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Topic: All in the mind?
Message: Posted by: Hawk-Eye (Aug 2, 2010 07:48PM)
I know there have been past discussions on this topic, but thought it might be interesting to get some more modern opinions.

Do you, especially those practicing hypnosis, believe it can be explained by the placebo effect - ie. that there is no such thing as 'hypnosis', and it is the subject's belief that they're being hypnotised that makes the experience real for them?

Do subjects respond to suggestions purely because you tell them to?

Do they do this consciously? Unconsciously?
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Aug 2, 2010 07:59PM)
Hawk,

I think discussions regarding the reality of hypnosis are deemed a no-no. Maybe I am wrong, but, it is kind of accepted that if you come here, that you agree hypnosis is what it is..... a form of entertainement. -Shane
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Aug 2, 2010 08:05PM)
I need to lay off the freaking booze. I am starting to sound like the internet police in that last post. Who am I kidding, I like the booze too much.-Shane
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 2, 2010 09:25PM)
You are correct Shane as this is explained in the rules of this forum, which it seems many that have recently arrived have yet to read.
Message: Posted by: Nongard1 (Aug 3, 2010 12:43AM)
Isn't "placebo" effect the most desired effect? Achieving rsults with no "risk"?
Hypnosis isn't "one" thing, it is a combination of things. For some clients the change is produced by the ritual, for others the hypnotoic phenomena, for others simply because of the will, and yet others social compliance.
Does it really matter? No.
In stage hypnosis I could care less if they are hypnotized or not, my obligation is to create entertainment for those who bought tickets. Hypnosis or no hypnosis, the "show" better be good.
In clinical hypnosis, I have had many clients say, "Well, I am not sure if I was really hypnotized, but I havn't had a cigarette in four days!" Who cares if they were or were not hypnotized - they paid for results and that is what they got. Sometimes through hypnotic phenomena, sometimes for other reasons, but if the results are there, everyone is happy.
Message: Posted by: Hawk-Eye (Aug 3, 2010 01:36AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-02 22:25, Mindpro wrote:
You are correct Shane as this is explained in the rules of this forum, which it seems many that have recently arrived have yet to read.
[/quote]

In response to this pseudo-subtle sideswipe, [i]this[/i] 'recently arrived' user has posts in this forum dating back to August 2008.

I have read the rules; however, I didn't recall discussions about the existence of hypnosis being forbidden.
Message: Posted by: robaiken (Aug 3, 2010 03:50AM)
2) No ARGUMENTS ABOUT THE "REALITY" OF HYPNOSIS

not much of a hawk eye. Sorry jokes, you must of seen that coming.

I would like a discussion on the reality of hypnosis. But this is the wrong forum to have it in.
Message: Posted by: Hawk-Eye (Aug 3, 2010 04:24AM)
A hawk's eye, but as stated above, a less-than-perfect memory. ;)
Message: Posted by: bobser (Aug 3, 2010 05:27AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-02 21:05, Shane Masters wrote:
I need to lay off the freaking booze. I am starting to sound like the internet police in that last post. Who am I kidding, I like the booze too much.-Shane
[/quote]

Thanks for making me laugh out loud Shane.

And when Hawk aske for more modern views he probabable doesn't realise that the 'old fashioned views' are probably only a few weeks old (look 'em up).
The thing is the argument doesn't go anywhere Hawk, and most in here are now happy to believe and/or accept that it IS real. Mainly because it's true and it'll save you years in the wilderness trying to prove a negative.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 3, 2010 06:40AM)
I laugh whenever I hear the "placebo" chant. Its as if its a way to devalue hypnosis. But when you think about it - isn't the placebo effect an incredible thing that no one has ever managed to explain. "only suggestion" doesn't really describe some of the amazing things that happen once the minds own healing and belief mechanisms are kicked off.

I believe a placebo is just one way the mind accepts suggestion. Hypnosis is the process of delivering suggestions in a focused way to create an outcome. One of which is to induce trance for stage work. But it is not the only outcome.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Aug 3, 2010 09:20AM)
Hawk-Eye, if you have an interest in the facts about Placebo read the Cochrane meta study of clinical placebo trials.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 3, 2010 09:57AM)
Here is a very interesting article that suggest placebos actually physically change the brain which can be detected in scans. They can even open the same pathways that drugs do.

It also suggest that many mainstream medicines are effective because of the placebo effect and that doctors etc try to keep it quiet.

I am sure you will find research/articles that say the opposite. Make up your own mind.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2002/jun/20/research.highereducation
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Aug 3, 2010 10:42AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-03 10:57, mindpunisher wrote:

I am sure you will find research/articles that say the opposite.
[/quote]

A great rationale for reading the meta-study.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 3, 2010 11:34AM)
A)Placebo works and is powerful or b)its over exaggerated I am sure you will find arguments/research on both sides. But then it beomes a double bind. If you choose a) placebo is poweerful and behind most mainstream medicine and hypnosis is placebo then its still amazingly powerful and real. If you chose b) placebo is exagerrated then hypnosis is still amazing because it can't be just placebo.

Win/win

But then again I never believed hypnosis was placebo anyway. Placebo is just one way to deliver suggestion that's all.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Aug 3, 2010 11:37AM)
I met someone a year or so ago at some psychology cheese and wine thingy, who claimed he spent some time working on placebos. Anyway the fact is I didn't really understand what he was saying. If I remember correctly he gave me loads of numbers but felt there was no conclusive statement he could honestly make. I remember nodding my head slowly and saying "mmm hmmm" a lot, as I wondered how to get another drink.
Assuming all rationale is based on assumed or accepted premise, couldn't you just give us the numbers Ant? I'm sure it's a heavy read!
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Aug 3, 2010 11:52AM)
Bobser, those who know the numbers will not do hypnosis the disservice of suggesting it is all 'placebo'. I am sure you have the time to read the abstract.

Ant
Message: Posted by: robaiken (Aug 3, 2010 12:21PM)
Sorry double post
Message: Posted by: Engali (Aug 3, 2010 06:22PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-02 20:48, Hawk-Eye wrote:
I know there have been past discussions on this topic, but thought it might be interesting to get some more modern opinions.

Do you, especially those practicing hypnosis, believe it can be explained by the placebo effect - ie. that there is no such thing as 'hypnosis', and it is the subject's belief that they're being hypnotised that makes the experience real for them?

Do subjects respond to suggestions purely because you tell them to?

Do they do this consciously? Unconsciously?
[/quote]

1) No, but I think the placebo effect can be explained by hypnosis.

2)By "purely" do you mean "only" or "just"? Then no. Obviously you telling, verbally or otherwise, to do things is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for hypnosis to take effect. I'm beginning to really dislike any synonym for "just" when discussing hypnosis since it is, as Richard Nongard pointed it, a discipline that draws from many different fields. By its nature hypnosis defies reductionism. Really ponder the meaning of induction. What happens when you use inductive reasoning instead of deductive? Hint: Sherlock Holmes never "deduced" anything. He INDUCED conclusions.

3) Both.