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Topic: For the Vegan Who Has Everything Except a Double-Double...
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 22, 2011 04:07PM)
http://www.quarrygirl.com/2011/03/21/wyspch4-vegan-double-double/#more-12781
Message: Posted by: Erwin (Mar 22, 2011 04:11PM)
This isn't a criticism, I genuinely don't understand:- why would a vegetarian want to eat something that's 'pretending' to be meat? Veggie burgers, veggie sausages, veggie bacon, veggie mince... I don't get it.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 22, 2011 04:24PM)
Because it tastes good.
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 22, 2011 04:27PM)
I agree. I'm a meat eater but I eat a lot of vegetarian dishes that taste really good. I love black bean burgers.
And those Morning Star veggie corndogs, while not healthy by any stretch, still have half the calories of the regular kind and I can't tell the difference in taste.
Message: Posted by: Erwin (Mar 22, 2011 04:30PM)
Of course. But my question is specifically about the meat substitute products. If you don't want to eat meat, why eat a product that imitates meat?

And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 22, 2011 04:32PM)
I can't speak for the vegans, because I aren't one, but the Chik'n nuggets taste the same to me. As do the corn dogs.
Soy bacon is nasty to me though. There's no fakin' bacon.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Mar 22, 2011 04:36PM)
"double meat, double cheese, no animal products"

If there are no animal products, where does the meat and cheese come from?

Anyway, I saw the topic title "double-double" and I assumed this thread was about something else.

As did several other Canadians, no doubt. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7TH557IMt8
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 22, 2011 04:47PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:


And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?
[/quote]
Welllll . . . the not so dirty secret is, it's not. And you'll be sorely disappointed if you thought it would. But they still taste good. (And if it makes you any happier, it doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier for you either--they can still be full of fat and sugar and salt. You have to look at the labels.)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 22, 2011 04:50PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:
Of course. But my question is specifically about the meat substitute products. If you don't want to eat meat, why eat a product that imitates meat?

And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?
[/quote]

While some vegetarians/vegans share the view suggested by your first question, it seems to be a minority opinion within the community. Those who choose the v/v lifestyle for moral reasons (as opposed to ethical reasons) generally do so because they're opposed to the harming of animals for consumption; since those products don't involve the harming of animals, the question becomes (for most of us), why WOULDN'T you?

More definitively, for those of us who were not born into v/v-ism, we all have our favorite non-v/v foods from back before the change...so it's nice to have the substitutes available. Moreover, it can be a good selling point for those who are considering changing over, but have the "Yeah, but I could never give up ______" mentality. Or as I put it when discussing the point on a vegan website, if you want to convince a potential convert, you don't do it by telling him that kale tastes better than corn dogs; you take him to Hugo's tacos and get him a soy chorizo burrito.

The substitutes vary quite a bit with respect to how closely they approximate the food they're substituting. Some are indistinguishable; some aren't too close, and some are really close. As a general rule nowadays, the vast majority are at least very close and getting closer all the time. How many of the good substitutes are available really depends a lot on where you live, though. I wouldn't expect to be able to find a good fake Reuben sandwich in most places in Texas; where I live, I'm pretty close to a half dozen places that have great ones.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Mar 22, 2011 04:52PM)
I read something the other day about how products advertised as being 'organic' often really are not.

So how does one know that essence of beef broth is not being snuck into that vegan ground 'beef'?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 22, 2011 04:53PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:47, landmark wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:


And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?
[/quote]
Welllll . . . the not so dirty secret is, it's not. And you'll be sorely disappointed if you thought it would. But they still taste good. (And if it makes you any happier, it doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier for you either--they can still be full of fat and sugar and salt. You have to look at the labels.)
[/quote]

I'm surprised it's that bad in your neck of the woods. There are quite a few products/dishes that are indistinguishable around here. I could take a committed omnivore out to eat to a different place for quite a while before getting something he'd be able to distinguish from the real thing, let alone be sorely disappointed by.

Agree on reading the labels, but for the most part, the fake meats are pretty good low-fat sources of protein.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 22, 2011 04:55PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:52, balducci wrote:
I read something the other day about how products advertised as being 'organic' often really are not.

So how does one know that essence of beef broth is not being snuck into that vegan ground 'beef'?
[/quote]

Good question...companies and restaurants vary in reputation. Fortunately, we have some good operatives.

http://www.quarrygirl.com/2009/06/28/undercover-investigation-of-la-area-vegan-restaurants/
Message: Posted by: Erwin (Mar 22, 2011 04:56PM)
Thanks Lobo that's a great answer.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 22, 2011 06:01PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:47, landmark wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:30, Erwin wrote:


And is the nice taste of these products the same taste as meat?
[/quote]
Welllll . . . the not so dirty secret is, it's not. And you'll be sorely disappointed if you thought it would. But they still taste good. (And if it makes you any happier, it doesn't necessarily mean they are any healthier for you either--they can still be full of fat and sugar and salt. You have to look at the labels.)
[/quote]

I'm surprised it's that bad in your neck of the woods. There are quite a few products/dishes that are indistinguishable around here. I could take a committed omnivore out to eat to a different place for quite a while before getting something he'd be able to distinguish from the real thing, let alone be sorely disappointed by.


[/quote]
It's been 25 years since I've eaten meat, so maybe I've forgotten. But most New Yorkers on whom I've foisted tofu pups are more skeptical. What does seem to be a big hit with omnis are the Chinese food meat analogs--we've got a number of Chinese Vegetarian restaurants that serve mock duck and beef, and the results are very tasty and agreeable to omnis.

BTW, I'm not clear on your distinction between moral v's and ethical v's.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 22, 2011 06:06PM)
Moral/ethical was the fingers going much faster than the brain (not at all unusual for me). I meant moral as a opposed to health.
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 22, 2011 06:07PM)
We had a Vietnamese restaurant here that had this vegetarian sausage that looked like cat turds but tasted just like sausage. It was awesome. Unfortunately they were in the cursed barn and no business survives there.
Message: Posted by: seadog93 (Mar 22, 2011 08:42PM)
I want to mention three things

1) That looked REALLY good!
I eat free range meat and fish, but I am primarily vegetarian. I eat vegan products now and then... they are often very good.

2)agreeing with Critter, morning star corndogs are great!
I worked in a grocery store at the time, but was not at all vegetarian. I grabbed a box on my break and at them without noticing that they were vegetarian, I was shocked when my co-worker mentioned it!

3) my dad and stepmom growing up were on again off again vegetarians and my wife is a vegetarian. All have them have told me "____(fill in the blank)____ tastes just like meat!" They are always wrong, they just can't remember what meat tastes like. Vegetarian food is very yummy, but it doesn't taste like meat (with the sometime exeption of Mornin Star corndogs :) ).
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 22, 2011 09:32PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 21:42, seadog93 wrote:
I want to mention three things

1) That looked REALLY good!
I eat free range meat and fish, but I am primarily vegetarian. I eat vegan products now and then... they are often very good.

2)agreeing with Critter, morning star corndogs are great!
I worked in a grocery store at the time, but was not at all vegetarian. I grabbed a box on my break and at them without noticing that they were vegetarian, I was shocked when my co-worker mentioned it!

3) my dad and stepmom growing up were on again off again vegetarians and my wife is a vegetarian. All have them have told me "____(fill in the blank)____ tastes just like meat!" They are always wrong, they just can't remember what meat tastes like. Vegetarian food is very yummy, but it doesn't taste like meat (with the sometime exeption of Mornin Star corndogs :) ).
[/quote]

Depends where you're going and what you're eating. Let me know if you're ever going to be in Southern Cal...I've got good money that says I could stump you in a blind taste test.
Message: Posted by: seadog93 (Mar 22, 2011 09:48PM)
Really!? Okay, it's a plan.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Mar 23, 2011 07:06AM)
An interesting thread for me, since I'm still in the process of contemplating "conversion", as Lobo put it.

I love meat, and will surely miss it. Erwin seems to have assumed that vegetarians don't like meat. I think Lobo cleared that up, but this whole thread got me to thinking along slightly different lines than in my own vegetarian thread.

IF I could offer you all of you ALL the foods you like to eat, but somehow magically produce those foods without ever harming a single animal (say, in a replicator ala Star Trek TOS), would you switch to a vegetarian diet? I think most (though not all) would. We don't really [i]truly[/i] want animals harmed. We just like meat. Period.

See, I have lately had an astonishing idea: the ONLY reason that vegetarianism is not the most popular diet in the world is because people like to eat meat. The ONLY reason that not all vegetarians are not vegans is because most of them like animal products.

Now, those statements may seem obvious, but they are not.

We like meat, so we either justify its consumption somehow or we ignore its source. Just last night I was telling my music partner Hans about the Foer book, and at some point he indicated he wasn't interested. Now I, still in the typical rush I get into when thinking seriously about something, was a bit confounded. Was I boring him? His answer--which non-plussed me--was, "I'm not interesting in some guy [he meant Foer, not me, I think] telling me I can't eat meat." Hans simply doesn't want to know where the meat comes from. He doesn't want to hear facts or statistics or arguments. He simply likes meat, and that's that.

I think Hans is typical. But that is surprising. If I could prove to you that the food in front of you at your next meal was made from re-cycled pig-****, would you eat it? If I could prove to you that it was absolutely stuffed with salmonilla, campylobacter, anti-biotics, and rotting fecal matter, would you eat it? If in fact that piece of meat on your plate were secretly taken from road-kill so mashed up that the original animal was unidentifiable, would you eat it?

Probably not, but at least one of those three could very well be true about your next meal.

Yet Hans is completely oblivious to the methods of modern meat production. He just doesn't care.

So back on topic, my fantasy (and it's just a fantasy) is that the billions of dollars spent on creating industrial methods for putting meat on our tables would have been spent on developing ecological, plant-based alternatives to meat and animal products that could be [i]indistinguishable[/i] from the real thing in almost every instance--including my personal holy grail of fried chicken.

So back to Erwin's question of why a vegetarian would want to eat meat-substitutes, might I turn the question on its ear and ask this?

Why would a meat-eater continue to eat meat if there were a healthier, animal-friendlier, environmentally-friendlier, [i]indistinguishable[/i] substitute?

Hans would say, "I like meat", and wouldn't even try the vegan double double. I myself am craving one as I type this. For me, any viable substitutes are more than welcome. Right now I'm looking for them.
Message: Posted by: Erwin (Mar 23, 2011 08:20AM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 08:06, stoneunhinged wrote:
Erwin seems to have assumed that vegetarians don't like meat. [/quote]

My assumption was that vegetarians find eating meat objectionable because they don't want to consume the flesh of another animal; my confusion was how this ethical position stands alongside the consumption of faux-meat products indicating a craving for flesh.

The acknowledgement of a vegetarian's desire for meat being suppressed for ethical reasons and being at least partially sated by faux-meat products I get.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 23, 2011 10:19AM)
[quote]Why would a meat-eater continue to eat meat if there were a healthier, animal-friendlier, environmentally-friendlier, indistinguishable substitute?
[/quote]
For some meat-eaters--please, I said [i]some[/i], as in not all or even possibly many--that's exactly why. Or so they would say.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 23, 2011 05:52PM)
Mother Nature made us omnivores, hence the mixture of incisors and molars and the two front-facing eyes,and the single stomach. vegans think she was immoral. boy are they wrong. there is nothing more perfect on this earth than nature- and guess what? I'm not so arrogant that I think nature made a mistake. take your place at the top of the food chain. don't be afraid. eat meat. its how your brain developed enough to be able to ponder its consumption. its also how you are able to speak. and have internet. and type. yes that's right.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 23, 2011 06:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 18:52, magicfish wrote:
Mother Nature made us omnivores, hence the mixture of incisors and molars and the two front-facing eyes,and the single stomach. vegans think she was immoral. boy are they wrong. there is nothing more perfect on this earth than nature- and guess what? I'm not so arrogant that I think nature made a mistake. take your place at the top of the food chain. don't be afraid. eat meat. its how your brain developed enough to be able to ponder its consumption. its also how you are able to speak. and have internet. and type. yes that's right.
[/quote]

With higher capability comes higher responsibility. As we've become morally introspective beings, we've discarded quite a few of our other primitive trappings. I'm not sure which vegans you're talking about who think Mother Nature was immoral; I do think most believe that having progressed beyond the necessity of meat consumption, it's not at all inconsistent to reevaluate certain assumptions.

The list of things that our ancestors did that have long been discarded out of principle is enormous. There are probably quite a few things on the list that were good for the species as a whole, too. Fortunately, the "reevaluation" gene has for the most part replaced the "Gee, that's the way we've done it for X number of years" gene. Which is also good for the species.

FWIW, those incisors and molars and that stomach work really well on veggie burgers, too.

As for arrogance...well, everyone has his own definition. I think it could apply at least as well to the notion that it's proper to kill sentient beings simply because they taste good.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 23, 2011 06:30PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-22 17:36, balducci wrote:
"double meat, double cheese, no animal products"

If there are no animal products, where does the meat and cheese come from?

Anyway, I saw the topic title "double-double" and I assumed this thread was about something else.

As did several other Canadians, no doubt. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7TH557IMt8
[/quote]

Ditto
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 23, 2011 06:48PM)
How is it a progression, Lobo? it seems deleting meat from the diet would be progress if there was actually something wrong with eating meat, which of course cannot be.
rod.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 23, 2011 06:52PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 19:48, magicfish wrote:
How is it a progression, Lobo? it seems deleting meat from the diet would be progress if there was actually something wrong with eating meat, which of course cannot be.
rod.
[/quote]

By "progressed," I mean in the areas of nutrition and food science, such as developments in soy protein, mineral supplements, etc. I don't know, but my suspicion is that someone who decided not to eat any animals or animal products 5,000 years ago would have done so at a risk to his health that is not faced by people making the same choice today.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Mar 23, 2011 06:54PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 18:52, magicfish wrote:
Mother Nature made us omnivores, hence the mixture of incisors and molars and the two front-facing eyes,and the single stomach. vegans think she was immoral. boy are they wrong. there is nothing more perfect on this earth than nature- and guess what? I'm not so arrogant that I think nature made a mistake. take your place at the top of the food chain. don't be afraid. eat meat. its how your brain developed enough to be able to ponder its consumption. its also how you are able to speak. and have internet. and type. yes that's right.
[/quote]

Mother nature also gave use arsenic, and diseases, etc.

Also, if we're meant to eat meat, why aren't we good at digesting it raw?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 23, 2011 08:13PM)
GDW my young friend, we used to be expert at digesting it raw. lol. then we discovered fire. we evolved. so says your personal message.

Lobo, those who do not eat meat even today face health risks.The inuit peoples of canada consume a diet of 100 percent red meat and and have the lowest risk of heart disease on earth. why? because moose , seal, elk, caribou actually lowers ones cholesterol. please don't make red meat and beef synonymous, although it would be if you stopped hunting and relied on a farmer, which you would never be silly enough to do......... would you?
the health argument is invalid.
Rod
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 23, 2011 08:25PM)
There's been a dearth of available elk and seal here lately, and the moose I tied up to the roof rack of my car just woke up in the tunnel, so I'll just have to stick with the angel food cake for now.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 23, 2011 08:42PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 21:13, magicfish wrote:
GDW my young friend, we used to be expert at digesting it raw. lol. then we discovered fire. we evolved. so says your personal message.

Lobo, those who do not eat meat even today face health risks.The inuit peoples of canada consume a diet of 100 percent red meat and and have the lowest risk of heart disease on earth. why? because moose , seal, elk, caribou actually lowers ones cholesterol. please don't make red meat and beef synonymous, although it would be if you stopped hunting and relied on a farmer, which you would never be silly enough to do......... would you?
the health argument is invalid.
Rod
[/quote]

I think that you misunderstood my point. I wasn't comparing the healthiness of vegetarians vs. non-vegetarians. The comparison I made was between vegetarians today and vegetarians 5,000 years ago. You asked about my use of the word "progressed." We have progressed in the sense that choosing NOT to eat meat is a much more viable option (from a health perspective) than it was in the past.

As for vegetarian diets vs. non-vegetarian diets, both sides have a bunch of experts and studies to "prove" their points.
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 23, 2011 08:44PM)
One thing's for sure:
I'm sure not going to be [b]shamed[/b] into giving up meat.
When I hear I'm "bad" for doing something that I don't really think is bad it makes me defensive. Being defensive doesn't tend to make me very receptive to whatever point is being pushed.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 23, 2011 08:55PM)
Lobo, your point is taken. humans today can refrain from meat with much less health risks than in the past thanks to modern science. however, its not enough for me to encourage , nor condone, resisting what you actually are.
Anteaters have snouts and long tongues to get the ants. Birds of prey have exceptional vision and aviation. Loons are expert fishers. Homosapien is perhaps the greatest omnivore. bears are good too. don't mess with perfection.
rod
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 23, 2011 08:57PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 21:44, critter wrote:
One thing's for sure:
I'm sure as Hell not going to be [b]shamed[/b] into giving up meat.
When I hear I'm "bad" for doing something that I don't really think is bad it makes me defensive. Being defensive doesn't tend to make me very receptive to whatever point is being pushed.
[/quote]

I imagine that's true of most people on most issues.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 23, 2011 08:59PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 21:55, magicfish wrote:
Lobo, your point is taken. humans today can refrain from meat with much less health risks than in the past thanks to modern science. however, its not enough for me to encourage , nor condone, resisting what you actually are.
Anteaters have snouts and long tongues to get the ants. Birds of prey have exceptional vision and aviation. Loons are expert fishers. Homosapien is perhaps the greatest omnivore. bears are good too. don't mess with perfection.
rod
[/quote]

Among our other fine qualities, though, human beings have an apparently unique ability to engage in self-reflection and contemplation and make choices to define for ourselves who we "actually are."
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 23, 2011 09:01PM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 21:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-03-23 21:44, critter wrote:
One thing's for sure:
I'm sure as Hell not going to be [b]shamed[/b] into giving up meat.
When I hear I'm "bad" for doing something that I don't really think is bad it makes me defensive. Being defensive doesn't tend to make me very receptive to whatever point is being pushed.
[/quote]

I imagine that's true of most people on most issues.
[/quote]

Yeah, probably :)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 23, 2011 09:02PM)
No shame in it, Critter. its what you were made to do. Are there any herbivorous primates? perhaps, but not Homo Sapien.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 24, 2011 12:00AM)
Gorillas. They eat mostly plants with the occasional insect side dish.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 24, 2011 05:04AM)
[quote]
On 2011-03-24 01:00, landmark wrote:
Gorillas. They eat mostly plants with the occasional insect side dish.
[/quote]
youre off on this one, landmark, gorillas most certainly are omnivores. I guess youve never seen them rip apart a live screaming monkey for a snack... I have.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 24, 2011 05:50AM)
They have the ability to eat small animals but no source I've found calls them anything but herbivores. There are many subspecies and some of these may eat small animals, but not as a regular part of their diet.

This Smithsonian source says:
"Gorillas are primarily herbivorous, eating the leaves and stems of herbs, shrubs, and vines. In some areas, they raid farms, eating and trampling crops. They also will eat rotten wood and small animals."

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Primates/Facts/FactSheets/Gorillas/default.cfm
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Mar 24, 2011 09:40AM)
If we are dealing with ethical issues, the actions of other primates are irrelevant. The question is whether we, as rational beings, are justified in our current decisions regarding diet. When we can see alternatives and can foresee their likely consequences, we are faced with an ethical decision.

Gorillas may or may not be able to deliberate on the likely consequences of their choice of what to eat.

John
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Mar 24, 2011 10:11AM)
Thanks for putting it so succinctly, John.

My hormones tell me that I [b]*NEED*[/b] to be intimate with every single attractive woman I ever encounter. That's what I was made to do.

But I resist.

It's an ethical decision, for the most part. The other part is that this particular need is probably not always reciprocated.

:jump:
Message: Posted by: critter (Mar 24, 2011 10:22AM)
I'm not sure I understand the gorrila arguement anyway.
Even if they did only eat insects, well insects are meat. Western culture might be the only one that hasn't yet realized that insects are meat. And I think we'd be a lot better off if we did. I've eaten crickets, ants, larvae, all kinds of bugs. They're pretty tastey.
Back to gorillas, so they only eat a "little bit of small animals"... Well, I only eat a little bit of meat. I have one meat dish a day. I'm no herbivore.
So, based on the information provided, I have no idea how anyone could say they aren't omnivores.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 25, 2011 10:45AM)
Landmark, herbivores only eat plant matter. Carnivores eat only animals. Omnivores eat both. There is no grey area. Gorillas are omnivores. Insects are not plants.
Neither are odd small mammals. ( screaming monkey)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 25, 2011 07:04PM)
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go eat a lean, nutritious, cholesterol-lowering, heart friendly, arctic caribou burger.
Rod