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Topic: I am disappointed
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 7, 2011 12:46PM)
Hi guys.
You will have noticed that a recent thread on a controversial character has been deleted. Myself and the management here have had a frank exchange of views on the matter, and I will let it drop now.
All I will say is that people I respected suggested I post a review, which I did. Then a regular poster (I don't know who) made a complaint.
Whoever he is, he has disappointed me. I expected a greater level of maturity amongst fellow professionals. Tony.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Feb 7, 2011 05:10PM)
Freedom of speech means nothing today with all these internet forums.

What they all should clearly post at the top of every page is 'Post your opinion if you must but if the management don't agree with it, they will take away your opinion and leave only opinions that want.'

Far simpler if they just told us what they want us to say or just cut out the middleman and type it themselves.

Thing is they want to attract people so that they can sell the numbers of people to the advertisers, but then don't actually want your opinion if they don't like it.

In my opinion, you had every right to post a review if that is what you wanted to do and everyone had the right to post their opinions about it as well.

Not too hard to work out who the alerting party was, is it?
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 8, 2011 10:36AM)
I have seen numerous forums where posts have been edited or deleted to match the desires of the forum's owners.

Immediately, some people will protest, often with comments such as Shrubsole's, "Freedom of speech means nothing today with all these internet forums."

But freedom of speech does not mean that person A has to pay for person B to say anything, even if it disagrees with what person A believes or could cost person A a fortune.

The people here pay for the software to run this forum. They pay to host it. They pay to maintain it. They pay to prevent spam. They pay for the bandwidth. It's their forum and rather than complaining about a supposed lack of free speech, we should be thanking them for maintaing these forums.

This is their playground and you're invited to play here. If they don't like the way you're playing they can stop you from playing either with a "time out" or with a permanent ban.

It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. That's the way it is. However, there absolutely IS FREE SPEECH. If you don't like the way any particular forum is being run you are free to start your own forum where people can say things they aren't saying here. If you do this you're also free to

Pay for the software to run your forum.
Pay to host your forum.
Pay to maintain your forum.
Pay to prevent spam on your forum.
Pay for the bandwidth for your forum
Pay to have others abuse your hospitality.
Pay to have people say that freedom of speech means nothing to you.

I think the people running this forum are doing a good job.
I've had a few of my posts deleted and edited.

If you don't like the way this forum is being run I would invite you to spend the money to design and set up and run a forum that you would like.

That's real freedom of speech.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 8, 2011 12:50PM)
Hi Kraig. I wouldn't expect such narrow-minded drivel from a five year old. It is more disappointing to see it come from an adult. Tony
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Feb 8, 2011 01:44PM)
I have to admit: Mere mention of a name as grounds for deletion of a thread seems a bit harsh.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Feb 8, 2011 01:48PM)
I too have had posts edited and deleted. Seems sometimes like the best ones get pulled if they become too controversial. I guess the bottom line is this is someones private business venture and they have the right to control the contents for whatever reasons (liability, sponsorships, unshared interests or perspectives) which we all must respect. It truly isn't a free forum as most are not. this is probably a good thing as most if uncontrolled could be mayhem.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 8, 2011 03:14PM)
[quote]
On 2011-02-08 14:44, quicknotist wrote:
I have to admit: Mere mention of a name as grounds for deletion of a thread seems a bit harsh.
[/quote]

Unless it's: 'Macbeth!!!'
Message: Posted by: Shane Masters (Feb 8, 2011 03:20PM)
Oh darn it....I missed something good.-Shane
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Feb 8, 2011 07:07PM)
I have never subscribe to this suck up attitude of because they CAN that somehow means they are right and correct.

In some cases they are not and people will comment about it as they are doing so here.

The owners are free to join in if they wish, but usually they hide as they have nothing to back up their actions except 'I CAN so I think that makes me right and correct' (It doesn't)
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Feb 8, 2011 07:14PM)
[quote]
On 2011-02-08 16:20, Shane Masters wrote:
Oh darn it....I missed something good.-Shane
[/quote]

Not really!

Tony posted a review of a controversial hypnotist's show that he had seen.
People posted their views of said controversial hypnotist.
Controversial hypnotist's best buddy arrived.
Buddy told us we were all wrong.
We laughed at him.

That's pretty much it!
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Feb 8, 2011 09:56PM)
Oh this is just ridiculous! Are we really not allowed to mention names?
OK. Let us see how long this one lasts:

Tony saw lectures by both Jonathan Royle and James Brown at a Magic convention in Bournemouth, UK.
He gave a positive review of both.
Many of us who were unable to attend were grateful for that.
Some people seemed to get all worked up at the mere mention of Jonathan Royle.
The entire thread disappeared.
End of story.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Feb 8, 2011 10:42PM)
There really is much more to it than that as longtime members will remember. You are over simplifying it I'm guessing because you may be unaware of their history here at the Café.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 9, 2011 05:39AM)
Their history here at the Café (I was not aware both had a history) is irrelevant. I was not promoting them. One is banned, and did not post here. Where is the problem?
Message: Posted by: bobser (Feb 9, 2011 09:00AM)
[quote]
On 2011-02-08 20:07, Shrubsole wrote:
The owners (Of The Café)are free to join in if they wish, but usually they hide as they have nothing to back up their actions except 'I CAN so I think that makes me right and correct' (It doesn't)
[/quote]

I don't really think it's like that Shrubby. I think 'The Owners' will probably have learned over many years that the old adage in all forms of management is a pretty good rule of thumb: 'Give your decisions and NOT your reasons. Your reasons will rarely be understood.'

Having said that it could be argued that here is one case that might well be described as an exception to the rule.

Bob B
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Feb 9, 2011 10:44AM)
But not having your reason understood is not a good reason for not giving it.
And if they are not understood (as applies to anything not understood) then a better explanation is needed.

If not you end up like you do in many companies with a disgruntled and unmotivated workforce, where the management bark out their orders think that there is no need to give any reason and then expect the workforce to be enthusiastic about it.

Better communication is always the better way. Everyone is working towards the same goal and understand why they are doing so. The other way just breeds a 'them and us' dictatorship with the management coming across as 'We CAN and so that makes us right' attitude. Further; not even thinking that a reason is needed to be given (whether understood or not) only helps promote that attitude.

I mean why was the thread removed? As no explanation was given. How do we know not to do exactly the same thing again? (And we need the management's reason not just other people's speculation)

The bottom line being that if the management want people to act like adults then treating them that is the start. Acting like a dictator and considering themselves above needing to give reasons just creates a bad atmosphere.

:)
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Feb 9, 2011 10:48AM)
[quote]
On 2011-02-09 06:39, TonyB2009 wrote:
Their history here at the Café (I was not aware both had a history) is irrelevant. I was not promoting them. One is banned, and did not post here. Where is the problem?
[/quote]

We would find out if the management gave an explanation! (It's really as simple as that)

Now we are left with not knowing what parts of that thread were not allowed and so we have no understanding of not doing them again!
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Feb 10, 2011 10:40AM)
This forum is free Tony. It does however belong to someone and I guess if you play in someone else's yard they have every right to take the ball away if you don't play to their rules.

I think this forum is way one of the best.

And I personally applaud it's management for providing it.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 11, 2011 06:43AM)
Jon, any further up their arse and your nose will begin to smell!
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 11, 2011 12:45PM)
[quote]
On 2011-02-08 13:50, TonyB2009 wrote:
Hi Kraig. I wouldn't expect such narrow-minded drivel from a five year old. It is more disappointing to see it come from an adult. Tony
[/quote]

Perhaps not. But when people have no understanding of freedom of speech and only want to whine about it, I guess disappointment is something commonly experienced.

There are billions of pages on the internet. If you don't like what's allowed on one, go to another. If you can't find one you like, start another.

Just stop whining.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 11, 2011 12:52PM)
[quote]
On 2011-02-08 20:07, Shrubsole wrote:
I have never subscribe to this suck up attitude of because they CAN that somehow means they are right and correct.
[/quote]

I don't agree that it's "right and correct" to let people post, either.
However, it's the owner's playground and we're merely shoving sand and pushing swings.
As long as we do it their way, the will let us stay and play.
If we don't do it their way they'll tell us to go.

The great thing about the internet is that we can always go out and start our own playground that will follow our rules if we don't like the rules of someone else's playground. It happens all the time.

Whining does no good. Action does. If you think your rules are better, start your own playground and if you're right, people will play at your place.

It's not just freedom of speech, it's also a free marketplace.
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Feb 12, 2011 07:09PM)
You know Tony I could care less. I enjoy this site and yes, again I applaud the guys doing it.
Message: Posted by: jdmagic357 (Feb 20, 2011 03:49PM)
If TonyB is the same TonyB from one of those "exposer" forums, then having had a post removed shouldn't be a big deal, since he mods and has removed many a post himself. Just an fyi, if it is him?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 20, 2011 05:06PM)
No, definitely not me. Apart from talkmagic.co.uk, I don't participate in any forums. Though in general I am strongly in favour of exposure, I can't claim that honour. And no forum in the world would invite me to be a moderator. And if they did I wouldn't remove non-libellous posts.