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Topic: Accidental Hypnosis
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 12, 2010 02:22PM)
For goodness' sake, if you are going to play around with techniques and mimic an induction for the purpose of a trick, just be aware that some people might go under without you intending it to happen.
PLEASE Make sure you know how to manage it once it happens.
I wonder how many times he'd done this before meeting a somnambulist on live TV?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFDU6EcGsgY#t=2m10s
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 12, 2010 02:50PM)
I thought he did that ethically. He did a proper undoing of the suggestion even though I personally feel that if you were to tell somebody "If I don't undo this, it may get a bit weird in the future" (or something along those lines, I'm just paraphrasing) could potentially freak a person out regardless of if you had them under or not.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 12, 2010 02:57PM)
But you do know the suggestion/hypnosis was unnecessary for this effect?
In my eyes, it was an accident and one which exposed the mentalist's inexperience with hypnosis when faced with a "good subject."
Note, the presenter didn't nod the first time. A sign that the mentalist wasn't in control of the situation, probably due to the fact no parameters had been set up beforehand and again indicating an accidental induction.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 12, 2010 03:33PM)
Yup, I do understand that the effect had a sure fire method. I do tend to mix techniques from hypnosis in with actual no fail effects though. This is in order to give the effect some dramatic flair and more often then not, it's so that I can more easily get a person under more easily without having to go through suggestability tests and what not to judge my specs.

I would definitely agree with you that the performer in the video was hesitant and definitely NOT in control of the situation.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 12, 2010 05:08PM)
How can you say he was ethical? From that clip you can't tell anything about his level of skill or knowledge. Other than he wasn't a good hypnotist for sure. It was quite a clumsy "induction". It was obvious it was just mentalism patter. And not that great either.

The thing is many kids buying crap hypnosis products will go out for the first time and try this in school. And its so easy for someone to just tumble and crack their heads. Same with those going out and tying this in a bar after watching a DVD. Or even being on a training.

If you think that was "ethical" from what you saw then its people like you buying this crap that worries me.

Magicians should stick to magic. Hypnosis is NOT a trick. And should never be treated as such.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 12, 2010 05:34PM)
MP, stop spamming every single thread on this board. I'm shocked that you haven't been banned yet.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 12, 2010 05:37PM)
First of all you don't really understand the concept of ethical. And now you show your ignorance with the term spamming.

Perhaps you should look it up.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 12, 2010 05:56PM)
No point arguing with a spambot (aka MP).
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 12, 2010 07:52PM)
I feel you're missing the point kissdadookie and I think mindpunisher is actually spot on in this case. I thought he might "get it" even if nobody else did.

The point here is that (I might be wrong but) I don't think the mentalist ever truly intended to hypnotise the presenter, be it to enhance the effect or for whatever reason.

It looks to me like he performed a "fake" induction with absolutely no expectation that it was going to work, BUT he stumbled upon a somnambulist (who might have even been hypnotized in the recent past.)

This took him to a place where he was clearly out of his depth and, not being in control of the situation, it is THAT which can't be described in any way as ethical.
I think he had a lucky escape. Which is why I wondered how many times he had done it before striking this type of situation.

As for "undoing the suggestion?" Once again, It looked to me like he was just "doing" the rest of his patter, still uncertain about what had just happened.

The message I wanted to convey is that there are some people out there who the inexperienced hypnotist simply shouldn't be playing around with in this manner, for fear of putting themselves in a vulnerable and dangerous position which has the potential to affect those who do know what they are doing.
Because they aren't always that easy to spot (unless again, you know what you're doing) then it's safer to steer clear of using techniques, even lightheartedly and amateurishly, of which you have no deeper understanding.

It reminded me of a time a couple of years ago when I caught my daughter (6 at the time) mimicking an induction of mine on one of her school friends. I had to explain firmly to her why that was unwise and even she understands that now. I was angry at myself for not predicting that might happen.

On the other hand, we can't stop people seeing a stage show or a video and copying what they see, but we do have a responsibility as performers to balance that by reminding people of the dangers from time to time.
The problem is, there are too many non-performers and non-practitioners out there, all too willing to share words of "advice" with the uninitiated.

The blind leading the partially sighted.
Message: Posted by: Nongard1 (Oct 12, 2010 08:16PM)
I don't get the issue? So they guy went into trance quickly and deeply. So what? It enhanced the performance and he handled it well. There is not way to know if he does or does not know anything about hypnosis from this clip. He got the desired effect, promoted his act on TV, nobody waas harmed, nothing strange happened, he removed his silly suggestion and on with the show.
In fact he probly did a lot of good for hypnosis demonstrating it works, is effective and FUN!
Message: Posted by: Phoenix Montgomery (Oct 12, 2010 08:45PM)
Ok, so here's the scoop. I learnt the Zap method from Hon Wong in person, a few years back in Vegas, & around that time I had also been studying most of Richards materials, as well as Anthony Jacquins. I'm meeting with Anthony next year to do some further training as well after studying his books & materials.
Michael Johns knows some of my work too & aside from this I have base level NLP & hypno quals. Not really certain as to why I must offer you my training to justify a clip, but if it satisfies your curiosity, there you go.

What I did on the morning show was difficult because they were, well.. a little hard to control for any routine, so, as in insurance I used that little stunt - Imagine the subject not being as susceptible, & with such a short space allowed I couldn't try anything longer either. Also include in that sequence of your imagination the fact that obtaining the host for a few minutes to run a pre-show induction was out of the question because they have so much to do before a show.

The show's ratings that morning went up, & viewers comments online said "There was a psychic guy doing hypnosis & psychic stuff who says there is not one psychic power being used that leaves the channel 4 search for a psychic contestants for dead.." & I have been invited back again.

In the end, the only people with an issue are the ones that will always have an issue with anything. Those people should go on & do a great job & promote the art further.

All the best to you all & if it upsets you then apologies, if it makes you want to get out there & demonstrate your talents, then awesome.
Message: Posted by: Nongard1 (Oct 12, 2010 09:13PM)
Gloves are off! (My money is on Pheonix)
Message: Posted by: Anansi (Oct 12, 2010 09:48PM)
I liked it.
I know it wasn't the ethical stuff some folk here do like getting blokes scrubbing each other in a bath tub or shagging an inflatable sheep ;) , but Phoenix kept his composure and the spec's were really into it. I think right then, If he'd told them that he'd been gifted his powers after being bitten by a Chupacabra whilst holidaying in South America, they would have gone for it!

Now you know you have a somnambulist and have been invited back, what an opportunity to have them experience some more varied and interesting phenomena.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 12, 2010 10:26PM)
As a hypnotist who also mixes mentalism and hypnosis in live performances, I didn't like it.

So shoot me. For what? Speaking my mind.

I stand by my original comments. He LOOKED like it was unexpected and (in my opinion) could have managed the hypnosis better, to say the least.

Welcome Phoenix.
I prefer to judge by the results of training rather than hearing about the training or trainers, but thanks for chipping in.

I have no idea what the Channel 4 Search for a Psychic comment was all about, I am resident in New Zealand, saw your appearance live and know of no such show here. Maybe they were going on about a show in another country.
The ratings went up? Maybe the All Blacks were on that morning... ;)

Anyway, let's catch up next time you're over here. I have lots more stories about the NZ media which you're bound to enjoy.

Richard, when you go around baiting people with "gloves off" comments like that, it's no wonder so many discussions descend into slanging matches.
I have no intention of fighting with anyone.
Message: Posted by: Phoenix Montgomery (Oct 12, 2010 10:34PM)
Quicknotist:

Sounds good, where are you based? I am over there quite often. It would be good to have you at a show so I may obtain some further info on what you don't like. As nice as compliments are, I don't learn as much as I would when I hear what people don't like.

I only posted that part about my training as it appeared as though there was doubt that I had done any hypnosis at all in earlier comments.

Send me a PM with your email (this goes for anyone else too) & I will be in touch. Love to stay & chat semantics, but I have to pack as I have 7 nights of shows, & several flights in between each to get there :)

All the best!
Message: Posted by: Phoenix Montgomery (Oct 12, 2010 10:36PM)
Anansi:

Thank you! :)

All of you: Love your comments on the "Do hypnotists get hotter girlfriends than magicians". Cracked me up.
Message: Posted by: Phoenix Montgomery (Oct 12, 2010 10:49PM)
http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-93146-p-7.html
Look for date, 15th April, 2010, this is the thread I mentioned. I misquoted, but you get the idea. :) No all blacks mentioned :P
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 12, 2010 11:15PM)
Oh. They're comparing you (favourably) to Sensing Murder, a Psychic Investigator show.
I'm in Christchurch on the South Island. Earthquake zone. Just had a magnitude 5.0 aftershock in the last 35 minutes.
Good luck with your shows.
Cheers,
I'll DM you contact details.
Reg


[quote]
On 2010-10-12 23:49, PhoenixMagic wrote:
http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-93146-p-7.html
Look for date, 15th April, 2010, this is the thread I mentioned. I misquoted, but you get the idea. :) No all blacks mentioned :P
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Nongard1 (Oct 12, 2010 11:19PM)
Reg,

The gloves off comment, since MP had already posted here was a callback to the now closed 9 page thread on safety, that decended into Goodwins Law. Much like the inflatable sheep and bathtub line of anansi.... sorry for my ambiguity. It comes second nature. :)

And hope you are recovering form those quakes! Were able to salvage much from your house?
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 12, 2010 11:41PM)
It looks like Phoenix and I will be friends. He's a real pro for taking my criticism on the chin.

Thanks for your concerns about the Earthquake Richard.
We are fine. Our house has many cracks and gaps and we had a few belongings damaged, but as it's still habitable, it's fairly low down on the Earthquake Commission inspect/repair list.
The surprising thing is all the aftershocks we're still getting 5 weeks on.
Over 1700 and counting!
(And only two local shows cancelled in all that time!)

I live near the second "c" in Christchurch on this map: http://www.christchurchquakemap.co.nz/

Play it fast for a cool visualization!

Reg
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 13, 2010 05:19AM)
Richard Im surprised you don't get it. You seem reasonably intelligent. I don't recall anybody beingcalled a nazi although I was called a terrorist.

However if you had actually read the posts Richard then there were quite a few examples of people that had been harmed because of hypnotists. And three cases of of successful lawsuits. I was also once on TV with the medical and Dental Hypnosis association and a member of the British Medical Association representing stage hypnotists many years ago. They rattled off numerous cases they had seen where there were physical injuries and psychological problems. Now If you want to argue with the British Medical Association then that's up to you.

But lets look at this example. To be honest we don't know enough about the clip and what was rehearsed or pre arranged. However any shows that I have done have complied with ALL of the safety and legal requirements and are also insured.

People KNOW what they are coming to see and they VOLUNTEER. In fact usually I am swamped by volunteers all WANTING to be hypnotised despite seeing what others have just done before as I often ask for more volunteers for the second half of the show.

Many of these new wave amatuer dabblers will walk up to unsuspecting strangers with no knowledge of their mental state no pre-talk in uncontrolled public places with no considerations for safety and attempt a rapid induction. With almost zero training.THAT IS NOT ONLY UNETHICAL ITS ALSO DANGEROUS AND IN MY BOOKS IS ASSUALT.

Kids are doing it in school asfter buying these tacky products. I'm really surprised you just don't get Richard. In fact I'm surprised anyone that has enough intelligence to tie their shoe laces doesn't get it.


But to go back to the original point. I have to agree to play around with "fake" inductions with no knowledge of hypnosis is waiting for an accident to happen.

Richard if no one was ever injured or if hypnosis has no danger why do you subscribe to safety training and insurance?

And why are you now saying there is no danger? It doesn't have something to do with selling products does it? Because apart from that it makes no sense to me. Why bother with safety training or insurance?

Like many stage hypnotists say you can't make somebody do something they really don't want to do is basically rubbish in order to get volunteers. We both know some people will do almost anything you ask them too.

And by the way there were a few people I know of that bought tickets and came to all three of my shows. One of them was a VOLUNTEER. Not everybody wants to see someone pretend they are being tickled or blowing bubbles as a main part of their show. My audiences would ask for their money back.

Some people want to see something actually funny. If you watch any of the clips just listen to the audience. What specifically is unethical?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 13, 2010 05:59AM)
If anybody is Unethical it is those that punt tacky cheap products whilst claiming there is no danger whastsoever. With no warnings to those that buy them. Its not only unethical its criminal.
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Oct 13, 2010 07:25AM)
Mind Punisher,

Can I ask a simple question.. Who are you?
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Oct 13, 2010 07:47AM)
Hi Pheonix

Nice video.

I think you did miss an opportunity maybe to get more out of the thing. I am not sure you caught the moment he went in and could have dropped half the 'induction' and perhaps stuck him to the girl or something.

Other than that I don't see how or why ethics were involved but do see Reg's point of view. Take the thing away from the fact you know people like Anthony whom when I taught him stage hypnosis in 2004 and could see was really destined for great things - and others from the meca of hypnosis training for some reason - Vegas - take it away and there is an obvious problem...

Let me tell you a story.

About 15 years ago I was invited along to a mentalist evening by a friend who we'll call Fred to save embarrassment. As part of his show Fred invited a father and daughter up on stage to perform what I believe is called the 'Shoulder tap' routine... please forgive me if you know what I am on about and have superior magical knowledge. Basically you blindfold the girl in this case. Do a lot of confusing waffle about ""Feeling the air flowing around their body, the warmth and feel of their clothes and then tell them to 'tune in' to the other person on stage while you 'position' them etc. Then you go over to the other person after establishing the 'connection' and touch the bloke or whoever on the shoulder. The reveal is of course to n blindfold the girl and ask her what she felt which of course was the 'Tap on the Shoulder.' It's a fabulous way of filling ten minutes.

On that night however he took the blindfold off the girl and it was a minute [long time on stage] before he could get her to speak to him. And then when he did she seemed disoriented and so he joked about being "Too connected" and got them both off stage.

After the show I wondered over to her table and did a quick wake up with her before going back stage to chat with Fred. I asked him what he thought of the girl and he shrugged, "Oh I've had three or four go weird on me like that" he said. He had no idea how easy it is to hypnotise but more worryingly he had no idea that he was doing that.

Now Reg will tell you no doubt that the first time he hypnotised someone it was likewise by accident and I think his concern is that what would happen if someone had a bad experience, especially on live TV, as I could happen.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 13, 2010 09:13AM)
Just FYI Jon, the routine you mentioned (Shoulder tap) is Banachek's PK Touches routine. Excellent routine that can go in so many directions, quite brilliant ;)
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Oct 13, 2010 01:36PM)
Thank you Kiss, please excuse my ignorance. :)
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 13, 2010 01:46PM)
Haha! Ouch. You got me there Jon...
My first STAGE induction was indeed a very similar accident and a wasted opportunity.
(I'm not Fred, but I do know who Jon is talking about.)
Mine happened during a performance of Lee Earle's Bar Code gag (with kicker) of all things.
I was already a hypnotherapist at the time and had hypnotized many people but STILL didn't realise how easily so-called instant inductions can sometimes happen.

Ok. I'm sufficiently embarrassed now. Can we delete this thread?






[quote]
Now Reg will tell you no doubt that the first time he hypnotised someone it was likewise by accident and I think his concern is that what would happen if someone had a bad experience, especially on live TV, as I could happen.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Oct 13, 2010 02:07PM)
LOL Reg - you started it!
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 13, 2010 02:16PM)
Wht be embarresed Reg? It just illustrates your point. It makes you more credible and the point you make more valid. It also tells us why you felt it was worth starting this thread.

I'm glad you did.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 13, 2010 02:40PM)
Yeah. The embarrassment was a fleeting thing. Passed in just a few seconds.
Reg

[quote]
On 2010-10-13 15:16, mindpunisher wrote:
Wht be embarresed Reg? It just illustrates your point. It makes you more credible and the point you make more valid. It also tells us why you felt it was worth starting this thread.

I'm glad you did.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 13, 2010 06:31PM)
I know I have had more than my share of dodgy moments especially at the begining of my career. It was more luck than anything I never had an accident. Times where people standing in a row were going into trance much quicker than I anticipated and almost fell over in areas where there were tables and chairs.

Hypnosis in an entertainment context has so many variables even with loads of experience its still possible things can go wrong.

I also once on a hypnotherapy training cringed at the trainer who was demonstrating a rapid induction. I knew from the way his body was positioned that if this guy went fast he could fall and hurt himself. Since there was no way he could support him.

The guy went out instantly and just as I thought the trainer had no control over him falling. He was caught by another person who was standing next to him. It wasn't planned that he would be caught by the other person he just happened to be positioned there.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (Oct 14, 2010 02:32AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-12 15:57, quicknotist wrote:
But you do know the suggestion/hypnosis was unnecessary for this effect?
In my eyes, it was an accident and one which exposed the mentalist's inexperience with hypnosis when faced with a "good subject."
Note, the presenter didn't nod the first time. A sign that the mentalist wasn't in control of the situation, probably due to the fact no parameters had been set up beforehand and again indicating an accidental induction.
[/quote]

Can someone explain why the fact that the presenter didnīt nod the first time, is an indicator of the mentalist not being in control of the situation?

- I thought that if the presenter were hypnotised by this stage, then surely he WOULD have nodded? and thus the fact that the presenter didnīt nod indicated that was wasnīt actually hypnotised when requested to nod?

Thanx in advance.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 14, 2010 03:51AM)
Hi Owen,
You're a hypnotist right? You really think he hadn't "gone?"

I feel I've commented enough on the video I posted but I would like to continue speaking about this in general terms.

Hypnotized subjects not following direction/suggestion can happen for all kinds of reasons.
In my opinion, often not following suggestion is not necessarily an indication a subject isn't hypnotized, just that it isn't managed properly.

It can happen when the performer hasn't set up the parameters of the relationship well enough beforehand or has let the relationship slip.
You need to constantly manage that relationship and make sure they continue to do what you suggest. Yes, even a simple nod.
You can see how it could be problematic if you let it slide and then later say "sleep and stand" and they fall over, or "stay in your chair" and they don't.
It's what Louchlin would have called a "violation."
Then again, it might be a case of you not being specific and clear enough in your suggestion or an inability to follow through on the part of the subject.
However, failure to do what you suggest at any point during the process should be immediately addressed.

I have also heard about a case where a whole bunch of people failed to "wake up" at the end which caused a minor media frenzy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9zKfuztFX4
A lot of performers casually throw around that old favourite the "all hypnosis is self-hypnosis" line without clearly demonstrating who is really in control.
I can see how trying to wake them up after you've told them they've hypnotized themselves might just be a problem!

But hey, all this is just part my opinion, part safety-paranoia and mostly how I like to teach others.

Your mileage may vary.

Reg

[quote]
On 2010-10-14 03:32, Owen Mc Ginty wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-12 15:57, quicknotist wrote:
But you do know the suggestion/hypnosis was unnecessary for this effect?
In my eyes, it was an accident and one which exposed the mentalist's inexperience with hypnosis when faced with a "good subject."
Note, the presenter didn't nod the first time. A sign that the mentalist wasn't in control of the situation, probably due to the fact no parameters had been set up beforehand and again indicating an accidental induction.
[/quote]

Can someone explain why the fact that the presenter didnīt nod the first time, is an indicator of the mentalist not being in control of the situation?

- I thought that if the presenter were hypnotised by this stage, then surely he WOULD have nodded? and thus the fact that the presenter didnīt nod indicated that was wasnīt actually hypnotised when requested to nod?

Thanx in advance.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2010 04:14AM)
I once had someone not wake up. After the show I discovered she had two hearing aids one in each ear. She responded to nothing. Her boyfriend turned up the sound on them
and her whole body twitched. I sat with her for 45 mins. When she awoke she didn't recognise her boyfriend and thought she was on a shopping trip with her parents. It took another 15 mins or so to bring her fully back. To make matters worse the venue was being used for the opening night of Rob Roy and all the starts were coming. And all the workmen were working around me to prepare the stage for the next nights event.

Imagine a clip like the one Reg just put up on tv in the UK? Worst still imagine it was a young untrained impromtu hypnotist that had accosted a victim in a public place? No insurance no permission no training? Worst still if they fell and hurt themselves really bad or were sufferring from a mental problem?

Anyone that understands the media in this country and with an ounce of common sense would tell you of the damaging impact it would make. Then they would dig into everything and it would be all over the press etc etc. And then you will hear of other reports.

And you think this will never happen?
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Oct 14, 2010 04:50AM)
LOL MP. Insurance doesn't protect anyone from careless incompetence or stupidity, neither does training for that matter. And what we saw wasn't either was it?

At worst is was a missed opportunity.

So tell me, if she couldn't hear you to wake her up - how on earth did she hear you to get her under?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2010 05:10AM)
No but it makes a great media piece Jon you miss the whole point totally. IT PROTECTS THE HYPNOTIST I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DON'T GET THAT.You think the media wouldn't jump all over that? Or the person in question wouldn't use that in a court should they go see a lawyer? Are you really that niave?

Having insurance won't stop you killing someone by crashing into their car. Are you suggesting we should drive cars without insurance? I honestly can't believe the thought processes on here.

Also no insurance will put any venue or bar at risk that knowingly allows these impromtu unlicensed event to happen. Pavillion in Glasgow was sued for around 90k because Haplern didn't have the correct insurance.

I have no idea about the girl. Perhaps her batteries were low? that's the point you don't know and you never can know for sure. Either way it took a LOT of people management to keep everybody calm.


She obviously didn't hear all my warnings about NOT coming up if you they any medical issues. Again how would the media react to someone who had serious medical issues injured in an impromtu "attack"?

Someone with little people skills even less knowledge or skill? It would make good news the journo's would love it.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (Oct 14, 2010 09:01AM)
@ quicknotist - I wouldnīt go so far as to call myself a hypnotist just yet, and Iīm not debating wether or not the presenter was "gone" at the first request for a head nod.

Iīm genuinely interested in what tells you he was "gone" by that stage though (from my own learning perspective). The quality of the image on the video isnīt as clear as being right there to observe, but his eyes do look a bit "spaced out". Is this the "tell tale sign" that you picked up on? Is there more that I am missing?
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Oct 14, 2010 09:08AM)
MP is ranting again. Tsk tsk :P
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2010 10:35AM)
Owen I think Reg might on the cautious side. When youve been doing hypnosis for a while you recognise the non verbals of trance. But I think really the point he is making (correct me if I am wrong Reg) is that some people do go into trance very easy. And some people when they go they go like a ton of bricks. Seriously they go flying if you don't know what your doing or aren't prepared for it.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (Oct 14, 2010 11:03AM)
I see your point, I wasnīt looking for it the first time I watched the video, wasnīt expecting it to happen so easily.
Iīve never seen someone go so fast, guess Iīll have to keep playing the numbers game for a while.
Any tips for when the subject stops responding much appreciated, as so far Iīve had people follow instructions badly, but any non-response has been due to them not being hypnotized (at least I think so).
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2010 11:45AM)
Well em they stop responding!! Or in the case above they didn't respond at all. The guy in the video claimed its first time it happened to him.

I have never heard of ALL the volunteers not responding myself. Who knows what happened?

Part of the fun called hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Oct 14, 2010 12:23PM)
I've never had anyone go 'flying' nor for that matter have I ever had a problem with waking them up. I had one young girl in Keale University who was brought to me after the show because she had gone 'funny' in the audience and it turned out she was drunk.

My thinking behind insurance MP is that it doesn't stop people from driving drunk and killing other people and it won't stop an idiot not managing their stage properly. And trust me, it won't stop the media jumping all over something regardless of whether you is a member of this or that group, club or onion ;-)

As for unqualified and untrained and inexperienced you were all those things once, as was I. People have to start somewhere. I have even seen so called 'safe' professionals leave the stage while half naked people are tumbling and climbing over badly made props. I still think being insured doesn't stop stupidity.

And for the record, there is No recognised qualification, no better teacher than those who have been and done it and only one way to get experience - although in some cases even that doesn't mean improvement in skill nor safety.

And for the record the Hypnotist in the 30 odd years I have been doing this stuff has survived one associated death, two nationally reported court cases, Halpern's was way back in the 90's so lets forget it ey? It was actually Ģ20,000 , however, The Hypnotist has even survived JR and the massive bad publicity he got for it in the 90's. Some twonk zapping someone in the street and twisting a wrist wouldn't even get on here, let alone the press. In My Opinion that is.
Message: Posted by: Zerububle (Oct 14, 2010 01:06PM)
Hah! Well said Jon. A last, some realistic down to earth response. I, like many others, are sick of the likes of MP and their agendas.
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Oct 14, 2010 01:44PM)
I agree zero, sorely tempted to attend Jon's training after that post, he da daddy!
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 14, 2010 02:59PM)
Yes. That was the point I was trying to make with the original post.
I'm not trying to scaremonger or turn this into another "danger" or "insurance" thread. If you haven't encountered people who go so quickly and easily, you probably just haven't hypnotized enough people.

Owen then asked why I thought the guy had "gone" and if someone isn't responding to a simple suggestion, doesn't that mean they aren't hypnotised?

So I found a video which described many people not responding to the important suggestion "Wake Up!" OK. Maybe it was just teen hysteria, but it made it on to the news and eventually Youtube under the title "Botched Hypnotism"

As for recognising the signs of hypnosis from just a video. Well I saw it in glorious HDTV the first time(!) but yes. I see complete fascination and absorption. As Jon said: A missed opportunity. On some level, it must have reminded me exactly of the opportunity I missed on stage, once upon a time.

One of the reasons I'm so cautious, apart from it being in my nature, is that I work in a very small city in a very small country and I listen to stories from audience members and clients about what they don't like about other hypnotists (my competition.) Whether you like it or not, a blatant disregard for the volunteers often comes into it.

The original post was in no way meant as a direct and negative criticism of the mentalist involved and given we have now exchanged contact details, I think he knows that.

When I said "I don't like it." I didn't like it because:
1. It WAS a missed opportunity
2. Hypnosis isn't necessary for the trick but it did happen.
3. Some will see this as an example of how pretending it IS necessary will enhance many an effect BUT be prepared to meet someone who will go under so easily through just pretending.
4. I'm a fussy, pedantic, hard-to-please audience who loves helping other people, sometimes through criticism.
5. I was just expressing my opinion.

Jon Chase is an excellent trainer and I would recommend his training. He has taught me a LOT. I'm sure he also taught Ant a LOT. He does take safety VERY seriously and has many stories (some he has posted elsewhere) of what can happen in the crazy world of stage hypnosis. He has said that part of his approach to training is that you can learn from his stuff-ups. And despite one chapter of "Deeper and Deeper" being dedicated to Impromptu Hypnosis, he doesn't like street hypnosis.

[quote]
On 2010-10-14 11:35, mindpunisher wrote:
Owen I think Reg might on the cautious side. When youve been doing hypnosis for a while you recognise the non verbals of trance. But I think really the point he is making (correct me if I am wrong Reg) is that some people do go into trance very easy. And some people when they go they go like a ton of bricks. Seriously they go flying if you don't know what your doing or aren't prepared for it.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2010 05:50PM)
Yes Reg but I haven't posted anything to scaremonger anybody. my posts are a reaction to the unbalanced view that there are no dangers no laws to worry about and no limits to who these products are sold to. And to the fantasy that no one has ever or will be injured or sied due to a careless or ill trained hypnotist. Or that those that buy these products are not any way putting themselves in any form of risk whatsoever. Of course to do so might slow the marketing of those products.

Its about time somebody put some balance on here... Not because I have any products to sell I have no financial gain. Which I believe is part of the motivation to deny all risks.

And because I have lived and worked through the trainwreck of the last generation of hypnotists. And Firmly believe it could and most likely will happen again.

And whether you intended it or not your thread on here has contributed to my posts. Great example of what can go wrong even with an experienced hypnotist. Imagine some poor kid coming up against that with no training just a few views of a cd. Imagine it happening in a public place in centre of town and making the news?

Are you telling that can never happen? Some people on here seem to be completely blind and when real proof and evidence is put in front of them they still can't see it.

Until one day it will be too late. And we will all suffer. The more of these posts and threads that go up the better if you ask me.

Funny that whenever anyone asks for proof and some goes up they then call it scare mongering? Like they are trying to play down what is obviously real. sonds more like self interest than common sense or objectivity if you ask me.
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Oct 14, 2010 06:07PM)
Come on, the world could end tomorrow, anything COULD happen, it does NOT mean it will...
cant we all just calm down a bit a be adults, FFS chill out, your supposed to be professional ENTERTAINERS not the bleeding nanny state enforcers.

nothing happened in the vid clip, get over it, my job is getting more interesting than these posts.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 14, 2010 06:11PM)
Nothing happened? it made the national news and nothing happened? Are you right in the head? Perhaps its not interesting to you as a hobby but to me its work it was my full time job for a long time. And after the stage I used hypnosis in many other contexts including corporate trainings. I still do. It IS my job. It s my livliehood. Not a hobby.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 14, 2010 06:41PM)
I'm not accusing you of scaremongering MP. Far from it.
I understand your concerns and fail to see why many of your posts attract so much ire from others on here.
I was just answering those who might think *I* have an "agenda" with the original post.
Any links to your recent posts WERE unintentional, however I do see how it only takes a small lateral step from a discussion about missed opportunities, poor management, accidental inductions and not recognizing signs of hypnosis to discussions about more serious problems.


[quote]
On 2010-10-14 18:50, mindpunisher wrote:
Yes Reg but I haven't posted anything to scaremonger anybody. my posts are a reaction to the unbalanced view that there are no dangers no laws to worry about and no limits to who these products are sold to. And to the fantasy that no one has ever or will be injured or sied due to a careless or ill trained hypnotist. Or that those that buy these products are not any way putting themselves in any form of risk whatsoever. Of course to do so might slow the marketing of those products.

Its about time somebody put some balance on here... Not because I have any products to sell I have no financial gain. Which I believe is part of the motivation to deny all risks.

And because I have lived and worked through the trainwreck of the last generation of hypnotists. And Firmly believe it could and most likely will happen again.

And whether you intended it or not your thread on here has contributed to my posts. Great example of what can go wrong even with an experienced hypnotist. Imagine some poor kid coming up against that with no training just a few views of a cd. Imagine it happening in a public place in centre of town and making the news?

Are you telling that can never happen? Some people on here seem to be completely blind and when real proof and evidence is put in front of them they still can't see it.

Until one day it will be too late. And we will all suffer. The more of these posts and threads that go up the better if you ask me.

Funny that whenever anyone asks for proof and some goes up they then call it scare mongering? Like they are trying to play down what is obviously real. sonds more like self interest than common sense or objectivity if you ask me.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Oct 14, 2010 07:02PM)
Sorry we're more boring than your job Catweazle! LOL (BTW I loved that TV series as a kid.)

The thing is, this IS my job and as much as I'd like to think it's all about fun and giggles, a big part of that job is a sometimes tiring and boring responsibility to those I hypnotize, those I teach, those I entertain and those who book me to entertain and inform.

Of course, if you were sat in one of my audiences, I'd like to think you'd enjoy it and crack up laughing just like everyone else.

That's the way it should be, an audience shouldn't have to know about all the boring bits of the job, but it's not usually the audience who read these threads.

As I always say: If you as an audience can see the hard work an entertainer puts into his show, then he's not working hard enough.
When we watch a movie, we don't want to see actors working hard, we want to believe they are the character they're portraying.

But you don't have to take it just from me. Derren Brown once said "Never compromise on the unseen" or something similar and many of these boring discussions are about keeping the unseen unseen.

That's what makes us professional ENTERTAINERS and not just audience members mimicking the superficial.


[quote]
On 2010-10-14 19:07, catweazle wrote:
Come on, the world could end tomorrow, anything COULD happen, it does NOT mean it will...
cant we all just calm down a bit a be adults, FFS chill out, your supposed to be professional ENTERTAINERS not the bleeding nanny state enforcers.

nothing happened in the vid clip, get over it, my job is getting more interesting than these posts.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Oct 15, 2010 01:54PM)
Fair points, and I do understand your concerns, now have a great weekend entertaining folk and making money!
:)
Message: Posted by: Phoenix Montgomery (Oct 19, 2010 11:56PM)
Wow, if that clip made you talk.. just wait til you see the full show! ;) hahahaha

Reg: "As I always say: If you as an audience can see the hard work an entertainer puts into his show, then he's not working hard enough." - Amen

Who of you have some clips for view?