(Close Window)
Topic: Fake or something else???
Message: Posted by: Muzz (Jun 28, 2010 01:22PM)
Hi, I've become interested in hypnosis recently, or more specifically stage hypnosis, hence my recent activity in this forum. I've purchased a few stage show dvds just to see what it looks like in action and I've really enjoyed them. However, one thing I noticed that I'd like your opinions on. In one dvd the hypnotist assigned different pieces of music to different spectators, saying that each one would carry out a post-hyp everytime they heard their song. Interestingly enough out of the three spectators the first two carried out their post-hyps perfectly when their music played, however the hypnotist made a mistake and pressed the wrong button for the final spectator resulting in a totally different piece of music. Here's the thing...the final spectator STILL acted on their post-hyp, which says to me two things: Either
a) The spectator was faking all along and made the mistake of acting on the wrong piece of music
b) The subconscious expectancy of the spectator that "his piece of music would be next" caused him to act.
OR some third option that I don't know. What do you think? Was this guy just faking it? This was towards the end of the show which means if he was he had been faking for well over an hour.

Thoughts?
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Jun 29, 2010 12:55AM)
Could have been either reason. If hypnotised I would be surprised if he did this though.

In my first show everyone on stage had done everything I asked and I was confidnt they were hypnotised. They had all done a variety of group and individual routines. Halfway through I told them that when I counted to three they would jump up believing they were Eminem, dance rap and sing like him etc and anyone else who appeared to do the same they would out Eminem them. My soundman cued the music and I bellowed 1,2 wide awake.

No one moved. Not a flicker of interest, not an eye open or even a shift in position. The musical cue had no effect in confusing them. Non one moved because I made the mistake of saying 1,2 wide awake and not counting to three as I suggested I would. For me it was an illustration of how literally suggestions can be taken. It was also a reminder to be consistent with my trigger :)

That is why I think it more likely that in the example you gave the subject was trying too hard rather than being confused or responding automatically.

All the best

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jun 29, 2010 09:05PM)
I don't know about anyone else here, but, when it comes to stage hypnosis, your results are a potpouri:

1: You will have some people that do as suggested perfectly - this makes for a solid skit.

2: You will have some people that somewhat do as suggested, but, they like to go astray from you had in mind - This can take a skit to a higher level. The best stuff is the unscripted/unexpected stuff that happens. If you are quick on your feet, this is to your benefit.

3: You will have some people that do it part of the time - If it is a song based skit, they may possibly not know the song, or I guess, could hate the song so much personally, they kind of " block it out"...maybe??

4: You will also have some people that do nothing - This is my wife. She is what I refer to as "hypno-lazy". Once she gets into a state of hypnosis, she goes straight past levels 1 through 4 and usually hovers in around 5 or 6. She will do some things given to her, but, you can see the look of aggrevation on her face. When I bring her out ( which is quite a task, I might add ), her response is " It just felt so good being there ,that, doing what you told me was irritating me. I just wanted to be left alone there for a while." She is naturally a lazy person, so I guess this figures into her personality.

She went on stage at someone else's show 2 years ago and did the exact same thing. She did absolutely nothing that was suggested to her. Long story short, the guy comes to me and says " I can't get her up. Take her home and she will be okay." I said, " Just threaten to take her out and never allow her to go to that place again and she will usually start to wake right up." He did....and she sorta woke up. I went up and said a few nasty things I was going to do to her in bed...she snapped out of it ( evidently twisting the sheets with me is not her idea of a good time ). He realized I was a hypnotist at that point. We talked for about an hour. He said he gets someone like that about 1 out of 8 or 9 shows, but, never had one as bad as her. -Shane
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jun 30, 2010 04:09AM)
You mean somebody asked you to take someone home who was still in a deep state of hypnosis? that's a really bad hypnotist. And one reason why it should be regulated.
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jun 30, 2010 05:24PM)
In his defense, she was not completely "in" at this point. She was in and out.....mostly out. Which is typical for her. She is an odd duck. If I were to put her in and take her out immediately, she would go straight to bed....done!! She has been that way from the very first time she was hypnotized.-Shane
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jun 30, 2010 06:35PM)
Some of us think it is all fakery. If I ever hypnotised anyone it was by accident.
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jun 30, 2010 07:16PM)
I said mostly out.... I meant she was mostly in trance. -Shane
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Jul 3, 2010 12:45PM)
I think that he could have been faking it, but on the other hand,you never know how the unconscious mind is going to react to a stimulus. For example, sometimes when I perform X-Ray glasses to a bunch of people at the same time, I get most of them seeing people naked through the glasses, but some of them just see everybody naked without wearing the glasses, which gives me room for a good joke even though they are not doing exactly what I suggested.

Giovanni.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 3, 2010 12:50PM)
Tony

that's right they often fake being hypnotised even after the show. They pretend to be in a trance.

Makes perfect sense...I mean its prett logical eh?

Tiriri

If they are seeing naked people without glasses your suggestions need tweaked.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 3, 2010 12:57PM)
>>>>a) The spectator was faking all along and made the mistake of acting on the wrong piece of music
b) The subconscious expectancy of the spectator that "his piece of music would be next" caused him to act.
OR some third option that I don't know. What do you think? Was this guy just faking it? This was towards the end of the show which means if he was he had been faking for well over an hour.

Thoughts? <<<<

If I saw it I could tell if someone was faking it almost immediately. However since I didn't see it would assume that if it wasn't fake then suggestions need tweaked.

However there are some hypnotists who continue with people faking it. I get them off the stage immediately. Its a sign of an inexperienced or badly skilled hypnotist who isn't in control of the show.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jul 3, 2010 05:06PM)
If you believe they are all faking it, then you will inevitably end up with a stage full of fakes. I tend to eliminate the bad and obvious fakes, keeping those who are throwing themselves into it completely.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 3, 2010 05:41PM)
Your logic makes no sense. And why would someone continue to fake it after the show and not come out of trance? Or fake amnesia? I think you fake believing its fake. Its more obvious that your beliefs are fake.

How are things anyway not seen you on here much?
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jul 3, 2010 06:11PM)
Full and unrelenting confidence is needed for this art. Fortunately for me, I have the perfect blend of arrogance and ignorance. Not everyone can do this. I said this in another thread and kind of got slapped around about it.

It is not that they can't learn it, but, it requires a certain type of character to pull this off successfully. As an example, in high school, I played and loved football ( American football to my brothers across the pond ). I had great physique and size ( 6'1" and 220 pounds and all muscle then....all fat now...and a few more pounds ). I was supposed to play for Penn State.....there was just one wee little problem. I SUCKED!! I knew all the plays. I knew all the techniques. I just didn't have "it".....whatever "it" is. I practiced on my own as well as scheduled practices. I really worked hard and everybody knew it....coaches, parents, team mates, friends. Nobody on that team worked as hard as I did, but, I just wasn't that good. Could have been physiological, psychological, both.... whatever. It was what it was.

I feel hypnosis as well as most other things in life are like this. You may want it, but, you may not get it. You may go to all the clinicals, watch the DVD's, read the books and still not be able to perform if you do not sell yourself to your audience.

I notice all the different personalities on this forum and several of them really get on by bashing others for their confessed techniques and ideals. I also noticed that the members I consider to be top notch professionals, avoid this as it is bad for their business as well , even more so, know that not everything works the same way for everybody. Ant is very smooth. Nongard is an authoritarian. Cerbone's amp goes to 11. This works for them and will not work for me. I have a completely different approach and it works well....for me.-Shane
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Jul 3, 2010 06:19PM)
Hi mindpunisher,

You are probably right about the suggestions because I did notice a couple of times that I was emphasizing too much about seeing people naked, so probably they took that part of the suggestion it literally ignoring the glasses part.

Giovanni.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 4, 2010 10:33AM)
Emphasize this ::: "Only when you look through the glasses do you see them naked these are magic glasses".

Or emphazise that the glasses are magic without them everything is normal but when you look through them you see everyone naked.

Also think about the reactions you want to work with to make it funnier. You might say somethin like " you will be really impatient to get your turn because you will be really looking forward to lookng through those glasses and you will be unable to contain your excitement"

" when you get them you will be totally amazed at what you see it will be be one of the most erotic experiences you will ever have etc"

You could also pick on one and tell them it will an awful experience all the women or all the men will be really fat and flabby or whatever.

I don't do this skit but If I were to I would try and squeeze more out of it by amplifying the reactions and then trying to get them to all play off each other.

You could get two of them arguing about what they see one saying how sexy the women are and describing details and he other disagreeing telling what he says. Winding the volunteers up and getting them interacting with each other can pull up some funny moments that you couldn't script.

Just an idea.
Message: Posted by: tiriri (Jul 4, 2010 08:08PM)
Thanks for the advice mindpunisher! You gave me some good ideas :)

Giovanni.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 5, 2010 06:57AM)
Tony is obviously a knowledgable guy. But I also have challenges with his claims of faking etc. The obvious answer is that our collective communications (in The Café)are mixed up, indeed that our belief maps of what this stuff actually is does NOT allow us to start from the same premises. When that happens it's almost impossible to find a common ground and a total waste of time arguing.
For what it's worth I've been fortunate enough to talk and work with some of the great hypnotists, who in some cases, claimed there was 'no such thing as hypnosis'.
It was only later, sitting down with a nice glass of wine that allowed us to openly explain our individual premises and maps that we came to agreement... always. (and that agreement was never that one of us was right and the other wrong).
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 5, 2010 07:59AM)
You've not sat down with me yet...


I think you probably subscribe to most of what I think anyway...
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 5, 2010 01:36PM)
No I haven't sat down with you yet Brysie. But I have on two occasions allowed you to kiss my hand and curtsey (which you did very well). I know there's other guys reading this but I don't care. You're cute... very cute. Just don't think I haven't noticed! ok?
Also you're a class above. What other hypnotist gets guys to strip off in a bath an w-nk each other off to the tune of 'Said the pink toothbrush to the blue toothbrush'? Your a fecking class act and that's undeniable!!!
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 5, 2010 01:38PM)
Well I was brought up proper ya ken.,
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 5, 2010 02:47PM)
Anyway when did you become particular about hypno shows? Tickets are now moving for the HMV. Posters are up everywhere. I think they will sell out.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 5, 2010 04:53PM)
Jeez I assumed I'd just turn up and pick one up, that's fantastis news, well done you!!!
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 5, 2010 05:14PM)
Well they still have loads left they are just moving them from the front to the back...then to the front again.

They are selling a few already...though.. It's a fantastic location. It will be buzzing on the night. I think they will sell out though.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 6, 2010 05:36AM)
Do you want me to catch for you? I've got this new black lurex tight fitting T- shirt I wanna try on. And you can nip oot for a fag while I do 'the invisible sex machine' with 'em.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 6, 2010 09:09AM)
Could you resusitate the rubber dolls?
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 6, 2010 10:23AM)
Orally or the other way?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 6, 2010 11:54AM)
Well I'll leave that up to your artistic intepretation..
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jul 6, 2010 05:41PM)
If there are rubber dolls and Bobser in a tight fitting T-shirt involved...I want in on it!! Just send me a passport and a plane ticket.-Shane
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jul 6, 2010 06:19PM)
Rubber dolls, black lurex T shirt and a guy called 'Shane Masters'.
My wife thinks I'm online looking up: 'steam trains of the 1930's'.
She simply has no idea I'm this wild other person!!!
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jul 6, 2010 06:55PM)
Is that steam trains or steamy trannies of the 1930's ?-Shane
Message: Posted by: Nongard1 (Jul 6, 2010 11:01PM)
It does not matter if they are hypnotized, faking, or socail compliance. WHat matters is that the host paid you (or they bought tickets) for an entertaining show. Entertainment is far more important than hypnosis at a hypnosis show. I could care less who is and who isn't hypnotized, and if they are "deep or not"
What I do care about is, did everyone have a good time and were they entertained.

As for the "coma command", telling someone they "Just threaten to take her out and never allow her to go to that place again " is totally UNETHICAL and it is contrary to any humanistic appraoch to hypnosis. If someone is "stuck in hypnosis" (which is an imposibility) it is becasue they want 5 more minutes of fame screwing up the hypnotist, or are drunk or asleep, or drifting off into la-la-land and neither consiously or unconsiously listening. And so
1.) Snap/clap loud telling them to open the eyes
2.) Blow sharply into the closed eyelid, they WILL pop out
3.) Let them sleep - Tell them, they can emerge on their own when they are ready and you will be there cleaning up and packing up, so they have all the time they want.... Trust me, they WILL wake up...
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 7, 2010 12:59AM)
>>>>As for the "coma command", telling someone they "Just threaten to take her out and never allow her to go to that place again " is totally UNETHICAL and it is contrary to any humanistic appraoch to hypnosis<<<<


How can the above be unethical if you believe your volunteers are faking it or are just responding to social compliance? Nothing is unethical since hypnosis doesn't exist right?

>>>>1.) Snap/clap loud telling them to open the eyes
2.) Blow sharply into the closed eyelid, they WILL pop out
3.) Let them sleep - Tell them, they can emerge on their own when they are ready and you will be there cleaning up and packing up, so they have all the time they want.... Trust me, they WILL wake up...<<<<<

Occasionally you will get a volunteer who doesn't wake up or respond to any of the above suggestions. I have had at least two in my career. In one case a female had two hearing aids one in each ear. She came up on stage went into trance and lay there for the duration of the two hour show. After the show it took 45 mins before she eventually woke and didn't know who her boy friend was. It took another 20 mins to re-orientate her into the room. Pretty good faking. Yes they will always wake up unless you deliberately kill them. Unfortunately there were too many witnesses.
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jul 7, 2010 07:04AM)
Richard,

As a big fan of yours, I am interested in why you would consider this tactic unethical. It is not something that is actually ever going to happen. It is a scare tactic, but, so is clapping your hands. I had a girl urinate in her pants when I did this. No kidding. She wouldn't come out and I didn't have time to wait for however long it would have taken her. I tried everything else , but the scare tactic.... I use that as a last resort. I tried flicking cold water on her face. Nothing.

I clapped my hands and she looked at me like I was Freddy Kruger. She litterally peed herself right there.

I told the other hypnotist to do the coma tactic to my wife to get her out. The reason is: If you don't, she will lay they for hours. She is one truly lazy individual. -Shane
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jul 7, 2010 08:16AM)
[quote]
On 2010-07-07 00:01, Nongard1 wrote:
It does not matter if they are hypnotized, faking, or socail compliance. WHat matters is that the host paid you (or they bought tickets) for an entertaining show. Entertainment is far more important than hypnosis at a hypnosis show. I could care less who is and who isn't hypnotized, and if they are "deep or not"
What I do care about is, did everyone have a good time and were they entertained.[/quote]
That has to be the best comment on hypnosis I have ever heard.

Mindpunisher and Bobser, you might be right. I might be completely wrong. But until someone proves it for me I will continue to operate on the basis that it is all social compliance. When I walk on to a stage I am looking for compliance, not trance. And that works for me.

Mindpunisher, you are right. I have been missing a lot. I've finished three books in the last three months (the last one today) and I have almost forgotten what my kids look like. But it's great to hear you are cracking the fringe. Best of luck with the show.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 7, 2010 06:00PM)
Thanks Tony I'm now looking forward to doing a few shows. I couldn't have got a better venue its been a long time coming back round again.

Ok theres no point trying to prove anything. Although I disagree respecfully with Richard I think it does matter a lot. Otherwise why not do card tricks instead?
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Jul 7, 2010 08:46PM)
Richard,

I actually found your point of view posted over at hypnothoughts.com regarding the " coma command ". I definately see and understand your point of view on this matter. I have trained with several other certified hypnotherapist ( keep in mind, I am a hypnotist...... not a hypnotherapist ), and all of them stated this was an acceptable way to get someone out of this level of relaxation. Some prefer an altered form of this method so that it appears to not be so.....aggressive.

I am not saying who is right or wrong, I am just wondering why there are different views on this with people who are successful and have the same credentials as far as certifications and trainings go. I am assuming it has more to do with personal beliefs and interpretation than anything else. -Shane
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 8, 2010 06:06AM)
I think I first read about this way of waking someone up in a Dave Elman book? Its been a way used by stage hypnotists for a long time.

I don't think its unethical or has any negative effects. I think there are better ways. But very occasionally you might find someone that doesn't respond to any of the usual methods. But they will wake up when ready. Although you need good people management skills or you could find yourself in an awkard situation.

I am both hypnotist/hypnotherapist and have developed ways of using hypnosis in a number of contexts.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jul 8, 2010 06:54PM)
The only time I ever saw someone not come out immediately on being instructed to was someone who was stoned out of his mind. I dismissed him from the stage quickly, but when I finished the show I was told that someone was in another part of the bar, where his friends had taken him. The plonker was stretched out on a snooker table.

I told them to take him home and sober him up. If that didn't work they could take him to the hospital and have his stomach pumped. In either case his condition had nothing to do with the hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 8, 2010 09:51PM)
That's because your a fake hypnotist. They should really hire a real one.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jul 9, 2010 08:46AM)
We have a "real" hypnostist here in Cork. He takes twenty minutes for a quick induction, and does a show that makes saying the Rosery seem like entertainment.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 9, 2010 01:05PM)
Hes a poor hypnotist not a "real one". Well at least he does an induction. You just fake it.