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Topic: Out of print but not out of mind
Message: Posted by: Bato William (Jun 25, 2010 05:25PM)
Like the works of Frank Garcia and Walter Gibson, many fine card books of the late 20th century are long out of print despite their value to the magic community.

What are some of your favorites?

Should they be brought back in print by popular demand for the good of magicdom, or remain out of print so we few owners can hoard their valuable contents?

Bato William
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jun 26, 2010 09:57AM)
Bato William,

Nice subject and one that I hope will generate discussion!

Concerning Frank Garcia's work: unless a major miracle occurs, I do not think we will ever see his work reprinted unfortunately. While I do not know the complete details, there are some legal issues concerning ownership of the intellectual property and Mr. Garcia's estate. If you have any Garcia books, do NOT sell them. They are truly treasures!

Now to your question.

I do not like the idea of hoarding information. In the real world of book collecting, first editions still DO fetch VERY high prices. For example, DRACULA is actually in the public domain and you can download it legally anywhere. You can even publish it yourself, and it is completely legal to do so. Having said that, a first edition Dracula is SO rare that where I did my undergraduate work at Penn State University, we have a first edition of this classic of literature under glass. The cost of actually procuring one is astronomically high.

Some that I have that I would like to see reprinted include CardCraft, The Pallbearer's Review, Secrets of a Puerto Rican Gambler, and Greater Magic. I think Richard Kaufman has stated that there are no plans to reprint CardCraft or Greater Magic. L&L could PROBABLY be persuaded if interest was there to republish The Pallbearer's Review. Maybe Daryl might reprint Secrets of a Puerto Rican Gambler.

Some books have gone through second reprints but are now either OOP of going OOP after the current print run such as Stewart James in Print: The First Fifty Years. Stephen Minch, the publisher, did a limited reprint of this book, the third largest monograph ever written in magic, of 500 copies. It is now OOP. A pity, but I am guessing that the cost to reprint this mammoth book would be prohibitive in the current market, but only Stephen Minch could accurately answer this.

As I am writing this, I checked Hermetic Press's site and found a ton of books there that I have that I had not realized were OOP. And Stephen Minch notes that there are no immediate plans to reprint any of them.

Another that just popped into mind from L&L is John Bannon's excellent Impossibilia. I am seeing this one sell now in the after market for 125.00 USD and climbing.

I mentioned in this post that I hate the idea of hoarding. That is the academician in me. As to keeping the secrets to ourselves, there is a counter to that. There is a maxim in magic that states, "If you want to keep something secret, publish it." This statement is so very true! In fact some of these effects are SO secret that they have been released in the last ten years as ORIGINAL effects with NO credit to the actual routine. For example, there was an effect by Mort Rudnick that was redone in 2002. The effect was that you showed two coins and two cards. The coins are separated from each other and each covered with a card. When you lift the cards, BOTH coins are now under the SAME card. No extra coins, and NO credit to Mort Rudnick, and it is the SAME method!! At the time, I was working as a demonstrator in a shop in University Park, PA. Of course, as a demonstrator, we had to learn the effects that came in so we could demonstrate them. I was p***** that this happened. I actually CALLED the company that published it and railed at the fact that they gave no credit for the effect. They told me it was NOT the same effect or method. I actually FAXED the actual effect to them and they STILL denied it! (No, I will not disclose the publisher's name.)

Conversely, I have found insanely strong routines that very few people seem to be doing. Magicfish, one of our members, turned me on to a Father Cyprian effect that I have had in a book of his magic (written by Garcia ironically) yet never KNEW I had it if that makes sense. I learned it, and it is a STRONG effect. VERY strong.

Remember the excitement over the effect called Stigmata? (Note many effects have used this title, but there is a specific one released ten years ago that I am referring to) The ORIGINAL version appeared in Hugard's Magic Monthly!!

So, secrets ARE safe ironically in the sense that they get rediscovered and many times released as NEW effects after a LOOONG period of time.

And sometimes not so long. Harry Lorayne will tell you that his write-up of Slydini's Linking Pins was "modified" - that means it was written horribly - and sold without his OR Slydini's permission, and the effect was released only a few years after it appeared in Apocalypse!!

The advent of e-books has allowed publishers to make available once again great journals and books that would be so prohibitively costly otherwise. One stunning example is The Sphinx. A full hard copy run, IF you can find one runs now at 5000-7000 USD. Yet, you can now get a beautiful digital version of this legendary journal, fully searchable, from Chris Wasshuber for 500 USD! How cool is THAT??!! :)

People argue that they hate e-books because they hate reading on a monitor. *Laughing" THAT is what printers are for!! Print what you need as you read!!

For the magic collectors, their first editions will NOT be harmed by reprints as demonstrated by the larger area of book collecting in general. Bascom Jones MAGICK has just seen a second reprint by Viking Magic. Yet, a set of the originals as published by Jones have not devalued in price at all.

So, I say, PRINT or DIGITIZE them all!! The notion of knowledge just for the elite few is abhorrent to me.

Will it happen? I highly doubt it, but, wait long enough and you will see individual effects so new that they are old!!

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Mike M (Jun 26, 2010 10:48AM)
The Martin Nash Trilogy - Any Second Now, Sleight Unseen & Ever So Sleightly!

Excellent stuff!
Message: Posted by: Bato William (Jun 26, 2010 02:11PM)
Thank you, Vlad__77, for your detailed response.

Magic publishing is a strange creature indeed.

Bato William
Message: Posted by: Bato William (Jun 28, 2010 07:35PM)
No other responses to this topic?

Bato William
Message: Posted by: AngeloR (Jun 28, 2010 09:06PM)
Great topic. I am not sure that it is out of print, but my first book explaining sleights, effects and routining at a good introductory level was Henry Hay's Amateur Magician's Handbook. I still have my copy of the third edition (bought 35 years ago!).

Good photos and very readable. I have recommended it many times for the serious beginner-to-low-intermediate level magician.

BTW, I and Vlad are of the same mind on the issue of hoarding: nix on the hoarding! :)

Ensuring that info is readily available (while being careful to protect the intellectual property rights of creators/authors) is a goal well worth striving for. Ready-access should be important to all folks, not just we who are academics. Just my two cents as a college prof.

Angelo
Message: Posted by: motown (Jun 28, 2010 10:20PM)
For starters, I'd like to see Pete Samuelson's "Theatrical Close-up" reprinted. It has an excellent presentation for Wild Card.

Harry Lorayne's "Personal Collection", missed this one.

and "Tricks of the Trade" by Doug Conn
to name a few.
Message: Posted by: Scott Fridinger (Jun 29, 2010 06:36PM)
David Regal's Star Quality
Message: Posted by: sleightly (Jun 29, 2010 08:21PM)
Samelson's book comes up pretty regularly nowadays. At one time I had three copies. The lowest price I paid for one was $25, the highest was $75. Now you can find one around $20 on eBay or other locations...

I would be really surprised to see L&L reprint Pallbearer's (for so many reasons...).

There are few books that are missing from my library nowadays (I just scored the three Jack Hughes volumes), but there are occasional holes usually when I need to look up a reference.

One I am having a hard time getting is Eric Lewis' Continuation of Miracles... Funny, as the other two volumes in the trilogy are common and still in print!

ajp
Message: Posted by: Scott Fridinger (Jun 30, 2010 08:04AM)
I can understand why they are not reprinted. Is there a big market for the books to take on the expense of reprinting them, while spending money to print NEW books. There are a few books that are really great, the Elmsley Books (which fortunately I bought when I first got into magic) for instance. There is great material there, but most magicians have never read them. Why should then when much of the work is on DVD?

Those of us who like reading books are a growing smaller and smaller in the magic marketplace, I believe based on my conversations of new/younger magicians (I am only 35, but bought my first book 15 years ago.) I ask if they have read Vernon's Book of Magic and they say no, and often they don't like to read. Reading takes time. Often I think about selling some of my books, but I don't because I want to pass them on to one or more of my children if they take a liking to magic. To get rid of them and give them the DVD's would put them on the wrong path.

So I didn't mean to make this a "why people don't read" post, but I feel that if there was more of a push for younger, interested people to read more then the demand may give a reason to republish more books.
Message: Posted by: Rennie (Jul 3, 2010 10:16AM)
"People argue that they hate e-books because they hate reading on a monitor. *Laughing" THAT is what printers are for!! Print what you need as you read!!"

Hi Vlad_77, I hate e-books because they are not the real thing. I believe I had printed only one. I am sure most will agree that holding the "actual" book that was published many years ago by some famous magician/author means more than hitting the old "print" key on the computer.

I definitely enjoy reading your comments. We agree on many of the items pertaining to books, not e-books though.
Rennie
Message: Posted by: motown (Jul 5, 2010 05:42PM)
I haven't yet seen the Samuelson book In good shape go for $20 yet.
Message: Posted by: Bugsy (Jul 5, 2010 11:31PM)
Vlad:

I have Garcia's small book on the magic of Father Cyprian and am curious which effect you found to your liking. I have a few things that I always liked from that book.

Bugsy
Message: Posted by: panlives (Jul 6, 2010 04:29PM)
[quote]
On 2010-06-26 10:57, Vlad_77 wrote:
Bato William,

Nice subject and one that I hope will generate discussion!

Concerning Frank Garcia's work: unless a major miracle occurs, I do not think we will ever see his work reprinted unfortunately. While I do not know the complete details, there are some legal issues concerning ownership of the intellectual property and Mr. Garcia's estate. If you have any Garcia books, do NOT sell them. They are truly treasures!

Now to your question.

I do not like the idea of hoarding information. In the real world of book collecting, first editions still DO fetch VERY high prices. For example, DRACULA is actually in the public domain and you can download it legally anywhere. You can even publish it yourself, and it is completely legal to do so. Having said that, a first edition Dracula is SO rare that where I did my undergraduate work at Penn State University, we have a first edition of this classic of literature under glass. The cost of actually procuring one is astronomically high.

Some that I have that I would like to see reprinted include CardCraft, The Pallbearer's Review, Secrets of a Puerto Rican Gambler, and Greater Magic. I think Richard Kaufman has stated that there are no plans to reprint CardCraft or Greater Magic. L&L could PROBABLY be persuaded if interest was there to republish The Pallbearer's Review. Maybe Daryl might reprint Secrets of a Puerto Rican Gambler.

Some books have gone through second reprints but are now either OOP of going OOP after the current print run such as Stewart James in Print: The First Fifty Years. Stephen Minch, the publisher, did a limited reprint of this book, the third largest monograph ever written in magic, of 500 copies. It is now OOP. A pity, but I am guessing that the cost to reprint this mammoth book would be prohibitive in the current market, but only Stephen Minch could accurately answer this.

As I am writing this, I checked Hermetic Press's site and found a ton of books there that I have that I had not realized were OOP. And Stephen Minch notes that there are no immediate plans to reprint any of them.

Another that just popped into mind from L&L is John Bannon's excellent Impossibilia. I am seeing this one sell now in the after market for 125.00 USD and climbing.

I mentioned in this post that I hate the idea of hoarding. That is the academician in me. As to keeping the secrets to ourselves, there is a counter to that. There is a maxim in magic that states, "If you want to keep something secret, publish it." This statement is so very true! In fact some of these effects are SO secret that they have been released in the last ten years as ORIGINAL effects with NO credit to the actual routine. For example, there was an effect by Mort Rudnick that was redone in 2002. The effect was that you showed two coins and two cards. The coins are separated from each other and each covered with a card. When you lift the cards, BOTH coins are now under the SAME card. No extra coins, and NO credit to Mort Rudnick, and it is the SAME method!! At the time, I was working as a demonstrator in a shop in University Park, PA. Of course, as a demonstrator, we had to learn the effects that came in so we could demonstrate them. I was p***** that this happened. I actually CALLED the company that published it and railed at the fact that they gave no credit for the effect. They told me it was NOT the same effect or method. I actually FAXED the actual effect to them and they STILL denied it! (No, I will not disclose the publisher's name.)

Conversely, I have found insanely strong routines that very few people seem to be doing. Magicfish, one of our members, turned me on to a Father Cyprian effect that I have had in a book of his magic (written by Garcia ironically) yet never KNEW I had it if that makes sense. I learned it, and it is a STRONG effect. VERY strong.

Remember the excitement over the effect called Stigmata? (Note many effects have used this title, but there is a specific one released ten years ago that I am referring to) The ORIGINAL version appeared in Hugard's Magic Monthly!!

So, secrets ARE safe ironically in the sense that they get rediscovered and many times released as NEW effects after a LOOONG period of time.

And sometimes not so long. Harry Lorayne will tell you that his write-up of Slydini's Linking Pins was "modified" - that means it was written horribly - and sold without his OR Slydini's permission, and the effect was released only a few years after it appeared in Apocalypse!!

The advent of e-books has allowed publishers to make available once again great journals and books that would be so prohibitively costly otherwise. One stunning example is The Sphinx. A full hard copy run, IF you can find one runs now at 5000-7000 USD. Yet, you can now get a beautiful digital version of this legendary journal, fully searchable, from Chris Wasshuber for 500 USD! How cool is THAT??!! :)

People argue that they hate e-books because they hate reading on a monitor. *Laughing" THAT is what printers are for!! Print what you need as you read!!

For the magic collectors, their first editions will NOT be harmed by reprints as demonstrated by the larger area of book collecting in general. Bascom Jones MAGICK has just seen a second reprint by Viking Magic. Yet, a set of the originals as published by Jones have not devalued in price at all.

So, I say, PRINT or DIGITIZE them all!! The notion of knowledge just for the elite few is abhorrent to me.

Will it happen? I highly doubt it, but, wait long enough and you will see individual effects so new that they are old!!

Ahimsa,
Vlad
[/quote]

Vlad,

This fantastic essay is another reminder that the Café (and the world, for that matter) would be a poorer place without you in it…

My entire life is devoted to the notion that knowledge should be ubiquitous but invisible. This is not meant as a value judgment. Collectors with the financial means to accumulate the physical manifestations of their passions will continue to do so – as is their right.

I probably do the same thing with ideas, which can also be hung like precious baubles on one’s “self.” The seminal differentiator is that I can share my wetware (selectively, of course). Anyone who has had the pleasure of sessioning at a card table has experienced the joy and ecstasy of communicating, sharing, creating, growing and learning.

I have already donated most of my valuable magic books to a magic foundation here in my hometown. My hard-drive and cloud-based computing (for off-site backup) are all that I require. I covet the knowledge, not the material object. My books – all physical books – are quickly becoming artifacts. They belong in collections that can be accessed by scholars and others with a keen interest in the provenance of magic. Coveting first edition magic books does nothing to enhance my wonder of, and appreciation for, the discipline of magic.

I also juggle and whereas I do adore some of the juggling items in my kit, it is the physical/mental alchemy and synergy of the act that makes me a “juggler.” It is, in the end, my mental and physical prowess that defines my “collection.”

My “magic room” is austere, Zen-like. It could be mistaken for a meditation chamber. There are no bookshelves or ponderous apparatus. If I open a closet door, you would see some books, some magazines, some stuff I print out from time to time, a few cases of cards; some Cups & Balls.

But in the center of that bare room is an ordinary bridge card table with 4 ordinary chairs. And what occurs at that table is not the sole domain of those who claim ownership of tomes that have become, by dint of stockpiling, private, cultish, esoteric, self-indulgent, narcissistic, or obscure. All too often, I have watched this kind of book collecting become a form of self-aggrandizement.

My room, devoid of magical Rococo opulence, is open to all who want to feast at the table of magic. It is a celebration of what Terence McKenna once said in another context, “The engineers of the future will be poets.”

What we do, as magicians, is a form of spatial and temporal poetry. Only a handful will ever plumb its inner workings. So, let it breathe.

This is a personal testimony and not intended to be condescending or judgmental. To the collectors, follow the maxim of St. Augustine of Hippo: “Love, and do what thou wilt.”

As Bill Palmer so beautifully phrased it in a recent post, “There are many rooms in the house of Magic.”
Message: Posted by: panlives (Jul 6, 2010 04:39PM)
In case my position was not clear: digital is the future.

Data and information should be accessible to those willing to pay the price - financially (as the case may be) and by walking the walk - doing the hard work.

No book of any kind, on this planet, should ever have to be “out of print.”

Never ever.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jul 6, 2010 07:30PM)
Panlives,

Thanks for the words - YOUR essay that is. It would be fun to continue this in the Food for Thought section of the Café. In fact, I may just do that but with SLIGHTLY different slant ;)

Bugsy, I had attempted a thread in the Gaffed and Funky section that was in some respects similar to Master Hideo Kato's "Today's Finding" in the Secret Sessiuons area of the Café. There was no exposure or methods discussed. I HAD hoped that magicians would share SOURCES to great magic they had in their libraries that others might find fun to study. SIX responses in total. I suppose I learned my lesson in terms of trying a thread to ask people to dive into the treasures and in the spirit of community, share some. C'est la guerre. Anyhow, ONE of the responses directed me to a WONDERFUL effect in the Garcia penned The Elegant Card Magic of Father Cyprian. (Thanks Magicfish!). The effect is called Hofzinzer's Departure, p. 54. Garcia called it "one of Fr. Cyprian's best and strongest effects" (Garcia, p. 54). Garcia wasn't kidding! :) Of course, the book is an excellent testimony to this prestidigitating priest. :)

Dinger, it's a pity the kids don't seem to read anymore, but, it's even MORE of a pity that ADULTS seem to eschew books. That being said, there has been quite a demand for The Star Quality of David Regal. I know I CAN buy it on the after market but I choose not to for the reasons I described in my long post earlier in this thread. While I ache for this book, I will not participate in the shark infested waters of knowledge for the very privileged. I have more than enough to study God knows. So, unless there is a reprint or someone wants to be generous and sell a copy at a MORTAL price, I shall have to pass.

No offense to book collectors, but, your precious first editions are NOT threatened by reprints. Knowledge USED to be for the privileged only. Tank God for Johannes Gutenberg. Knowledge should be available to all, and decisions to buy left to consumers. Ahh yes, "consumers". There's the rub (Like that one Panlives? ;) ) In a sense, knowledge is becoming once again for the privileged. Yes, I am an idealist. I find it criminal that knowledge can be reduced to this artificial construct called dollars and cents.

I have first editions. They are well loved. Some of these fetch very commanding prices now. I will not sell them however because of the reasons I have stated. Someday though, a promising newcomer to the art will be looking for a book when I am well past my days as a performer, old and grey and leaning down by the fire (Yeats reference for you Panlives), and I will give the book to the newcomer and only ask that she or he learn from the book and respect knowledge for its own sake.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jul 6, 2010 07:36PM)
Rennie,

I like that we do disagree on e-books in the sense that our discussion was well informed on both sides. Of course, I never expect anything less from you :)

I would offer however that while I share your deep love for books I can hold, e-books are being published which are the only source to great magic. I am building a nifty Cameron Francis, Peter Duffie, Aldo Colombini, and Scott Guinn collection. As mentioned, the digital format has, at least for me, opened up breathtaking vistas into the great journals of magic.

But Rennie, you and I DO agree on a very important point: people should READ ;)

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Rennie (Jul 7, 2010 10:20PM)
Vlad_77,

"But Rennie, you and I DO agree on a very important point: people should READ"

So true!
Rennie
Message: Posted by: Bob Tucker (Jul 17, 2010 07:19PM)
I was a student of Frank Garcia in the early 80's and still have all the Garcia books. If anyone would like any information regarding any of the effects I would be happy to share my thoughts with you.
Message: Posted by: Steven Leung (Jul 22, 2010 02:03AM)
Just to name a few:

The Magic Way - Juan Tamariz
Impossibilia - John Bannon
The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley Vol. 1 & 2 - Alex Elmsley
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Jul 26, 2010 06:33PM)
One thing many magicians don't realize is when a book is out of print. It doesn't always mean that it can't be found in magic dealers shops or is very hard to find. Out of print just means the publisher no longer has a supply of said book.

I agree the Garcia books should be reprinted. At least All in a nut shell, The real secrets of the 3 ball trick. Those and maybe one or 2 other books of Frank's is all that would really be needed. But that is only my thoughts.

It would be great to have Greater magic re published. Even tho it's rather easy to find I think someone should reprint Bruce Elliot's Classic Secrets of Magic. That is such an underrated book in my opinion. It's worth being made more easily obtained.
Message: Posted by: mike greene (Jul 28, 2010 11:24AM)
I'd rather not see Greater Magic republished, I want to keep it to myself and taunt my peers!

Seriously though, one of the greatest books on magic ever written. I picked it up at a charity shop completely by chance when I was first starting out, as I'd heard whispers about it being rare and brilliant. Skimmed through it once, decided it was a dusty old piece of crap and put it in some cupboard or other. A few years go by and I've matured quite a lot as a magician, and I come across this again during a clear out of my things.

WOW. For a volume of its size, its still packed with gold. Card magic, coin magic, gimmicked cards, card fans, rising cards, silk magic, billiard magic, stage magic, prearranged decks. You name it, it's in this book, and the best of the best techniques and effects are presented.

It's often said you could make a career as a professional magician using only the Tarbell course. If you throw in Greater Magic, there's more material than you could ever possibly use.

If anybody owns this book and doesn't appreciate the material in it, try the Tuned Deck on an audience just once. The techniques used are chosen specifically to stay one step ahead of your audience, and it's an absolutely fantastic routine.

Some books are placed above others simply for the fact they're out of print and unattainable. Greater Magic is so highly sought after not only because it's out of print, but because it's the most important magic book published since 'Our Magic'. Find it, read it, use it.