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Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Nov 23, 2009 07:27PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5x2FQuQfTg

http://vimeo.com/7666157
Message: Posted by: Mary Mowder (Nov 23, 2009 08:14PM)
Absolutely beautiful,

Lovely music. Amazing and artistic card work. I prefer it to the ultra fast work of many others (although I like that too).

Perhaps it is more dance and jugglery than Magic but I have no problem with that.

This art form is certainly growing and expanding at an exciting rate.

Thank you for the link mandarin.

Thank you Dimitri Arleri for a wonderful experience.

-Mary Mowder
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Nov 23, 2009 08:29PM)
K- the last thing he does it pretty pimp.
Message: Posted by: Cain (Nov 23, 2009 08:34PM)
Good thing this guy doesn't take himself too seriously. I could see how people might find that annoying. I mean... if he did which he doesn't. Clearly.
Message: Posted by: Sword of the Soldier (Nov 23, 2009 09:26PM)
The question is...can he find my card? :P
Message: Posted by: Mathias Kersting (Nov 23, 2009 10:05PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-23 22:26, Sword of the Soldier wrote:
The question is...can he find my card? :P
[/quote]

Does he have too?
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Nov 23, 2009 10:42PM)
Maybe its just me - but - ZZzzzzzzz
Message: Posted by: huruey (Nov 23, 2009 11:05PM)
Wow. Some of that was just mad. I find it quite funny that at one point he quite literally juggles with the cards! I still prefer being able to do something impossible.

Joe
Message: Posted by: Irfaan Kahan (Nov 23, 2009 11:05PM)
Everytime I start to imagine that I'm getting pretty good something like this comes along and makes me feel like a rank amateur.

I say well done to him, I thought it looked beautiful.
Message: Posted by: martin1025 (Nov 23, 2009 11:21PM)
ZZzz its correct for me too. That is something that I will never understand about that type of excessive flourishing; it is not entertaining for more than 30 seconds. The first reaction from a layman might be wow; but then it becomes boring. I mean in real life there is no music when you are performing and really what can you possibly say when you juggle cards for 5 mins in real life. I rather practice sleights that can produce magic; magic that will entertain and will make me interact with an audience.
Message: Posted by: Irfaan Kahan (Nov 23, 2009 11:50PM)
Yes, but who says he's doing it for a lay audience? I practice card flourishes everyday, from cuts to catches. The only "flourish" I perform in real life is a pressure fan.

However, I still dedicate time from my life to master ever more fancy moves, for no other purpose than to show off to my fiance and friends which gives me no small amount of personal gratification.
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Nov 24, 2009 12:20AM)
Great stuff for those who care. But this is juggling. It's boring
Message: Posted by: Mathias Kersting (Nov 24, 2009 12:34AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 00:21, martin1025 wrote:
ZZzz its correct for me too. That is something that I will never understand about that type of excessive flourishing; I mean in real life there is no music when you are performing and really what can you possibly say when you juggle cards for 5 mins in real life.
[/quote]

I may be incorrect, but I think his main intention with this video was to share ideas that he's discovered/experimented with to other flourishers. A lot of card-flourishers seem to just do the same stuff and not move forward.

[quote]
On 2009-11-24 00:21, martin1025 wrote:
it is not entertaining for more than 30 seconds. The first reaction from a layman might be wow; but then it becomes boring.
[/quote]

And maybe just executing sleights and not using them in a context of a trick will get the same response.

For people to appreciate flourishes, the moves shouldn't just be executed, but routined,choreographed, and be performed with emotion (performing jugglers, even Cirque de Solei come to mind). Like methods and sleights need to be used in context with presentational ploys and such to be entertaining and amaze.

However flourishes are eye-candy. Magic connects with people on a more deeper emotional level.
Message: Posted by: satoeri (Nov 24, 2009 01:04AM)
My question to those who would go on to say that this is just "juggling" and "boring," or "not entertaining" is, why can't we just give props to someone who has obviously put in the time to master a certain skill with our mutually loved playing cards? Sure it may not be "close up card magic" but, there is something that can be learnt from everything. Maybe there is an actual sleight you are wanting to practice, master, and perform with in one of your shows, but feel it is just too difficult. Well, looking at a video like this could be used as inspiration to keep trying.

If anything, this can be viewed as art, which the majority of close up magicians will claim they are doing with their magic as well.

Less hating, more loving please. Step outside of the box and try to throw away the stubborness.
Message: Posted by: Mary Mowder (Nov 24, 2009 01:11AM)
The Cave Paintings at Lascaux are Eye Candy so is Ballet and yet they can connect on a deep emotional level.

Two card Monte not so much. It all depends on the Eye Candy and the Magic.

Irfaan Kahan, I know what you mean. I work on flourishes even though the art has long since left me in the dust. I still love it and I enjoy watching others do it well.

He obviously does take his flourishes seriously. that's what makes him and others like him great.
We don't all have to do the same things.

It's not boring, but it may be in the wrong section.

-Mary Mowder
Message: Posted by: Irfaan Kahan (Nov 24, 2009 01:30AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 02:04, satoeri wrote:
My question to those who would go on to say that this is just "juggling" and "boring," or "not entertaining" is, why can't we just give props to someone who has obviously put in the time to master a certain skill with our mutually loved playing cards? Sure it may not be "close up card magic" but, there is something that can be learnt from everything. Maybe there is an actual sleight you are wanting to practice, master, and perform with in one of your shows, but feel it is just too difficult. Well, looking at a video like this could be used as inspiration to keep trying.

If anything, this can be viewed as art, which the majority of close up magicians will claim they are doing with their magic as well.

Less hating, more loving please. Step outside of the box and try to throw away the stubborness.
[/quote]

Exactly
Message: Posted by: martin1025 (Nov 24, 2009 02:10AM)
[quote]
However, I still dedicate time from my life to master ever more fancy moves, for no other purpose than to show off to my fiance and friends which gives me no small amount of personal gratification.
[/quote]
If that is what drives you to do that type of flourishing that is fine; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I was just stating my opinion as far as how entertaining it was. Keep in mind I love cards and I am always excited when there is something new or original. However if to me, a person who loves anything card magic and gambling related, it is boring after about 30 seconds (even with nice music) how do you think the people you perform this for might feel.



[quote]
I may be incorrect, but I think his main intention with this video was to share ideas that he's discovered/experimented with to other flourishers. A lot of card-flourishers seem to just do the same stuff and not move forward.
[/quote]
The purpose of magic is to create effects that are deceptive, entertaining, and that have audience interaction. I can see that moving forward. However, I am having a hard time saying the same about flourishing. Flourishing will NEVER make an audience react the same way an actual magic performance can. Flourishing cannot create audience interaction, an engaging story, and the illusion that what can't be happening is happening. To me that type of Flourishing says this to it's audience "hey watch this repetitive motion, I will not talk, and you do not take part in this presentation."
[quote]
And maybe just executing sleights and not using them in a context of a trick will get the same response.
[/quote]
I am with you on this one. I prefer when a sleight is shown to be practical in the context of an effect. I like when something is shown to be practical. For example I have yet to find a motivation to learn the antifaro. The same thing is true about that type of flourishing (at least for me).
[quote]
Magic connects with people on a more deeper emotional level.
[/quote]



[quote]
On 2009-11-24 02:04, satoeri wrote:
If anything, this can be viewed as art
[/quote]
Yes, but it's a different type of art. You said so yourself it is not card magic. Flourishing is basically card juggling. It does takes practice and it can be difficult at times.

[quote]
which the majority of close up magicians will claim they are doing with their magic as well.
[/quote]
That is incorrect (no opinion here, this is a fact). The majority of successful magicians do not use flourishing in that way. Certainly not in the way shown in the video.

[quote]
Less hating, more loving please. Step outside of the box and try to throw away the stubborness.
[/quote]
Stubborness? I really have no idea what are you talking about. I was stating an opinion. As mentioned above, I know it takes skill in many cases a lot of skill. But as I said before, it's like the type of skill for a move like the antifaro (the one were you spring the cards that is).

I am going to sleep now.
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Nov 24, 2009 02:32AM)
Nice apartment
Message: Posted by: Irfaan Kahan (Nov 24, 2009 02:41AM)
Good point, Martin. That's fair enough.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Nov 24, 2009 03:43AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 00:50, Irfaan Kahan wrote:
The only "flourish" I perform in real life is a pressure fan.
[/quote]
Dude-- if you have any definition of "real life" that includes a card flourish or even a card trick, you really need to redefine your priorities in life! ;)

SEY
Message: Posted by: Roger Kelly (Nov 24, 2009 05:17AM)
As my posts have been brought to question, I suppose I'd better chip in. However, to be honest, I'm finding it difficult to add to Martin1025's additional comments as he's pretty much summed it all up.

I'm far from stubborn Satoeri, and frankly I am questioning your use of the word here. The geezer is quite clearly talented and the best of luck to him.

Sadly, he [i]lost[/i] me before 30 seconds were up and I found myself reaching for the razor blade tin.

Incidentally, the videography is superb and [b]is[/b] worth massive praise from me, as someone who recognises that particular art.
Message: Posted by: fingerjack (Nov 24, 2009 07:16AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 06:17, Roger Kelly wrote:
Incidentally, the videography is superb and IS worth massive praise from me, as someone who recognises that particular art.
[/quote]
Wow, and I thought the videography was shameful compared to the skill level of the flourishes. In fact, the worst thing about the video was camera work.

That aside, great video! I wasn't bored at all. I love both flourishes and magic and I can see both points. Just a matter of taste.

Someone else here already said it. Just when you thought you were getting good, along comes someone that gives you a reality slap. Amazing how something can give you inspiration and make you want to give up at the same time.

Great stuff...thanks for posting. This thread however won my vote for the worst titled thread I have ever seen here at the Café, until I watched the video. And wow, it was on YouTube!
Message: Posted by: rochaz (Nov 24, 2009 07:19AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 03:32, DStachowiak wrote:
Nice apartment
[/quote]
:bigsmile:

rochaz
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Nov 24, 2009 07:55AM)
'This thread however won my vote for the worst titled thread I have ever seen here at the Café, until I watched the video. And wow, it was on YouTube!"

Yeah, a bit cryptic. Sorry, it just said what I felt. I thought the whole thing was excellent- including the staging, music, etc.- seen much worse from seasoned performers. I am not a flourish fan (no pun) but was able to really enjoy this. Who knows, this guy may have some great magic chops or be a surgeon at his day job. What he can do may be boring to some, but the world is full of people who are bored most of the time- it's largely attitude...

Jim
Message: Posted by: Rudy (Nov 24, 2009 10:49AM)
I thought this was absolutely great. Even loved the music. I can only imagine the many years of practice that went into all that. Well worth it.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Nov 24, 2009 04:41PM)
The guy is incredible; wish I could do a quarter of the stuff he did. I would imagine he knows better than doing five minutes of flourishes for a lay audience. The nitty-gritty is - the guy's incredible. HL.
Message: Posted by: Mathias Kersting (Nov 24, 2009 04:43PM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 03:10, martin1025 wrote:
The purpose of magic is to create effects that are deceptive, entertaining, and that have audience interaction. I can see that moving forward. However, I am having a hard time saying the same about flourishing. Flourishing will NEVER make an audience react the same way an actual magic performance can. Flourishing cannot create audience interaction, an engaging story, and the illusion that what can't be happening is happening. To me that type of Flourishing says this to it's audience "hey watch this repetitive motion, I will not talk, and you do not take part in this presentation."
[/quote]

Of course flourishing is not magic and can't produce the same results. And it doesn't have to; it's an art of skillful manipulation of playing cards. Just as juggling is a skillful manipulative art.

I can be quite happily entertained by a pro-juggler doing a great routine - showing his passion, emotion, creativeness, and skill. He may not be talking, and I may not be taking part, but I don't care because I'm entertained. There's no reason why card-flourishing can't be entertaining as well. Jerry Cestowski and De'Vo seem both successful with there shows.
Message: Posted by: ProgrammingAce (Nov 24, 2009 06:59PM)
Card magic is boring because it's not football. In an NFL game, you'll have 80,000 fans screaming, cheering, drinking... I mean, when is the last time you saw someone with a giant foam finger at a David Copperfield show? Magic might be fun for, like, 30 seconds, but football keeps an audience going for a full 2+ hours.

If you really want to entertain a crowd, you should put down the playing cards and start playing football.


I personally enjoy performing magic. I'm not going to fault someone else for enjoying flurishing... Particularly someone who has obviously devoted a significant portion of their lives to the art. I'm going to take that video as presented, and enjoy it.
Message: Posted by: Bean (Nov 26, 2009 12:52PM)
[quote]

To me that type of Flourishing says this to it's audience "hey watch this repetitive motion, I will not talk, and you do not take part in this presentation."[/quote]

And Terpsichore stands in a corner, weeping silently. Your definition fits dance, juggling, motion pictures, theatrical productions, concerts (voice and orchestra), all spectator sports and most magic with the exception of close-up. Spectators, for the most part, spectate, they don't interact with the performer. Whether the "distant" performance mystifies you, astounds you, moves you to tears, makes you laugh or makes you go, "Wow! I could never do that!" or does any or all of the above while interacting with the performer close-up, it's a success. Football bores me to absolute tears, but on the rare occasions when I'm forced into watching, I can still admire the effort, the grace and the athletic ability. I enjoy ballet; my husband hates it. When it's on, though, he'll sit through it and afterwards tell me how amazed he was by the jetes. Different strokes for different folks and all, but c'mon! Let's not dismiss something out of hand as "boring" (meaning, "Personally, I don't like it so it's not worthwhile.")

P.S. As a juggler and a long-time Flying Karamozov Brothers fan, :P to all those juggling haters out there. ;) If you think juggling ain't interactive, you've never seen the FKB.
Message: Posted by: Mary Mowder (Nov 26, 2009 02:30PM)
Well said "old" Bean!

Sorry, I could not resist! I could not agree with you more.

-Mary Mowder
Message: Posted by: keeblem (Nov 28, 2009 02:14AM)
[quote]
On 2009-11-24 01:20, Roger Kelly wrote:
Great stuff for those who care. But this is juggling. It's boring
[/quote]
It's art. Some people do find art boring. I believe they're called philistines.

Mark

P.S. Hey, no offence! :)
Message: Posted by: julieannjohnson (Nov 28, 2009 08:04PM)
Wow, I am surprised to see all the hating on this video. From my point of view it was not boring.

I think of card flourishing as the cranberry relish on the dry turkey slices of card magic. A whole program of flourishes would entrance me, but then, I have been known to eat cranberry relish straight.

Card magic without any flourishes? "Pick a card, any card." C'mon, folks -- that is boring dry turkey.

A card act -- like a silk act -- is built of rhythm, personality, and mystery. This man was demonstrating the rhythm portion of the program.

Now, imagine having his kind of flourish control added to the wit and stage persona of a Cardini. That would be some card magic I'd like to see.