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Topic: Hypnotising children
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 3, 2009 04:45PM)
I know some of our English colleagues will have all sorts of legalistic and ethical issues with this idea, but a magician approached me today and asked me would it be possible to include a brief bit of hypnosis in his kids party show.

To be honest I had never considered hypnotising kids, but I found the idea intrigueing. The youngest I have hypnotised was a group of 12 year olds at a convent. They had voted on what sort of entertainment they wanted for their end of year party, and the nuns had respected their decision. Obviously they got a completely different sort of show from my regular one.

Has anyone here any experience with hypnotising children? Not that I am planning on bringing hypnosis into the birthday party market, but I am curious. Tony.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Oct 3, 2009 07:21PM)
Here in the U.S., it's not a good idea to hypnotize minors without a parent's consent. When doing hypnotherapy with children, even with consent, it's a good idea to either have a parent with the child of leave a door open so the parent can hear exactly what's going on.

For really young children, the difficulty is with establishing what state the child is in. Normally, young children are constantly in one trance state or another. The key to hypnotizing them is to catch them moving from one state to another and bring them to the state you want. This is going to be difficult for a group of kids.

So I would respectfully suggest that instead of doing a "brief bit of hypnosis," your friends should probably just do a pseudo-hypnosis stunt. Remember, too, that one of the challenges of kid shows is that they often think that what you're doing is real and nothing special. Make a kid forget a number? That's not special. It happens all the time.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 4, 2009 04:59PM)
Many years ago I was invited into a school to talk about hypnosis as my niece had told her teacher what I did.

I did a few mentalism stunts then finished by sticking their hands. While walking through the school to get to the classroom I was watched by a number of teachers my every move. They didn't know why I was there.

My personal feeling is children and hypnosis do not mix. Even the word hypnosis conjures up all kinds of fears a preconcieved ideas from the general public.

I would keep well away from it just think its too risky a thing to do. Not because of the hypnosis but the political correctness and obsession with over protection of children.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 4, 2009 06:11PM)
I always used hypnosis in kids shows. It was pseudo of course and the teachers joined in as I winked to them how it was all good fun. Which it was.
THEY have the collective hypnotic ability to bend the spoon in mid air.
THEY can send hypnotic power to HER as she bends the coin in her hand.
Did any children ever slip into light trance? Silly question on a hypnosis forum so lets not ask it!
Message: Posted by: ScHeRzO (Oct 5, 2009 10:57AM)
I did it once with a kid that saw me doing some magic. He was very impressed with me, then a was with a group of people an he inssisted to hypnotised, so I did. I was shocked how fast he went into trance, I did not have to even make a "consentration test" on ly the induction. I think that is so because kids usually live in hypnotic trances. I did hands stuck on his head and a kitten with him. I was a bit nervous to be hypnotising a child so a drop it. Is there any real danger hypnotising a kind, not legal but fisical or mental?
Message: Posted by: cdelah (Oct 24, 2009 06:07PM)
Go on this website and it will teach you how to hypnotize people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI7lEfWqPkE
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 24, 2009 08:43PM)
That's the scarey thing about the internet the above two posts.
Message: Posted by: TomSilver (Oct 25, 2009 01:25PM)
There is real danger in hypnotizing children and in hypnotizing adults. The subconscious mind can except reality or fantasy and you can activate Phobias, Panic attacks, Anger, Depression, and you can also create extreme negative emotions, and hallucinations and illusions. Hypnosis should not be conducted and played around with by untrained hypnotists. I have seen some horrible things happen to people under the influence of an untrained unethical jerk and he called himself a stage hypnotist. Stage hypnosis conducted by ethical trained hypnotherapists can be fun, entertaining and educational.
Tom Silver
http://www.tomsilver.com
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 25, 2009 06:52PM)
Tom so you have met a few of the regular posters on here?
Message: Posted by: stijnhommes (Oct 26, 2009 06:39PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-25 14:25, TomSilver wrote:
There is real danger in hypnotizing children and in hypnotizing adults. The subconscious mind can except reality or fantasy and you can activate Phobias, Panic attacks, Anger, Depression, and you can also create extreme negative emotions, and hallucinations and illusions. Hypnosis should not be conducted and played around with by untrained hypnotists. I have seen some horrible things happen to people under the influence of an untrained unethical jerk and he called himself a stage hypnotist. Stage hypnosis conducted by ethical trained hypnotherapists can be fun, entertaining and educational.
Tom Silver
http://www.tomsilver.com
[/quote] I discussed this with Anthony Jacquin after seeing his "Manchurian Approach DVD". He avoids hypnotising kids. I think it's a viable idea, but only if the kid is enthusiastic about the idea and if you're reasonably sure the parent is okay with it as well.

Of course, triggering unwanted suggestions is a possibility but the key according to both Anthony and a Dutch hypnotherapist I spoke to, is to stay calm and suggest it away before bringing them out. If you panic and bring them out immediately, the negative experience will stick -- which would be bad. The hypnotherapist even mentioned one instance when he was called on stage by a panicking stage hypnotist who couldn't get his subject out of the trance.

Confidence is key.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 27, 2009 08:44AM)
I think you really miss the point of Tom's post. It equally applies to adults if you READ it.


>>>He avoids hypnotising kids. I think it's a viable idea, but only if the kid is enthusiastic about the idea <<<<

Are you on drugs?

This is what really scares me about this easily accessible hypnosis "training". It attracts numbskulls.
Message: Posted by: Rói Heinason (Oct 27, 2009 07:32PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-27 09:44, mindpunisher wrote:
I think you really miss the point of Tom's post. It equally applies to adults if you READ it.


>>>He avoids hypnotising kids. I think it's a viable idea, but only if the kid is enthusiastic about the idea <<<<

Are you on drugs?

This is what really scares me about this easily accessible hypnosis "training". It attracts numbskulls.
[/quote]

And even though you keep talking about numbskulls. Your name on the forum is mindpunisher? Doesn't seem like the overcareful hypnotist.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 27, 2009 07:42PM)
I keep talking about the numbskulls on here. The forum should change its name to "How to become a professional hypnotist after reading half a book - be the envy of your friends and give advice".

If you can't see the truth in my posts then you are one of them.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 27, 2009 08:21PM)
I did my first show after reading the opening chapters of the condensed version of Ormond McGill's encyclopedia. Half a book worked out fine for me.
Of course I finished the book after the show. In fact I've read a few since then. But half a book did the trick. Tony.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 28, 2009 08:42AM)
Exactly my point.
Message: Posted by: beverage (Nov 12, 2009 05:22PM)
As a tyro I can not comment from direct experience of hypnotism however I do work in therapeutic situations with children and one which of course requires the written consent of their parents or guardians. My training and experience in this field compels me to flag a few warnings so you can make an informed decision.

Personally I think any playful interaction with a child's psychology, psyche or emotional state should be undertaken with extreme caution. You would not even have to do harm (however accidental )to expose yourself to criticism and litigation. Imagine the scenario mentioned above of "forgetting a number" OK probably not a line you would go down anyway but what happens if the child's grades drop the next year. Often parents will seek any explanation other than the one thatmight be real i.e little jimmy is just not as bright as they would have hoped. You could become the focus of a mighty wrath.

Equally and perhaps this is more true of adolescents, these young people are often clever or perhaps crafty in ways we have since forgotten. It is not beyond the wit of most to contemplate how a grumpy teenager might use a hypnotic experience to justify a change in behavior which suited him/her but infuriated the family. I have seen all this happen from other types of intervention but at least in a clinical setting the safety measures and validated research is there to protect the practitioner.

My apologies if this mini essay is too far off the subject.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 12, 2009 06:34PM)
Those are very relevant concerns, Beverage. Thanks for pointing them out.
I feel uncomfortable doing a proper hypnotic routine on kids, but how do people feel about a pseudo hypnosis routine, like the old Dr Q routine?
Message: Posted by: RobertTemple (Nov 13, 2009 01:59PM)
OK.. I'm not going to get into this whole "untrained hypnotist" thing. Although I totally agree with MindPunisher's comments in this thread, it has to be said.

I personally have had plenty of training hands-on with 2 of the busiest working hypnotists in the UK and also seen most of the training DVD's out on the market at some point but... and I don't think that it's a good idea for anyone to go out there after reading a book or a DVD and start using this stuff but...

REALISTICALLY - what can we say is considered an acceptable level of training or knowledge to make somebody safe? The truth is that with no recognisable qualifications or courses we can't really set one.

Plus with everyone in the world having their own personal opinions (which they are entitled to) it would be impossible to set any one tutor's teaching to be a benchmark.

ALSO the truth is, in this game, you NEVER stop learning. This is my 7th year performing my comedy hypnosis show FULL-TIME (I started aged 16) and I know that I learn something new from pretty much every show I do. And I've done over 1,000 of them now (thanks to my summer seasons abroad).

I've spoken to professionals who have been performing a lot longer than I, plus people I regard to be friends (Richard Nongard, the dreaded JR, Adam Night etc etc) and they also agree that they stand in the same position.

With that I don't want to undermine the comments regarding untrained hypnotists going out there BUT I think it's important to remember that you CAN'T ever know everything that there is to know.

Just my thoughts.. feel free to disagree.

RT
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 13, 2009 06:09PM)
>>>Personally I think any playful interaction with a child's psychology, psyche or emotional state should be undertaken with extreme caution. You would not even have to do harm (however accidental )to expose yourself to criticism and litigation.<<<

I don't think it should be undertaken at all. Why? Isn't there enough adults in the world to take part in your shows? Let coco the clown keep them happy.

To me and most lay people it comes across as a bit desparate, irresponsable and has over tones of Pediaphlia. I know this sounds harsh but in an age when you can't photograph your own kids in at a school outing you are leaving yourself wide open for all kinds of stuff you don't want hanging over you.

To me there is something not quite right with someone who wants to hypnotize kids. And I'm telling you now that's the way it will be seen with the majority of the public at least here in the UK.

I don't know about you guys on here but unexpected things DO happen on stage and its not as safe as you all claim it to be. Why include kids? Just get clown outfit on and blow up a few balloons and leave hypnosis out of it.

Before we know it we will have street hypnotists that specialise in hanging around school play grounds waiting to "hypno-attack" teenage girls. This forum attracts some strange dudes and is a bit worrying at times. Its too much for a sensible and sensitive guy like me.
Message: Posted by: hbwolkov (Nov 14, 2009 07:13PM)
TonyB2009,
What is the Dr. Q routine? Can you provide a brief description.
Message: Posted by: Scott M (Nov 14, 2009 08:06PM)
Tony B.

What a great idea.

In re-reading that in The Mental Mysteries by William Larsen, Sr. it sounds like there is some great potential...only fear would be loosing control and the kids really ham-ing it up, but then again that might be fun. Maybe with the right age there is some great routine ideas with this.

Thanks for the thought!

-Scott M
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 14, 2009 10:14PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-14 20:13, hbwolkov wrote:
TonyB2009,
What is the Dr. Q routine? Can you provide a brief description.
[/quote]
The Dr Q routine is an old effect, described in detail in Ormond McGill's Hypnotism encyclopedia, and also released as a stand-alone item.
Basically a number of people are brought up from the audience and put on chairs, and the performer announces that he is going to hypnotise them. He then goes from person to person, supposedly hypnotising them, but in reality recruiting them to play along for a bit of fun.
The volunteers then ham it up for ten or fifteen minutes of fun, getting stuck to furniture, jumping from chairs, etc.
That doesn't sound like a great routine when you write it like that, but I have tried it on a number of occasions, and the results are always great. It is something worth studying for those occasions on which you do not have the time for a proper hypnosis set. For instance I have thrown in ten minutes of it to end an hour long mentalism routine.
The best resources to read up on it are The Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism, Eddie Burke's People Sticker Routine, and Ricky Dunne's Zapped, all variations on the same idea.
Message: Posted by: James Munton (Nov 18, 2009 02:13PM)
I hypnotize the audience in every kidshow I do. I am not joking. I don't call it hypnosis, but I do a quick induction at the beginning with a hot book and give the children suggestions on how to behave that will make the show more fun.

And I have a bit in my sponge ball routine where I pretend to hypnotize the child. If it looks like the kid is actually going into trance, I have on occasion had some fun with name and number amnesia.

As for the performance of stage hypnosis shows for children, here in the States, it is quite common for
high schools to book a stage hypnotist and a friend of mine does quite a few middle schools.

Best,
James
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 19, 2009 09:51AM)
I do not have my copy of the New Encylopedia of Stage Hypnosis by McGill, but I recall a picture of him standing behind two children obviously in a stage setting with them slumped over in hypnosis, (which Mark says does not exist anyhow) so it is unclear I guess.

I think it is page 244 I am not sure.

I also think that he wrote "children make EXCELLENT hypnotic subjects" (emphasis mine) but to do so you must place the suggestions on their level.

The discouragment of it from him arises from the show not seeming as "important" and that adults may not be as willing to act out if kids are there with them. He in no way said it was anything about it being a disgrace or anything of the sort.

The world changes. What was once unheard of is now ok. It is a brave new world. You should embrace it. As I said inviting children to the stage is not something to encourage, but ignoring them in the audience is ignorant.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 10:04AM)
>>>The world changes. What was once unheard of is now ok. It is a brave new world . You should embrace it. As I said inviting children to the stage is not something to encourage, but ignoring them in the audience is ignorant.<<<


I would say with children at least here in the UK what was once ok is now unheard of. There is so much fear around even looking at a child in public that to hypnotize them would be crazy.

Political correctness has gone mad here.

The fear of being seen as a kiddie fiddler is eclipsed by the fear of being racist. My suspicion that the second issue is mass mind control and manipulation to allow the immigration of cheap labour. But that's another story..
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 12:12PM)
>>>>Second. Ormond Mc'Gill does indeed have a chapter in his book explaining how to hypnotise children. He says that an exception can be made to his reservations about the matter if the show is for children only. I do not agree with him here. I believe that are no circumstances whatsoever where children should be hypnotised for entertainment. Height of stupidity and I would have thought that was perfectly obvious.<<<

Doesn't he also describe using chloroform as a "challenge" hypnosis? And some other dubious and dangerous to knock someone unconscious? I can't remember exactly but it was to do with restricting blood to the brain or something?

They would work well with kids though...
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 12:27PM)
Try telling a kid not to jump into a puddle!
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 19, 2009 06:14PM)
Hey mindpunisher: don't jump into a puddle!

LOL! :rotf:


[You left yourself open for that. It was toooooo easy.]
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 06:27PM)
Nothing wrong with being a kid at heart just make sure you have your wellies.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 20, 2009 04:30AM)
Political correctness has gone mad. A friend of mine could double as Santa Claus. He has the beard, the twinkley eyes, the whole effect. And he loves kids. For years kids would accost him around Christmas and he would spin marvelous tales about being Santa's younger brother.

Not any more. Mothers shoo him away when kids approach him. Sad for him, sad for the kids who now miss his wonderful stories, and sad for society.

I don't want to hypnotise children. I never allow them to volunteer for my shows, no matter how enthusiastic, because apart from other concerns it will change the dynamic on the stage and affect my adult volunteers. But I would love to do a pseudo hypnosis routine for kids. What's holding me back is how the parents would react.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2009 09:39AM)
In general the problem is solved simply by the venues in which many hypnotists work. I obviously never ran into the problem in comedy clubs. But on occasion in resort work with families, or doing fund raising work for high schools and public shows you can run into the kids who will do it in the audience. This MUST be addressed, for a few reasons.

First of all simply a matter of courtesy.It would be terrible to just ignore them. The audience does not know what hypnosis really is (or is not) and we are teaching them, so to just ignore the kid seems a bit scary to them. You absolutely must deal with them in some fashion.

Secondly if you do not deal with them much of your audience will be watching them instead of whatching what is on stage. This shift in focus is not a good thing either.

So I do not encourage children to come to the stage, but certainly you must know how to deal with them when the circumstance arises.
Message: Posted by: RobertTemple (Nov 20, 2009 09:48AM)
I generally don't have the problem, because of the events and venues that I work. If there are kids in the audience, I don't take the booking. As you may know my show is "less-than-clean".

BUT, I would never put myself in a position of that much risk, particularly in this day and age.

Apart from anything, in the UK it is (technically speaking) illegal to hypnotize anyone under the age of 18 on-stage under the 1952 Stage Hypnotism Act. Someone was telling me that it is OK if they have parental consent... but I personally still wouldn't.

I agree with MP. It just seems... erm... odd that anyone would want to.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 20, 2009 09:58AM)
It won't arise Danny if you tell them upfront that on no circumstances should children volunteer to come on stage. I don't understand why you have a problem. Plus you are there to do a show not teach. If you want to teach run a course.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 21, 2009 07:36AM)
You can tell the kids that they can't volunteer. we all know that. But you still have to take into account the fact they are in the audience. You might have to modify your presentation somewhat, and include stuff that they will respond to. Why alienate a part of your audience just because they shouldn't be there. If they are there, you have to deal with it.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 21, 2009 08:22AM)
That's right they are in the audience that's where they should stay. you then do a family show. If you want to use them, use them without hypnotising them. For example have a hypnotised adult not being able to lift a fake bar bell but the youngster does it no bother. have an imaginary piece of string attached to the adults nose and then give the other end to the kid who can then lead the adult around the stage.

You can use children you don't have to hypnotise them.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 21, 2009 10:05AM)
Ok MP your comprehension skills are a bit off. Let me try typing slower.

I DO NOT INVITE THEM TO THE STAGE FOR THE INDUCTION. Are we still together?

BUT you WILL AND DO get parents in the audience who encourage THEIR OWN KIDS to try it from the audience. They follow along REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU TELL THEM.

Ok are we still all following along? Now you have a child IN TRANCE IN THE AUDIENCE OUT OF YOUR DIRECT CONTROL. See where I am going MP? You MUST address such a situation for the SAKE OF SAFTEY. If the kid slumps over and into the aisle and hits his head or whatever you have major problems.

So what I am saying is bring them for one skit, MAYBE 2 like hot cold/good smell bad smell and then dismiss them with your praise and thanks.

What would you do when they are out in the audience MP? Ignore them like Mark? That seems an incredibly daft thing to do in my view for no other reasons than being safe. You are talking about stuff you never have dealt with obviously. But once they have involved themselvs, they must be dealt with. I deal with them for 5 minutes, send them to the seats and move along.

I work in an environment where kids are there. Heck mom and dad have paid huge money to be there. It is not the environment you seem to think it is.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 21, 2009 10:34AM)
Ok I have never had that problem. And I can imagine the diplomacy needed in your market.

And also the US have different mindset and laws to the UK around hypnosis..
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 22, 2009 01:06AM)
Danny, MP doesn't do shows any more, so his comments are irrelevant.

I understand exactly what you're saying. What I've seen some hypnotists do (and I'm thinking of adding this), is after getting everyone on stage into trance, giving a very brief rah-rah speech to the audience (such as "Here they are! Please give a round of applause to the stars of the show."). At this time they do a fast count up to make sure everyone in the audience is alert and awake and ready to enjoy the show.

I haven't felt the need to do that, but I do scan the audience to make sure that nobody is in a deep trance. If they are, I either invite them on stage, emerge them, or have an assistant quietly emerge them while I continue with the show.
Message: Posted by: chem341 (Nov 22, 2009 11:16AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-18 15:13, James Munton wrote:
I hypnotize the audience in every kidshow I do. I am not joking. I don't call it hypnosis, but I do a quick induction at the beginning with a hot book and give the children suggestions on how to behave that will make the show more fun.
[/quote]

Sorry if I'm being cheeky - but could you explain a bit more about this James - sounds like a good one to me.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Nov 22, 2009 12:01PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-22 02:06, dmkraig wrote:
Danny, MP doesn't do shows any more, so his comments are irrelevant.
[/quote]

Not sure I understand your logic dmkraig. Why does retiring from something mean that your cannot give others the benefit of your experience?

Anthony
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 22, 2009 03:53PM)
Anthony, sometimes when people retire, they have valuable experience and wisdom to share. At other times, they stop doing things because their fixed and dogmatic views prevent them from moving on with the times. For example, such a person might criticize your writings and work for being "mass marketed" (you know, right next to the sweets on aisle 7) and for turning out lots of untrained and unprepared hypnotists.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 22, 2009 04:54PM)
Craig anyone that doesn't agree with you is dogmatic. Your logic is scarey sometimes if not hilarious.

I can critisize anything I am not a sheep I have an opinion. One that comes from many years experience not only performing through difficult times but also handling the media. And my opinion is shared by many privately. I just happen to voice mine publicly.

It really is a shame that you and many on here do not listen to me. You would learn something valuable. But then again I guess that many don't have the capacity.

you often ramble on about different aspects of hypnosis and NLP that clearly demonstrates you haven't grapsed the basics. Your previous post is yet another demonstration of your fruitloop logic.

It must be nice in "Craig" world.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 22, 2009 08:26PM)
No, MP. Just you.

Have all the opinions you like!!!! I would appreciate it.

But you don't present them as your opinions. You present them as facts and denounce anyone who dares to disagree with you.

You say, "it really is a shame the you and many on here do not listen to me." We do listen to you. It's just that years of training and experience reject your years of no longer being in the profession.

Perhaps it would be better if you actually listened to other people who are here. Maybe then your mind would open to other opportunities and possibilities.

And maybe then you'd learn that my name is NOT "craig."
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 23, 2009 05:08AM)
Its a fact they are my opinions craig. And they are based on facts. Show me one that isn't?

Im not sure about the opportunities and possibilities you talk about regarding my opinions. What you see as opportunities I see as a huge backward step.

Perhaps I just have different values and higher goals than you? If you want to take to the street go ahead its your life. If that floats your boat.

Yeah times move on and everything has a cause and effect....wait till we get to the effect it won't be pretty.


Cheers Craig
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 23, 2009 10:06AM)
MP wrote: " What you see as opportunities I see as a huge backward step."

Exactly. That's one of the signs of a closed mind filled with dogma.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 24, 2009 05:14AM)
Oh really?

I see so everybody that disagrees with you has a closed mind and are dogmatic? You have heard of projection is perception I presume from your corrospondence NLP course.

When it comes to you Craig my mind is under lock and key to protect it. I feel sorry for your clients. You are completely barking.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 24, 2009 05:18AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-22 21:26, dmkraig wrote:
No, MP. Just you.

Have all the opinions you like!!!! I would appreciate it.

But you don't present them as your opinions. You present them as facts and denounce anyone who dares to disagree with you.

You say, "it really is a shame the you and many on here do not listen to me." We do listen to you. It's just that years of training and experience reject your years of no longer being in the profession.

Perhaps it would be better if you actually listened to other people who are here. Maybe then your mind would open to other opportunities and possibilities.

And maybe then you'd learn that my name is NOT "craig."
[/quote]

I do listen very carefully. And that's why my opinons are formed. Unfortunately you just aren't sane enough to understand them. Hypnosis attracts some weirdos and your no exception.