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Topic: Mandatory JROTC?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 25, 2010 09:18AM)
What are they putting in the drinking water in South Carolina? At first I thought this was about some private and/or charter school which would make it understandable. But this is an ordinary public school effectively mandating this for 14 year olds.

One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself.

Though parents may "opt out," clearly there is a social price to be paid.

Read more: [url=http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/08/23/1651243/sc-high-school-freshmen-take-junior.html#ixzz0xcv3XkI5] here[/url].

Welcome to Sparta.

Yes I know, there'll be all those replies that a little military training will do those wild kids good.

You know what, that's largely a myth--take a wild kid with authority problems, give him a gun and severe discipline, send him to a combat zone where he sees all kinds of weird ****, and you end up with a messed-up human being almost every time.

But it's always easier to treat a problem with the easy mechanistic solution, than the human one.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Aug 25, 2010 12:45PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-25 10:18, landmark wrote:
You know what, that's largely a myth--take a wild kid with authority problems, give him a gun and severe discipline, send him to a combat zone where he sees all kinds of weird s**t, and you end up with a messed-up human being almost every time.
[/quote]
That's so true and yet so sad. The part that really bugs me, having been in the military, is the fact that what the military can really teach you (such as confidence, leadership, getting your act together, getting along with others, respect for others, working as a team, and so forth) is so often pushed to the back in the common perception, in favor of the yelling, running, shooting, fragging, and other stuff that we see in the movies and the media.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Aug 25, 2010 12:48PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-25 10:18, landmark wrote:
What are they putting in the drinking water in South Carolina? At first I thought this was about some private and/or charter school which would make it understandable. But this is an ordinary public school effectively mandating this for 14 year olds.

One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself.

Though parents may "opt out," clearly there is a social price to be paid.

Read more: [url=http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/08/23/1651243/sc-high-school-freshmen-take-junior.html#ixzz0xcv3XkI5] here[/url].

Welcome to Sparta.

Yes I know, there'll be all those replies that a little military training will do those wild kids good.

You know what, that's largely a myth--take a wild kid with authority problems, give him a gun and severe discipline, send him to a combat zone where he sees all kinds of weird s**t, and you end up with a messed-up human being almost every time.

But it's always easier to treat a problem with the easy mechanistic solution, than the human one.
[/quote]

I'm with you on this one. Seems entirely out-of-place at a public school.
Message: Posted by: Douglas Lippert (Aug 25, 2010 04:04PM)
"South Carolina high school students must take one credit of physical education and ROTC can fill the requirement."


It does not say they have to take JROTC. The kid picked gym and everyone else picked JROTC. Simple as that.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 25, 2010 04:19PM)
You and your silly facts....dang you!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 25, 2010 07:24PM)
From the article:

"One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself."
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 25, 2010 07:26PM)
I would think the situation is more so that young Charles didn't sign up for PE so the system assigned a class to him. My highschool was the same way, either you signed up or they just put you into a class.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Aug 25, 2010 11:05PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-25 20:24, landmark wrote:
From the article:

"One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself."
[/quote]

He obviously had the choice of taking the ROTC course which fulfilled the PE course but chose not to take so they put him in a PE class by himself. What is the problem here? And to be honest it was probably his parents that do not want him in the ROTC class, not himself as everyone else is fine with it. Seems like the school is going out of their way to appease him and his parents.

Bring back the draft.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Aug 25, 2010 11:18PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 00:05, acesover wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-25 20:24, landmark wrote:
From the article:

"One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself."
[/quote]

He obviously had the choice of taking the ROTC course which fulfilled the PE course but chose not to take so they put him in a PE class by himself. What is the problem here? And to be honest it was probably his parents that do not want him in the ROTC class, not himself as everyone else is fine with it. Seems like the school is going out of their way to appease him and his parents.

Bring back the draft.
[/quote]

I don't think a public school freshman's only P.E. options should be military training, or a 1-person class.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 25, 2010 11:19PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 00:05, acesover wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-25 20:24, landmark wrote:
From the article:

"One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself."
[/quote]

He obviously had the choice of taking the ROTC course which fulfilled the PE course but chose not to take so they put him in a PE class by himself.
[/quote]
Actually, no, he did not.

A little more about it here:

http://www.gtowntimes.com/search/Principal-replaces-gym-class-with-ROTC2010-08-22T17-48-57

The facts appear to be a little different from what I think some here have assumed.

In particular, it appears that there was no choice in the matter. PE was simply replaced with junior ROTC for everyone. It was only when the father complained and spoke to the State Board of Education, that the principal's decision to eliminate PE was challenged.

In fact, the son is not even in PE now. It is a "Career Skills" class.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 25, 2010 11:33PM)
I don't believe any of 'em. Teens are self serving little liars and their parents believe them and enforce whatever they decide is truth. I could not care less about this little whiney rat #@$@#@ kid or his parents. Put him in drama.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Aug 25, 2010 11:42PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 00:33, MagicSanta wrote:
I don't believe any of 'em. Teens are self serving little liars and their parents believe them and enforce whatever they decide is truth. I could not care less about this little whiney rat #@$@#@ kid or his parents. Put him in drama.
[/quote]

Comical but important. Kids and parents can say pretty much anything about school, but school officials are severely restricted in what they can say about kids and parents.


John
Message: Posted by: acesover (Aug 25, 2010 11:46PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 00:18, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 00:05, acesover wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-25 20:24, landmark wrote:
From the article:

"One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself."
[/quote]

He obviously had the choice of taking the ROTC course which fulfilled the PE course but chose not to take so they put him in a PE class by himself. What is the problem here? And to be honest it was probably his parents that do not want him in the ROTC class, not himself as everyone else is fine with it. Seems like the school is going out of their way to appease him and his parents.

Bring back the draft.
[/quote]

I don't think a public school freshman's only P.E. options should be military training, or a 1-person class.
[/quote]

Do we actually know what this class consists of? Seems to me that most of the kids want to take this class except this one and that is why he is in a class by himself. If another class was not offered the same people here would be complaining that he had no choice. So now he has a choice and they are still complaining. Go figure.

Your mentioning that you do not think a freshmans class should not be only PE or a one personclass. Well he made it a one person class as no one else elected to take it. They actually gave the Freshman a choice of a requireed credit which is PE and he chose not to take the popular one. So are you saying that we should force some of the others that chose the ROTC class to take the standard PE class to make him feel accepted. I can see the trama he is going to have. Better call in the experts and analize him for how this will affect him in future years. The school is doing him a big disservice by giving him a choice. What is wrong with this picture? If you cannot figure it out you are definitely part of the problem.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 25, 2010 11:49PM)
Around here the kids get to shoot at PE! In the bay area we were not even allowed to spell the word 'gun'.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 25, 2010 11:51PM)
Acesover, did you miss my post above? Until he complained, he DID NOT have a choice. PE was simply eliminated at the school. Furthermore, he is not in PE now. He is in "Career Skills".
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 25, 2010 11:52PM)
Career skills are good to have.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Aug 26, 2010 12:03AM)
In fact, the son is not even in PE now. It is a "Career Skills" class.


What the heck is a career Skills class? Does he take basket weaviing and home ec instead of PE? Like someone said here..let him take Drama instead of PE. They should have just called it PE instead of even mentioning ROTC.

Does anyone know what this ROTC class entails" Or are we just assuming? Climbing up a rope or scalinig a wall is still PE but I guess it could also be called ROTC training... not sure eigher of these are in the program just pointing it out. Running is definitely military training but it is also military training. All thesse things increase endurance and stamina...much more that sitting in front of your computer or texting. However perhaps the computer and texting are what is now called "Career skill classes" of course this is just supposition on my part, but I would not be the least bit surprised if it were so.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 26, 2010 12:06AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 01:03, acesover wrote:

Does anyone know what this ROTC class entails"
[/quote]
Here. Knock yourself out. :)

https://www.usarmyjrotc.com/
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Aug 26, 2010 12:07AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 00:46, acesover wrote:
What is wrong with this picture? If you cannot figure it out you are definitely part of the problem.
[/quote]

Thanks for illustrating one of my favorite rhetorical tricks: "If you don't agree with my position, you must not understand it."
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 26, 2010 12:33AM)
I remember we had a PE teacher who just returned from Vietnam, he was a Marine. It took them a bit more than a week to realize he was, uh, very mentally strained and torturing us basically. I hope he got better....
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 26, 2010 01:04AM)
[quote]On 2010-08-26 01:03, acesover wrote:
Running is definitely military training but it is also military training.[/quote]
?
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 26, 2010 01:07AM)
[quote]On 2010-08-26 01:33, MagicSanta wrote:
I remember we had a PE teacher who just returned from Vietnam, he was a Marine.[/quote]
For a while we attended a church in Santa Ana and helped out with the nursary and toddlers. There were lots of Marines there who worked with the toddlers. They taught them to crawl on their bellies with their elbows, and when they got good the guys would bring them gunnery sergeant insignia and what-have-you. The kids loved it!
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 26, 2010 01:29AM)
I've known guys who do that with their kids and mean it....this PE teacher was insane, I mean he finally refused to let us go to other classes and that was his final downfall.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Aug 26, 2010 10:15AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 01:06, balducci wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 01:03, acesover wrote:

Does anyone know what this ROTC class entails"
[/quote]
Here. Knock yourself out. :)

https://www.usarmyjrotc.com/
[/quote]


Haviing taken your advice I knocked myself out and went to that site.

Wow! What an eye opener. I had no idea that this was a whole systemm of teaching and not just a class replacing PE. I cannot belieive that the individual that declined to go to these classes was the only one. From what I saw on the site you seem to be removed from regular classes. I assumed (and we all know what that does) that this was a class that replace PE not a whole program. It may be beneficial to some but it should be in no way mandatory. This was my second mistake my first being that I thought I know evereything. My bad. Very bad.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Aug 26, 2010 10:24AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 11:15, acesover wrote:
...my first being that I thought I know everything....
[/quote]

You mean we hadn't long ago dispossessed you of that particular thought? We're not doing our jobs very well.

Beer for everyone!

:stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout:
:stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout:
:stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout:
:stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout:
:stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout:
:stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout:
:stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout: :stout:
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 26, 2010 10:46AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 11:15, acesover wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 01:06, balducci wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 01:03, acesover wrote:

Does anyone know what this ROTC class entails"
[/quote]
Here. Knock yourself out. :)

https://www.usarmyjrotc.com/
[/quote]


Haviing taken your advice I knocked myself out and went to that site.

Wow! What an eye opener. I had no idea that this was a whole systemm of teaching and not just a class replacing PE. I cannot belieive that the individual that declined to go to these classes was the only one. From what I saw on the site you seem to be removed from regular classes. I assumed (and we all know what that does) that this was a class that replace PE not a whole program. It may be beneficial to some but it should be in no way mandatory. This was my second mistake my first being that I thought I know evereything. My bad. Very bad.
[/quote]
I don't know how much of that they implemented at the school in question but, yeah, it generally entails much more than just PE.

My youngest niece did the regular Air Force ROTC ... it was a big commitment and took up a lot of her time.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 26, 2010 02:57PM)
Did she do it in college?
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 26, 2010 03:10PM)
I read the articles and I am still leaning toward this being much ado about nothing and the situation is being exagerated. I believe the truth is they have a physical education class which is based upon the JROTC program. The implication is the entire ciriculum was changed and that the 9th graders will be running around in uniforms etc.. You know what? I do not see what a leadership and responsibility class an do to harm them and it likely will increase graduation numbers. Do some of you believe the children will enter the 10th grade with bandana's on their heads wrapped in 60 cal rounds, their muscles bulging, as they wait to go shoot up a small Oregon town? Ever thought that maybe that one kid is the only one with a parent who didn't quite get it and complained? No, we are suppose to believe he is enlightened and all other parents are idiots.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 26, 2010 08:36PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 15:57, MagicSanta wrote:
Did she do it in college?
[/quote]
Yeah. She went to Georgetown in DC. Which does not have an Air Force ROTC program. So she elected to do her ROTC at nearby Howard University. She graduated from both programs a couple / few months ago. Her brother and sister both went to U.S. military academies, but this niece did not want the 24/7 military experience while she was in school.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 26, 2010 08:41PM)
Great school. ROTC can help pay for college is why I asked. Being a genius I turned down a full scholarship to Northwestern under the NROTC, which is big there. I should have done it. They must have loved her at Howard! The military academies are also excellent, very tough to even get accepted so that alone is impressive.

There was a really fun super lib from San Francisco, can't recall his name, who was into gambling routines that went to Georgetown law, his inlaws were nice enough to send him, and he seems to have vanished. He likely is a well paid super conservative lawyer by now....might be Lobowolf, who knows?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 26, 2010 08:46PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 16:10, MagicSanta wrote:
I read the articles and I am still leaning toward this being much ado about nothing and the situation is being exagerated. I believe the truth is they have a physical education class which is based upon the JROTC program.
[/quote]
Well, I don't know. The principal of the school is a Navy Veteran, and the school's program is a military sponsored Marine Corps JROTC class run by a Master Sergeant. Being military sponsored, I don't think it is likely just to be "based" on JROTC.

More info [url=http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/08/22/1649170/carvers-bay-enlists-ninth-grade.html]here[/url] and [url=http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/is-the-government-pushing-high-school-students-into-junior-rotc-programs]here.[/url]

"The rationale for promoting JROTC, according to state education officials, is that it fulfills South Carolina's requirement that all students complete one credit of physical education. The JROTC program meets the standard for the physical education requirement."

"However, school principle Richard Neal admitted that all 9th grade students were automatically enrolled in the JROTC program. And Master Sergeant Joe Epps, who runs the program for Carvers Bay High School, stated that 'what used to be the physical education element, we have taken that over.'"

---

By the way, here is the school page of Master Sergeant Joe D. Epps, Jr., Senior Marine Instructor - LE-II, LE-III & LE-IV:

http://www4.gcsd.k12.sc.us/education/staff/staff.php?sectionid=4196&
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 26, 2010 08:52PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 21:41, MagicSanta wrote:
Great school. ROTC can help pay for college is why I asked. Being a genius I turned down a full scholarship to Northwestern under the NROTC, which is big there. I should have done it. They must have loved her at Howard!
[/quote]
Yeah, I think she had a great time at both places. She stood out a little at Howard, but she made some good friends there. Her husband (they were recently married) is finishing at Purdue this fall, and is in ROTC there. So they'll be a military couple for at least the next 4, 5, 6 years (I forget for exactly how long they are now indebted to the military).
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 26, 2010 08:57PM)
Not indebted, no one held a gun to their head, how long they have the priviledge of serving.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 26, 2010 09:03PM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 21:57, MagicSanta wrote:
Not indebted, no one held a gun to their head, how long they have the priviledge of serving.
[/quote]
Yeah, I wasn't sure what the proper word is, but you know what I mean. Indebted may not be correct, but really neither is privilege. There is a contractual obligation involved.
Message: Posted by: cfrye (Aug 26, 2010 09:07PM)
"Obligated" is the word I've usually heard used in this circumstance.



Curt
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Aug 26, 2010 09:19PM)
Thar ya go. The military will do them good. They will come out proven leaders that have gotten that intro stage removed and will make more money because of it. Good times.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Sep 10, 2010 09:22AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 11:15, acesover wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 01:06, balducci wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 01:03, acesover wrote:

Does anyone know what this ROTC class entails"
[/quote]
Here. Knock yourself out. :)

https://www.usarmyjrotc.com/
[/quote]


Haviing taken your advice I knocked myself out and went to that site.

Wow! What an eye opener. I had no idea that this was a whole systemm of teaching and not just a class replacing PE. I cannot belieive that the individual that declined to go to these classes was the only one. From what I saw on the site you seem to be removed from regular classes. I assumed (and we all know what that does) that this was a class that replace PE not a whole program. It may be beneficial to some but it should be in no way mandatory. This was my second mistake my first being that I thought I know evereything. My bad. Very bad.
[/quote]

I must applaud this. I have said before that changing your mind, admiting when you were mistaken is a VERY respectable thing.

I would also be concerned with the fact that (according to the parents at least) it was NOT offered as a choice, he was just put in it with everyone, and they had to ASK to have the choice.
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 00:05, acesover wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-08-25 20:24, landmark wrote:
From the article:

"One freshman's parent, Charles Holloway, says ROTC just showed up on his son's schedule. Holloway says when his son asked to be excused, he was placed in a class by himself."
[/quote]

He obviously had the choice of taking the ROTC course which fulfilled the PE course but chose not to take so they put him in a PE class by himself. What is the problem here? And to be honest it was probably his parents that do not want him in the ROTC class, not himself as everyone else is fine with it. Seems like the school is going out of their way to appease him and his parents.

Bring back the draft.
[/quote]

That's not to say he did not have the choice, as they certainly appeased them after the fact, but they did not offer them the choice and made the initial decision for them. Think about all the parents who don't ask. And the children who probably don't even know they CAN ask.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Sep 10, 2010 09:27AM)
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 16:10, MagicSanta wrote:
I read the articles and I am still leaning toward this being much ado about nothing and the situation is being exagerated. I believe the truth is they have a physical education class which is based upon the JROTC program. The implication is the entire ciriculum was changed and that the 9th graders will be running around in uniforms etc.. You know what? I do not see what a leadership and responsibility class an do to harm them and it likely will increase graduation numbers. Do some of you believe the children will enter the 10th grade with bandana's on their heads wrapped in 60 cal rounds, their muscles bulging, as they wait to go shoot up a small Oregon town? Ever thought that maybe that one kid is the only one with a parent who didn't quite get it and complained? No, we are suppose to believe he is enlightened and all other parents are idiots.
[/quote]

It's all about choice.
Message: Posted by: Cyberqat (Sep 10, 2010 12:16PM)
Just as aside, when my Stepdad, the founder of the University of Wisconsin Socialist Club and a major organizer of civil rights protests, was at the University of Wisconsin he had two choices: ROTC or Band.

He says he chose ROTC because the officer teaching it was less of a fascist then the band director. Given the band directors I've known... I believe that...