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Topic: Psuedo-Skeptic Seance'
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 3, 2009 03:58PM)
Kind of like a VooDoo Witch Doctor attempting Brain Surgery :bat:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2465927
Message: Posted by: julieannjohnson (Nov 3, 2009 09:00PM)
Well, that was oddly joyless, to say the least. I don't understand the point -- either of the video or of your carrying the url here for us to watch.

In my opinion, the whole "skeptics versus believers" conflict is just another version of the game that Eric Berne long ago identified as "Let's you and him fight." And that's all they want -- a fight.

I long ago decided to leave Randi, his foundation, his pathetic fanboys with their amateur radio-announcer voices, and his entire crerw's juvenile, snarky, name-dropping, and self-congratulatory bloviating out of my life. Randi is now known in my household as "that cold-hearted, unprofessional has-been who ruthlessly exposed a promising young magician's effects."
Message: Posted by: Sid Helkule (Nov 3, 2009 09:26PM)
Oh Dave is gonna LOVE you! ;)
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 3, 2009 09:29PM)
I see your point. Maybe I should do that too :)

I listened to the entire hour and one half. It was kind of a rip off of what Jim Callahan had envisioned before the Psuedo-Skeptics made false statements to the authorities ... Then they attempt something similar on their own. But it wasn't funny enough to be Satire and not scientific enough to be taken seriously.

I still can't get over Brian Brushwood exposing Bill Cushman's Mirabill. Lot's of nice folks paid good money for that effect, just to have it exposed on youtube like that. It's just [b]wrong![/b] He's a member here and has had some great input over the years. To just rip him off like that is unfair!

The Pseudo-Skeptic Seance petered out about half way through with a big percentage tuning out. I had hoped for something more interesting, but in the end it was just some guys goofing around.

There will soon be a '[b]real seance[/b]' with pseudo-skeptics, genuine skeptics, pseudo-believers and genuine believers.
It will be a totally scientific study of contact with the dearly departed. We will compare it to what has occurred before.
[b]It will be fun!!![/b]
Message: Posted by: Oyama (Nov 5, 2009 01:28AM)
I actually like the new direction Samurai is going.


That seance was difficult to watch.
Message: Posted by: Chris H (Nov 5, 2009 02:45AM)
I watched the first ten minutes and then turned it off. I agree that it wasn't particularly good. The idea certainly had potential, but the 3 hosts didn't appear like they wanted to do anything but act like school boys, which was a shame.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 5, 2009 07:07AM)
Yep ... It pretty much sucked!
You need to get real mediums to have a real seance, or at least people who are open to the possibility. Not a bunch of grade school potty jokes :)
Message: Posted by: Chris H (Nov 5, 2009 07:29AM)
Please let me know when you find some.

Cheers,

Chris
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 5, 2009 07:53AM)
Here's a whole town of them just a few minutes away.

http://www.cassadaga.org/

It's a group of very religious and honest folks. So Well liked in the community of Florida that it is a destination for many who seek the truth.

Jim Callahan spent some time there in his youth. I visit often.

They have meetings on Sunday's and usually Wednesdays just like Baptists, Methodists or Catholics :)
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 5, 2009 09:15AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 08:07, Psychic Samurai wrote:
You need to get real mediums to have a real seance
[/quote]

If that's the case we'll never have a real seance.

Psychics (whatever THEY are apart) This has to be the biggest insult to Michael Jackson and his family ever.

Derek Acorah, one of the worlds worst (alleged) psychics is going to try and contact MJ. This has to be an all time low for television.

http://sky1.sky.com/derek-acorah-to-attempt-to-contact-michael-jackson

Derek
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 5, 2009 09:23AM)
It's already been done several times.
Maybe not on TV but certainly on the radio.
http://shadowsinthedark.planetparanormal.com/?p=196
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 5, 2009 09:58AM)
Thanks for the link Dave

I find that report really disturbing. Dr. Gary Frick really appears to have had an in-deapth chat with Michael Jackson. Given the clarity of the messeges, why didn't Micheal reveal the true reasons for his death and save us all a lot of time and anguish. With direction from the the deceased I'm sure all the appropriate evidence could be gathered and the complete picture of MJ's final moments revealed.

Somehow, like Derek Acorah, Dr Frick was just after a bit of publicity and cash.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 5, 2009 10:04AM)
Why would MJ want to reveal the true underbelly of his life? That's just not believable in any sense. If he was so "Weird" in Life, think how "Out There" he is in Death :bat:
He's certainly not going to "Fess Up" now!
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Nov 5, 2009 10:39AM)
Derek:

Was it an all time low each time they held a seance for Houdini?

I'm not saying I don't agree with you...

Tony
Message: Posted by: mota (Nov 5, 2009 12:33PM)
Skeptics are missing a very active segment of the population for exposure. These people have no real scientific knowledge or credentials yet insist on scientific proof for things they disagree with. Many of their posts on various boards emphasize this point...they don't seem as interested in science as they do arguing and being right. Many of them can't even write a valid hypothesis, much less design a study.

Completely unqualified know-it-alls pontificating endlessly...should be easy marks for scientifically qualified skeptics.
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 5, 2009 03:19PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 11:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Why would MJ want to reveal the true underbelly of his life? That's just not believable in any sense. If he was so "Weird" in Life, think how "Out There" he is in Death :bat:
He's certainly not going to "Fess Up" now!
[/quote]

LMAO A typical reply from an alleged psychic. Nice one Dave, LOL
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Nov 5, 2009 05:01PM)
Psuedo-Mediumship and Mediumship (note I separated the two) are the origin of mentalism. Step 9 in Corina is devoted to mediumistic stunts, other aspects of communication with the other side run throughout that same course.

Séances, mediums, communication with the dead, these are all aspects of “mentalism” and were the core at its formation.

Perhaps some new to the field do not know this, or perhaps some do not want to acknowledge it as it is considered by some to be a ‘dirty little secret”.

As far as I'm concerned the topics of Séances and mediums are valid for this forum. But the mocking and insults by those who feel they are better than others and have superior belief systems (on all sides of the discussions), that does not belong here, in my opinion anyway.

Tony
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Nov 5, 2009 05:06PM)
I've just had a message from the Corinthian hall, and everyone there agrees...
Message: Posted by: tincture (Nov 5, 2009 05:25PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-04 19:30, Psychic Samurai wrote:
I still can't get over brian brushwood exposing Bill Cushman's Mirabill. it's just WRONG! He's a member here and has had some great input over the years. To just rip him off like that is unfair!

The Pseudo-Skeptic Seance petered out about half way through with a big percentage tuning out. I had hoped for something more interesting, but in the end it was just some guys goofing around.
[/quote]

While the two share the same method - Bill's is better. This isn't his handling of the effect, or have I missed something!

Tim
Message: Posted by: bobser (Nov 5, 2009 06:07PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-05 18:06, IAIN wrote:
I've just had a message from the Corinthian hall, and everyone there agrees...
[/quote]

I just fell into this thread. And that comment really did make me LOL.
Thanks Iain.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Nov 5, 2009 06:44PM)
I bet some will have to wikipedia it too...
Message: Posted by: mota (Nov 5, 2009 09:40PM)
I got a nice black kitty. She has a toy, a track ball that she bats at and it goes around and around and around. She is sweet but not bright enough to realize she will never catch the ball.

Something just reminded me of this story...
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Nov 5, 2009 09:49PM)
One of the places that I worked at was very trying on the newbie’s.

I remember a new person started, we set up his area for him. He came in, later he went to use the phone but could not dial out. John told him that he had a "man's" phone, and needed to push the buttons real hard to make it work. The poor kid was pounding on the thing so hard, that he broke it. He never realized that the phone was not plugged in.
Message: Posted by: JohnWells (Nov 7, 2009 12:54PM)
While I do believe in psychic phenomena (though I'd be hardpressed to define it), my visits to the spiritualists have been a little disappointing.
Message: Posted by: doubletime (Nov 7, 2009 03:57PM)
I actually really enjoyed this - felt kind of like a reality show.
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 8, 2009 06:23AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-07 13:54, JohnWells wrote:
...my visits to the spiritualists have been a little disappointing.
[/quote]

Ditto
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 8, 2009 09:44AM)
Just wondering what Spiritualists you visited? Did you present the same attitude as these seance' guys? Or is it just another story?
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 9, 2009 03:36PM)
PS: I went to spiritualist churches
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 9, 2009 07:16PM)
That's awesome! Obviously you didn't like them ... right?
If not, why?
Thanks
Dave
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 10, 2009 07:23AM)
From a mentalist point of view, most of what I have seen 'could' be cold or hot reading. Using the word 'could' means that I cannot prove one way or another.

From a Christian point of view, (I'm not a Christian now but was a born again Christian for several years), spritualists and mediums are offensive to God...

Leviticus 19:31 NIV
" 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6 NIV
" 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

Leviticus 20:27 NIV
" 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

1 Chronicles 10:13 NIV
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,

Isaiah 8:19 NIV
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

From a personal point of view - Having attended several meetings they all seemed to take on a similar pattern, prayer, hymns, mediumship.

The medium would call out in the fashion of a cold reader names until he had a hit. He'd confirm who the spirit was by giving evidence of aspects of the spirits life that would be confirmed by the person that recognised the spitit, all very cold reading-ish. The medium would finish with a message from the spirit which was almost always a vague statement of 'love and always with you' etc. Or something vague or un-checkable at that time etc etc.

Some of the mediums had spectacular hits, but their ability was inconsistant. I cannot understand why someone that is communicating directly with a spirit that is there specifically to give a message can have a 'miss' or have to grope around for a name or ask what the relationship to a person is. If a spirit is there, why do mediums struggle with information???
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 10, 2009 09:20AM)
Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it right or wrong. I regularly communicate with the spirits and I can tell you they can be a moody bunch.

I think all this born again stuff is even dodgier...


I predicted MJ would never do the concerts and that he would soon be dead about three months before it happened. This is true by the way. Conincedence perhaps but I did tell a few friends in conversation that's what I thought.

And it wasn't even a "prediction" it came up a few times during conversations...
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 10, 2009 09:56AM)
Never said it was right or wrong.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 10, 2009 09:59AM)
You did imply that they were wrong in most of your posts...

My spookies say they aren't happy and know where you stay. So be careful.
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 10, 2009 10:05AM)
:bawl:
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Nov 10, 2009 01:31PM)
Imagine turning on a radio and getting nothing but white noise, with just the barest wisp of a signal coming through that you're trying to parse.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Nov 10, 2009 01:34PM)
Not all but some of these mediums, why can't they spill a last name, rather than just the first?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 10, 2009 01:42PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-10 14:31, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
Imagine turning on a radio and getting nothing but white noise, with just the barest wisp of a signal coming through that you're trying to parse.
[/quote]


Are you being racist? Whats wrong with black noise? Just whitey noise huh?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 10, 2009 01:43PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-10 14:34, IAIN wrote:
Not all but some of these mediums, why can't they spill a last name, rather than just the first?
[/quote]

For the same reason you have to slap your head and take 10 mins to reveal a name...

They like a bit of a show you know.
Message: Posted by: JohnWells (Nov 10, 2009 03:12PM)
I've visited a local lily dale congregation several times. The people are lovely, but the "messages" look like bad (really bad) attempts at cold reading, more than spirit communication, and I have some experience in both.
The medium on one occasion began her message with the words "it's like fake fur.." (the spirits were showing her something that was supposed to be faniliar with the person whom the message was intended for), and as she tweaked her message trying to get a hit, she finished her spiel with the words "it's not like fake fur."
Another medium told delivered a message about not letting her family leave all the housework for her to do. Looking at the person, I doubt she's ever done any housework in her life. The message was what the medium wanted the spirits to say to her, not what they wanted to say to the woman visiting.
In short, a competent guesser could have done far better. I don't doubt the possibility of spirit communication, but I doubt very seriously that that is what was going on.

Granted, I have a number of purely philosophical problems with the tennets of spiritualism, but I don't think that skewwed my assessment of the services I've attended.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Nov 10, 2009 03:18PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-10 14:43, mindpunisher wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-11-10 14:34, IAIN wrote:
Not all but some of these mediums, why can't they spill a last name, rather than just the first?
[/quote]

For the same reason you have to slap your head and take 10 mins to reveal a name...

They like a bit of a show you know.
[/quote]

I'm no slaphead mentalist...
Message: Posted by: julieannjohnson (Nov 26, 2009 01:23PM)
I have met people in the field of mentalism and CR who are atheists, agnooostics, ex-relious, avidly religious, and who have non-specific a-religious beliefs in some sort of spiritual matrix or connectivity between elements of the natural world. In other words, it is my experience that personal belief systems do not delimit the type of work a professional can do in the fields of psychic entertainment, counselling, and mentalism.

At the risk of sounding Pollyanna-ish, it is my hope that whatever our beliefs, we can agree to discuss techniques, tips, and strategies for maximizing our professional careers without descending to rude oppositional sarcasm or wasting each others' time on foolish attempts to "convert" one another to some supposed "orthodoxy" of the profession.

According to the conventional skeptical POV, I am a "believer" -- but I see nothing wrong with using CR, stacks, forces, and other professional techniques as a tool of shamanic therapy in a Spiritualist Church or private reading venue.

In fact, as far as I know, the use of secret techniques that induce belief and confidence while attempting to engage the placebo effect is traditional in most religious and social professions, and any atheist who thinks that the knowledge and use of such techniques constitutes "charlatanry" is simply unfamiliar with the true history of the world's varied religious, medical, social service, psychotherapeutic, and legal professions.
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Nov 26, 2009 01:47PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-26 14:23, julieannjohnson wrote:
I have met people in the field of mentalism and CR who are atheists, agnooostics, ex-relious, avidly religious, and who have non-specific a-religious beliefs in some sort of spiritual matrix or connectivity between elements of the natural world. In other words, it is my experience that personal belief systems do not delimit the type of work a professional can do in the fields of psychic entertainment, counselling, and mentalism.

At the risk of sounding Pollyanna-ish, it is my hope that whatever our beliefs, we can agree to discuss techniques, tips, and strategies for maximizing our professional careers without descending to rude oppositional sarcasm or wasting each others' time on foolish attempts to "convert" one another to some supposed "orthodoxy" of the profession.

According to the conventional skeptical POV, I am a "believer" -- but I see nothing wrong with using CR, stacks, forces, and other professional techniques as a tool of shamanic therapy in a Spiritualist Church or private reading venue.

In fact, as far as I know, the use of secret techniques that induce belief and confidence while attempting to engage the placebo effect is traditional in most religious and social professions, and any atheist who thinks that the knowledge and use of such techniques constitutes "charlatanry" is simply unfamiliar with the true history of the world's varied religious, medical, social service, psychotherapeutic, and legal professions.
[/quote]

I'd like to nominate Julieann's post here as one of the best, if not THE single greatest (!) post I've ever read here at the Magic Café. You've put this topic into words I've always felt but had a hard time expressing so eloquently and perfectly. If it were up to me this post would be made a 'Sticky' at the top of the forum.

Thank you, from me...
Message: Posted by: julieannjohnson (Nov 26, 2009 02:37PM)
Aw, geee... :thanx:
Message: Posted by: Chris H (Nov 26, 2009 05:16PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-26 14:23, julieannjohnson wrote:

According to the conventional skeptical POV, I am a "believer" -- but I see nothing wrong with using CR, stacks, forces, and other professional techniques as a tool of shamanic therapy in a Spiritualist Church or private reading venue.

[/quote]

Huh? Did I actually read that correctly?
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Nov 26, 2009 05:26PM)
Probably not :lol:

What do you think you read?
Message: Posted by: backinblack (Nov 26, 2009 07:14PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-26 14:23, julieannjohnson wrote:
I have met people in the field of mentalism and CR who are atheists, agnooostics, ex-relious, avidly religious, and who have non-specific a-religious beliefs in some sort of spiritual matrix or connectivity between elements of the natural world. In other words, it is my experience that personal belief systems do not delimit the type of work a professional can do in the fields of psychic entertainment, counselling, and mentalism.

At the risk of sounding Pollyanna-ish, it is my hope that whatever our beliefs, we can agree to discuss techniques, tips, and strategies for maximizing our professional careers without descending to rude oppositional sarcasm or wasting each others' time on foolish attempts to "convert" one another to some supposed "orthodoxy" of the profession.

According to the conventional skeptical POV, I am a "believer" -- but I see nothing wrong with using CR, stacks, forces, and other professional techniques as a tool of shamanic therapy in a Spiritualist Church or private reading venue.

In fact, as far as I know, the use of secret techniques that induce belief and confidence while attempting to engage the placebo effect is traditional in most religious and social professions, and any atheist who thinks that the knowledge and use of such techniques constitutes "charlatanry" is simply unfamiliar with the true history of the world's varied religious, medical, social service, psychotherapeutic, and legal professions.
[/quote]

most of what you write I agree with. I do not believe in any religious stuff but in capitalism. so it is all about the benefit of the client. 30% of peoples medical probs can be served with placebos. for some this is a pill, for some this is psi-energie, hoodoo or whatever. when client and seller are in a win-win situation: who wantz to state probz?

so my conclusion is that it is the best to inspire each other:

on the one hand using technics to inhance the believe system to achieve a high level of placebo effect for the client to befit the most he can get for his money. (technical inspiration)

on the other hand to inspire each other in a way to question each other. this has a higher need for tolerance like abe lincoln said: chritiziserz are our friendz: they show us our week pointz. (philosophical inspiration)
Message: Posted by: Stmarkus (Nov 27, 2009 09:31AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-26 14:23, julieannjohnson wrote:
I have met people in the field of mentalism and CR who are atheists, agnooostics, ex-relious, avidly religious, and who have non-specific a-religious beliefs in some sort of spiritual matrix or connectivity between elements of the natural world. In other words, it is my experience that personal belief systems do not delimit the type of work a professional can do in the fields of psychic entertainment, counselling, and mentalism.

At the risk of sounding Pollyanna-ish, it is my hope that whatever our beliefs, we can agree to discuss techniques, tips, and strategies for maximizing our professional careers without descending to rude oppositional sarcasm or wasting each others' time on foolish attempts to "convert" one another to some supposed "orthodoxy" of the profession.

According to the conventional skeptical POV, I am a "believer" -- but I see nothing wrong with using CR, stacks, forces, and other professional techniques as a tool of shamanic therapy in a Spiritualist Church or private reading venue.

In fact, as far as I know, the use of secret techniques that induce belief and confidence while attempting to engage the placebo effect is traditional in most religious and social professions, and any atheist who thinks that the knowledge and use of such techniques constitutes "charlatanry" is simply unfamiliar with the true history of the world's varied religious, medical, social service, psychotherapeutic, and legal professions.
[/quote]

Julieann.....Thank you, for you've taken my thoughts and feelings about what can be a very complex subject, and have articulated them most eloquently.....You truly have "The Gift"..... ;)

All the best, And a belated Happy Thanksgiving to All....

Mark
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Nov 27, 2009 09:55AM)
Julieannjohnson: :thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: Brane (Nov 27, 2009 11:48AM)
Julieannjohnson:

I'm not fully convinced that 'me,too'ism is necessarily a useful pastime , but I really do have to agree with the positive assessments of your 26 Nov posting! So very well said!
brane