how badly convceived this show was:

"The most obvious fake thing was when Derren phoned Ben and at the end of the conversation Derren said “Can you see yourself on the telly” and the guy said "yes" in a surprised voice when he had been standing watching it during the whole conversation.2

[/quote]


Also, did you notice how much sweat was under Ben's arm pits. He was already nervous before he was on camera. It is not easy to act natural if you are in on the act.
Message: Posted by: Russell Davidson (Oct 6, 2009 09:53AM)
I liked Derren when he first emerged. Seems he's tried to up the ante in these latest episodes & failed badly. If a stunt is too impossible it loses it's punch, people aren't that stupid, if it's not plausable at all then it must be a trick.

You've been good in the past DB, but not so good that people think you're now a god capable of ridiculous Jesus like miracles.
Message: Posted by: jediknt (Oct 6, 2009 10:08AM)
I agree, I liked Brown in his earlier days. "Devils Picture Book" was wonderful and one of my favorites. I just have a difficult time with some of the more Grand stunts and (no offence) any of the Hypnotizing demonstrations he does. I still love DB, but I would like to see hem dial it down a notch or two.
Message: Posted by: adrien (Oct 6, 2009 05:59PM)
Can we watch the show somewhere ?
I don't see it on Youtube.
Message: Posted by: lin (Oct 6, 2009 08:13PM)
Try this:


http://www.youtube.com/user/computersolutions164
Message: Posted by: adrien (Oct 7, 2009 06:11AM)
Indeed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU6zQza52RU&feature=channel

thanks
Message: Posted by: lin (Oct 7, 2009 11:15AM)
Sorry! I meant to send you directly to the appropriate link--not the fellow's entire user page :(

mea culpa
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Oct 8, 2009 07:48AM)
I really don't know what you guys are complaining about...

I thought it was a great Show!

Leaving it NOT working at the end is the brilliance, especially with all that Paul Daniels "get one wrong" with the Lottery thing, in the media...

If any of you who are complaining can make it work for real as a bona fide "fair" effect, THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO BEAT DERREN BROWN... Take it!

If you can, that is... ;)

:online:
Message: Posted by: Hansen (Oct 8, 2009 10:21PM)
What a whiny bunch of female toddlers inhabit this neck of the Café! Shut up and be entertained for crying out loud!! Why pick nits when the nits are all a figment of your own misguided imagination? Sheesh... If you had a ounce of Derren Brown's talent and showmanship I'm guessing you wouldn't be here whinging like a little girl and trying to convice others of your supposed erudition.

What else are you going to watch on TV? Coronation Street?