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Topic: Is there any danger with hypnosis?
Message: Posted by: ScHeRzO (Oct 5, 2009 11:04AM)
Dear Friends,

I don't think that there is any danger if you do it properly, but I have heard so many stories about people going it to trance and never coming back. I was wondering if any of you have had any rare or uncommon experience with someone in trance?

Thank you
SCHERZO
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 5, 2009 12:26PM)
Done properly there are no dangers to hypnosis. Sometimes you will get a volunteer with psychological problems, or high on drugs, and you will get unusual reactions. A bit of training and you will be able to handle that. No one will get stuck in a trance. It has never happened, and will never happen. Old wives tale. Tony.
Message: Posted by: Nongard1 (Oct 5, 2009 12:59PM)
Nodbody can go into trance and stay stuck. Hypnosis is a natural state we all enter every day. In life you are either asleep or alert or somewhere in between. A person who is in trance can only do one of two things: Wake up or go to sleep.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Oct 5, 2009 01:44PM)
Yep. Tony and Richard are exactly correct. In thousands of year of working with hypnosis and its precedents, there has never been a case of someone going into trance and not emerging from it. I'd say that's a pretty good record!

That being said, there is, I think a reason for the myth. Simply put, being in a deep hypnotic trance feels wonderful! It's relaxing, focused, and just feels good. There are some instances where the hypnotists try to bring the hypnotized person out of trance and they like it so much they don't want to come out.

As Richard says, only two things will happen. Either the person will "wake up" (I prefer "emerge" or "come out" of hypnosis as the person doesn't really go to sleep) or they will fall into sleep and wake up later feeling wonderful.

During hypnotherapy, a person staying in trance for longer than the hypnotist desires is, at worst, an inconvenience. Hypnotherapists will give suggestions such as:

"Yes, this feels wonderful, but unless you come out when I count to three, I'll never lead you to this state again" or
"You're welcome to stay in this wonderful state, but remember that I change $150 per hour unless you come out now"

usually does the trick

Stage hypnotists also want to emerge their actors when they say they are doing so for a variety of reasons. My favorite suggestion to help a recalcitrant person emerge was shared in a training given by Dick "deeper and deeper" Sutphen. He said you could whisper into someone's ear on stage "Unless you come out now I'm going to start humping your leg like a dog until you do!"
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Oct 5, 2009 04:05PM)
I agree with the fact that properly done hypnosis is totally safe, but there are always chances of getting weird reactions like what just happened with Derren Brown performing an induction on TV and a person being stuck on a chair for a whole night!!

Or, for example, a few years ago there was a hypnosis demonstration at the university I teach here in Quito, and the hypnotist at that time was not too responsible at the moment of inducing the trance and leading people out of it. So, he performed hypnosis to a whole classroom and there was this lady who woke up two hours later at the very moment when she was pressing her garage remote control. So she drove all the way back home in a deep hypnosis state!!!

So we should always be careful...

Giovanni.

Posted: Oct 5, 2009 5:14pm
There is alink for the news of Derren Brown's apologies at his own blog:

http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2009/09/oops/
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Oct 5, 2009 04:32PM)
Giovanni, one person claims to have been stuck in a chair with NO documentation, NO verification, NO proof. Please! It was this guy's attempt to get a bit of fame or fortune by appearing in a tabloid that features pictures of naked women and lurid tales about celebrities. DB's apology consisted of "Oops, sorry." He realized what was going on and was using this as advertising for his "incredible powers."
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Oct 5, 2009 04:58PM)
Hi Dmkraig!

I read the news at the spanish magic blog which usually is a serious site about magic. Anyway I should research a bit more to find out if it is true or not.

Giovanni.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 5, 2009 05:27PM)
You are greatly misinformed. There is no such thing as getting stuck in hypnosis. Do not confuse this with someone having a reaction while hypnotized. I challenge anyone to find any such case of anyone getting stuck in hypnosis.

This is covered in even the most basic of hypnosis training.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 5, 2009 05:31PM)
I think you are all stuck in hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Oct 5, 2009 05:58PM)
It seems that the fact of someone getting stuck to his chair was discussed before on this forum at:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=331283&forum=22&2

Anyway I was just goggling it and there are hundreds of references on the Internet including videos.

So I think at this point it will be wise to ask our British friends that probably saw it life ore have more serious references to that particular performance, because being at another continent I can just rely on what I red on the internet and get on cable.

So British friends: How much of the news about getting stuck to the chair is true???

Thanks a lot for your answers!

Giovanni.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 5, 2009 06:51PM)
No one got stuck to a chair for twelve hours. It doesn't matter how often it was mentioned on the internet. It didn't happen.

It reminds me of what happened when I was performing in a pub once night. One of the barmen got his hands stuck at the start of the show, and they remained stuck for the duration of the show. At the end I was told of the problem and released his hands.

I didn't bother to explain to his boss that he was putting it on to get out of work for two hours, so that he could watch my show. But that is what had happened, and we both knew it.
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Oct 5, 2009 07:13PM)
That's a very funny story Tony :)
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 6, 2009 06:15AM)
At half time during a theatre performance a guy came up to me said his girlfriend was acting weird. her hands were stuck and she was in a daze and had been since show started. So I unstuck her hands and told her she was feeling great and would really have a great time enjoying the rest of the show.

At the end of the show she was jumping and cheering clapping her hands even after everybody else left.

She might still be for all I know.
Message: Posted by: ScHeRzO (Oct 6, 2009 11:37AM)
Thank you all, yes, being in trance is a natural state of mind so I was right hypnosis is totally safe when done properly, but what would it be to do it in a wrong way? Probably those stories about people staying in a hypnotic trace a completle mith.

SCHERZO

Posted: Oct 6, 2009 1:44pm
So you should be definetly a therapist or even more a psycologist to act on stage, because you will never know whats going to happen! In other words is it dangerous or irresponsable to release a book or a DVD with hypnotic inductions for gerenal public?

Scherzo
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 6, 2009 01:49PM)
Same can be said about performing mentalism! I don't see hypnosis as being any worse off as performing mentalism. If you perform within reasonable ethical and safe parameters that is A-OK.

Remember Uri Gellar, how about John Edwards? Think about that, they are doing potentially equally damaging things as a hypnotist may do. Also don't start telling me how a hypnotist can suggest potentially dangerous suggestions and have adverse effects because if you remember, John Edwards talks to the bloody dead! It comes down to ethics and performing with self administrated guidelines. This does not mean in any way that people should AVOID performing hypnosis anywhere apart from a "proper" venue. I don't see psych degrees for most therapy hypnotists yet they have a clinical hypnosis practice? I see hypnosis to be as equally dangerous as a person driving a car. If something goes awry, it's really a issue with the person on the person's level. Proper study of hypnosis should always give understanding of safety precautions but in the end, it's ultimately the hypnotist/performer who either follows that or not.

It's not dangerous to release such material to the public IF proper safety is covered in a proficient manner. If a hypnotist can suggest people to do things with adverse effect then so could a mentalist or even a magician. Same can be said about any influential public figure or public speaker.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 6, 2009 02:13PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-05 19:51, TonyB2009 wrote:
No one got stuck to a chair for twelve hours. It doesn't matter how often it was mentioned on the internet. It didn't happen.

It reminds me of what happened when I was performing in a pub once night. One of the barmen got his hands stuck at the start of the show, and they remained stuck for the duration of the show. At the end I was told of the problem and released his hands.

I didn't bother to explain to his boss that he was putting it on to get out of work for two hours, so that he could watch my show. But that is what had happened, and we both knew it.
[/quote]

You don't know that for sure. I have had people with stuck hands for the duration of 2 hours before I released them. I have had people in trance (sleepers) throughout the duration of the show. It could be that you put your perceptual spin on things because you don't believe hypnosis exists. It must be strange doing something you don't believe exists. Even when its obvious it does.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 6, 2009 04:48PM)
Hi Mindpunisher. I do know for sure no one got stuck in a chair for twelve hours. And I do know for sure the guy who had his hands stuck for the duration of my show was skivving off work.

The world is a far simpler place than we might like to believe. There is no need to look beyond the obvious for explanations. Tony.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 6, 2009 05:51PM)
Obvious explanations? So he didn't tell you he was skiving? I would've thought the obvious explanation was that his hands were stuck together. So basically your calling him a liar. Of course one explanation is you could be right on one occasion.

Deos that mean in your world everybody who's hands stick together are skiving? Or pretending just to make you look good?

>>>The world is a far simpler place than we might like to believe There is no need to look beyond the obvious for explanations. Tony<<<<

Yeah right Tony much simpler than you like to believe. Do you really think everybody pretends?
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Oct 6, 2009 05:53PM)
Kissdadookie, I respectfully disagree. You haven't shown that Geller, Edwards, or any hypnotist have damaged anyone. Instead, you mention "potential" damage. Well, having lived for more than a few years, I would state that screwed up parents have created more actual damage to their children than all the mentalists, hypnotists, magicians, and other performers and therapists multiplied ten times over.

To denounce hypnotherapists for not having psych degrees (although many do--you're just not looking in the right places) is like criticizing plumbers for not having degrees in philosophy. Hypnotherapy is NOT psychotherapy, although they can work together. Clinical hypnotherapy is NOT clinical psychology. There is no reason for a hypnotherapist to have a degree in psych unless he or she is going to be a psychologist. For a person to be a hypnotherapist, however, means they should have thorough training in hypnotherapy--far more than a "weekend wonder" training.

Finally, you can release all of the safety material you want. It's irrelevant if someone isn't going to study it or pay attention to it. I agree that safety should be considered as vital in books, DVD, and in-person trainings. However saying that including such material covers the teacher/writer's butt may be legally true, but is ethically questionable. Here in the U.S. they often show ads with someone who took a pill and lost 100 pounds in a couple of months. In tiny print it will say "results not typical" to legally cover their butts. Ethically, it's still a scam.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 6, 2009 07:01PM)
Dmkraig, you've understood me in the opposite direction. LoL. The reason I've mention Gellar and Edwards is because there WAS NOT ADVERSE EFFECT! Ha ha ha.

Why don't you fully read what I posted instead of skimming through it? Because you've obviously got the entirely wrong idea of what I was saying.

All I've been trying to point out is that ethics is ultimately up to the person which in this case is the hypnotist. Pure and simple. Christ, I am quite annoyed at how I am very thorough with my posts yet people only SKIM through what is actually written instead of actually bothering to read and comprehend the whole darn thing.

Bottom line, my message is as follows: DO NOT SHY AWAY FROM PERFORMING HYPNOSIS UNLESS YOU YOURSELF HAVE DOUBTS OF YOUR OWN PROFICIENCIES AND ABILITY TO PROVIDE A SAFE EXPERIENCE.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 6, 2009 07:08PM)
Hi Mindpunisher. I do believe hypnosis is a mix of pretense and social compliance. But you know that. We have been down that road before, and no one convinced anyone. So lets not revisit it.
The original question was could someone get stuck in a trance. No matter what your beliefs about hypnosis, we all know that this cannot happen. At least on that we have agreement. Tony.
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Oct 6, 2009 08:34PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-06 17:48, TonyB2009 wrote:
Hi Mindpunisher. I do know for sure no one got stuck in a chair for twelve hours. And I do know for sure the guy who had his hands stuck for the duration of my show was skivving off work.

The world is a far simpler place than we might like to believe. There is no need to look beyond the obvious for explanations. Tony.
[/quote]

Believing in nothing is as stupid as believing in everything

who wrote this quote ??

clearly not you Tonyb2009
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Oct 7, 2009 12:27AM)
Well, then, Kiss, in the words of Emily Litella, "Oh. That's different. Never mind."
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 7, 2009 07:08AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-06 21:34, PsiDroid wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-06 17:48, TonyB2009 wrote:
The world is a far simpler place than we might like to believe. There is no need to look beyond the obvious for explanations. Tony.
[/quote]

Believing in nothing is as stupid as believing in everything

who wrote this quote ??

clearly not you Tonyb2009
[/quote]

Hi PsiDroid. Unfortunately all that comes from me - not from any profound mind. But I have found it to be so.

As a child I was fascinated by tales of fakirs in India and Nepal doing wonderful things. Gradually I managed to do many of those things - walk on hot coals, chew lightbulbs, drive skewers through my arms. And I learnt that all these things are achieved by completely natural means. Walking on coals was a particular revelation. It did not involve any mental state, any beliefs. The physics of heat transfer from charcoal make it possible.

I spent thirty years meditating (still do it) and experienced many profound states of mind, but again completely natural, and no great spiritual revelations.

Two years ago I got the chance to visit Nepal. Walking off the plane I caught my first real glimpse of the wonderful fakirs, and I saw them for what they were - colourful street beggers. It was a disappointment, but not a surprise.

The world is a wonderful place, but in the end it is quite a simple place. As a mathematician I was trained that the most simple solution is probably the right solution. It has rarely let me down. Tony.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 7, 2009 08:03AM)
Ha ha Dmkraig. :)
Message: Posted by: ScHeRzO (Oct 7, 2009 11:07AM)
Great Tony. Much to learn from you I have.!

Scherzo
Message: Posted by: Andy3142 (Oct 11, 2009 04:47PM)
I agree, it's totally not possible to get stuck in hypnosis any more than in meditation. But there's a thing which can happen in therapeutic hypnosis when a person makes some deep emotional connection during the session. This is that when they get home they feel an overwhelming need to sleep, can't keep their eyes open, and have to go to bed and sleep. I don't know why this happens but it does, occasionally. This could perhaps account for urban myths of people getting stuck.
Regards

Andy
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 11, 2009 06:17PM)
Interesting Andy. I remember whilst learning The Silva Method that everytime some student said 'I'm feeling sleepy' or I'm getting a mild headache' or 'I feel a buzz going right through me' or 'my stomach is feeling queesy' or 'Man I just wanted to stay in there' or I couldn't sleep last night' or 'it seemed so real' or it didn't seem real' or.... okay you get the picture by now (LOL).
Invariably I noticed the stock answer to all of these was: "That's ok, we have found in our courses that many of our students have said exactly that over many years. So don't worry, it just means it's working and it's perfectly natural."
By the way I did actually enjoy Silva's course and felt I took a lot out of it.

bobser
Message: Posted by: Daniel Nicholls (Oct 11, 2009 09:52PM)
The main danger with hypnosis is not looking after your specs correctly. Make sure the area your performing in is safe and that any instructions you give are thought out properly. Remember that these people are at your mercy and as such you should treat them as if they were blind.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 12, 2009 03:06AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-07 08:08, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-06 21:34, PsiDroid wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-06 17:48, TonyB2009 wrote:
The world is a far simpler place than we might like to believe . There is no need to look beyond the obvious for explanations. Tony.
[/quote]

Believing in nothing is as stupid as believing in everything

who wrote this quote ??

clearly not you Tonyb2009
[/quote]

The world is a wonderful place, but in the end it is quite a simple place. As a mathematician I was trained that the most simple solution is probably the right solution. It has rarely let me down. Tony.
[/quote]

Your not talking about solutions you are talking about beliefs YOUR beliefs. People do get their hands stuck together. People do have amnesia, people do things they have no control over whilst on stage. These things happen off stage too. To reference mathmatics on a hypnosis forum is like putting snow in your underpants to keep warm.

its no wonder you have such a weird view of everything.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 12, 2009 12:31PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-12 04:06, mindpunisher wrote:
To reference mathmatics on a hypnosis forum is like putting snow in your underpants to keep warm.

its no wonder you have such a weird view of everything.
[/quote]

Just for your information snow is a wonderful insulator. Which is why the Inuit use it to make igloos. Tony.

PS: Andy 3412, that's an interesting point. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Oct 12, 2009 02:00PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-12 13:31, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-12 04:06, mindpunisher wrote:
To reference mathmatics on a hypnosis forum is like putting snow in your underpants to keep warm.

its no wonder you have such a weird view of everything.
[/quote]

Just for your information snow is a wonderful insulator. Which is why the Inuit use it to make igloos. Tony.

[/quote]

This is true but not the same thing. are you playing dumb ??

then try to put snow or ice in your crotch as mindpunisher suggested and then you'll see how warm you'll feel
Message: Posted by: bobser (Oct 12, 2009 02:36PM)
Dear PsiDroid,
As you know, I've never minced words with you and I've always considered you to be a complete twit. And that's not because I'm incredibly wise (albeit I am) but rather because it's so obvious that you are a PROPER WOLLOPER!
If you're going to use analogy, take a moment, think, then pm either myself, Tony or MP and we'll show you how to write your thoughts in a way where you won't look like a total and complete eejit.
Now please re-enter your saferoom and continue playing with your tajer.

bobser
(look upon me as the mentor you haven't appreciated ... yet)
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 12, 2009 05:36PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-12 13:31, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-12 04:06, mindpunisher wrote:
To reference mathmatics on a hypnosis forum is like putting snow in your underpants to keep warm.

its no wonder you have such a weird view of everything.
[/quote]

I

Just for your information snow is a wonderful insulator. Which is why the Inuit use it to make igloos. Tony.

PS: Andy 3412, that's an interesting point. Thanks.
[/quote]

They build it around themselves not inside their pants... That sums up how you think about and use hypnosis. You apply the same logic.

Did anyone ever check your formulas? You did pass the maths exam?

This is what happens when you get too clever and try to add and multiply letters as well as numbers.
Message: Posted by: John Tudor (Oct 13, 2009 09:53AM)
What about danger with hypnotists?

There's a guy in my town - a hypnotist who has a clinical practice (not sure how he's licensed) who loves to show up ay events and parties, even bars, and do spontaneous hypnosis sessions with intoxicated women.
Many who know him are extremely creeped out by him, afterwards felt uneasy/violated, convinced that he is a kind of predator. I don't know if anything beyond these inappropriate scenes has occured.
I don't now much about him, except that he's a defrocked minister, fired from two churches for reasons unknown.
I thought it was just unethical - but recently I discovered several women who want to "take him down" - that is catch him in this and publicly expose him - oblige him to leave town. I had to ask "catch him in what?" They are very concerened about him but not sure to the extent he's crossed the line.

I know this all in very broad strokes, but what are your thoughts, guys?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 13, 2009 10:17AM)
Sounds like your average hypnotist to me...
Message: Posted by: Hostile18 (Oct 13, 2009 12:29PM)
I agree that hypnosis is safe "if performed properly". But then fire-eating, walking on broken glass, high-flying trapeze acts and shooting things with guns are all safe "if performed properly". It's a pretty broad caveat.

Hypnosis in and of itself is not dangerous, but an incompetent or malicious person can be dangerous with or without hypnosis. Hypnosis is a powerful tool and almost all tools can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Perhaps that's too obvious to be worth stating, but it worries me how little caution some people employ.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Oct 13, 2009 01:20PM)
I once had a friend who went to the circus. She immediately set herself up giving clown shows and teaching other people to be clowns. Later, I learned of horrendous errors she made in everything from colors to use in make up to how to present skits. The only thing the people who hired her as a clown lost was a good entertainer. People who took her classes lost their money and eventually interest. A few went on to real clown schools.

I have disagreed with MP's claim that the problem with lots of people teaching hypnosis is simply that they're teaching it. I still disagree. However, there are people without much formal training who are "teaching" how to do hypnosis on You Tube, on DVDs, etc. Personally, I LIKE what they teach as they show bad examples of teaching and good examples of what to avoid. Most people who try their stuff are going to fail and become disappointed, abandoning their study of hypnosis (which probably wasn't too strong in the first place). Basically, a few people will lose some relatively small amounts of money. No major harm and the suckers should take it as a lesson in life.

On the other hands, some people getting that bad training will be able to hypnotize, and without adequate training--including how to avoid problems--they could have problematic results. As Hostile18 points out, this is nothing specific to hypnosis. More bad parents are screwing up their kids today than all the bad hypnotists in history and the future will ever do. It wasn't a hypnotist who created Eddie Gein!

As many people have stated, the primary cause of injury with stage hypnosis is someone bumping into something or falling off the stage. It's not trance that is the problem, it's idiot hypnotists. If you just PAY ATTENTION to what's going on, stage shows are not going to harm anyone. Unfortunately, although you can make something virtually idiot proof, you can't make it *** idiot proof. And it is the *** idiots who will get into the papers...and not in a good way.

There are idiot doctor, plumbers, lawyers, and hypnotists. All will get into trouble by screwing people up. The problem, however, is not medicine, plumbing, law, or hypnosis, it's idiots. They would find a way to screw people up no matter what.

Perhaps the ultimate idiot, IMO, was a guy named Robert Strange McNamara. When he led Ford Motors, he was responsible for the Edsel, one of their worst failures. When he led the U.S. military, he created the policy known as MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction, a policy that has wasted trillions of dollars that could have been spent elsewhere. His policies during the Viet Nam war were disastrous. From there he went on to head the World Bank, resulting in worldwide economic meltdowns. He was an idiot responsible for ruining economies and destroying tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of thousands of families. And he never hypnotized one person.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Hypnosis isn't dangerous. Idiots are dangerous. It doesn't matter what they do, they're still dangerous, so idiots doing hypnosis are dangerous--not because of the hypnosis, but because they're idiots. Gas ovens usually aren't dangerous. Blow out the pilot light and stick your head in the oven and you'll find it dangerous.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 13, 2009 06:13PM)
Well making guns to easy to get hold of does kill people. Because the easier it is the more idiots that get hold of it and that applies to hypnosis. If all of a sudden we could pass ourself off as plumbers or doctors without adequate training we would kill a lot more people.

Hyonosis doesn't kill people but selling it to anyone with a few bucks , encouraging them to perform in streets after reading a book or watching a few DVDS IS dangerous. You wouldn't see plumbers or doctors in the main stream after reading a book or DVD. Therefore its a useless comparison.

And then theres the thing where someone might be traumatized for life after thinking he/she is a chicken in public.

I love chicken I think it deserves more respect than that.

[quote]
On 2009-10-07 08:08, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-06 21:34, PsiDroid wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-06 17:48, TonyB2009 wrote:
The world is a far simpler place than we might like to believe. There is no need to look beyond the obvious for explanations. Tony.
[/quote]

This is the sad thing Tony,


Believing in nothing is as stupid as believing in everything

who wrote this quote ??

clearly not you Tonyb2009
[/quote]

Hi PsiDroid. Unfortunately all that comes from me - not from any profound mind. But I have found it to be so.

As a child I was fascinated by tales of fakirs in India and Nepal doing wonderful things. Gradually I managed to do many of those things - walk on hot coals, chew lightbulbs, drive skewers through my arms. And I learnt that all these things are achieved by completely natural means. Walking on coals was a particular revelation. It did not involve any mental state, any beliefs. The physics of heat transfer from charcoal make it possible.

I spent thirty years meditating (still do it) and experienced many profound states of mind, but again completely natural, and no great spiritual revelations.

Two years ago I got the chance to visit Nepal. Walking off the plane I caught my first real glimpse of the wonderful fakirs, and I saw them for what they were - colourful street beggers. It was a disappointment, but not a surprise.

The world is a wonderful place, but in the end it is quite a simple place. As a mathematician I was trained that the most simple solution is probably the right solution. It has rarely let me down. Tony.
[/quote]

You know the sad thing Tony is is that the "obvious" is that all the above things do indeed exist. THEY ARE ALL NATURAL. It's no wonder you cannot see what is in front of your eyes and inside you.

Its not that the word is a simple place. I'ts that your world is a simple place because you shut yourself off from the reality that's taking place.

You say you are a hypnotist. Yet you don't recognize that people do get their hands stuck together. They do experience amnesia and by and large they do lose control of their actions...

But its your expectation of some supernatural occurance that doesn't happen - that blinds you to the reality before.

all social compliance its nothing special really its just hypnosis.

For someone who has been mediatating for so long I think its sad you haven't had any "spiritual" revalations. Your life must be a world of no colour.
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Oct 13, 2009 06:34PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-13 19:26, mindpunisher wrote:


You know the sad thing Tony is is that the "obvious" is that all the above things do indeed exist. THEY ARE ALL NATURAL. It's no wonder you cannot see what is in front of your eyes and inside you.

Its not that the word is a simple place. I'ts that your world is a simple place because you shut yourself off from the reality that's taking place.

You say you are a hypnotist. Yet you don't recognize that people do get their hands stuck together. They do experience amnesia and by and large they do lose control of their actions...

But its your expectation of some supernatural occurance that doesn't happen - that blinds you to the reality before.

all social compliance its nothing special really its just hypnosis.

For someone who has been mediatating for so long I think its sad you haven't had any "spiritual" revelations.

Your life must be a world of no colour.
[/quote]

or a world of just one color: brown
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 13, 2009 07:10PM)
Guys, I am really touched that you are so concerned for me. But let me assure you that a simple world can be a very beautiful, wonderful, colourful place. And I have no hang-ups or belief systems to come between me and the world. I can just enjoy it for what it is. And I do. I relish every minute of it, and every experience it throws up. Its not brown. Its not grey. Its a rainbow.

On a more serious note, John Tudor's post might need a bit of a look. I would share your concerns, John, but the way you expressed them clearly identifies one individual, making your post shakey in terms of defamation law. All the best, Tony.
Message: Posted by: doormouse (Oct 13, 2009 08:44PM)
Accusations like that are dangerous. Guess you can claim a typo error :)
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2009 07:05AM)
>>>And I have no hang-ups or belief systems to come between me and the world. I can just enjoy it for what it is. And I do. I relish every minute of it, and every experience it throws up. Its not brown. Its not grey. Its a rainbow.<<<

that's interesting belief system you have Tony. The man whos belief system believes he has no beliefs or hang-ups. (get his wife on here lets find out who the real Tony is)I don't believe that for minute. And believe me I like believing. Because I believe we should choose our beliefs carefully.

I think there's a difference between believing and denial.

THE WORLD IS WHAT IT IS BECAUSE OF WHAT WE BELIEVE. Would you believe?
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Oct 14, 2009 07:58AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 08:05, mindpunisher wrote:
>>>And I have no hang-ups or belief systems to come between me and the world. I can just enjoy it for what it is. And I do. I relish every minute of it, and every experience it throws up. Its not brown. Its not grey. Its a rainbow.<<<

that's interesting belief system you have Tony. The man whos belief system believes he has no beliefs or hang-ups.
[/quote]

lol

rather impossible indeed: problem is that his belief system is looping on itself causing tony to think he has NO belief system which come between him and the world

would be funny if was not possibly problematic for him: since we know that no one can perceive reality without any kind of filter

wait !! maybe tony is not human then. maybe hes an alien coming from a distant planet in another galaxy: only then I would believe he has no beliefs
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 14, 2009 08:23AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 08:58, PsiDroid wrote:
would be funny if was not possibly problematic for him: since we know that no one can perceive reality without any kind of filter
[/quote]
Do we really know this, or do you just believe it? Can a dog perceive reality, or are you suggesting a dog has belief systems?
Things are simple really. If something has been proved, I accept it. If something remains unproved because all the evidence has not been analysed or is not in yet, I retain an open mind. If something has no evidence to back it up, I reject it. My view of the world is determined by evidence, not my beliefs (which, in most cases are not our own beliefs, but the beliefs foisted upon us by our parents and the society we grew up in.) Tony.
Message: Posted by: John Tudor (Oct 14, 2009 09:08AM)
OK, thanks anyway, guys.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Oct 14, 2009 09:58AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-13 19:13, mindpunisher wrote:

And then theres the thing where someone might be traumatized for life after thinking he/she is a chicken in public.

I love chicken I think it deserves more respect than that.
[/quote]

You're awfully concerned with this even thought there's no proof that this happens. Did you have a lot of problems with this when you actually did shows?
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Oct 14, 2009 10:18AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 09:23, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 08:58, PsiDroid wrote:
would be funny if was not possibly problematic for him: since we know that no one can perceive reality without any kind of filter
[/quote]
Do we really know this, or do you just believe it? Can a dog perceive reality, or are you suggesting a dog has belief systems?
[/quote]

gotcha tony !!

does not matter if is MY belief or if is YOUR belief which is right. you just expressed a chain of things that lead you to believe in something or not: so that was my point Mr. "I have no beliefs between me and the outside world"

[quote]
On 2009-10-14 09:23, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 08:58, PsiDroid wrote:
would be funny if was not possibly problematic for him: since we know that no one can perceive reality without any kind of filter
[/quote]
Do we really know this, or do you just believe it? Can a dog perceive reality, or are you suggesting a dog has belief systems?
[/quote]

gotcha tony !!

does not matter if is MY belief or if is YOUR belief which is right. you just expressed a chain of things that lead you to believe in something or not: so that was my point Mr. "I have no beliefs between me and the outside world"
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2009 10:32AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 10:08, John Tudor wrote:
OK, thanks anyway, guys.
[/quote]

To answer your question amongst the usual off tangent growth of these threads:

yes this guy sounds like a creep. I assume part of your question is can he use hypnosis to abuse someone? Yes he can without doubt. Is he dangerous? He could be that's got nothing to do with hypnosis he could just as easily use a gun.

As for the legal side? I don't know I guess it could fall under assalt of some kind.
But I am no legal expert.

[quote]
On 2009-10-14 11:18, PsiDroid wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 09:23, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-10-14 08:58, PsiDroid wrote:
would be funny if was not possibly problematic for him: since we know that no one can perceive reality without any kind of filter
[/quote]
Do we really know this, or do you just believe it? Can a dog perceive reality, or are you suggesting a dog has belief systems?
[/quote]

gotcha tony !!

does nt matter if is MY belief or if is YOUR belief which is right. you just expressed a chain of things that lead you to believe in something or not: so that was my point Mr. "I have no beliefs between me and the outside world"
[/quote]

We all k now Tony has been got loads of times but he doesn't believe in those things like being caught its much more simple than that hes mad as a lepracorn... (canny speel it)
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 14, 2009 10:41AM)
Guys, I don't understand quite how I've been 'got' here. But perhaps I'm thick. It's been suggested before.
But on a more serious issue, John, the guy you are talking about is probably abusing his skills as a hypnotist. Anything can be abused. He will only be brought to book if one of his victims makes a complaint. Then he can be done for either assault or harrassment.
You, on the other hand, can be done for libel if you do not amend your original post. It is unlikely that he reads these threads, but if he ever does he has a strong case against you now. that's advice from a former journalist with extensive training in the libel laws. Tony.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2009 10:49AM)
What needs amended specifically? The reference to being thrown out of two churches or what? A defrocked minister? Apart from that it could be anyone.
Message: Posted by: John Tudor (Oct 14, 2009 12:08PM)
The person who told me he'd ben thrown out of 2 churches checked some recoreds and the "thrown out" part was exaggerated, he seems to have left where he was under some mutual agreement, at least in one case.
So consider it amended.
Message: Posted by: ScHeRzO (Oct 14, 2009 06:38PM)
Dear friends thank you for being so helpfull with your opinios. Its a pleasure to share with you at the café.

Greetings
Scherzo
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Oct 14, 2009 06:40PM)
Guys, in legal terms the truth is NOT a defence against defamation. And you have already rowed back from the statement that he was thrown out of two churches.

Knowing that he is a defrocked minister with an interest in hypnosis and knowing your home town it would only take a matter of minutes for me to get his name. That makes your statement defamatory, and unless you have a good lawyer or you are absolutely certain he will never discover this thread (he has an interest in hypnosis so I would not take that risk) you need to seriously ammend your original post.

Maybe you have deep pockets and all this does not matter to you. But please remember Americans are the second most likely people to sue (behind us Irish). All the best, Tony.
Message: Posted by: doormouse (Oct 14, 2009 09:57PM)
It is a shame that someone would attack someone else on rumors. There is no proof to any of these allegations. Only what John has heard (not witnessed). Why ruin someone John when you do not know?
Message: Posted by: John Tudor (Oct 15, 2009 07:38AM)
Thanks Tony. I'm done here.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Nov 16, 2009 07:53AM)
Hello everybody,

I thought this thread is the best for posting my concern.

There are so many people out there who make it hard for anyone to learn correctly. hard to decide what is wrong and right about hypnosis.
people who make it hard to learn about it.

which angle is correct?



there are enemies of hypnosis who think hypnosis is too dangerous for someone who did'nt have studied about psychology!

it causes pychosis!!!

leaves subjects with headache and bad dreams.

it changes them. After hypnosis gigs people were different

They tell you that hypnosis is a weapon. even in this thread here

They say hypnosis is a deep intrusion in someones personality.

Hypnotists playing with fire.

There are people who believe hypnotizing is a serious crime to human beeing.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I want to be responsible for my action.
I am getting confused why there is so much negative thinking about it
when so much other people try to teach positive about it.

I neither interessted in therapy nor then doing age regression.
I want the best for my subjects. no therapy, no bad feelings, I try to not support allergies by suggestions, I am into deep thoughts about safty. I try to avoid physical risk.

Making them think positive and take away there fears about hypnosis.

There are trainers who say that "empty hypnosis" is'nt harmful at all.
(Leerhypnose = german - like doing a concentration exercise with someone. then doing a induction and giving positive feelings followed by a wake up progress.)
What can go wrong with this one? psychosis? a late nightmare for somebody?
whats wrong about a cataleptic arm?

I believe that hypnosis is a normal daily experienced state of mind.
I am excited about hypnosis and try to stand on the opposite positive site.

_______________________________________________________

Just a list of different opinions.

Can someone please clarify for me and everybody who met such hypnosis
enemies. What to really believe?

Everybody is arguing about properness but less are helping others to avoid mistakes.
Some may suggest that not learning hypnosis would avoid mistakes.
this is not my way of learning.

Where is a "effort to avoid mistakes with hypnosis" Thread?

Can please someone tell me something about psychosis and it's REAL danger.
Why you guys are hypnotizing if every second or third spectator could have a traumatically past, a deep sitting psychosis or at least be neurotic?
That's how hypnosis enemies are talking about. what and how to answer?

I do not want to harm people by my goodwill of making themself feel good.
(for example)

sorry for my groggy english!

all the best,
art
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 16, 2009 08:39AM)
You will not get a complete clarification on this forum The reason being the majority earn a living doing stage hypnosis so their views are biast. They will tell you it is completely safe when in fact it isn't. Some will tell you to read half a book then go do a show. Some will tell you to buy DVDS. Some will tell you to do training.

My personal view is if you are seriously interested in hypnosis get training full stop. While I do not think it is as dangerous as some suggestions from the psychologists and health professionals who also have their agendas for making those claims - hypnosis is not totally free from danger either.

You will find that most on here claim it totally harmless. It is somewhere in between. But that shouldn't deter you from learning. Just learn sensibly and do not take hypnosis lightly.


If you have respect for your volunteers or clients then get good training.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 16, 2009 01:13PM)
Nothing in the hands of man is totally harmless. Nothing. Seriously.

Now as for what the actual dangers are that is another story. I think th lagest danger by far is someone falling and hurting themself in one way or another. Even from just walking up the stairs unattended.

I have seen many hpnotists who could seem to care less about people getting to the stage. Non perminant staging, strange stairs and such. Heck once I saw a persons leg of the chair they were using go through a partition of 2 joined stage sections, joined wrong.

So is "hypnosis" dangerous? Well that probably can be debated. Certainly a clever hypnotist knows how to avoid 99% of those dangers. BUT the environment can be quite dangerous.

Oh my new favorite is those who somehow think it is dramatic to just let people flop to the stage or drop them right on the stage. Any time they leave the chair to fall on the stage is just bad in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 16, 2009 01:43PM)
I think part of the problem in answering this valid question is because people tend to group a bunch of things together as "hypnosis." For example, people ask, "Will hypnosis help me stop smoking or lose weight?" Many people will answer in the affirmative, but the real answer is no.

Hypnosis, and the induction of hypnosis, have never, in thousands of years of experience, harmed anyone. Period. Full stop. Further, hypnosis and at least one induction of hypnosis can be taught in an hour or less.

The important thing--and what makes a good hypnotherapist or good performer--is what you do AFTER a person is hypnotized. Although you cannot physically harm a person with hypnosis (at least there's no record of such a thing), it is possible to put a person is a position where he or she can be harmed physically or mentally.

Frankly, this is greatly overstated. People fall down and hurt themselves thousands of times a day. How often does it happen while a person is a participant of a stage show? Rarely. Teachers and parents and religious authorities smash the wills and beliefs of children and adults regularly. How often do hypnotherapists cause any sort of harm to their clients? Rarely.

So is harming someone something to be aware of? Yes. Is it something to have a concern for? Yes. Is it something to study and be trained in to avoid or know how to quickly overcome it? I believe so.

But is it something to be paranoid about? I do not believe so. Prepare, yes. Be afraid, no.

And I agree with MP (gasp!). Get a good training. In fact, take many trainings.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 16, 2009 02:16PM)
>>>And I agree with MP (gasp!). Get a good training. In fact, take many trainings.<<<

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In your case once a year.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 16, 2009 02:43PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 14:43, dmkraig wrote:
Frankly, this is greatly overstated. People fall down and hurt themselves thousands of times a day. How often does it happen while a person is a participant of a stage show? Rarely. Teachers and parents and religious authorities smash the wills and beliefs of children and adults regularly. How often do hypnotherapists cause any sort of harm to their clients? Rarely.
[/quote]

I don't know how much stage work you do or in what country, but I have to tell you that in the US if someone falls while they are helping with your show get ready for a crapstorm to decend upon you.

While there is little chance of a hypnotherapist harming the client physically, (and this forum is really not dedicated to therapy anyhow) you get 20 people acting and interacting in a show and things can and do happen. The more you work the greater the odds it will happen.

I do not think paranioa is warranted, but to simply say it is rare or whatever is not the way to go either.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 16, 2009 05:21PM)
Stage hypnosis is a lot safer than those who offer "training" would have you believe. The main dangers are physical - people falling, injuring each other, etc. Psychological dangers are vastly exaggerated. Sure, someone could suffer a psychotic episode of some sort - but only if they were on the verge of that before they came up. And you should be able to spot it. That could happen during any performance involving a volunteer.
Mark Chapman assasinated John Lennon after becoming obsessed with an actress, Jodie Foster. Do we ban acting? Do we speak of the dangers of acting? Of course not. He was a nut.
There is no harm in doing hypnotherapy training - but it won't do a great deal for your stage show. Any more than studying the psychology of social dominance will help you as a stand-up comedian.
The best way to keep stage hypnosis safe is to eliminate the trouble-makers at the selection stage, and treat all your volunteers with respect.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 16, 2009 06:16PM)
>>>Someone could suffer from a psychotic episode but only if they were on the verge of that before they came up. And you should be able to spot it. That could happen during any performance involving a volunteer.<<<

And you should be able to spot it with half a book under your belt?

There are also physical dangers that come out of bad suggestions that even top pros make. Hypnosis is not acting nothing like it. Your volunteers are not fully in control of their faculties and will respond to suggestions literally that can put them in Danger.

One top hypnotist was sued for 90k due to a suggestion that went wrong and resulted in the volunteer walking straight of a stage with a four foot drop. She broke her hip.Another hypnotist I knew of was waiting for his court case when a volunteer stood on a table and dived off thinking he was the world's greatest swimmer. He sustained a very serious neck injury. Hypnosis is real volunteers do respond to suggestions even ones that put them in danger.

But the biggest danger is the belief that it is totally safe and encouraging newbies to show no respect for both the art and the public and jump in with little regard for anyone but themselves...

Rant over... I will now turn the asylum back over to the lunatics....
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 16, 2009 09:18PM)
By not agreeing with us you have proven our point. The dangers you outlined, BOTH of the examples you chose to put forth are PHYSICAL dangers!

Yes bad suggestions led to them but they are physical dangers indeed. Thank you for agreeing.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 17, 2009 02:05AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 15:16, mindpunisher wrote:
>>>And I agree with MP (gasp!). Get a good training. In fact, take many trainings.<<<

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In your case once a year.
[/quote]

How could a broken clock only be right once a year? Your attempted insults are as senseless as most of your posts.

[quote]
On 2009-11-16 15:43, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 14:43, dmkraig wrote:
Frankly, this is greatly overstated. People fall down and hurt themselves thousands of times a day. How often does it happen while a person is a participant of a stage show? Rarely. Teachers and parents and religious authorities smash the wills and beliefs of children and adults regularly. How often do hypnotherapists cause any sort of harm to their clients? Rarely.
[/quote]

I don't know how much stage work you do or in what country, but I have to tell you that in the US if someone falls while they are helping with your show get ready for a crapstorm to decend upon you.

While there is little chance of a hypnotherapist harming the client physically, (and this forum is really not dedicated to therapy anyhow) you get 20 people acting and interacting in a show and things can and do happen. The more you work the greater the odds it will happen.

I do not think paranioa is warranted, but to simply say it is rare or whatever is not the way to go either.
[/quote]

Okay, if it's not rare, why aren't there media REVELATIONS about how many dozens of people are being harmed in stage shows? Danny, it is rare. That doesn't mean you should ignore the potential of it happening. The reason that it does happen rarely is because professional hypnotists are aware of the potential and are alert to prevent it.

How many shows have you given in the last five years?
How many times has this happened to you?

Posted: Nov 17, 2009 3:14am
Tony and MP: where is the evidence of hundreds of people having psychotic breaks during stage hypnosis shows?

How about just dozens of people having such breaks? After all, there are thousands of shows performed each year, so if this is a problem, shouldn't there be a union of stage show hypnosis victims (the USSHV) by now?

There's just no evidence that this is a major or even a minor problem.

MP mentioned one case of someone falling off a stage. IMO one such person is one too many. However that's what, a problem that occurs in perhaps 0.01% of all hypnosis shows?

Performers need to be alert to such problems, but they are the exception, not the rule.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 17, 2009 05:22AM)
Craig I can't believe that no one on here has come close to injuring someone. Especially in the earlier days of their career. I can't believe that no one recognises the dangers associated with careless suggestions and lack of knowledge and experience. And actually Craig I mentioned two both were top performers with many many years experience.

Over here there was an organisation which probably does still exist that looked after victims of stage hypnosis. It was run by a prominent member of the dental hypnosis association in the UK. They had dozens of people on their books. The association was run by doctors and psychiatrists who were anti stage work.

Agree with them or not there were a flood of documentaries over here in the UK during the busy years with many claims and cases.

To say hypnosis has no dangers is about as useful as the withdrawal method for contraception.

Performers may need to be aware but Newbies need to be trained.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 17, 2009 10:47AM)
Craig, I have done ever 1,000 shows in the past 5 years, and the fact that I take extaordinary care not to have things happen does not mean they do not happen.

Man here this is going to hurt, BUT I agree with MP. More experienced guys need to take care, newbies need to be trained.

Early in my career I had some close calls. All physical in nature. Only made the mistakes once each.

I agree it is rare. Ignoring it will make it less so. Training the newbies not to do stupid stuff will make it almost non existant I agree. BUT improper training will cause an escelation.

How many people are almost killed every year doing a suspended strait jacket escape? It happens. Why? Mostly because they are not educated properly about how to do it properly. Same here. I am not saying it is an epidemic, I am not saying it happens that often, I am not saying anything of the sort. I am saying it can happen and it is the FAR more dangerous part of hypnosis compared to the psychotic break stuff.

The psychotic break stuff I am not even going to comment on. I have not had it happen nor seen it happen nor no anyone it happened to.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 17, 2009 10:55AM)
MP: so let's look at your post.
1) you can't believe that no one here has "come close to injuring someone," but provide NO evidence to support the claim that anyone has done so.

2) You show that some pros with "many many years experience" each have had 1 problem. If we assume that in the last 5 years they've each done a minimum of 100 shows a year, the percentage of such problems is 0.2%. To me--and to any statistician--that's rare.

3) I note that you don't give us an estimate of how many shows you've done along with the number of times someone has been injured during your shows. Are you saying that injury during your shows was common?

4) Of COURSE it was some anti-Stage hypnosis people--none of whom were professional stage hypnotists--who just happened to discover alleged "victims" of stage hypnosis. I imagine in their spare time they're finding dozens of victims of ritual Satanic abuse, too. Where is the data? Where is the proof that these "victims" are suffering? Where is the evidence that most of these people didn't have problems long before being part of a show?

I have seen not ONE drop of evidence that hypnosis has any dangers. Period. Full stop.

I have seen evidence that in rare instances, hypnotists who aren't paying attention can be at fault in allowing an injury to happen during a show. This is rare and is miniscule in comparison to the number of people who are injured in the building trades industry.

I have seen ANECDOTAL (i.e., not scientific proof) that while hypnotized, a hypnotist could give a person a suggestion that might cause a negative psychological response. I have seen NO evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this is a problem that is lasting for the person. Perhaps you could point to some record where hundreds...okay, dozens...okay, a few people have lasting problems as the SOLE result of being in a stage hypnosis show. Further, such data should indicate how this is different than the impressions of parents, teachers, doctors, ministers, etc. have placed on people without hypnosis but which have have long-term negative repercussions.

Performers, IMO, need to be aware of potential problems so they can prevent them from taking place. Performers, IMO, need to maintain alertness during performances so they can put that awareness into practice.
In most cases, IMO, this means if a person wants to be a professional, he or she should get in-person training.

Hypnosis has no dangers. What people do AFTER someone has been hypnotized has some dangers that are rare and can be avoided through training, awareness, and alertness.

Claiming that there are horrendous problems is like waving your arms shouting, "Danger Will Robinson!" It's undocumented, illogical, and way overstated.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 17, 2009 12:35PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-17 03:14, dmkraig wrote:
Tony and MP: where is the evidence of hundreds of people having psychotic breaks during stage hypnosis shows?[/quote]
I didn't say that hundreds of people had psychotic breaks during stage shows. I said it COULD happen. In fact, that was the subject of at least one court case in Britain in the past decade - though the case was thrown out. Personally, in hundreds of shows, I have never seen an adverse psychological reaction, and I don't expect to.

Mindpunisher, you asked could I spot someone with psychological problems with half a book of training under my belt. Ignoring the fact that I have vastly more training than that (half a book was sufficient for my first show; I've studied since) I could spot a nut case with half a bottle of whiskey on board. Most of us could.

If you keep the wackos off your stage and treat your volunteers with respect you can reduce possible risks to a very small percentage.

In all my years I have had one accident. A wall at the back of the stage was poorly constructed and a volunteer, during the induction, leant against the wall and it callapsed under him. He was uninjured and was a great volunteer. I had a team from the Students Union form a human wall at the back of the raised stage for the rest of the show.

Twelve years, one accident. Not bad.

As a magician I have slashed my wrist, suffered horrific burns when a pyro flash ignited in my arms, slipped a disc, been punched by a drunk... No one speaks of the dangers of magic.

Stage hypnosis, done properly, is safe.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 17, 2009 12:55PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-17 11:55, dmkraig wrote:
MP: so let's look at your post.
1) you can't believe that no one here has "come close to injuring someone," but provide NO evidence to support the claim that anyone has done so.

2) You show that some pros with "many many years experience" each have had 1 problem. If we assume that in the last 5 years they've each done a minimum of 100 shows a year, the percentage of such problems is 0.2%. To me--and to any statistician--that's rare.

3) I note that you don't give us an estimate of how many shows you've done along with the number of times someone has been injured during your shows. Are you saying that injury during your shows was common?

4) Of COURSE it was some anti-Stage hypnosis people--none of whom were professional stage hypnotists--who just happened to discover alleged "victims" of stage hypnosis. I imagine in their spare time they're finding dozens of victims of ritual Satanic abuse, too. Where is the data? Where is the proof that these "victims" are suffering? Where is the evidence that most of these people didn't have problems long before being part of a show?

I have seen not ONE drop of evidence that hypnosis has any dangers. Period. Full stop.

I have seen evidence that in rare instances, hypnotists who aren't paying attention can be at fault in allowing an injury to happen during a show. This is rare and is miniscule in comparison to the number of people who are injured in the building trades industry.

I have seen ANECDOTAL (i.e., not scientific proof) that while hypnotized, a hypnotist could give a person a suggestion that might cause a negative psychological response. I have seen NO evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this is a problem that is lasting for the person. Perhaps you could point to some record where hundreds...okay, dozens...okay, a few people have lasting problems as the SOLE result of being in a stage hypnosis show. Further, such data should indicate how this is different than the impressions of parents, teachers, doctors, ministers, etc. have placed on people without hypnosis but which have have long-term negative repercussions.

Performers, IMO, need to be aware of potential problems so they can prevent them from taking place. Performers, IMO, need to maintain alertness during performances so they can put that awareness into practice.
In most cases, IMO, this means if a person wants to be a professional, he or she should get in-person training.

Hypnosis has no dangers. What people do AFTER someone has been hypnotized has some dangers that are rare and can be avoided through training, awareness, and alertness.

Claiming that there are horrendous problems is like waving your arms shouting, "Danger Will Robinson!" It's undocumented, illogical, and way overstated.
[/quote]

More people die in car accidents too, so what? Completly pointless comparison to the trade industries. Heck when you use statistics 100% of Popes have died in office, that is the most DANGEROUS job in the world!

I do have to agree that to claim danger based upon anticidotal evidence is not the way to go either. Ignoring it and saying there have been NO PROBLEMS full stop, is also just as ignorant.

A simple acknowegement of the fact that physical problems can happen and the operator needs to be aware of them, yet not afraid of them, seems a sensiblle middle ground.

As for "psychological" dangers I pose only an interesting story. I started doing the show in Branson Missouri. A theater owner came up to me and we talked about what I did and all that. Then he pointed out how he had a strange side effect from a hypnosis show. He was in a show about 50 years ago, and ever since then he wrote backwards. (you had to hold it up to a mirror to read it) Wanted to know if I could snap him out of it. I had already prior to this expressed that I thought lasting effects from things like hypnosis were bunkum so he then proceded to show me! He wrote backwards PERFECTLY. He even had me sign my name, then duplicated it, BACKWARDS! It as a perfect copy if you looked at it in a mirror!

Now I start to feel badly for the guy and start to maybe reconsider my belief in the process. It was amazing, he would copy paragraphs from books, backwards. It was an odd affliction.

I remained non commital about the whole thing and after a while the jig was up. It was just a talent he had all his life but thought that the hypnosis show after effect would be a good gag. OH IT WAS! I never really lost it or fell for it or anything like that but darn it was funny. Inside I was just wondering what the heck was happening. The old dude was funny and got me.

SO that is as close as I have to "evidence" of any lasting effects. A practical joke played on me by a master! Aparantly he had hit another hypnotist with this and had him going for WEEKS trying to take away his "affliction". Glad I didn't fall for it, but wish I could have watched.

Ok back to your regularly scheduled arguement.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 17, 2009 01:29PM)
Great story, Danny. I laughed out loud - not a common occurance on this forum!
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 17, 2009 04:54PM)
It's very odd, but we all seem to be saying the same thing:
1) the dangers of stage hypnosis are grossly overstated
2) Even so, there is a slight possibility that they could happen
3) Therefore, it would be advisable for professionals to be aware of the possibility, be alert to prevent it, and be trained so that he or she knows what to do in the exceedingly rare situation where it does happen.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 17, 2009 05:46PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 22:18, Dannydoyle wrote:
By not agreeing with us you have proven our point. The dangers you outlined, BOTH of the examples you chose to put forth are PHYSICAL dangers!

Yes bad suggestions led to them but they are physical dangers indeed. Thank you for agreeing.
[/quote]

They may be physical but that they were both caused by bad suggestion. They were caused by careless hyposis. Either way they are dangers I don't see calling them psycholigical or mental makes them any less dangerous?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 17, 2009 05:53PM)
Even though I do not believe in hypnosis I specifically include safety instructions in my suggestions:
You will not jump from the stage.
You will not attack one another.
You will not leave the room.
You wll not climb on anything.
Obviously not all together. When appropriate.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 17, 2009 05:56PM)
You missed A couple

THE HYPNOTIST WILL ALWAYS BE YOUR BEST FRIEND NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!

IF YOU HURT YOURSELF OR SUFFER SEVERE MENTAL DAMAGE MY NAME IS PAUL MCKENNA!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 17, 2009 06:20PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-17 18:46, mindpunisher wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 22:18, Dannydoyle wrote:
By not agreeing with us you have proven our point. The dangers you outlined, BOTH of the examples you chose to put forth are PHYSICAL dangers!

Yes bad suggestions led to them but they are physical dangers indeed. Thank you for agreeing.
[/quote]

They may be physical but that they were both caused by bad suggestion. They were caused by careless hyposis. Either way they are dangers I don't see calling them psycholigical or mental makes them any less dangerous?
[/quote]

No but it would make it more right and easier to talk about. The careless hypnotist seems to be the great danger, and I believe we all agree on this part.
Message: Posted by: RobertTemple (Nov 17, 2009 07:25PM)
I back up MindPunisher here... you can't beat hands on training. It'll cost you, but its the most sure-fire and effective way to learn. Without a doubt.

In answer to the original question? It's as dangerous as a gun - it needs to be handled sensibly and then it is safe.

Simple as that, I guess.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 17, 2009 07:51PM)
I have to say I have seen some "hands on" training that just blows. Is that good to do?

I still say the best way is to find a mentor. Someone you spend copious amounts of time with to learn. Not easy to do any more but still a good way to go.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 17, 2009 09:30PM)
Perhaps if you contact the insurance company here http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=307793&forum=22

you can get an indication of how many "falls" have taken place. As I said it does happen, but not often. Best to be prepared.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 18, 2009 05:34AM)
Hands on training that blows sucks or farts is dependant upon the trainer. It is still better than no training. Like any service it is up to the client or customer to do his due dilligence before entering into a contract.

A mentor or a trainer same thing really.

Any hypnotist who jumps in without proper training/mentoring is careless

>>No but it would make it more right and easier to talk about. The careless hypnotist seems to be the great danger, and I believe we all agree on this part.<<

The thing about stage hypnosis is that everything we do on stage IS stage hypnosis. Not just relaxing someone and inducing the state. It is a silly argument to say hypnosis is harmless when really we are talking about the whole activity.

Also it is much easier to see and quantify the physical damage. The doesn't mean the possibility of mental damage is not possible. Again not by isolating the simple act of relaxing someone and inducing hypnosis but by the whole process and complete actions of doing stage work. There are people with emotional problems, vulnerable and open to having their situation worsened. It is our responsability to look after them.

I know from experience that simple suggestions given to people in moments of vulnerability can have a major impact on their lives for many years. And I am not talking about stage work. I have worked with many in a therapy situation.

So it follows that the suggestions and situations can have a prolonged effect on some people who end up on stage. And although it may not be attributed to the act of "hypnotising" someone. It can be attributed to the "experience" of being on stage. I think that is where health professionals are making most of their points.

For some people to feel "humiliated" and not be in control could trigger prolonged stress and anxiety afterwards.

The thing is we all have emotional baggage.

I have had people fall at my shows I have done things that are risky I am not an angel. Even later on when I became a little more responsable there have been a few times where if my luck were to go a little the other way I could've been in trouble.

Ok its not all doom and gloom but the risk is still there non the less.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 18, 2009 09:23AM)
MP you use words like, "could" "might" "it follows" and things that indicate no concrete proof of what you are saying exists.

As for being "humiliated" at being on stage, well what in the world would make them volunteer in the first place if that happens to them?

You want to extend and expand your definition, without concrete examples. If things like this were happening you would be able to give us examples with stories in print of the happenings.

Science and law are not matters of may, could, might for many years to come, or any other fudge words you want to use to make a point without proof to pose. I agree it is far easier to quantify phsical damage, but that is what leads to so much rumor and myth about hypnosis in the first place.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 18, 2009 12:10PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-17 18:56, mindpunisher wrote:
You missed A couple

THE HYPNOTIST WILL ALWAYS BE YOUR BEST FRIEND NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!

IF YOU HURT YOURSELF OR SUFFER SEVERE MENTAL DAMAGE MY NAME IS PAUL MCKENNA!
[/quote]

LOL! Okay, MP, you get 2 points for that one!

[quote]
On 2009-11-18 09:54, Hawley Harvey wrote:
I have been doing stage hypnosis shows for some considerable time. I agree entirely with Danny Doyle that 95% of harm done to subjects are physical matters. The odds are very slim indeed of mental harm. And that 5% is not as a result of the hypnosis itself but of an underlying condition.

That possibility can easily be take care of in your initial remarks. I always warn the audience before volunteers arrive on stage that if anyone suffers from any psychiatric disturbance or severe stress it would be better if they do not appear on stage. [/quote]

That's nice, except general terms such as "psychiatric disturbance" or "severe stress" could apply to anyone. They are meaningless, unspecific, and unenforceable.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Nov 19, 2009 06:18AM)
I really appreciate all of your opinions.
thanks for that.

Like described earlier this topic does'nt seem to allow for general clarification.
I see pros arguing about physical safty which was also told me first.
on the opposite there was no evidence given about real psycholocial troubles.
But I will not deny that they exsist.

Well one important argument of hypnosis victims is the following:
psychological disorders may occur after everything tooks place.
They go home and boom...

how to comment on that?

I am also coincident in opinion with Dirk Treusch a professional german hypno therapist and trainer.
"you as a hypnotist create your own reality. that reality will reflect on your subjects"

if you have deep fears about psychological trouble which can occur with your subjects you will automatically increasing potential for that risk.
this theory you can base extremly well on workings of the mirror neuron.
for me it makes quit sense!
if you are confident your subject will feel confident.

I am willing to believe and respond to that behaviour.

for me it makes no sense to compare magic with hypnotism as well I am understand what you wanted to say with that tony.

all the best,
art
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 06:56AM)
>>>I see pros arguing about physical safty which was also told me first.
on the opposite there was no evidence given about real psycholocial troubles.
But I will not deny that they exsist<<<<<

Pro's will not entertain the idea of hypnosis being potentially damaging because they make a living from it. You will never get an unbiased opinion on this here.

Many don't have much training beyond a book or dvd when it comes to hypnosis in general. Therefore its not surprising you won't get a clearn unbiased view.

Go search the opposite side of the argument the health profssionals view. Then realise the true answers lie somewhere in between.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 19, 2009 11:03AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-19 07:56, mindpunisher wrote:
>>>I see pros arguing about physical safty which was also told me first.
on the opposite there was no evidence given about real psycholocial troubles.
But I will not deny that they exsist<<<<<

Pro's will not entertain the idea of hypnosis being potentially damaging because they make a living from it. You will never get an unbiased opinion on this here.[/quote]


So since you seem to be paranoid about such shows being "potentially damaging" (no matter how unlikely it might be), I guess you're saying you're not a pro.


[quote]Many don't have much training beyond a book or dvd when it comes to hypnosis in general. Therefore its not surprising you won't get a clearn unbiased view.[/quote]

"Many?" What's "many?" Half of the stage hypnotists? Two-thirds? Five or six?
When did you do the surveys of several hundreds of hypnotists to gain the raw data for this claim?
What school did you go to where you trained, beyond a book or dvd, in running surveys?

[quote]Go search the opposite side of the argument the health profssionals view. Then realise the true answers lie somewhere in between. [/quote]

Uh, no. Truth is truth and not dependent upon opinion from either side.
You have presented NO documentation to support your claim of what "many" are doing.
You're using broad, generalized terms, such as "many," rather than specifics, making your claims meaningless.

Opinions about truth are certainly based on beliefs. Opinions can be used to hide the truth. But facts remain facts and you have presented none.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 11:30AM)
Craig you are a good example of a psychotic and paranoid hypnotist that will go to any rediculous lenght to tell the world hypnosis is completely safe.

What psychiatric background do you have to substantiate those claims? By asking YOU to do the research then YOU take responsabilty for educating yourself. It is a fact that many medical practitioners and psychiatrists do indeed think its potentially harmful. In fact many years ago I was on tv on the news giving the veiwpoint from a stage hypnotist to balance out the claims of a prominent member of the medical community.

I am not here to prove anything one way or another. However I am correct in saying that you will not get an unbiased or balanced view on this forum.

You certainly do not have the credentials to claim anything.

My posts rather than claims on this subject are only meaning less if you do not care to do your homework.

From personal experience I know that stage shows do carry certain risks. And no one that does shows can ever be certain that some of the more vulnerable people who volunteer are not open to risks.

Your opinions are more to do with easing your conscience and selling your show rather than truth. As are those that sell products to those with no experience and encourage them to jump in being ill prepared.

And that IS the truth.
Message: Posted by: mota (Nov 19, 2009 01:13PM)
James, I will be happy to share now. I got an evasive answer that the poster will no doubt try to twist to show he was right.

I was yanking his chain.

Anyone that has been to MLK Boulevard in south Dallas knows it is a place of horrible poverty and looks like a bombed out, third world country. Had this person actually been knowledgeable in the least about this area his response would have been immediate.

The last group to play this area was the Dallas Police Department SWAT team.
Message: Posted by: James Munton (Nov 19, 2009 01:39PM)
Yes, that does sound like the sort of place Della would perform!

Best,
James
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 04:26PM)
This place needs a resident psychiatrist. magicians may be weirdos and socially inadequate but hypnotists are just plain crazy..
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 19, 2009 06:12PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-19 12:30, mindpunisher wrote:
Craig you are a good example of a psychotic and paranoid hypnotist that will go to any rediculous lenght to tell the world hypnosis is completely safe.

What psychiatric background do you have to substantiate those claims? [/quote]

LOL! You start by making a psychological diagnosis (for which, if you were in the U.S., you could be jailed for practicing medicine without a license), and then have the cajones to ask for my CV in this area? You're just too funny.

By the way, I did help start the telephone counseling hotline, including training, for the people at the University of California, San Diego, when I was there years ago.

So where did you get your degree in psychology? And with a degree in psychology, why are you spending your time doing stage hypnosis? Oh, that's right, you don't give shows any more.

[quote}By asking YOU to do the research then YOU take responsabilty for educating yourself. It is a fact that many medical practitioners and psychiatrists do indeed think its potentially harmful. In fact many years ago I was on tv on the news giving the veiwpoint from a stage hypnotist to balance out the claims of a prominent member of the medical community.[/quote]

Once again you make wild claims without supporting them.
1) What, specifically, do you mean by "many" medical practitioners and psychiatrist?
2) How "many" make up this "many?"
3) What makes them experts in hypnosis? A person can have advanced degrees in medicine and psychology without ever taking any training in hypnosis.

[quote]I am not here to prove anything one way or another. However I am correct in saying that you will not get an unbiased or balanced view on this forum.

You certainly do not have the credentials to claim anything. [/quote]

But YOU'RE the one making claims. You say you're not here to prove anything, but you make wild claims without any proof. ***, man! You sound like a politician in the U.S.

[quote]My posts rather than claims on this subject are only meaning less if you do not care to do your homework.[/quote]

Uh, no. Your claims are meaningless when you make generalized statements without any support for them. Anybody can claim anything. You can claim that Mars is covered with canals, but if you don't prove your claims, they're meaningless. It's not up to anyone to prove or disprove your claims, it's up to you to support them.

[quote]From personal experience I know that stage shows do carry certain risks. And no one that does shows can ever be certain that some of the more vulnerable people who volunteer are not open to risks.[/quote]

But that's called "anecdotal evidence" and is not considered scientific. Just because there are risks for YOU when you did hypnosis shows doesn't mean there are the same risks for anyone else.

[quote]Your opinions are more to do with easing your conscience and selling your show rather than truth. As are those that sell products to those with no experience and encourage them to jump in being ill prepared.

And that IS the truth.
[/quote]

No. My opinions are based on scientific research and facts. You make wild, unsupported statements. Further, you are totally misstating my opinions, which I have repeatedly posted here. I have NEVER encouraged a person to "jump in being ill prepared." I have consistently advised getting in-person training and using videos and books to complement and enhance the training.

So let's see. You lie about me. You make broad statements with no supporting facts. But you attack me.
In computerese that's called: EPIC FAIL

LOL!!!!
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 19, 2009 06:21PM)
Your rambling gets more tedious with each post. I don't lie about you - anyone on here can see you are inconsistent often incoherant and do not have grasp of the basics.

Fact: many psychiatrists and medical professionals believe stage hypnosis is harmful to certain types of people. I have appeard on news programmes with them.

Your opinions are based upon a bias to make stage hypnosis look like sunday school because you make a living from it. As most on here are.

My statements are neither wild or unsupported. We both know there are members of the medical community that think stage hypnosis is dangerous and should be banned.

Epic Fail? Man you really are deluded Craig. If it gets your rocks off who am I to spoil the illusion for you.

Cheap thrills are what makes the world go round..

What is this current trend at shouting "attack attack" you are a bunch of women and I aplogise to women for the association.

You make me laugh though. This forum gets crazier by the hour. There are more loonies on here than Bedlam.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Nov 23, 2009 03:45AM)
>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<

dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.

Please guys do not treat each other with hostility.
that's exactly what I experienced with hypnosis.

People who want you to feel comfortable with it.
People who want to make it enjoyable for everybody.
People who tell you that there are dangers.
People who make you feel like a criminal about it.

What about theory that so called "empty hypnosis" is'nt harmful at all.
Can someone confirm that?

Will a rapid induction followed by fractionation and given suggestions of good feeling may lead into a psychosis? or at least cause any psychologial damage?

the problem is real experience is the only way to learn it.

best regards,
art
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 23, 2009 05:31AM)
The real problem is nobody knows for sure what hypnosis is. You will find scientific evidence that it exists and evidence that it doesn't. You will find opposite views on its safety depending upon where you look. There are extreme views on both sides of the coin. And hypnosis must be taken as the whole experience on stage not just the induction.

My preference is to have a balanced veiw and always be open to the possibilities that it could be dangerous or damaging for certain people. That way you are at least prepared.

Nothing on this planet that involves other humans is 100% safe.

Posted: Nov 23, 2009 6:34am
Art - I think Craig is a good example of how hypnosis can either attract psychotics or create them I'm not sure which is the real cause.

But take everything he says with a pinch of salt. He is a prime loon and a good reason we should have tougher regulation around hypnosis.

[quote]
On 2009-11-18 13:15, dmkraig wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-18 09:54, Hawley Harvey wrote:
I have been doing stage hypnosis shows for some considerable time. I agree entirely with Danny Doyle that 95% of harm done to subjects are physical matters. The odds are very slim indeed of mental harm. And that 5% is not as a result of the hypnosis itself but of an underlying condition.

That possibility can easily be take care of in your initial remarks. I always warn the audience before volunteers arrive on stage that if anyone suffers from any psychiatric disturbance or severe stress it would be better if they do not appear on stage. [/quote]

That's nice, except general terms such as "psychiatric disturbance" or "severe stress" could apply to anyone. They are meaningless, unspecific, and unenforceable.
[/quote]

Craig another example of your obsession to try and get your money's worth out of your corrospondance course on NLP. You try and meta question everything without even thinking.

psychiatric disturbance or severe stress is pretty clear to most people. If there is something wrong with you don't volunteer. Or are you going to stand up there with a psychiatric dictionary and read out all the labels that they use?

I mean honestly stop and think before you post.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 23, 2009 10:03AM)
LOL! The terms can mean anything to anyone. As such, they are meaningless. Just like many of your posts.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 23, 2009 10:44AM)
I'm with Mindpunsher. Psychiatric disturbance or severe stress are quite clear lay terms, and your audience will know what they mean, even if you don't. You give the warning, and that weeds out most. You can spot most of the rest. In all my years performing I have never had a disturbed person last beyond the first routine, because they are not difficult to spot. You just have to be alert.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 23, 2009 04:08PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 04:45, ArtIn wrote:
>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<

dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.

[/quote]

Which ones, Artin?
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 23, 2009 04:19PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 11:44, TonyB2009 wrote:
I'm with Mindpunsher. Psychiatric disturbance or severe stress are quite clear lay terms, [/quote]

Really, Tony?
Perhaps you could provide a few websites that give a definition of those specific terms? I've done several searches for the first and haven't found anything, and the second is so general as to be meaningless (what is "severe" and what isn't?).

[quote]and your audience will know what they mean, even if you don't. [/quote]

Actually, I think it would be more likely that the more a person is suffering from stress or some undiagnosed psychiatric disorder the less likely they would know what those expressions apply to them.

For example, MP's statement that people here should listen to him more could be construed as signs of a persecution complex. However, if you ask him, I'm sure he'd be the first to adamantly deny it. He's fine. It's the rest of us who have the problems!

[quote]You give the warning, and that weeds out most. You can spot most of the rest. In all my years performing I have never had a disturbed person last beyond the first routine, because they are not difficult to spot. You just have to be alert.
[/quote]

I fully agree that you should give a warning and that you should be able to spot potential problems early on. My only issue is with the meaningless wording of the "warning" as described. Here in the U.S. (which, admittedly, is what I'm going by), if you gave that warning and someone with problems came on stage only to have those problems manifest (whether it was the fault of the hypnotist or not), that person could still sue you saying that your warning (i.e., technically a legal disclaimer) was neither clear nor specific.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Nov 24, 2009 03:26AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 17:08, dmkraig wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 04:45, ArtIn wrote:
>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<


@dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.

[/quote]

Which ones, Artin?
[/quote]

I meant a source (books, internet links) of those scientific researches and facts.
if there is something to read about specifically I would be glad to do.

how do you phrase your warning for your audience?

I appreciate mindpunishers opinion and I still think it's some kind of "healthy view".
the fact of considering that there could go something wrong with somebody.
it does'nt have to happen but to be prepared could'nt be a bad initial situation.


@mindpunisher

empty hypnosis is not about doing only a induction.

my question was can that whole progress:
[concentration exercises - magnetic fingers - magnetic palms -> followed by a rapid induction -> followed by suggestions for a stiff arm or levitating arms and suggestions of wellness! -> at least leading the subject out of hypnosis.

can that progress damage somebody.
can that cause a psychosis or psychological disturbance?

what would anthony jaquin say about that theme?

just out of curiosity
did somebody plan going to blackpool next year?

best regards,
martin
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Nov 24, 2009 05:20AM)
[quote]
my question was can that whole progress:
[concentration exercises - magnetic fingers - magnetic palms -> followed by a rapid induction -> followed by suggestions for a stiff arm or levitating arms and suggestions of wellness! -> at least leading the subject out of hypnosis.

can that progress damage somebody.
can that cause a psychosis or psychological disturbance?

what would anthony jaquin say about that theme?

just out of curiosity
did somebody plan going to blackpool next year?

best regards,
martin
[/quote]

Hi Martin,

no I would not expect the process you outlined above to CAUSE psychosis or psychological damage. If some believe that it can then I would like to see the evidence and will revise my view.

If someone is already psychotic or psychologically damaged then they should not be on your stage by that point. If someone does not know they are psychotic or psychologically damaged then all you have left is your gut feeling and experience about whether they are suitable for your performance.

Keep health and safety top of your agenda. Abreaction is rare but real and easily dealt with if you are prepared for it. Check Equity or Stage Hypnosis Act for the guidelines that must be included in your intro.

Yes I will be at Blackpool, let's catch up there.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 24, 2009 05:26AM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-05 14:44, dmkraig wrote:
Yep. Tony and Richard are exactly correct. In thousands of year of working with hypnosis and its precedents, there has never been a case of someone going into trance and not emerging from it. I'd say that's a pretty good record!


[/quote]

Thousands of years? Wheres your proof? How can you say that? Is this one of your statements based upon scientific research? If so let us see it? Where is the research for thousands of years?

Why not millions of years go for broke.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 24, 2009 05:27AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 11:03, dmkraig wrote:
LOL! The terms can mean anything to anyone. As such, they are meaningless. Just like many of your posts.
[/quote]

The terms might mean anything to you but I would definately apply them to you.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Nov 24, 2009 09:02AM)
Thank you for your comment anthony.

<<If someone does not know they are psychotic or psychologically damaged then all you have left is your gut feeling and experience about whether they are suitable for your performance. >>

that's a interesting point enemies of hypnosis argue very hard about.
They tell you that it is'nt possible to spot those persons.
"Every third is psychotic and every second person at least neurotic."
That frame makes it hard for me to learn.
Last time I met somebody who said he will report the next stage hypnotist to the police for using medical/therapy technics?!? dunno if it really can be converted that way.

He really believes that hypnosis is a deep intrusion causing potential damage.
It should be only done by skilled medical/psychological studied personnel.

those guys really raise disturbance...


looking forward to see you in blackpool.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Nov 24, 2009 09:10AM)
Craig, you are looking for a definition of stress. From a strictly engineering point of view stress is the forces we subject a structure to. Strain is the effects those stresses have on the structure. So the definition is useless to us.

Whether we define it or not, everyone in our audience will know what we mean. Just as we can all count to ten without studying group and field theory, or switch on a light without any knowledge of electricity, so we all know intuitively what sort of people hypnotists do not want on their stages.

We also know intuitively when these sort of people volunteer, and we can politely ask them to rejoin the audience.

This is not a legal thing; it is a curtest to the audience, and a safety thing. And the proof that this common-sense approach works is that legal cases are rare, and even more rarely successful.

In fact, I am not aware of any successful cases claiming psychological damage. If you are aware of any, please let us know. It concerns us all. But it is a rarity. Tony.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 24, 2009 10:04AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 04:26, ArtIn wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 17:08, dmkraig wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 04:45, ArtIn wrote:
>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<


@dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.

[/quote]

Which ones, Artin?
[/quote]

I meant a source (books, internet links) of those scientific researches and facts.
if there is something to read about specifically I would be glad to do.

how do you phrase your warning for your audience?

I appreciate mindpunishers opinion and I still think it's some kind of "healthy view".
the fact of considering that there could go something wrong with somebody.
it does'nt have to happen but to be prepared could'nt be a bad initial situation.

martin
[/quote]

I'm sorry I was unclear, Martin.
Of course you're looking for books or sources.
What I was asking about was for which opinion that I expressed.
Tell me what it is that I wrote that you want proof for and I'll provide sources.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 24, 2009 10:11AM)
Yes, MP, thousands of years.

The proof is that there is not one book, not one article, not one source that shows anyone has gone into trance and not emerged from it.

Since humans have not been around for millions of years, only a fool with no knowledge of history would even bring that up.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 24, 2009 10:31AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 10:10, TonyB2009 wrote:
Craig, you are looking for a definition of stress. From a strictly engineering point of view stress is the forces we subject a structure to. Strain is the effects those stresses have on the structure. So the definition is useless to us.[/quote]

No, Toni, I am NOT looking for a definition of stress. What I am saying is that the expression "severe stress" can meaning anything. For some people, being asked to do a simple task might cause them "severe stress." To another person, doing that same task might not be considered stressful at all, and certainly not "severe."

[quote] Whether we define it or not, everyone in our audience will know what we mean. [/quote]

Amazing! I thought you were doing hypnosis when, in fact, you were doing mind reading! :)

In fact, if you asked 100 people to define "severe stress," I would bet they would have a wide variety of definitions for the expression. Someone whom you would consider being under "severe stress" might consider themselves not to be under stress at all. They might not even recognize what they're experiencing as stress.

[quote]Just as we can all count to ten without studying group and field theory, or switch on a light without any knowledge of electricity, so we all know intuitively what sort of people hypnotists do not want on their stages.[/quote]

I can give a definition of "ten." I find it interesting that although you claim that everyone knows what "severe stress" is, you haven't given a specific definition of it.

The thing is, as soon as you make clear what your definition is, that's the expression to use. That way, people will know exactly what you mean and not wonder, "Hmmm...is my stress moderate or severe?"

[quote]We also know intuitively when these sort of people volunteer, and we can politely ask them to rejoin the audience.[/quote]

I'm not so sure that's it's intuitive so much as something we learn from experience. However, I agree that hypnotists with experience can spot them easily and ask them to enjoy the show from the audience.

[quote]This is not a legal thing; it is a curtest to the audience, and a safety thing. And the proof that this common-sense approach works is that legal cases are rare, and even more rarely successful.[/quote]

You're correct that legal cases are rare, but I would contend that's more because being in trance isn't harmful and not because we've prevented someone from going bonkers because while in a trance they thought they were feeling cold.

However here, in the U.S., it's far more of a legal matter. The disclaimer gives the performer plausible deniability. "Your honor, I warned people under psychiatric care not to participate and he still chose to come on stage. I can't be responsible for people who were not hypnotized when they decided to act against my explicit instructions."

[quote]In fact, I am not aware of any successful cases claiming psychological damage. If you are aware of any, please let us know. It concerns us all. But it is a rarity. Tony.
[/quote]

I agree with you on this. This is what I've said all along, but MP was more interested in spreading fear that someone was going to be flopping like a fish out off water if they even came near a trance. There's just no evidence to support it, in spite of MPs insistence that it's a constant danger.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 24, 2009 11:08AM)
You are such a plonker Craig really.

I doubt in any court of Law if someone was hurt or damaged in any way after being or because of being on stage and that "I told you not to come up" would save you from prosicution.

Secondly nowhere have I ever said trance on its own is dangerous. I have said stage hypnosis which includes a lot more than trance may be dangerous for certain people especially in the hands of badly trained practitioners.


I have also said that just because there is no concrete "proof" doesn't mean that misuse of hypnosis can't harm. The real truth is no one knows for sure.


Dr heap is a well known Medical expert that gave evidence in the case of Sharon Tabarn that said Hypnosis was not the likely cause of her death from a suggestion of 100,000 volts in the Uk. Apparantly she had a severe phobia of electricity.

However he also noted

"Dr. Heap also noted "some suggestions such as receiving an electric shock may cause sudden fear, and thereby may be construed as real stressors. Perhaps this aspect of stage hypnosis may have serious harmful effects in certain vulnerable individuals" (Heap, 1995, p. 5)."

Heap himself who gave evidence in FAVOUR of the stage hypnosis concedes that it may be dangerous to certain individuals. And of course there were medical practitioners who thought that it had a direct connection to her death.

According to Craig no members of the medical profession believe hypnosis is dangerous based on his "scientific facts". In actual fact there are many members of the Medical community who are opposed to stage hypnosis.

The truth is nobody knows for 100% certainty.

Personally I believe that some people may be vulnerable and care needs to be taken while handling people on stage.

Craig just doesn't seem to get it. He's stuck in La La land.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Nov 25, 2009 05:24PM)
You know, it's amazing, MP, that with all your misrepresentation and lies about what others post that you can even sleep at night...unless, of course, you're psychotic yourself.

So let's go through your misrepresentations and lies, one by one.

1) I NEVER said that making a disclaimer would prevent you from being sued. I said it would give you "plausible deniability." That's a defense, not a prevention.

2) You have CONTINUALLY stated that if someone has some sort of problem and is hypnotized they might have problems as a result. In fact, you have talked about it so much you sound like a terrorist trying to prevent anyone from doing hypnosis. If you want to deny your position now and state that, in fact, it is highly unlikely that stage hypnosis will mentally harm someone I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.

3) You know say that just because there's no proof of harm doesn't mean there hasn't been any. This is the same argument used by Creationists, "absence of proof doesn't mean proof of absence." In this case, lack of proof of harm doesn't mean it hasn't happened. By the same token, the absence of proof of little green men living on Mars doesn't mean they aren't there.

Frankly, MP, it WOULD be a good argument except for one thing: you're the one making the claim of all this harm. Therefore, it's up to you to prove your claim. So come on, give us some proof. Since according to you it's so likely to happen, you should have no problem coming up with LOTS of examples. I'm sure we're all waiting for your proof.

4) You quote Dr. Heap, but look at his "weasel words": "may cause...may be construed ... Perhaps this aspect... may have..." This is typical of someone who is trying to make a point without any evidence or proof. It suggests a connection without any proof of the connection and gives out after out after out. Not once did he say that X causes Y. Instead he says "perhaps" it does or it "may cause." It sounds good but it's meaningless.

5) Next, MP goes on to outright misrepresent what I said. Oh screw that...he's an outright liar. I NEVER wrote, I NEVER implied that "no members of the medical profession believe hypnosis is dangerous." To say that I claimed that is 100% false and misleading. It is libelous.

What happened was that MP wrote that "most" medical professionals believed that. I wrote that I had seen no evidence that "most" of them believed that or that even "many" believed it. In fact, my guess is, most medical professional would give no professional opinion about this since it's outside their scope of practice. Do SOME believe that way? Absolutely. Contrary to the lies of MP I would never deny that some medical professionals believe that, although I would contend that many of those have their own agendas about that rather than having actually studied any data.

However, the reasons that a relatively small number, and not "most" as MP claimed, of medical professional believe that way is not the issue. The issue, pure and simple, is that MP is an outright liar. If he isn't psychotic he should be feeling shame for his misrepresentations right now.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Dec 2, 2009 05:36PM)
You don't half ramble Craig....

Who wound up your elastic band? You also contradict yourself constantly. I am sorry I don't have scientific proof for this it is just my opinion from observation.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Dec 2, 2009 06:31PM)
You don't even bother denying how much of a liar you are.
Of course, we can all see that truth so that would be a waste of your time.