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Topic: Penn & Teller
Message: Posted by: keven (Jun 20, 2003 01:46AM)
Do you guys find Penn & Teller's Trick, scams and such too much work for "on the spot magic" Do you find it to cruel to do to the guy that ask's to see a trick?
:swordbasket:
Message: Posted by: Ty Argo (Jun 20, 2003 01:23PM)
Which of P&T's effects are you referring to? Some are fine, some are way overboard for an informal performance. It depends on your style, the effect in question, the spect, ect.
Message: Posted by: R2 (Jun 22, 2003 11:09AM)
They both released a book "How to play with your food"/Villard Books.

Some of the business in there is more tame and non-lethal... a few of them would work in an impromptu setting...

Check it out!

It's too bad I missed the
"Asparagus Valley Cultural Society"
Message: Posted by: Bill (Jun 23, 2003 10:05AM)
Just my two cents, but I refuse to buy or see anything done by Penn and Teller. These clowns expose more magic secrets then the Masked Magician. It's apparent they have little regard for the the art of magic, and fancy themselves as "rebels".

It baffles me they are popular with magicians. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Jun 23, 2003 10:10AM)
You obviously haven't seen their live show. I've seen them perform live, twice, over the years. It's always a great show!
Message: Posted by: Bill (Jun 23, 2003 10:23AM)
Yes I have seen their live show. It was good, however that same week on TV they exposed the cross cut force. Since then I've seen many things exposed. So for me, I choose not to support them with my wallet. :thumbsdown:
Message: Posted by: Ty Argo (Jun 23, 2003 11:44AM)
Bill-
I can understand where you are coming from, but the way they "reveal" secrets is entirely planned to be ineffective. They "exposed" several sleights, then five minutes later fooled the entire audience with a routine using nothing but the sleights they just "revealed". They gave away the cups and balls so fast that nobody in that audience could tell you how it was done anyways. [i]That was the idea![/i] These revelations were planned to be non-revelations.

I say that if you're that worried about a stupid cross-cut force being seen on TV, learn a NEW FORCE! As far as P&T being worse than Valentino... come on.
Message: Posted by: Bill (Jun 23, 2003 10:29PM)
Oh excuse me, I didn't realize that it's ok to expose magic, just as long as your being entertaining.

I don't think you advance magic at all by exposing the tricks, and making magic and magicians the butt of your jokes.

But like I said, this is my opinion. :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Ty Argo (Jun 23, 2003 11:07PM)
As I just said, they are technichally not exposing magic, as they are still fooling everyone with the moves they "exposed". It is ineffective exposure... purposely ineffective exposure. (if you can call it that)

How exactly are magicans and magic remotely the butt of P&T's jokes? I'm honestly interested.

You are completely entitled to that, as am I. I do not expect either of us to change our minds on the matter, but I'm simply trying to show you that there is another side to the argument.
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Jun 24, 2003 05:52PM)
Bill I can understand your feelings exactly. Penn & Teller make an act of being
"charmingly obnoxious". While I agree the other side of the argument needs to be heard I thought the laughing bit was a bit ungracious.

In any case, when you ask most people about Penn & Teller, their response is "who?" heck most even respond to Blaine and Copperfield in that manner.

The sad point is that, no matter how
"famous", they are only famous to a few. I continue to use the cross cut force with abandon. In fact I've done things in shows when the night before it had been exposed by that masked guy.

People have a short memory. Our profession and politicians both depend upon it.

Penn & Teller will always be to magic as Howard Stern is to radio or another way, as tin foil is to fillings. :)
Message: Posted by: exodus (Jul 6, 2003 12:23AM)
Penn and Teller have their own way of exposure. They expose things in a way that very few people would be offended. Laymen have so short of an attention span for this art that P&T have learned to take advantage of it. I've done magic for years and was amazed by their Clear Plastic Cups and Balls routine. The Cross Cut Force? How can you get upset when that's revealed? It's not the greatest. If they revealed the Slip Force or Classic Force or 10-20 or even the 2x Cut then we may be in trouble, but not over the Cross Cut force. I've never even understood how that can fool someone. The first time I saw it I knew what was going on. Let them reveal it. They have a style that has made them famous. Let them be famous. Instead of worrying about how a beginners force was ruined, and probaly used again in the same show, work on your own material and don't let it bother you. Fox revealed the Raven, 2 Card Monte and a good number of my effects, so what. I still do the same effects. Laymen don't usually watch those shows anymore anyways. Magicians are so easy to annoy. People get mad at you if you figure out a trick and don't want to buy it afterwards. What happened to doing magic for the fun of it. It's all been watered down by "He used camera's," or "they revealed that."
Message: Posted by: Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie (Jul 6, 2003 03:04PM)
To get back to the original point, I think the principle of not making a spectator look bad is a good, solid principle. Penn & Teller are able to make exceptions to this principle, but very few magicians are. Their delivery makes it possible for them to do more than just get away with it. They do very well with it! I hear Gazzo can be very hard on some audience members, and he's also thriving. Every form of entertainment has its "rules of engagement" in every aspect of a performance, and every one of those rules has performers who successfully break those rules. Those who can successfully work outside the rules are rare.
Message: Posted by: CardFan (Aug 13, 2003 01:14PM)
Speaking of P&T I think that their TV show really is something that everyone should look at.
Message: Posted by: chriscox (Aug 16, 2003 03:52AM)
Back to the original point, most of the effects in their books I find are more important for inspiration and good reading. Some clever effects to work with, some great views on performing and some great reveals...I love the 3 of Clubs Pizza!
Message: Posted by: MagicMaker (Aug 24, 2003 04:28AM)
I bought one of their books and learned how to bend and break a spoon using the "break". I used this for years. I would sneak a spoon into the bathroom and make the "break". Then I would bend and break the spoon at a restaurant or at someone’s house. I never got much reaction except for stares and silence. I think it was because people believe it's real and don't know how to react.

Actually I seem to get better reactions doing ESP/telekinesis type effects than magical effects. Maybe it's because of my quiet personality. People have asked me so many times if I'm using my mind to do these things.
Message: Posted by: DanielGreenWolf (Aug 27, 2003 10:03PM)
Magicians are often the easiest people fooled...

For years, magicians believed that Penn & Teller were exposing magical secrets and magicians told other magicians to be angry about it and they WERE! I've seen their show live and multiple shows, interviews, etc. and their love of magic far exceeds most of us just because of the chances they take. Even Johnny Thompson admits that they're some of the greatest guys to work with. They don't expose, they make us think they do and an audience think they will, and that's priceless.

Anything with Penn & Teller gets my money (I even have a copy of "Penn & Teller Get Killed") and their being one of my initial influences helped me love magic more and I'm thankful for that.

--Malak
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Rice (Sep 1, 2003 09:55PM)
My comment on P&T: I like Teller. The one who never talks. :smiles:
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Sep 1, 2003 11:26PM)
Agree, Teller is cool. :cuteangel:
Message: Posted by: mattpuglisi (Sep 2, 2003 05:26PM)
Teller is one of the most talented magicians in the world. Nuff said.
Message: Posted by: mystic shriner (Sep 2, 2003 10:42PM)
I spent some time with Penn at the Jay Marshall Roast last November in Chicago. The first thing out of his mouth was, "I hate magicians, are you a magician?" I thought it was really funny. From talking to him that night I think that what he hates, as I do, are some of the politics in the magic circles, and the weird twists on the idea of not showing how a trick works. I don't believe in revealing how tricks work and, at the same time, it's really all about misdirection, isn't it? I don't think all their ideas are good for "on the spot" stuff, but some are so easy you just have to do them when you have the chance!

By the way, if you ever get a chance to meet Penn, he's really a great guy...and I'm not just saying that as some star-struck fan. I'm not a big fan, however, I definitely appreciate their style, very good "vaudville re-born". They're kind of like the "Three Stooges of Magic." Of course the audience member/victim they choose is the "third stooge." :baby:
Message: Posted by: Joe Russell (Oct 11, 2005 02:54PM)
Penn and Teller are the greatest magicians and performers to grace the face of the earth!!!!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: español jeff (Oct 11, 2005 07:38PM)
I'm in the camp that agrees that Penn and Teller are pretty incredible. A big part of their charm is that they don't take themselves (or the magic profession) too seriously. They have a lot of fun with it. And part of that fun (as has already been said) is exposing an effect and then totally pulling something over on the audience using the same effect. In the end, I'm not sure the audience has bought the "exposure" anyway.
Message: Posted by: Small-hands Luke (Oct 12, 2005 04:30AM)
Penn and Teller's "exposure" is perfect for proving the age old theory: people are stupid (and I don't just mean "spectators" or "non-magicians") especially when you take them out of their element and put them up in front of other people. Their mind goes in completely different directions.

It is for this reason that I don't perform overlong tricks or tricks that are too complicated for the spectator; and the reason that I almost always go through what happened in the trick before the revelation (assuming it fits the trick). You see people on even professional magic videos forgetting something as simple as what their card is! Other times, after a trick, they're confused as to what the effect was. Examples can be seen on these forums with the "Twisting the Aces is boring" thread and in Michael Ammar's ETMCM 1 at the end of the ace trick. You can feel that the spectators didn't remember if the aces had been there to begin with.

With all this in mind, how are they going to see your pass even if you expose it to them one minute before but misdirect them properly?
Message: Posted by: nucinud (Oct 17, 2005 03:11PM)
And they are very nice guys to boot.
Message: Posted by: PennyMagic4U (Oct 18, 2005 12:25PM)
I have and will continue to spend my money on seeing them perform. They are entertainers and darn good at it.
Message: Posted by: abc (Oct 23, 2005 12:22PM)
I cannot exactly recall where I heard Eugene Burger say this but he said something about Penn and Teller "exposing magic" and it was hilarious. Thumbs up to their magic show and their TV show although the last season has not been as great as I expected.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Oct 23, 2005 08:51PM)
To hell with anyone who exposes magic in any way, shape, form...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2005 08:57PM)
When you get right down to it, they expose a lot less magic than they say they expose. More magic is exposed every day by bad magicians performing when they have no business performing.

More harm is done to our art by those same guys, mostly who gripe about P&T.

By the way NOBODY takes our art more seriously than Teller himself. He is fantastically talanted and so by the way is Penn.

As far as the entertainment value of what they do, well it speaks for itself.

Personally I enjoy them imensley. I wish them continued good fortune.
Message: Posted by: Philosophry (Oct 23, 2005 10:53PM)
I've only seen Penn and Teller in the TV show they had over here in the UK a few years back, plus a few TV appearances since then. From what I saw, they only revealed a few simple principles and then went on to perform some impressive tricks. They're entertaining to watch, and for me, much more entertainly that magicians who dance around the stage gurning to music whilst perfoming.
Message: Posted by: abc (Oct 24, 2005 12:45AM)
The point is that they do not really "expose" the tricks they do. Come on the cups and balls routine that get mentioned so often was so entertaining and fast the audience still had no idea. Not even Eugene Burger thinks that is exposing the secret so come on. Besides do you really think laymen think the lemon or whatever appears under the cup magically and that you didn't put it there? If they do think that they need to visit some sort of psychologist.
You present it as "magic" They know there is an explanation but they have no idea how you did it. That is the whole point of entertaining magic and that is what makes them so good. After the cups and balls "presentation" they did the audience still had no more of an idea than they had before they "exposed" the secret. They were written about as exposers of magic and I have spoken to numerous magicians who are talking anout Penn and Teller exposing magic and then these people have never even seen the show. They just heard about it. I wonder how much of that is true here.
Besides there magic Penn is a fine musician and so is Teller.
Message: Posted by: kramerica2010 (Oct 24, 2005 05:43PM)
Did anyone happen to catch them on an old rerun of Saturday Night Live? After the spec took a card penn said,"Now I will do a fake overhand shuffle and a charlier pass." There were about 3 chuckles in the audience. I thought it was funny. Not really exposing
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2005 12:24PM)
If that is exposing then Bill Malone exposes every time he does Sam the Bellhop when he said " he even took a walk down crimp street".

Come on this is nowhere near exposure!!
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Oct 25, 2005 12:42PM)
Who the cap fits, let them wear it...
Message: Posted by: kramerica2010 (Oct 29, 2005 10:32PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-25 13:42, Gede Nibo wrote:
Who the cap fits, let them wear it...
[/quote] ?
Message: Posted by: Bill (Oct 29, 2005 11:10PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-23 21:51, Gede Nibo wrote:
To hell with anyone who exposes magic in any way, shape, form...
[/quote]

Good Grief! You guys just make excuses for these jerks. Exposure is exposure. What's with the "yea, they expose magic. BUT THEY DO IT SO GOOD!" attitude? I heard nothing but complaining when the Masked Magician exposed secrets. So how come P & T get a pass? Isn't that being hypocritical?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 30, 2005 10:47PM)
OK first off I NEVER complained about that masked idiot. He was a flash in the pan and is way gone.

Second my arguement is that P&T don't really expose anything anyhow.

Third as I stated, more magic is exposed by performers who have NO business performing in the first place because they are SO bad. THIS is what we should real against but they are encouraged here in the Café.

Lastly P&T are GREAT for magic in general. They say they expose more than they do, and bottome line are fun to watch.

Let it go
Message: Posted by: Parson Smith (Oct 31, 2005 03:35PM)
I have never seen P&T live and have never met them.
I find myself enjoying maybe half of what they do.
I watched their shows on HBO and found about half of them insightful and entertaining.
In the past, I bought a couple of their books and found them to be about 10% useful and about 15% entertaining.
When I have seen them perform on TV, less than half of what they do lacks crassness and vulgarity.
You do the math.
Peace,
Parson
Message: Posted by: Will Gordon (Nov 15, 2005 01:35PM)
The greatest trick the Devil ever performed was convincing people that he didn’t exist. I believe P & T are doing the same when they are performing their “exposing magic” routine. Just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 18, 2005 10:42AM)
So now they are the devil?
Message: Posted by: Static (Nov 19, 2005 10:11PM)
I just recently say P&T's underwater special, and I have to say, it sucked. I couldn't finish it. When they revealed metamorphasis, and also when Aaron Carter sang and danced underwater, it ruined all chances of me enjoying it. I will say that I must give them credit for being world renowned magicians, and having ellaborate stage shows and tv specials, but this magic wasnt it for me. The utmost respect for all magi, but no thanks to this tv special!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2005 01:01AM)
I was a little less than impressed with the underwater special as well.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Nov 26, 2005 08:28AM)
[quote]
On 2003-06-23 12:44, Ty Argo wrote:
Bill-
I can understand where you are coming from, but the way they "reveal" secrets is entirely planned to be ineffective. They "exposed" several sleights, then five minutes later fooled the entire audience with a routine using nothing but the sleights they just "revealed". They gave away the cups and balls so fast that nobody in that audience could tell you how it was done anyways. [i]That was the idea![/i] These revelations were planned to be non-revelations.

I say that if you're that worried about a stupid cross-cut force being seen on TV, learn a NEW FORCE! As far as P&T being worse than Valentino... come on.
[/quote]

Umm, That "Stupid" cross cut force is a staple in the reportoire of none less than Michael Close, as well as many other professionals of outstanding reputations.
When then did it become stupid? When did it become worthy of exposure? When did it become part of the current rejectamenta of magic? Perhaps when P&T decided it to be thus?
Message: Posted by: Magic Spank (Nov 30, 2005 04:08AM)
I am not a fan of Penn and Teller.

Their bit gets old after 15 or 20 years. Surprisingly their suits never go out of style.

Penn has a picture in his house of Jesus on the cross. You see it as you first enter the house. But it's one of these pictures that is really composed of other things. And when you get very close to it you can see that it is made up of hardcore pornographic images. For anyone who remembers, there was a picture done like that of Johnny Depp for Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. (not porn though) Great concept but too confrontational for my taste. Mocking a religion seems juvenile at the least.

I heard that Penn and Teller took the money for that special even though they had nothing planned. Because they couldn't really provide the show they told the netowrk it was going to cost a LOT more, thinking they would say ok.. NO. The network surprised them and said OK.. YES! At some point during that crap submarine vanish Penn even says, "you can't take the money back now". Something like that. So, they did it for the money and magic suffers.

Here's a magic secret not many magicians know... The magicians we see on TV are only there because NOBODY ELSE TAPED A SHOW. David Blaine had a special in the can for the network. That makes it easy to get on tv. A lot of magicians talk about a special but basically NONE ever actually put one on tape and submit it to a network.

How do I know all this?????

Las Vegas Magic Club every wednesday night baby

Plus I'm a genius ;)

Rob
Message: Posted by: kid iowa (Dec 6, 2005 05:13PM)
[quote]
On 2003-06-23 23:29, Bill wrote:
Oh excuse me, I didn't realize that it's ok to expose magic, just as long as your being entertaining.

I don't think you advance magic at all by exposing the tricks, and making magic and magicians the butt of your jokes.

But like I said, this is my opinion. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

As I recall, Dai Vernon exposed the french drop in his cups and balls routine. Everyone still seems to be cool with him.
Message: Posted by: Elliott Hodges (Dec 8, 2005 02:33PM)
I am a fan of penn and teller's style.
There cups and balls routine- very good skill wise.
And no the general public can't see how they do it even when they "tell" them.
But I remember the french bloke Etienne somebody doing a coin vanishing trick witrh three coins which he later told the audience were made of foil and then he lapped them after screwing them up.
He then repeated it with solid coins.
For that? He got chucked out the magic circle!!
And by the way Jay sankey also loves the Cross cut force and uses it a lot.
Elliott
Message: Posted by: adrianbent (Dec 10, 2005 09:29AM)
I grow tired often of "hardliners"... people who have absolute opinions, wether they be in politics, religion, or in this case magic. If one adopts the mantra: No exposure, never ever, no matter how small, no excuse!!! Then it becomes a short cut to thinking, they close their mind off, and they pass up many oppurtunities to grow.
Where it becomes a problem is when these ignorant policies hurts others; in this case - Teller, who feels alienated and "hates magicians" and with reason since there are those amongst us who are petty.
WHAT constitutes exposure? WHO decides? If the case is gray as is such here... why not give them the benefit of the doubt? Wouldn't that be the gentlemenly thing to do? It has been argued that their exposure isn't such since the audience is just as duped at the end. More importantly, the audience is entertained.
Penn and Teller are modern entertainers for a modern audience. I owe it to guys like this, and Harry Anderson, who brought magic out of black top hats, capes and canes and made it "street" - cons, scams and fun, in a modern fun kind of way. We owe it to them who keep magic alive and inspire new blood to continue on our wonderful craft. Not exposing magic is an ETHIC, not a RULE. It is something you feel and understand, and rationalize within your own value hierarchy. I don't expose magic, becuase I understand what would happen to "the greater good" as a result. I believe P&T understand this concept intimately. I believe a lot of good magicians do as well.
Message: Posted by: Jay Are (Dec 12, 2005 01:12AM)
Hey BILL, ever do a "SUCKER EFFECT"? Where you've exposed the "method" and shattered the illusion? Nuff said...
Message: Posted by: drkptrs1975 (Dec 17, 2005 09:38AM)
I saw them on the West Wing last Year, good episode. Our Inteligence has expose a plot by China to attack the US, and then these Yo-Yo's are too worried about two Magicians who burn the Americian Flag at the White House.
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Dec 30, 2005 12:30PM)
Penn and Teller really fall into a unique catagory all by themselves. they are not strictly magicians nor comedians and they certainly are NOT expossing any true secrets.

I don't think anyone watches something like the cups and balls and thinks that true magic is happening. they think some fancy slieghts are being used. P&T quickly showing those slights is really just bringing attention to how much skill it takes so peopel appreciate it all that much more. If you watch balet you don't say "How does that guy jump so high? is it a trick?" you just appreciate his skill. With something liek cups and balls it is the same thing, you appreciate the skill, not so much the idea that it is true magic.

P&T also are very entertaining and are great debunkers of a lot of B.S. concerning psychics and so on. If you think they are truley exposing effects then you are missing the point.
Message: Posted by: doublelift (Jan 21, 2006 09:49PM)
Almost every big Casino or Amusement park has a magic shop that will expose any trick you can think of for who ever has the money. These customers aren't serious students of the art or members of S.A.M. or I.B.M. If you can buy a set of plastic cups for less than $10.00 with a explanation and routine whats the difference. My last trip to Vegas a ticket for P&T was $75.00. They don't expose anything you can't find on the internet or in a library book. Most people buy this kind of magic find out its not a self working miracle see that it takes work and practice and forget all about it. We all know how music is made but we still enjoy the performance.
Message: Posted by: Mark Randall (Jan 23, 2006 07:40PM)
I just don't get those of you who are taking an absolutist" position (saying "any exposing of any effect is wrong").

I guess by that measure the stale old trick where you stuff a silk into your hand and reveal that it's turned into a hollow wooden egg, then peel the "hole" off the egg and break it to show it's a real egg is also exposing the valuable "wooden egg" gaff.

I just don't think that it's valid to take a rigid position on this. It does matter what is being exposed and the way it's done. So it's case by case. So far, all of P & T's stuff has been totally fine by me.

--- Mark
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jan 23, 2006 07:50PM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-30 23:47, Dannydoyle wrote:

Second my arguement is that P&T don't really expose anything anyhow.

[/quote]

Danny, why do you argue on most of your post?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 23, 2006 09:48PM)
Mike address the question as opposed to attacking me personally if it is not too much trouble for you ok?

If you have some sort of problem address it in a PM and spare the rest of the thread your silly barbs. None of them want to hear it. As a matter of fact I don't want to hear it either, I probably won't read the PM but it may make you feel better to write it anyhow.

A ponit to be considered is that any magic shop will sell you any trick or secret you want for the right price. We have been selling off our secrets for quite some time now. Almost any sponser on this site will sell you tricks with little knowlege if you are a magician or not.

To me this is worse than exposure, it borders on the oldest profession if you ask me.

Sorry if you feel that is an arguement Dynamike.
Then again anything that is different from what you think is an arguement aparantly
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jan 23, 2006 10:09PM)
I was not expecting you to loose your cool, Dan. :)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 23, 2006 10:29PM)
Then perhaps maybe you should think twice before posting sarcastic jabs at others?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jan 23, 2006 11:55PM)
[quote]
On 2006-01-23 23:29, Dannydoyle wrote:
Then perhaps maybe you should think twice before posting sarcastic jabs at others?
[/quote]

Don't take it serious, Dan. Relax, I'm just mentioning some easy comments. Feel better now? :)
Message: Posted by: ronincyberpunk (Jan 25, 2006 12:07PM)
I like them for their immense entertainment value. They are amazingly entertaining to watch. And for those who say Teller never speaks, you simply don't notice it usually. As I recall he does some voiceover for their shows or something, but his voice is startling.

Revealing tricks or not, I enjoy their duo.
Message: Posted by: Godel (Jan 27, 2006 09:25PM)
I like their Showtime show also...
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jan 28, 2006 09:40AM)
[quote]
On 2003-09-01 22:55, Jonathan Rice wrote:
My comment on P&T: I like Teller. The one who never talks. :smiles:
[/quote]

I remember The Simpsons;

PENN: (To Homer) I'm going to kill you!

TELLER: He's serious! I'm not the first Teller!
[quote]
On 2003-09-02 18:26, mattpuglisi wrote:
Teller is one of the most talented magicians in the world. Nuff said.
[/quote]

I liked his story in the "On The Road" book where he picks up a hitchhiker who's obviously functionally illilerate (more so than me for not knowing how to spell that) and rather than just drop him off at the exit actually takes him to his group home and does a magic trick for him (kid didn't understand what magic was) where he changed a scrap of newsprint into a twenty!

[quote]
On 2005-10-30 00:10, Bill wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-10-23 21:51, Gede Nibo wrote:
To hell with anyone who exposes magic in any way, shape, form...
[/quote]

Good Grief! You guys just make excuses for these jerks. Exposure is exposure. What's with the "yea, they expose magic. BUT THEY DO IT SO GOOD!" attitude? I heard nothing but complaining when the Masked Magician exposed secrets. So how come P & T get a pass? Isn't that being hypocritical?
[/quote]

So? Are we boycotting Mac King too?
Having said that; their belligerant (sp) attitude toward people's faith gets on my nerves.
Message: Posted by: Tyler_magic_skater (Jan 28, 2006 10:20PM)
I saw this forum was about Penn and Teller..... Just a little note, I did a benefit for Katrina Kids where Penn and Teller made I think a combined donation of 2500 dollars or so, something like that. We ended up raising around 13,500 dollars for the victims of Hurricane Katrina in the area... Major kudos to P&T!!!!
Message: Posted by: Acecardician (Feb 12, 2006 01:55AM)
Subject: Katrina Victims

The Society of American Magicians Magic Endowment Fund has made
provisions
to assist magicians who are victims of the recent hurricanes in the
Gulf Coast
and in Florida. To date eight people have received funds to help them
get a
new start. Many victims have still not been able to get to their old
homes to
access damage. Some magicians have lost their livelihoods and props.
All
assistance needs are confidential and are evaluated by the special
trustees and
payments are immediate. To receive aid, victims do not need to be
members of
the S.A.M. - There is more to be done. donations to the Red Cross and
other
agencies do not necessarily reach our magicians directly,- Send
donations to
S.A.M. Magic Endowment
Fund- 234 Towyn Court- Ambler PA 19002- All donations are tax
deductible.
Message: Posted by: doublelift (Feb 12, 2006 11:18AM)
If you think P&T are a danger to magic don't go to any major theme park or Vegas Casino. The multitude of Magic shops will expose anthing a tourist can afford. Which is worse P&T doing clear cups and balls so fast magicians can't follow it or a $9.95 set with written instuctions or a DVD? When was the last time you were carded at a Magic shop? Now the argument is there has to be new blood brought into the art/hobby. Exposure for sale or to entertain if you don't like one why is the other ok?
Message: Posted by: gibson99 (Feb 13, 2006 05:52AM)
Did any of you guys see the episode on smoking? I though they made some great points with evidence to back it up. Plus the fact that neither of them are smokers really helps to give them credibility.
Message: Posted by: teevtee (Feb 14, 2006 03:48PM)
I still don't get this "exposing secrets" argument.

First of all ANYBODY who has ANY interest in learning how ANY trick is done can find out that info in about 10 minutes on the web. They can buy tricks, buy books and DVDs or even visit sites dedicated to revealing methods of effects. This is NOT secret information, it is available to ANYONE just as it is available to us. So forget about the entire idea of "secrets" they just do not exist in the world of magic.

Secondly normal people are not idiots. They do not think you can magically make balls appear under cups or leviitate of the groud or put a coin thru a can... no, they assume that you are using tricks to fool them, and almost all of them are OK leaving it there. They think you posses SKILLS that they do not, not that you posses POWERS. They think you know slieghts and moves and have knowledge of equipment which they do not have or care to have... and they are correct. I can watch a great tennis player play a match and I can understand the concept of how they do it, but I cannot perform like them regardless of how much I understand how to play the game. Just because a layperson to magic understands that you are making moves does not mean that they can do it, even when armed with the knowledge of how it is done. This is why the clear cups and balls routine is so great. they TELL you how it is done and then proceed to fool you even with the clear cups. A few people may appreciate how hard those moves are and how smoothly a good magician can perform them... THIS IS A GOOD THING.

Stop trying to pretend you have special powers which NO ONE believes you have. Instead start acting like you have practiced a whole lot and have learned a craft... there is much more honro in that and audiences appreciate it much mroe as well.
Message: Posted by: Michael Bilkis (Feb 14, 2006 09:50PM)
I saw P&T years ago on broadway, Their refrigerator show. I found the "exposure" to be confounding because they folled you any how. It was a sucker type effect like the silk to egg but on a grand scale. From a psychological point of view, an average person will negate the explanation as being valid because they were just fooled. ERG, they even forget the explanation as it was not valid in the first place.

BTW, The card stabe routine htey did then was one of the most shoking anf funny bits of magic that I have ever seen. Teller puit the knife through Penn's hand to get to the card that he had "stolen" from the deck and hid.

Michael
Message: Posted by: nathanallen (Feb 16, 2006 04:09PM)
For those who HATE P&T... I think we have a lot to learn about ENTERTAINMENT from these guys. The public wants ENTERTAINMENT, and not necessarily PURE ART.

Sure, there are dozens of folks who are better at sleights than Blaine, do the same Steinmeyer stuff as Copperfield, but we are not on TV; THEY are. THEY are making bank. Why? Because THEY know how to ENTERTAIN. (Although, in my opinion, P&T are more entertaining than BOTH of the Davids combined)

This also explains the success of Blue Man Group. Sure, there are better drummers and musicians in the world, but BMG does an ENTERTAINING show.

We need to listen to the public and not become "imbred" (for lack of a better term), convincing ourselves that the latest trick deck or technical perfection is the only key to entertaining the masses. If you ask any lay public to describe the most recent magic show they've seen, chances are it will be very lackluster.

Penn & Teller can ENTERTAIN. That's what they are; entertainers. They deserve every dollar they've made. They're original, well-read, and gut-busting funny.

...IMHO.

Thank you for your kind attention.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 16, 2006 07:53PM)
Aside from the fact that the word is probably "inbread" you are trying to use.

I agree with ya.

NO matter what they are where they are, and it was not luck that did it for any of the guys you mentioned. I don't like Blaine, but which of us had all the ABC specials? I try to forget, but it was NOT me!

You do make a valid point.

And it kind of stems from your point. A magic show targeted at an audince of "laity" will be far more entertaining to me than one targeted at magicians. Most "people" not magicians, don't like magic convention shows at all.

And there are far more real people out there, than us.
Message: Posted by: nathanallen (Feb 17, 2006 11:17AM)
"imbred" (stereotyped tobacco-chewing southern drawl)
Just wanted to clarify that.
:gunfighter:

Glad one person agrees with me. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: tlfdoc (Feb 19, 2006 01:59AM)
Agree that P&T are among the most talented and entertaining magicians out there. Their humor definitely isn't for everyone, but they unquestionably have the skills and "chops" and understand and appreciate much about the history of magic and magicians. In contrast to so many dull and boring magicians, their show is unique and worth seeing without a doubt!
Message: Posted by: JHodgeCMI (Feb 19, 2006 11:08PM)
Has anyone tried their 800 number Card revelation from Cruel Tricks? Is it still working?

Jay
Message: Posted by: Mysterioii (Feb 22, 2006 01:42PM)
Actually it's "inbred".

"Inbread" = "a sandwich"
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Feb 26, 2006 09:20PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-13 06:52, gibson99 wrote:
Did any of you guys see the episode on smoking? I though they made some great points with evidence to back it up. Plus the fact that neither of them are smokers really helps to give them credibility.
[/quote]

That and th fact that they completely ignored literally ALL of the scientific evidence that contradicts THEIR stance on the issue of smoking - just like they did with the episode on hypnosis where they quoted the woman out of context, misquoted and ignored literally ALL of the brainwave research that proves them wrong in their assertions as well.

Yes, they are the masters of the use of something called "selective instance" when it comes to anything that disagrees with their own opinions, that is pretty easily demonstrated.

Their show is aptly named. It sums up their misues of the scientific method, perfectly. They claim to be skeptics, but a skeptic is one who says "I am open to be shown," not "I have already made up my mind to disagree with you and I'm going to prove you wrong." That's a disbeliever.

Of course, there is also a much stronger word for people like that, too. It begins with the letter 'B.'

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 27, 2006 09:53AM)
I never really look to them for scientific knowlege, any more than I would look to them for theological knowlege.

in their own context they are indeed entertaining. I just wish people knew they were not the final word on everything they say they are.

Problem is because they ARE so engaging, people take it as fact.

I know what ya mean Lee, they do misuse but I believe they do it for entertainment.
Message: Posted by: jgravelle (Feb 27, 2006 10:46AM)
[quote]
Yes, they are the masters of the use of something called "selective instance" when it comes to anything that disagrees with their own opinions...
[/quote]

I know what you mean. I'd respect them a lot more if they could be more fair and balanced, you know... like Dan Rather.

Don't worry. It'll all balance out once PBS launches the 'Amazing Jonathan and Lehrer Newshour'... :cool:


Regards,

-jjg
Message: Posted by: mmize (Feb 28, 2006 08:52AM)
I've been reading through this thread and it's actually kind of sad how many people who claim to love the art of magic have such a shallow understanding of it. People who immediately become enraged at any form of "exposure" are, in my mind, only demonstrating that they don't really appreciate what this grand profession is, or can be.

Magic is so much more than the secret moves we make with our hands when no one is looking. And to reduce it to that is to do this fine art a great disservice. It's about what we say and how we say it. It's about the larger truths we can expose with a few samll white lies. At it's core it's about, or at least it should be, trying to make a connection with people and share a unique experience.

Teevtee made an excellent post and said much of what I wanted to say for me. Most laypeople's view of magic is very limited. They don't believe in "real" magic, they believe we are doing something they are not able to see. When we become furious over a few moves being exposed, we are, in effect, supporting that very shallow view of this great craft.

The audience is not stupid. And all of you who have said anything close to this, really have no business in magic. P&T know the audience is not stupid. They know that the audience doesn't really believe they have magical powers. By exposing a few tricks they allow the audience to see the nuts and bolts of magic, and in turn, allow the audience a better appreciation of how magic "really" works. They can appreciate how clever the deception was, and that there was more going on than just a few quick moves. They also leave not feeling like chumps who were scammed, but rather lucky enough to experience something truly unique.

It's no secret I'm a huge Sankey fan. (I apologize, I know this is getting horribly off track, but I've struck a nerve here) Many of the negative and bitter posters in this thread would do well to take the time to read Sankey's book "Beyond Secrets" with an open mind and heart. It sounds cheezy and cliche, but magic really could be so much more.

Just my thoughts, thanks for listening.
Message: Posted by: nathanallen (Mar 7, 2006 03:25PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-28 09:52, mmize wrote:
...really appreciate what this grand profession is, or can be...
[/quote]

NMIZE-
That was a heck of an article. Very well said. I couldn't agree more. Are you a writer, by the way?
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Mar 7, 2006 09:53PM)
Totally disagree. I see it more and more nowadays when I go out to see magicians. Expose a series of moves and then come back with a another to blow them away. Although it's an efficient way of deceiving the audience in my opinion it's a blantant breach of the code that magicians need to stick to in order to preserve the artform. The way I see it magicians who use these tactics do not have the proficiency to impresss their audiences with their actual skills, that they need to expose effects in order to keep the audience interested. It's disgusting and when I see it in person it makes my skin crawl.
Message: Posted by: gollymrscience (Mar 8, 2006 12:04PM)
I have seen more damaging exposure from guys doing magic badly than from P and T.
The points made about how the audiance sees us are right on. We are not living in the Dark Ages. People do not believe you are some superhuman no matter how much your own ego might need that crutch. 99 time out of 100 your audiance knows they are getting got and its up to you to sell the effect as art. A puzzle wherein the audiance suspends belief for a moment and goes along with you no matter how impossible the premise because they want to be entertained. We do it when we choose to suspend our disbelief and allow ourselves to be drawn into Harry Potter or Spiderman movies(I know they have nothing to do with each other - that's why I've used them). We know that there is no Hogwarts and there are no guys in tights swinging from buildings (I used to but my wife made me quit).
As far as exposure and audiance perception I well remember a Magic Dealer/Magician in Edmonton, Alberta Canada - Freddy Willard, pulling off the perfect proof that what we fear as insiders isn't even on the radar for most laymen.
Freddy had a couple in there looking at some stuff. They were very new and the boyfriend wanted to get into magic. They had been to lots of shows and even bought some books and now it was timr to get serious.
Freddy reached into his jacket pocket for the handkerchief and TT but as he pulled them out the TT slipped off and fell to the floor. A couple of the regulars were there and were all set to fall into an awkward silence but Freddy was an experianced showman. A bold as brass he asked the girl to pick it up off the floor and pass it back to him. She handed it to him with the load exposed and all she said was ewwww gross. Freddy took it and tucked it into his jacket (so they thought) appologized for falling apart so easily and then proceeded to do Silk from Hanky using the very TT and load they had just seen!
They were amazed - we were amazed - and they were CLUELESS!!!
Exposure?? No way.
Freddy sold the young man Silk From Hanky and because it was just "the Boys" in the shop let the young man open the package. When he saw the TT he was floored and we were all killing ourselves laughing.
But here is the kicker - he was still amazed.
He summed it up by saying "I saw it happen - I think I know what happened-but...what just happened??
Now that's magic.
Message: Posted by: wayno (Mar 9, 2006 01:14PM)
[quote]Freddy reached into his jacket pocket for the handkerchief and TT but as he pulled them out the TT slipped off and fell to the floor. A couple of the regulars were there and were all set to fall into an awkward silence but Freddy was an experianced showman. A bold as brass he asked the girl to pick it up off the floor and pass it back to him. She handed it to him with the load exposed and all she said was ewwww gross. Freddy took it and tucked it into his jacket (so they thought) appologized for falling apart so easily and then proceeded to do Silk from Hanky using the very TT and load they had just seen!
They were amazed - we were amazed - and they were CLUELESS!!![/quote]

Heh. That story is priceless. :D

Sincerely,
Wayne Stevenson
The SpookClub
Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Mar 9, 2006 01:58PM)
That story was priceless in more ways than one. Willard was a cornerstone of the Edmonton magic community for many years. But he seldom demonstrated effects to customers. Instead, he described each and every effect in such vivid detail that you didn't need to see it performed. His purported "logic" was that people pay for the secret, not the show.

Eccentric? That doesn't even begin to describe Willard! He was an extremely accomplished magician in his own right and, even today, quietly continues to manufacture products right here in Edmonton. But have you ever heard of a magic dealer REFUSING to sell you a product?

That's exactly what Willard would do. If you walked into his store looking for an advanced effect that HE KNEW you weren't ready to tackle, he would outright refuse to sell it to you. Although many customers were likely put off by this at times, there was method in the madness.

If a customer tried to take on an effect that was clearly beyond his abilities, he would become frustrated and maybe even blame the shop for selling the thing to him. Even worse, the customer might put on such a poor performance of the effect that he completely blows it and exposes the method.

So, Willard justified his approach as making sure the customers were satisfied with their purchase and protecting the integrity of the craft. Willard would actually "test" his customers from time to time in order to determine the level of their ability and their dedication and approach to the craft.

I still remember when I was about 10 years old, I went into his store and aked for a color changing silk effect. Williard didn't really know me very well since I lived 300 miles out of town and only made it into his store periodically. He told me there were two different versions of the effect I was looking for: a self working gimmicked effect and an effect that required some sleight of hand. He asked me which one I wanted. I told him the sleight of hand version.

He liked that and asked me to perform the effect for him the next time I came back to the store. I did just that and it seemed to open up a whole new side of Willard. Only in hindsight did I realize Willard was testing me, and that I had passed.

But can you imagine any dealer taking such a protective approach to the craft in today's day and age? Ahh, ... the good ole days!

Kent
Message: Posted by: gollymrscience (Mar 9, 2006 04:17PM)
Ha! We could probably have an entire thread just from Freddy's Boys.
I used to spend a lot of time in the store and the cross section of magicians and humanity walking into that little space was asounding!
More than once I remember watching those gull wing eyebrows of his come down as he sized up one of the "boys" who had requested a particular effect and hearing him say; "that's a good effect alright...but not for you".
More than magic lessons learned in that store.
Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Mar 9, 2006 07:43PM)
Isn't it amazing how many lives can be touched by the owner of one brick and mortar store?

Kent
Message: Posted by: whizzomagic (Mar 14, 2006 11:41AM)
[quote]
On 2003-06-23 11:05, Bill wrote:
Just my two cents, but I refuse to buy or see anything done by Penn and Teller. These clowns expose more magic secrets then the Masked Magician. It's apparent they have little regard for the the art of magic, and fancy themselves as "rebels".

It baffles me they are popular with magicians. :mad: :mad: :mad:
[/quote]

Give them a break. They don't expose much of what wasn't already known by the non magic public anyway. I like Penn and Teller, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Message: Posted by: KaydoWhoa (Mar 16, 2006 04:34AM)
[quote]
On 2006-03-14 12:41, whizzomagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2003-06-23 11:05, Bill wrote:
Just my two cents, but I refuse to buy or see anything done by Penn and Teller. These clowns expose more magic secrets then the Masked Magician. It's apparent they have little regard for the the art of magic, and fancy themselves as "rebels".

It baffles me they are popular with magicians. :mad: :mad: :mad:
[/quote]

Give them a break. They don't expose much of what wasn't already known by the non magic public anyway. I like Penn and Teller, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
[/quote]

I have seen them many times "expose" sleights and although I don't agree with all of it I think some is with merit. Often when Dai Vernon performed 3 card monte he would expose the "hype" and I think it actually helped the effect..And as far as a magician to expose an effect just because it was already known by most laymen is never a good thing.. If ten people know how some effect was done why let twenty more people in on it?? doesn't make sense to me.
Message: Posted by: abc (Mar 25, 2006 04:51PM)
[quote]
On 2006-03-16 05:34, KaydoWhoa wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-03-14 12:41, whizzomagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2003-06-23 11:05, Bill wrote:
Just my two cents, but I refuse to buy or see anything done by Penn and Teller. These clowns expose more magic secrets then the Masked Magician. It's apparent they have little regard for the the art of magic, and fancy themselves as "rebels".

It baffles me they are popular with magicians. :mad: :mad: :mad:
[/quote]

Give them a break. They don't expose much of what wasn't already known by the non magic public anyway. I like Penn and Teller, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
[/quote]

I have seen them many times "expose" sleights and although I don't agree with all of it I think some is with merit. Often when Dai Vernon performed 3 card monte he would expose the "hype" and I think it actually helped the effect..And as far as a magician to expose an effect just because it was already known by most laymen is never a good thing.. If ten people know how some effect was done why let twenty more people in on it?? doesn't make sense to me.
[/quote]
Without checking on the internet please answer these questions
To three decimal points what is Phi?
What is the capital of Peru?
On which date did Neil Amrstrong land on the moon?
Almost every person in the world knows the answers to these questions yet are unable to answer them when they are asked. The general public is like that. The fact that they are fooled later on after the explanation means that they are entertained and usually not able to recall what exactly they were told regarding the effect earlier which is why it is not exposure of magic but a method to entertain.
The truth is that you are not letting 20 more people in on it because for one they can not really recall the explanation afterwards and secondly there is no real "in" and "out" in magic as these things are available for free if you have a computer.
As for P&T 's TV show it is very humorous but they do not really prove much except that there are some funny people in the world.
Message: Posted by: RonCalhoun (Apr 9, 2006 04:53PM)
On what date was JFK shot in Dallas, TX?