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Topic: The right of disclaimers and patter
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Sep 10, 2010 01:43PM)
I posted a question below as to why we need to reduce the mystery from our performances with disclaimers. In that post someone had commented a disclaimer that is commonly used by many (both professional and amateur). The knowledgeable Dick Cristian made the comment of the appropriation of the line with out asking the originator who used it for permission.

So I pose this question to you all here.

Is there a time when patter or disclaimers become open for all to just take and use as they want? or should we ask for permission or purchase the rights to use such lines?

What are everyone's thought?

-isi
Message: Posted by: Aaron E (Sep 10, 2010 02:37PM)
Not sure about that one.

I don't use a disclaimer.

They can make out of it what they want.
Message: Posted by: David Alexander (Sep 10, 2010 02:45PM)
Purchase rights?

Are you suggesting that those of us who might want to use a disclaimer are so slow as to be incapable of writing two or three sentences that express our thoughts? (That is an original sentence, by the way.) ;-)
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Sep 10, 2010 03:04PM)
David,

I am not advocating that people pay to use the lines originated by others, but they could at least ask for permission to use such lines.

The situation I guess is like "Kleenex" which became a euphemism for sanitary napkin. Now it is used as common as tissue. Where the value of the brand is lost.

It is just that there are many who prefer to use the creative "two or three sentences that express their thoughts"* of others instead of creating their own that everyone appears to use it and has become like "Kleenex".

And I was hoping to read others thoughts on this topic

*Credits David Alexander for originating :)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 10, 2010 03:07PM)
I think Walter's question needs to be clarified. He is referring to the fact that many mentalists use the line "I use the five senses to create the illusion of a sixth." The line was originated by Rutledge and he gave permission to some other performers to use it. The problem was that many simply heard Rutledge use it (or saw his promotional materials) and went ahead and appropriated it without asking.

The question about this line is now largely moot since Rutledge is dead and the line has become so common that many who use it have no idea where it came from.

The real question Walter seems to be asking is about the ethics of appropriating original lines and scripts from other performers without first asking for permission.

Those of you who are familiar with my writings already know my position on this. It has to do with the difference between an artist and a hack.

Good thoughts,

Bob Cassidy
Message: Posted by: ThePhilosopher (Sep 10, 2010 03:29PM)
There is very little that is ever new in mentalism--including lines and presentation ideas. Even if you come up with it yourself, surely someone else has thought of it before. After all, mentalists are some of the most creative and ingenious people on the planet (and very humble too).

It can be dangerous to consider ones self an "artist," but I think that real performers are artists and the work we do can be extremely artistic. Even if we were to leave ethics aside I could not be a true artist if I copied the lines of someone else. Very often I borrow good ideas from others (isn't that what this forum is all about), but I could never take them as they come. You can't buy mentalism in a can. There is nothing wrong with the 6th sense idea. However, you have to make it really yours--and that takes a lot of thought and work.
Message: Posted by: lostpoet (Sep 10, 2010 04:29PM)
I love philosophy but Id never call myself a philosopher giving that kind of outlook.

"There is very little that is ever new in mentalism--including lines and presentation ideas."
WTF? Presentational ideas are what keep it moving forward.
Message: Posted by: MichaelCGM (Sep 10, 2010 04:45PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-10 14:43, isid0re wrote:
Is there a time when patter or disclaimers become open for all to just take and use as they want? or should we ask for permission or purchase the rights to use such lines?[/quote]
Before answering (oops, I already did), are you talking about an occasional one-liner or are you asking about even adopting chunks of patter from time to time?
Message: Posted by: David Alexander (Sep 10, 2010 04:57PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-10 16:04, isid0re wrote:
David,

I am not advocating that people pay to use the lines originated by others, but they could at least ask for permission to use such lines.

The situation I guess is like "Kleenex" which became a euphemism for sanitary napkin. Now it is used as common as tissue. Where the value of the brand is lost.

It is just that there are many who prefer to use the creative "two or three sentences that express their thoughts"* of others instead of creating their own that everyone appears to use it and has become like "Kleenex".

And I was hoping to read others thoughts on this topic

*Credits David Alexander for originating :)
[/quote]

Walter, crediting is one thing, which you did and I thank you for that, but you didn't ask permission or get a price from me to use my absolutely, positively, 110% original line. Expect to hear from my team of junk yard lawyers in the morning. ;-)
Message: Posted by: ThePhilosopher (Sep 10, 2010 11:29PM)
[quote]
On 2010-09-10 17:29, lostpoet wrote:
I love philosophy but Id never call myself a philosopher giving that kind of outlook.

"There is very little that is ever new in mentalism--including lines and presentation ideas."
Presentational ideas are what keep it moving forward.
[/quote]

lostpoet, I am not saying that presentation isn't important (it is the most important). I imagine you have some knowledge of the history of mentalism. Every once in a while there are some start performers who are very innovative and see things from a totally different perspective, but that is rare.

I agree that the presentation is what really drives mentalism (you might not have seen my other posts, but that is practically all I have written about), but if someone thinks they have a 100% unique presentation idea, I imagine they have not read very much.

I am not saying we should be satisfied copying others instead of being creative. All I was trying to say is that there is nothing wrong with borrowing ideas from others as long as you make those ideas yours. Of course that means not taking the words exactly as they use them.