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Topic: Wizard Product Review - (Red Mirror, Angelux, Drink Magic and Cash Flow)
Message: Posted by: Craig Petty (Mar 9, 2011 10:06AM)
Hi guys.

This weeks show is now live!

On this weeks show we look at Drink Magic, Red Mirror, Cash Flow and Angelux.

As normal guys we love your feedback so please let us know what's good, what's bad, what you like and what don't like! We can only improve with your help!

Thanks again

Craig

Link to show - [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvFXkd-gXlw]Click Here![/url]
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Mar 9, 2011 10:51AM)
The Wizard Product Review, Review:

Entertainment 100%
Side splitingly funniness 101%
Products -300%
Usefulness to Mentalists 0%

Just off to buy Drinks Magic! :lol:

Great show as usual. Thank you for preventing us from buying some seriously bad crap!
Message: Posted by: cydermaster (Mar 9, 2011 11:08AM)
Agree with Dave ;)

Will you be doing a companion DVD for Drinks Magic like you did for WOW 2.0? :D
Message: Posted by: BenCardall (Mar 9, 2011 11:34AM)
Hey chaps!

loving wpr! do you guys review e-books aswell?
Message: Posted by: iainmacleod (Mar 9, 2011 11:52AM)
Great show as usual.
Is "Black Sock Production" available as a single trick DVD?
Message: Posted by: Craig Petty (Mar 9, 2011 01:46PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-09 12:52, iainmacleod wrote:
Great show as usual.
Is "Black Sock Production" available as a single trick DVD?
[/quote]

Funnily enough apparently he does sell the 20oz production as a single trick. So yes - but you've have to be mad to buy it!!!
Message: Posted by: William B (Mar 9, 2011 01:58PM)
I always laugh my head off whilst watching the wizard product review. Another great episode.
100%
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Mar 9, 2011 04:01PM)
Although I love the negative reviews. You should let people know how great John Guastafero's stuff is. Modular, practical, entertaining, doable. Except for the odd trick I actually have trouble finding card stuff that is better for real world performance.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Mar 9, 2011 05:46PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-09 14:46, Craig Petty wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-09 12:52, iainmacleod wrote:
Great show as usual.
Is "Black Sock Production" available as a single trick DVD?
[/quote]

Funnily enough apparently he does sell the 20oz production as a single trick. So yes - but you've have to be mad to buy it!!!
[/quote]

What happens if you only have 15oz feet?
Message: Posted by: shomemagic (Mar 9, 2011 05:52PM)
Another very entertaining show and the best thing....Nothing that I can't live without,,,, Regardless I agree with Dave regarding the Red Mirror dvd why put it out if the buyer isn't allowed to use it.
Im also with Craig's BOLD statement a few weeks ago on Matt Mello's Modern Mentalism I thought it was a GREAT set of dvds..but Im a nobody so what does it matter what I think LOL
Message: Posted by: gaffed (Mar 9, 2011 08:20PM)
Still laughing my *** off! However, I [i][b]can't[/b][/i] do any of them, or perhaps better put......would I care to do so!

I've come to appreciate Dave's view and perspective as to those that don't care to do "knuckle busting" magic for other magicians. So, with that said, if Dave is giving such bad reviews as compared to Craig (which is certainly [i]not[/i] the norm) it would seem as though we have a few "iFloat Awards" this week! ;)
Message: Posted by: rnaviaux (Mar 10, 2011 12:49AM)
I was rather surprised by the notice at the beginning of Red Mirror as well. In thirty five years in magic that is the first product I have seen that asks the purchaser to not do the effects therein. Great effects though.
Message: Posted by: Glenn Morphew (Mar 10, 2011 04:58AM)
I had to rewind, take notes and do a little math to figure out The Worker of the Week. It was a very close race.

Red Mirror... Craig's 85% + Dave's 8% divided by 2 = 46.5%

Angelux... Craig's 50% + Dave's 40% divided by 2 = 45%

So, Red Mirror wins Worker of the week in a photo finish by a mere 1.5% but wait... there is a steward's inquiry...

After a judges review, (since 'You Can't do it') Red mirror has been disqualified
and placed second because by definition, The Worker of the Week can not be awarded to a product that you're not allowed to do.

It was a Great show as always guys...
Message: Posted by: volto (Mar 10, 2011 07:44AM)
The show is awesome - essential viewing - but I have some (hopefully constructive) criticism and a suggestion to offer.

I agree that the 'No Performance' notice on Red Mirror is surprising. That said, I think it's absolutely fine for a DVD to be sold without performance rights, as long as it's clear what you're getting. And I think that selling a DVD simply for inspiration is also fine - and I agree with Craig's point that moves alone can be inspiring. Examples would be Ponta's "sick" - one of, if not the biggest DVD last year - is mainly about the moves, and it's absolutely inspiring. Eric Jones' moves in several routines on "An Extension of Me" are inspiring to a lot of people - Mark Mason specifically references a specific move from Eric as an inspiration on his Triception DVD. I'm sure a load of derivatives of other moves in Oxyclean will emerge over time. Eric cites the moves he was in turn inspired by in his credits, and it's generally just one move or one idea from another routine - GODHAND being a good example, also El Cambio Nada. Helder Guimaraes is indisputably awesome, as is the material. I felt the rating was unfair.

You marked down Angelux for the practicality aspect, which again I only partially agree with. In some situations it would be the perfect method. I think this is another example of what I'm trying to get at - you're grading the products in terms of how they would be received by a working pro with minimal time who wants complete routines, preferably with patter and presentation, that can be performed many times without complicated reset and with maximum practicality. Now, don't get me wrong - that's a huge service to the community, and cuts through a whole load of the rubbish that's inflicted on unsuspecting punters... but I think you're running the risk of throwing away great effects in the drive for practicality. Even in close-up corporate entertainment, there's room for that one-off special that you could do for the managing director - or even better, the entertainment secretary. Dave keeps mentioning TV spots and promo videos - I think it's more important than that - these are effects that might win work if performed right, for the right people. Surely there's no more practical consideration than that?

So my suggestion is to maybe mention the power of the effect, on its own, free from considerations of practicality, cost, effort, skill, angles and everything else - just the power of the effect. We know the ratings are your ratings, for your circumstances - and since you're both really clear about what those performing situations are, that's great. I just think you're being a bit unfair to the more high-impact, low practicality effects.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Mar 10, 2011 10:18AM)
To Volto, I honestly think that although the rating numbers are obviously somewhat arbitrary you can tell from their discourse what the think of the effect in multiple terms - visual, practical, etc. I have agreed with Dave at least more often then not.
Message: Posted by: volto (Mar 10, 2011 11:07AM)
Xcath: Don't get me wrong, the show is awesome and the guys are great... it's just a suggestion of a way I think the show could be improved. Kind of "if you could only do one trick, and impact was the only issue, which would it be?" You're right in that they normally do go into this in the discussion; Dave especially makes a point of mentioning the high impact aspect. I guess the root of my gripe is the rating system. A low rating might mean it was a stunning effect, but thread-based. Or requires a bulky gimmick. Or, in the case of the glass tray thing, a bomb shelter. Anyhow, that was my suggestion to improve the show. Make the ratings more impact-driven.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Mar 10, 2011 12:24PM)
Fair enough
Message: Posted by: gaffed (Mar 10, 2011 03:19PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-10 12:07, volto wrote:
A low rating might mean it was a stunning effect, but thread-based. Or requires a bulky gimmick.[i][b] Or, in the case of the glass tray thing, a bomb shelter.[/b][/i] [/quote]

Now [i]that[/i] really cracked me up! :lol: ( of course I’m referring to the tray that breaks glass)

Yes, I would tend to agree with you to some extent. However, for those who have watched Craig and David for any length of time one begins to easily see what their individual criteria is for various effects, be it right or wrong, and then it all depending on each individual to sift out what actually may be right or wrong for one’s self. I remember some weeks ago where David thought a certain trick should be the worker of the week whereas I thought it was terrible and wish I had never purchased it! But, then again, that’s just my personal feeling and it’s up to each individual to separate the chaff from the wheat after watching the World Magic Review. Of course there are those times when Craig and David give a resounding two thumbs down on a trick that is [i]obviously[/i] a real “stinker”, and sometimes, laughably so! ;)
Message: Posted by: mormonyoyoman (Mar 10, 2011 04:11PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-09 12:34, BenCardall wrote:
Hey chaps!

loving wpr! do you guys review e-books aswell?
[/quote]

Good question, though it has nothing to do with the topic. Since so much is being released in PDF format, some of it good, it's almost a requirement to review some of the releases in this category.

*jeep! and God Bless!
--Grandpa Chet
Message: Posted by: lumberjohn (Mar 10, 2011 04:30PM)
There are some effects that would be great in many situations, but wouldn't meet the needs of a working professional doing restaurant / cocktail party / trade show work. Those effects are likely to receive a poor review on the WPR based upon Craig & Dave's review criteria. For those, it might be helpful to have a separate rating such as hobbyist v. working pro. This wouldn't be necessary for all effects or DVDs, as for most there wouldn't be such a great disparity. But it would assist hobbyists running through past archives and looking at the scores alone to determine tricks they would like.
Message: Posted by: Spader II (Mar 10, 2011 05:53PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-09 14:46, Craig Petty wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-09 12:52, iainmacleod wrote:
Great show as usual.
Is "Black Sock Production" available as a single trick DVD?
[/quote]

Funnily enough apparently he does sell the 20oz production as a single trick. So yes - but you've have to be mad to buy it!!!
[/quote]
Am I the only one who actually think that this was NOT so bad? I can imagine this working on stage or in a theatre. I showed this clip to a few laymen and all of them said "haha nice" or "oh.. cool". It is not a magician fooler and you will get busted on video, but other than that its alright. I like the idea.

Now most of you might laugh at me, but meh.
Message: Posted by: gaffed (Mar 10, 2011 06:06PM)
Yes, but you have to keep in mind that Michael Lair claims that Black Sock Production, and all of these effects, can be done close up.......[i][b]NOT[/b][/i]!
Message: Posted by: Shaefmagic (Mar 10, 2011 06:42PM)
@ craig and Dave

I am going to have to say I disagree with you guys as far as the disclaimer goes. Here is what the disclaimer says:

"The routines performed and explained herein belong to Helder Guimaraes. They are from his working repertoire and are offered for study purposes only. It is Helder's wish that you take inspiration from these ideas and create your own routines rather than perform them as is"

Alright lets break that down. Here are my two thoughts. 1.) I think the big key everyone is missing is the last part of the statement. "Create your own routines rather than perform them as is" I believe this does not have nearly as much to do with performance right as everyone thinks. He is making a statement about wanting you to make the routine YOUR OWN. You can still perform the material he just wants you to make it your own. Your own spin, own patter, own style. Today there is a huge problem with people buying a magic trick and going through the motions (I will try not to soap box too much). Magic is supposed to be about your personality and interaction with the audience... and that doesn't really take place if you are just "going through the motions" so to speak. He is trying to make people think about the make more... just my opinion

2.) If it is really about performance rights... That really only matters if you are doing tv specials, or you a a huge profile magician. If you are not seen by hundreds of thousands of people a year... I don think you need to worry about it. I don't think 97% of magicians who bu y this dvd will ever need to worry about this. So people need to get over it and just perform the material in your own way of course ;-)

Just my thoughts. Like the show overall guys! keep up the good work.

Cheers,
Samuel
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Mar 10, 2011 07:15PM)
Great show guys. I think the way you do the ratings is just right. They are part of the total review and don't really mean much by themselves because there are too many variables. They are part of the conversation. The posters above have made some valid points but I say don't go down the road of taking the ratings seriously even if others mistakenly do.

As for the black sock production, it did look good to me on the first pass.
Message: Posted by: rnaviaux (Mar 10, 2011 09:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-10 19:42, Shaefmagic wrote:
@ craig and Dave

I am going to have to say I disagree with you guys as far as the disclaimer goes. Here is what the disclaimer says:

"The routines performed and explained herein belong to Helder Guimaraes. They are from his working repertoire and are offered for study purposes only. It is Helder's wish that you take inspiration from these ideas and create your own routines rather than perform them as is"

Alright lets break that down. Here are my two thoughts. 1.) I think the big key everyone is missing is the last part of the statement. "Create your own routines rather than perform them as is" I believe this does not have nearly as much to do with performance right as everyone thinks. He is making a statement about wanting you to make the routine YOUR OWN. You can still perform the material he just wants you to make it your own. Your own spin, own patter, own style. Today there is a huge problem with people buying a magic trick and going through the motions (I will try not to soap box too much). Magic is supposed to be about your personality and interaction with the audience... and that doesn't really take place if you are just "going through the motions" so to speak. He is trying to make people think about the make more... just my opinion

2.) If it is really about performance rights... That really only matters if you are doing tv specials, or you a a huge profile magician. If you are not seen by hundreds of thousands of people a year... I don think you need to worry about it. I don't think 97% of magicians who bu y this dvd will ever need to worry about this. So people need to get over it and just perform the material in your own way of course ;-)

Just my thoughts. Like the show overall guys! keep up the good work.

Cheers,
Samuel
[/quote]

I do agree with this but it is rather ambiguous. The phrase/statement that stopped me was "...and are offered for study purposes only."

That was pretty clear to me that these are not routines I can take and perform as-is. I posted my concerns on another thread that Helder has posted on but so far I haven't seen a comment on this concern. Interestingly, the grammar of the statement in in the third person. So I wonder what his thoughts are on the matter or are these indeed his words.

Its not a very big deal in the grand scheme of things as I have plenty of material to study and perform from other authors that I like just as much. It would have been nice to know before spending my money what the exact intention of this product was.
Message: Posted by: Scott Fridinger (Mar 11, 2011 02:43AM)
Love the show, only thing to say is that my Cash Flow gimmick works fine. Not sure what problem you had. Bad shows are funny, keep it up.
Message: Posted by: (a)ndy (Mar 11, 2011 10:43PM)
This show gets better every episode. Keep up the great work guys, this is my "must watch" every week.
Message: Posted by: thoughtthief10 (Mar 12, 2011 04:08PM)
So is Drink Magic worst than Canz or is one as bad as the other? LOL

Brian
Message: Posted by: bigdhri (Mar 17, 2011 12:07PM)
Hey Craig,
You and Dave do a great job giving an honest review about the magic you see. My question for you is did Helder ever respond to your offer to defend his statement at the beginning of the DVD?
Thanks,
Dave
Message: Posted by: mrmetropolis (Mar 21, 2011 06:14AM)
You need to put out a Rifftrax or MST3K version of Drink Magic with just you guys in the background commenting throughout. It would be a smash hit. http://www.rifftrax.com/
Message: Posted by: gaffed (Mar 22, 2011 07:18PM)
@ mrmetropolis Wow....after 47 posts I'm surprised that one of the moderators hasn't caught your avatar and deleted it! When I first joined I had somewhat of a similar avatar and it was deleted in one day as I had not read the avatar rules. Avatar Rules:
[quote] In an effort to help give the Café a more personal touch, we allow members the option to upload a personal avatar.

There's one stipulation: to avoid copyright issues, only a small photo or likeness (artists rendering) of yourself may be used as your avatar.
The picture may be a drawing or caricature, but it must be you! No photo's of movie stars or other celebrities are allowed, unless you are the celebrity.

When choosing your photo, we ask that you use one that best represents how you look now. I do not want to see a photo of you when you were a baby, or a small child, or taken 20 years ago when you were in the army.


Photographs or drawings that look like an X-ray or Negative are prohibited.

Also, I want to see your entire face, not one eye (unless it is a side view) not you with a mask on, not hiding behind something and peeking out...all of your face! I must be able to see your face (eyes,nose,mouth,etc). If you are a Clown or Mime, a photo of you in make-up is fine.

I do not want to see cartoons Mickey Mouse, Bart Simpson etc), playing cards, magic posters, hands holding cards, products (books, DVDs, etc) with your photo on it, wizards, etc. The only exception is my wife Mya Angel who works very hard here, and is entitled to a perk or two
If you wish to have a full shot of you standing or performing, that is fine, just as long as we can see your entire face clearly.

The default rabbit in a hat icon is our own copyrighted image and is not to be altered and used as an avatar.

Any avatars that do not comply with above rules will be removed. It's as simple as that. [/quote]

Just thought I’d warn you. ;)
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Mar 30, 2011 11:34AM)
The performance terms on the Red Mirror DVD are unenforceable unless they are clearly printed on the outside of the box. If they're not, they constitute a new and major term of the contract between the buyer and seller, which cannot be added after a sale is completed - at least in the USA. So from a legal perspective (and ethical, I would say, since you had no notice of the terms prior to payment), you should be safe performing the routines anywhere, if that's what you choose to do.
Message: Posted by: rnaviaux (Mar 30, 2011 12:39PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-30 12:34, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
The performance terms on the Red Mirror DVD are unenforceable unless they are clearly printed on the outside of the box. If they're not, they constitute a new and major term of the contract between the buyer and seller, which cannot be added after a sale is completed - at least in the USA. So from a legal perspective (and ethical, I would say, since you had no notice of the terms prior to payment), you should be safe performing the routines anywhere, if that's what you choose to do.
[/quote]

This brings up an interesting question. If one purchases online and doesn't see said "term" until the product has arrived at ones house (assuming term is on outside of case that is) is it enforceable? Shouldn't this be made clear to buyer at point of purchase?
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Mar 30, 2011 03:00PM)
That depends on who wrote the on-line ad. If it clearly states the terms of sale on the box, and the manufacturer includes that in the official advertising, then it's enforceable. If the dealer deleted that information when drafting his version of an ad, then you have a claim against the dealer only, probably for the value of the purchase. But the non-performance agreement would be enforceable if the packaging (the exterior; not the DVD itself) and the official advertising stated it clearly as a term of sale.
Message: Posted by: Helder Guimaraes (May 4, 2011 08:40AM)
Hello everyone,

Just to clear all the ideas that are being said:

- There is no legal issue in here. Legally, you can perform the routines in the DVD. Period.


Now, let me say something else.

I love magic more than I love myself.
I respect and praise the ideas that are original, the time that each performer magician invest in their own repertoire..
I like to see new and new approaches to magic.
I hate seeing someone copying another magician, even if the routine was published. Instead, I love seeing new aproaches in presentation, method and thinking to published material.
I love seeing people sharing good ideas. I hate people who see only the commercial aspect of "sharing ideas".

That's all that I wanted to say with the message in Red Mirror.
Understand that Magic, for me, it's an Art. I respect other Artists and respect their originality, their aproach, their way of thinking and all their work.
I don't think paying a $40 DVD should allow you to copycat an entire repertoire from someone else. But, if you think so, that's your option.
If we want the audience to respect us, we have to be the first ones to respect what we do.

Sincerelly,

Helder Guimarães