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Topic: Ramsey routine
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (May 5, 2010 02:31PM)
Any idea where I can find info on the Ramsey routine? Just snagged a set of Biro cups and am interested in what this looked like.

-Lee
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (May 5, 2010 02:55PM)
Ask Pete Biro, he did a re-issue of the routine.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (May 5, 2010 07:40PM)
I think I still have some, will look around.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (May 5, 2010 08:33PM)
There are several sources
Farelli, Victor: John Ramsay's Routine with the Cups & Balls. (1948) 103 pages: Well printed and illustrated with many photographs showing the hands of the master manipulator, John Ramsay, performing the various moves of the effect. The text, except for Ramsey's brief foreword, is by Victor Farelli. There are eight chapters on the routine itself and as well a chronological historyof the effect.

Galloway, Andrew: The Ramsay Classics (1977) The Collected Works of John Ramsay includes John Ramsay's Routine with the Cups & Balls

Galloway, Andrew: The Magic of John Ramsay Volume 1 DVD. Presented by Andrew Galloway. Included on this DVD is a wonderful lecture by Andrew on the art and science of misdirection. There is also some rare footage of John Ramsay himself. Routines on Vol.1 includes The Ramsay Cups and Balls & The real secrets of misdirection.

Galloway, Andrew: The Ramsay Legend - The Magic of John Ramsay, Illustrated by Ralph O. Evans ©1969 Goodliffe Publications, Birmingham 21; 2nd printing 1975 by Magic Inc. p 44 Chapter Twelve: One Cup and Ball Routine. A routine for a single ungimmicked cup, two small black cork balls, one red cork ball, and a larger "climax" ball. Ramsay used a Indian Cups & Balls style cup, though this is not necessary. Good routine to learn if you're ever asked to do your "Chop cup" routine and are stuck without your Chop cup!
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (May 14, 2010 06:01PM)
So I just got finished reading through John Ramsey's cups and balls routine (for the first time... many more reads will be needed). I just want to say, I am blown away! So many cups and balls routines adopt each others sleights, moves, even scripting. This was not the case at all! It was such an eye opener to read this text. I know that this routine has been around for a while and technically its "nothing new", but in the current world of cup and balls, it still reads as new, original, and amazing. It shocks me that so little has been adopted from this work. Such extensive thought was put into this. I'm sure the wiser of men on this forum are laughing and smiling at the young guy who read some old text, but I am sincerely amazed by this routine. I'm stunned and I love it!

Thanks to Pete Biro for helping this young idiot find this old miniature tome of great thinking. I sure do wish new artists put such thought into their work.

-Lee
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (May 14, 2010 06:40PM)
Then you will enjoy the rest of his works as well. Those that have not studied Ramsay, and instead go for the penquin magic types and the kids in sunglasses as their teachers, are missing out on .... just about everything.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (May 14, 2010 08:48PM)
Lawrence O -- had you forgottn that I reprinted the Ramsay routine, thanks to Martin Breese?
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (May 14, 2010 09:36PM)
Lawrence,

Let me start by saying thank you for the insight and wisdom that you put into this community. You gave an excellent list of books as resources for learning more about John Ramsey's work. However, it seems like these books are rather obscure and hard to obtain. Do you have any suggestions as to where I could find these books?

-Lee
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (May 14, 2010 10:31PM)
You can find them on ebay. Usually all but "The Ramsay Classics" can be had at a descent price.

The Ramsay Classics usually goes for $200 and up. Maybe more.
I have a copy autographed and includes a letter to the purchaser and a couple of advertising pamphlets inside as well.

I was just reading it the other day to bone up on his comedy "Trick with 4 Little Beans."
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 14, 2010 11:40PM)
Lee:

I thought you knew the Ramsey routine.
1) do the debt snowball, paying off all your credit cards first.
2) if your cars are too expensive, sell them off and buy cheaper ones.
3) increase your income.
4) pay off your student loans
5) cut up your credit cards

Then call the show and yell "We're DEBT FREE."

The Ramsay routine is a different matter. ;)
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (May 15, 2010 04:18AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-14 23:31, Frank Starsini wrote:
You can find them on ebay. Usually all but "The Ramsay Classics" can be had at a descent price.

The Ramsay Classics usually goes for $200 and up. Maybe more.
I have a copy autographed and includes a letter to the purchaser and a couple of advertising pamphlets inside as well.

I was just reading it the other day to bone up on his comedy "Trick with 4 Little Beans."
[/quote]

There is one lot in Gabe Fajuri's auction sale of this week end with several Ramsay books including The Ramsay Classics which will probably go for less than this.
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (May 15, 2010 04:47AM)
I looked and looked and couldn't find this lot. I'll keep looking
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (May 15, 2010 09:14AM)
Pete,
is the book you provide the same text as Farelli, Victor: John Ramsay's Routine with the Cups & Balls. (1948) 103 pages? Or are they different texts? Just curious cause I may start looking for this book as well.

-Lee
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (May 15, 2010 09:52AM)
Lee: Yassiree... same stuff.
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (May 15, 2010 10:11AM)
Well that is a purchase I guess I don't need to make! I am assuming that the 103 pages is due to the size of the book then. That had me a bit confused.

-Lee
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (May 15, 2010 10:24AM)
It has a lot of history and other material, but the routine is literally word-for-word.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (May 15, 2010 07:34PM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-14 21:48, Pete Biro wrote:
Lawrence O -- had you forgottn that I reprinted the Ramsay routine, thanks to Martin Breese?
[/quote]

Sorry Pete, I just didn't know. We're all ignorant just on different things. I'll complete my bibliographic notes
What was the date of the publication? I gather that the publisher was Martin Breeze. How many pages? Was it the only trick in the book? If not, at what page did the routine appear?

I'm a big Ramsay fan and did travel all the way to Ayr as a pilgrimage and spent an entire afternoon with Andrew Galloway who was (as you know) his only pupil (and an almost religious one if I may add). John Ramsay however has an effect in his routine that seems to me to be really weak.
At some point in the routine he "magically" passes one ball from one side pocket to the other. Not the most fascinating magical feat and there were other more magical ways to get to the same point.
The rest of the routine is outstanding but that part... leaves some room open to creativity.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (May 15, 2010 07:45PM)
It is not published by Martin Breese, but by me. When I designed a cup for the Ramsay routine, Mike Brazill made up a prototype and sent me to OK. Then, as you know, he went out of business. Some years later, Jake at RNT2 made up several sets and sent me one.

I thought it wise to include the routine with the cups, so I got permission from Breese (who owns the rights to the Farelli book) to reprint just the Ramsay routine, which I did. It was January 2008 and is 17 pages.
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (May 15, 2010 08:29PM)
Pete... considering the design of the cup and the routine to accompany it. Why design the cup with a middle bead for stacking? Just curious as to the thought for it.

-Lee
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (May 15, 2010 11:49PM)
I didn't want the stacking bead, but Brazill did, and I never really OK'd it, but then it does open up some other possible routines. I really wanted to just copy the ice cream cups in metal. Brazill, it turned out, just modified a set of forms to spin the samples on.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (May 16, 2010 04:18AM)
One quick question? I thought that writings were going into the public domain after 50 years. Since Farelli wrote the book in 1948 how can anyone still own the rights on Farelli's book (and this is not against Martin Breese, just a real question)
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 16, 2010 04:27AM)
They were copyrighted in England, so, under the new laws, which are retroactive, the copyright will extend until 75 years after Farelli's death.
Message: Posted by: Woland (May 16, 2010 06:44AM)
The duration of copyright has been repeatedly extended, on the American side of the water, by enthusiastic Congresses. The "Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act" of 1998 fixed protection of copyright to the life of the author plus 70 years for individual works, and to 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication for corporate or collective works (whichever comes first). The minimum term of the Berne Convention was the creator's life plus 50 years, but unless I am mistaken, the E.U. recognizes a term of the creator's life plus 70 years.

Remarkable in any event, particularly since a patent protects an invention for only 20 years.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 16, 2010 08:44AM)
The actual duration of copyright is still in flux. Add the Restoration of Copyright Act that was part of the Uruguay rounds, and you will see exactly how confusing it gets to be.

When the US government first set the durations for patents and copyrights, the length of a copyright was 28 years, renewable for another 28. The length of a patent was 17 years, non-renewable. Now, it's a bit more complex, but still there is a great difference between the length of the two forms of protection for IP. The reason is simple and logical, though. A long term for copyright protection encourages intellectual creativity. A short term for patent protection stimulates technological growth.
Message: Posted by: Woland (May 16, 2010 10:12AM)
Whether something should be patented or copyrighted depends on the nature of the creation, of course. I recently read in a different discussion at the Café, that the late Burling Hull copyrighted the Svengali Deck when he should have patented it:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=237111&forum=177&post=5348011

It is interesting that computer hardware is patented, but software is copyrighted. The actual Svengali Deck is "hardware," whereas the routines and use are "software."
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 16, 2010 10:30AM)
However, integrated circuits are copyrighted, because they are made from photographs, and the photographs are copyrighted.

While the Svengali deck is hardware, the routines are actually considered graphics and/or text. Not all graphics and text are software.

That's like claiming that movies are software for projectors and sheet music is software for musical instruments.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (May 16, 2010 11:41AM)
Martin Breese had purchased the publishing rights to the Farelli book, and he granted me permission to produce a limited run of the Cups and Balls routine. This is all explained on page 17 of the book.
Message: Posted by: Woland (May 16, 2010 04:06PM)
But aren't musical scores copyrighted like software, rather than patented? Musical instruments are patented.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 16, 2010 05:36PM)
Yes, they are. However, musical scores were copyrighted before computer software even existed. It doesn't make musical scores software. It's not a commutative piece of logic.

My van has four wheels. My roller skates have four wheels. Therefore, my van is a roller skate.

SOME musical instruments are patented. Most are not. You can't simply divide the world in to hardware and software, or even hardware, software and firmware.

CD -- hardware or software? Hardware. The contents are software. But the music on the CD is neither hardware nor software, because it does not exist until it is interpreted by a D/A converter. Even then, the music does not exist until it is heard by someone who can recognize it as music and not just some kind of odd noise.
Message: Posted by: Woland (May 16, 2010 08:00PM)
Mr. Palmer, thank you for your interest in my comments. I am merely trying to illustrate some of the differences between things that are copyright and things that are patented. "Intellectual property" does not exist in common law, and was deliberately created in order to foster innovation and creation. It just seems odd that creations which are governed by copyright are protected for 100 years while creations that are protected by patent are protected for only 20.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 16, 2010 08:45PM)
The records of the congressional deliberations leading up the establishment of the US patent office indicate that they wanted technology to move as rapidly as possible. This would be hindered greatly if, for example, the Pullman brakes remained under patent for as long as, say "Misty." Jefferson wrote extensively on this. I think his reasoning is sound.

Interestingly, although software (as a specific example) is protected by copyright, the idea of anyone knocking off an early version of Word Perfect is almost ludicrous.

The copyright law in the US was changed, not because of Sonny Bono, but because of Jacqueline Kennedy. When Debussy's "La Mer" went into the public domain in this country, she was incensed because the Tin Pan Alley writers immediately put together an abominable set of lyrics for it. The Debussy estate didn't get a sou. There were a number of American composers/songwriters who outlived their copyrights. Eubie Blake, for example, lived to see most of his work pass into the public domain.

He remarked that if he had know he was going to live as long as he did, he would have taken better care of himself. That was later traced back to Thurber, among other authors.

There have been inventions that were not covered by patent that remained protected for several decades. One was the Hughes Tool Company oil drilling bit. When an oil company leased one of those bits, they signed a non-disclosure agreement that stated that Hughes would have one of their detectives present each time the drill was brought out of the ground so nobody could photograph it or draw it. They kept it free of copies for about 50 years. Then someone from Reed Roller Bit not only copied it, but they improved it, and since the bit was not patented, they couldn't do squat about it.
Message: Posted by: Michael Landes (Aug 28, 2013 12:33AM)
[quote]
On 2010-05-14 22:36, djkuttdecks wrote:
Lawrence,

Let me start by saying thank you for the insight and wisdom that you put into this community. You gave an excellent list of books as resources for learning more about John Ramsey's work. However, it seems like these books are rather obscure and hard to obtain. Do you have any suggestions as to where I could find these books?

-Lee
[/quote]The fabulous 100 page farelli book, including dozens of photos of Ramsay performing the various moves,cited by Laurence O, is available as an ebook from lybrary.com
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Aug 28, 2013 10:53AM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-28 01:33, Michael Landes wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-05-14 22:36, djkuttdecks wrote:
Lawrence,

Let me start by saying thank you for the insight and wisdom that you put into this community. You gave an excellent list of books as resources for learning more about John Ramsey's work. However, it seems like these books are rather obscure and hard to obtain. Do you have any suggestions as to where I could find these books?

-Lee
[/quote]The fabulous 100 page farelli book, including dozens of photos of Ramsay performing the various moves,cited by Laurence O, is available as an ebook from lybrary.com
[/quote]

I just checked this out on Lybrary.com and found out that there is only 85 PDF pages. Also discovered other Cups and Balls material as well.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Aug 28, 2013 11:37PM)
Owing to requests, I have just reprinted a small run of the Ramsay Cups and Balls book.