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Topic: Trick With Lighters For Kids?
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Nov 30, 2010 11:10PM)
So, do ya folks think a routine using lighters should be performed in front of kids five years and up? I have a few routines I've been working on using lighters, there are lots of gags, comedy byplay and sucker like effects going on. I live in North Adamerica and am not sure if this would be cool or not so I'm scouting out for opinions and whatnots.

:)
Message: Posted by: Sock Puppet Monkey (Nov 30, 2010 11:26PM)
Straw and Matches by Jon Sciezcka

It was the end of summer vacation. Straw had done everything he could think of. He was bored. So he went over to play with someone he had been warned to stay away from. “Let’s plays checkers,” said Straw. “Okay I’m the red ones I get to move first I get two moves and you get one, “ said Matches. “Forget it, “ said Straw. “Let’s play Ping Pong instead.” “Okay I get the good paddle you stand on that side I get to serve first and you have to close one eye,” said Matches. “Never mind,” said Straw. “Maybe we should just watch TV.” “Okay you sit over there on the floor and I’ll sit on the couch and I get the remote and we have to watch my favourite video,” said Matches. “I think I hear my mother calling…I better go,” said Straw.

The moral of the story…don’t play with Matches (or in this case lighters)

Monkey see, monkey do...so I'd say set a good example by not setting a bad example.

SPM
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Nov 30, 2010 11:40PM)
In case you're advocating for the none use of lighters in a kids show... I'm over 18 years of age and aren't the little ones taught the same so therefore just like their adult parents I too can use lighters if I so wish being a grown up and all, we use 'em for lighting dove pans, flash paper and vanishing candles correct? I mean shouldn't there be a logical way to handle the situation without being frightened about future repercussions if a child were to hurt oneself with fire after they saw you perform? How far does being held accountable go if some kid burns down the house and kills grandma in the proccess six months after seeing your show?

I'm being serious here folks....
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 30, 2010 11:59PM)
That is kind of a no-brainer, really. Before you go any further with this, let me ask some obvious questions.

1) Are you charging a fee?

2) Do you have liability insurance?

If you are charging a fee, and you don't have liability insurance, you are not very smart. You can be sued for everything you own. It doesn't even matter if you did anything.

If you do have liability insurance, read your policy. Many insurance policies do not permit the use of fire during a show.

Maybe you don't realize this, but the use of fire IN ANY FORM in front of children is major stupid.

Don't use flash paper, flash string, lighters, matches or any other combustibles in front of children. Even the "don't try this yourself" disclaimer won't protect you if some kid in your audience sets himself on fire and his mother tells the doctor, "Well, this magician...."

So, two things:

1) we DON'T all use fire
2) I'm serious here.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 12:17AM)
Okay, I am talking five years and up here, mixed ages and when most of us perform whether it is a show mostly geared towards five years old there is always other older kids and adults if not usually a totally mixed crowd in most events, so lets be serious now...

None of you have lit a dove pan on fire in front of kids using a Lighter?

Or maybe a vanishing candle?

Flash paper or perhaps Torch to Rose?

Most fire codes seem pretty lax when it comes to a magician lighting a candle and a moment or two later it is gone, even fire wallets man some of you sayin you only use it outside 50 feet away from all buildings and people when you perform? conformists!

I have a 6 yr old gradaughter, she thinks I'm cool because I can stick apencil thru my cheek, a pen thru my tongue and a pen thru my arm and can pull dental floss thru my neck. She thinks it's horrible and gross but doesn't hesitate to brag about me to all her friends and insist on me showing them the really gross stuff...and thy wanna see it.

And yes...I do get paid...whats liability insurance hahahahaha, sue me for everything I own, I dare anybody! Hahahahaha...they're gonna get nothing but useless magic tricks without instructions from me. As for my van, well I don't think I could give it away lol!
Message: Posted by: Payne (Dec 1, 2010 01:06AM)
So you really aren't in here looking for advice.
You simply want validation

[img]http://www.masterpaynemagic.com/props/validation2.jpg[/img]

Go ahead and play with fire in front of children. But first you really should volunteer to perform at a children's hospital in the burn clinic.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Dec 1, 2010 04:05AM)
Christopher, I really hope you're not serious. Do your "lighter routines" invlove actually lighting them? If so, then really, forget it. Apart from anything else, I can't imagine many 5-year olds being interested in tricks with lighters. And it's plain dumb to present something using potentially very dangerous articles, which kids under the age of at least 10 should NEVER get anywhere near. I imagine those young kids who DO find the lighter tricks interesting, will thereafter take an active interest in lighters, which they would previously have had NO reason to ever think about.
It's about as stupid an idea as I've ever heard for a kidshow. What on Earth are you thinking?
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 1, 2010 05:41AM)
Check out my review of 'Close-Up magic for Children' by Practical Magic on the review thread. I basically slated the DVD for their use of using a lighter in front of the children on numerous effects.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=384396&forum=111&7

What was worse was the fact that he was lighting the back of a business card (because of friction pen ink), which in turn would make children think, wow - I didn't know ink could do that, lets try it!

Stupid, ridiculous and should never have been put on DVD.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 08:50AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 05:05, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Christopher, I really hope you're not serious. Do your "lighter routines" invlove actually lighting them? If so, then really, forget it. Apart from anything else, I can't imagine many 5-year olds being interested in tricks with lighters. And it's plain dumb to present something using potentially very dangerous articles, which kids under the age of at least 10 should NEVER get anywhere near. I imagine those young kids who DO find the lighter tricks interesting, will thereafter take an active interest in lighters, which they would previously have had NO reason to ever think about.
It's about as stupid an idea as I've ever heard for a kidshow. What on Earth are you thinking?
Potty :)
[/quote]

Potty, do you really think kids have never seen a lighter before, Dad lighting a barbeque, or the fireplace in the winter and maybe Mom lighting up a cigarette. Duh, guys... kids see lighters all the time and NO I am not considering actually lightin the lighters but why do you all think there are safety percautions on the lighters themselves, so kiddies can't light them.

This really happened to me and I do not feel resposible at all for the child in question knew better and was taught to never play with fire but chose to not listen to his parents...here's the story, I have a kid, age about 7 years old when it happened who decided to go into my magic room, unlock my trunk and play with a zippo lighter I had that produced a floating flame he proceeded to fill the lighter with fluid the wrong way and when he lit the lighter his whole arm and chest went up in flames...my kid mind you. We had a vsiting nurse come and attend to his injuries for about a month. Was it my fault, nope, he disobeyed and learned a lesson...he never played with fire again. Did I get rid of the lighter, no, are there still lighters in my house, yes. My son Learned His Lesson The Hard Way Folks and some kids just learn no other way.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 08:52AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 02:06, Payne wrote:
So you really aren't in here looking for advice.
You simply want validation

[img]http://www.masterpaynemagic.com/props/validation2.jpg[/img]

Go ahead and play with fire in front of children. But first you really should volunteer to perform at a children's hospital in the burn clinic.
[/quote]

Cool picture but no, I am looking for opinions and boy am I getting 'em huh? As for burn victims, even I have done a fundraier for a kid whose house caught on fire and burned down, nearly killed him andit was his parents playing with lighters for they are well known crack heads and accidently burnt their own house down while smoking the rock.
Message: Posted by: Ryan Price (Dec 1, 2010 09:45AM)
I must chime in here. There are a couple children's performers that use fire in my area. One is worse than the other and actually runs his hand through it saying "its magic cold fire".

One child after seeing one of them light flash string and producing a rope from it tried to do the same with wool. Luckily the mom saw this and nothing serious happened. You can see the potential problem with this.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Dec 1, 2010 10:51AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 09:50, Christopher Rinaldi wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 05:05, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Christopher, I really hope you're not serious. Do your "lighter routines" invlove actually lighting them? If so, then really, forget it. Apart from anything else, I can't imagine many 5-year olds being interested in tricks with lighters. And it's plain dumb to present something using potentially very dangerous articles, which kids under the age of at least 10 should NEVER get anywhere near. I imagine those young kids who DO find the lighter tricks interesting, will thereafter take an active interest in lighters, which they would previously have had NO reason to ever think about.
It's about as stupid an idea as I've ever heard for a kidshow. What on Earth are you thinking?
Potty :)
[/quote]

Potty, do you really think kids have never seen a lighter before, Dad lighting a barbeque, or the fireplace in the winter and maybe Mom lighting up a cigarette. Duh, guys... kids see lighters all the time and NO I am not considering actually lightin the lighters but why do you all think there are safety percautions on the lighters themselves, so kiddies can't light them.

This really happened to me and I do not feel resposible at all for the child in question knew better and was taught to never play with fire but chose to not listen to his parents...here's the story, I have a kid, age about 7 years old when it happened who decided to go into my magic room, unlock my trunk and play with a zippo lighter I had that produced a floating flame he proceeded to fill the lighter with fluid the wrong way and when he lit the lighter his whole arm and chest went up in flames...my kid mind you. We had a vsiting nurse come and attend to his injuries for about a month. Was it my fault, nope, he disobeyed and learned a lesson...he never played with fire again. Did I get rid of the lighter, no, are there still lighters in my house, yes. My son Learned His Lesson The Hard Way Folks and some kids just learn no other way.
[/quote]
Your kid got seriously burnt when playing with one of your "magic" lighters....but he's learned his lesson, that's OK then? He may have learned his lesson, but seemingly, you didn't. You don't feel in any way responsible for your own child's actions. Obviously, your kid managed to get around the "security features" (never heard of that with a Zippo but still). How would you feel if he'd burnt down your house, and had no chance to escape? What if those flames had spread?
And you now want to play with lighters in front of 5-year olds?
Methinks this HAS to be some kind of sick joke.
:(
Message: Posted by: Leland (Dec 1, 2010 12:08PM)
What would you say had your kid died. Oh well he learned his lesson the hard way.

I used to do a quick trick that involved using a lighter. It seemed everytime I did it there would be a parent telling the kids not to play with fire before I had a chance to making me look bad. I finally just got rid of it all together. I now take a good look at my show and decide if it's dangerous or if kids might get the wrong idea I don't use it.

I'm glad your kid is all right.
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 1, 2010 01:10PM)
This is not about what you want to do, this is about what the clients want to see.

If you do a trick with a lighter in your show, the kids won't say anything. The parents may say something to you after the show, and occasionally within the show itself. But no parent, what-so-ever would ever book you for their own show. You lose all repeat and referral work and get bad-mouthed around town. If you want repeat work, then playing with fire in front of children is not the thing to do.

I don't care if your actions caused your own child to burn themselves. If that's how you want to teach your children, through near-death experiences, I doubt they will live past puberty. (I'm also surprised you have the ability to type on a keyboard). Your an idiot for not learning from that lesson, and an even bigger idiot if you want other people's children to be hurt as well just to learn the same lesson.

This entire topic is stupid. I'm not beating around the bush with this one. No pleasantries, no being nice about it. Children are being set on fire because of what you are doing so get it into your head...

NO TRICKS WITH FIRE - EVER.
Message: Posted by: Mary Mowder (Dec 1, 2010 01:25PM)
Dear Christopher,

If you are not lighting the lighters, perhaps you could use a similarly shaped object like a roll of life savers.

In the distant past I did use a lighter to light a candle in an act. Times change. If you work for kids, don't use fire.

I think you have a consensus of the opinion other than yours. I know the pain of not being able to do an effect I like because it is inappropriate to the audience but that is part of my job.

- Mary Mowder
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 01:27PM)
Are some of you saying there should be no lighters or matches in any home for fear of little Johnny getting hurt? And yes my son bypassed a lock on my trunk, snooped until he found the lighter in my trunk...I'd say it was his fault, he knew better and did something he was expressly told not to do. Due to HIS actions his punishment was pain and suffering, I did feel bad for him and felt he should not have had to learn his lesson that way but he did, that is life and sometimes it spanks a disobiedant kid hard when they make bad choices for themselves.

Yes, my son is alright he is 20 now and he will never forget his little adventure into my magicroom.

So should I not vanish a bill and make it reappear inside an orange for fear of little Johnny going home and copying that trick as well and cutting his finger off?

There can be so many what-if scenarios should we bury our heads in the sand and hope this fearmongering goes away?

Here's a gasper for some of you, I say that because I can only assume some of you would've caved in....I was setting up at a gig and right before the show and a lady asked me if I could leave out the straitjacket because one member of the audience was a former mental patient who still had issues and he had been restrained while in the mental ward.

I calmly told the lady that the straitjacket was my finale and I was truly sorry for the gentleman but it was staying in the show, she huffed and puffed and walked away in a hizzy.

We live in America and majority rules.

I sense a lot of fear in this forum...

[quote]
On 2010-12-01 14:10, ku7uk3 wrote:

This entire topic is stupid. I'm not beating around the bush with this one. No pleasantries, no being nice about it. Children are being set on fire because of what you are doing so get it into your head...

NO TRICKS WITH FIRE - EVER.
[/quote]
Dude, THAT is the most stupidest thing I've ever read here on the magic Café! I just love this blame shifting society we dwell in now, maybe I should've sued the maker of the magic trick that burned my son and then he could've sued the person that gave him the idea to create the trick and then the other person could sue...

See what I mean, a little fearmongering goes a long way huh.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Dec 1, 2010 01:41PM)
I know a guy who does an entire routine with a bic lighter. All he does is act like he is removing the flame then tossing it back on. It works and proof that non magic magic works. I do a non magic are levitation. Just wiggle your fingers over your other arm which is lying on a table then make magical movements and the arm rises. For those that don't get it it looks cool, for those that do it is funny.
Message: Posted by: jimhlou (Dec 1, 2010 01:44PM)
No fear here Christopher, don't use fire in your act. Case closed. This from an experienced magician who almost caught a pre-school on fire using a candle in his show.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Dec 1, 2010 02:43PM)
Something odd about Christopher's posts - first he asks us if we think he should use lighters in a show for kids as young as 5; then he tells us his own son was seriously burned after playing with one of his magic lighters; and now he's apparently terribly upset because no one agrees he should use them.
If you are being serious, Christopher, which seems highly unlikely, you obviously didn't want an opinion about the matter. It seems you already have your own very strong opinion that it's fine to use the lighters. You haven't listened to the replies you've had. So, why ask the question in the first place?
Seems to me that now, if a child sets fire to something shortly after seeing your show, there is documented evidence that you had been well-advised NOT to present effects with lighters. Even if you don't believe it's your fault (just as you don't believe it was your responsibility to keep lighters out of your own child's grasp), you'd have a hard time convincing a court.
You also said: "And yes...I do get paid...whats liability insurance hahahahaha, sue me for everything I own, I dare anybody! Hahahahaha...they're gonna get nothing but useless magic tricks without instructions from me. As for my van, well I don't think I could give it away lol!" To me, this suggests that after years of performing magic, all you have to show for it is a beaten up van and a bunch of second-hand tricks. Hmmmm....
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 02:55PM)
It seems we have all been cowed in and led down the deathshoot, the PC train of thought has permeated us all. I for one being the crazy bazterd that am even took out my headchopper trick for shows including all ages, not just the litte kiddie shows.

Now to be fair I did not say I would 'light' the lighters, but I did indeed notice the fear of the thought of a mere lighter in front of children and feel it's ludicriss that we have to now live n a society that HAS to think this way. Something as common around the house as a bbq grill or fireplace...

Heres a cool trick but bad for kids I suppose, so don't do it folks! Show a white ligher, make it change color to red, light the red candle, it changes to white, candle vanishes and we are now afraid to perform it in front of kids , especially when they see much worse in video games and on tv. Never once has anybody berate me for lighting a candle and making it vanish an get plenty of repeat gigs...*shakes head*...

Two words...Crazy World..."Theres a fire in my brain, stabbing me...the agony, I can't stand it!"

Posted: Dec 1, 2010 4:17pm
Hey Potty,

Acutally my opinion on the lighter trick itself is none existant, all I've been doing is having fun coming up with hot routines. I purposely wanted YOUR and others opinions. I did say and will say it dfferently this time...I noticed how far this PC thing has gone and that is what is upsetting, I should hope you would all feel the same in those regards.

As for my van, I go thru a lot of vehicles man, my lovey wife has crashed most of 'em, lol! As for everything I own, you are correct, it's just a bunch of used magic but man I got a lot and anything else in this house is my wifes and always will be, it's all hers everything I've ever given to her or of myself brother.

What I find strange is the slight hysteria this may've caused amongst some, when was it that all "Pro" magicians stopped using fire in their shows?
Message: Posted by: Jay Ward (Dec 1, 2010 03:37PM)
I highly recommend not using fire at all, but many kids magicians think that using something like a "hot book" is ok since you can't burn down a house by opening books. If you do decide to use lighters, at least use it as an opportunity to talk to the kids about the importance of not playing with lighters, fire, etc.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Dec 1, 2010 03:41PM)
I am going to go against what everyone here has said. If you have a good routine using lighters and ti will entertain kids, go ahead and do it.

I have been asked by parents specifically to include fire breathing in my show on occasion. I am not comfortable with this at a house party, but obviously some parents are.

Those of you who are so PC you won't even use a lighter to light a dove pan, you need to do some serious growing up.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Dec 1, 2010 03:49PM)
You are not going against me Tony!
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 1, 2010 05:44PM)
Chris R. I think the point that has become obfuscated is that your son, somehow deducing you had a lighter in your magic trunk, engaged in a bit of B and E and seriously, albeit non-fatally (thankfully) hurt himself.

Pretty much reinforcing Sock Puppet Monkey's observation that what small children are shown to be cool, they will imitate.

The Line of Slight Hysteria is drawn at whether this is a show aimed at children, or an adult show where children may be present. In the case of a pure kids show, I think you're asking for trouble. If it's an adult show, you are on much firmer ground.

I agree with you that our society has left the throttle open on the P.C. Train, which tends to reinforce the majority position of the responders.

Keith F.

P.S. Personally, I love fire tricks - I just don't perform them in shows for kids.
Message: Posted by: MoonRazor (Dec 1, 2010 06:55PM)
Don't' use fire ....... unless it's 'magic fire' ........... like from a fire wallet....... for some reason I think this is ok, and I have never had a complaint
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 1, 2010 07:13PM)
MoonRazor - You're right. I think it's actually the lighter that's in question. A young child will have difficulty finding a fire wallet, not so a lighter. And let's be honest, we've all played with lighters/matches as young boys, so we know the dangerous draw.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Dec 1, 2010 07:41PM)
But a kid will pour gas onto a wallet and set it on fire.....

What is a magic lighter by the way? I've never seen one.

It should be noted that kids are dumb by nature and fire, sticking things into the mouth or ear or nose, chopping effects....none are a real good idea. The difference between fire and chopping though is the kid, through the fog of dumb that is their life, realize fire isn't good.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 08:09PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 20:13, KMFrye wrote:
MoonRazor - You're right. I think it's actually the lighter that's in question. A young child will have difficulty finding a fire wallet, not so a lighter. And let's be honest, we've all played with lighters/matches as young boys, so we know the dangerous draw.
[/quote]

But if your quick to jump to possible conclusions then we should never underestimate the ingenuity of a young child, whose to say he doesn't associate a lighter with the wallet and then mistakenly tries to combine the two and ends up burning down the house and killing grandma?

This is what I mean.

After having done a lot of shows in my limited lifetime... and I may not be the biggest magicalsuperstarsupposedknowitall of the known world, however I've already done all of what I've stated and then some (except any actual lighter tricks) and never did one person come up to me after any show and even remotely mention I should not use a lighter to light a candle or a dove pan or anything else, no matter what age group was present. They usually ask question I should hope most else would hear after a gig.

[quote]
On 2010-12-01 16:41, TonyB2009 wrote:
I am going to go against what everyone here has said. If you have a good routine using lighters and ti will entertain kids, go ahead and do it.

I have been asked by parents specifically to include fire breathing in my show on occasion. I am not comfortable with this at a house party, but obviously some parents are.

Those of you who are so PC you won't even use a lighter to light a dove pan, you need to do some serious growing up.
[/quote]

Brilliant somebody not afraid to go against the norm.

This is not what I expected the toic o degenerate into, but sadly what else would one expect from the Magic Café at this point. I guess that is when should have started thinking huh? to e honest the only negativity I've ever heard concerning this subject is from other magicians and NOT parents which end p hiring me for their kids party or family get together after a show they just enjoyed.

Funny thing though... whenever I perform the vanishing candle I can only do it indoors, like in a persons living room if I'm hired for a private party, so should I stop using flahbills now also?

Make up your minds people.

And yes I have performed the Bill 2 Lemon using flashbills indoors and out for five year old and up b-day parties, Fire & Knives oh My!!!
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Dec 1, 2010 08:22PM)
For outdoor parties in the Summer time I always give the mom, and dad the option of seeing me juggle flaming torches, and I can't remember anyone refusing my flaming torch juggling finish.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 08:33PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 21:22, Al Angello wrote:
For outdoor parties in the Summer time I always give the mom, and dad the option of seeing me juggle flaming torches, and I can't remember anyone refusing my flaming torch juggling finish.
[/quote]

I'm working on that one myself, just got tah practice more, couple more years I'm sure...*wink*
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 1, 2010 08:35PM)
Chris (may I call you Chris?)

You may not realise it, but you are "begging the question". You can conclude that a lighter-equals-a -lighter, but to conclude that a lighter-equals-a-wallet-equals-a-lighter begins to sound like "reduction ad absurdio". Once you make that leap of logic, a wallet can equal a lighter as easily as a rabbit can equal a lighter. All definitions then cease to have meaning. Such an assertion renders all logical debate moot. Surely that isn't your purpose?

There's no jump at all to suggest that a child will see a lighter as anything else but a lighter (unless you're using a lighter that is made to look like a pistol - which is an entirely different Slightly Hysterical Reaction.) Same logic about a wallet - a child will see it as a wallet. He may run around trying to cause wallets to burst aflame, he may even (arguably) contemplate setting one afire, but in the latter case he will still need to deduce and find himself the materials.

So, yes, it is possible that a child will decide to imitate a flame wallet at home. It is less likely, by comparison, to the lighter because the child will still need to associate lighter plus wallet equals flame wallet.

The problem, as you have adroitly divined, is still the lighter.

Kind regards,
Keith F.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 08:39PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 21:35, KMFrye wrote:
Chris (may I call you Chris?)

You may not realise it, but you are "begging the question". You can conclude that a lighter-equals-a -lighter, but to conclude that a lighter-equals-a-wallet-equals-a-lighter begins to sound like "reduction ad absurdio". Once you make that leap of logic, a wallet can equal a lighter as easily as a rabbit can equal a lighter. All definitions then cease to have meaning. Such an assertion renders all logical debate moot. Surely that isn't your purpose?

There's no jump at all to suggest that a child will see a lighter as anything else but a lighter (unless you're using a lighter that is made to look like a pistol - which is an entirely different Slightly Hysterical Reaction.) Same logic about a wallet - a child will see it as a wallet. He may run around trying to cause wallets to burst aflame, he may even (arguably) contemplate setting one afire, but in the latter case he will still need to deduce and find himself the materials.

So, yes, it is possible that a child will decide to imitate a flame wallet at home. It is less likely, by comparison, to the lighter because the child will still need to associate lighter plus wallet equals flame wallet.

The problem, as you have adroitly divined, is still the lighter.

Kind regards,
Keith F.
[/quote]

Elegantly put, but fire is fire in any representaion is it not? A rabbit does not equal fire unless it is produced by such I would surmise.

Also the word "Adroit" is cool huh?
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 1, 2010 08:41PM)
Al, flaming torches aren't readily available, around the (average) house. This never stopped me from attempting to build one, though the good swift kick from my old granny when she found me out certainly did.

A lighter is just the right size for a child to control - not so a torch.

Keith

Posted: Dec 1, 2010 9:45pm
"Also the word "Adroit" is cool huh?"

If you spell it properly, pretty cool.

Fire IS Fire, absolutely agreed. It's also how it's *perceived* by the kids that must be considered. Aye, there's the rub.

K-
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Dec 1, 2010 08:48PM)
Keith
If you are going to talk about lighters I can't agree with you more, I am disagreing with Christopher even though he is a personal friend of mine.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 08:49PM)
....and also ultimatley the parents job to teach and guide, ah, there's the rub. Problem is people (especially modern day parents) don't like to own up if their kid screws up and sadly I know this for a fact it is not debatable.

[quote]
On 2010-12-01 21:48, Al Angello wrote:
Keith
If you are going to talk about lighters I can't agree with you more, I am disagreing with Christopher even though he is a personal friend of mine.
[/quote]
Well Al, how are you gonna use those torches if you do not use a lighter huh...Magic!?

;)
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 1, 2010 08:51PM)
Any friend of yours, Al, is okay by me. :)

I'm sure Chris has a great lighter routine, hence his passion.

K-

[quote]
On 2010-12-01 21:49, Christopher Rinaldi wrote:
....and also ultimatley the parents job to teach and guide, ah, there's the rub. Problem is people (especially modern day parents) don't like to own up if their kid screws up and sadly I know this for a fact it is not debatable.
[/quote]
Agreed. This underscores the cautionary posts you've been receiving. IF something were to go awry, in today's "Don't Blame the Parents" culture, fingers would point to you.

Keith

Edit: with a very good chance of a Nanny-Court verdict against you.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 08:56PM)
Yes but it is even far easier to point the finger back in this type of circumstance.
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 1, 2010 09:02PM)
Doesn't matter if you're the only one pointing back. And, judging by the culture, that could well be the result.

If nothing else, any legal wrangle would absorb masses of money (doesn't matter if you don't have it - they'll bill you for it and collect out of your wages later) and all manner of time and headache.

It only takes one incident to ruin you. That goes for all of us.

But you're over 18, so in the end, you decide what you'll do.

Regards,
Keith F.

P.S. Your defense would essentially be "That's not the way it should be" (and I agree). The prosecution will demonstrate "That's the way it is..."
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 09:05PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 21:54, KMFrye wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 21:49, Christopher Rinaldi wrote:
....and also ultimatley the parents job to teach and guide, ah, there's the rub. Problem is people (especially modern day parents) don't like to own up if their kid screws up and sadly I know this for a fact it is not debatable.
[/quote]

Agreed. This underscores the cautionary posts you've been receiving. IF something were to go awry, in today's "Don't Blame the Parents" culture, fingers would point to you.

Keith

Edit: with a very good chance of a Nanny-Court verdict against you.
[/quote]

I did indeed win a court case after taking a neighbor to court for subjects having nothing to do with magic but behaviour between kids in the neighborhood and thick headed parents not admiting to their childs fault (or theirs) in the matter. So going to court to dfend what is ultimatley right does not bother me, I find it rather exhilirating at times bu totally a waste of time when it comes down to it.

Ever wonder why there are so many new laws being inacted everyday in this country? The new laws being made are making up for our societies total lack of common sense...as in the the resposibilites of parents, citizens and what-nots.

Texting for example, common sense should dictate it is gnorant to text whle driving yet peopldo it, crash, die and laws have t be created to deter such folly.

I know I know, say the same thing could be said about tricks with lighters huh? However it goes back to teaching our kids the right things, maybe even the performer announces this fact before, in the middle and at the end of his show. I do do this just to make sure the blockheads out there get it and thy come in all shapes, sizes and ages.
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 1, 2010 09:12PM)
Chris,

Not knowing the details, I can't comment except to note that, as the Plaintiff, you won. Since you are intimately acquainted with the details, reverse the positions (you being the defendant) and see if it would resemble the firebug-child scenario.

If not, well there you go.

Interesting aside - for the number of lawyers that read these forums, none have weighed in. I'd like to read what the case law on this topic is.

But winning a single case doesn't make you legally bullet-proof. That would be one of the first things any lawyer (good, bad or indifferent) will tell you.

Regards,
Keith
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 1, 2010 09:34PM)
Well, thankfully I'm not a lawyer...I'm a magician?

;)
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Dec 2, 2010 04:25AM)
I haven't used fire in many years, but that's because I could see how clients appeared very concerned over its use. Also, the lack of coverage for use of fire in the act got me to leave it out, permanently. If the insurer won't cover it, it's because it's a reoccurring problem.
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 2, 2010 12:56PM)
Hi Alan,

Is it because most underwriters flat-out refuse, or is it because of higher (significantly) premiums?

Keith F.
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Dec 2, 2010 03:47PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-02 13:56, KMFrye wrote:
Hi Alan,

Is it because most underwriters flat-out refuse, or is it because of higher (significantly) premiums?

Keith F.
[/quote]
My insurer doesn't have riders available for their policies. However, I imagine that if someone looked hard enough, they could find coverage at a much higher premium.

I'm seen conditions at some of my performances, where toddlers aren't being kept under control by the parents - way too dangerous to be using something like a flaming duck pan. It's bad enough that a toddler was able to get in back of me, during a standup show and trip me. Luckily the kid was only a little startled. It's bad enough that a tall guy like me has blind spots.
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 2, 2010 06:28PM)
Thanks Alan.

KF
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Dec 2, 2010 09:42PM)
Chrisalikadingdongdandy (may I call you Chrisalikadingdongdandy?)

I did a flash string to silk for a kids show in a micro mansion once. A mother, not the birthday childs mother, jumped in and said "It isn't appropriate to use fire in front of children". I, being a rational type, incorporated flash paper and flash string into dang near everything that show, even it was just to make a fire, I would have wrapped myself in flash string if I had enough. Show was great, the interupting mother hated me, and now all those kids are in their 20s and not one of them set themselves on fire and if they do now it isn't my fault. I did use a bic.
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 3, 2010 03:46AM)
Yes, but Santa. If one of those children had played with fire after your show, you would have been sued. Just because you survived one show without a lawsuit, does not mean you should test your luck on the next one.

You can argue your legal right as much as you want. It won't wash the blood of your hands from being responsible for a dead child, nor will it help your business reputation. It won't give you back the time you lose from having to go to court and legal expenses for lawyers. Nor will it get you any repeat work.

And that unhappy parent who did not like you using fire, dare I ask - did she ever book you for her child's parties? No - off course not. By doing tricks with anything that even resembles fire, you have basically lost all repeat and referral work. If you want your business to fail quickly, continue playing with fire.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me one good reason for using fire / flash effects in their kids show. As quite frankly, I can't think of any. All the same tricks will work without fire, and have the same end result. Fire effects are nothing but trouble. They cost money, are difficult to store, lighters can leak / break destroying all your props, can com-bust in your car and cause major damage, and in short supply - meaning you have to constantly reorder fuel / paper eating into your free time, leave a nasty smell in the room they are used in, dry out to become worthless etc.

There are no good reasons.
Message: Posted by: magicgeorge (Dec 3, 2010 05:56AM)
Although I am somewhat inclined to agree with Mr Greggy let's not make things personal and assume Christopher has posed this question and his subsequent responses in the interest of sparking debate and discussion on the forum. Here are my thoughts on the thread:

The kind of fire magic that would worry me the most is the stuff that is easiest to emulate therefore I personally wouldn't set a bank note on fire with a lighter or throw matches into a cooking pot. I'd have less problem about using a fire book or juggling flaming torches.

I don't know why everyone is going on about the "PC brigade". Unless you're using the lighters to set fire to ethnic minorities you're muddling up the "PC Brigade" with the "Health and safety Brigade". To be fair though, they do buy the same newspapers.

Also as Mary pointed out earlier, if you are not actually lighting the lighters then why not use something of a similair size; penknives or small lumps of asbestos for example.
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 3, 2010 06:28AM)
Because the issue here is not about 'Pc Brigade', or trying to change the thought processes of the client. Its about what makes sound business strategy in order to bring in repeat work.
You can argue the legality of using fire, the reasoning for why you should be able to use it and all that until you are blue in the face.

At the end of the day, you need those clients to rebook you and recommend you for future work. Any effect that removes that option from your potential clients should not be performed. It just plain business acumen - if you want to succeed, you give the customers what they want. And what they want if for you to not use fire effects.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 3, 2010 07:43AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-02 21:21, MrGreggy wrote:
So Christopher, what is your real reason for posting that "question" about using lighters for kids shows. It obviously wasn't to get an answer, because you've already made up your mind. Your reason was to merely to cause an argument. I believe you're type is referred to as a "troll". I could be wrong on that title. You're coming across as an idiot. Please just shut up and go away.
[/quote]

Well gee, aren't you mister polite, I should just go away huh?

*shakes head*
Message: Posted by: magicgeorge (Dec 3, 2010 07:45AM)
I can see where you're coming from, Stephen,and agree that pleasing clients is a big part of getting repeat business. However, I know several successful magicians who use fire (sensibly) in their acts so maybe it's less of a concern for customers than you think.

Maybe the number of clients who are impressed by some small pyrotechics out-weigh those who are against it. You'd have to do a survey to find that out rather than just assume what the customer wants.
Message: Posted by: KMFrye (Dec 3, 2010 10:29AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-03 06:56, magicgeorge wrote:

The kind of fire magic that would worry me the most is the stuff that is easiest to emulate therefore I personally wouldn't set a bank note on fire with a lighter or throw matches into a cooking pot. I'd have less problem about using a fire book or juggling flaming torches.
[/quote]

Well said, George. That point was hovering in the background of my argument.

Regards,
Keith F.
Message: Posted by: kimmo (Dec 3, 2010 11:28AM)
The fire book was definitely the most requested routine in my show. I was very proud of my routine but eventually dropped it because of a report on the local news about a couple of kids who set themselves on fire in a school playground. It made me wonder what would have happened if I'd performed at the school the day befpre and some idiot had (incorrectly) made a connection.

I agree with George - can we please learn the difference between political correctness and Health and Safety?
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Dec 3, 2010 01:47PM)
Dang Limey Steve whos promo for your DVD I liked. You didn't even see my post where I said:

It should be noted that kids are dumb by nature and fire, sticking things into the mouth or ear or nose, chopping effects....none are a real good idea. The difference between fire and chopping though is the kid, through the fog of dumb that is their life, realize fire isn't good.

I'm so hurt.
Message: Posted by: Jay Ward (Dec 3, 2010 01:57PM)
Is it a good idea? It may not be bad, but is it good? If someone told me, "I'm going to do a magic routine with lighters that will teach and remind kids the dangers of playing with fire." That could be a good idea. Otherwise, it's probably not such a good idea.
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 3, 2010 05:55PM)
When children are being burnt and the person responsible is not taking any of the blame, I don't beat around the bush. I say what needs to be said. Sorry Santa, regardless of how much you like my promo (cheers by-the-way), children are being burnt all due to the magician thinking about themselves and not the clients / children. Just because you like a trick, does not mean it is appropriate for every audience you have. A good entertainer has to choose the right tricks, and sometimes that means leaving our personal favourites at home.

The original poster came on here to try and sooth his own ego. He started this thread because he knows deep down what he did was wrong and now he is after justification for his part in that child's injury. I won't give him, or any other children's entertainer who uses fire in their show any forgiveness. There actions have cause personal injury to a child. How can anybody say that is okay?

One day, you will get a child hurt. Maybe you drop the fire wallet onto the kid. Maybe you accidentally set light to the curtains. Maybe the child copy you and hurts themselves (like in the example). It seems to me that with all the tricks in this world, whey would you choose any with such dangerous repercussions.

And as for those that claim the fire wallet / book etc were the most requested part of their show. I feel sorry for you. That a magic trick is more liked than the magician. I personally get re-booked because the children and clients like me and want to see me again, whatever I do. No trick is bigger than my character.

If the tricks are out-shining you, then there is something wrong. I understand the need for good magic, but how you present it means so much more, and I strongly believe that a good magician / entertainer can make even the most boring trick entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 3, 2010 07:20PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-03 18:55, ku7uk3 wrote:
When children are being burnt and the person responsible is not taking any of the blame, I don't beat around the bush. I say what needs to be said. Sorry Santa, regardless of how much you like my promo (cheers by-the-way), children are being burnt all due to the magician thinking about themselves and not the clients / children. Just because you like a trick, does not mean it is appropriate for every audience you have. A good entertainer has to choose the right tricks, and sometimes that means leaving our personal favourites at home.

The original poster came on here to try and sooth his own ego. He started this thread because he knows deep down what he did was wrong and now he is after justification for his part in that child's injury. I won't give him, or any other children's entertainer who uses fire in their show any forgiveness. There actions have cause personal injury to a child. How can anybody say that is okay?

[/quote]

Lmao, dude calm down, I'm sorry for laughing but you are projecting so much into this...I can just imagine the horrible negligence you must think I commited against my son, oh man.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 3, 2010 07:41PM)
First off I believe if one uses a lighter to lite a vanishing candle and then a moment later the candle is changed color, vanished or both the magic of the color chang and vanish is what will be remembered and stand out in any persons mind, young and old, not the momentary usage of a lighter.

A routine where the lighters are the primary props should be highly questionable in this hyper litigious day and age. I feel a patter that would teach against using lighters or matches would just instigate and prompt the child even more so to play with lighters.

If any of you truly know kids this is how they are, just tell 'em not to do something and then later watch them do it anyways...it's human nature.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 3, 2010 07:54PM)
I'll share somethng else with you fine folks here at the magic Café, something else about the son that got burned when playing with fire. This same kid at the age of seventeen spent the night at his friends house, while at the friends house, late at night, they were goofing off and my son got his eye poked out...literally, he has a donor cornea and retina and such and now has barely any sight in his eye and it cause him pain all the time. he is now 20 years of age and still has a hard time learning his lessons in life.

This is how he got his eye poked out, now I heard many stories about what happened that night but it took a year to get the truth out of him. At first he said him and his friend were wrestling in the dark and his eye got impaled on a bed post. Sounds horrible huh? Makes you feel sorry for him doesn't it?

This is what really happened...

Him and his friend were sitting in the dark talking smack to each other and goofing around, my son picked up a pair of scissors and tossed them at his friend. The friend in retailiation threw the scissors back at my son...my son caught the scissors in his eye.

He felt ashamed because he knew he shouldn't be throwing scissors so he lied about how he got hurt. Trust me, he is the poster boy for kids that do not listen to their elders.

Kids.

I suppose now I should be wracked with guilt and take my cut & restored rope trick out of the act now ...

[quote]
On 2010-12-03 18:55, ku7uk3 wrote:
And as for those that claim the fire wallet / book etc were the most requested part of their show. I feel sorry for you. That a magic trick is more liked than the magician. I personally get re-booked because the children and clients like me and want to see me again, whatever I do. No trick is bigger than my character.

If the tricks are out-shining you, then there is something wrong. I understand the need for good magic, but how you present it means so much more, and I strongly believe that a good magician / entertainer can make even the most boring trick entertaining.
[/quote]
I believe Kimmo said Firebook Routine...see that word Routine?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Dec 3, 2010 09:13PM)
I am constantly being told that parts of my routine are horrible effects that will drive away business. Magicians are always telling me to drop the balloon swallow, etc. Funnily enough no booker has ever expressed those views. In fact bookers, as opposed to fellow magicians, have specifically requested those sorts of effects. For children's shows over the years I have been ASKED FOR knife through arm, fire breathing, and walking on broken glass, among others.
I am personally of the view that all three of those effects are more suited for an adult audience, but when requested I have included them. They have gone down well, and have not driven business to my rivals. I know, because I get plenty of repeat business.
Kimmo, we aren't mistaking the PC mindset and the Health and Safety mindset. We are just lumping them together because they go hand in hand. The reality is that if you use a lighter to fire a dove pan and produce sweets for the children (I don't myself, because I am too stingy!) there is no real safety risk, except in the PC and H&S raddled minds of the minority. Reasonable people (the vast majority) do not have a problem with this use of a lighter.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 3, 2010 11:14PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-01 20:41, MagicSanta wrote:
But a kid will pour gas onto a wallet and set it on fire.....

What is a magic lighter by the way? I've never seen one.

It should be noted that kids are dumb by nature and fire, sticking things into the mouth or ear or nose, chopping effects....none are a real good idea. The difference between fire and chopping though is the kid, through the fog of dumb that is their life, realize fire isn't good.
[/quote]
MagicSanta, the lighter I had was an old zippo, ya light the zippo and then pluck the flame from the lighter with bare fingers and use the flame to light a candle.

Here's the funny part ... I never used the lighter in my show, far too many times if one wasn't careful you could get burned on the finger tips and that's not a nice feeling in the middle of a show is it? I actually used it in every day life...just like the color changing lighter, appearing cigarette, cig up nose/in ear etc. vanishing cig with p*ll.

[quote]
On 2010-12-03 22:13, TonyB2009 wrote:
I am constantly being told that parts of my routine are horrible effects that will drive away business. Magicians are always telling me to drop the balloon swallow, etc. Funnily enough no booker has ever expressed those views. In fact bookers, as opposed to fellow magicians, have specifically requested those sorts of effects. For children's shows over the years I have been ASKED FOR knife through arm, fire breathing, and walking on broken glass, among others.
I am personally of the view that all three of those effects are more suited for an adult audience, but when requested I have included them. They have gone down well, and have not driven business to my rivals. I know, because I get plenty of repeat business.
Kimmo, we aren't mistaking the PC mindset and the Health and Safety mindset. We are just lumping them together because they go hand in hand. The reality is that if you use a lighter to fire a dove pan and produce sweets for the children (I don't myself, because I am too stingy!) there is no real safety risk, except in the PC and H&S raddled minds of the minority. Reasonable people (the vast majority) do not have a problem with this use of a lighter.
[/quote]
Tony, my old show from 1996-2006 consisted of tricks like the french head chopper (mak), voodoo box, ropes thru neck & body, bisection, headtwister, straitjacket (for 5 yrs old & up), flaming head chest, Dagger Inc, vanishing /appearing candle, torch 2 rose, dove pan...etc the list could go one man.

Whenever I was booked to be with other kids entertainers I was always asked to go on last...why???

Because the other kids entertainers couldn't follow my act, there was no way and yes my act was designed for kids of all ages and man it went over like gangbusters, I got booked on the reputation of my show alone.

There was no coloring book nor break away wands in my show, the other kids entertainers had to bicker amongst themselves as to who was gonna do what tricks because they were basically doing all the same stuff.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Dec 4, 2010 12:28AM)
(since people don't read what I post I might as well drag it on....but you won't notice)

My problem with not using lighters in my show is how else do I light the cigarettes? I can't just bring a toaster out and let it get hot then use that to light the cigs for the manipulation routine. I am considering lighting my glass of brandy before I toast the birthday child, just an idea now though. At present I produce the snifter of brandy and raise it to the birthday boy or girl and say "Sorry, you can't have any of this until you are 12".
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (Dec 4, 2010 03:49AM)
[i](Pardon me whilst I zip up my flame proof suit...)[/i]

[b]PC...? BS!!![/b]

I get so hacked off every time I read one of these stupid PC debates concerning the appropriateness of certain effects in the realm of Children's Entertainment. For all of you who are spouting off about "don't do this in your show!", why don't you focus on your own show and quit worrying about ours.

If you want to use fire in your show (or anything else), then use it and quit asking a bunch of magicians who have nothing better to do than sit around on a magic forum spouting off nonsense and "preaching the gospel" what their opinion is. Who cares what a bunch of magicians think. The important thing is what your clients think!

It's all about COMMUNICATION people!!!! Plain and simple!!!!

Unlike many, I am able to offer SEVERAL different shows to my clients...eight to be exact. The two shows that I book the most for birthday parties/private home shows are my "Whirlwind of Magic Show" and my "Concentrated Insanity Show." They are completely polar opposite of each other. One show is what many magi would consider "young child friendly" and the other show is full of daredevil stunts and dangerous shock magic. I'll let you figure out which is which...

When the client calls me, I give them a description of each show and I let them choose which show will best fit their crowd as they know their audience more than I do.

Concentrated Insanity is my most popular show and the one that is usually booked. The show contains:

- Fire Eating and Fire Manipulation
- Torch thru Arm
- The Balloon Swallow
- Razor Blades
- Spike Roulette
- Needle thru Arm
- Straight Jacket Escape

...just to name a few.

I have performed this show for ages 6 and above. Why? Simple! The client selected that show for their child's party. They could choose from whatever shows they wanted and THAT was the one they picked!

I use more than a lighter in my show, I use torches! YES! I do fire eating in peoples homes. I communicate my needs to the client PRIOR to the show and it's all drawn out in my contract. The client disables their smoke alarms so they won't go off during the show. I have two fire extinguishers on hand at all times, one on each side of my set up along with a fire blanket as a safety precaution. In 20 years, I've NEVER had to use any of them. I have a spotless safety record!

At my weekend restaurant, I perform my stage act 9 times Friday thru Sunday and Fire Eating is part of the show. The owner of the restaurant loves it and it's a staple of my act. He has to pay for all of his permits (and from what I understand, it ain't cheap), but he supports it as we witness every weekend the reactions it gets.

I do have insurance on my act, so if something does go wrong, then I (and my client) are totally covered. I pay up the wazoo for it, but it's worth the peace of mind. There is also a clause in my contract that states EXACTLY what my show will consist of and I make the client initial that clause giving me permission to perform it their home, or school, etc. My contract was drawn up by an attorney and it is rock solid and it will hold up in court...should the need ever arise.

As I said above, as long as you provide FULL DISCLOSURE to the client during the booking process as far as what your show is all about, then your off the hook! If someone get's hacked off over the material in your show, then you can direct them to the person who booked you because it was their choice what show you performed.

I have performed all of the above routines in home shows, daycare's and schools before 100s of kids ranging in age from 6 to 12+ to great applause and I DO get called back to perform over and over again. Why? Because my show is fun and entertaining. Mystery, Magic, and Mayhem. It's all about ENTERTAINMENT!

The natural argument that I get sick and tired of hearing from all you PC junkies out there, usually goes something like this:

[i]"Children will try to duplicate what they see a magician do on stage. It's irresponsible to perform anything dangerous or even something that gives the illusion of danger in front of children." [/i]

or

[i]"I don't care how often you say "Don't try this at home", they will try it at home. I hope you never have to live with the knowledge that something you did caused a child harm when they tried it themselves." [/i]

I've been listening to that same tired argument for years now from other Magicians. I think it's rubbish and I dismiss it...and I'll tell you why.

First of all, I have found that no matter what you do, you will never be able to please 100% of your audience 100% of the time. It's just not going to happen! Truthfully, it seems to me that the majority of folks who take issue with this are overly sensitive magicians who are so concerned with being Politically Correct that they condemn themselves to Change Bags and Run Rabbit Run.

My answer to the above argument is quite simple. How can a child duplicate what they see me do during my show?

Let's chat first about RAZORS. Truth be told, double edged Razor Blades are not even that relevant anymore. Much like wearing a monocle in ones eye would seem out of place, so are double edged razors. But people can still identify with them as something sharp and potentially life threatening, especially when placed in ones mouth! But that's another story for another time...

WHERE is a child going to get a double edged razor blade? That's not usually something that is kept in the home. A child would need to go out and buy them. What idiot would sell a child a packet of razor blades???

Also, (since I brought up how this item isn't very current in today's society) it's becoming harder and harder to find Double Edged Razor Blades in stores. The Wal-Mart out by me no longer sells them. The last time I was there, I was talking to the stock person who told me they no longer sell them, but he had about 4 packages in the back (which I bought up). Walgreens no longer sells them either (at least in my neck of the woods).

So these aren't' even easily obtainable by an adult let alone a child. So how would a child emulate me performing my razor blade routine? Hmmm...I think not!

Now let's chat about FIRE! Where is a child going to get the material to perform fire eating/manipulation? To do a basic fire eating act you need the following:

- A Lighter
- Fuel
- A Container to Hold the Fuel
- A Torch or Torches
- A Fire Extinguisher
- A Fire Blanket

Where is a child going to get all of this from? They would have to go out and buy it. Again...what idiot in their right mind would SELL THIS STUFF to a minor? Let's just say for the sake of saying it, that some idiot did sell a torch, lighter, and fuel to a child (which would NEVER happen). So now little Johnny is out in the back yard and he lights up a torch. Little Johnny assumes the fire eating stance and starts to bring the torch close to their face. They feel the heat and how hot it is...so they pull back!

I was talking to Fielding West once after a lecture about his very subject and his response to me was [i]"NO KID IS EVER GOING TO PUT FIRE IN THEIR MOUTH! They'll feel the heat and pull it away" [/i]

Now let's talk about the BALLOON SWALLOW. Where is a child going to get a 260 balloon to swallow? Hmmmm... True... they could go to a store and buy 260s if they know what to look for. However, a 260 fully inflated is too wide to fit into a child's mouth. It won't fit! It's a physical impossibility. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

The whole point of all this is if a child is able to gain access to any of the stuff I have mentioned above then seeing my show is the LEAST of their problems!

[b]WHERE ARE THEIR PARENTS???? [/b] It's up to the parents to teach their children that they are not to do what they see the Magician do. If a child sees me or anyone performing something dangerous and doesn't have the common sense to talk to their child and exhibit a little bit of parenting, then if their child injures themselves after the show while being an idiot, as unfortunate as that would be, it's the parents fault, not mine!

There is MUCH MORE DANGER represented on your local news, on TV Shows, in the Movies, etc. There's more danger on YouTube than in my show.

People should give the kids of today a tad more credit then they do. Kids are smart (far smarter than most adults I find). Most kids wouldn't be dumb enough to try this stuff. If they are that stupid, then their parents are to blame for not doing their job as parents...not for me doing my job as an entertainer.

Let me throw a different slant on this for a minute. I have been to Ringling Brothers Circus every year for the last 10 years. The circus (geared towards families and children) is LOADED WITH DANGEROUS STUFF. I have seen people juggle fire while on a 10 foot unicycle, perform fire eating and blowing, putting their heads in the mouths of lions and tigers, swinging from a trapeze, being shot a 1/2 mile out of a cannon, etc.

After the circus, if a child were to go home and try and stick his head in the family dogs mouth and gets injured or ties a rope between two houses and falls while attempting a High Wire Act, who should be held responsible? The circus? Of course not! The parents would be held responsible!

There seems to be a double standard. Why is ok for kids to watch danger in a Circus or on TV or on YouTube or in the Movies, but it's taboo outside of those arenas?

It's this kind of mindless nonsense that really hacks me off! People don't really know how good magic can be. Why? Because their only experience with Magic is some guy doing 20th Century Silks at a Birthday Party and pulling a rabbit out of a hat. As a community of Magicians, I fear that many of us do more harm than good. We have gotten so PC when it comes to performing for kids that many of the shows lack ANY ENTERTAINMENT VALUE WHATSOEVER!

As of late, I have been doing quite a bit of soul searching about my magic and what it means to me. Tho' my show is riddled with humor, insanity, and zanyness, I do consider myself a serious performance artist. I enjoy performing for people who enjoy magic...however, it seems to me as the years go on, that finding "adults" who enjoy watching the fine art of magic are becoming fewer and fewer.

Why is this?

I believe that there is a negative perception that has been around for many years that magic is nothing more than entertainment for children. I think that most people, when they think of what magic is, will always remember a time when they attended a birthday party (either as a child or an adult) where they saw Grandpa Earl dressed up in his Lodge Jacket wearing his Benevolent Order of Antelope Fez hacking thru his exciting rendition of Hippy Hop Rabbits and Stratosphere with 50 yards of multicolored silks tied together coming out of his sleeve.

Sadly, there are MANY ACTS out there in the trenches today that are EXACTLY as I described above. So long as Magicians continue to perform this same things over and over again with stock presentations, the perception will never go away. It's that reason that I feel I need my show to be different from the normal "kids show" that people are accustomed to watching. It's my hope that YOU feel the same way about YOUR SHOW!

The society that we live in today is far different from that of say 20+ years ago. The world is changing and if we as entertainers do not change with it, then I fear Magicians will become nothing more than a bad punch line... which technically, we already are.

I will leave you with this final thought. Follow these three rules:

1. Do your act
2. Do it well
3. Be entertaining

AND QUIT asking a bunch of magicians on a magic forum what they think about your act. It doesn't matter what we think. Do what you want to do!!!!

So to Christopher Rinaldi, if you wanna use a lighter than go for it and don't second guess yourself.

Rant over...!

Christopher
Message: Posted by: Aaron Smith Magic (Dec 4, 2010 04:17AM)
[quote]
Sadly, there are MANY ACTS out there in the trenches today that are EXACTLY as I described above. So long as Magicians continue to perform this same things over and over again with stock presentations, the perception will never go away. It's that reason that I feel I need my show to be different from the normal "kids show" that people are accustomed to watching. It's my hope that YOU feel the same way about YOUR SHOW!

The society that we live in today is far different from that of say 20+ years ago. The world is changing and if we as entertainers do not change with it, then I fear Magicians will become nothing more than a bad punch line... which technically, we already are.

I will leave you with this final thought. Follow these three rules:

1. Do your act
2. Do it well
3. Be entertaining

AND QUIT asking a bunch of magicians on a magic forum what they think about your act. It doesn't matter what we think. Do what you want to do!!!!
[/quote]

The absolute best post I've ever read on this website, especially what I outlined above. Christopher, your the man!
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Dec 4, 2010 04:18AM)
MagicSanta, I like the sound of your show. Christopher, some words of wisdom.
Here's a sincere suggestion for improving your act. Forget about removing the lighters, and instead remove the chair suspension, colouring book, and rabbit production, and replace them with some magic.
Message: Posted by: magicgeorge (Dec 4, 2010 05:15AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-03 18:55, ku7uk3 wrote:
...Maybe you drop the fire wallet onto the kid. Maybe you accidentally set light to the curtains...[/quote]

When Kimmo said he dropped the fire book, I don't think meant literally...

[quote]
On 2010-12-03 22:13, TonyB2009 wrote:
Kimmo, we aren't mistaking the PC mindset and the Health and Safety mindset. We are just lumping them together because they go hand in hand. The reality is that if you use a lighter to fire a dove pan and produce sweets for the children (I don't myself, because I am too stingy!) there is no real safety risk, except in the PC and H&S raddled minds of the minority. Reasonable people (the vast majority) do not have a problem with this use of a lighter.
[/quote]

Right on Tony; racism, sexism and uncovered manholes, that's what the people want.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Dec 4, 2010 05:14PM)
Sadly, I see frivilous law suits made against others every week. Blame is put on others and not them and some just want to see if they can profit from it.

Some parents do try to put the blame on others and not their children. I have been told many times how I am hurting their child by charging them with a crime or a traffic infraction. I have told the parents that I see why their child is like they are, because they have not been taught to take responsibility for their own actions.

I have given people written warnings instead of citations for traffic offenses when they own up to their responsibility. It is refreshing to see that.

It is like the criminal who was caught on video tape, he said, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes".

The reason I quit doing the needle through the arm with seniors is because one lady fainted. Whatever the client wants is fine with me as long as there is no danger to anyone. If need be, get a hold harmless agreement signed prior to a show after explaining about fire effects, should something go wrong or the child does decide to emulate the performer. You may need the advice of an attorney on this.

Just my four cents. Glenn
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (Dec 4, 2010 05:32PM)
It occurred to me almost every kid in the world has had countless lit candles on their birthday cakes. In fact, each year those ruthless, insensitive parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles add even MORE candles! MORE FIRE!!!!

I think we ought to call for a ban on birthday candles! They obviously only lead to trouble.

While we're at it, I think we should all refrain from driving motor vehicles to our shows. Kids might see us in them and assume that they are safe. After all, kids are curious and will figure if WE can drive them, so can they. They will cause accidents and many of them will wind up in hospitals. Or they may not realize how dangerous a motorized vehicle can be and might run out in front of one! If Amazing Stephen drives a car, they might just run out in front of one to see if he is inside.

And what about scissors? Keep them out of you're show. They're sharp. Kids might see you with them and assume they are safe to run with. They could put somebody's eye out!

Let's not forget rabbits. Rabbits in the wild carry disease. Kids, being the stupid little creatures they are, might jump onto one, get bit, contract rabies, and die. If you ever say a hospital room full of kids with rabies, you'd never put a rabbit in your show again.

Let's not ignore paper cuts (leave out the "hat tears" and "cut and restored" effects.) Rope tricks? No way! Some child with undoubtedly make a noose. Wands? All it takes is ONE child to stick one up his nose or into his ear and you'll feel terrible for the rest of your life.

You are better off just telling stories. Wait, I take that back .... Fairy tales are horribly violent! Might give the little angels nightmares.
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 4, 2010 06:02PM)
Only the parent can lite the candles on a birthday cake. When do you ever see the child doing it? - never. There is a big difference between the authority figure (the parent) and the fun entertainer. With parents, they know the law, with an entertainer, he sets the standard for what they can get away with.
Even so, I've been to many parties where there were no candles on the cake, and others where the child was scared of the candles so much that they refused to get close to blow them out. If you really want to scare the birthday child more, and ruin their birthday party then continue using fire. I agree, older children like to see you 'break the rules' and play with fire. If you think that makes you cool, it doesn't - not for the clients anyway. But for younger children it only makes them more scared of you.

We have safety scissors due to the danger of them in children's hands. If you want an example of that, read Chris's post above.

Cars are given start-up 'keys', to prevent children from opening the door and starting the engine.

Rabbits and all live animals are now banned from entertainment acts in the UK. I admit, the law was only passed recently and applied specifically to circuses. But due to the way they are handled, strict licenses must be enforced if you plan to use one in your act.
As for diseases, you are absolutely right. From Bird-flu, to Mad Cow disease, most animals in the is country are banned from entertainment acts, and more specifically almost all public buildings.
Try and find a magician with a rabbit, they are few and far between.

Steve
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Dec 4, 2010 06:03PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-04 06:15, magicgeorge wrote:
Right on Tony; racism, sexism and uncovered manholes, that's what the people want.
[/quote]
George, you can avoid racism, sexism, and all forms of bigotry, without becoming a PC whiner. Being anti-PC does not imply you are in any way bigoted.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 4, 2010 06:08PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-04 18:32, Starrpower wrote:
It occurred to me almost every kid in the world has had countless lit candles on their birthday cakes. In fact, each year those ruthless, insensitive parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles add even MORE candles! MORE FIRE!!!!

I think we ought to call for a ban on birthday candles! They obviously only lead to trouble.

[/quote]
Man, I was patiently wondering if someone was going to make this connection, lmao!!! I was going to let it go another day or two before I mentoned b-day candles on the kids cake, thank you Starrpower!

[quote]
On 2010-12-04 19:02, ku7uk3 wrote:
Only the parent can lite the candles on a birthday cake. When do you ever see the child doing it? - never. There is a big difference between the authority figure (the parent) and the fun entertainer. With parents, they know the law, with an entertainer, he sets the standard for what they can get away with.
[/quote]
And not a soul on this thread said that a child should light his own candles for the cake man...*shakes head*...dude do you even have kids? Your remarks remind me of Department of Social Service Worker that doesn't have ANY kids of their own but will tell others the right way to raise theirs...you funny.
Message: Posted by: Bill Knight (Dec 4, 2010 08:32PM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-04 19:02, ku7uk3 wrote:

Rabbits and all live animals are now banned from entertainment acts in the UK. I admit, the law was only passed recently and applied specifically to circuses. But due to the way they are handled, strict licenses must be enforced if you plan to use one in your act.
As for diseases, you are absolutely right. From Bird-flu, to Mad Cow disease, most animals in the is country are banned from entertainment acts, and more specifically almost all public buildings.
Try and find a magician with a rabbit, they are few and far between.

Steve
[/quote]


Err..... not sure if this is true Steve but don't know enough to argue the point. I know lots of magicians in my area who have a rabbit, and doves and, as far as I know, they have never been told that they can't bring them into a public building.

As for this debate, there is a lot of talk about fire, which I don't use personally but Chris has stated that he doesn't want to use fire, just the lighter. Again, this is not something that I use myself so I am in no position to argue.

As for being sued, that is a something to be very wary of, how many companies advertise on UK TV with slogans like "if there is blame, there is a claim"

In the event of an accident, if people think that they can make some money out of you, they WILL try. In my opinion, this isn't PC or health & safety, it's greed.

So, I don't use lighters or fire, I wouldn't advise anyone to use them but, if you want to risk it and can get the risk assesment (needed for various council funded work) passed, that is up to you.

Have fun
Bill
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 5, 2010 01:27AM)
I personaly know a entertainer/magician whose pants fall down at the end of his show...uh-oh! Although he has confided in me and expressed his concern with growing older and by the time he hits fifty it may be considered creepy, the magician in question is 41 years of age at this very moment.

I feel for him.

:(
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Dec 5, 2010 08:33AM)
Christopher
I know the magician that you are talking about, and want to say.

HAPPY 41st BIRTHDAY JOHNNY
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (Dec 5, 2010 01:08PM)
A man in his underwear is always funny. It's a classic ploy. We have seen all the masters in their underwear: the Stooges, Jerry Lewis, romantic comics like Cary Grant, Spongebob, Homer Simpson, and even Marty McFly. In recent years, they seem to have moved to briefs, although I personally prefer the classic boxers with a funny pattern like hearts or smiley faces. Dark socks with garters are a must.

I would consider it creepy if he was dressed as a priest.

But since this thread is about lighters and fire, I think I would refrain from lying while dropping trou, as that would entail one's pants being on fire.

Posted: Dec 5, 2010 2:15pm
As an aside, one of the funniest things I have ever seen in real life dealt with a man dropping his pants. My daughter and I were at a community event where Santa walked from the parade to a community building where he would do a meet and greet. As he walked, he was completely unaware that his Santa pants were falling down until they reached his ankles. To this day, I smile every time I recall that image.

Strike that ... I chuckle aloud. I man sans pants is funny.
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 6, 2010 04:07AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-05 14:08, Starrpower wrote:
I would consider it creepy if he was dressed as a priest.
[/quote]

:) :) :)
Message: Posted by: stijnhommes (Dec 6, 2010 07:19PM)
[quote]And it's plain dumb to present something using potentially very dangerous articles, which kids under the age of at least 10 should NEVER get anywhere near.[/quote] Well Potty, that's just the problem. Some people find the most mundane items dangerous. There is a school that banned pencils because they could be used as weapons and at another, a boy was blinded when a friend bumped into him causing him to fall onto a paintbrush. Does that mean you must ban any paintbrush or writing implement from your show? No, of course not.

Fire is a minefield, but I don't think NEVER is the right word. The choice should be based on the individual children. They all differ in development. In one show you could do a fire effect for a bunch of 5 year olds no problem, in another with 8 year olds you might be better of not doing it.

I subscribe to Gever Tulley's view that children should be allowed to learn about fire in a safe environment. The power to understand and to a certain extend control fire is a major step in someone's childhood. Someone who hasn't learnt it won't be able to build a campfire or be comfortable around candles.

Make it a learning experience with plenty of parental guidance.
Message: Posted by: magic4545 (Dec 12, 2010 09:33PM)
I agree with Chris Lyle. Most of the performers who want to 'police' this are not the most creative or cutting edge. They're usually more of a stiff upper lip, political type who rely on 'codes' and regulation to keep themselves and their boring acts booked. Sell fear.

Children see dangerous stunts at the circus. The only problem with magicians doing dangerous stuff is when the magicians doing it are inept, and the children pick up on the ineptitude. At that point, yeah, they might try what the magician is doing if they don't respect him or his abilities.

I've never in several decades had a child try what I was doing.

Jimmy
Message: Posted by: magicgeorge (Dec 15, 2010 09:45AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-04 19:03, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-12-04 06:15, magicgeorge wrote:
Right on Tony; racism, sexism and uncovered manholes, that's what the people want.
[/quote]
George, you can avoid racism, sexism, and all forms of bigotry, without becoming a PC whiner. Being anti-PC does not imply you are in any way bigoted.
[/quote]

Sorry Tony, I was exaggerating somewhat for comic effect and of course I wasn't suggesting you are any of the above!
My point is that I believe being "PC" simply means not saying or doing anything offensive to someone because of their gender, race, sexual orientation or disability (whining optional) which makes me wonder what "anti-PC" actually means. I've never come across any examples of the PC brigade spoiling my life or the H&S brigade being over-protective toward the public. I've only ever read about the occasional extreme example sensationalised (or completely made up) by the odd tabloid.

If you're 100% sure that whatever you're doing (fire, balloon swallowing, bumcoils, whatever)is completely safe and socially acceptable then do whatever you want to do.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 19, 2010 02:11AM)
Sooooo.... I recently did an x-mas show for people of all ages at an Elk's Club, plenty of kids about. I purposely performed a sucker lighter routine in the act just to see what would happen.

I used a White paper gift bag and a Red paper gift bag (santa colors), a White Lighter and a Red Lighter, the red lighter was placed in the red bag and the white lighter placed in the white paper bag. The lighters changed places a few times, at the end when the folks thought there were extra Red & White Lighters in the paper bags the bags are tipped over to reveal a Green Lighter from the white bag and a Yellow Lighter from the red bag...

"I guess that's why we shouldn't play with lighters!"

It went over well and was routined along with a vanishing candle and some silks, the exact routine I will not describe in exact detail but I will say not a soul came up to me and complained, matter of fact as usual I got more private gigs outta the deal.

Granted, most of these people that are affiliated with the local Elks Clubs within a hundred mile raduis of myself are not your run of the mill upper class snooty PC types so it may be easier for me to get away with things like this...I dunno, maybe it has to do with character? I do come off as the *I'm gonna do it my way type* and most times people enjoy coming along for the ride.
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 19, 2010 02:15AM)
This joke is old now. Give it a rest.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Dec 19, 2010 02:23AM)
[quote]
On 2010-12-19 03:15, ku7uk3 wrote:
This joke is old now. Give it a rest.
[/quote]

Sorry man, are you trying to tell one?

To some of you and I mean that to a certain few that actualy believe I may not have been serious about this whole fiasco...oh but I was, I WAS. Matter of fact since this threads creation I've done more magic with lighters than I thought possible.

:)
Message: Posted by: Red Shadow (Dec 19, 2010 02:58AM)
[quote]
about this whole fiasco
:)
[/quote]

Do I need to say more. I wont comment any further, continue annoying people if you want.
Message: Posted by: TomFoolery (Dec 19, 2010 04:24AM)
There are two or three reasons why I dropped fire from my kids act:
1/ I kept forgetting matches / lighters
2/ Myself and my props would smell of smoke and lighter fluid (especially my dove pan).
3/ Increase in very sensitive smoke detectors
4/ Insurance

However a family show is different, if mums and dads present with a clean family presentation I think fire is OK but for a kids birthday party a big no no.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Bagatelli (Dec 19, 2010 05:04AM)
[quote]
Check out my review of 'Close-Up magic for Children' by Practical Magic on the review thread.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=384396&forum=111&7
[/quote]

Thank you for you review, but also thank you for the hint/the link in the children section.
Otherwise I woul have passed it, because I normaly only use this section.
Message: Posted by: Booter (Jan 10, 2016 10:39PM)
As a retired fire prevention officer, I'll tell you two things:
1 kiddies CAN and do light childproof lighters lighters, and cause damage. We had a school burn to the ground, because a student lit some paper on the wall on fire.

2 teaching lighters and matches are tools not toys is OK, showing fire or fire play as magical is just plain irresponsible.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 11, 2016 08:03AM)
[quote]On Jan 10, 2016, Booter wrote:
As a retired fire prevention officer, I'll tell you two things:
1 kiddies CAN and do light childproof lighters lighters, and cause damage. We had a school burn to the ground, because a student lit some paper on the wall on fire.

2 teaching lighters and matches are tools not toys is OK, showing fire or fire play as magical is just plain irresponsible. [/quote]
Whether I agree with you or not - and I don't, as it happens - why bring this up after six years?
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Jan 19, 2016 01:19AM)
I used matches to perform the Baking A Cake in that routine. The cake, magically made, was delicious. I also light my Fantasio Candle before vanishing.

I think people here are over reacting on both sides of the argument. Do what you feel is right for you.
Message: Posted by: MoonRazor (Jan 19, 2016 09:09AM)
[quote]On Jan 10, 2016, Booter wrote:
As a retired fire prevention officer, I'll tell you two things:
1 kiddies CAN and do light childproof lighters lighters, and cause damage. We had a school burn to the ground, because a student lit some paper on the wall on fire.

2 teaching lighters and matches are tools not toys is OK, showing fire or fire play as magical is just plain irresponsible. [/quote]

i tend to lean toward this thinking, I've used fire in my shows before and as a kid practicing my magic I should have burnt down my house numerous times.

I think Barry Mitchell recommended using "magic fire" in your show. meaning not fire from matches or lighters but perhaps from fickle fire gimmick. I would think
that is the best option if fire is used in kids shows.
Message: Posted by: jay leslie (Jan 19, 2016 09:31PM)
Remember...... Tony doesn't use fire with kids........ just teachers.