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Topic: How Long?
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Jan 23, 2011 03:15PM)
Okay, I'm completely new to this. In fact, I haven't started yet. I've been a magician for 11 years doing close up, stage, and children's parties. I've been very successful and lucky. I've seen two hypnotists and I began thinking that it's something that I really want to start doing. I have an adult show that's funny, but I'd much rather do hypnotism for adults. So, a buddy of mine suggested that I buy the New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnosis to begin. I'm anxiously awaiting its arrival and will devour it. My question to all of you is: How long did it take you after studying to build up the courage to even try it on a group of willing friends? I'm thinking friends are going to be my basis for a while before I get the courage to try open mic nights for free. Once again, this is a field that is completely new and exciting to me. Thanks in advance for any help, encouragement, and answers you can give!
Message: Posted by: Zerububle (Jan 23, 2011 03:38PM)
I can hear a can of worms opening!
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Jan 23, 2011 03:56PM)
"Why does everyone say a can of worms? Worms aren't that scary. You should say a can of bees." --paraphrasing Penn and Teller.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 23, 2011 04:01PM)
I suggest you look paragraph #3 in the "Ground Rules" thread. (It is the sticky topic by Lee Darrow that appears at the top of this forum.)

Good thoughts,

Bob Cassidy
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 23, 2011 05:03PM)
Well, since he opened the can of worms, I'll take the first worm. You already seem to be approaching this from a magician's perspective. It's not a matter of yow long it will take you to "get the courage", initially it's more a matter of how long will it take you to learn and acquire the skills and knowledge necessary to begin to try or apply it. While confidence is part of the learning, it's much more about the understanding and mechanics that will dictate when you're ready. You'll need to have an understanding of hypnosis, verbalization of your setup, induction and suggestions, how to determine volunteers, how to setup and execute an induction and what essentially becomes the entire process, from your first introduction to execution.

Secondly, I personally feel you're headed towards one of the mistakes most commonly made by beginner hypnotists in that you shouldn't try your first attempts on family, friends or friends of friends that are setup for you. I know this makes it difficult, but in more ways than one this works against you and can lead to setbacks. These people know you and will have a very hard time taking you seriously and being able to focus and concentrate to the level you are requiring. They may also be more tempted to not give you a true gauge, perhaps playing along or other distorted results.

Remember, hypnosis isn't a trick or an effect you are learning, it's a skill, art and science, which really only comes from a combination of the proper eduction and training, - then followed by hands on work usually with a mentor, coach, consultant or internship. Anything short of that you will set yourself up for discouragement, setbacks, frustration, self-doubt and other possible detriments. You are working with people's minds and must be able to achieve the level of trust and knowledge needed to be able to handle the best and worst of situations. Most newbies I know take a year or two before they really feel confident and find their legs. Sounds like you may have the performance part down based on your eleven years of experience, but it's the understanding and application of hypnosis itself, then how you take that and adapt it to your interest as a performer. Once all of this is done you then work on your pretalk, volunteer selection and determination, induction method(s), routines or skits and some call them, and of course all while safety should be first and foremost.

How long did it take you once you started in magic before you became comfortable? In some ways it's like learning anything new from scratch.

It's very consuming but rewarding when you finally get to where you want to be, but it is a process. There will be other's that chime in here with newfangled ideas, methods, and shortcuts, but if it's true stage hypnosis you're seeking Ormond's book is a nice starting point (I was trained by Ormond) as are other books and dvd resources, but my suggestion would be after reading and viewing those, to at least take a live training seminar. This will together give you your initial foundaton.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Jan 23, 2011 05:16PM)
If you want to put on hypnosis shows, for adults (I 'think' that's what you intimated?), and assuming you can afford it, I'd advise doing what we all did and pay money to go on a stage hypnosis course OR get mentored by a pro stage hypnotist.
Welcome to 'You are getting Sleepy'. The friendliest room in the house.

Bob.
Message: Posted by: Scott M (Jan 23, 2011 05:54PM)
Great post Mindpro...that should be somewhere for everyone that comes here asking the same question. Dick Christen in the Penny forum always has a great stock answer for questioners and it is always referred to...as yours should be.

-Scott M
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 23, 2011 06:09PM)
I was accidentally booked for my first hypnosis show. I got the Encyclopaedia in the post on Thursday, and did the show - successfully - on Saturday night. So two days.

But the Encyclopaedia is not where I would start. The most useful beginners guide I have come across is the Eddie Burke guide to stage and cabaret hypnosis, available from http://www.mreenterprises.co.uk.

Best of luck with it.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 23, 2011 06:15PM)
I now understand when you say you don't believe in hypnosis Tony - and that you don't experience your volunteers as saying they don't remember anything or that they did but have no control over it.

How is the bank robbing project coming along? Do you need any assistants?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 23, 2011 06:38PM)
I can't say too much about the bank plans - but I hope to be posting from the Bahamas before the end of the year!
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Jan 23, 2011 06:38PM)
Twisted, I can certainly understand your interest. You can do an entire evening show that fills a huge auditorium and never have a trailer full of props or dozens of assistants. Sounds wonderful, huh?

In answer to your question, though, it's honestly irrelevant how long any of the professionals here took to be able to give a show. The variables all depend upon you.

Buying one book and watching a couple of shows and thinking you're going to be able to quickly be a great or even just decent performer is like thinking you could watch Angel a could of times on TV, buying a copy of "Now You See It Now You Don't" and a Zig-Zag and thinking you're going to be able to give a full evening show.

So let me give you some things to consider:

1) Performer. There are many magicians who simply do one trick then another. Their main expression is, "For my next trick..." They are people who do magic. Nothing against them. I and numerous others started that way. Some, however, never get further. They don't reach the level where, to borrow a concept form Ant, they are THE MAGICIAN. They are always THE MAGICIAN. Everything they do is as THE MAGICIAN. The effects are just things done to further the aspect of being THE MAGICIAN. I don't know what kind of performer you are. If you are a person who does magic, it will take you far longer than if you are THE MAGICIAN. Being THE MAGICIAN includes acting, staging, and speaking skills that can easily be transferred to stage hypnosis.

2) Practice. As Mindpro points out, "you shouldn't try your first attempts on family, friends or friends of friends that are setup for you." He didn't say why, however. The reason is that in most instances they will either be more difficult to hypnotize of will fake it in order to please you. I don't know where you live, but in most major cities there are groups that can meet and practice with each other. If there's not one in your area, perhaps you could start one.

3) Skill. I don't know anyone who could buy a book on how to surf, then borrow a board and surf the big waves of Hawaii. As with most skills, you could watch dozens of people perform and then learn through trial and error. However, the easiest and most efficient way is to get some in-person training.

So let me be blunt. Assume that you are THE MAGICIAN and that you take an in-person training. You could be giving a fair show in less than a month. When you use DVDs, books, and additional training to expand on the basics you learn, you could be giving an excellent show within six months to a year. From what I've seen, the vast majority of people who try to learn stage hypnosis ONLY from books and DVDs never succeed. Do some make it? Absolutely. Someone eventually wins the multi-state Lottery, too. 99.99% of those who play never win as much as they lose.

Consider this: if you went to school to become a doctor, it would take years and leave you $50,000+ in debt. If you wanted to become a plumber it would take years of struggle while you learn from professionals and make little money. If you wanted to do a full stage show it might cost you tens of thousands or more for props, plus years of practice leading up to you being able to do a show. With hypnosis, you would spend only a few thousand getting professional training and be able to start earning within a few weeks or months. And if you expand your scope of study and training, you could move into hypnotherapy for additional earnings and a career after you retire as a professional entertainer.

Compared to most fields, the costs are very small and the time to become a professional is very short. It's embarrassing, insulting, and sadly humorous to real all of the whiners (I'm not talking about you) who come to this board and others demanding free training and then being ****ed off when told they might actually have to do things like study or practice. As someone who has already been an entertainer for over a decade, I am delighted with your energy and excitement, and I hope you can see the amazing and unlimited potential in this profession.

However you decide to work it I wish you only good luck and much success!
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 23, 2011 06:46PM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-23 19:38, dmkraig wrote:
From what I've seen, the vast majority of people who try to learn stage hypnosis ONLY from books and DVDs never succeed.
[/quote]
That has not been my experience. Roughly half of the handful of hypnotists I know personally (as opposed to communicating with on this or other forums) had no formal hypnosis training apart from books and DVDs before doing their first show. It can be done. Don't discourage the guy.
If you are a good performer with a strong sense of showmanship, you can learn to do stage hypnosis. And quite quickly, if you have the balls.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 23, 2011 06:55PM)
To be GOOD takes longer and natural ability. But that's the same as anything. I started with friends and friends of friends and had no problems. But everyone is different. I would stay away from family though. Hypnosis in general is such a big subject you could spend most of your life learning if you so desire.
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Jan 23, 2011 07:23PM)
I understand that some people here may probably become a little put off by my current enthusiasm to learn this and dedicate myself to learning it. I have a good understanding of audiences through my years of experience as a performer. Like I said, I'm mainly a close up guy doing LOTS of corporate gigs and casinos. I also do kids shows...this is partly because I understand the psychology of children. Here's a little more of my background: I graduated from Villanova with a Psychology degree and then later went to graduate school for education. Now, I'm an elementary teacher by day and professional entertainer on the weekends and throughout the summers. Not to be conceited, but I know that I'll have the natural stage presence to run one of these shows. I want to LEARN about the process and psychology behind it, just like I LEARNED how to be a pro-magi. I'm not just out to do a quick trick or two. I resepect what you all do. I would appreciate it if you respect the fact that I want to learn the same way you probably did back in the day. I'm going to have questions just as you all did. Thanks for all of the posts so far. Please keep them coming.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 23, 2011 08:49PM)
Thanks for providing us more details about yourself as it always helps to know who we are dealing with. Your performing experience will come in great and be a strong asset for the performance aspect once you have the basics and fundamentals of hypnosis down. I guess the point being offered, which I'm sure you can understand since you have a degree in Psychology, is that there is an entire different mentality for learning and presenting hypnosis, which differs greatly form magic. That was the only point trying to be made. Please understand that every week someone (magician) comes on here wanting to learn hypnosis or become a hypnotist, but do not want to put the time and effort into properly learning and being trained, often not understanding the extent of what is involved, as when they see it performed well it looks so basic and easy.

As I said there will be people that come on here and say it can be learned in a week or a month or by simply reading a single book. As an educated person I sure you can understand the difference in what true learning, knowledge and acquiring the necessary skills takes as far as time and commitment, as opposed to what these people are trying to tell you.

Let me clarify not for you but for the others that sometimes read more into what is being said. Only you know your level of commitment and the rate at which you can learn and comprehend something new. You seem like you want to do this right which I applaud you for. So yes, you could read a book and try this on someone the next day or the same week. But what I understood you to be asking is how long would it take you to learn about hypnosis, understand what you will be executing, reviewing this within yourself to a level of comfort and confidence, and some basic level of assurity that you can make a legitimate, honest attempt at trying this on proper subjects. Reality should tell you a day or week is unreasonable to do it properly.

The performance skills you have will not really come into existence until the second half of the equation once the hypnosis fundamentals are learned and you feel you are comfortable and successful with. Once you are at this point the learning curve will speed up drastically as you can simply then apply your skills as an entertainer to these fundamentals. This is where you "get to the good stuff" that those entering stage hypnosis aspire to.

I seem to perform in the Philadelphia area a couple of times a year and would be happy to get together with you if you are interested on my next visit ro offer my two cents.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Jan 23, 2011 11:51PM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-23 19:38, dmkraig wrote:
From what I've seen, the vast majority of people who try to learn stage hypnosis ONLY from books and DVDs never succeed.
[/quote]
[quote]
On 2011-01-23 19:46, TonyB2009 wrote:That has not been my experience. Roughly half of the handful of hypnotists I know personally (as opposed to communicating with on this or other forums) had no formal hypnosis training apart from books and DVDs before doing their first show. It can be done. Don't discourage the guy.
If you are a good performer with a strong sense of showmanship, you can learn to do stage hypnosis. And quite quickly, if you have the balls.
[/quote]

Tony, I would respectfully say that you're looking at this from the opposite view. You're looking at the number of people who succeed. What I'm talking about is the number of people who "try to learn stage hypnosis ONLY from books and DVDs." For every person who goes to a training there are hundreds of people who buy DVDs and books thinking they're going to become hypnotists. As I wrote, the vast majority of them never succeed.

If you take a tiny sample of those people (those who do succeed) you'll get very skewed numbers. I happen to know far more who have succeeded after they were trained. I didn't mention that because it's a skewed sample. You say going from books and DVDs "can be done." I don't disagree with that at all. A very small number of people do succeed that way.

Let me put it this way:
Out of 100 people who try to become a hypnotist from reading books and watching DVDs, I would guess the success rate is under 5%. Of those who try to become a hypnotist by being trained and using books and DVDs and adjuncts, I'd say that percentage jumps to 50%. I would also add that most people who buy books and DVDs and take trainings do so only to learn and not to actually practice.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 24, 2011 05:39AM)
I would say its a lot less than 5%. .005%

The other thing is when you invest time and a considerable amount of money you are more likely to do it. You will have committed. I was scared out of my mind first few times I did it. If I hadn't committed to spending the money which was scarce at the time chances are I would've avoided the first few shows and never got started. I think I got my first paying gig about 6 weeks later. It took three shows to be in profit and each 1 hour show was paying me what most my friends worked all week for. And that was as a beginner.
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Jan 24, 2011 06:06AM)
[quote]
But what I understood you to be asking is how long would it take you to learn about hypnosis, understand what you will be executing, reviewing this within yourself to a level of comfort and confidence, and some basic level of assurity that you can make a legitimate, honest attempt at trying this on proper subjects. Reality should tell you a day or week is unreasonable to do it properly.
[/quote]

This was exactly my point. I'm not looking to do this quickly. I was just curious to know about how long it was before some people here really understood what they learned enough to simply practice on willing subjects.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jan 24, 2011 06:44AM)
At least when you are ready (opinions vary :lol: ) having an act makes for easier integration and greater safety net than just going out as a full blown Hypnotist Show. Especially easy if you are a mentalist or do a mental magic piece in your existing act. The Manchurian Approach (Anthony Jacquin) covers this integration nicely.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 24, 2011 06:46AM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-24 00:51, dmkraig wrote:
You're looking at the number of people who succeed. What I'm talking about is the number of people who "try to learn stage hypnosis ONLY from books and DVDs." For every person who goes to a training there are hundreds of people who buy DVDs and books thinking they're going to become hypnotists. As I wrote, the vast majority of them never succeed.
[/quote]
Kraig, you are right. I stand corrected. There could be a hundred or more failures for every success I am aware of.
I actually have no problem with training. But living in Ireland training was not an option. I am going to rectify that this weekend; I am doing a workshop with the notorious Jonathan Royle. It's only 20, which suits a cheapskate like me. I might do a review if it is worth while.
Message: Posted by: Rotten (Jan 24, 2011 09:58AM)
Here is who I studied with. If you have the time and money it is well worth it. He's a great teacher and a fantastic performer. Come to Florida and enjoy the weather.

http://www.MacCrawHypnosis.com/

Best of luck,
Ted
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 24, 2011 10:48AM)
[quote]
On 2011-01-24 07:44, Shrubsole wrote:
At least when you are ready (opinions vary :lol: ) having an act makes for easier integration and greater safety net than just going out as a full blown Hypnotist Show. Especially easy if you are a mentalist or do a mental magic piece in your existing act. The Manchurian Approach (Anthony Jacquin) covers this integration nicely.
[/quote]

Why on earth if you could do stage hypnosis would you want to simply integrate this as part of a magic show? This reduces the impact of hypnosis to simply that of a trick to the audience. This makes no sense to me. If you are a skilled performer (in hypnosis) why would you want to do this. It sounds like he's looking to evolve by becoming a stage hypnotist. Perhaps he may want to offer two completely separate shows, but I don't understand this sentiment. It won't lessen or make doing the hypnosis any easier or quicker. If anything it will reduce it and more than likely minimize it.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Jan 24, 2011 11:14AM)
Tony, I'd LOVE to read your review! Please consider posting it here.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 24, 2011 12:11PM)
Ant isn't a stage hypnotist. So I would keep away from his material. He will be the first to tell you that himself.
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Jan 24, 2011 01:28PM)
I spent five minutes with my mentor and ten minutes later had the barman on the floor. I started my stage show after spending about 2 months travelling around and watching other people. Died on my a-ss the first show and never did again.

I knew nothing about the theory or psychology of hypnosis but then fortunately neither did my audiences.

I did eventually read and study but it isn't absolutely necessary.

At the end of the day it's about having gonads of brass and little else.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Jan 24, 2011 03:42PM)
Just to correct MP. I am a stage hypnotist and regularly perform stage hypnosis. I was trained by the best teacher of stage hypnosis in the UK I could find, Jon Chase. However I do not train people in stage hypnosis, do not plan to teach stage hypnosis and do not cover this aspect of the art in my materials.

I recommend you checkout Deeper and Deeper both book and video and if still available get on his course if you want to learn this model. It is pragmatic, practical and if you ask the author good questions, you will get good answers. You might not like the answers but it will save you time.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 24, 2011 04:46PM)
I stand corrected..
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Jan 24, 2011 05:17PM)
Yes. All Jon's material is really good.
Haven't seen much of anybody else's but I also enjoyed Alex Duvall's eBook and more recently (so shoot me) Jonathan Royle's DVDs (if you can still get hold of them.)
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Jan 24, 2011 05:45PM)
LOL Reg, avoiding them is nearly impossible ;-0 Thanks Ant.
Message: Posted by: twistedace (Jan 24, 2011 08:36PM)
[\quote] It sounds like he's looking to evolve by becoming a stage hypnotist. Perhaps he may want to offer two completely separate shows[/quote]

Bingo. I'm looking to offer another type of show. It may take me a few years of hard work, but I want to have a FUN, interactive, and professional show.