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Topic: The Godfather's, "Unfaithful Force"
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Nov 2, 2009 10:18AM)
Vinny is at it again and brings this months [b]All ACCESS[/b] contribution to you as the [b]Unfaithful Force[/b]. Check it here and click the "7th Box"

http://vinnymarini.com/download/sub.html

It's yet another beauty of bold in your face card manipulation from the Wizard of Cards. It's really not hard to do but man does it fool. :D

As with all Forces, this one allows you to bring into play the card you want as an effect or as part of any other routine needing such a move, but this one is NEW and nickel slick. ;)

There are a lot of Forces out there but check out The Godfather's latest and the Force will truly be with you. ;)

http://www.VinnyMarini.com
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Nov 2, 2009 04:02PM)
Vinny: Excellent; can't follow it. One thing did bother me,aside from being fooled 'cause I'm a professional proofreader, can't help it - you don't "rifle" (the "i" pronounced like "I"), you "riffle" (the "i" pronounced as in "it") down. Best - HARRY L.
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 04:12PM)
Harry,

That's just the same "Hop" move you used in your "Invisible Pass" routine. The move is old and goes back to the tables.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 2, 2009 04:34PM)
OT you are correct and Harry gets full credit in my credits section. I only added a convincer to harry move./
.The Hop is avery old gamblers move this is why I mention why I did not think of this some 20 0r 30 years ago
another reason for calling it the Unfaithfull force and not the Hop force because magicians would know. see even Harry was fooled lol.
there really is nothing new in magic just maybe new ideas./
vinny
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Nov 2, 2009 04:39PM)
Now we are correcting pronunciation? Who cares? I understand if someone spells it wrong, but the way they say it? What if I said, you can' say 'cause, it is spoken BEcause? Im sure someone of Mr.Martinis stature knows the word and has heard it several thousand times.
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 04:41PM)
Maybe. A lot of us were playing with the move as a force back in the '80s. The problem was one of motivating actions. There were one or two good solutions back then. For the most part, however, the action seems to serve better as a control.
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 04:44PM)
I guess, kcg5, you can excuse sloppy language if you wish, but I don't see a reason to. To "rifle" the deck is actually a different word and has a different meaning than to "riffle" the deck, but if you're okay with the imprecision, than you have absolutely every riot to be.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 2, 2009 04:46PM)
OP K--- m- a--
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 04:50PM)
Well said, Vinny. What brought that on? Marion is the OP here, and I thought he was promoting you.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Nov 2, 2009 04:53PM)
Tomato, tomato
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 04:54PM)
"Let's call the whole thing off?"
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Nov 2, 2009 05:18PM)
You know, OP, "no good deed goes unpunished". You try to help someone and you get a kcg5 putting you down. Nothing new - I just had to answer a silliness of his in another thread. Again, not unusual. There's rarely a thread that has to do with me in any way, that he doesn't spout some similar nonsensical silliness. Of course, what he meant here (I think; never really know with him) is "Tomato, Tomahto." But, again as usual, it's difficult to know what the h@ll he's talking about - I wonder if HE always knows. Hey, Vinnie, the word is "riffle" not "rifle." And you did the hop beautifully. Best - HARRY L.
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 05:23PM)
OP...are you guys referring to me? If that's the case, double to Vinny: What are you on about?
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Nov 2, 2009 05:23PM)
Harry's HOP along with adds and touches by Vinny and Jack Carpenter make it a sweeeeeeeeet move!
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 05:24PM)
There are a couple of people who can blow your mind with it even if you know the move.
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 2, 2009 05:30PM)
That's actually a love song, you know, about two people deciding to look past their differences and refueling their romance.
Message: Posted by: MickeyPainless (Nov 2, 2009 06:30PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-02 18:24, Open Traveller wrote:
There are a couple of people who can blow your mind with it even if you know the move.
[/quote]

Vinny taught me his handling of the HOP a couple months ago and I've since got it by 2 of my sharpest eyed critics successfully for a couple weeks now! I'm still working on Jack's convincer but it's coming along!
Message: Posted by: Double J (Nov 2, 2009 06:54PM)
Harry can dance with the best of them...
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 3, 2009 05:02AM)
A Rose by any other name is sill a Rose.
but this has nothing to do about the forcing technique,
OT if I had performed the force to music you would probably found fault with the choice of music,
next time please give a honest review of the effect if you do not like I say so.
vinny
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 3, 2009 08:25AM)
Vinny,

You're overreacting. I don't dislike the move. I love the move and use it frequently. I only mention that as a force, it's been done before. By a lot of guys. At the top of the field. A long time ago. It's no aspersion on you for someone to say that it's been done before. If this takes the edge off your enthusiasm, well, all I can say is that you're not the first person to have been scooped...it's happened to all of us.
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 3, 2009 08:52AM)
Michael Skinner had some beautiful touches on this idea. Done very slowly. I've got about 8 hours of Michael sitting down doing magic non stop in a living room. Amazing man...

J
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 3, 2009 08:56AM)
Vinny,
Give it a try with cutting the cards towards the spectator, instead of taking some off and bringing them back. This crossing of the hands will justify the the right hand coming back to deal the card. Right now you bring the cards back and it seems like the left hand could thumb of the top card easily. With the cards cut in front it isn't really natural or possible to deal the top left hand card with the left thumb you need that right hand to come back.

What do you think?

J
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 3, 2009 09:33AM)
Jay that's a excellent idea. this is what magic is all about trying different things and making them better.
if you have Skinner doing this can you please put up a demo for us I'm very interested. OT I am not claiming any originality just that in all my years I have never seen the hop used as a force and I can not find any crediting on this. You also state some big names well please say who so I can check out your references..

vinny
Ps I am not overreacting to anything I just don't like any nit picking about how I pronounced a word this is bush imo
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 3, 2009 09:51AM)
Vinny,
As I do not believe I have any right to upload anything of Michael's I am afraid I won't be able to do that Vinny. I am happy to talk about it though. It's also on VHS which I need to convert to DVD. I have approx 40-50 vhs tapes of various magic specials from the 70s to now, underground tapes, etc. All need to be put on DVD.

Let's see how that goes and if anyone know who has rights to the Michael Skinner Estate I would love to know how to get in touch.

J
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 3, 2009 10:40AM)
Jay thank you for the PM..
We as magicians have had to get our inspirations form some I have always felt that if you like a idea try and use it or inprove on it if this is possible and sometimes this is not possible .
In the past I have always gave my material away for for free.Now just because I ask for a small fee to keep my site going I get all kinds of flack form thoes that contribute nothing the the magic community .
by giving my material for free I have cheepend my magic it is my own fault I have not heard any thing negitive form all access members except sometime poor audio then again no members have come foward to back what I do in recent times.
you know what? I'm not going to give the farm away and who the Hell cares .
vinny
Message: Posted by: Dorian Rhodell (Nov 3, 2009 10:48AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-03 10:51, Jay Mahon wrote:
Vinny,
As I do not believe I have any right to upload anything of Michael's I am afraid I won't be able to do that Vinny. I am happy to talk about it though. It's also on VHS which I need to convert to DVD. I have approx 40-50 vhs tapes of various magic specials from the 70s to now, underground tapes, etc. All need to be put on DVD.

Let's see how that goes and if anyone know who has rights to the Michael Skinner Estate I would love to know how to get in touch.

J
[/quote]

Hi Jay,

I think oyou would need to get in touch with Geno Munari, founder of the Houdini's Magic Shop chain. He released 1 VHS and two DVD's of Skinner when he was younger. Fantastic material to watch. Michael was the best.

Take care,

Dorian Rhodell
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 3, 2009 10:50AM)
Thanks Dorian,

I will keep that in mind.

J
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 3, 2009 11:09AM)
Any one who purchased my all access thinks the material that is tought is not original and is un happy with the purchase I will refund the money no questions asked. so far there has not been one person that was dis satasified.
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 3, 2009 11:48AM)
Vin,

I was just explaining to kcg5 why Harry might have wanted to point out the incorrect usage of the word (and, it gave me the opportunity to make a pun). In practically every one of your posts on the Café, you misspell, misuse or mistype something. To point them all out would lengthen any thread by a factor of three, and yet I've not once brought any of them to your attention. Tell Harry Lorayne to kiss your ass, not me. Or, alternately, rather than hurling insults, find a better way to conduct your discourse.

Jay, Michael Skinner's touches on the move, particularly the squaring touch, make it, in my opinion. Handled the way he did, the move becomes truly invisible from all angles and perfectly deceptive.

Dorian, Geno bought everything he could of Michael's in an estate sale, but Michael has a surviving sister, and she may have any existing rights. However, I don't think she has the interest. Come to think of it, I'm not certain if it was an estate sale or a public sale held by the court. Geno would know.

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 3, 2009 12:04PM)
OT I am a teribble one finger typer no excuse, but I do try my best to present good magic.
This is why I said I could not believe I did not think of using the hop as a force in all the years I have performed it.
second if you had a problem with my tying errors or misused words
the proper thing to do was to pm me not call me out on the forum like harry did.
a good person would do this
vinny
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Nov 3, 2009 12:11PM)
Hey, how did I get into the middle of this? I certainly meant no disrespect. I love Vinny's work, and as I said above, it's a great use of the Hop, and Vinny does it beautifully. I know about the Hop, of course, AND HE STILL FOOLED ME THE FIRST TIME I WATCHED THE VIDEO. I was really and simply trying to be helpful with the "rifle"/"riffle" thing. Misspelling here on posts is unimportant - we type quickly, etc., and I make those typos, too. It's when and if working for lay audiences, I just thought it'd be helpful if he knew that the word is "riffle." Didn't want him to be embarrassed, etc. Please, I repeat, was just trying to helpful. And also to repeat - great job with that force, Vinny. Best - HARRY.
Message: Posted by: Carlo (Nov 3, 2009 12:35PM)
Looks beautiful, Vinny. I know what you're doing but I don't see it happening.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 3, 2009 03:50PM)
I have no way of knowing the force is old 9 I my self have never seen it done before. but this doesn't mean it has never been done.
I can't read every book or watch every DVD, I am only speaking from experience..
If Skinner did this, I will check it out at the Magic Castle library.

I think I will take a break from the Café, too much bs going on, I can't stand it anymore.
Message: Posted by: Alan M (Nov 3, 2009 08:06PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-03 13:35, Carlo wrote:
Looks beautiful, Vinny. I know what you're doing but I don't see it happening.
[/quote]

Vinny taught me the Hop (as a control) a few years ago. Needless to say I was completely fooled, but even after he showed me the work, it was still completely deceptive when he did it. It was exactly as Carlo said: "I know what you're doing but I don't see it happening."

I look forward to playing around with the Hop as a force. Thanks for introducing me to and fooling me with this move, Vinny.

Alan M.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Nov 3, 2009 10:38PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-03 16:50, vinsmagic wrote:
I think I will take a break from the Café too much bs going on I cant stand it anymore
[/quote]

That would be an absolute shame. You're too valuable here to be lost over such foolishness. I hope you are kidding.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Nov 3, 2009 11:05PM)
I am so confused. Harry commented about a word, and vinny is ****ed at someone else. Wtf
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 3, 2009 11:16PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-03 16:50, vinsmagic wrote:
I have no way of knowing the force is old 9 I my self have never seen it done before. but this doesn't mean it has never been done.
I can't read every book or watch every DVD, I am only speaking from experience..
If Skinner did this, I will check it out at the Magic Castle library.

I think I will take a break from the Café, too much bs going on, I can't stand it anymore.
[/quote]
You're right- with so much being produced, and so much that has come before, it is impossible to check every reference. All anyone can ask is you did your best, checked the major sources, and asked several knowledgeable people for help.

No one can fault you for accidentally coming up with something that's been done before (it happens to all of us. Thanks Marlo).

[b]But[/b], we [b]can[/b] fault you for finding out it's not yours, being directed to the original sources, and then not checking them out or removing your video. That's not cool.

Ben
Message: Posted by: Rizzo (Nov 4, 2009 07:47AM)
Here we go.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Nov 4, 2009 10:43AM)
It's on
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 4, 2009 02:59PM)
I'm not trying to start anything or stir up trouble. You find out something isn't yours- take it down. Then check the sources. If it turns out it isn't yours, no harm no foul. If it turns out the sources don't exist, or they are sufficiently different, then re-post. You lost nothing by doing that, but you have a lot to lose by keeping the video up until you have done your due-diligence.

Best,
Ben
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 4, 2009 03:09PM)
Well,
I have to agree with Ben. But it seems that Vinny openly admits his ideas are not new. I suppose one of the problems I face is with naming these moves that aren't Vinny's. I'm sure we have all seen the youtube video of that guy doing a LOT of stuff from the Earnest Earick book. He says this is stuff from the Earick book then does it beautifully. He's not trying to sell it and I am sure he has changed small things, but he claims its not his just him performing someone else's moves and tricks. There is nothing wrong with that.

But to republish existing material without any noticeable difference, renaming it to look like your original idea and selling it... That doesn't add up to me. I think many on this forum are on the same page, and this is why Vinny often gets flack from members here.

J
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 4, 2009 03:35PM)
Ben and Jim both you guys are royal *****, I never claimed anything was mine, I give my credits on my site. Ask any one who is a member, I changed the name so magicians would not know it's the hop ..., so get your facts straight.
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 4, 2009 03:40PM)
You claim things you put up on your site are original. Am I wrong? Does that not imply it is yours. If you come up with something original it's considered yours...

If you don't tell magicians what it is and offer it for sale to trick them into not knowing what is your intention? Are you trying to fool them into purchasing something they might already know because you do it well? I suppose I could do a pass well, call it "On the Up and Up" control and sell it. But that would be wrong. Especially if people got fooled then realized they already knew what I was doing but were fooled by the name hoping for a new method. It had a new name...

J
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 4, 2009 04:21PM)
If you were not so cheap and spent the money for my all access you would see the control is not mine and I give proper crediting to Harry Lorayne, again the move is not mine.

The idea of the force is mine that I came up with independently as far as I know and I explain this. If this is Marlo's or anyone else's idea, I would gladly give the proper credit. And I stated I never seen anyone use it as a force and I did try to find it but no results. I even contacted Bill Goodwin at the Magic Castle Library to see if he could help (he is the librarian).
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 4, 2009 04:56PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-04 16:35, vinsmagic wrote:
Ben and Jim both you guys are royal *****, I never claimed anything was mine, I give my credits on my site. Ask any one who is a member, I changed the name so magicians would not know it's the hop ..., so get your facts straight.
[/quote]
Vinny,

Let me get my facts straight.

1. You are selling something.
2. You know it's not yours (the move or the application)
3. You give credit to Harry.
4. You changed the name.

Is this correct?
Ben
p.s.
I cannot believe that people still cannot understand that there is a distinction between their work and them as a person. Vinny, nowhere did I attack you, and I am offended by your comment. I have always been respectful and kind to you as a person. I simply don't like what you are doing here. I'm deeply upset by your comments.
Message: Posted by: Turk (Nov 4, 2009 05:48PM)
Alright, I'm sorry but..I'm confused.

Who exactly invented the "hop" move that Vinny is being criticized for "stealing"--or, at the very least, for not crediting?

Some say Marlo; some say Harry Lorayne; some say it is an old move and goes back to the tables (what ever that means).

It would certainly be helpful if a person (who suggests a move was invented earlier) would give the precise [i]primary source[/i] reference so that others can verify the claim as accurate (at least as to that date in time of the alleged creation). Right now, all we have are general anecdotal assertions with no way of being able to easily verify the claims. And, if the move is an "old table move" that goes back to the old-time gamblers, then what? Who get proper credit then?

Additionally, there are some moves so well known and so well used that crediting is no longer expected to be given--even if known. Is the "hop" move now in that category?

Are we now engaged in a "how many angels are currently dancing on the head of a pin" type of argument or distinction?

Before releasing this video, Vinny sent the effect out to a number of [i]very knowlegeable card magicians[/i] for comments and crediting references. It was one of them who advised Vinny that the move in question was a variation of "Harry Loraynes's "hop" move". (Hence, Vinny's credit to Harry Lorayne for the move.) In addition, Vinny iscontending that he changed the move slightly (no pun intended) both by using the move as a force [i]and[/i]by adding the "stuck out card" as a convincer. Hence, in totality, since Vinny added a variation to the move, he called it "The Unfaithful Force" and he did this in the same breath in which he credited Harry Lorayne for the "hop" move.

Instead of concentrating on the video that Vinny released and which Harry Lorayne highly praised (I think he might have even said it fooled him), are we now engaged in a "same-o same-o" verbal pi**ing contests by some of the perennial "your move is not original" chronic complainers who invent nothing but are quick to try to diminish the contribution of others here on the Café. I dunno; sometimes it certainly seems so. In any event, life goes on.

In sum, does anyone [i]actually[/i] know the actual original first use of the "hop" move? Is so, please give a [i]primary source[/i] citation to substantiate your claim (i.e., book and page number or name of video, etc.) so that your claim can be seriously evaluated.

Additionally, is the "hop" move one of those moves that is so widely known and performed by [i]knowledgeable[/i] magicians that no citation is reasonably to be expected.

Just, IMHO; your mileage may vary.

Thank you all.

Mike

P.S. It would also be helpful to have all those that are knocking the product state whether or not they are a subsciber of Vinny's All Access program and have seen the entire video first hand or whether or not they are going from hearsay information. I'd at least like to have the confidence in knowing that any such complainer has actually viewed the entire video. Such knowledge allows me to give greater weight to his claim(s).
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 4, 2009 06:10PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-04 18:48, Turk wrote:

Before releasing this video, Vinny sent the effect out to a number of [i]very knowledgeable card magicians[/i] for comments and crediting references. It was one of them who advised Vinny that the move in question was a variation of "Harry Loraynes's "hop" move". (Hence, Vinny's credit to Harry Lorayne for the move.) In addition, Vinny is contending that he changed the move slightly (no pun intended) both by using the move as a force [i]and[/i]by adding the "stuck out card" as a convincer. Hence, in totality, since Vinny added a variation to the move, he called it "The Unfaithful Force" and he did this in the same breath in which he credited Harry Lorayne for the "hop" move.
[/quote]
I didn't fault him for this- I think that's great. He came up with something, got help with the research and then gave credits appropriately, then released it. So far, so what?

Well, all that would be fine if his move was sufficiently different from other published versions. And, for a time, he thought it was. Now people have let him know that he missed something and he should check out the source. Rather then taking down the video until he was able to confirm the validity of these sources he started insulting people. When I explained, quite politely, what the problem was he told me I was an ***.

His response to the situation is the problem- I wasn't talking about the actual move. I hope that clarifies things.

Ben
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 4, 2009 06:28PM)
Where is the move used as a force ??? I GAVE PROPER CRFERDIT TO HARRY LORAYNE WHAT MORE DO YOU WAANt.. my all accesss runs for one year and the hop is just part of what I teach to the subscribers but how would you know you don,t subscribe you just make accusations . I also teach the Hop to force a several cards at once,
\ evey one of my posts you are on it like dog **** trying to put my work down.
the hop is tought on Harrys video and for all to use .
I contacted many well know magicians that subscribe to the Café showing them my work
you through out Marlo's Name ( thank you marlo) big deaL SHOW WME WHERE HE USED THE HOP AS A FORCE AND SHOW ME WHERE HE CREATED IT THEN I WILL TAKE THE DEMO DOWN


\
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 4, 2009 06:35PM)
Vinny,

People gave you the name of the source. YOU have to go out and get it. If it turns out the source they provided doesn't have the move in question, or if it's still sufficiently different, then you're in the gold.

As far as I'm concerned I have nothing more to say and I'm done with this thread (unless someone forces me to come back and say something else).

Do whatever the hell you want.
Ben
Message: Posted by: Jack of Spades (Nov 4, 2009 06:36PM)
In fairness to Vinny here, it seems to me that he is putting forward an application of the hop that he genuinely thinks has not been done before. If so, I think we have to say "fair play" to him. (I actually really like the move!). Do we know for sure if anyone has previously published such an application? If not, then it's a little premature to be harsh with Vinny. I think (hope) he would change the offering if he found out that other credits were required. I feel that Vinny is being a little picked upon here... unjustly? If I'm wrong, or have missed something, I'll happily be put right on this.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 4, 2009 06:40PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-04 19:36, Jack of Spades wrote:
In fairness to Vinny here, it seems to me that he is putting forward an application of the hop that he genuinely thinks has not been done before. If so, I think we have to say "fair play" to him. (I actually really like the move!). Do we know for sure if anyone has previously published such an application? If not, then it's a little premature to be harsh with Vinny. I think (hope) he would change the offering if he found out that other credits were required. I feel that Vinny is being a little picked upon here... unjustly? If I'm wrong, I'll accept it.
[/quote]

Page one of this thread mentions the skinner dvd, and other sources were also mentioned. The question is- has vinny looked at them yet?

Well, my "I'm done with this thread" stance didn't last long!

Ben
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 4, 2009 06:43PM)
Jack that is my point as I stated I had never seen the hop used as a force and I did my best to find out I came up with nothing, if it is published of course I will be very happy to give proper crediting.
I also teach the hop move using it as a multiple force or mult control with the cards. I g ive the crediting on all access not in the performance
I was atacked saying it was not mine I never claimed it was
Message: Posted by: Open Traveller (Nov 4, 2009 07:28PM)
Guys,

I didn't mean to start all this. I mentioned that the idea of using the hop as a force had been done because I thought Vinny and others would like to know. That was the end of that, in my mind. I made no claim that his use of the move was poor, shouldn't be sold, needs to be pulled or anything like that. I just assumed that someone would like to know, particularly in light of Marion's initial hype of the move, that it's not [i]really[/i] new.

I don't remember anyone in this thread saying that Skinner did the hop as a force. Only that he did the hop, and specifically in the context of Harry Lorayne's routine with it. All I put forth is that this idea (of using the hop as a force) was kicked around. I don't know that it's ever been published.

Back then, the idea was bandied about, but no one thought that much about it. No one rushed to print. No one thought of selling it or lecturing on it. It was just another idea in an exciting time when ideas were continually being kicked around. This is a different era. Maybe its time has come. If Vinny wants to put it out, maybe it's okay that he does. I've certainly never suggested otherwise.

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (Nov 4, 2009 07:37PM)
*pats Vinny on the back
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 4, 2009 07:40PM)
Train I see you just read about magic try performing some time, you might learn something, instead of receiting others.
Message: Posted by: Double J (Nov 4, 2009 07:41PM)
I've seen 'The Hop' performed by Harry and originally thought it was a great move... Then a friend showed me a variation that I liked even better. This is the first time I've seen it done as a force and I thought it was great.

Vinny, it was good thinking on your part to come up with that force. Harry Lorayne doesn't seem to have a problem with it, in fact, He's praising you for it. Harry's Great!

The way I see it, you've went further than most in trying to find out if it was already published. I say, leave it up, share it, until someone proves otherwise. Till then, I'll know it as (Vinny Marini's 'Unfaithful Force' ).
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 4, 2009 07:46PM)
OT

It has no baring on my assessment of how Vinny handled the situation. I didn't say that those sources DID or DID NOT have the move on it. I didn't say the move was or wasn't Vinny's. I said that Vinny was informed about other sources and rather then do the mature, responsible thing and check them out he began slinging insults.

It blows my mind.

And, the crazy thing is, if the move ISN'T on the sources listed, then he could have checked them (in less time it took to post rude comments on here), would have confirmed the idea IS his, and there wouldn't have been any problems.

Like I said- mind blowing.

Ben
Message: Posted by: gdw (Nov 4, 2009 08:17PM)
I am so lost. What is Ben being attacked for?
Also, where is the video of this. I did not see it on the site.

As I have not seen it I don't know how it is used, but it was mentioned that vinny was using the idea of a card being jogged I believe. Any how, might be irrelevant, but Joel givens used a jogged card in conjunction with the hop as a convincer.


Posted: Nov 4, 2009 10:03pm
---------------------------------
Never mind, I saw it now. The jogging I mentioned is nothing like this, though it is a great add on for using the hop as a control. If any one's interested in that, it's in the book Session, the magic of Joel Givens by Josh Jay.


As for Vinny's move, I have not seen the hop used like that, I like the idea. If it HAS been done before, and you have been pointed in the right direction to find out, it is definitely your responsibility to find out.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 4, 2009 11:44PM)
I tried and found nothing I this anoys anyone about the crediting please I insist all of you to search . I did my part I gave proper crediting as far as I know that's it.
check out jack carpenter on you tube he gives harry lorayne and me credit for the hop then he even made it better than my version and harrys
.
Harry lorayne doeen't even know where the move came from he used it as a one card pass ,i am using it as a force
case closed until some one tells me different.
in the mean time get my all access ypou know it all might learn something new
Message: Posted by: TomasB (Nov 5, 2009 01:03AM)
Ernesto has some incredible finesses on it as a download on Vanishing Inc:

http://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-downloads/card-magic-downloads/ernesto/?playvideo=1

In the download he also shows how he uses it as a _force_. Ernesto's additions creates such a stunning optical illusion.

/Tomas
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 5, 2009 01:31AM)
That's some beautiful work my kind a guy I love it.
tomas thank you for sharing
but his work is nothng similar to the hopand force
vinny
Message: Posted by: rannie (Nov 5, 2009 02:11AM)
What has happened to our Café?

Ben, you are a good man with good intentions.... if you can help contact those you think can validate Vinny's move... please just do it. That would be bigger help. This goes out to all who may have more access and knowledge.

Vinny as always, takes time to send his new materials out to friends and fellow magicians for assessment and validation for credits. Everything is conscience based. It is the complete intention to be fair that is important. Even that has some failures....Failures due to lack of knowledge that some have.

You may call me a fanboy for all I care... BUT if Harry says it has merits... there must be something there! The gentleman with the move was even fooled? Not a great word but Harry was. For the record I am a fan of Harry.

Harry was dragged into a fiasco where he was not suppose to be in.

Can't we simply be helpful? If we want to help...please.... let us go all the way!

It is very simple..... If you like it.... TAKE IT! If you don't THEN DON"T!
Say your opinions then scram! No need for the discussions to get ugly! No one wins an award for being all knowing or being a police anyway.

Vinny shared this move to me tears ago and it does work as a control and a force. You see.... Its really different in the real world. Its also different around magicians... Having said that, it still fooled some magicians.

Vinny..... Thanks for sharing your gifts. I think its best that we keep things in the circle sometimes. Just like old times my friend. Make it available to those who really have a use for it and for those with an open mind.
Remember the good old days when we were just a bunch? When we were just sharing with each other and just jamming with best out there?

You are a good man Vinny... Don't let comments get the better of you! Just let them be! Continue to do great magic and be the helpful Godfather that you are! The Café needs you man!

For the record...Vinny and I don't agree in magic all the time! He knows it!

Oh yeah.... He really is a terrible one finger typist! An amazing speller! AND a stubborn Senior who still prefers the word Rifle!

Peace from Manila! AND I'm outta here!

Rannie

PS See you next year Capo!
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Nov 5, 2009 02:40AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-04 20:40, vinsmagic wrote:
Train I see you just read about magic try perfroming some time ,you might learn something, instead of receiting others.
[/quote]

Oy.

You're WAY out of line, Vinny. Ben Train works -- he doesn't just sit in front of a webcam and sell whatever hand-manipulation diarrhea comes to mind. He tried to do you a favour to save you the embarrassment of building a reputation of repackaging other people's work. This is the response you give him?

If this isn't clear enough to you, send whatever member of La Famiglia you want and I'll explain it to them personally. Capisce?
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Nov 5, 2009 02:55AM)
Alright, enough already! We're talking magic tricks, and now we're talking (or at least implying) physical violence?
If you KNOW of a source that has the move used the way Vinny does it, tell him. If you don't, why are you even posting about it?

I remember when I sent a book to a guy to review and tell me what he thought about it. after a few days, we talked, and he told me all the things he didn't like about it. As we talked some more, it turned out he hadn't even really read it--just the first few pages.

When The Café started, it was a place where magicians came and encouraged each other. If someone put out something that was a duplication, someone else would say, "That exact same thing appeared in this book, published in this year, on this page." I haven't seen anything remotely like that here.

Other side of the coin: Sometimes you'll explain something just that way to another member, and they have a hissy fit and accuse you of professional jealousy, etc.

People on BOTH sides of the issue in this topic are out of line. It's a bloody card move! It's not murder, it's not the cure for cancer, it's not the solution to world hunger! You don't have to type every single thought that happens to pop into your mind, and thinly veiled threats about physical violence are not only ludicrous, they are offensive and totally unacceptable.

Now I AM done with this thread!
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Nov 5, 2009 05:09AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 03:55, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
Alright, enough already! We're talking magic tricks, and now we're talking (or at least implying) physical violence? Some of you guys can be very glad I'm not the Chief of Staff here anymore, because your posts would be gone and so would you for a couple of weeks.

If you KNOW of a source that has the move used the way Vinny does it, tell him. If you don't, why are you even posting about it?

I remember when I sent a book to a guy to review and tell me what he thought about it. after a few days, we talked, and he told me all the things he didn't like about it. As we talked some more, it turned out he hadn't even really read it--just the first few pages.

When The Café started, it was a place where magicians came and encouraged each other. If someone put out something that was a duplication, someone else would say, "That exact same thing appeared in this book, published in this year, on this page." I haven't seen anything remotely like that here.

Other side of the coin: Sometimes you'll explain something just that way to another member, and they have a hissy fit and accuse you of professional jealousy, etc.

People on BOTH sides of the issue in this topic are out of line. It's a bloody card move! It's not murder, it's not the cure for cancer, it's not the solution to world hunger! You don't have to type every single thought that happens to pop into your mind, and thinly veiled threats about physical violence are not only ludicrous, they are offensive and totally unacceptable.

Now I AM done with this thread!
[/quote]

No need to get in a twist, Guinn. There's no threat of violence. It's obvious that attempts to make Vinny understand the situation via the Café aren't working, so perhaps something more one-on-one would help.

That said, if you've got an issue with me standing up for a friend who's trying to do the right thing, then pull whatever strings you like. Ben's been the one person here who's tried to handle the issue with grace and class, and I'm not interested in seeing him take abuse for that. If speaking up on his behalf means I've got to get banned, so be it.
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Nov 5, 2009 05:17AM)
Well, Musgrave, if you hadn't noticed, I'm not on staff anymore and don't have any strings to pull. I'll take you at your word, but your statement sure came across as a threat of violence to me. It's clear it was intended as "talking tough."

And as I said, no one, not you, not Ben (who I am friendly with and have no issues with), nor anyone else has cited WHERE this supposedly exact same thing was published. In point of fact, there is no EVIDENCE of wrong-doing by Vinny at all--just some speculation and generalities. Anyone can say, "That's been done before. you've added nothing new." But unless and until someone can show a book or video or magazine where the same thing was previously published, it's just mud-slinging, pure and simple.

You accused Vinny of being out of line, and he was--just as you were. Seems to me it was you who was "in a twist".
Message: Posted by: rannie (Nov 5, 2009 05:21AM)
[quote]

If this isn't clear enough to you, send whatever member of La Famiglia you want and I'll explain it to them personally. Capisce?
[/quote]

That would not be necessary Andrew! Kindly refrain from making generalized statements about The Famiglia. Just as you would stand up for a friend.... Some of Vinny's would do the same. In various ways. Incidentally, some of us understood right from the very start. This gentleman is one of them. Allow me to say this too... There is no magic mafia or mob! Too childish even for a kid! The Famiglia is just a bunch of people who enjoys magic.

Best from Manila!

Rannie
Message: Posted by: Scott F. Guinn (Nov 5, 2009 05:27AM)
And by the way, just for the record:

I am friendly with Rannie, Vinny, Marion, and Tim Feher. But I am not in "La Famiglia." I am also friendly with Ben, Harry Lorayne, and others who have posted in this topic. Haven't actually MET any of them. It's not an issue of taking sides no matter what. It's an issue of making accusations with no evidence to back them up, and piling on. I'd speak out against that if folks were doing that to you, too, Musgrave.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Nov 5, 2009 05:30AM)
The guy refers to himself as the Godfather, calls his group La Famiglia, has "sleeping with the fishes..." in his profile, and once chastised a former affiliate who criticized a product of theirs, by saying "you never go against the family" or some similar nonsense. I was only trying to communicate in his language.

Seems to me, somebody who's so proud of their raincoat shouldn't have a problem getting a little rain on it.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 5, 2009 06:35AM)
I'm very proud of my rain coat and I'm not afraid of some rain. It seems like you and Ben and others have a problem with [b]me[/b] and not my work.
So be a man pm me and tell me what the problem is, but don't try and make me out to be a thief on a public forum.
I am not selling tricks I am selling my all access, which includes some work of others that is in print. Everything I put out has been worked in the real world, and it's not crap as you say.
Message: Posted by: Jack of Spades (Nov 5, 2009 06:46AM)
Now, can someone tell me what all the fuss is about "La Famiglia" and "Sleeping with the fishes"?

What do these things mean?

They sound a bit sinister.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 5, 2009 06:55AM)
You just proved my point is not about a effect and crediting it's about me...
K,,M,,,A,,
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 5, 2009 08:09AM)
This is my final post on this subject- truly.

My criticism was directed at the way Vinny handled the information that the move might have been previously invented, not with the actual move itself. It may very well be Vinny's- to bad he didn't bother to check out the resources that had been suggested to him.

His attitude was 1) that people were hating on him and more troublesome 2) "if you have a source send it to me or kiss my ***".

Think about that last point, and how scary the implication are if it were to be followed.

Finally, no need to defend me people. Read the thread. Look at my comments and Vinny's. Think critically about the situation and in the end if it turns out you still disagree with me it shouldn't matter how little, or much, I work (or any of the other ad hominems thrown at me).

I politely tried to tell someone that they [b]might[/b] be making a mistake, and was repeatedly insulted. I have pretty thick skin but frankly I'm busy and don't have time for such nonsense, so I am done with this thread.

All the best,
Ben
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 5, 2009 08:43AM)
I have been speaking with Vinny via PMs and we are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I'm out.

Enjoy Vinny's work...
Message: Posted by: Rizzo (Nov 5, 2009 08:57AM)
I am 100% confident that some of the things said by some folks on this thread would not dared be said in person. Computers and telephones tend to make a persons balls get larger somehow.
Message: Posted by: xaviormagic (Nov 5, 2009 09:07AM)
How true that is.....
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 5, 2009 09:10AM)
100% that's an awfully certain number.

It sounds like those whose balls are enhanced by a keyboard have just spoken.

I look forward to meeting you and proving you wrong.

J
Message: Posted by: xaviormagic (Nov 5, 2009 09:12AM)
LOL why is everyone so angry so early in the morning. Relax have a drink and if you still have the need to be angry at the world. Have another drink.
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 5, 2009 09:13AM)
Drinking in the morning! Now THAT is something I can get behind!

I agree, throw some vodka in that OJ.

J
Message: Posted by: xaviormagic (Nov 5, 2009 09:23AM)
See already the anger is leaving all thanks to the sauce
Message: Posted by: Adam1975 (Nov 5, 2009 09:49AM)
My, the Café is very angry lately..., and it always seems to be about crediting...

I hope I don't get jumped on, for inventing Tilt....
Or as it should be known from now on, tilt1975 :lol:
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 5, 2009 09:51AM)
Ben and J I apologize to both of you I'm a old guy with" Very "thin skin.
I said some mean things to both of you and for this I'm sorry.
I work very hard trying to create new technques and I always share what I do.
\There are some on the Café that do not like me for no reason a all then there are a few that feel the opposite.
i'l have that tequila shot now
vinny
Message: Posted by: Rizzo (Nov 5, 2009 09:52AM)
Jay I'll admit that was definitely funny. But...not sure why it tweaked you as my comment was a generalization and [b]not[/b] intended at any one member specifically. I just see it more and more lately on more and more threads as well as deal with it in life outside the Café, never in person though where manners usually overshadow arrogance. Perhaps 1 day we will meet.
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 5, 2009 10:05AM)
I hope we can meet one day Rizzo. I understand that there is a certain amount of power behind a keyboard but I doubt manners is the key to it being suppressed in person. I do think fear of being publicly persecuted is potentially a deterrent. In person I am just as critical of others and my self. I have many many mirrors all around my home some huge (8ft by 4 ft) some small table sized ones and I have a video camera that goes on my TV so I can watch from a plethora of difficult angles to catch with a mirror.

I find it difficult to take in anything sub par that could be remedied and Vin and I have discusses this via PMs. I am a stickler for quality, the self publishing movement is quickly destroying any attempt at quality control. The industrial revolution took a huge chop at consumer quality items now we are faced with a drop in quality production and information.

Sorry for the rant.

J
Message: Posted by: gdw (Nov 5, 2009 01:13PM)
That zenu at least vinny grasped the general over reaction. Rannie, no one was saying anything about not liking the move.
Message: Posted by: weapon (Nov 5, 2009 01:21PM)
Great force vin! I like!

btw I gotta show you my little take on your giggle force..it might make you giggle!
Message: Posted by: gdw (Nov 5, 2009 01:23PM)
*That zenu-thank zenu
Message: Posted by: fingerjack (Nov 5, 2009 01:43PM)
Wow! And I have no more popcorn. You know, not that anyone cares, but I don't know what to say other than for years Vinnie has been a helpful and generous member here at the Café. He has shared numerous free videos of his original works with me and many other members. I don't even get all the fuss...I believe he credited who he thought was appropriate to credit and that's that. The crediting stuff has got way out of hand. If he's wrong, point him to it and I'm sure he'll fix it. In my opinion Vinnie has, and never was, out to rip anyone off. Someone who shares so freely really has nothing to gain. Before someone threatens to break my nose with a dancing cane let me state for the record that I am an idiot.
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 5, 2009 01:56PM)
Jack,
I think this has been as resolved as it is going to be. For those not directly involved there is much more than this thread. A slew of PMs and choice words, colorful language, wild accusations, etc.

I don't know if this was as much a battle of crediting as people think it is.

J
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Nov 5, 2009 02:02PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 14:43, fingerjack wrote:
Wow! And I have no more popcorn. You know, not that anyone cares, but I don't know what to say other than for years Vinnie has been a helpful and generous member here at the Café. He has shared numerous free videos of his original works with me and many other members. I don't even get all the fuss...I believe he credited who he thought was appropriate to credit and that's that. The crediting stuff has got way out of hand. If he's wrong, point him to it and I'm sure he'll fix it. In my opinion Vinnie has, and never was, out to rip anyone off. Someone who shares so freely really has nothing to gain. Before someone threatens to break my nose with a dancing cane let me state for the record that I am an idiot.
[/quote]

I'm with you. I was un-aware of any issue with crediting, that said Vinny has never been anything other than very helpful and generous towards me (and the Café I would imagine).
Message: Posted by: fingerjack (Nov 5, 2009 02:17PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 14:56, Jay Mahon wrote:
Jack,
I think this has been as resolved as it is going to be. For those not directly involved there is much more than this thread. A slew of PMs and choice words, colorful language, wild accusations, etc.

I don't know if this was as much a battle of crediting as people think it is.

J
[/quote]

Ug, then I'm staying waaaaaaaaaay out of it. All I know is that it's really too bad, and in some strange way, it really makes me sad.
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Nov 5, 2009 02:25PM)
Shouldn't make you sad, I think everyone was just trying to make things better. Not better like resolved better, better as in improved.

J
Message: Posted by: gdw (Nov 5, 2009 03:13PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 14:43, fingerjack wrote:
Wow! And I have no more popcorn. You know, not that anyone cares, but I don't know what to say other than for years Vinnie has been a helpful and generous member here at the Café. He has shared numerous free videos of his original works with me and many other members. I don't even get all the fuss...I believe he credited who he thought was appropriate to credit and that's that. The crediting stuff has got way out of hand. If he's wrong, point him to it and I'm sure he'll fix it. . . [/quote]

That was exactly what someone tried to do actually. Thankfully it seems to be all resolved now.
Message: Posted by: Jack of Spades (Nov 5, 2009 03:46PM)
Vinny - the 'Godfather' etc. now been explained to me. My question was not meant to be disrespectful, so apologies if it came across that way. My impression of you is that you're a sincere and nice guy with a genuine love for magic. I think the hop force is a great idea. All the best to you! Jack
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 5, 2009 07:04PM)
Jack apologies excepted no hard feelings
vinny
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Nov 5, 2009 11:13PM)
Speaking for myself, as long as I have been on the Café, Vinny has been nothing but generous to me. If he did miss a credit (he's human after all), I find it hard to believe that it was on purpose. Again, I am speaking from my experience with Vinny and am not slamming anyone who doesn't agree. There are a ton of good people here. I have learned a lot here.
I just wanted to speak my piece.
Vinny, thanks for your contribution to magic Vinny and the help you have given me. I hope we get to actually hang out one day.

Peace,
Jack
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 6, 2009 10:43AM)
By the way I received a demo from a reliable source that does not want to get involed
it was a demo of Michael Skinner performing the Hop but it is called the MS SHIFT
I wll have to credit Michael Skinner as well as Harry Lorayne not sure of the date that this was filmed or when it was in print.

however there nothing of the idea of using the MS shift aka Hop was used as a force
vinny
ps I claim nothing execpt for a idea not a creation











Up Date I was informed that Michael did this some 25years ago but he did not use the idea for a force
it was a slo- motion shift the force idea is new idea
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Nov 6, 2009 12:27PM)
Seems all the fire here wasn't really necessary in light of the further research that has come of it. While the Hop and the Shift have been here (and Vinny never claimed it wasn't here and actually credited the great, Harry Lorayne for the Hop), the use of the move in the way of a card force seems new, as to Vinny's new Unfaithful Force. So as dirt be dug, it seems that the Godfather has come through again with a bit of his extraordinary style of things. That's probably because his intent is always testifiably here pure and good.

So whatever the stew of all this is, there's a bit more in the pot to it now thanks to Vinny...Is this not true? Good job Vin and just keep doing what you do, it's really appreciated much moreso than not.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Nov 6, 2009 12:59PM)
I am still surprised there was a "thing" made about this. I don't belive there ever was any accusations made, but plenty of defence against accusations, lol.

Any how, all good to hear. Again, I like the idea. The hop has lots of potential, and I am surprised so little has been done with it.
Message: Posted by: The One (Nov 7, 2009 05:39PM)
Well this should be called "The Hop force" then right? "Force with The Hop"?
Message: Posted by: dscanning (Nov 7, 2009 07:15PM)
Well, I just happened upon this thread and after reading it from beginning to end, I have to say that Vinny has no reason to apologize to anyone. If a move is identical to a move that someone else has published or filmed before and it is "obviously identical to the inventor's original handling" then let the credit wolves attack. But if a new handling is "obviously different from the original handling or structure" then stop the silly nitpicking.
Telling Vinny that he needs to do the mature thing and give credit insinuates that Vinny has done a bad thing and casts him in a very bad light. You are telling someone that, effectively, they must prove they are innocent, when no one has offered ANY proof that he is guilty. I believe the correct juxtaposition of terms is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. I like it. Let's keep it.
This kind of thinking and harsh treatment only makes inventors and sharers of this art want to never show anyone anything they come up with, less they be attacked by the young jackals who look for anyone who doesn't spend years reading thru all the tomes of magic to make sure no one has ever done his handling in a similar fashion.
If it is blatant and obviously a rip-off, then I am on your side and want that person to be shamed. But that hop move has many variations and there will be many more variations in the future. I have seen many different hop moves, but never seen the handling that Vinny incorporates with a riffle force. It fooled me badly and I am grateful that he is kind enough to share.
If someone has the same handling and structure in a book or on a tape, then reference it and speak of it gently, without harshness.
But if you have a vague memory of a similar handling, do not open your mouth or print a word until you check your facts...otherwise, you impugn a good man's reputation and make yourself unwelcome in future discussions.
Thank you!
Doug Canning
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 7, 2009 08:55PM)
Doug I want to personaly thank you for your support, and standing by what I did.

The One I could of called the The hop Force but I was advided by a very knowledgeble person who is a magician and mentalist and close friend Scott Grossberg not to name it that for obvious reasons./

The other side of the coin How come the midnight shift is not called the hermman pass or
the spread pass is not called the Hermman pass ect ect ......
Message: Posted by: sgrossberg (Nov 8, 2009 04:31PM)
Actually, the name "Unfaithful Force" came about because, if you actually study this force application of an old gambler's move, you will see that the card(s) to be controlled do not stay married to the proper packet - in other words, the card(s) do not stay true to their intended and apparent position, move on while onlookers believe the card(s) is/are somewhere else, and then kiss another packet.

Hence, the name.

Vinny - I continue to use this force with devastating results! Thanks for sharing with me. - Scott
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 9, 2009 01:30PM)
Hi Scott Good to hear from you and your support.
Just a reminder next month I will be releasing a sandwich effect that has a new and different twist.
and the month after I promise I will be doing a coin effect with my opriginal coin control Rice Krispies vanish (snap crackle and pop)
I expect the WOLFS to be out in full force..... LOL
vinny