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Topic: Doing it for real
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 02:06PM)
Is there anyone else on this Café who secretly dedicates a certain amount of their show to "Doing It For Real"?

Not to start a war here. Just wanted to know 'Who's With Me!!!!" as Bluto would say :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q47bpOCTcaY
Message: Posted by: Matthew Townsend (Oct 8, 2009 02:08PM)
I always cheat. That means I'm always correct!

Seriously tho, I sometimes add psychological experiments into my shows, most are effects that can be brushed off as just getting to know the spectators mind if they don't work like Disposable Colour and things like that.

I never rely on these methods for the main effects tho.

M
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 02:11PM)
That's good ... Talk it over :)

If you have nine bonna fide hits, why not WALK ON THE WILD SIDE ?

No one went with Bluto at first :)

But later it was LET'S DO IT !!!!!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Patrick Redford (Oct 8, 2009 02:19PM)
I do a few things 'for real' in my show. Prevaricator / which hand / and so on are certainly some of those items.
Message: Posted by: Jay Are (Oct 8, 2009 02:22PM)
For real is called "Intuition" and I use it every time I do my Q&A...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 02:23PM)
Excellent !!!! Now we are getting somewhere. :)
Many Mentalists in the past came to the conclusion after years of performances that something REAL could be attained in the art of Mental Mysteries.
Message: Posted by: stashu (Oct 8, 2009 02:55PM)
Lets just say I don't have pingpong balls taped to my eyes under red light while listening to white noise for fun during my q&a! ;)
Message: Posted by: markthorold (Oct 8, 2009 02:58PM)
Tonight ladies and gents ,Im going to lie to you non stop , but we're going to have fun nevertheless.............................
Message: Posted by: Mike Ince (Oct 8, 2009 03:03PM)
I get a thrill from putting guesses out there. There's nothing like a real "hit," whether it came from pure guesswork or subconscious recognition of clues. I can truthfully say "Sometimes even I'm not sure how I do these things." After reading about years of psi research, I doubt such hits evidence psychic abilities. Such moments aren't "real" to me in the psychic sense, yet something IS really happening, and I'm not completely sure what that something is. I have my theories.

Making bold statements is worth the risk. Making soft, then bold, statements during Q&A works; I've seen it work. Skipping the soft statements and going straight for the bold isn't a risk I often take, but in the context of a show, maybe I should. It certainly works well for TV psychics. It could work well for a self-proclaimed mentalist.

Up close, Andrew Gerard's "Ultimate Imagination" fits the bill. It's pretty reliable, and it's real. Pendulum/ideomotor demonstrations are real. "Jazz ESP" is one I've gotten good at; I use the outs less frequently... I often place a card down on the table, then the participant places the matching card in front of them... for real. It works again and again. I wouldn't try it in a formal show without having a backup plan, though. I like to experiment with the real, but I'd rather have the reliable ready to close with.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 03:04PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-08 15:58, markthorold wrote:
Tonight ladies and gents ,Im going to lie to you non stop , but we're going to have fun nevertheless.............................
[/quote]

Mark ... we aren't talking about Penn and Teller here :)
Hannusen, Mann, Ted, and dozens of other mentalists that had performed for years all stated that going the extra step was possible if not demanded by a growing and learning mentalist.

This thread is for those who agree. Not for those who don't :)
Message: Posted by: stashu (Oct 8, 2009 03:20PM)
I cant prove psychic phenomena exists, on a fundamental basic level of logic that falls under proving a negative and that's impossible,

so...

I don't know if Im a psychic, and I don't know if I possess genuine psychic abilities, I do know that if I do, I'm not unique we all have this ability...

Its funny because lately in closeup Ive been writing down, and concentrating upon transmitting the name of Country, with the expectation the recevier gets it wrong, so I can establish trust & rapport by confessing my miss, giving reason to start off with something a little easier for me to transmitt such as a target number for example.

LATELY, when I don't want somehting to work, and I have no expectation that it will, it does... which is very, very strange!!!

I live and die by a quote from psychic samurai which was something like

"it is 100% true to claim that you do what you do with the power of your mind"

I believe that is true, Im not the only one that thinks so, many leading neurscientists looking into exceptional human functioning have confessed the power of the mind is not fully utilised, and is capable of things we cant possibly imagine,

From that angle I seem to get on very well with everyone! Of course if they don't share the same point of view as myself, and they don't believe in the power of thier mind, that's okay with me too, because whether you think you can or you think you cant your right!
Message: Posted by: Lord Of The Horses (Oct 8, 2009 03:32PM)
I don't do anything for real but everything I do is not faked in any way.
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Oct 8, 2009 03:34PM)
Okay, I'm gonna get a lot of **** for this. I do a very well known suggestion. It is pure psychology, linguistics and a ton of confidence. I've probably done this over a hundred times. I swear I have achieved 100% success. It's forcing a Triangle. I posted my take on the suggestion elsewhere in The Café. Basically I draw a picture of a triangle (unseen), fold it up, hand it to them. give them the patter, they name a shape and (so far) they name "triangle". They unfold the paper and there's the triangle. No switches, no moves, no pre-show LOL. Is that the real deal? I guess it depends how you define the real deal.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 03:35PM)
On a recent Live radio show I performed something that many may recognize. I allowed the Host a TRUE SELECTION of any celebrity he desired. He also had a selection of FUTURES that was NOT FORCED in any way, as many here already know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7pLdJpz8Hw

I left the Future prediction wide open to the celebrity selection ....

Within ten days I had a direct hit.(Aside from the 100% direct hits at the event)

Crystal ... there was a Worldwide release of The Crystal Adventure (Video game) !!!!!

Universal Pictures had purchased the movie "Land of the Lost" with Will Ferrell ... the key word was finance or purchase.

Within a few months it was the Biggest Financial Loser of the Year! (Not all predictions are good :) )
The worst purchase Universal has made in over a decade.

That week Will Ferrel's video "Invisible FIRE" got almost 100,000 youtube hits.

None of these things could have been foreknown in any way. The celebrity selection was totally random.

These things happened "For Real" :)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 8, 2009 03:35PM)
I just do it with style...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 03:48PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-08 16:34, kinesis wrote:
Okay, I'm gonna get a lot of S**t for this. I do a very well known suggestion. It is pure psychology, linguistics and a ton of confidence. I've probably done this over a hundred times. I swear I have achieved 100% success. It's forcing a Triangle. I posted my take on the suggestion elsewhere in The Café. Basically I draw a picture of a triangle (unseen), fold it up, hand it to them. give them the patter, they name a shape and (so far) they name "triangle". They unfold the paper and there's the triangle. No switches, no moves, no pre-show LOL. Is that the real deal? I guess it depends how you define the real deal.
[/quote]

That's the Spirit!!!!!

Now I challenge you to try something else that is not 100%.
As soon as you've mastered that, then on to something else ... See the possibilities?
Message: Posted by: Bertrand Thornley (Oct 8, 2009 05:29PM)
History and research has proven our faculty of "reason" evolves like everything else. The more sophisticated our reason, the more open to the trans-rational we are. Not pre-rational but...post or TRANSrational!

I raise a glass(of rum) to Psychic Samurai. He has respect for the unfolding Mystery.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 05:42PM)
Thanks BT !!! :cheers:

Rum when you come to Orlando ... That goes for everyone on either side of the coin too!

My studies on Hanussen have been very enlightening and thought provoking. The concept of Shut Eye has always intrigued me. Why?
Why would someone whose spent all those years performing and studying decide that the Mysteries DO exist?

His predictions were simply amazing before his assassination. (Please...NO.... HE SHOULD HAVE SEEN IT COMING ... reports are that he actually did but there was little escape in Nazi Germany)

I hope to hear more stories about those of you who are not afraid to give "The Real Thing" a try now and then :)
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Oct 8, 2009 05:44PM)
I'm an advocate of 'doing it for real' to the greatest extent possible.

My approach to mentalism is a lot different than most in that I ALWAYS attempt to achieve my effects through psychological means, intuition, hypnosis, rapport/leading/compliance, suggestion, natural knowing and intuition FIRST AND FOREMOST. Granted, performing in such a manner and fashion is risky and bold (that's why I love it) and I only use classical mentalism as an 'out' for failed REAL phenomena in a theatrical performance environment.

If I'm giving a public demonstration or private reading/workshop where it's billed (and accepted or assumed) as the REAL DEAL then if I'm wrong or make a mistake or misinterpret something I accept that I'm wrong and do nothing to change that fact - I just move on and intend to do my very best with my god-given abilities. I gave up the lust for 'hits' and always being 'right' or 'dead on' many years ago.

Today I do my best to share magic and natural abilities that inspires REAL MAGIC to happen all around and within us. When my REAL gifts, ablities, 'methods' and techniques fail me (and at this stage they succeed for what I do more than they falter) I can resort to classical methods which don't require any gaffs or gimmicks. Everything I do can be done with normal, every day items and even better if they are borrowed.

Examples of this might be a zodiac sign divination, 'TERASABOS', a psychological pulse stop or drawing duplication, magic squares, an impromptu/gaffless book test, my 'Thought Channel', 'True Telepathy', Contact Mind Reading, Psychological Forces, Body Magic and other such methods, routines and demonstrations. Even when what I do is not 'real' it's REAL in that I'm not employing gimmicks, many of these demonstrations are not 100% and CAN (and will!) fail at times and yet they FEEL 100% real to my audience because traditional trickery, deception and illusions are not present. There is no magicians guilt. I offer miracles that are not so miraculous as to cause them to NOT be believed. While the material I use is very strong none of it is over the top or too outrageous to be mistaken for the real thing. One point in the criteria I have for my own material is that even if what I'm doing is a 'trick' it has to be indistinguishable from the real thing.

Because I take this approach I now shy away from things which cannot (or better said, which I CANNOT) do for REAL. Things like metal bending, TK/PK and other such demonstrations are no longer parts of my program. In my current show, program and lecture I stick with audience/group readings (Q&A with no gaffs, no preshow work and no preparation) and as Jay Are said, I prefer to utilize my own natural knowing, intuition, creativity and heartfelt impressions/gut response as the primary method. If I'm OFF (which I admit happens a lot!) or I'm having a bad night/under a lot of stress (as I am currently) I have other means I can fall back on - and those means are strictly a LAST RESORT, not my first intention.

At this point in my performing career I don't usually incorporate gaffs, gimmicks, preshow work, stooges, covert electronics or anything even closely resembling them as the methods I use (though I do enjoy tinkering with such things at times to boost my own creative process and discover ways of achieving what they can do WITHOUT them!). Instead I use the 'methods' mentioned at the beginning of this post to create 'mentalism-like' effects with NON MENTALISM means and most of my methods are ones I've developed myself or have come from OUTSIDE the mentalism community.

Because my material consists of a nearly even split between hypnosis and intuitive/psychic readings this isn't a problem for me. My current program is ALL audience readings/Q&A. I might even toss in a Past Life Regression, energy balancing, hands on healing or even a spiritual blessing at times. I certainly can't and don't consider myself a mentalist in the traditional, classic or strictest sense of the word. I hang out on these forums because I love magic, I love mind reading and I've learned A TON about speaking, working in front of large groups of people, customizing a program, lecture or demonstration, writing a working format, engaging and entertaining people, scripting, timing, pacing, theatre and other tools which are useful for professionals in other industries as well such as salesmen, public speakers, authors, lecturers, trainers, consultants, life coaches and so on and so forth. I love mentalism for what it is and for what is was to me and still IS to me. It's a wonderful creative exercise and some of my best friends are magicians and mentalists.

Between readings and hypnosis there is very little I can't do, I work clean and I enjoy the work I do, as does my audience. I believe VERY STRONGLY in the REAL stuff as part of my life, personal experience and spiritual beliefs... I always have and always will and I'm not afraid to say it. I've done, seen and experienced too much to convince me otherwise.

There are a number of fantastic mentalists who advocate 'doing it for real' or AT LEAST 'trying it for real.' Immediately such people as Millard Longman, Enrique Enriquez, John Riggs, Tony I, Kenton and a few others come to mind.

Whether or not what we do is achieved through so called 'psychic' or 'supernatural' means or via 'psychological' and 'intuitive' methods varies based on the individual. I certainly CANNOT/would not/won't presume to know or tell you guys exactly what each of these fine gentlemen believes about what they do on a personal level, but what I do know is that each of them seems open to the possibility of creating miracles without trickery and sharing experiences and possibilities (with and) without deception.

So does not using gaffs and gimmicks make an experience 'real?' Certainly not, at least I don't think so - if it's fake then it's fake through any means or method.

I do believe that using our natural knowing, intuition, creativity/imagination, gut responses and other means of gaining information is a REAL, viable method for use in performance mentalism and can have dramatic, deep, impressive and touching results. It's something I wish more mentalists would be open to. To me there is nothing sadder than magicians who don't believe in magic or mind readers who don't/can't/won't/refuse to embrace THE POSSIBILITY of real mind reading or at least try it (or at the very least NOT harp on those of us who do).
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Oct 8, 2009 05:53PM)
I can & DO embrace...nice post Jerome!

Nathan
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Oct 8, 2009 05:56PM)
Thank you, Nate. I know you do!

My post should have read, "To me there is nothing sadder in MAGIC AND MENTALISM than magicians who don't believe in magic or mind readers who refuse to embrace THE POSSIBILITY of real mind reading or at least try it (or at the very least NOT harp on those of us who do)."

There are many things which can make the world a dreary place. I'm speaking about performance art and specifically magic and mentalism with that remark. ;)
Message: Posted by: dmoses (Oct 8, 2009 06:39PM)
Amen guys.

I'd suggest that even the most psychically skeptical performer would be "doing it for real" constantly in a performance. From picking the "best" spectator for an effect, to pacing a performance by taking advantage of the natural rhythms of his audience.

And putting aside sincere performances of psychometry or QA on which you might rely on your natural knowing and intuition... just simple psychological forces I use are adjusted based on the person I'm performing for.

I'm always looking for that moment of real minding.

Funny, Fabulous Monster was playing on Enigma again this week (in Canada) and watching Max Maven really read minds during his performance was fascinating.

d
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 8, 2009 06:55PM)
So far so good ... No Bloodletting Yet !!!!!!
I'm so happy !!!!! :dancing:
Message: Posted by: burst (Oct 8, 2009 07:27PM)
I'm actually in the process of leaning more towards what you communicated here, Jerome. For the past ten days, I've remained silent. As in, words aren't escaping my lips. My intuition has been improving with each passing day. Relationships are becoming stronger. Strangers feel an intense connection to me. I went to a show Tuesday evening, and at the end the performer and I hugged before I left the venue. Outside the show, as I was leaving, just about every single person outside hugged me before I left. I maybe knew half of them. During the show, a girl literally wrapped my arms around her and held me there as we jumped around and danced. Between songs she would hold my hand, fingers interlocked. She was perfectly sober. Something inside of her let her know she was safe with me. . . I don't know how to precisely explain the interaction with her and how innocent and loving it truly was. . .

At coffee shops, people are beginning to pour their heart and soul out to me. They could be a stranger, someone I haven't seen since I was twelve, or a casual friend that has kept up barriers. Some of these people have cried, or were on the verge of crying (these instances were always healthy; they found how to happy). There have been a number of times when I just felt I should say something (I write in a little book), and it has always ended up being about what the person is going through, what they needed to hear.

The point to this is that, for me and the people that have been around me lately, all of this is real magic. There is no purer form of magic than connecting deeply with another human being, helping them as much as you possibly can, and allowing them to feel your love for them.

So, yes, I do it for real. While I have been continuing to write shows feeling that I will be doing this (I may still perform them as I do love this art), I will most likely be concentrating the majority of my time and effort on this.

I know these things may sound absurd. Check my facebook (PM me), get in touch with my friends; it's all true. As Jerome said for what he is doing, all I've been using is conversational hypnosis (has taken some thought in how to do it with writing) and intuition. The only thing I would add is a real desire to listen to what others are communicating. So much so that what they are holding back can be heard. I hope that I will be able to get Jerome's Thought Veil to further all of this. All of his previous work has helped enable this.

I want to keep this silence going for another few weeks (shooting for 40 days, kudos is you know why), or even longer, but I am also excited to see what will be possible once I am speaking again.

To point out another absurdity, I recognise that ten days is not very much time. I'm fully aware that it is a drop in the bucket. And to be honest, there were a couple of slip ups. There were two times when I spoke a couple of words instantly after waking up. Also, at the show on Tuesday I yelled something. Don't remember what, didn't think about it, it just came out naturally. For me, those don't really count as slip ups. It was simply too raw, went beyond my conscious thought.

And please don't try to think I'm tooting my own horn. It's just that, for me, this is integral to express that I have been doing it for real, and what I think that means.
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Oct 8, 2009 07:37PM)
There are two or three things I believe I do for real in my mentalism shows.

Obviously NLP based cold reading is real because it is psychological, and the same goes for hypnosis. I remember reading a forum months ago where the hypnotists were saying that they were the only magicians that did not have anything to hide.

On the other hand, I use for cold reading some techniques I learnt years ago, that have to do with reading a persons aura. Obviously I am not going to argue weather it is real or not, because that wouldn't be to scientific or academic. The only thing I know is that it works! Even though, someone could argue saying that I am just reading non-verbal communication at an unconscious level or something like that.

Best regards,

Giovanni.
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Oct 8, 2009 07:52PM)
In my experience HYPNOSIS is a potent tool for tapping the subconscious mind and opening up the doors to natural knowing, intuition, imagination, creativity, EMOTIONS and more - as we both know very well.

Yes, I can agree that professional mentalists 'do it for real' as far as psychology goes throughout their act. We're on the level there.

One can perform and attain a professional, ENTERTAINMENT level show or program through psychology only. Works such as George Anderson's 'Dynamite Mentalism' or my own 'Guerrilla Q&A' (or Meyer's 'Telepathy in Action' or ANY hypnosis show!)prove this. When I'm embracing my role AS a genuine psychic and nothing fake or fraudulent is present in my work I'm happy to make that claim. Why not? I can call a spade a spade. I've learned to do that :) .

Magic, shamanism and spirituality (together with religion and hypnosis or at least 'trance') goes back tens of thousands of years. Even for all the errors between its pages I often recommend the book, 'The Death and Resurrection Show' to people interested in more information and perspectives along these lines.

I've not concerned myself with 'hits' for a very long time now. Instead I am concerned only with a sincere, genuine and genuinely helpful experience. What I offer should be unique and interesting. I intend for my program to remain powerful, moving, artful and elegant - my work is polished, well structured and completely free of any mentalism methods, trickery, deception, illusions or chicanery at the moment. Not that those things are 'wrong' by any means, because they are not! It's a personal choice and one I've made whichs adds to the discussion in threads such as this one and the topic of 'doing it for real.'

I don't present my programs and evenings as 'entertainment' because that is not my sole purpose or intention when offering them... With that in mind, it just so happens that many people DO FIND what I offer incredibly entertaining, educational/informational, helpful, genuine and memorable. Magic has its place in what I do (if you would read my post on page 1) because many of the OTHER skills, techniques, stagecraft, speaking skills, people skills, audience management and other areas translate perfectly across the board there too.

-J
Message: Posted by: burst (Oct 8, 2009 07:53PM)
I forgot to mention the point to the part of me at the show. There were times where I felt like I was radiating. After the show, people either mentioned that they felt various intense positive emotions emitting from me to them, or that they saw a slight glow around me.

Magic, in other words. This was in part to the performer that evening, me being in tune with what it is he creates, and my current state of mind. If it will help make sense of what I am expressing, this guy uses hypnosis and a lot of audience compliance techniques. Man is just brilliant.
Message: Posted by: MDantes (Oct 8, 2009 11:27PM)
Me and what I do is "real".

The feelings I have, my Natural Knowing, as TT2 put it so well, that we have all had or been apart of.

What I think, or believe.

These people are real.

Their thoughts and feeling, the concerns, their reasonings for coming and speaking with me.

Some people do no need to spend a ****load of money to see a psychiatrist, or take medication, some people just need to talk to someone who will listen and be there.

To care and mean it.

So, yes, that is all "real".

Often though, "entertainment" just happens.

Clients usually come and receive a reading and have a great time.

That is "real".

Whatever kind of definition of "real" makes you comfortable it up to you.

However you put it.

Whatever emotional attachment you choose to put to it.

Most of us have nothing to prove to anyone, we work, help when it is needed and do it like we do it.

Answer questions and give opinions when asked.

(grins) sometimes when not.

Wether you agree or disagree with our opinions or that there are people like us that come and communicate on a "magic forum".

...

(nods) It is real.

For real.

MD
Message: Posted by: JohnWells (Oct 9, 2009 12:08AM)
Dave, I'm with you 100%. I derive more satisfaction from "doing it for real" (private reading) than I ever did as a performer. While I certainly use various psychological techniques to make the reading process more effective, the deepest results I can take no credit for. That I can sometimes see what people are seeing in their own mind, I can take no credit for. All is grace.
Message: Posted by: KBLV (Oct 9, 2009 03:23AM)
Here ya go...this is a post I made at the Bizarre Magic board. The date/time-stamp on the post has not been altered, and this post was up before Sarah Palin's name was even MENTIONED as a possibility. Was it "real"? No. Was the following post faked? No. Was it a wild-assed guess? Not at all.

The Oracle Speaks
by KevinBurke on Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:07 pm

I predict John McCain will choose the Governor of Alaska as his running mate. So mote it be!~KB
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Oct 9, 2009 03:41AM)
I feel this thread is bordering heavily on the "magic" behind the spiritual connection of 2 individuals (the performaer and participant) and to what degree this connection can be harnessed to allow for miracles to occur.

Dave, I hate to tell you this, but if you trully, trully want to experience the giving involved in this kind of magic, then the Captain Morgans cannot be part of the equation; true spiritual connectivity requires clarity of mind also :)

I like the way your heading with this, right up my alley, but the more connection develops, the less "performance" there is, true spiritual connection is not a stage act ;)

Kam
Message: Posted by: Matthew Townsend (Oct 9, 2009 05:20AM)
Whilst I don't believe in psychic ability I do thing there are some things that we have yet to understand. But when we do understand them I believe (only an opinion btw!) that they will be due to natural phenomena.

I do however think that people can have advanced intuition that comes with years of practice, Jerome being one of them.

Is this doing it for real? I think so but I don't think it is "psychic" so to speak.

Maybe I'm wrong, I would love to be to be honest.

M
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Oct 9, 2009 08:39AM)
We ALL see into the future & if you deny that, you are just deluded...I shouldn't need to explain myself...

Nathan
Message: Posted by: David Numen (Oct 9, 2009 08:46AM)
It's been a long time since I took part in one of these discussions and not much seems to have changed since the last one...all I can say is that as far as I am concerned I believe in what I personally have experienced and whilst some of that may be a little too out there for some of the septics, at least my own performances, my own beliefs and my own decisions on disclaimers are based on yown research and not blindly based on the beliefs of others (something both sides of the fence are guilty of but the septic side moe so it seems).
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 9, 2009 03:27PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-09 09:46, David Numen wrote:
It's been a long time since I took part in one of these discussions and not much seems to have changed since the last one...all I can say is that as far as I am concerned I believe in what I personally have experienced and whilst some of that may be a little too out there for some of the septics, at least my own performances, my own beliefs and my own decisions on disclaimers are based on yown research and not blindly based on the beliefs of others (something both sides of the fence are guilty of but the septic side moe so it seems).
[/quote]

I totally see your point!
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Oct 9, 2009 04:00PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-09 09:46, David Numen wrote:
... but the septic side ...[/quote]
OK, who is on the septic side? If it's my side, then that is a bunch of crap.

Bobby

Excuse me, Pyschic Samurai, I said I was leaving. I am doing so now.
Message: Posted by: JohnWells (Oct 9, 2009 09:36PM)
Setting aside the particular thing we are discussing and turning to the more general, there are a few observations I would make:

Skepticism (over and against what the late Marcello Truzzi called pseudo skepticism) is, at heart a philosophical methodology rather than a philosophy per se. The epoche, a disciplined doubt-witholding assent as a means of finding truth, was intended to lead, if not to intuitive adequacy about the nature of things, at least to apodictic certainty of how things must be on the basis of reason, the rigorous development of the simple notion of non-contradiction-that a thing cannot be and not be at the same time in the same respect.
Reason, understood this way, is not an artificial framework we impose on reality, but a cogent, consistent development of the basic assumption that we can perceive (the combined actions of sensing and minding, minding being those processes expressed in articulate speech)the world as it really is, and that it is a useful assumption to believe that we can perceive the world as it really is, to a point.
Scientific (rather Scientistic) (pseudo)Skeptic-ism is simply a holdover of the English Empiricism of the 18th century. It ignores, or perhaps doesn't understand, Descartes, Kant, Husserl, among others, who have shown that pure Empiricism is inherently flawed. To blithely assert that all mentalists are tricksters because no paranormal occurences are possible is, in many cases, a vast overconfidence in the purely material view of the universe, and, more to the point, not a sign of a thinking mind, but of one settled in an opinion.
While the doxic modalities of opinions are part of human thinking, the possibility of acheiving genuine knowledge about the states of things is only present to minds still engaging in inquiry. I posit that the nay-sayers on this board, far from being free thinkers, have in fact stopped thinking about these things, and thus, have no place in an active discussion intended to expand the confines of what we know.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 9, 2009 10:23PM)
Had to put on my thinking cap for that one ...BUT IT WAS WORTH IT :)
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Oct 9, 2009 10:35PM)
Our teacher at school used to use incredibly long, difficult-to-understand words which used to frustrate the living daylights out of us!

One day we approached him and begged him to use simpler language so we could understand him better. His response was, smilingly, "You come up with me!"

Nice post JohnWells, although I think that I need to "come up to you" in some parts of your post in order to understand it better! :)

Kam
Message: Posted by: JohnWells (Oct 9, 2009 11:23PM)
Though I would note that only three of the words in the post should have been unfamiliar to the average reader, epoche-which I define in the post, apodictic-a technical term used because it would be unfamiliar and, incidently, support my assertion, that pseudo-skeptics while making what are, essentially, philosophical claims (one can't know empirically or intuitively-in the proper sense-whether a claim about something inherently unobserveable is true rendering any assertions about such things philosophical statements rather than statements of fact), are, typically, not very good philosophers, and doxic modalities, a term deriving from the discipline of phenomenology indicationg the cogency and consistency of one's opinions.
Message: Posted by: DT3 (Oct 9, 2009 11:46PM)
Thanks for this thread PsiSam.

I won't go into my feelings on this. I coined the phrase back in 1942. Just the same, here's someone doing it for real for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NoB5MJSZy4

Dt3
Message: Posted by: burst (Oct 10, 2009 12:25AM)
Oh, neat! I enjoy that thoroughly!
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Oct 10, 2009 10:11AM)
Oh, that was soooooo worth it! Just awesome!

Nathan
Message: Posted by: Logan Five (Oct 10, 2009 04:16PM)
I think that a true message from your inner guidance ( intuition ) will be one that is both practical and wise. I do this a lot in my readings. There is a difference between the voice of the ego and a true intuitive voice.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Oct 10, 2009 04:40PM)
I have only recently chance upon, or by chance been directed, to this forum; and am not sure whether to plunge in or merely wade through. I sense, more than intuitively, several hidden agendas (or in the case or some ‘nay-sayers’ agendum) drawn from previous discussions, forums, sites and forays. I had decided to converse off-list with several here who seem to have some congruency of thought but have not received any ready reply. Perhaps the players of this game are inclusive to some game of which I am unawares. None the less, I have experiences and insight to share on the issues at hand (or mind), especially those that appear to be incomplete or fringed with fallacy. In short, I do not “believe” that “doing the real thing” is possible, but “know” that it is not only possible but controllable. I have saved peoples lives by applying techniques that many would consider paranormal, but to me are as normal as scratching an itch. More importantly, I have aided thousands of people by knowing what they wish to say but can’t, and by finding a way to reveal their own truths in a manner they can accept.

The problem of joining in here is the amount of equivocation over basic terms essential to cogent discourse, and I wonder if this forum is the proper place to pursue such weighty issues. My experience is that any Internet based discussion is so “fraught with peril” that one finds himself either singing to a choir or suffering from an onslaught of despair having little to do with the actual theme. So, perhaps someone could appraise this late-comer of the likelihood that this thread will go anywhere except in circles.

In more simple terms – is there a better place to discuss these things? Is there a better way to discuss them that will avoid acrimony and personal attacks? Is there a reason why I should be here? Maybe it will even be fun.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 10, 2009 06:01PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-10 00:46, Don Theo III wrote:
Thanks for this thread PsiSam.

I won't go into my feelings on this. I coined the phrase back in 1942. Just the same, here's someone doing it for real for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NoB5MJSZy4

Dt3
[/quote]

I'm from the Seattle area and this guy hit it RIGHT ON !!!!!!!!!

SECOND AT BAT ... FIRST HOME RUN ... THREE AND ONE PITCH ... EXACT LOCATION!!!!!!

See .... I told you it could be done :)
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Oct 10, 2009 06:04PM)
Funsway

I would be personally interested in your thoughts on this

Any PMs will be assuredly responded to. Maybe PM is the best forum for attack-less and frank discussion

Kam
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 10, 2009 06:12PM)
I think the attacking has been minimal. I feel that for once we are safe. Or at least until they begin testing the waters again :)
I have another example that I will share soon, and I hope others do too.

I also think a statement by Jay Are is worth looking into. I liked it quite a bit.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Oct 10, 2009 06:54PM)
For 'real' mystical fun then, read the story at

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=334109&forum=32&4
Message: Posted by: funsway (Oct 11, 2009 05:29PM)
Here is a true story that sort of applies.

CHINESE PAINTINGS
I knew that my younger brother Jon had inherited some ‘things Chinese’ from his mother-in-law. I had already received a couple of small painting and some bookends from her estate years ago – when she had gone into a nursing home. When I visited his Nevada home a week ago, I was not prepared for the incredible paintings, nick-nacks and furniture – nor the story of how they came to her.

She was working in China in 1947 as single 25 year old woman. With the change of political regime and the rise of Mao, all foreign nationals were give three weeks to leave the country. So Hazel crated up her personal items including various items she had picked up as decorations – hardly a collector or thought of value, but many families were leaving the country and prices had been good.

Then the rules changed – any one not traveling within 24 hours would be arrested! The only passage she could secure was on the Trans-Siberian Railway, with only one suitcase. Everything was abandoned in labeled wooden crates in the house she had rented. In a reverse adventure of Ingrid Bergman in “inn of the Sixth Happiness”, Hazel traveled from Mongolia to Vienna – alone. The rest of her life with a special husband, international business consultant could fill a book also, but this is about Chinese paintings. (I think he was CIA).

In 1992, with a change in the Chinese attitude about dealing with the Western world, Hazel received a magickal surprise. Her crates arrived! No shipping charges – unopened – no damage – no explanation. Not a gift either, probably – just an efficiency imbedded in the oriental mind, and perhaps Communism – or a desire to make peace with the world.

We do not always need answers.
Message: Posted by: entity (Oct 12, 2009 12:29PM)
To me, being a student of human nature means what it says -- I study the way that human beings behave under a variety of circumstances. It's been an interest of mine all my life, and something I became more involved in during my university years.

- entity
Message: Posted by: funsway (Oct 12, 2009 01:11PM)
Rather than 'benefit' the use of such a gift must relate to potential 'harm', methinks. This also is subjective, of course, but consider that during a demonstration you have this 'desired' flash of "real mind reading." You have violated a person's privacy and mental seclusion. If that person is the one voluteering for the trick you might have less cause for concern, but there is an ethical consideration either way. Then there is consideration of what to do with the information so revealed. What if it relates to a health issue or a crime?

Such considerations should be made before beginning the demonstration. One might view that any gift comes with some responsibility, but here you are dealing with someone's life, not just a game for entertainment. When you speak of 'real' mental work you must be 'real' about everything. On the plus side, it is possible that only those with a selfless and beneficient nature might have the experiences (yeah, right!).

If you gather that this is not hypothetical with me you are correct. As with any experiment involving people ask yourself the question, "Am I prepared for success?"
Message: Posted by: Dreadnought (Oct 12, 2009 01:21PM)
In my mentalism only shows, I always include my Human Lie Detector routine, where I rely solely on my training in kinesic interviewing and interpretation and oral and written statement analysis to determine who is lying and who is telling the truth. This never fails to get a big pop from the audience.
Message: Posted by: Dreadnought (Oct 12, 2009 01:44PM)
For me, and others using other methods, it is knowing that you can do something a bit more special than others claiming to use the same method but really aren't because they are using a "trick." So personally, when I rely on my ability alone, yes, the end does justify the means.

Peace.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Oct 12, 2009 07:06PM)
In order "to do real stuff' you have to act, not just get brain farts.

I have experiences in this. In the early 60's I performed "Contact Mindreading" demonstrations rather frequently, basically Helstromism with other methods learned from Arnold Furst by onservation and coaching. In about a third of these experiments I had some 'insight' or 'premonition' of the complete outcome not accountable from muscle reading or non-verbal clues. All authors I read on the subject (not the recent ones) suggested taking the risk and following the insight rather thna continuing the experiment, noting that your success rate would drop but that the rewards would be greater. Hannusen believed in actual 'far sight' but did not attempt to create it in a performance, but would act on insight.

Personally, I feel that we pick up a lot of clues from the audience that we are not consciously aware of, plus are able to learn patterns of behavior for certain people the suggests a selction of particular tests. However, it is possible that one can increase his adept or adroit sensitivity with exposure. Whether or not you should attempt such an experiment during a show is another matter. So, I would say:

I have many personal and observed experience I can share here of a "real" nature. Convince me this is the time and place to share them.
Message: Posted by: JohnWells (Oct 13, 2009 11:50AM)
Dave, come back!
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 13, 2009 12:17PM)
Back injury and a 4 month old "Fullback" have slowed me down considerably (Not to mention the POWERBALL thing)

Here is an example of doing it for "REAL"..
No tap dancing .... Just .... IN YOUR FACE PREDICTIONS :)

Done before the event and in full view of everyone (Not that sealed predictions are not just as valid)
My son Matt has played in dozens of bands (Mine include .. Played drums for a festival of 40,000 once)

A while back he joined a band from a small town in the backwoods of Oregon boasting only one stoplight and less than 2,000 folks spread out all over the hills.

The Band was called BROADWAY CALLS :)

I saw them play in front less than 30 kids in a warehouse ..

My Super Intuition, Psychic Sight, or whatever you want to call it, kicked in and I made the prediction that this band would "Make It"!!!!!

I went so far as to post the prediction on the largest Pseudo-Skeptic forum in the world (They didn't like it one bit!!!!! (They even threatened my children.....but that's a different story)

The Prediction was blatantly IN THEIR FACE!!!! FOR ALL TO SEE IT COMMING.

The band went from a tiny basement to the cover of AMERICAN MUSIC PRESS !!!!

Also... A two page spread in Kerrrang magazine in the UK and a new CD on a great label and a European Tour with The Offspring while playing at the Reading and Leeds festivals there.
They are currently on tour in the US, playing 200 dates per year.
Their CD has gotten good reviews in virtually every Pop/Punk magazine in existence.

Three kids from a small backwoods town :)

If it's some kind of Magic Trick, I bet I could sell it to every band in the world :)

It was an Intuitive Prediction that came true !!!!!!

(I make less than 20 predictions a year and this was the only one involving a band)
Just in case you argue that I make zillions of predictions .... I don't!
Message: Posted by: Dreadnought (Oct 13, 2009 12:59PM)
It could very well be proud papa, but it could very well be gut instinct. A lot of people write off that gut feeling when it fact it is pretty accurate, it is a survival instinct. It's what tells you something is wrong, out of place, out of sorts; it's what causes the hair on the arm to rise and gives you that chill up your spine for no reason when you may be discerning or have been discerning something.

Gut instinct is what leads a homicide detective to say, "It has all the hallmarks of suicide but it isn't, just give me an extra day." Or, " I don't think mamma and daddy are being completely honest about their missing or suddenly dead child."

Gut instinct is what tells you whatever you are about to do may be a good, bad or other wise move.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Nov 15, 2009 06:15PM)
[quote]
On 2009-10-12 20:06, funsway wrote:
In order "to do real stuff' you have to act, not just get brain farts.

I have many personal and observed experience I can share here of a "real" nature. Convince me this is the time and place to share them.
[/quote]

I think far too many have 'acted' and indeed do, but alas it's remains only an act.
And I absolutely do NOT believe that this is the time or the place for this. There just has to be other chat rooms.

Go in peace.
bobser
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 15, 2009 06:23PM)
I don't know but we all have weird occurences. The other week I was on a bus on my way into town for a few pints. For some reason I was thinking about two people Ive not seen in 20 years and the other about 12 years. The bus driver was the brother of one and I bumped into the other in town. Coincedence? Who knows. I also "predicted" Jacksons death during a casual conversation.

It was when he was doing those dodgy press engagements just before the tour was about to start. I said that it would never happen and that Jackson didn't have long to live. Ok it could all be coincedence but then again?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Nov 15, 2009 09:23PM)
I've never done precognitive or distance viewing experiments 'real' during a performance.
Privately, on the other hand, I have had the odd 'premonition' or dream that has later hit on an event either occurring at the time in another locale or later in time. What it means I leave open to conjecture. My parents, siblings and recent ancestors have had similar experiences. I did notice that the frequency of these phenomena increased when I was practicing self-hypnosis or meditation.
My wife gets occasional flashes that turn out to be startlingly accurate.
Is it psychic? A glitch in time-space relationships?
I don't pretend to know, though I find it interesting.
She also 'senses' that I am a channeler. I'll refrain from elaborating as to why.

I know we're often on opposite sides of the fence, Slim, but the fence is actually a razor-thin one; while our conclusions might differ here and there, we both enjoy the speculative journey.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Nov 16, 2009 03:05AM)
For what it's worth they say that psychics can only look into the past whilst mediums can also see the futuere. Mind you, it's normally mediums that say that. From the field of psychology however their argument to this day is still that it's all coincidence and that the human ego desperately wants to feel it is more than it is, suspecting greatness lies within itself, totally aware of it's delusion and the fact that it is mereley a lumbering robot.
Message: Posted by: Dick Christian (Nov 16, 2009 06:51AM)
Why would anyone who could do it "for real" be wasting their time on a web forum for magicians who, by definition, fake it?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 16, 2009 06:57AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 04:05, bobser wrote:
For what it's worth they say that psychics can only look into the past whilst mediums can also see the futuere. Mind you, it's normally mediums that say that. From the field of psychology however their argument to this day is still that it's all coincidence and that the human ego desperately wants to feel it is more than it is, suspecting greatness lies within itself, totally aware of it's delusion and the fact that it is mereley a lumbering robot.
[/quote]

An argument is just an argument though it doesn't make anything conclusive. And in my case whenever I have had these coincedences it has never fostered any notion of greatness. It has only had me wonder if we can sense things sometimes. I know everybody has them. But wasn't Silva weho stated the more you focus in on these things the more coincedences you have?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Nov 16, 2009 08:06AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 07:51, Dick Christian wrote:
Why would anyone who could do it "for real" be wasting their time on a web forum for magicians who, by definition, fake it?
[/quote]

Why would someone who can really play baseball play a baseball video game?

Axel Hellstrohm practiced muscle reading as an entertainer, but maintained that, after years of doing this, he began to get flashes of actual telepathy.
Did he? We don't know.

What we DO know is that many practitioners of illusion are also interested in magick or paranormal phenomena. Perhaps some have 'talents' others don't, and occasionally test them in what is otherwise a program of illusion.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Nov 16, 2009 08:58AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 07:51, Dick Christian wrote:
Why would anyone who could do it "for real" be wasting their time on a web forum for magicians who, by definition, fake it?
[/quote]

To learn. Being able to do anything better than most means that you can help people. But to help people you have to understand where they are coming from. If a person comes to you with a problem you may have the answer from education, experience, intuition, psychic adeptness -- whatever. The key is how to get them to accept the solution and follow the steps necessary for success. That requires trust, and if another trusts you because you are a fake medium, seer, or performing mentalist -- so be it. Sad, perhaps, but a measure of the world we live in. We are all "more able" in some way than most. If you want to help people you 'hang out' where the need is. If you wanted to knowif your ability was 'real' -- where else to evaluate that ability than in comparison with those who fake it?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Nov 16, 2009 09:07AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 04:05, bobser wrote:
For what it's worth they say that psychics can only look into the past whilst mediums can also see the futuere. [/quote]

there is another, more ancient view, that any person's past holds a key to their future chnaes of getting what they wish out of life -- that prejudice, values and decsion making bias will limit your future options. Therefore, an effective 'seer' can predict your future by exploring your past, helping resolve discordance/guilt/misinformation, etc. and allow/assist you in the discovery of a future course you can commit to. Then it comes true! The key is to not "predict" anything, but to assist another to restrict their goals to thing they can/will actually do. A competent Seer can be 100% successful in apparently predicting the future by only dealing with people of integrity capable of following through on a life plan. Find what they want and eliminate the self-doubt issues standing in the way. Nothing magic or psychic about the process though.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Nov 16, 2009 09:47AM)
Mindpunisher said: 'An argument is just an argument though it doesn't make anything conclusive'.
That might be true of a bad argument, which to be fair you do a lot of. But a good argument can often come to conclusion.

Now then 'funsway'. When you say: 'The key is to not "predict" anything, but to assist another to restrict their goals to thing they can/will actually do' I find my toes curling. That's what all the fake mediums and psychics do when they CAN'T PREDICT ANYTHING!
And when you say: 'A competent Seer can be 100% successful in apparently predicting the future by only dealing with people of integrity capable of following through on a life plan' my toes start curling again! It's kinda like God will heal you if you're good. And if you don't get healed then you're not good or you just don't REALLY believe enough in God ( the favourite of all Christian teachers & churches). It's everything I dislike about the pseudo seer.
Sorry, bet you're actually a nice guy.
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Nov 16, 2009 12:33PM)
In his defense, boser (and I'm sure funsway can speak for himself), he DID say "nothing psychic or magic about the process though."

I think where he's going with this might be along the lines of, 'The best way to predict the future is to invent it/create it' and it's a simple matter to 'see' when someone will follow through with a plan of action to attain their goals. It's not a prediction per se, but the ONLY result possible and probable when someone is committed to change. Intentional, committed, deliberate action and hard work will produce results any way we look at it.

I could be mistaken...

-J
Message: Posted by: Solo.kuryakin (Nov 16, 2009 03:25PM)
If all the tricky stuff won't work, I sometimes use the real methods (there are other ways to go as well, but sometimes I want a direct hit). E.g. reading a word someone is barely thinking of. If a peek etc. fails and I really want a hit I use real (in a good sense they a real - but I won't discuss this here) methods. They are published, they are studied, they have their explanations. And even more: they often hit quite well.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 16, 2009 04:02PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 10:47, bobser wrote:
Mindpunisher said: 'An argument is just an argument though it doesn't make anything conclusive'.
That might be true of a bad argument, which to be fair you do a lot of. But a good argument can often come to conclusion.


[/quote]

Im not surprised you find my arguments to be bad since they consistently expose you as being the **** that you are. They are not really arguments since that presupposes an opposition. Something you are incapable of.

A good argument doesn't come to a conclusion it comes to an agreement. However you need to understand the concepts being discussed in the first place for that to happen and this where you often struggle.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Nov 16, 2009 04:32PM)
Thanks TT2 for seeing how simple it is. Whether it is a financial analyst using a spreadsheet, a psychologist with a yellow pad, a consultant with clipboard or a seer with a bunch of casting stones, the process is exactly the same (if ethical). You get some trial goals, check the history to find out the obsticles, remove the barriers, instill confidence and set new workable goals. The key to future success can always be found in past mistakes or misperceptions. The ideal situation is allowing the 'seeker' to "discover" the solution for themsleves. SInce they "own" the solution they will follow through. That hardly resembles what fake psychic do, and I have no idea where religeous prejudice crept in

Bobster. How you can have such heated feelings over any short statement on the Internet is beyond me -- every intelligent person knowing it is fraut with misunderstanding. If you ever bother to read one of my books you will realize that they are written to protect people from false and pseudo psychics, priests, lawyers, psychologist, marketers and politicians. If I charged for any Soothing I do I could be harmed by your weird accusations which are clearly meant to harm (check the legal defintion). However, I never charge for any personal counselling or divination process I engage in, even though a good "Sounding Process" takes about eleven hours. Not only am I nice, but I am extremely effective as a Seer when I chose to, which is rarely -- because it is so diffuclt to find anyone willing to do the work to make their life better. Instead, everyone what to take credit for what works, and know whom to blame if it doesn't -- and you seem a fine example of that. If you don't understand something -- try asking questions. For you I will try and simplify --

Anyone can increase the propensity for having a greater say over their fulture by removing all discordance between their past perceptions and working values. The future is very predictable -- if you keep on doing what doesn't work you will get the same poor results. If you change the way you think about a problem, eliminate the false perceptions about yourself, create goals that are congruent with what you are willing to do, and get some motivation, you can get the future you desire. All a good Seer (in any form) does is guide you through the steps. If you make a prediction for yourself, you can make it happen. Pseudo Seers attempt to short-cut the process or inject their ego into it. There are plenty of them out there -- go get 'em. A true Seer doesn't make predictions because he don't have to -- the Seeker claims his own future.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 17, 2009 01:37PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 09:06, Steve_Mollett wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-16 07:51, Dick Christian wrote:
Why would anyone who could do it "for real" be wasting their time on a web forum for magicians who, by definition, fake it?
[/quote]

Why would someone who can really play baseball play a baseball video game?

Axel Hellstrohm practiced muscle reading as an entertainer, but maintained that, after years of doing this, he began to get flashes of actual telepathy.
Did he? We don't know.

What we DO know is that many practitioners of illusion are also interested in magick or paranormal phenomena. Perhaps some have 'talents' others don't, and occasionally test them in what is otherwise a program of illusion.
[/quote]

Great Post !!!!!
Almost all of those that master MR (Not that many) claim to get real experiences with telepathy.