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Topic: Oh God, not another Derren Brown thread!
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Nov 28, 2009 03:41AM)
Yup, brace yourself.

I have the Manchurian Approach DVD; set am getting ready to try some of this. The one thing I noticed,
I see that Derren is using hypnosis, but doesn't do the whole "sleep...1, 2, wide awake" thing. The volunteer seems to be not in a trance.

This interests me because I don't want to state the words, "hypnosis" or "sleep" and "wake" in performance, but use it as the underlying method.

I have pm'ed Anthony Jacquin about it and I'm sure he will give wonderful insight, but how do you guy explain this form of hypnosis?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 28, 2009 08:10AM)
Why not just learn hypnosis if that's what you want to do. Why would you want to be Derren Brown?

Derrens TV show is highly edited. I assume you don't have a tv show? No I didn't think so.

Also be aware of the law around hypnosis. To attempt street hypnosis or impromtu in public places is asking for trouble. If you live in the UK. I don't know what South Africa is like.

And finally get some proper training. Or learn some pseudo hypnosis stunts.
Message: Posted by: MatthewH (Nov 28, 2009 09:26AM)
Hey Mac - take a look at James Tripp's (UK hypnotist) blog http://www.hypnosiswithouttrance.com/
The name says it all, and could be along the lines of what you're looking for.
Cheers! matt
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Nov 28, 2009 11:03AM)
I don't want to be derren brown. I don't want to outright state that all the stuff they are seeing is "merely" hypnosis. I like the spectators to not have a clue on the method.

Thanks Matt I will look at it!
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Nov 28, 2009 11:29AM)
Mind punisher,

you seem to be a very angry man. Anyway down here theres not much in the way of that sort of training. I only have overseas rescources to learn from such as Anthony.

Anyway thank you for the reply...sleeeeeep! When you wake up you will find that rather large chip on your shoulder removed and replaced by happy thoughts..1.2 wakey wakey.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 28, 2009 11:37AM)
Actually what ""seems" is your perception its inside your head. So if an angry man is running around in it then its your head.

I might be a bit bored though. All these Derren clones. (your own thread title sums it up) And if you want to learn hypnosis then do it properly.

Whats angry about that?

Who knows perhaps one day incompetence with hypnosis will land you in trouble...

And maybe then YOU will wake up.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Nov 28, 2009 11:48AM)
Hi The Mac,

I am away in Austria running a course on such things right now. I will get back to you in full on Monday. There are many ways of using hypnosis covertly. I will answer your other questions too when I get back.

Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Nov 28, 2009 11:56AM)
James Tripp has some very useful information for someone just diving into this area from what I've seen so far. It's low risk at FREE (!) though I'm not sure how one can trademark the term 'hypnosis without trance'(how does one trademark or patent a common phrase or state of mind?), but that is neither here nor there. He has some useful insights.

I would agree with MP that it serves one very well to get some formal training (hands on, real time experience) and with that in mind ANYONE can learn to use the power of suggestion, waking trance states and even pseudo hypnosis or body magic to share some really incredible experiences with your participants.

The body of hypnosis literature and solid instruction available and outpouring currently is in the mega-volumes with a single click; the proficient trainers in this field are legions. Ormond's Encyclopedia has a few useful chapters on the subject of waking hypnosis and Orville Meyer's 'Telepathy in Action' is perhaps the greatest example of this I've ever seen or used.

With regards to pseudo hypnosis, Fraser Parker has a wonderful little work titled, 'Struck Dumb' (formally titled, 'Stuck to the Floor, Unable to Speak) which is available via Lybrary.com for a very modest price. You can see a video of the performance here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS55wkAqNiY

Expanded versions, methods and ideas for this are appearing in my long overdue 'Thought Veil.' In it I've included my own methods and discoveries in this field and for as much trancework as I do, "eyes open, waking trance states" and the power of suggestion is one of my first loves and most useful body of work.

Derren's 'Voodoo doll' routine is (not surprisingly) not his from what I've found in my research, but nonetheless, what you see in that and other videos by him is easily accomplished through simple suggestions and the premise of "waking hypnosis."

Though met with a more mentalism slant, Luke Jermay's book 'Building Blocks' and '7 Deceptions' are both useful works for ideas regarding suggestion and how to use it. It's not a far leap from seeing the lines on someone's palm beginning to spin and finding their arm locked in place, eyes sealed shut, unable to move, speak or remember their own name, eyes open visualizations/hallucinations and other phenomena.

Best of luck,
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Nov 28, 2009 01:15PM)
Thanks mind punisher,

I hope we can all be as great and all knowing as you.

TT2, Thanks you for that insightful write-up. Derren has used bits from other people, even exposed magic on TV. We all learn from first copying then branching out to our own stuff (well most of us anyway).

I have created a lot of mentalism routines that would be stronger/cleaner with covert hypnosis. I mentioned Derren in the title because we are all familar with him so it makes a good example. Does this mean I want to be a derren clone? Of course not, my work is centred around close up magic which leads to mindreading.

I want to be known as a magician who can do magic with the mind as well as physical objects. I don't want the spectators to hang everything on hypnosis. I hope this makes my intentions clearer.

Thanks to all.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 28, 2009 01:35PM)
>>>>>Thanks mind punisher,

I hope we can all be as great and all knowing as you.<<<<<

We both know that's impossible. But at least you are smart enough to thank me.
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Nov 28, 2009 02:28PM)
...and you're stupid enough not to notice sarcasm.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Nov 28, 2009 02:42PM)
(thats so funny)

Message: Posted by: magician2121 (Feb 9, 2010 07:35PM)
Derren uses NLP or Neuro Linguistic Programming.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 9, 2010 11:35PM)
On 2010-02-09 20:35, magician2121 wrote:
Derren uses NLP or Neuro Linguistic Programming.

And you know that...how?
Are you a certified NLP trainer? A certified master practitioner? A certified practitioner?
Or are you sure he uses NLP because he says so?

I know a guy who does a living and dead test. He says he can figure it out from Voodoo.
Do you really thank that's what he's doing, or is he just talking about Voodoo as a form of misdirection?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Feb 10, 2010 12:36AM)
Rremember, just because an entertainer says he's using hypnosis or claims "hypnosis" does not really mean it's hypnosis. Magicians have been using "hypnosis" or "a trance" just for effect for years as a premise. Same for pseudo hypnosis and the like...learn and know the difference.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 10, 2010 10:36AM)
I agree, Mindpro.

Years ago, I saw a magician bring out his assistant to do a levitation. He said he was going to put her into a hypnotic trance where she would appear to be in a deep sleep faster than any person in history. Two other assistants held her so she wouldn't fall to the ground.

There were no passes with his hands and no "Look into my eyes" instructions. Instead, he pulled out a pack of pasteboards and said, "Pick a card. Any card."

Immediately she collapsed into what was supposedly a deep hypnotic trance. About a third of the audience was laughing hysterically and a guy sitting near me said, "I'm never going to do a card trick again."

Personally, although the performer said he was putting her into a hypnotic trance, I have my doubts...
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Feb 10, 2010 10:50AM)
>>>And you know that...how?
Are you a certified NLP trainer? A certified master practitioner? A certified practitioner?
Or are you sure he uses NLP because he says so? <<<<

I know some of the most respected names in NLP and theythought Derren was real

I think all NLPers should be certified.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 10, 2010 07:30PM)
And MP, are they also world-class mentalists? A good magician and mentalist, like DB can easily fool a NLPer or a scientist.

I was assuming that because 2121 used a nick where he called himself a magician that he was one. My fault or assuming that people here would also know some magick and mentalism.

Silly me! Assuming that on a forum called "The Magic Café...."
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Feb 11, 2010 04:57AM)
One of the biggest names in NLP thought Brown was genuine I had to tell him he was fake. He was about to use him as an example in his marketing as a real example of what covert persuasion could achieve.

After I told him he still thought it was possible to achieve some of the things he had seen Derren do with NLP.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 11, 2010 08:00AM)
Great point MP, we see this all the time from both NLP-ers AND psychologists. And lets be honest... some magicians also. When DB did the one about the 3 marketing guys beong influenced many in the magic world (included highly experienced magicians)believed it to be utterly genuine!
And yes, IF you should ever reveal to one of these NLP-ers or psychologists that it's a trick many will still believe there's something in it.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 11, 2010 10:03AM)
I agree, MP. On another board, some hypnotists/NLPers with NO magic or mentalist experience, not only insist that DB is using hypnosis and NLP, but get angry when I tell them it's untrue. They come up with elaborate explanations or his techniques, and when I point out that DB virtually always succeeds and ask for their success rate doing the same thing, they get even more upset.

People who are out of their areas of expertise shouldn't comment, but they do. Instead of seeing hypnosis and NLP as tools, for some people it is a virtual religion. They think they can save people with a regression, sub-modalities, or Jesus, and woe unto those who dare question the holy scriptures.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Feb 11, 2010 10:53AM)
I love it when they get angry though. I find it is a human trait found in all areas of life. I am going to lock myself away and stop going to business networking events to avoid NLP and Life coaches...

Someone should tell them they've been sold a sick puppy...no one wants them but they believe there is a market...