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Topic: MAK Steel Chair Suspension, Deluxe
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Dec 31, 2010 01:49PM)
Does anyone have any experience with the newer MAK Steel Chair Suspension Deluxe? ( http://www.abbottmagic.com/Chair-Suspension-Deluxe-STEEL-p0704.htm ) Is this simply an excuse to raise the price or does it really have some enhancements? How does this compare with the Mephisto version? My apology if this has been previously discussed as I could not find anything when searching.

Thanks!!
Dan.
Message: Posted by: Magic Patrick (Dec 31, 2010 02:32PM)
Dan,

I am not sure if there is anything different than that it can hold more weight. It looks like my chair suspension but mine can only hold 140 pounds. What I hate seeing is a plastic cheapy stool infront of an expensive prop. The chair suspension looks nice but I am not sure it is worth $920. For that I can buy a Magellan Master Levitation and only lug around 20 pounds of equipment and not the 50 pounds this looks like.

Patrick
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Dec 31, 2010 04:52PM)
I have the first version of MAKs. The new one seems to be more secure because the chair support is 100% steel. That is why it can support more weight. Maybe the board support is easier to hide now because it does not need to be as long, not sure. Maybe both chairs look identically the same. There was a noticeable difference in the first version.

I do have the Mephisto Version too. The hidden b***d is more longer than MAKs. That is why her legs were hanging slightly down in the video. The Mephisto Version is easy to set up with no angle problems in front of a crowd.

If you want to perform the illusion with kids more, select MAKs. If you rather select adults, go with the Mephisto Version.
Message: Posted by: jay leslie (Dec 31, 2010 06:41PM)
It looks like the G chair is larger where the extra metal is added. I think the audience will say something negative.
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jan 1, 2011 02:55PM)
Thank you ... great questions. Does anyone actually have one of these that might be able to comment? I had an older MAK and didn't like the slight sag ... Does the additional steel eliminate that? And to Jay's point, does the enhancements flash and stand out?

Dan.
Message: Posted by: jimhlou (Jan 1, 2011 03:41PM)
If you're going to spend this kind of money, get the European Suspension.

Jim
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Jan 1, 2011 05:17PM)
I agree with Jim on this. The new mak version is ok but if you are putting out the money, the European model is better in my humble opinion.

In regards to sag, the main reason why any sag is shown in some of the models is from the performer not realizing the proper positioning of the helper on the illusion itself. With proper positioniong, there should never be any sag. If the board sags without anyone on it, then check your connections. if the connections are correct, send the illusion back because it should not be that way.

Hope this helps.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Mary Mowder (Jan 1, 2011 05:38PM)
Why do so many suspensions look like the helper is supporting the weight of their head alone? Are they? It looks very uncomfortable for the helper (and every one watching).

-Mary Mowder
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Jan 2, 2011 12:31AM)
Yes, they are having to hold their head up unsupported. I agree with you, Mary.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jan 2, 2011 06:28PM)
Are there any US dealers presently handling the European Chair Suspension?

Dan.
Message: Posted by: Jay Ward (Jan 2, 2011 09:49PM)
In the past, http://www.hocus-pocus.com has carried it. I just checked and did not see it on the site. But it might be worth a phone call to see if it will be back in stock.
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jan 4, 2011 06:05PM)
How do you all transport your chair suspensions? With my prior version, I had an industrial type cloth bag that would hold everything for transport. I includedthe bagwhen I sold my chairs. Is there something else commercially avaialble?

Thanks!
Dan.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Jan 5, 2011 06:35PM)
Mary and James: That is what is a misconseption with the chair suspension illusion. There is no reaosn to have the person or child holding their head out straight. In fact, I gently have them lay their head back and down naturally. It is not akward nor does it hurt. It is a natural position and a calming factor. There is also no tension this way.

Hope this helps.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jan 6, 2011 05:59AM)
Matt Fore uses a small stand for the adult to lay their head on. That is the most comfortable way for adults. That is what I was thinking about adding to my Chair Suspension.
Message: Posted by: A.HOUDINI (Feb 22, 2011 08:11AM)
The best one made is by MAK the way to solve all the problems is handeling,the child should be no older than eight years old and placed on there side not on thier back. This way they are comfortable and part of the performance and it makes for better photo ops,
Here is how I perform it http://www.youtube.com/embed/5pS1lVgU5Q0

If your levitating someone larger go to a larger prop!!! this one is for Kiddies. Use a Walter Blainey suspension or go to even the way better GAMOLO levitation used by Siegfried & Roy for 30 Years, that will levitate a 500 puond TIGER.i hope this is helpful.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Feb 22, 2011 10:57AM)
Ok this is just a pet peeve from a guy who knows and loves this illusion more then anything. lol

DO NOT EVER BUILD A CONTRAPTION OR EXTENTION ON YOUR CHAIR SUSPENSION SO THEIR HEAD CAN LAY ON IT!!!!

There I have said it. lol If you do this, you are defeating the entire premise of the illusion. It not only looks wrong, but it is totally not needed in the first place.

What we must remember is this is a "suspension" and not a levitation. In a suspension, the person is suspended at some point of the body. For example the broom suspension there is the support of the body under the arms. In the chair suspension, the proper illusion is that the helper is suspended totally outward from the point in their neck.

This is a proper position and sells the illusion. If you ad an extension onto the the illusion for them to lay their head, you kill this illusion. Not only that, but the audience sees this extension and realizes it is totally unatural. It is supposed to be 2 chairs and a board. Why would you have some funny attachment on the chair? it's not logical in their minds.

Arthur: thanks for sharing the video. This is nto a personal attack on you by any means at all. I just must say that I would never perform the chair suspension with the child on their side as you have presented it. It also is not the proper illusion and takes away from the power of it.

Also, doing it sideways you can only do it if the child is your own hlper and has been properly trained by you. You would never get away with this positioning if you had to use the birthday child. The reason is a simple one. The position is not comfortable and it is also not stable. A child on their side will tend to want to rock or move in pisitoon through out the illusion.

Also, if you have a child on their side, they are facing the audience. They will indeed want to keep their eyes open and watch the audience. This makes for an awkwardness because the child will want to move. The child's hand is also in the wrong place. The child's hand is touuching the board. if you placed a birthdya child in this position, the child will naturally hold on to the board you are trying to remove simply out of fear.

The biggest mistake I see is that you have HUGE sag in the illusion. there should be no sag at all if the positioning of the assistant is done properly. The child is too far forward. Thw weight distribution should be such that the child is much father up towards the anchorage chair. by doing this the weight distribution is proper and you get no sag at all.

I am not saying this to get anyone mad. I just say it because I want to be sure that folks get the most out of this illusion by performing it correctly. If you do, you will get much bigger reactions with less problems.

I know this is a very small photo and I apologize for it. however, you will see a large and older child on the suspension but also you will notice there is no sag at all. The child is 100% starait out. I achieve this simply through proper positioning.
Message: Posted by: francisngkl (Feb 22, 2011 11:37AM)
Hi Kyle, I am looking at getting one, not sure if it's safe for preschool children; and the photo shows the audience sitting position, looking at the chair, is there an angle issue?
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Feb 22, 2011 12:31PM)
Francis: You would not want to perform this with anyone under the age of 5. However anyone around 5 and up you can do this with without too much of an issue. The audience sees nothing if set up properly. I cover off on a lot of this in my cheir suspension ebook as well as tips and techniques for set up and positoning etc.

One thing I do is that I angle the anchorage chair away from the audience just a bit. My Lefler table and the chair suspension form a sort of "v" formation. Also, you will notice the positioning of the child's head. it hangs down naturally as it should. because of this, this also helps hide the gimmick completely.

http://kpmagicproducts.com/Chairs.html?40b408e8

If you have any questions at all, please let me know. I would be happy to go over anything with you. It is a great illusion to add to any children's show and adds greta value.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: francisngkl (Feb 22, 2011 12:51PM)
Thank you so mich Kyle.
Francis
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Feb 22, 2011 01:07PM)
Francis: My pleasure. If you or anyone has any questions at all, please let me know. I am always eager to help anyone with this.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jul 11, 2011 09:00PM)
I have now been using the new MAK Chair Suspension Deluxe in shows for about 6 months and can comfortably say that this is, by far, a significant improvement over the previous model. I have had no difficulty presenting this and have not experienced any sag when the chair is removed. I also seem to have comfortable latitude in the child's position without worry of carefully balancing them before removing the board. I do not have any experience with the European model to offer any comparison there.

The take home is that this has performed well over 6 months of active use.

Dan.
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Jul 16, 2011 04:34PM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-02 01:31, JamesinLA wrote:
Yes, they are having to hold their head up unsupported. I agree with you, Mary.

[/quote]
That's why I use the old Abbott's Chair Suspension. The board remains in place and there's no need for a suspicious cloth. They get head support from the board.

The trouble with the old Abbott's version is that it requires that stops be installed in the chairs to make the illusion usable. Otherwise, the board and chairs are out of alignment.

I feel pain just watching most chair suspensions being presented, with the volunteer's head hanging backwards.
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jul 16, 2011 07:02PM)
Alan ... Thanks for your insights. I am very happy as I don't have any worry about having the kids head dangling with this new MAK. I just performed it twice today and continue to notice my comfort at a whole new level. It does seem a lot heavy to carry but it is a trade off that I am happy to make.

Dan.
Message: Posted by: bowers (Nov 4, 2011 08:38PM)
Does this have to be pre setup or can you set it up in front of your audience? I'm taking about the regular maker version.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 5, 2011 08:29AM)
It does not have to be pre set up at all. I personally prefer to preset it up as it 1) looks more natural because they see it the entire show and so when I get to it, it does not look like anything new or different to them and 2) it makes it so much easier to get into the illusion knowing it is set right and secure and safe.

If you are going to set it up during the show, you MUST practice it a lot and make sure that you 1) cover your angles and the gimmick 2) you do it with ease so it looks natural and not like you are trying too hard to attach something and 3) you simply MUST make sure it is connected correctly and your safety checks are all met.

This can be done easily, but you have to work and practice it until it becomes smooth and a natural movement in the set up. It is NOt something you want to do for the first time at your first gig with it.

The biggest thing with the chair illusion is simply understanding it well enough to ensure safety at all times. never rush into it simply because you feel you have to. Study it and understand it and it can be a very great illusion that adds value to your show.

As most know, I love the illusion and perform it hundreds of times every year. it is why I wrote a book on the subject so as to help others with the illusion and learning skills and technique for performing it correctly.

If anyone has any questions, PLEASE let me know.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: bowers (Nov 5, 2011 09:05AM)
Thanks so much Kyle. If I were using this just for kids shows, would the magic maks regular version be alright, or would I need the deluxe model?
todd
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 5, 2011 10:21AM)
Yes, if you are doing just kids shows and using only a child helper, that regular version is more then fine. it would be all you need. I do it with a child all the time, works great and totally a value add to all my shows.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Nov 5, 2011 10:54AM)
Kyle,

You appear to have the same chair suspension as I do. Do you have any susgesions on how to transport it? I have a nice bag but the long board won't fit in it. I know you perform it hundreds of times a year, so you must have a method to keeping it damage free.

BTW, Happy Birthday again!
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 5, 2011 11:01AM)
Hi Ken,

I actually have my vehicle (Toyota highlander) set up so the back seats are always down. There is space between the front seat and back seat area that the entire thing fits right into. It is protected and works great for me. Now another idea people utilize is to get a keyboard case from a music store and buy one at a size that will fit the chair suspension. This usually works pretty well also.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: bowers (Nov 5, 2011 12:42PM)
Thanks so much for the advice and help on this matter Kyle. I will be buying this effect for my shows. You are right it will add value to my show.
Message: Posted by: snowpuppy (Nov 5, 2011 01:48PM)
I use two flat nylon cargo straps,..lay them out on the floor,place the two chairs one atop the other with the tops of the chairs at oposite ends on the straps,then the board with the "secret part facing" towards the floor over the top of one of the chairs and tighten up the straps.You can pick up the whole thing as one unit.If you position the Drape correctly,knowone will see the gimmick during transportation.Mike
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 5, 2011 02:09PM)
Bowers: You are most welcome. Let me know how I can be of further help. I have an ebook out all on the chair suspension illusion. it might help you out a lot and give you some better insight. You can read up on it at Http://www.kpmagicproducts.com

Let me know how I can be of help to you with this illusion.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: bowers (Nov 5, 2011 04:21PM)
Thanks kyle
I just purchased the mak model version.
do you know if it comes with decent instructions.
I will be checking your ebook out.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 5, 2011 05:21PM)
Bowers: I am not sure what instructions it comes with these days. A large part why I wrote my ebook on the chair suspension was simply because 1) the instructions I got were a joke and 2) I could never find any information on it covering set up, breakdown, how to work it, routine it etc. This is why I studied it myself, researched it and wrote the ebook for a friend and then for others to utilize.

Let me know if you have any questions on the illusion at all. I can certainly get started working with you on basic principles and ideas for it etc. it would my pleasure to do so.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: bowers (Nov 5, 2011 09:06PM)
Kyle thanks again for you help. I'll probably pm you after I receive this and look it over. I'm very excited about having this for my shows thanks again.
todd
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 5, 2011 09:18PM)
Todd: My pleasure my friend. Please let me know how I can help and if you have or want any information on my ebook for it.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 7, 2011 05:14AM)
[quote]DO NOT EVER BUILD A CONTRAPTION... SO THEIR HEAD CAN LAY ON IT!!!! [/quote]
Wow, this is the first time I've ever disagreed with my friend Kyle! I want to say we have a different opinion on a head rest.

I have had kids afraid and reluctant to let their head sag, I've also had instances where they were off center ever so slightly because of this hang over center line balancing tilting the illusion (twice: but my foot held the unit steady). For me I have a tiny head rest which does not take away from the effect for the kids. It still wows them and makes me feel more comfortable about the balance distance overhang.

It is small enough to be hidden by the child's hair, it takes nothing away from the illusion, and the child feels safer with it. To me this is more important than one ADULT person saying they know how the trick is done. DUH, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure how this illusion is done for an adult. For the kids, it always amazes them.

Both Kyle and I love this chair suspension and I have a stage version which allows me to remove the second chair using another illusion prop.

As with all illusions, each must tweet it to make it suit them and their routines.

I also added a small bracket which holds the board in place so the first applause is after the chair is removed and the board is held in place. The second applause is after the board is removed. (The Kodak Moment) And, the third applause if for the child after the illusion.

-Dennis

Posted: Nov 7, 2011 6:30am
What I didn't like about the Abbott's version video on page one is:

1. The distance the assistant was hanging over.
2. There was no sag in the cloth like Mak Magic giving the impression of the bottom of the person.
3. Obviously the Price!
4. The unit weight factor. (We had many discussion on Sound Systems and weight. 50 lbs up a flight of stairs, in and out several times a day, etc., is exhausting especially for us older magicians.)
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 7, 2011 11:20AM)
Well we certainly can agree to disagree on this one my friend. =) This is one area that I am pretty adamant about. I know folks think they need a head rest and that is solves a problem. The fact is that a head rest is never needed if the illusion is performed correctly and with the proper set up, proper positioning and proper patter. Let me clarify why in regards to my strong opinion aginst the usage of a head rest.

I perform this illusion literally hundreds of times every single year over the past 10 years or more. I probably perform this more then anything else I own. In all of those shows, I have not had a single kid complain about the head being a problem at all. The reason behind this is because of how I present the illusion, my routining and the psychology that is involved.

Too many entertainers THINK that the child will be uncomfortable and so they go the route of a head piece thinking they are doing a favor. Instead they are killing the look and feel of how the illusion is supposed to come across.

Another problem many performers have is that their patter is worded in such a way that it evokes a negative response in the child. Many folks will state things like, “don’t be scared. Don’t be nervous. Are you ok?” These types of patter gets the child thinking that maybe somehting is wrong or that they should feel that way. It is almost like telling a child not to touch a light switch. If you tell them not to, they tend to want to. So I am mindful of my patter and what I say to th e child because it does make a huge difference.

If any child is off center or not in the proper positioning, NEVER go on with the illusion. Off center and unproper positioning should never happen. This should always be a part of the performers safety checks and the understanding of balance points. If it is not correct, make sure to fix it before proceeding with the illusion.

The head rest just goes against how the illusion is supposed to be presented. This is a suspension and many folks forget that. In a suspension the audience needs to see and feel like the person is suspended at some point. In the broom suspension illusion, that point is the arm pit. On the chairs, that point should be the neck of the child. With the head hanging gently down, this sells the illusion properly. It gives the natural appearance of the point at which the child is being suspended.

Not only does this look proper, but it is the way the original illusion was designed. It just looks more natural and sells better to an audience. The head rest idea (as nice as it is to think you are helping yourself and the helper) takes away form the power of the illusion. It just looks awkward.

With the head hanging gently down, it not only makes for a better illusion, but it serves a purpose. The head hanging gently hides the gimmick for you. This allows you a much wider angle range. In fact I can do it surrounded by doing it this way if I had to.

The biggest concern is that the child is hurting. This is not the case at all. Children are used to having their heads like this. Am not forcing it down or causing them pain by doing so. It gently hangs over naturally and comfortably. It also keeps them more steady, and helps them to not look upwards at what is going on. Kids on the playground have their heads like this all the time. They are also not in this position for anything more then a minute tops. It also gives the proper appearance that the helper has been magically hypnotized or is in a magical state of rest. With the head rest, their is much too much a feeling of tension.

The other problem with head rests of any type, shape and size is that they can be easily seen. The audience sees it from the start and it looks unnatural. It should be 2 chairs and a board and a cloth. Nothing more and nothing less. A head rest seen by the audience makes them question it. Why is it there and what does it do? It makes the illusion look more like a magic prop.

The other problem is that with the head on the rest, even during presentation, the audience can clearly see the head rest. No matter how you try and hide it, it can still be seen. The audience knows it is still there. They saw it at the beginning and know the head can not stay out like that without it. They also can see upwards as most are seated. With the head hanging naturally downward, this covers this angle very well.

Actually I have adults amazed at this illusion. No lie. They freak out about it. The reason once again is in presentation and proper handling of the illusion. When done well, it really can and does fool adults. Never downplay that point.

I agree in that every performer must tweak things to their desire. The problem is that there is also a right and wrong way of presenting an illusion. In my humble opinion, the head rest is a not needed item that hurts the illusion from being as powerful as it can be.

Just my opinions is all and certainly not meant as an attack on my good friend dennis or anyone. Just something I feel strong about is all. =)

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 7, 2011 02:08PM)
Kyle, I do not take offense to your comment at all. As I said we just have this one difference in opinion.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 7, 2011 02:29PM)
Not a problem at all my friend. =) Hope what you stated and what I statd gets folks thinking.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: bowers (Nov 9, 2011 07:40PM)
Ha kyle
got my mak chair suspension today. very nice indeed.made very well also. even the paint job is good.im going to be busy this weekend with shows.but next week I'm going to start practicing with it.let my grandson help me out with this one.but the
instructions not so great.ill be ordering your ebook next week also.thanks again for your help.
your friend todd
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 11, 2011 11:09AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-07 06:14, Dennis Michael wrote:
[quote]DO NOT EVER BUILD A CONTRAPTION... SO THEIR HEAD CAN LAY ON IT!!!! [/quote]

Wow, this is the first time I've ever disagreed with my friend Kyle! I want to say we have a different opinion on a head rest.
[/quote]
This is the first time I am going to have to agree with my friend Dennis. Yes I do agree with you Dennis. But I would consider it for adults. After I started using my adult version, I noticed a lot of adults had a strain on there neck. I still noticed the strain even when some of the older adults got off. I can see why Matt Fore uses a head rest for the adults. I am going to have one made so I can use it for recommended adults.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 15, 2011 07:24PM)
Once again, the usage of a head rest goes against the nature of the illusion. Not trying to be mean here or anything. just trying to prove a strong point. The head rest of any sort defies the point of the illusion. it makes the illusion not play nearly as well and makes it look awkward at best.

No matter how small the head rest is, the audience will see it at the beginning of the illusion and so they will no the head is still resting on something during the illusion itself. This takes away from the visual effect and power the illusion can have.

Also, there is no great way of hiding the headrest form the audience. They will just see it. The head rest also causes focus exactly in the area you do NOT want to have focus on. It brings the eyes and attention to the "hot" area instead of rediretcing that focus away from it.

Just my opinion is all but the usage of a head rest on this illusion (whether for kids or adults) just takes away from the illusion as a whole.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Michael Messing (Nov 18, 2011 06:20PM)
Kyle, as this came up in the other thread too, I have to say I totally agree with you. It doesn't look right to have the head supported and it really isn't uncomfortable on the assistant if their properly lined up on the suspension. My adult female assistants were the ones that confirmed that when I put them on two different models of chair suspensions I had. (Sandy Rhoades model and European Chair Suspension.)

Michael
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 18, 2011 07:38PM)
Michael: Yep I am adament about this. It simply does not look right with using any form of head rest and goes against the entire nature of what makes that chair suspension so deceptive and entertaining.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 19, 2011 06:00AM)
The cool thing about a head rest, you have the option to use it or not.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 19, 2011 07:07AM)
Yes you do have the option, but it still (in my opinion) doesn't make it correct.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 19, 2011 07:30AM)
Dennis, when kyle gets our age he will know more about what we are talking about.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 19, 2011 08:37AM)
Mike: No disrespect to you or Dennis at all. you guiys I highly respect and are good friends. I just strongly feel (from experience) that using a head rest in any way fior the chair suspension illusion not only kills the illusion but actually goes against what the illusion is supposed to look like to the audience. it just is not needed is all.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Michael Messing (Nov 19, 2011 08:54AM)
I agree with Kyle. As soon as you put something under the head, it tips off the audience how the effect works. The head being allowed to hang freely makes it look like everything is completely unsupported.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Nov 19, 2011 02:06PM)
I agree with Kyle, it is not needed, however, I prefer to use it.

Kyle is one of the good guys, who does know what he is talking about. I just don't put as much weight on the secret, as I do on the presentation and how I feel about the way I perform it. It also works well when I remove the other chair and levitate the assistant.

I know Kyles method can't do that. (It a stage illusion when I do this)
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 19, 2011 05:47PM)
Right but then it is not a chair suspension at all. You change it into a levitation. Nothing wrong with this because it is fun and exciting for your audiences. However, if you levitate the child, then the illusion is not a suspension at all. Just made to look like one at the start.

Thanks for the great discussion here. I am really enjoying this. The reason I wrote the chair suspension ebook was simply to make sure that folks performing this illusion have tips, techniques and safety ideas to be able to read so that can make a better and informed decision when purchasing and working with the illusion. If it helps even one person, then I am happy. =)

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 19, 2011 11:29PM)
I see Kyle is strong about not changing his mind. The only one who can get him to change his mind is Dave.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 20, 2011 06:38AM)
Mike: Love ya brother but I know this illusion more then anything I own. Use of a head rest is just not correct and ruins the illusion. It really is as simple as that. Not trying to be mean or evil or hurt anyone. Just making a point is all. =)

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 20, 2011 08:37AM)
How about if you were going to suspend Dave?
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 20, 2011 09:03AM)
Then I would first use a Bill Smith model (made precisely for usage with adults). I would then preselect him ahead of time and let him know the illusion and what will happen. I then would still have his shoulders parallel to the anhcorage chair and his head hanging gently off the side. this combination work work perfectly, look as it should and get great reactions without the risk of safety.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 20, 2011 10:14AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-20 10:03, magic4u02 wrote:
I then would still have his shoulders parallel to the anhcorage chair and his head hanging gently off the side.
[/quote]
I never seen someone with their head hanging off the side before. I would consider that to be dangerous because of the crimp in their neck.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 20, 2011 11:48AM)
If you have not seen the illusion performed with the head hanging gently down, then that magician is simply performing the illusion wrong. This happens so many times. it is one reaosn why I researched the illusion and wrote the book on it. Too many magicians are not performing the illusion correctly. The position does not hurt at all.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 20, 2011 03:43PM)
The statement that "The head being allowed to hang freely makes it look like everything is completely unsupported" doesn't bear close scrutiny in my opinion. The whole point of the illusion is that the human body is being magically "supported" or "suspended." If the rest of the body is being acted upon by a magical force that causes it to be suspended, then why isn't the head also similarly "suspended?" Does the magic stop at the neck?

If the body were "really" suspended, the whole body would be suspended.

Jim
Message: Posted by: pbj100 (Nov 20, 2011 03:46PM)
I have not had a single kid complain about the head being a problem at all.

Hi,
do you really think a young child is going to complain in the middle of the show and in front of thier friends.

personaly I would never perform the chair suspension for the following reasons all of which I have seen happen to other magicians.

1. kids get scared and want to get off
2. kids move causing the thing to tip and the kid slide down the plank to the floor thank god the board did not disengage from the chair

I know you can reduce the risks of this happening but even if you are doing this thousands of times every year ....it only has to tip once and hurt a child .....maybe you are happy to take a chance with a childs safety ...but not me thank you I could not.
phil
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 20, 2011 03:51PM)
Have to disagree on that one. Obviously nothing personal mind you. In a suspension the body is suspended at a point. The broom suspension for example is the arm pit. It would be silly to have the arm extended outwards with the rest of the body. In the chair suspension, it looks more natural to have the body suspended outward. the head hanging naturally downward just adds to the natural look of the illusion.

In the broom suspension, it is the arm that is down and hanging naturally. In the chair suspension it is the head that is held naturally downward. With the head held straight out and the body straight out causes 1) too much tension and simply doesn't look natural at all.

I may have to take some photos if I get a chance to. 1) with the head using a head rest support and 2) one with it naturally hanging down. even in a photo you can literally see what looks better to an audience.

Kyle

Posted: Nov 20, 2011 5:02pm
Phil: do I think a child will complain in the middle of a show? Absolutely. lol Not being mean here at all but yes they will. kids will be kids and they will flat out tell you if they are not comfortable with something. They do not heitate at all.

Your numbered statemnets are all valid. That is simply becaise SO many magicians perform this illusion wrong. They rush into it with no knowledge and they do not take safety tips in to account. You simply must study the illusion and learn to perform it correctly. if you do, it plays huge with no risk at all.

1) there is no reaosn for a child to get scared if you work the illusion properly with a good routine. I never use a child under age 5.

2) No reason for the kid to move. If you set it up right and have the child properly on the illusion, the child will not move. Also, the routine and the way in which you engage the child before placing them on the chairs is crucial. there is a right and wrong way to go about it.

I find offense to the statement "maybe you are happy to take a risk with a child's safety." Obviosuly you do not know me to well and that is ok. Anyone who knows me knows that safety of a child is absolutely the number 1 thing on my mind with every single routine I do. In fact the sole reason I even wrote my ebook was because of the safety issue and the lack of safety information that was NOt found anywhere or in any instructions.

I wrote the ebook and I talk so much about this illusion simply because I want magicians to know about safety issues and to perform the illusion 1) as it should be performed and 2) with safety #1 so as to not fear performing this.

if there is EVER a risk or if any safety measure does not get met, then the illusion is not performed. it is as simple as that.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 20, 2011 05:19PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-20 12:48, magic4u02 wrote:
If you have not seen the illusion performed with the head hanging gently down, then that magician is simply performing the illusion wrong. This happens so many times. it is one reaosn why I researched the illusion and wrote the book on it. Too many magicians are not performing the illusion correctly. The position does not hurt at all.

Kyle
[/quote]
I perform it a lot myself where the head is hanging down on the end, but never like you mentioned from the side.
[quote]
On 2011-11-20 10:03, magic4u02 wrote:
I then would still have his shoulders parallel to the anhcorage chair and his head hanging gently off the side.
[/quote]
Kyle, try keeping the head centered going straight down the back end. If you have the individual turn their neck to have the head hanging off the side, everything will be off balance. Try performing it as the pictures show, to where the head is down on the end. If you want more help on that I would be glad to support you.
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 20, 2011 05:21PM)
Kyle,
I understand the comparision you are making re: the chair suspension and the broom suspension. (And I recall you have both illusions.) However, I believe that isn't a valid comparsion for a couple of reasons.

In the broom suspension, the suspension point is UNDER the arm. That makes it physically impossible for that arm to join the body in its sideways suspension. That perhaps was a clever way to achieve a natural look to having the arm seperated from the suspended body.

However, in the chair suspension, there is nothing hampering the head from joining the body in its suspended attitude as there is in the broom suspension.

Also, the proof is in the concept itself. The illusion is supposed to be that a body is suspended at a particular point.
You state that the logic of the illusion is that the body is only susposed to be suspended on one side of the suspension point but not on the other side. We could test the logic of that statement by proposing a mental test: say we moved the point to the small of the back. Would then it be logical for the the part of the body to the right of the suspension point to be magically suspended, and the rest of the body to the left of the suspension point to not be suspended?

I would argue it would not. So I would argue that the chair suspension illusion would be strenthened if the head also appeared suspended WITHOUT any apparent suport.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 20, 2011 05:35PM)
Jim, you can't argue with Kyle about the Chair Suspension. If everything is not done his way, it is done wrong. Am I right Kyle? Kyle is the only Chair Suspension king in the world. Am I right Kyle? Everyone performs the Chair Suspension dangerously unless they buy his book and do exactly as he mentions. Am I right Kyle? I saw Jay performing his Elite Chair Suspension on his video. I saw no step as Kyle mentioned in his e-book. So Jay must not be doing it in a safe manner. Am I right kyle.
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 20, 2011 05:39PM)
Another thing about the comparsion of the broom suspension is that we must remember that the body and that arm in question--the arm which you say does not achieve suspension with the rest of the body--that arm and the entire body IS suspended in the vertical position in the broom suspension. We must understand the broom suspension--as I know you do especially since you have one--that a magical effect is produced just by having the body "suspended" in an upright position by TWO BROOMS. Since when can the bristles of two brooms hold the weight of a human body. Then one broom is removed and the body is suspended in a vertical position by one broom under the arm and the arm in quesiton is also in a vertical position. That alone is a magical effect. The only reason the already suspended arm does not join the body is because it is physically blocked from doing so because of the suspension point is under the arm. That is why it looks logical to an audience for that arm not to go horizontal with the rest of the body in that last phase of the effect.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 20, 2011 05:44PM)
Just give him a minute Jim. I am sure Kyle will be back with some answers.

The only one who can have Kyle change his mind is Dave. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=175962&forum=17&start=60 Check out when Kyle post "my jet set legs do not lock or spring to a locked position" Later he post "I would like to apologize here. Actually I got my set back out again when I did the New years Eve event. They do indeed snap into place. I just never realized or had forgotten that they did."
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 20, 2011 05:57PM)
Mike: sorry my friend. I think we are both doing the same thing. It was confusion in the terminology. Sorry about that. What I meant was not the side. The head hangs naturally off the end of the board where the chair is. Sorry for the confusion. So we are both doing the same thing. =)

James: I understand where you are coming from. I really do and I thank you for your thoughts. The problem is, it simply doesn't look right. It looks awkward to an audience. The other problem you have is one of logistics. The idea is that there are 2 chairs and a board laying on those chairs. How does one logically explain the head rest attached to the board? It looks awkward right form the start.

If one was to use a headrest of any kind (and I personally would not) then you would have to make it look logical to an audience. The reason the board does is because the audience sees the board and that board is what is holding the child up. The board is seen to be removed and so how is the child suspended...magic. So if we are to use any sort of head rest, you would need to address this issue.

Mike: there is no reason to yell at me or to trash talk me. We are peers, fellow magicians and friends. I am not making fun of you are blaming you or yelling at you. I am simply having a discussion. nothing more. I am sorry if you felt I was attacking you. That is not the case at all. I am merely expressing a strong opinion as we all are here and I respect everyone for that.

Jim: I can agree with you on the broom suspension. However with the head rest idea, this can be done. The problem is that I have not once seen it utilized and addressed correctly.

so let us think about this as peers, friends and fellow magicians. let us say we want to utilize a head rest of some sort. Then how would we use one to make it logical for the audience and to not make iot take away from the illusions power?

As I see it there are several key things that would need to be addressed and solved for the head rest to work properly. Let us look at them and talk about them.

1) the head rest needs to look and feel logical when the audience looks at it on stage before anyone is placed on it. It has to make sense to them for it being there. Without the head rest we have 2 chairs and a board resting lightly on top. So how do we then create a head rest so that it looks logical and does not look "funny"? I have my own answer for this and will share it in a few.

2) ok so say we solve the logical look and feel for the head rest so the audience buys into it. How then do we tell the audience that the head rest they saw in the beginning is NOT supporting the childs head at the magical moment? in my mind there has to look to the audience that there WAS a support holding the head but now we removed that support and the child's head is magically staying straight.

3) we then have to solve the problem of hiding the head rest gimmick as well as the illusion gimmick from view. With the head up, this becomes a more of a challenge as it tends to be more in plain view.

Now this is not to say that the head rest can't be used. It is saying that should we use one, the top 3 things have to be solved in my mind. Wouldn't you all agree? I would think we would need to solve each of these to have a head rest look and work correctly.

Personally I think it can be solved. I just have never seen it solved yet so far. every head rest I have seen has never solved these issues and so hence looks bad in performance. If one were to really study the above 3 ideas and solve for each of them, then you would have a head rest that would and could work.

I look forward to your thoughts my friends. but please, I am not attacking anyone. I am merely having an open discussion with you all as I do respect your thoughts as I always have.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 20, 2011 06:04PM)
Don't take it serious Kyle. I was not yelling. =)
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 20, 2011 06:15PM)
No problem bro. We're good. Just wanted to make sure folks realized I am not personally attacking or yelling at anyone. That is just not my style at all. =)

Kyle
Message: Posted by: pbj100 (Nov 20, 2011 06:27PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-20 17:02, magic4u02 wrote:
Phil: do I think a child will complain in the middle of a show? Absolutely. lol Not being mean here at all but yes they will. kids will be kids and they will flat out tell you if they are not comfortable with something. They do not heitate at all.

Kyle
some will many many wont kids will not. yes they are quick to speak their mind if they think it will make them look good amongst their peers. but not if likein this case they would look scared or weak.


Your numbered statements are all valid. That is simply because SO many magicians perform this illusion wrong. They rush into it with no knowledge and they do not take safety tips in to account. You simply must study the illusion and learn to perform it correctly. if you do, it plays huge with no risk at all.

1) there is no reason for a child to get scared if you work the illusion properly with a good routine. I never use a child under age 5.

.......a child simply does not need a logical reason to move

2) No reason for the kid to move. If you set it up right and have the child properly on the illusion, the child will not move. Also, the routine and the way in which you engage the child before placing them on the chairs is crucial. there is a right and wrong way to go about it.

.....How about the child that wants to see for themselves what is happening they sit up to look. no one thinks it will happen to them but one day for all the routining it could happen to you

I find offense to the statement "maybe you are happy to take a risk with a child's safety." Obviosuly you do not know me to well and that is ok. Anyone who knows me knows that safety of a child is absolutely the number 1 thing on my mind with every single routine I do. In fact the sole reason I even wrote my ebook was because of the safety issue and the lack of safety information that was NOt found anywhere or in any instructions.

I wrote the ebook and I talk so much about this illusion simply because I want magicians to know about safety issues and to perform the illusion 1) as it should be performed and 2) with safety #1 so as to not fear performing this.

if there is EVER a risk or if any safety measure does not get met, then the illusion is not performed. it is as simple as that.

Kyle
[/quote]
Kyle ,
I was not meaning to offend you but unless you strap them down you cannot be sure they will not sit up not 100% are you willing to risk even a 1% chance?
phil
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 20, 2011 06:49PM)
Phil: No worries my friend. I understand your reluctance. I do as most have it. However, there are ways in which to avoid this almost completely. I also have a safety check for this. It is not to say it would never happen, but in hundreds and hundreds of performances each year, this rarely happens if at all. Even if it does, I have a way in which to handle it as part of the routine itself so it is never an issue for me.

Harbin himself has a great routine and a wonderful way of presenting this.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Michael Messing (Nov 20, 2011 08:50PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-20 16:46, pbj100 wrote:
...I would never perform the chair suspension for the following reasons all of which I have seen happen to other magicians.

1. kids get scared and want to get off
2. kids move causing the thing to tip and the kid slide down the plank to the floor thank god the board did not disengage from the chair

I know you can reduce the risks of this happening but even if you are doing this thousands of times every year ....it only has to tip once and hurt a child .....maybe you are happy to take a chance with a childs safety ...but not me thank you I could not.
phil
[/quote]

Phil, I can only speak of my experience with the chair suspension. First off, I have never used the Jim Sommers' version or the original plastic chair Mak Version in a performance. One trial of it with my assistant was enough for me to say it is not sturdy enough. Yes, it can be done safely with children if done right but the odds of a problem are greater with a model that lightweight. That is why I bought and used an European Chair Suspension to use with children. It's much more solid and not nearly as likely to tip over. It is also the reason I just switched to Jay Leslie's Elite Chair Suspension (AKA Ultimate Chair Suspension) because it is even stronger and more steady.

I've never had a child try to jump off but, if they did, I would think it most likely is going to occur before the second chair has been removed because that's when they would first get uncomfortable. With the board in place and the second chair under the other end, there is almost no way to tip the chair over with one of the heavier duty models (European, Elite, Mephisto, Bill Smith, etc.) Once, they are in place, they can't see what's going on. That's why I have the parent take a photo after the second chair and board have been removed. The other kids may say he's floating but he can't see it so there's really nothing for them to get edgy about.

Second, you really have to understand who is not a good candidate for being put on a chair suspension. Some kids are a little nervous and you have to be a calming influence. Kyle works with his wife so she's able to assist him in making sure the child is calm. When I perform the chair suspension, I use the child's mom or an older sibling to help with the performance and that helps make sure the child is relaxed. This has never failed for me. The magician really does need to understand the psychology of working with a child with this illusion. (Kyle explains it well in his ebook.)

I will have to say, though, that I don't use the chair suspension with children 5 and under. For those kids, I prefer the Flying Carpet because I think it's a lot more comfortable for them. They're not lying down and they can see everybody. That's just my preference.
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 20, 2011 11:15PM)
First I want to say that Kyle has forgotten more about the chair suspension than I will ever know. I've only done the thing three times. From a pratical standpoint, Kyle is my source.
Having said that, I think this is a good discussion because this is magicians talking magic concepts etc.

Kyle,
I totally agree with your point that the if you're laying someone on a board at the start and their head is not on the board, then the head should hang down.

However, after the board is removed, from a purely magical conceptual basis, I think if it was real magic, I would then raise their head in my hands and the head should then remain comfortably "suspended" at the same angle as the body because the head along with the rest of the body is supposed to be supported by a magical force.

Jim
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 21, 2011 06:01AM)
Jim: Thank you my friend. I appreciate the kind words and I am glad we can have a cool discussion on how a head rets COULD be used and how it would have to be done to make logicla sense.

Your reasoning is a good one as you stated above. this does solve the logical nature that I mentioned above. the only problem with this is that if the method is having the helper hold their head out, then that is very hard to do and actually hurts the neck more then letting the neck hang down naturally. Not saying it can;t be done, Just saying that it would probably require a helper or assistant that has been trained by you.

This would work though and look magical and logical by nature and solve the fact that you would not need a head rest style gmiick or board. the thinking is rather nice. I just do not feel it would be easy to pull off with a child assistant or reguklar assistant from the audience that has not been trained by you first.

Great discussion. let us keep it this way and look at the 3 main ideas I expressed above for a head rest usage. if we are to utilize one, then these 3 problems need to be solved.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 21, 2011 09:06AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-20 18:35, Dynamike wrote:
Jim, you can't argue with Kyle about the Chair Suspension. If everything is not done his way, it is done wrong.
[/quote]
See Jim, I told you.

Kyle, if Jim does his Chair Suspension your way for now on will you lay off of him?
Message: Posted by: Michael Messing (Nov 21, 2011 09:57AM)
Hey, you know what - we're entitled to differing opinions. :) I agree with Kyle and you agree more with Jim and Denny. It's normal that people disagree. I would make a suggestion though. We're basing this on our views. Has anyone here done it both ways for the same group of non-magicians to see what they think? Ultimately, that's what matters most.

I will assume no one has done that (I haven't and I know that no one has indicated they polled audience members) so maybe someone can take a photo with an assistant with his/her head hanging down and then a second photo with his/her head being supported and ask non-magicians what they think.

If there's one thing I've learned in 38 years of doing magic it's that I don't see magic effects the same way a non-magician does. I've been caught off guard several times by what fooled them and what didn't.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Nov 21, 2011 10:14AM)
Mike: I am confused here. I thought your last words to me were "Don't take is seriously. I was not yelling =)". How am I supposed to take your last comment then? It seems much to much like a personal attack against me. Mike this is a discussion and nothing more or less. I am not attacking you or anyone else for that matter. I am simply stating an opinion. If you also read above, I am also sharing an idea FOR the usage of a head rest. I have even gone as far as saying that one could be used and opened it for discussion on how it could be utilized.

Michael: Thank you my friend. I appreciate it. Indeed I am not attacking anyone. I have an opinion and I am openly sharing ideas. To answer your question honestly, yes. Yes, I have tried numerous models and I have tried presenting this both ways. I did this in the research of my writing. I wanted to personally find out for myself the various ways to present it and what plays better for me.

So please folks understand I am simply open for discussion and thought and not attacks or fights with folks. Let us have a great talk about this and abut my idea of a head rest and how you could do it with one.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Michael Messing (Nov 21, 2011 10:33AM)
There you have it: Kyle has researched it and formed his opinion from the responses. Now, it's up to other to do the same thing for themselves if they don't buy it!

If you do so, please post back so we can compare notes.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 21, 2011 10:55AM)
Ok, Michael, I am going to put what I think is best, not from what I was told, but from my 15 years of experience. It depends on the individual and the Chair Suspension. I do want the audience to see me as a great entertainer, I want to put safety first. I am not going to risk a person of their safety to have everyone admire me.

I do not know how the gimmick support looks on all of the Chair Suspensions. I just know about the Mak and the Mephisto. But the Mak is easy noticeable. It is long and narrow. Since it is narrow, it has to be long for security. The Mak's board is made for shorter individuals. That is why children are used the most with that version.

Repeat, it depends on the Chair Suspension and the individual. I have two Chair Suspensions. Let us start with the Mak. I agree with Jim how it looks better to have the head raised. But the disadvantage to me is the gimmick can be seen from several angles if the individuals hair is not long enough. Not many times I heard from someone "I see that hook." If the individual's hair is long enough I feel comfortable with the individual raising their head. But I still focus on the individual's neck strength. If I notice a strain, I tell them to let their head down so they can rest.

The Mephisto has a long board. It is made for adults. The support gimmick is very short. But it is very wide. The fabric covers everything. There is no way it can be seen because of the fabric, and its shortness. Because of the width, it is safer if the individual is off balance, it will hold more secure than the Mak version. Because of the board's length, it is too long for a child, a teenager, no problem. I see so many old adults strain their neck. It looks as if a lot of blood pressure is rushing to their head. When I first saw Matt Fore do it with a headrest, it did not look good to me. But maybe I am thinking like a magician. It is a good chance the audience is still amazed if a head rest is used. I was thinking about bringing a head rest and use it only if the individual has a weak neck. So far I never used one, but at times when I saw an older individual get up, the audience is not giving me an applause, but they are focused on the noncomfort of the individual.

By putting it all together a professional magician will not do it one way with each individual. A professional will be flexible for all type of individuals. Of course it is harder for the professional, but he will know what he doing.

Sorry to steal your job Kyle. :)
[quote]
On 2011-11-21 11:14, magic4u02 wrote:
Mike: I am confused here. I thought your last words to me were "Don't take is seriously. I was not yelling =)". How am I supposed to take your last comment then? It seems much to much like a personal attack against me.
[/quote]
Are you saying I fooled The Great Kyle? Well thank you, I did not know I was that good of a magician. :)

Kyle, relax, I was kidding with those comments towards you. I know you are not attacking Jim. I bet I did not fool anyone else. :(

To those who are reading this, remember there is no one in this thread who is arguing. We are just putting our heads together before his next book is out. Am I right Kyle?

And Kyle, just call me Dynamike so I will not get your words mixed up with what you are telling Michael.
Message: Posted by: jnrussell (Dec 13, 2011 01:06PM)
I use the MAK Magic version, and purchased and read Kyle's e-book before buying the suspension. I had my granddaughter help me practice it, and all Kyle's tips were right on.

In performance, I preselect the child I want to use, talk to them, tell them what I'm going to do, and even show them the chair setup if possible.

I do the actual effect to music, and constantly reassure the child what is going on, how good they are doing, etc. Haven't had an issue with them moving or anything. And each time, the child has allowed their head to hang down freely... it's like its a natural position for them.

I put a couple velcro pieces on the drape, which allows it to fall naturally without opening, thus hiding any mechanism flash.

I like it a lot, and always get great audience reaction!
Message: Posted by: jay leslie (Dec 13, 2011 02:14PM)
How about a little logic?

If you want the spectator to be comfortable then you should use two extra rests for their arms and another big one for their feet - then - when you take the board away it's like they're laying on 4 headrests.... What could be more deceptive?

Seriously. If you examine the performance of the Scimitar Suspension or the broom suspension THE AUDIENCE NEVER APPLAUDS WHEN THERE ARE TWO BLADES OR TWO BROOMS. They only applauds when you are down-to one blade or broom - ever. ALL suspensions should have just one contact point otherwise it's not a suspension it's a balancing act.

Look at your promotional photos and tell me that TWO points of contact look better then one. (Or do you photoshop the pole?)

Respectfully


Note to: jnrussell :I put Velcro to stop mechanical flash" Something's wrong if the cloth doesn't hide everything, on it's own.
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Dec 13, 2011 03:11PM)
Thanks for the kind words in regards to the ebook. It is much appreciated. It was written to help and give tips and guidance on the illusion for anyone who can gain from it.

Jay: Amen to your post. I applaud you. =)
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Dec 14, 2011 11:37AM)
The thread has been active for a year now and the original poster’s question has not really been discussed.

“Does anyone have any experience with the newer MAK Steel Chair Suspension Deluxe? ( http://www.abbottmagic.com/Chair-Suspension-Deluxe-STEEL-p0704.htm ) Is this simply an excuse to raise the price or does it really have some enhancements? How does this compare with the Mephisto version? My apology if this has been previously discussed as I could not find anything when searching.

Thanks!!
Dan.”

I am thinking of getting one, so,Let’s not hang our heads on this thread!!!!!!

Can anyone answer the question?
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Dec 14, 2011 06:18PM)
Howie,

I went ahead and ordered one not long after my original post. I had lot's of experience with the older MAK Chair which I liked, but didn't love, due to the occassional sag when removing the board. This new version works nicely with kids who might not be perfectly centered on the board and larger kids. I must admit that I have not tried it with an adult. There is definitely a noticable difference in the steel suspension and I am happy with it. It also is heavier the carry but nothing rediculous. I saw that Jay Leslie now has a new model available which looks very appealing but presently I am quite happy.

Dan.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Dec 14, 2011 06:45PM)
Dan;

Thanks for the answer; I am going to take your advice and buy the deluxe suspension

Buzz
Message: Posted by: danfreed (Dec 14, 2011 07:09PM)
A little off topic, but I was thinking of getting a chair suspension. I've never seen it done in person, and I wasn't sure how well it "played" with an audience so I asked a friend who used to do it a lot. He said he stopped doing it because he thought the audience were able to guess the method (the physics) too easily. I wouldn't know, and I know you guys all like/love the trick, so I thought I'd see what you have to say. He also said something about the gimmick getting bent over time - so is that an issue and can it be fixed? Also, what brand/model is best if you are just doing it for kids? I want to stick around $500ish. I know many people like the Mak, but I used to know those guys at Mak when I lived in Columbus, I've been to their warehouse many times, and they were not an impressive bunch, and I felt the stuff they made wasn't so hot. But I know nothing about their chairs.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Dec 14, 2011 09:21PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-14 19:18, Amazing Magic Co wrote:
Howie,

I went ahead and ordered one not long after my original post. I had lot's of experience with the older MAK Chair which I liked, but didn't love, due to the occassional sag when removing the board. This new version works nicely with kids who might not be perfectly centered on the board and larger kids.
[/quote]
Are both gimmicks identical?
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Dec 14, 2011 10:10PM)
I believe they are with more steel support on the newer version.

Dan.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Dec 15, 2011 03:26AM)
I believe Elite's and Mak's are identical too. It seems like all chair suspensions gimmicks are the same except for Abbotts and the Mephisto Version.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Dec 15, 2011 06:52AM)
Dynamike;

I am looking at your Avatar and notice that the chair suspension in the photo is holding up your assistant; I also notice that nothing on your assistant is sagging, as well as in the photo she looks extraordinarily firm, and extremely miraculous.

I am wondering what brand of suspension you use and if the suspension sags when you remove the chair.

Buzz
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Dec 15, 2011 08:26AM)
Good one man. [url=http://www.sherv.net/lmao-emoticon-1386.html][img]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/lmao.gif[/img][/url]
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Dec 15, 2011 09:45AM)
I understand Kyle is planning to revise and expand the suspension eBook; if he included the prevention of sagging of the assistant it would sell very well.

Kyle if you need assistance on researching the prevention of sagging of the assistant section of your book, PM me
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Dec 15, 2011 12:43PM)
Actually I already do touch base on the premise of sagging on the chair suspension and how to adjust accordingly to solve for it. I talk about it in the ebook. However, I do plan on covering off on this in much more detail as well as photos and such when I start to work on my volume 2.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: jay leslie (Dec 15, 2011 07:09PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 04:26, Dynamike wrote:
I believe Elite's and Mak's are identical too. It seems like all chair suspensions gimmicks are the same except for Abbott's and the Mephisto Version.
[/quote]
No. There are many differences. But to the casual observer they may look the same.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Dec 15, 2011 07:16PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 13:43, magic4u02 wrote:
Actually I already do touch base on the premise of sagging on the chair suspension and how to adjust accordingly to solve for it. I talk about it in the ebook. However, I do plan on covering off on this in much more detail as well as photos and such when I start to work on my volume 2.

Kyle
[/quote]
Kyle, wake up!!!

I want to help with preventing the sagging of the female assistant, not the assistant on the suspension LOL
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Dec 15, 2011 08:26PM)
Lol must be the pain medication talking.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jan 12, 2012 02:04PM)
Since starting this thread a little over one year ago, I made the switch and really liked my MAK Steel Chair Suspension .... that is right until I tried Jay Leslie's Elite Chair Suspension. I have to admit that I was a little skeptical but was I wrong. So far this has exceeded my expectations and really sets a new standard. Jay needs to be commended as he has made some significant engineering improvements that are not noticeable to the spectator as follows:

1) This is unbelievably sturdy and I seriously doubt sagging would even be a concern. Jay asserts that he tests each unit made by sitting on it. There is no question this is quite stable, not only in its weight displacement, but averts any swaying should the volunteer move. I have no doubt this would support an adult but I haven’t tried it yet.

2) This is easily assembled in front of an audience. Without revealing anything more specific, you can position the chairs and set the board into position without fussing for the perfect set.

3) Along the same train of thought, following the suspension, the board is effortlessly removed/disconnected without any distracting moves.

4) The gimmick itself is extremely stealth and this may be performed both close up and surrounded. Jay presents some specific handling tips for those kids who peer under the suspended subject.

5) An explanation and performance DVD is included where Jay shares specific tips for a variety of situations though nothing is really ever a big deal. The production itself is basic but the content is thorough.

6) The Elite Suspension also includes some subtle visual enhancements which add to the illusion of the suspended person.

7) The removed board and chair seem to be much lighter making their removal effortless.

8) The cloth along the board is substantially plusher and designed not to snag.

9) The Elite Suspension comes with a nice carry bag which is easy to load and carry the unit in and out of your venue over your shoulder.

I am sure that I am missing a number of other changes, but I did want to share my immediate observations as those things that were most relevant to my use. I have never used the European Chair Suspension and can't offer any observations as to how they might compare. I got this directly from Jay Leslie as believe he exclusively manufactures and sells these directly.

Dan.
Message: Posted by: Magician Toronto (Jan 12, 2012 03:57PM)
I just got a chair suspension from Mak Last month. It's defective and I sent 2 email to them with the pics and they have not responded. Any suggestions?
Message: Posted by: Amazing Magic Co (Jan 12, 2012 05:45PM)
I would try calling them direct: (614) 276-7381
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Jan 15, 2012 06:44PM)
Jay,
The "sagging" of the arms or the feet or any need of "rests" for them is not a meaningful comparsion so I don't see the logic in your point.

Also, the fact that there is no "applause" when a body is suspended from two points rather than one point has other causes than the one you are attributing it to. For one thing, one would hope the performer knows how to present an illusion so that they get applause at the climax to the effect through the use of visual cues to the audience that this is the moment.

In any case, the the earlier posts I in no way tried to say that suspension from two points were more magical than suspension from one point. That's the whole point of the dramatic arc of the illusion. It gets more remarkable. However, that does not invalidate that being suspended by two points is also remarkable and magical albeit less so.

Of course, the most magical would be to be suspended by zero points of contact. That is the type of suspension I usually perform.

Jim
Message: Posted by: jay leslie (Jan 15, 2012 08:22PM)
If you're bringing-up the philosophy against additional supports (from earlier) then you yourself made my argument for me.

My argument is that the assistant should not have a headrest. Your initial statement (above) is "The "sagging" of the arms or the feet or any need of "rests" for them is not a meaningful comparison so I don't see the logic in your point."

But in summary of your post (above) you write "Of course, the most magical would be to be suspended by zero points of contact. That is the type of suspension I usually perform."

You made my point for me (if I understand your post correctly). Your observation that the fewest points of contact appear most magical is as good as it gets. So you agree with myself and Kyle that Less Is More. My point was that having 5 supports looks less magical then having one - I also agree with you that the best presentation for a floating effect would be with no visible support at all - but if you're in a living room or in a park that's difficult to do.

I'll be in the audience tomorrow for James Randi, at the castle. Come by early and we can talk. I'll probably be there around 6:45.
Jay
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Jan 16, 2012 05:13AM)
Jay,
I'd love to get together sometime. I believe any headrest for a chair suspension should not be visible to the audience. I think that's what my earlier posts were getting at, and that's what Kyle and I pmed each other about. Sorry about any confusion.
I probably can't make it tomorrow but would enjoy a chance to meet. Thank you!

Jim
Message: Posted by: magic4u02 (Jan 23, 2012 08:43AM)
No worries folks. It looks like you both were in a way saying the same thing. the important thing here is the yunderstanding that a head rest support is 1) not needed and 2) kills the overall look and impact of the illusion itself.

Kyle
Message: Posted by: Paul Rathbun (May 10, 2015 05:26PM)
Have one for sale here if anyone is interested: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=587148&forum=76
Message: Posted by: TomB (Aug 15, 2019 03:06AM)
If you ever tried to balance a 12 oz coke can at 45 degrees, you can start to appreciate the delicate nature of this illusion.

I think the first question to ask is, How should natural laws of physics have the person look if balanced on a chair.

Using Archemides principles, the head and rest of the body is equally weighted on the chair fulcrum. Using this method, both are raised above the top of the chair. Clearly if you believe the head should be raised, use a headrest to alleviate neck strain. The major issue with this version is the principle of being too perfect. When someone is completely flat, the spectator is going to assume how the trick is done. And in more cases then not, the legs will sag a few inches and the head will be flat and the execution of balance will be poor.

The Harbin way allows the magician to put the person in relaxed state with the head hanging down. The head is suppose to be heavy to counter the weight of the rest of the body. This should be verbally communicated to the audience. With the head down, it is natural to offset the balance with the raising of feet. This also fixes the dreaded feet sag with wonderful misdirection. Now the balance of the chair fulcrum looks complete without looking stiff, and the spectator is amazed with no comprehension how its done.

With those points in mind, read the first chapter of Fitzkee Showmanship for Magicians. Fitzkee argues that 75 percent of magicians performances are poor and another 24 percent are mediocre. With only 1 percent doing a good job we should listen to those with successful experience.

Here is Penn and Teller performing on Wendy William's show. Notice the moment of suspension and the angle of the body with regards to the chair fulcrum. At no time during the brief suspension does the method become obvious.

https://youtu.be/StZYM30QJ88