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Topic: Where do I go from here?
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (Apr 30, 2011 03:23PM)
Hi everyone, I have had a lot of success doing hypnosis impromptu around my school and town doing performance hypnosis. I am universally known as the hypnotist now and am doing demonstrations daily for people during my lunch periods in school as well as in the real world on the street, but I really want to start doing stage and large scale shows. My basic question is where do I go from here, like how can I start attracting more attention for venues and making money doing hypnosis on stage? Does anyone have any tips or stories they can give me on how I can start getting more paid gigs doing performance hypnosis?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 30, 2011 04:31PM)
"Paid Gigs"...already? How about learning hypnosis first.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2011 05:40PM)
Then learning a show would be a pretty good idea also. Maybe some sort of training in performance?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Apr 30, 2011 06:07PM)
I read Ormond McGill's book on Thursday and did my first paid show on Saturday. I wouldn't recdommend it, but it can be done.

I would recommend reading a few books on stage stuff and putting together a sensible structure for a show. Then stick to that for the first few.

Best of luck on the journey.

PS I recommend Secrets of Stage and Cabaret Hypnosis by Eddie Burke (www.mreenterprises.co.uk). I have also heard good accounts of Jon Chase's Deeper and Deeper for stage work.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 30, 2011 09:30PM)
Simply put, you're not going to learn to do a true successful stage hypnosis show from just reading a book or two.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 1, 2011 01:18AM)
I have studied a lot though, like I practice skits daily and am always working on new ideas...Thanks for the advice guys, I really want to read Orman McGill's book Tony! Can you post me a link to somewhere I can find it possibly?

Jake
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 1, 2011 09:29AM)
Then you should be just fine.
Message: Posted by: TimonK (May 1, 2011 07:07PM)
Hey Jake!

Is there a possibility that you're a New Zealander? Just your way to write ;)

I started off with doing paid mentalism shows about 3 years or so ago and then incorporated hypnosis more and more until I ended up giving hypnosis shows. The best way to start giving gigs would be to start off at family and friend's events for free. This will give you opportunity to practice a more formal show. Remember thought that family and friends can be a hard audience for a hypnosis show ( as you might know this isn't always the case ). You also mentioned that you do shows in the 'real world' ( to me everything is real world - or is that just my perceiption ;D ?! ) so you should be fine with introducing yourself as a hypnotist to total strangers and still pulling off a successful show.

Anyways, I'd recommend you start with unpaid gigs at family & friends, give out business cards in the 'real world' to people you did a show to or to people who watched - this is always a good way to get gigs. Remember to always be professional, no matter if it's a paid or unpaid gig or if it's the street.
As the others already said, do some study on stage performing, maybe take drama or impro classes, rethorical classes helped me a lot, too. Take any opportunity to be on stage in whatever way ( speeches, etc. ) and you'll get there. As soon as someone calls you from your business card and you offer a paid gig the whole thing will start to roll. Before you start doing paid gigs, be sure you are comfortable on stage and yes, good enough.

You also might want to look up any events ( summer festivals, etc ) that might take place in your city and write to the organisers with an offer of performing there, unpaid or paid.
Being quite young myself I can remember that it was quite hard to get paid gigs started, so I wish you the best of luck! Work steadily and you'll make it.

All the best,

Timon.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 2, 2011 11:37AM)
Thanks for all the advice Timon! I am actually really glad you told me what you did because I have a gig this Friday at a restaurant and I was considering doing a bigger demonstration for my town's arts festival coming up both for free so I know I'm starting off right so far! :)
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 2, 2011 01:40PM)
[quote]
On 2011-04-30 22:30, Mindpro wrote:
Simply put, you're not going to learn to do a true successful stage hypnosis show from just reading a book or two.
[/quote]
Mindpro, I did. I was nearly fifteen years into the journey before I got any training. It might not be an idea route, but it is very possible.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 2, 2011 02:04PM)
Wow that's incredible, I'm only about a year in since I first got a PDF copy of reality is plastic but I've been investing a lot into training materials and watching a lot of YouTube (mainly Tom Silver), since then I've made a name for myself doing hypnosis around town. I am saving right now and about to get a second job at chipotle to afford a spot at the HTG Live event, so I know that will prove to be excellent training!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 2, 2011 05:28PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-02 14:40, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-04-30 22:30, Mindpro wrote:
Simply put, you're not going to learn to do a true successful stage hypnosis show from just reading a book or two.
[/quote]
Mindpro, I did. I was nearly fifteen years into the journey before I got any training. It might not be an idea route, but it is very possible.
[/quote]

I know and understand that as you tell that story here before. I think though this is terrible advice for a newbie. Most newbies will read your entire post above and the part that they will take from it is "it can be done" and "this guy Tony said so 'cause he did it."

The problem I have with this is while it is possible this is not the best advice to offer someone new who is seeking guidance and advice. I believe the vast majority of all newcomers that read that then believe it's doable and encouraged by this statement, when in reality many pf them will only be back on here in days or weeks saying they only had minimal or no success, why, and what can they do to have better results?

To truly help these newbies, I feel it's better to offer them the best, practical, and most reliable sound advice that offers them a true representation and understanding of what they are seeking. Shortcuts always result in future problems of lack of total understanding.

So while it is possible,(so are other things you wouldn't necessarily tell someone to encourage them - yes it's possible to walk on he moon, yes a ten year old could drive a car, yes it's possible to get struck by lightning twice) the real advice is that to get the results they are seeking requires more than reading few books or viewing a dvd. Truth of the matter the average person will not obtain the desired results from simply doing this. In may day I was encouraged to study and learn as much as I could from as many resources as possible. Read books, (nowdays) view dvds, get live hands-on proper training, shadow, intern or assist with a certified professional, and to start with smaller steps and expectations, master them before progressing to the larger, ultimate goals. This is the practical advice that still stands today.

Knowing Ormond personally, I do not believe he ever would have expected anyone to simply read his encyclopedia or other works and consider themselves fully educated and to be a hypnotist. He was a proponent of education, creating and developing your skill set, and real world education and experience.

The other problem is many newcomers think that participating here on the Café and watching YouTube clips are considered proper education.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 2, 2011 06:03PM)
Mindpro, I have seen lots of guys paralysed by overtraining. They study so much and train so much it builds a barrier in their heads, and they never get down to actually working with people. Reading one book and going for it may not be the best approach, but I believe it is better than spending years and thousands on live training.
The middle ground is probably best, but at some point you have to stop training and start doing. And that point is reached a lot quicker than most people realise.
Some of the guys posting here for advice are already hypnotising people, and telling them they need to pull back for months or years more training is not the best advice.
Nothing personal in this; I just believe we need to jump straight in sometimes.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 2, 2011 07:12PM)
Proper training does include the "doing" that you mention and also covers "analysis paralysis." I also believe that many newcomers that are here that think they are already hypnotizing, are not truly in fact doing so, but rather doing related things such as basic response and suggestibility tests that they think are in fact hypnosis, and not truly reaching the suggestible state required to solicit the response they're expecting.

Too often "jumping in" to these guys means simply wanting "to get to the good stuff", without learning the hows and whys.

I don't at all understand how you can tell anyone that getting proper training "is not the best advice".
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 2, 2011 08:22PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-02 20:12, Mindpro wrote:
I also believe that many newcomers that are here that think they are already hypnotizing, are not truly in fact doing so, but rather doing related things such as basic response and suggestibility tests that they think are in fact hypnosis, [/quote]

I believe that applies to most of us.

I am not against training; I just think there is no substitute for getting your hands dirty. In the absense of training trial and error will get you there in the end.

At Anthony Jacquin's training weekend in Dublin recently we went out and tried it on the streets; that was real training. Doing it on each other is not. That's the problem with training. I know two hypnotists over here who have trained extensively but who labour over a stage show. They've overtrained for the job.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 3, 2011 01:38AM)
Tony, I'm a bit confused by your comments. You seem to be equating training with reading books and watching videos. I consider that studying ABOUT hypnosis. And I agree, just studyiing about hypnosis can fill a person with so much information that they can literally become paralyzed with insecurities about what they should actually do.

When I say "training," I mean taking an in-person training with a teacher and other students. Part of the training--perhaps 50% or more—should involve practice with other students as the instructor observes. In this way the student gets his or her "hands dirty" with actual practice on other people. IMO, one of the reasons some students end up wondering if someone was hypnotized is because they've never actually been hypnotized themselves. Being in a training allows a person to experience hypnosis (probably several times).

None of these things can occur from reading books or watching videos. Learning hypnosis can take a few days of training or weeks (or months) of stumbling with books and videos and trying to find people to practice with.

I agree that there is a difference between working with fellow students and going out on the street or stage. But working with compatriots--especially when people are beginning--can give the confidence necessary to be successful on stage or street. A beginner going out on the street can rarely consider himself or herself what Anthony calls 'THE HYPNOTIST." With in-class practice they still may not consider themselves to be on that level, but at least they'll consider themselves to be The Hypnotist rather than a hypnotist.

I realize that there are some people here who read a book and went on to become a great performer. I respect you for that. However, I would respectfully suggest that you are both exceptional and the exception to the rule. For every person who becomes a great performer after reading a book or two there are probably dozens or hundred of people who follow that process and after a few failures (even mixed with some successes) give up.

The problem is an error of logic known as extrapolating the general from the specific. By that I mean the attitude of "This worked for me so it should work for everyone" even though evidence simply does not support that. The people who succeeded after reading one book and want others to follow that pattern are ignoring their own exceptionalism and dooming the majority of eager enthusiasts to failure.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 3, 2011 06:37AM)
Well said.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 3, 2011 04:35PM)
Kraig, you are not wrong. But the thing is these guys are going out hypnotising people anyway, so its too late to urge live training. Advice on where to take what they are already doing, and will continue to do, is what they are looking for.

Also, unless live training has changed drastically from when I began, it just isn't always an option. I saw courses advertised that cost $1,500 for a weekend, and involved travelling. Not only was that not possible, I think it was vastly over-priced, no matter who was carrying out the training.

The only training option I had was a correspondence course that even at the start of my career I knew was fifty years out of date.

Training with books and videos may not be ideal, but for many of us it is the only way we can go.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 3, 2011 05:16PM)
I respectfully disagree, Tony. It's never too late to get training. To say otherwise would be telling someone who is messing up his home trying to fix the plumbing and electric wiring to simply give up because they can never learn properly.

There are all sorts of prices for in-person training, and some, indeed, is quite pricey. However, if someone really want to learn, they can get a second job for a month or two and pack lunches rather than buy them. I just don't buy the "I can't afford it" argument. It says that people are incapable of earning extra money, and I just don't believe it.

Of course, they can also buy books and DVDs, spending a few hundred dollars or more, and then spend months trying to sort things out and still not do a good job. I don't know about you, but I value my time. In reality, the costs of second rate, do-it-yourself training, other than most likely resulting in either failure or abandonment, far exceeds the costs of taking a training.

It all comes down to what people want. If they really want to become good hypnotists, they can earn the money and learn. If they don't really want to learn, they can come up with all sorts of excuses: I'm too young, I can't travel, I don't have the money, I don't have the time, yada, yada, yada. If you really want it you can get it. If you don't really want it you're not going to be a good hypnotist anyway, so do what you want. I'd like to see more great hypnotists because that would challenge current performers to be even better rather than depending on skits that were old when Ormand was just a twinkle in his father's eye.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 3, 2011 08:29PM)
Hi Kraig. I don't know where you are based, but in Ireland to get training means travelling abroad. And if I am going to travel abroad, I am going to bring the kids and make it a holiday. I am not going to shell out exorbatant prices for training.

I've been fifteen years doing shows, and the first opportinity I got to do hypnosis for entertainment training in my country I availed of it. But if I had waited for the training I would have lost fifteen years of doing good solid shows.

Proper training may well be the best option - I am sure I would have eliminated many mistakes - but for those of us not living in the US or the UK, it is not always possible. And to those people, I say go for it.

I was lucky in that a few days before my first show I bumped into a stage hypnotist, Adrian Knight, who was kind enough to explain enough of the basics to get me through that first night. And Barry Sinclair has always been generous with his knowledge. Both men chose to encourage me rather than point out the pitfalls, and when newbies phone me, I remember that and try to tell them as much as I can.
Message: Posted by: TimonK (May 3, 2011 09:17PM)
You're welcome, Jake.


- Timon.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 3, 2011 11:58PM)
Perhaps, Tony, Adrian and Barry were insightful enough to realize you had great potential and give you the training you needed at the time. I have always found that good hypnotists are more than willing to help those who want to learn.

However, we're going to have to just agree to disagree. I contend that if people really want to learn, they'll find a way. If you really wanted to be a doctor and the nearest good school was in Spain, would you abandon your hopes and dreams because it would cost money? I don't think so. If you needed heart surgery and the best surgeon was in Italy, would you say, "I don't have enough money to go there so I'll just sit here and die?" Again, I don't think so. What you're saying is that if someone really wants to learn they can't find a way to get the money to go to a training. Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are lots of good reasons someone can come up with for not going to a training: I'm too young, I can't get the money, people depend on me, I can't travel, It's too far, etc. I'm not saying those reasons aren't all absolutely valid. For many people they are.

What I am saying is that there's another word for "reasons." That other word is "excuses."

It comes down to a simple question: do you want to learn to be a great hypnotist quickly and effectively or not? If you do, you'll find a way to get training. If you don't...well, I'm sure you can come up with lots of valid reasons you can't get to a training.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 4, 2011 04:17AM)
Hi Kraig. I turned up for my first triathlon with my brother's bike, and my father's sneakers. I got to the finish line, but for the next one I did some training. I guess we are all different; I like jumping into things half-prepared and not sure if it will work.

You may be right about reasons being excuses in disguise, but some of them are good excuses!

While I won't quite agree with you, I do respect your viewpoint, and the reasonable way in which you expressed it. All the best. Tony

PS - I don't think Adrian Knight saw talent. He saw a chancer who was going ahead one way or another. That's what I am seeing among some of the newer posters. One way or another they are going ahead. I'm just saying that the other way, while not ideal, might work out for them.

And if training does not seem to them to be an option, perhaps phoning a local hypnotist might be.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 4, 2011 04:29AM)
I agree. Plus now days training are much, much more accessible, affordable and probably better than ever before. There are literally trainings nearly every weekend somewhere. There are associations that offer regular trainings and offer teaching certification to any of it's members resulting in more teachings and more trainings than ever before. Due to the influx trainings can also be more affordable too. Because of this there is really no excuse not to get proper training if someone is legit and serious. In reality, if someone is serious, you could get proper training probably within a couple of weeks from now (or the time of you decision) and be well on your way. Rather than taking weeks or months "playing around" on youtube, books and on your friends.

I remember when you used to have to wait many months or even a year for the training and more than likely travel across the country to attend a training event, or wait for the annual guild convention each year.

It all comes down to the level of interest, seriousness and their commitment. As I have long suspected, to many they just want to learn to do "some cool hypnosis tricks or effects" and are not serious enough to get some money together and attend a training event.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 4, 2011 04:46AM)
Why bother with training? Just go for it. There are a ton of bad hypnotists around why not just join them? The way things are going training is worthless anyway. As the market becomes more saturated by wannabee hypnotists and monkeys willing to work for peanuts or free there really is no point in investing in a career because pretty soon there won't be one.

Just go for it monkey boys. You know it makes sense ask Tony.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 4, 2011 04:58AM)
That does seem to be what they want to hear.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 4, 2011 06:45AM)
MP, we need more bad hypnotists, because they make us look good. It's like why I hang out with fat people; it makes me look slim.

By the way, the only "training" available in Ireland when I began was a correspondence course that the guy wouldn't send you if you wanted to do stage stuff. I still don't see courses every weekend over here.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 4, 2011 07:05AM)
Tony Im not having a go at you. But the truth is the more bad hypnotists around the less booking around. And the ones that are around the fees plumet.

You won't look good because you won't get the chance too it will simply **** up the market if it hasn't already. I know hypnotists even in the states that have stopped doing shows because of all the courses and newbies willing to do shows for next to nothing. One told me its screwed up the market.

I believe him because that's exactly what happened during the height of popularity over here.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (May 4, 2011 08:20AM)
MP, joking aside, I know that the bad guys screw up the pitch for everyone. Barry Sinclair had a bad night about six years ago. The client phoned a radio talk show the following day, the story ran for two days, and business died in Ireland for a whole year. And Barry is not one of the bad ones.

I guess my point is that if we can't stop them (and we know we can't) we should try to steer them in the right direction. We don't really want more of Morgan Stebler's type of efforts passing off as hypnosis. We know several of them won't ever pay for live training, so we should coax them along until they lose interest or get good.

I have noticed that when you get a newbie to join a magic club, he generally stops charging peanuts and begins charging the proper fee. But if you exclude him because he is undercutting everyone, he will continue to spoil the market. I might be wrong, but that's my honest take on it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 4, 2011 01:39PM)
I agree about steering them in the right direction, but them you go and tell them that's it's all possible by only reading a book. That at best is a longshot and bad advice, especially to a very impressionable newbie. I also say if they're not willing to learn properly and be well trained, steer them towards ventriloquism where being a dummy is part of the act, and they can learn fast.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 6, 2011 04:12AM)
LOL. MP talking about bad hypnotists reminds me of his 'impromptu' show posted to youtube. Did you ever get a licence for that show? If not, was it illegal and uninsured? Was it therefore more dangerous than an insured noob?

And anyway, if you can't take the competition, get out of the market. Stop whining about others and do something for yourself. Stop being such a lazy, self-important idiot and get some training; I hear there are marketing and business specialists that can show you how to sell yourself successfully.

HK
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2011 09:37AM)
Yea it is a wonder why anyone would call you arrogant huh? LOL.

I have to say the idea that someone else has any real impact on an established act and what they can get for a show is silly to me. I have never lost a job to another performer, only to myself.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 6, 2011 07:26PM)
Its quite simple Danny the bad acts stopped ALL the bookings not just mine. They didn't steal my gigs they stopped them all together for everybody not just me. The bad hypnotists played in pubs they would never be able to get proper gigs.They had an impact on the market. On the public perception of hypnotists. It was nothing to do with "stage hypnotists" it was to do with idiots who weren't trained properly working for peanuts and causing a ton of problems.

Not only that when every second pub in every town has a hypnotist why would you want to go see one? You would be sick at the thought last thing you would want to see was a hypnotist good or bad.

But that's nothing new it happens in many busineses. Its called lag time. Cash in at the start get out when the copy cats flock like seagulls after the breadcrumbs.

Perhaps you are in a protected bubble where you are. ( infact I know you are like you once said to me there are no openings its all sewn up ) But that was not the case over here. And is still not the case. As for being called arrogant I really don't care. Most on here will never get anywhere near the level of skill or understanding of hypnosis because they will never take the time or spend the money to learn. If that makes me arrogant great. It still doesn't change the fact it happens to be true. If you want to appease the idiots on here then I guess do what you think is right.

Mr Kid I was insured... I can tell you now you are more dangerous than at any time of my career.

But again you miss the point. You have more chance of being sued for negligence the biggest danger is to yourself. But go ahead have fun. Don't let me spoil it after all you have watched at least half of a video on street hypnosis. So of course why would you listen.

Most of the professional hypnotists really don't post here anymore even the ones selling products. It seems that its not even worth selling products on here anymore.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2011 09:27PM)
OH I am in a bubble allright! I like it there I might add. A bubble of my very own creation, but a bubble no less.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 6, 2011 09:36PM)
I have no doubt you worked really hard to create it and really deserve it. But it doesn't work the same everywhere else outside it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2011 09:58PM)
True.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 6, 2011 10:41PM)
This is a heated discussion now...lol...I just wanted to report I had my first restaurant gig tonight and performed a lot of very successful hypnosis which was great. I think I'm moving on the right track slowly but surely, thanks for all the advice guys.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 7, 2011 05:46AM)
Explain your "restaurant gig"? Was it a stage show in a restaurant/lounge or some type of street/strolling performance? All hypnosis or hypnosis with something else? Offer us details...
Message: Posted by: TimonK (May 7, 2011 11:59PM)
Hey magician336!

Congrats, I'm happy that you did the gig and that you're satisfied with it!
I, too, would be interested in more details. Just out of curiosity (:

Best wishes,
Timon.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 8, 2011 01:18AM)
Well I was brought there to do a strolling table hopping situation for them doing primarily magic, but I was doing hypnosis demonstrations in the center of the restaurant and even got somebody into hypnosis successfully by overloading their brain by using the James Brown thought stealer routine as a mentalism piece. The person in charge of running my city's down town events came in and took a few pictures of me hypnotizing poeple and we filmed a lot of what happened. I successfully hypnotized everyone I worked with that night and then moved a block down to an open mic night at a coffee shop and hypnotized someone then hypnostole their hat and did a mini hypnosis show with three participants that I had just met. All and all it was a really good night and I learned a lot from it and daring to push the limits on what I could do with hypnosis, it started a lot of talk in town!
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 9, 2011 05:27AM)
Magician336, well done dude.

mind punisher, does your insurance still apply if you have failed to apply for a license to conduct the show? Did you have a license? Did it require one? Come on, it wasn't that long ago that you appeared to think of yourself as some sort of expert in UK hypnotism laws.

HK
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 9, 2011 05:30AM)
Oh, and Danny :)

I'll work on it.

HK
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 9, 2011 05:46AM)
Magician336,

congratulations. If you can work in such an impromptu fashion with individuals and small groups as well as mix it up with magic then you have achieved far more than you may realise. Well done.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 9, 2011 06:11AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-09 06:27, hypnokid wrote:
Magician336, well done dude.

mind punisher, does your insurance still apply if you have failed to apply for a license to conduct the show? Did you have a license? Did it require one? Come on, it wasn't that long ago that you appeared to think of yourself as some sort of expert in UK hypnotism laws.

HK
[/quote]

We had no objections from the council who were informed by the bar manager. Both the council and the local police were aware since this was a small village and private party. Infact the bar was directly opposite the council hall. And the police station is a few hundred yards up the road. You will find in the sticks they are a lot more relaxed than in large towns. And if you watch the clip you will see I had my skit music so no it wasn't really impromptu. They had known about it for weeks. Although the party didn't know about it. And I had done very little prep and was first hypnosis I had done in quite a few years.

Nothing is really impromtu.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 9, 2011 06:35AM)
"when every second pub in every town has a hypnotist why would you want to go see one?"

Answer: They wouldn't! That IS the point!

But we have had this conversation before, MP and you still fail to get it every time.

Hypnosis has changed! The delivery of hypnosis has changed! The venues for hypnosis have changed!

Now whilst there may still be some stage hypnotists still doing stage gigs, that is not where the main thrust of hypnosis is now taking place any more.

You are still sat all alone in your Music Hall awaiting the return of the crowds whilst the clever people have seen the writing on the wall and taken their act to the masses instead of expecting the masses to come to them.

MP is like King Canute trying to stop the tide, whilst others are using the tide to make power.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 9, 2011 06:41AM)
"Although the party didn't know about it."

:eek: You mean you AMBUSHED them?

Oh MP, I can't begin to tell you how let down I feel.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 9, 2011 06:50AM)
No they volunteered. They came up to the stage. I never approached them. And all the safety procedures were in place including screening. Some did know about it. It was a birthday surprise. I was asked to do it as a favour and gift.

But I don't expect the bandits to know the difference.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 9, 2011 07:29AM)
And the 'bandits' who do know the difference?

What about the 'bandits' who do assess the safety and do ask the screening questions?

Seems your idea to win an argument is to take the worst example and apply it to everyone and than say 'see I told you so!' - The real world doesn't work like that MP.

Shall I take the most dangerous, uninsured, untrained, reckless Stage Hypnotist I can find and then apply it to you and say therefore you are dangerous and shouldn't even be hypnotising people? Only that is what you are trying to do with all 'Street' Hypnotists.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 9, 2011 07:52AM)
Tell you what.. If I show you my insurance certificate for stage hypnosis you give me £50?

The thing is you can say anything you want. but its clear from all your other earlier arguments around the law and insurance you haven't got a clue. You don't even know what the safety giudlines require because you've never even asked for them and they are free.

So If I show you a stage hypnosis insurance certificate in my name which cost me £800 with the reciept will you give me £50 because that's what I want for taking the time to show you.

Put your money where your mouth is.

And also a License is the same as permission from a council. There is no difference. Each council has their own way of dealing with this. In many small villages they hardly do anything or even care.

When I got the License in Edinburgh for last years Festival in a major venue they took six weeks to make up their mind. And only granted permission five hours before the show was due to start. You have no Idea the hoops they made the venue go through. They were more concerned about the venue than me probably because I have a history of licensed shows in Edinburgh. And human nature being what it is they probably didn't really care about the hypnosis they cared about being sued themselves if something went wrong and went overboard on the license application.

But of course you wouldn't know this because youve never applied for a licens or permission. And if you have read some of my posts where hypnotists said they couldn't afford insurance. I have told them to do a few shows and then get insurance as soon as you can. But ofcourse you just bleet out that you are a kareoke peddlar and shouldn't have to pay anymore for hypnosis. And how everything is so unfair in the UK.

Then why don't you go live somewhere else?



The choice of whether you carry insurance or not is your its your risk. Would you drive your car knowingly without insurance or an MOT?

I guess that's your choice...
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 9, 2011 08:39AM)
How typical of you MP - Avoid the questions and just personally attack me.

IT'S NOT ABOUT ME AT ALL!

If I am the most dangerous person to ever walk the planet, it does not in any way address the issues.

What a strange way you have of debating. You seem to think that if you can prove I'm crap that means that your argument about all the people you are complaining about being crap is therefore true.

You seem to shoot off at the mouth and when someone addresses that issue you just ignore that and change it to another issue and then when all else has been exhausted, you fall back on your old 'insurence' argument which itself has been addressed so many times before.

You first go on about safety and the change it to screening and when they are addressed you ignore that and rattle on about insurance. You then make it personal in as much that if I don't have insurance then that somehow addresses everyone and everything you say.

I asked what about the safe ones? (If you don't think that applies to me, wonderful! I can live with that) but what about the safe ones MP? What about the safe ones? (You'll now have to avoid the same question 3 times here alone)

But as your memory of all the other threads is so bad let me remind you of their conclusion:
Having insuranceinsurance does not make a good safe hypnotist.

Insurance is only there if it goes wrong. For when the Hypnotist has not done a good job of everything that he/she needs to. Where that be training, safety, risk assessment, screening. Whereas good Hypnotists should be doing all of that anyway because they want to, not because they have to.

Chances of MP getting it and actually addressing anything: 0%
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 9, 2011 08:40AM)
Why not share the cost with you and hypnokid? that's only £25 each... you sound like you are so sure of yourselves go for it.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 9, 2011 08:43AM)
Shrub I see your back to your old Ranting about **** again. You are a lunatic Pay me £50 if you want to see an insurance certificate probably for the first time. Ill pay you £100 if I can't produce one.

Until then Im just going to ingore your crazy rants like most now do in penny. This is the last time I answer or read any of your posts.

Stick with Kareoke .... A good professional in any business knows about safety guidelines something you can get from any council for free. A professional will always be insured. And if you can't afford it at the start get it when you can. If your not making enough money to get insurance then you can't be that good now can you?

Reply if you want but I will just ignore anything you post from now on.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 9, 2011 09:29AM)
What a way to conduct a debate!

Q.E.D. MP takes his ball and goes home when he can't answer the questions.

"I will just ignore anything you post from now on." You do that with everyone already, how will we tell the difference?

You simply have no argument as you can't address the simplest of questions about it. All you do is rant about people who you selfishly see as taking or affecting your work. Well bad news: The planet doesn't revolve around YOU!

PS what is this rant about seeing your insurance? When did I ever ask to see it or bothered at all as to if you had any? You invent your own little world and then try and impose it on others.

I won't be paying you any money as I never wanted to see your insurance - That is all YOUR idea!

PPS What about the safe ones? - The question goes unanswered but MP yet again.
Message: Posted by: Vincent.Lynch (May 9, 2011 05:21PM)
A lot of insurance salesmen in here. I thought this was a hypnosis forum.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 9, 2011 06:05PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-09 18:21, Vincent.Lynch wrote:
A lot of insurance salesmen in here. I thought this was a hypnosis forum.
[/quote]

Not so sadly, as if there were a lot of them then the competition would beat the prices down to a reasonable level.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 9, 2011 07:17PM)
Does the £50 / £100 deal apply to a copy of your license for the 'impromptu' event? Obviously, I'd expect to see formal dated correspondence from before the gig because we all know that a nod and a wink wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

I didn't ask to see your insurance certificate. I asked if it applied if the gig wasn't licensed.

HK
Message: Posted by: hypnomagic (May 10, 2011 03:22AM)
Dropped into the Café to see if there is any real discussion on hypnosis and performance. Now leaves the Café knowing it's not a place for discussion on hypnosis and performance.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 10, 2011 06:18AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-10 04:22, hypnomagic wrote:
Dropped into the Café to see if there is any real discussion on hypnosis and performance. Now leaves the Café knowing it's not a place for discussion on hypnosis and performance.
[/quote]

Yes this CAN BE a place to discuss exactly that. Just start a thread on what you want to talk about and ignore any talking down to everyone like that are dirt and disrupting every thread on here.

Many of us would love to talk hypnosis with everyone but until they add an ignore function that blanks out trolls like other forums have, we have to put up with people trying to keep hypnotism a closed shop just for themselves by talking down to everyone and disrupting all decent threads.

Still, don't let the troll win. Start a thread on the topic you want to talk about and try to ignore anyone trying to bring down this forum for their own financial gain.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2011 03:14PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-09 07:35, Shrubsole wrote:
"when every second pub in every town has a hypnotist why would you want to go see one?"

Answer: They wouldn't! That IS the point!

But we have had this conversation before, MP and you still fail to get it every time.

Hypnosis has changed! The delivery of hypnosis has changed! The venues for hypnosis have changed!

Now whilst there may still be some stage hypnotists still doing stage gigs, that is not where the main thrust of hypnosis is now taking place any more.

You are still sat all alone in your Music Hall awaiting the return of the crowds whilst the clever people have seen the writing on the wall and taken their act to the masses instead of expecting the masses to come to them.

MP is like King Canute trying to stop the tide, whilst others are using the tide to make power.
[/quote]

Glad I don't live in England. (well lots of reasons for that but anyhow) Crowds still clamour to see a hypnosis show. Big time.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 10, 2011 04:32PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-10 16:14, Dannydoyle wrote:
Glad I don't live in England. (well lots of reasons for that but anyhow) Crowds still clamour to see a hypnosis show. Big time.
[/quote]

That's good to hear! Whilst here there are also millions who don't and so the show goes to them. And they enjoy it.

In business, sitting around waiting for them to come to the business is never a good idea. Going out and taking your business directly to the customer saves a lot of sitting around doing nothing. And a free show can lead to good business. (Well it has done with me - Putting out expensive advertising and cold calling never got much work at all, but turning up and showing people my wares has paid great dividends.)

In these hard times of stagnation many businesses are seeing what else they can be doing instead of sitting around waiting for their old business to hopefully return. (If it ever does)

Plus it's great fun!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2011 04:55PM)
You say about business and such, yet SO few of the ambush hypnotists make any money. So don't tell me it is about business.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 11, 2011 11:08AM)
Thanks all, I will have some performance videos up once I get ahold of the footage from my friends family.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 11, 2011 11:38AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-10 17:55, Dannydoyle wrote:
You say about business and such, yet SO few of the ambush hypnotists make any money. So don't tell me it is about business.
[/quote]

But that is up to the individual. If someone wants to go out every night and never make any money at whatever it is they do, that's up to them.

Personally I have found (may not work for everyone) that instead of the usual advertising, cold calling or even arranging a meeting with the venue owner, I have got many a gig* by showing up where I want to play and doing (what looks like) an impromptu show. (Cut down version not a full show)

*All types of show that I do (Magic, Mentalism and/or hypnosis)

They usually then want more. And that's when the business kicks in. There is nothing better than generating demand before the hard sell. (Just make sure the owner is there and included in the show)

I find this approach gets me lots more work than doing a few bits for just the owner or cold calling and saying 'I'm wonderful, when do you want me?'
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 11, 2011 04:36PM)
Might work in England, but I doubt very much any gig worth working is aquired that way across the pond.
Message: Posted by: bobser (May 11, 2011 08:01PM)
About 7 years ago I did some instant canvassing in a busy area in Southampton. Just walking around restaurants saying I'd arrived in the area and was looking for some work in the area etc etc...

I got lots of 'No's' but I got the couple gigs I was looking for since I read a couple minds, bent keys etc.
here's the funny one though; this two young gentlemen translated to me that their uncle wanted to know if I could: "levitate like the American man".

I smiled at the laughing uncle, and moved some tables before performing a (b-ld-cc-)levitation. So the uncle is now locked in the toilet (seriously) screaming at his nephews that not only is there NO work for me ever, but I "musn't even come into the restaurant ever again!"

Indian uncles, what ARE they like?!
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 12, 2011 05:10AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 17:36, Dannydoyle wrote:
Might work in England, but I doubt very much any gig worth working is aquired that way across the pond.
[/quote]

I guess there are differing standards as to what is "worth working". And to what you would call a professional gig.

I never understood the restaraunt market. I have never known any restaraunt in Edinburgh to employ a magician or hypnotist. And knowing the margins they make in the food can't see how they could afford to.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 12, 2011 05:11AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 17:36, Dannydoyle wrote:
Might work in England, but I doubt very much any gig worth working is aquired that way across the pond.
[/quote]

Obviously Corporate jobs are of course not got that way, but for daily bread and butter jobs in bars, cafés and restaurants (any non-big chain types) it really does work better doing things that way around here.

Corporate gigs I do through agents mostly (or event planers) as there is no place to turn up to impromptu until the actual night. So they work entirely differently.

I do think in this case there are differences between here and corporate, big chain America.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 12, 2011 05:15AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 21:01, bobser wrote:
About 7 years ago I did some instant canvassing in a busy area in Southampton. Just walking around restaurants saying I'd arrived in the area and was looking for some work in the area etc etc...

I got lots of 'No's' but I got the couple gigs I was looking for since I read a couple minds, bent keys etc.
here's the funny one though; this two young gentlemen translated to me that their uncle wanted to know if I could: "levitate like the American man".

I smiled at the laughing uncle, and moved some tables before performing a (b-ld-cc-)levitation. So the uncle is now locked in the toilet (seriously) screaming at his nephews that not only is there NO work for me ever, but I "musn't even come into the restaurant ever again!"

Indian uncles, what ARE they like?!
[/quote]

That's typical! Try and please them and it's not right. A Lose/Lose situation.

You should have said that if you didn't get a gig there you would put a curse on the place. :lol:
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 12, 2011 05:19AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 06:10, mindpunisher wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 17:36, Dannydoyle wrote:
Might work in England, but I doubt very much any gig worth working is aquired that way across the pond.
[/quote]

I guess there are differing standards as to what is "worth working". And to what you would call a professional gig.

I never understood the restaraunt market. I have never known any restaraunt in Edinburgh to employ a magician or hypnotist. And knowing the margins they make in the food can't see how they could afford to.
[/quote]

Ah! The usual look down your nose at everyone else and elect yourself better than everyone.

A typical MP post there! :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 12, 2011 07:06AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 06:19, Shrubsole wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 06:10, mindpunisher wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 17:36, Dannydoyle wrote:
Might work in England, but I doubt very much any gig worth working is aquired that way across the pond.
[/quote]

I guess there are differing standards as to what is "worth working". And to what you would call a professional gig.

I never understood the restaraunt market. I have never known any restaraunt in Edinburgh to employ a magician or hypnotist. And knowing the margins they make in the food can't see how they could afford to.
[/quote]

Ah! The usual look down your nose at everyone else and elect yourself better than everyone.

A typical MP post there! :rolleyes:
[/quote]

Usually yea, but here not so much. Yep tere is a difference in what is worth working. I can't imagine a restaurant that wants hypnotists working. It could happen here, it may happen here, but I have never seen one. Magicians yea, and I guess they fake and do the bs presentations, but outright hypnosis? Not so much.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 12, 2011 07:16AM)
I also can't imagine hypnosis in a restaurant for so many reasons - liability, lack of understanding and public perception, the physicalness of it, and so on. Non-appealing to owners/management as well as the patrons. Just the entire performance environment seems so inappropriate and counterproductive to hypnosis. I've never seen or heard of this but I'm pretty sure if it is happening it simply a magician using hypnosis as a fake premise for a trick, fake hypnosis, or simple suggestibility tests presented as hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 12, 2011 08:09AM)
I have friend who owned a large restaraunt. We ran a business networking group from it. I used to do the odd seminar which included some mentalism. I did it for free since I was trying to help my friend and also it ws a good way to get in front of businesses. However he has since closed the restaraunt. The current climate is making things really tough just now for everybody. Bars are closing down right left and centre etc etc. Last year I contacted a number of the type of venues that I used to when I did hypnosis shows for the ticket money on the door. The ones that had function rooms of 80-250. None of them wanted to even try since the cost of drink in relation to the cost of living means less and less people are going to these types of venues. So an added ticket on top of that would make it even tougher. In fact if you offered to buy the establishments from them they would probably bite your hand off.

In my lifetime I have never seen so many bars and restaraunts close. To the point where I believe its changing our culture and how people socialise over here. Things are changing drastically.

I never understood the restaraunt "market" or ever seen it worthwhile from where I live even for doing magic. Had it been a reasonable market I would have had no qualms giving it ago myself. Nothing to do with looking down on anybody. I just don't see it as viable market. I don't see ANY market. Even during the Edinburgh Festival I don't ever recall any restaraunt that employed a regular magician or mentalist. And certainly no hypnotist since Edinburgh is very strict with regards to safety and licenses. But even so I can't see whay a restaraunt would want a hypnotist. They want to sell food and get you off the premises as quickly as possible to clear the table for the next crowd.

Of course I can only comment on my experience and my part of the world.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 12, 2011 11:27AM)
Actually Mindpro, I did not use any of what you said thank you very much but I do understand what you mean when you say you don't think it is appropriate for restaurant situations. Personally, I used a lot of James Tripps material that I learned from his blog and from his hypnosis without trance package mixed with a few ideas that I myself have been playing with based of what I have seen James Brown do. I just think of it this way, if you are truely the hypnotist then there should be no limit to when and where you can do demonstrations.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 12, 2011 11:34AM)
Were you doing only hypnosis or mixed with something else (magic, mentalism, readings, etc.)? Were/Are you presented or billed as a hypnotist?
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 12, 2011 12:34PM)
I was billed as an entertainer or at least I billed myself as an entertainer then said I am a magician and hypnotist. I basicly used things like card sticks and amnesia to get them in the right state based off what I could get them to feel via Luke Jermay style suggestion that I used earlier in coin routines routines actually (great stuff for indirect suggestability testing). I will say that I very rarely used the full closed eyes trance phenomena except on some of my friend's friends who I met to demonstrate things like full hallucenations (even though those can be done without classic trance too) and all that fun stuff with in the center of the restaurant while everyone watched.
To all hypnotists who want to do hypnosis in a restaurant style setting, I highly recommend using non-trance style hypnosis because it is less "scary" sounding to the restaurant patrons and can easily be done covertly via a "mind game" or as a "card trick" at first then always give a few positive suggestions at the end so that they really feel that meeting you made a real difference. I always start with my coin magic because it is sure fire and you can use the suggestion work mentioned above to see who is really following along on the experience then I move into card routines that are more hypnosis heavy that include outs in case the hypnosis doesn't take. The great thing about hypnosis is that it is very modular, so if the food comes you can stop and they are always left with a very unique experience :)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 12, 2011 02:45PM)
Ah!!! As I suspected. Magic not hypnosis. Hypnosis from a magician's perspective. Thanks for your explanation.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 12, 2011 06:43PM)
And so completes another dismissal by an expert hypnotist.

I'm amazed that they allow anyone other than themselves to post here.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 12, 2011 10:47PM)
I'm glad you finally understand.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 09:39AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 23:47, Mindpro wrote:
I'm glad you finally understand.
[/quote]

The only things that I do fully understand are these:

1. There are a number of self-elected, egotistical, bullies active on this forum.

2. That I won't be bullied off this or any other forum.


Now I'm sure it would be a fascinating study and debate as to what went wrong with these people to make them that way: The constant need to have their ego stroked and need to put themselves above others to gain a fake importance that they don't actually have, but I feel that is not a discussion for a hypnosis forum and should really take place on a forum called "My Big Head And Where It All Went So Tragically Wrong".

Having said that, maybe regression hypnosis may be able to pinpoint the exact time and event in their lives where their needs where not being catered for and so the need to demand power by bullying took over.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 10:23AM)
Bullied? Really? It is now some heroic struggle? Wow a bit self aggrandizing huh? Oh well.

Being told you are wrong is different from being bullied, but you already know that.

See a guy comes here and claims he is doing hypnosis, turns out it is magic and is told so. You then tell the person who tells him that he is a bully.

The question I have is why your deep seeded need for others to accept what it is you do? If YOU are happy, then life goes on well right? I mean I am perfectly happy with what it is I do and could not possibly care less what the band of ambush hypnotists think about it. They don't pay me. So why should you care what a bunch of us think about what it is you do? It should not matter to you! We will probably never get it. That is not the end of the world. It does not infringe on your ability to accost strangers in random pubs and alledgedly hypnotise them. Just keep doing it and the heck with what we think! Don't keep needing our acceptance, and arguing for it. If you want to tilt at windmills, I would suggest that you buy a donkey.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 13, 2011 12:18PM)
What magic methods cause hand sticks and amnesia? Are they different to hypnosis?

HK
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 13, 2011 01:00PM)
As I recall, Kenton Knepper has an effect where a person appears to forget his/her name. Has nothing to do with hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 01:02PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 13:18, hypnokid wrote:
What magic methods cause hand sticks and amnesia? Are they different to hypnosis?

HK
[/quote]

Thank you for your enquiry.

Your question is now in a queue, but I'm sure that a self-elected 'expert' will be along shortly to talk down to you and end up not addressing your question at all.

Thank you for using the old fogey network, please come here again when you next feel like being patronised.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 13, 2011 02:20PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 13:18, hypnokid wrote:
What magic methods cause hand sticks and amnesia? Are they different to hypnosis?

HK
[/quote]

Superglue and a big !@#$ off hammer?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 04:18PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 14:02, Shrubsole wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 13:18, hypnokid wrote:
What magic methods cause hand sticks and amnesia? Are they different to hypnosis?

HK
[/quote]

Thank you for your enquiry.

Your question is now in a queue, but I'm sure that a self-elected 'expert' will be along shortly to talk down to you and end up not addressing your question at all.

Thank you for using the old fogey network, please come here again when you next feel like being patronised.
[/quote]

Wow the guy asked you a very serious question, and you are so interested in the bickering that you don't give him the respect of a direct serious answer. That is not cool man. You ae so wound up in the virtual measuring contest that when a guy comes along and wants to know something you blow it off just for the sake of taking shots at others.

Maybe this is part of the communication problem here. Too much testoserone.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 04:53PM)
Surly in any contest you require more that one person.

How typical of you to single me out and side with the bunch of self-elected experts who talk down to other like they are ****!

Is the moral high ground also decided by you and your posse as well?

Keep it up, as the only ones prolonging it is you lot!

About time we had a separate forum for Street Hypnotists, but I doubt if the 'Experts' could resist a forum where they could talk down to others and demand that they listen to their self electedness.

Still, make it all about me if that fires your twig. I for one will not put up with being talked down to as I'm not here to boost others fragile egos.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 06:04PM)
Again, we have said many times that the amature ambush hypnotists should have their own forum.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 14, 2011 02:17AM)
Ouch, I wish I hadn't posted this topic now...anyway hypnokid, I used some of James Tripp's work to accomplish the hand stick so it was real hypnosis but I explained to them that it was hypnosis and a demonstration beforehand.
Message: Posted by: Ben Field (May 14, 2011 03:44AM)
Hey magician 336, don't be put off by all this, it's a pleasure to read you posts and see what your doing, take the positive stuff from the thread and ignore the rest!! :o)
Message: Posted by: TimonK (May 14, 2011 05:55AM)
Don't be discouraged Jake.
What you're describing other people would probably describe as suggestion-work, a set-piece ( those who read RIP and nothing else ) or waking hypnosis. Most will only accept a full trance as real hypnosis. Those would maybe be the same ones that believe in the trance state ;).

Thoughtfully,

Timon.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 14, 2011 10:22AM)
Thanks guys, Im glad to hear someone is enjoying some of the stuff I have been experimenting with! I did a lot of full trance work last night with a large group outside my favorite local hot spot watching and it was great! I should have some of my footage back from my gig two Fridays ago soon, so I will be sure to post it up once I have everything properly credited and edited to look good. Today is the arts festival in my town, so I am going to go down town and perform a lot today which I'm really excited for! Thanks again for the support and I will keep everyone posted as my journey keeps pushing along!
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 14, 2011 09:05PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 19:04, Dannydoyle wrote:
Again, we have said many times that the amature ambush hypnotists should have their own forum.
[/quote]

What about professional non-stage Hypnotists? Should they get their own forum to?
It would be helpful as none of the so-called experts here seem to know anything about that subject.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2011 10:07PM)
Well they know, you just can't manage to keep up.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 15, 2011 06:49AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-14 23:07, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well they know, you just can't manage to keep up.
[/quote]

No, I think I have exposed what is really going on here and the so-called self elected experts agenda of being as unhelpful as they can to keep it a closed shop for just themselves.

Quite a nasty little bunch of self-important people really. Still, best to ignore now that we know their agenda.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 15, 2011 07:45AM)
I wish you would ignore, because that implies quiet.

I like the way you apply terms you have made up and then try to think they are us. Not even good straw men arguements.

Please do everyone a favor, keep ambushing unsuspecting people in pubs and ignore us.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 15, 2011 11:27AM)
Actually Danny, I was asking you as you appeared to put down hand sticks and amnesia as magic rather than hypnosis.

Care to explain how these can be achieved with magic alone?

Also, why the insistence that all street hypnotists 'ambush'? Again, would you like to be judged by the worst of your industry because I'm sure we can all dream up some slurs if that would suit.

HK
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 15, 2011 12:22PM)
Many would argue that you the ambush hypnotists ARE the worst of the industry LOL.

Ever see the "Electric Chair"? Done WITHOUT HYPNOSIS! Now this is an amazing example of entertainment. Paul Daniels did a WONDERFUL version of it.

I can go on and on, but then again I have been entertaining for 20+ years. If you can't figure these things out, I am sorry.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 16, 2011 04:10AM)
I have an understanding of magic.

I asked specifically about the two things magician336 mentioned and you put down to being magic: hand sticks and amnesia.

To make it easy, I'll also ask magician336 if he used magic or hypnosis to achieve these.

HK
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 16, 2011 09:05AM)
The same methodes used for the "Electric Chair" can be used for hand sticks and amnesia yes. AND ARE! This is my point about knowing history. It was not a shot, it was advice.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 16, 2011 10:21AM)
I used hypnosis to get the hand stick and the amnesia and every other hypnosis related phenomena I had happen. I didn't bill the phenomena as magic, I told them that it was hypnosis and unless asking someone if they want to experience hypnosis then using a handshake induction or a Jacquin power lift(superb induction) then I am not an "ambush" hypnotist. I mean no disrespect to anyone on here, but I am starting to get frustrated by people that are regular posters on here and could offer me the most help being the ones who are against anything I say because I perform magic and hypnosis alongside one another.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 16, 2011 10:48AM)
The one hypnotist I´ve had live training with wasn´t in favour of mixing magic with hypnosis. I didn´t see why at the time, but the more I get into hypnosis, the less I feel like combining it with magic. That´s just my point of view.

Hypnosis isn´t a magic trick and perhaps they think that you are presenting hypnosis this way?
Hypnosis would appear to be a bit more serious than learning how to do a double lift, or palm a card, or vanish a coin etc etc etc. You´re dealing with someones mind, directly. There are potential risks involved, and professional stage hypnotists will have seen a lot of things and had a lot of experiences that you (and I!) have not.

To name a few (I´ve picked these up from reading the forums):

* They´ve probably had to pay insurance (maybe for years and years) and you´re out hypnotizing people without it. This probably puts you in the category of operating irresponsably and perhaps dangerously at least in some peoples book!

* They may have seen people be hypnotized and not wanting to emerge from trance - In a stage show this would happen at the end, and whilst people leave you´d probably sit on and try different techniques to emerge the subject, but if you are in walk around setting then it could really mess up the rest of your evening.

* Do you perform a proper pretalk? Check for "conditions" like bi-polar disorder / schizophrenia / epilepsy etc etc before hypnotizing people? If not, in the eyes of a seasoned, insured professional, you´re more than likely taking unecessary risks and this could result in people associating hypnosis with "bad" things.

I imagine if you´ve read Anthonys Reality Is Plastic then you more or less know how to handle an ab-reaction. But like I´ve been asked in other threads "what are you going to do when someone gets hurt?".

I´m not criticizing you, so don´t take my post as criticism. Most of the guys that seem to be "against" what you say are speaking from years of experience. If you try to put yourself in their shoes, you may see where they are coming from. That doesn´t mean you´ll agree with them, but you might understand them.

Good luck :)
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 16, 2011 11:02AM)
But you completely failed to address the one or ones on here who have publicly posted that they don't like the 'new-wave' of hypnotists as it affect their business and that is why they are as unhelpfully and disruptive as they can be.

And seeing as the ones claiming to be experts say so little, are we just meant to take their word for anything that they do know what they are talking about? (Or not as the case may be)

They seem to do all the deciding: They elect themselves 'an expert' then they decide who isn't one and talk down to them like they have no business being here.

I'll just elect myself an expert shall I? Oh and now I've demoted myself to knowing nothing. And now I'm an Ambusher, Oh wait, now I'm an intermediate... This is fun!
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 16, 2011 11:21AM)
Ownen, I completely agree with some of your points and I have worried about those things before. I always do a good ammount of pretalk with all my subjects about what hypnosis is and how if they have mental or physhical disorders they have to tell me, so I have that base covered at least. So far the most ab reaction ive had (as bad as this is going to sound) was when one gentleman smoked a lot of pot beforehand without telling me and when I left him in trance for about two minuets to talk to the audience he fully fell asleep complete with snoring which was quite funny actually, but we woke him up rather easily.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 16, 2011 11:28AM)
I haven´t addressed that because I don´t see the motivation for them to help the so called "street hypnotists"

Allow me to use an analogy:
If I were a dentist, paid for hire of premises, spent years perfecting my technique, paid for my education, and earned good money. Would you expect me to help out guys who watched a few youtube videos and want to pull teeth for free down at the pub? or who want to do dental work for a fraction of my fee, with no insurance?

Except we´re talking about hypnosis, not dentistry. People know that there are good and bad dentists. Many people have strange ideas regarding hypnosis and may blame things like injuries, ailments or abreactions on hypnosis itself and not necessarily the hypnotist.

Just last week I did a suggestability test with a barmaid and used a coin. She was too tense and the test had next to no chance of working. I should have known better and should have dismissed her instead of testing my work. 5 minutes later she made a mistake when giving a customer his change.
Guess who got the blame - yours truly.

Street hypnosis and stage hypnosis would appear to me to be two completely different animals. Street hypnotists seem to pride themselves on impromptu performances, almost "suprise" performances if you will. Whereas stage hypnotists like to build "response potential" - build expectation, stack the deck in their favour if you like. I don´t expect both parties to see eye to eye if they make no effort.

I´m not saying I´m more in favour of either street or stage. I have a personal preference for performing stage. As hypnotists I would have expected people on these forums to be more open to accepting other peoples opinions, their experiences, their points of view, their preferences etc etc.

Instead what I see is akin to a bunch of girls bi*ching at each other and venting their frustration by posting snotty messages on a public forum, somehow convinced that it matters that they be seen to be correct.

I just posted because I thought I could help magician 336 to understand another point of view. Afterall, isn´t that the mission of this forum, or have we forgotten that gentlemen?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 16, 2011 12:30PM)
Owen, glad to see you're understanding this. It wasn't that long ago you were new here asking many of the same questions. The difference is you took the information offered here as an opportunity to understand and learn from those offering the info. Yes, you're still relatively new and still seeking experience and progress yourself, but the first step is accepting information and taking the time to try to understand it.

You are correct, there is no reason, in my opinion, to ever offer magic and hypnosis. Why add something that is not real to something that is the real thing. As an entertainer you strive for believability and credibility which when you have mastered hypnosis is very rewarding and fantastic. Why would you tarnish that by throwing in tricks, slights or illusions? Once most master hypnosis they don't even want to bring magic into it, they don't want to be known, seen, or affiliated with magic. In many cases they actually try to distance themselves from magic. This is also common for mentalism. As it's long been said, if you see someone trying to combine hypnosis with magic, they really don't know hypnosis.

To Shrubs and others who have yet seem to have the understanding that you do, there is soooooo much good information offered here in this forum that I would have given my left nut for when I was learning. It's just sitting here, for free for the taking, provided by those that had to pay for it or learn it the hard way. I just re-read the first pages of these two top posts and there is some great information even offered here.

The element that I think many are missing is the mindset of a professional entertainer and moreso the mindset of a true hypnotist.

Not liking the new wave of street/impromptu hypnosis has nothing to do with our business or how we perform our shows. It doesn't affect or audiences, draw, attendance, or income other than perhaps being given the wrong perception of what true hypnosis is after seeing a street performance. Here in America I don't belive this impromptu movement is that popular and most wanting to get into performance hypnosis are seeking stage due to it's great performance ability, popularity and fascination with the young and old alike. To say that the stage hypnotists here are unhelpful really shows your ignorance and lack of getting it. I've said it before, but there's an old saying "you can't listen when you are talking so much." Perhaps this is why you're not getting this, learning or understanding the information offered. I guess you can't explain red to a blind person. This is not met as a slam or personal attack just a professional observation (which you probably won't get either).

Although available to all worldwide, I think many forget this is an American-based offering and many of the perceptions, experiences and cultural offerings are based on this fact. Again don't read more into this, just simply making a point as I've noticed many that for whatever reason seem to be offended by the experience and input being offered are either street/impromptu fans, European, or both - again just an observation.

Also don't confuse talking down to someone with stating facts based on experience, observation and professional opinion.

All of these made up terms and perceptions (expert, Ambusher, intermediate, etc.), I'm glad you're having "fun", while others seem to have a genuine interest in leaning, seeking advice and progressing themselves and their skills.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 16, 2011 12:42PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-16 12:28, Owen Mc Ginty wrote:
As hypnotists I would have expected people on these forums to be more open to accepting other peoples opinions, their experiences, their points of view, their preferences etc etc.
[/quote]

Yes, this would seems correct as you explained, but we are not always dealing hypnotist to hypnotist. More often lately it's been Hypnotist to A.) wanna-be hypnotist/enthusiast, B.) amateur, C.) magician or amateur magician, D.) somebody who just recently saw or discovered hypnosis, or E.) someone who has learned to do a few mind tricks, suggestibility tests, or pseudo techniques that mistakenly believe they are hypnotists.

Your statement would be right when we are talking apples to apples and oranges to oranges. But not Kumquat to Watermelon.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 17, 2011 03:39AM)
If you fall in catagories A to D understand you are welcome here and I and many others will do anything we can to help you. Don't rise to the bait of those who could just be arguing in their spare time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 17, 2011 07:07AM)
Fully agree Anthony. On other forums I go to they would be banned for baiting a response by repeated use of derogatory words like "Ambush" to label a whole group.

And you can see that it's run like a little bully gang when one praises another for finally seeing it the bully's way and so accepted into their little gang. How schoolyard is that?

Still, when they expose their whole motives as being financially driven, how can anyone trust what they say? In fact one wonders why they come here as it's not to help those who need it. They seem to only be here to grind people down and put people down until they see it their way or just disrupt every thread to do with impromptu hypnosis. (And now we fully understand why they do that)
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 17, 2011 07:29AM)
"mindset of a true hypnotist" What elitist rubbish! And of course all decided by the elitists themselves.

They go on about Hypnosis not being a trick and being 'real' but then only consider themselves as 'True hypnotists' (What are the other hypnotists, who are really hypnotising people using real hypnosis, doing?)

So again 'true hypnotists' seem to be only the self-elected elite gang and all decided by them based on if you do it their way or not. Do it all their way and stroke their ego and you too may be considered a 'true hypnotists' as defined by them and only them.

Disagree with them and/or don't do it their way and you will never be considered a 'True Hypnotist' even if you are truly hypnotising people.

Elitist pap!
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 17, 2011 12:21PM)
On other forums I go to they would be banned for baiting a response by repeated use of derogatory words like "Elitist" to label a whole group, especially when using it in an insulting way.

On the other hand, you might consider using a different term. An "elite" is simply, " a select group of people with intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes." [wikipedia] So your denunciation of a group of people with specialized training, experience, intellect and wealth as a result of those things is, at best, laughable.
Message: Posted by: Jacob Smith (May 17, 2011 02:12PM)
Thanks guys and Ant I love the link, I grew up and am continuing to grow up on Monty Python!